French Open Day 12 - Will Maja Chwalinska match Raducanu’s title run?

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1:16Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the tennis podcast on day 12 of the French Open, a tournament where we have learned to expect the unexpected and yet the most unexpected thing of all has happened today and absolutely none of us saw it coming. World number 114, Maja Kvelinska, today became the first ever qualifier to reach a Roland Garros final. She's the third lowest ranked major finalist in the open era of women's tennis behind Emma Raducanu and Kim Kleisters, who was unranked when she came back to win the 2009 US Open. And she might, Kvelinska, be everyone's new favourite player. For a story of this magnitude, we have drafted in reinforcements in the form of the Athletics' Charlie Eccleshare.

2:07Matt Roberts: Charlie, you are quite often the guy that sees things coming. I will never forget you picking Marquetta Vondrosheva for the 2023 Wimbledon title when she was the last name on everyone else's list. Did you see Maja Kvalinska coming? I mean, I'd love to pretend I did, but no, I didn't. I mean, I saw her, in fact, in the first round against Junkin Wen. And again, I'd love to say at that point, I said, look out, look out for this qualifier. She is going to take this tournament by storm. But I didn't. I mean, I thought she was like really awkward and, you know, not an opponent that players would relish playing.

2:46But not for a moment did I think, I mean, she would get anything close to this. How could anyone see this coming? I mean, I'm not sure she would have had any sense that this was coming. It's all just fallen into place for her in the most incredible way. And then you watch her and you're like, yeah, I mean, how far can she take this?

3:05Matt Roberts: 7.664 in two hours and 10 minutes. Two lengthy, gruelling sets over Deanna Schneider today. Is that the most fun, David and Matt, that you have had watching a tennis match this week?

3:17David Law: Oh, that's a good question because I've had a lot of fun. I really have. But I think maybe that was the most surprising fun I've had. Not that I didn't think Walenska was good. It's just I didn't think she was that good. I mean, that was a virtuoso performance showcasing everything she's got. And what she's got is creativity and just incredible nerve to go after some of the things she does. And a construction in her mind that's like a sort of snooker player that's four shots ahead. she is reading shots that schneider was gonna hit and setting off towards them before she'd even hit them and and some of her some of her sort of looped deep strokes that she sort of saw bounce and she sort sort of said i'm going into the net just out of the blue and then the ball would come back and schneider hadn't been expecting that and she then just pats away a drop volley winner It was happening time and time again.

4:18David Law: Drop shots, sudden sort of injections of pace, particularly on the backhand side, on her left-handed backhand, which don't look like she's trying to hit the ball hard. And she just strokes it and it just goes away and shocks the opponent for the pace of it. It had everything. She had that crowd in love with her after about 10, 15 minutes, many of whom probably knew nothing about her, let alone how to say a name. And yet, I mean, I say that, there was an extraordinary number of Polish flags in that crowd. I only realised right at the end quite how many because when everybody ends up celebrating, you look around the stadium, you're like, I actually don't think I've seen that many red and white flags or that many of any nationality's flags.

5:05David Law: Maybe Novak Djokovic a couple of times at the Australian Open when everybody's come out for him. But it was really striking. but I think the neutral was just, oh, this player is for us, particularly a French crowd.

5:20Matt Roberts: Matt, including me, how many stat requests have you had this evening pertaining to Maya Kralinska?

5:27Catherine Whitaker: Actually, just you. You'll be surprised. People are not coming to me in the press room for stats. I must confess I went to Opta. I mean, it is their actual job. Yeah, but look, there are a lot of fun ones. Opticum for him. There are a lot of fun ones. I just want to pick up on the point David made about, like, surprising fun, because obviously we're going to talk more about the other semifinal later, but I was at a bit of a low ebb after that one. Like, that was the one today coming into the day that I was really excited for.

5:58Matt Roberts: Matt had had some tough Marco Silva news, and then the first semifinal flamed out, and it was a tough Matt Roberts scene, dear listener.

6:07Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, so that was the one that I was really excited about. I thought was going to be like the best match remaining in the tournament. And then when that was a bit of a dud, I was a bit gutted. And I started watching this second one and immediately I was like, oh, hang on a minute. The rallies in this one are really to my liking. And there were 41 rallies of nine shots or more in the opening set of this match.

6:34David Law: That doesn't happen very often.

6:36Catherine Whitaker: That doesn't happen. And it tells you something about the style of player. Neither of them blessed with huge power, but both have enough power at their disposal to make things awkward for the other player. And I just loved it so much, the way the rallies were constructed. I mean, Hovlinska's drop shot is a thing of beauty mixed in with those higher balls that Davis described. And when she puts the two together, coming in off the high ball and then playing the drop shot or the drop volley is so fun. And, you know, she had this incredible hold of serve at five all in that opening set. Schneider was coming at her, but she just fended it off.

7:23Catherine Whitaker: We were in the press conference. That was amusing. Yeah, yeah. Kept looking over. And the screen was on and I was so distracted. I wanted to make noises. I wanted to hit people next to me, David. But I had to behave myself in the press conference And it was just like, it was in that game, that five-all game, where I think the match just elevated to something so special. The crowd was clearly going with them. And then in the tie break, I want to shout out the drop shot lob combination because the other skill that Havlinska has is anticipation. She reads the game so well and she played this drop shot at 5-4.

8:03Catherine Whitaker: Schneider hits her forehand, but Havlinska's there and she puts the lob over Schneider's head and it lifts her on the way to the set and it was just such joy. It was like a half-volley, the lob. Yes, it was. It was a reaction half-volley. And the look Schneider gave as she realises.

8:22Matt Roberts: It was the look I recognise from someone that's been Siegmunded. I mean, look, Holenska is not Laura Siegmund in lots of very positive ways, but in terms of what she, the distraction she's been driving opponents to and the reaction she elicits in them, which makes me personally laugh in a very sadistic way, it's very similar. Yeah, I thought Schneider actually did well in some respects to deal with it and especially when she lost the first out on the tiebreaker then got broken straight away at the start of the second. It could have ran away from her but actually she came back into it and she played some really good stuff as well.

9:01I think, you know, it wasn't, obviously Felinska had the crowd but Schneider also played with some really nice angles, some really nice touch, really nice feel, more so than I think she sometimes does. I thought she almost raised her level in response. But Felinska, the ability she had, I mean, Chattier, we know, is this enormous core, but she made it feel tiny, like teeny tiny, with her court coverage, her anticipation. In the penultimate game in which she breaks to leave herself serving for the match, Schneider hits this brilliant angled backhand and Felinska's like way out of court, just kind of hoists up a kind of nothingy, it's not a lob, it's just kind of getting the ball back in.

9:43Schneider comes in and she's got the whole of the other side to put the ball into, but she kind of is spooked by everything that's happened before, hits it straight back to Felinska, who then lobs it again and Schneider hits a smash right back to her again because again, she's like, I don't know what to do. Like the sensible thing is to put it into the open space, but she'll probably chase that down, completely got in her head and then she hit two more drop shots to break that game. And I thought that game just kind of summed up the match.

10:08Matt Roberts: I mean, stats-wise, Felinska, I mean, quite often this type of play, you know, with lots of loopy balls and, you know, trademarks of a defensive game, very excellent mover, lots of top spin. Sometimes the stats, you know, the numbers are low on both winners and unforced errors. 31 winners, 17 unforced errors for Rolinska for two sets for the match. I mean, the ratio there is obviously incredible, but the raw numbers as well.

10:41David Law: Yeah, we were in the second set once we'd come out of this press conference where we were... I mean, look, the press conferences were really interesting. I really enjoyed talking to Mir Andreeva and to Marta Kosciuk, but we just could not help have the eye on over to our right where this big screen was. and one or two people were making involuntary noises next to me. Anyway, but when I got back out there and we're in the second set, it did feel really important that Valenska managed to win that first set, but I was waiting for her to get reeled in. I just thought she's going to get reeled in, and then Matt mentioned to me that Schneider's third set record has been extraordinary at this tournament.

11:23David Law: She's been winning all of them. Bagels in her last two matches. Yeah.

11:25Catherine Whitaker: And even in the second set, when she's won in straight sets, the second set has been dominant the entire tournament. Once she's taken control of her match, she's really taken control of it.

11:37David Law: Yeah, but Helinska never really sort of let down. She kind of had the odd one or two wobbles, lost a couple of points, but then just quickly. And I think when you're trying to package a game like hers, that must be really energy sapping to have to keep that up for a long, long period of time. It's not like just having a big forehand that you just keep smacking about. You've got to constantly be putting these combinations together and she kept it up.

12:06Matt Roberts: And she seems to be a bit ill. Yeah, she didn't sound great, did she? No, she... Sounds like she lost her voice almost. Yeah, she was blowing her nose a lot during the match and then in the press conference afterwards she was very croaky and coughing a little bit. But against Callan Scar as well, I thought, because she lost a big first set lead and I kind of thought, I keep waiting for the spell to be broken and it just hasn't been. Yeah, and I guess then by extension, will it be against Andreeva? And that is kind of my sense, but I thought that today. I mean, I think it's natural to assume a player outside the top 100 will eventually kind of come crashing back down to earth.

12:41Matt Roberts: On the list of the five lowest ranked WTA players to ever reach a major final in the open era, all five of them won that final. I mean, it is largely anomalies on that list, like Kleist just being unranked because she was coming back from having a baby. The Serena Williams 2007 Australian Open is in there. Sloane Stephens is in there. I mean, Emberetta Khan, who is the most obvious parallel with Maya Filinska, but all five did win. Is there not Serena 2018 Wimbledon, or is there a protected ranking that kind of screws that? She's not on the list I have in front of me. That was one I was given, because I think she was 100 and something.

13:25Right. But it might be a protected ranking message that up. And obviously she didn't win that final.

13:32Matt Roberts: Okay. But I think that is really interesting, even if she, depending on where she's classified, clearly the vast majority do go on and win.

13:39Catherine Whitaker: And even just off the top of my head in the men's, Goran. Yeah. Mark Edmondson was very low-ranked when he won the Australian Open. So, yeah, maybe there's something in that.

13:50David Law: I do think it helps that you haven't come into the tournament with expectations. And you have not had time to process all of this. Even on the court, when she was told you've just reached the final, she couldn't process it. And it's almost better that she doesn't, I feel.

14:08Matt Roberts: And I think she knows that.

14:09David Law: Yeah.

14:10Matt Roberts: Right? She keeps saying, oh, you know, ask me next week and I'll be able to give you some good quotes about what all this is and what it's meant and how I've dealt with it. But she's like, right now I'm just existing in it and trying not to think about it too much. She's very interesting in the press conference room, I think. Like, she's really likeable, but she's definitely not a people pleaser, is she? No. She's like, she's not fawning or sort of trying to ingratiate herself with the media at all. No, she didn't seem like, wow, I'm so kind of lucky and happy to be here. It was kind of business as usual.

14:47Like it was the kind of press conference that you'd expect someone who's kind of a veteran at being at those. You know, it was just...

14:55Matt Roberts: Like a Shvantec press conference. Yeah, a little bit. You could certainly see it made sense that they're good mates. But like, I just don't understand how you're able to be that blinkered and block out the fact that like this utterly crazy thing is happening. How do you not just suddenly wake up and realise where you are? I did think or wonder if today might be a bit different because her on-court interview had been markedly different, I thought, in terms of the level of emotion and realisation of what was happening to previous rounds. It did feel like, OK, this is really quite big now, isn't it?

15:35Matt Roberts: But that's when you're totally caught up in the moment and Julianne Beneteau standing in front of you. And she did say, didn't she, how sort of knackered she felt? Yes, and she did seem exhausted and impressed, didn't she? Yeah, which might, as I said, it might just be you let your guard down and you let it all out. But I do wonder what that looks like in a couple of days' time. But then she played yesterday, didn't she? True. Yeah, yeah, that's true. These two were the side of the draw that only had one day's rest. And not only is that sort of difficult from the only having one day's rest point of view, but also I just think that's really tough from a like totally changing the cadence of what you've been used to for 11 days yeah unless it helps in the it means there's less time to stop and think about where you are that's where I'd be a little concerned about the final because of the

16:24David Law: set piece nature of it the fact that it's so grand and the interactive dance beforehand we've seen a little bit of a rehearsal on the court there I have anyway the reason we're

16:35Matt Roberts: Recording where we are is because some rehearsing interpretive dances are preventing us from being on chatry.

16:41David Law: Nice though it was. We couldn't clash with that music. But, you know, it is two days, and it's quite a job to try to avoid all the shenanigans that are going on because, like I said, the number of Polish flags in that stadium, you can only imagine the messages she's getting. and all sorts.

17:03Matt Roberts: I really do think she's captured something here in Paris. I came for little walks, my back was hurting, and I was by the deck chairs watching on the big screen at Match Point. And I know everyone loves an underdog, and that can account for some of it, but they were cheering for her like she was a French player. It's like the spirit of Lois Boisson from last year has found a new host.

17:30David Law: And they love the creativity as well here, don't they? Absolutely.

17:33Matt Roberts: It's a similar type of game, potentially more deadly. And there's the Russian element too. We'll come on to that in part two when we talk about Andreeva and look ahead to the final. But I think she's going to have French player-esque support on Saturday. I really do.

17:50Catherine Whitaker: Yes, I think it's a tougher final for Andreeva than Schneider would have been. I agree. Because of the more awkward game style, the crowd support, the expectation that, God, I'm in a first grandstand final and I'm playing a qualifier. This is a massive chance. I'm supposed to win. I'm supposed to win. I do think there's a chance that Winska is so tired and maybe a bit overwhelmed. I do think that is possible. But if she can get into the match, I definitely think she can make it awkward for Andrava and uncomfortable in a way that I'm not sure Schneider, who is obviously so friendly with Andreva, I'm not sure that that would have happened in that match.

18:37And continuing the Boisson analogy, I mean, we will remember what happened with Andreva against Boisson last year. And I thought that that was Kostiuk's chance, which obviously we'll get onto, but in the second set when she did rally and the crowd were getting on Andreva's case just a little bit, or certainly they were rooting big time for Kostiuk. Like, if that's happening again on Saturday, first-hand final match, you should absolutely be winning. What a huge opportunity. And the crowd start getting on your case. I think that could, you know, bring back those memories of that Boisson match last year.

19:08Matt Roberts: Do we know if Valentina even has an agent? Like, I mean, presumably she's got some, but, you know, she's suddenly, she's got, as you would expect, patches now, sponsor patches on her kit. She doesn't have a kit sponsor. She's wearing different kit every round still, whether that will be the case on Saturday, I don't know. But, like, you'd hope that someone, there's somebody that she can trust that has come along and dealing with all these things because she obviously wants to stay in her bubble, right, as she described it. But, like, you can want to stay in your bubble, but there are, like, practical things, like media demands and sponsor demands and trying to find a hotel room, you know, to take you out of that bubble.

19:50There was someone in the press conference, wasn't there? I don't know who that was

19:54Matt Roberts: but there's always you know man in corner yeah what do they do and someone's phone did keep going off and I was like is that someone to do with that just getting like loads of demands yeah I mean how many patches do we think she'll have on Saturday as many as she's alive I mean

20:14David Law: make the most of it I'd say Christian Rude style and any team members I mean

20:21Catherine Whitaker: I mean, it is crazy. You know, David and I are walking out of the stadium talking about it. Like, I genuinely thought I would never in my lifetime see a qualifier win a Grand Slam again after Raducanu, right? And look, she might not win. But the fact that we've got this close is blowing my mind. And I remember so strongly the feeling at that US Open in 2021 that Raducanu won being like, I watch tennis all the time. I think about tennis all the time. I read about tennis all the time. And I had no idea that it was going to play out like this. And I've got that feeling again. It, like, really, really humbles you.

21:07Catherine Whitaker: And it allows you to, like, open your mind to, like... You never know. Exactly. Just imagine. It's that. It's like, this is how David lives every day. I always think this stuff can happen. And this is vindication. It's so fun when you just think, what might happen? Like, it's such a fun place to be. But that's what's so weird about it. And I asked tonight about it. Like, literally yesterday, she beat the world number one with a bagel set in the third set. Yes. A day later, she's losing to the world number 114. And, like... The whiplash there. Yeah. But just by extension, are there, like, tons of other players who, if they caught, could have this kind of run.

21:49Catherine Whitaker: And I think that's why this run of Havlinska might be more inspiring to players than Raducanu's because Raducanu was so young, and I know she'd had that Wimbledon, so people were tracking her talent and everything, but it was the unknown of Raducanu that made it so special. Havlinska's lost 10 times in qualifying at Grand Slams. like we all thought those who knew her would have thought oh i know that player's level yeah you know she's she's been it's been around like she's played a reasonable amount she'd won two tour level matches on clay in her career prior to this and it wasn't just because she hasn't been playing you know she's she's just not been able to get to this level but this kind of breakthrough i it's on the one hand you don't want to say it's an inspiration because I think it's really hard to do.

22:46Catherine Whitaker: Like, we can't expect this. That's what makes it so special. But I hope that players do look at this and think, as David would think, you never know. Just imagine. Why not me, kind of thing. I hope that that sort of momentum can catch on for people.

23:04Matt Roberts: I do love that suddenly, what little past footage of Mike Walenska that there is in the world is suddenly coming to the surface as it does. Particularly one bit. Yeah, well, there's one, somebody on the barge has realised that, so Maja Felinska has one Grand Slam main draw victory to her name prior to this tournament. Wimbledon. Wimbledon 2022. She beat Katerina Siniarkova and somebody on the barge was there at courtside. It was on, you know, it was practically in the car park and they were there to watch Katerina Siniarkova and they got a photo of the handshake. And obviously Maja Felinska's in that, but they weren't there to take a photo of Maja Walinska.

23:44Matt Roberts: And then there is also some absolutely majestic footage that has emerged of Walinska, have you seen this, Charlie, playing Coco Vanderwey in Wimbledon Quallies?

23:54David Law: It's just epic. No. It's so wonderful. I've seen the Sviantec speech at the Junior Australian Open.

24:00Matt Roberts: Yes, that's lovely. And some footage of Walinska icing Sviantec's head during a particularly gruelling United Cup match. Felinska's been a non-playing member of multiple Polish United Cup and Billie Jean King Cup teams. But yes, the Coco van der Wey, Wimbledon qualifying footage is essential viewing. So what's happening in there? Oh, Felinska hits a completely legitimate body shot volley. It's pretty vicious. It's pretty vicious, but at one other point. She apologised.

24:35David Law: It's the sort of thing you see all the time. It's actually a mid-court sort of forehand. She rifles it straight at her and she holds her racket up but actually hits van der Wey in the shoulder. And van der Wey turns around and goes, that is so messed up. That is just so messed up.

24:52Matt Roberts: You're a pathetic player.

24:53David Law: Yeah, she goes, you're a pathetic player. She goes, just eat it. She goes like this. And then Walenska hits her forehand out on the next point and van der Wey goes, yeah, karma, baby. and the next thing you know is whoever's edited it cuts to the handshake which valinska wins and i mean it's just the classic vanderwey no look and walk on it's amazing check this out and valinska's like saying sorry sorry you know she's trying to be really she's very graceful and and vanderwey is just well being found away yeah incredible stuff

25:32Matt Roberts: I think we've reached the end of the road of what we can talk about with Felinska before we address who she's going to play in the final on Saturday. So join us in part two and we'll talk about Mira and Drover.

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29:01Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast. on to the second semi-final, which was the first semi-final of the day. But the second one we're going to talk about because frankly, as a match, it was nothing compared to the Schneider-Frelinska match, nothing compared to what we were hoping for and expecting from this matchup. Mira Androva beating Marta Kostjic 6-1, 6-3 in an hour and 16 minutes. Debate has been raging all day, Charlie, on our tennis podcast group chat about how much this was down to Mir Andreeva being excellent today and how much this was down to a pretty horrible performance from Marta Kostiuk.

29:44Yeah, I mean, I think Andreeva handled the conditions really well and her backhand was really good. She didn't look like she was particularly bothered by the conditions, by the wind, whereas Kostiuk looked so ragged. Her forehand kept misfiring. so I kind of find it tricky to separate those two things I don't think Andreeva was like absolutely lights out or anything like that but I think she was really solid and basically did all the things that Kostiuk didn't because Kostiuk was so erratic

30:15Matt Roberts: and it's easier to be good when you're not feeling under any pressure right like I think you know playing well and playing badly they don't ever happen in a vacuum but there's no getting away from the fact that this was not the match that Marta Kozczyk wanted to play today at all?

30:33Catherine Whitaker: No, and it wasn't the match that she's been playing, you know? Like, her level has been so good for so long now, I guess I had let my guard down a little bit and didn't see this kind of performance coming from her, given the way she's won Madrid in the build-up and the way she's beaten Sviontek and Svitolino. I just trusted her to really show up on this stage. Perhaps that was unfair because Grand Sam semifinals are massive occasions and it was windy and the conditions were tricky. But she lost for serve in the opening game, didn't she? And that was a bit of an alarm bell. But then she had Love 40 immediately on Andreva's serve.

31:18Catherine Whitaker: And I thought, OK, they're both nervous here. This has been a bit of a slow start from them both. But when Andreva held that game, I think it helped her free up and it just kept Kostiuk in the nerve zone of, oh, I haven't got a game on the board, I'm not feeling the ball today. And it's hard when Andreva is in that mode to break through her. You know, she moves so well, she can change direction, she can be a bit of a wall, but she can also attack. She's a really hard player to face when you're not feeling well. She's got a lot of variety as well. She doesn't give you necessarily all the rhythm.

31:53Catherine Whitaker: And yeah, I thought Kostiuk and she said it in the press conference that she started pulling the trigger a bit too soon in rallies and she just got a bit ragged and it just got away from her. But, you know, I just wasn't what I was expecting. I really thought this was going to be a close right to the end. But B, I thought it'd be really high quality as well. And they'd both play well. So I was just I was just caught out by it. I had my expectations really high, and it was a bit of a dud, really.

32:26Matt Roberts: Matt had over-snacked for this match big time. Yeah, I thought that as well. I was like, settle in. You're home for the next three hours. And then after like an hour, I was like, oh, this is done, isn't it? It's amazing how, I mean, I'm sort of always caught out a bit by how good Mirandreva's serve is. It is such a weapon. Absolutely. And it wasn't diminished by the wind. You know, we were talking, was it yesterday, day before, sometime in the recent past about how roof closures tend to benefit big servers because, you know, perfect conditions for your big serve. She's got a fairly low toss. And in those very windy conditions, her serve continued consistently to be just a huge, huge weapon.

33:13Yeah, and the only period where she was in any sort of peril was when the roof closed. I mean, it's a slightly surreal thing where the roof suddenly was closing and then she lost a couple of games.

33:22Matt Roberts: If anybody would like to see Matt Roberts' expression at that exact moment when the roof began closing during bright sunlight, it's available on our Instagram. And it's worth a look. Yeah, I mean, I did feel that potentially they were vindicated.

33:39Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, the rain did then come. It did rain. It did come. And before the end of the match. It did.

33:43Matt Roberts: I don't believe that on clay, with the speed with which the roof can close, they need to operate a preventative policy with the roof here.

33:50Catherine Whitaker: I tend to agree. Personally. I think they were a bit too trigger happy with it. I think you can almost start doing that as soon as the first drops appear, especially on clay, as you say. But, yeah, the rain did come. It wasn't like the other days where they've shut the roof and there's been no rain at all. And given the disparity in how they were handling the conditions in that moment, and at this moment, Andrava didn't know that it was going to start heavily raining in three games time.

34:22Matt Roberts: At this moment, it's sunny outside. You know, you can see the shots of sunlight around the place. She is so clearly handling the conditions way better than her opponent. I mean, I would have felt I would have been stomping my feet and thinking I'm being sabotaged. and she's 19 and, you know, she clearly was having feelings about it. And there is a version of Mirandreva that would have dealt with those feelings differently not that long ago, I think.

34:48Catherine Whitaker: And she said, I told myself to accept everything that happened on the court because it felt like today was a day when anything could happen. And that's also, I think, the kind of mentality you've needed to get through this tournament because it's been a tournament where they've had to deal with so many different weather conditions and the mayhem and chaos of the draw and not let that affect you. I think this is a real growth, mindset-wise, for Mandrava.

35:15David Law: Yeah, there's a real change in her to me. I haven't seen that much of her over the course of the tournament. I haven't actually been in any of her press conferences this week, which I normally loved her press conferences. And Russell Fuller on BBC Radio tonight said to me during the commentary, you know when she first came on the scene she was in love with Andy Murray and she was always saying things that funny things in the press conferences and and I was thinking she still says funny things she's still playful and we came into this press conference today and I thought oh my word she's been media trained you know it was suddenly totally different I mean it was still very pleasant she's got a lovely demeanor about her she's really good with the media but she was saying all the right things you know and and i think kind of fair enough in as much as she's got to find a way to kick this habit of just derailing and and what she was saying and it sounded like she's she's had a good lot of speaking to and and has been able to figure it out is i've just i've just got to move on and accept things and and like maybe i'll maybe i'll break her next time you know if She's broken me.

36:28David Law: It felt very different to me. And it is interesting in this match and against Castella, second set, she gives up a break and you're thinking, okay, we're back on terms. Is this the start of the unravelling or the comeback? She just stomps it out straight away and breaks herself. And I do think if Kosciuk, which she'll have many regrets, but she got it back to 4-3 and on serve in the second set. The roof's just closed. As you say, Catherine, it's possible that Andreeva's about to start feeling a bit hard done by, understandably. And Kostiuk comes out and hits a double fault to go down love 15. And you could just feel the energy kind of left the room and she then gets broken and Andreeva serves it out and doesn't win another game.

37:07But it did feel like she needed to ride that momentum and finally get into the match.

37:12Matt Roberts: I don't know quite what I was expecting from Kostiuk in press, but definitely not what we got, which was a totally okay Marta Kostiuk that it seemed to already have rationalised what had happened there. And look, I know that she's an incredibly well-adjusted human being and tennis player with great perspective on life. She's been through a lot of therapy and been through a lot more in life than most tennis players ever do, most people ever do. Still, though, I was jaw on the floor about how well she seemed to have processed what happened today, not necessarily the result, but how poor her performance was relative to what she's shown that she is capable of.

37:58Yeah, it's interesting because yesterday I was saying to Matt Futterman, I was like, with Sabalenka, I was like, God, I totally can relate to how Sabalenka's feeling right now. She is just pissed off and can't hide it. And I was like, I can really empathise with that. And so Matt to me was like, oh, so can you not empathise today? I was like, oh, and so Kostiuk was so, kind of took it so well. Can you not relate to that? I was like, I can't also relate to that because I think I'm not like always going to be sulky and petulant. In some instances, I can understand that. And I would be. I actually do think in this case, I wasn't so surprised by Kostrup because I do think she was able to be like to take a step back, which admittedly isn't always easy, but she's had a great tournament and a great clay court season.

38:43I do think she can recognise that this has been a breakthrough period and she's lost to a high-ranked player, a really good player. It wasn't like she came out, suddenly it's this land of opportunity and she's lost to a qualifier or she's lost to a player ranked way lower than her. Like, I don't know. I think it's still been the best period of her career by some way. And I think, yes, it does take a level of maturity and perspective to see that. But that's where I think her sort of level-headedness was coming from.

39:16Matt Roberts: She suddenly wanted to talk about the streak, didn't she? Every press conference up till now, it's been like, it doesn't mean anything. The streak doesn't mean anything. Doesn't mean I'm unbeatable today. It was like, let's talk about my big streak, guys.

39:27Catherine Whitaker: She said, I'll take it with me to the grave. And I loved as well when she said, I changed first and then the streak came. rather than the street change me. And I think that's kind of what you're getting at. Like, I think she is okay with this because I think she's got other shots and she feels like she belongs at that kind of level now. And she's done the work. You know, she's put in the work in terms of her mindset and off court and on court to make her this person and this player now. And I think, okay, this was a tough day, but I think she'll back herself if and when she gets there again. Bear in mind as well, she had a really bad Ronan Garros record.

40:11I think she referenced that in the presser as well, didn't she? Exactly, and I interviewed her just before the tournament and we were talking about it. I was like, you know, your prospects are going in. She was like, I've had a bit of a love-hate relationship. She was like, I love Paris, but my record there has been really bad. So I do think to get to a semi-final is such enormous progress that, yeah, again, I think with that perspective, she can see the positives.

40:34David Law: And just to let our listeners a little bit behind the curtain of how all this works, this conversation in the press conference room did happen a good hour and a half after the match finished. So sometimes players are able to process it and get their sadness out of their system.

40:55Matt Roberts: And we know she's got two dogs backstage.

40:57David Law: Exactly.

40:58Matt Roberts: It helps. Will Marta Kosciuk qualify for the WTA finals? She is currently...

41:05David Law: I have no idea where she is. And yet I'm sure she will.

41:09Catherine Whitaker: Will Maja Hovlinska qualify for the WTA finals? I'm going to say no.

41:14Matt Roberts: Well, if she wins on Saturday, she only has to be top 20. So Marta Kostiuk is currently seventh in the race, just ahead of Karolina Mukova and quite ahead of Victoria Mboko in ninth. Igor Svantec is in 11th. so I'd back her to finish above Mukhova I have to say I mean I love Mukhova but I just with the fitness record I would back Kostiuk to be able to play a lot more events not that it matters as well for the race but she pointed out to me when we spoke she's basically got no points to defend between now and Canada I think she had a really bad this chunk of the season last year so she's in a pretty nice position

41:56David Law: to me she can play on any surface and now that she's moved to another level, I think she's going to make it quite comfortably.

42:06Matt Roberts: She's headed to Queens now, isn't she? She's committed to playing a full grass court season. In terms of Mirand Draver's press conference, just to go back to that, there was one great line which a journalist picked up on and sort of re-asked her about. I think it was Katie Smith that you work with on BBC Radio, David, about how she described being so locked in, both in this match and in her semi-final that she could see the hairs on the ball. That was amazing. Yeah. It was Charlotte Harper with the follow-up. Oh, sorry, yeah, it was Charlotte. I couldn't see. You was right at the back, yeah. I was just hearing a voice.

42:42Matt Roberts: Charlotte Harper of The Athletic. It was like, what is that Bradley Cooper film where he takes the drugs and it makes him see everything in technicolour?

42:54David Law: Yes, what is that called? Limit. Limitless What are you saying about me or Andreva?

42:59Matt Roberts: But it was That was what popped into my mind When she described that

43:03David Law: It's an incredibly vivid visual Image isn't it Because I've never I've looked at tennis balls But I've never thought Quite a lot actually But I also think that that is part of Whether it's therapy or sports psychology Or whatever it is To break down the sport into the most granular detail possible. Not just the ball that I'm going to keep my eye on, the hairs on the ball. That clears your mind of all the crap that you might think about that might get you ranting at Ganchita Martinez.

43:38Matt Roberts: Ganchita Martinez popped up on the screen, didn't she? She was out there scouting for Mira Andreeva's final opponent and then Andreeva was asked about the potential of facing Flinska. Obviously, it wasn't determined who she'd be facing at that point. She'd already had a Schneider question. So then I think it was the Polish journalist that got in with the question about Walenska. And we will have time and opportunity, the three of us, to preview the women's final tomorrow. So I'm going to go to Charlie on this. I was slightly worried by Mirandre Vizanska about Walenska, about how she didn't say, oh, I've seen a bit of her play over the fortnight or I caught a bit of her semifinal match.

44:21Matt Roberts: She was like, haven't seen her play at all, don't know anything about her game, cross that bridge when I come to it. And I know, you know, Martinez was out there. I know they will now, you know, embark upon a full strategy and she'll come as well prepared as she can. But I'm a bit worried that even so, it's going to be a bit of a shock to her system. Yeah, and it was interesting hearing Schneider saying that she, they basically couldn't find footage of her playing a lefty. Yeah, all you can find is footage of her and Coco van der Waes. Exactly. We've exhausted the Coco Van Awe stuff. Can we find a player?

44:54We're going to wear that footage out. I thought, Catherine, you asked a good question to Dana Schneider about whether would she act as a sort of scout for Andreeva and kind of say to her, this is what it's like playing her. Because you'd think that would be invaluable.

45:12Matt Roberts: And she kind of said, yeah, if she asks. Surely she would. I got the impression that, yes, I think that would be useful because I wouldn't presume to volunteer it if she doesn't want it. But hey, this is a pretty unique experience playing this person. And I was prepared today and it still was a shock to me. So I think you can use all the intel that you can get. Yeah, the implication was I wish I'd had someone I could ask. Yeah. And look, it's different for Schneider because she's a lefty. And I followed up and said, could you share what the advice, what the tips would be? And she said, yeah, tell her to come into the net, especially given the serve that Andreeva has.

45:49That was interesting, by the way, because I did think watching it, that Felinska was doing that quite cleverly. She was anticipating when Schneider was going to try just looping shots up herself and she was sneaking into the net, kind of like you described earlier, David. But yeah, I did think Schneider needed to do a bit of that herself. Just to keep her honest as well, to say you can't just loop up balls all the time because occasionally I'm going to sneak in and pick them off.

46:13Catherine Whitaker: yeah I think Andreva game-wise is quite well set up to handle the game but I did also think that about her against Lois Poisson last year so what the hell do I know but I just think you know she's got the hands she's got variety herself she's happy taking the backhand down the line she is quite comfortable coming forward she does have a big serve at times there's a lot there that I think she can use at her disposal. But Grand Slam final, crowds, it could get messy.

46:49Matt Roberts: It's kind of, I'm really into this final.

46:53Catherine Whitaker: Yeah.

46:53Matt Roberts: Really, really into it. I don't think it's going to be a, you know, on paper, if you'd said before the tournament, it's going to be established top 10 player who's, okay, not been in a slam final, but been at the latter stages of slams before, you know, big experience deficit it against a qualifier who has you know the potential to freeze i'd have been like okay that sounds you know potentially a tough scene i i don't know i don't feel that way about saturday no i don't think so did any part of you because i love this match today i wouldn't have changed it for anything schneider klinska but a part of me did just wonder what would how would sabalenka have coped with this.

47:35Obviously the roof was on, so that would have been a big equaliser, but even just a few games, I would love to have seen that. Just how mad that might have driven Savalenka, trying to deal with those loopy top-spinny shots.

47:48Matt Roberts: We saw Savalenka Siegmund at Wimbledon last year. And Kowalinska here is better than Siegmund. Or certainly this tournament here. We don't have enough of a sample size.

48:01Catherine Whitaker: I wasn't thinking about that, but now I am. can they just set that up as like an exhibition can i just also mention i think it was in the

48:10David Law: androva match when i was commentating on it um i blank a bit sometimes when i'm commentating so i don't make the notes in the same way as i do when i'm watching in the press box but there was uh there was one point when she played a lob followed by drop shot followed by another lob and i and i I just loved it. It's creamy stuff.

48:31Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. She's very good at her own point construction, snooker style, being a shot ahead. She's got that quality as well, Andreva.

48:40Matt Roberts: Yeah. OK, that's for Saturday. We'll have another look ahead to it tomorrow. Join us in part three for a look ahead to the men's singles semifinals coming up tomorrow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.

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50:09Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of today's tennis podcast. Just before we move on to talk about tomorrow's order of play and award, Miss Katera of the Day, essentially. The mixed doubles final was played first on court Philippe Châtrier today. And of course, Sararani and Andrea Vavasori were victorious. They defended their title from last year, beating Gabby Dabrowski and Evan King in dramatic style. One on the Sararani serve. 4-6, 6-3, 10-4. Should clarify, not an ace. It required an Andrea Vavasori put away. They are absolutely remarkable, the way that he sort of... The covers up is harsh, but the way his talents...

50:56Matt Roberts: Assists. Yeah. Bounces off. They're a jigsaw puzzle. It's beautiful to watch.

51:02David Law: Still doing the headbutt celebration.

51:04Matt Roberts: It's brilliant. It's awesome. And there was a decent crowd in for it, and their winning just reminds me that we now know there's going to be a format change to the US Open mixed doubles where they are, of course, the defending champions this year. And there's now going to be a qualifying event on the Monday with the mixed doubles as it was last year to start on the Tuesday and conclude on the Wednesday evening. Now, they haven't announced this, but I rather suspect it'll be the doubles teams in qualifying. That was my assumption.

51:36Catherine Whitaker: Yeah.

51:36Matt Roberts: So they're like, we're giving you an opportunity, but...

51:39Catherine Whitaker: I think there's two spots available from qualify. Not one that ESPN has to put on their airways. Yeah, two spots.

51:43Matt Roberts: Yeah, so I suspect that's where Arani Vavasori will find themselves. Surely they get... They need a wild card. There you get. Tatiana Maria hasn't got one for Queen's. Yeah. Will Maja Kvalinska get one for Wimbledon? We were talking about this because I do not think Wimbledon are going to be, you know, gladly doing that. I think they might realise they kind of have to because it would be so ludicrous for her not to be there. But I think they're going to be pretty tight for wild cards. I do too. And you've had Scott Lloyd, chief executive of the LTA, coming out and making this incredibly punchy statement about how wild cards at British events are for British players.

52:24Now, I know it's the Wimbledon committee that make the wild card decisions,

52:28Matt Roberts: but they do tend to go to British players, and the LTA have a lot of say in that. I mean obviously the whole thing throws up what an absolute unscientific nonsense wildcards are clearly we don't have time to debate that I'll just let that sit there as the truth you into wildcards for Charlie? I do think the I've said this before but the Grand Slam nations getting to give players from their countries who already have such privileges anyway by coming from a Grand Slam nation to also get that is that to me, I do think is ludicrous. That to me is like a big corporation having a scheme to help like privately educated kids get into the workplace.

53:13It's like, I think they've had enough of a leg up in the same way. I think if you come from Britain as a tennis player, you have a lot of fringe advantages. I don't think you then all need to be getting wild cards.

53:24Matt Roberts: Speaking my language, Charlie. Musketeer of the day, I found one. 20-year-old Ksenia Shastel has reached the women's wheelchair singles semifinal for the first time in her career with a win over Kogothatso Montagne. So congratulations, Ksenia, place in the semifinals and musketeer of the day.

53:45David Law: Far more important.

53:46Matt Roberts: In terms of tomorrow's order of play, just two singles matches on Chattier tomorrow. First up, Jakub Mensik against Alexander Zverev. Second up, Mateo Arnaldi against Flavio Caballi. Charlie, the man who sees things coming. What do you think? Well, I said as soon as Sinner went out, we did a piece on The Athletic, all of us saying who we thought would win it. I said Zverev. That was the day before Djokovic went out as well. He was still there. And on the other side of the draw, Caballi's been my pick to get to the final. So I'm not changing, not deviating from those two. I think it will be his Verev-Kabali final.

54:24I am really interested in Jakub Mensik. I've got a piece actually coming out tomorrow morning on him. I went and spoke to his – I've spoken to his coach before and his mental coach and to him. I spoke to his coach, again, Thomas Yosefus, today. I really like him. I think he – Mensik has been – they first met when Mensik was about eight, and he's been his main coach since he was 14. He's been working with this mental coach since he was 13, which I do think is you know does demonstrate a real commitment to that side of the game and from someone so young I think speaks to his maturity I mean he is very mature I think I've spoken on this podcast before as well I do think Mensik has an awe about him he's a big guy he's got this kind of level of self-confidence to him which I gather from his coach isn't necessarily typical of Czechs and Czech players often they can be a bit more reserved but Mensik does really believe in himself big question is how fit he is and you know naturally mencic himself was you know kind of playing down on injury worries as was his coach today and he's had the extra day so you know that could prove to be really useful i think that gives him a fighting chance i just hope he is in a state to really physically compete and it doesn't kind of peter out if he is physically fine let's say he's physically fine and this is to all three of you what chance do you give mencic um

55:47Matt Roberts: Try and ignore the image you have in your mind of him cramping in the press conference two days ago. Well, exactly that or him leaving on a wheelchair last week. But yeah, putting all that aside, if it's just two players a fit, I'd probably make it about a 60-40 in Zverev's favour, something like that. Matt?

56:07Catherine Whitaker: I think I would probably go 65-35 to Zverev, just a little bit stronger in Zverev's favour. I think I think Mensik's got a lot going for him you know like the serve a big one I think he can keep sets close I think he has delivered in some very important moments in big matches in his career not least the quarterfinal he was so good when the pressure was at its peak he's got a great backhand which a lot of players really struggle against Varev in those exchanges you know so there's a lot that he can do well um i think though that zverev and i put this in the newsletter the other day there's this narrative that's been built up around him that he's that he's gonna bottle it that he that he can't play in pressure moments and i i think there's some merit to that i just don't know if i fully agree with it i think most often he backs down when he needs to step up against better players and he can't do it.

57:18Catherine Whitaker: He's very good at beating who he should beat. Here, he's won 29 of his last 31 against players ranked lower than him. And the two he lost, those players were Novak Djokovic and Rafael Nadal. They're hardly bad losses, right? He has a way of outlasting these guys and he's so steady through a five-set match. He actually doesn't tend to have huge peaks and troughs. And I just think that that quality will probably get him over the line, coupled with the physical advantage that I do think he's got. You know, I know we're trying to take that out of it, but I do think that's a factor in the match. And just quickly, that is why I backed him to win it, because you look at his three final defeats.

58:03They were all two players that were better than him, higher ranked than him. Dominic Thiem, that was the one that was probably closest in ranking and obviously in the fact Thiem hadn't won one, but Thiem was in the positions Verev's in now as being the guy who'd had the more experience had lost three-stand finals and then he plays Alcaraz and then he plays Sinner. Yes, it's partly down to his mentality but it's mainly to the fact that they are better than him whereas this time, because obviously he couldn't play Djokovic in the final whoever he was going to be playing in the final he was going to be higher ranked, more experienced than and that's why I have always felt he'll get it over the line and including against Mensik tomorrow.

58:37Matt Roberts: Thanks for mentioning Dominic Thiem. Matt and I fell down a Dominic team rabbit hole yesterday, ended up watching highlights. Do you know he's only 32? He could be here winning this French Open. We've lost so much. David, what do you think?

58:51David Law: I don't have much to add, because I feel very similar to both Charlie and Matt on it. I think Mensik needs to win the first set. I think he needs to not be behind chasing. He might do some catching up, But the thing is, I think he needs to have enough of a buffer for when he probably has a bit of a letdown physically and maybe mentally at some point in the match and needs to not be falling way further behind. He needs to be able to have a chance for his second wind, which we know he has multiple of, that could help to get him to the line. But Zverev, at the moment, I mean, I think he has in first sets come out looking a bit creaky at times and shonky and forehands going everywhere.

59:39David Law: But he's settled that down and he's actually settled it down all the time in time to win the set, even though he's been breaks down. So I actually think he's playing well and he's not panicking. He's taken it in his stride. And like you all said, he knows that these are the guys he can beat.

59:57Matt Roberts: And everyone's back in Caballi? Yeah.

1:00:00David Law: Yeah. Yeah.

1:00:02Matt Roberts: You're going to lead with the big Nadal shower story?

1:00:06Catherine Whitaker: I mean, Caballi. I saw that on the BBC today.

1:00:09Matt Roberts: Did you? Yeah. And I'm sure the Sun also. I just didn't check that. Didn't need to. I bet they're enjoying the Coco van der Wey footage, the Sun Sports News desk. Who isn't? Sorry, Charlie. No, I mean, Caballi is just great value. I mean, he's quirky. He's good fun. I mean, obviously the fact that Arnaudi, his match got cut short against Berrettini is a help slash essential to him having any chance because I think he must be, you know, right on the edge physically. 19 and a half hours. Insane. It's unreal. okay we will find out tomorrow we'll be back with a podcast at the end of it all charlie are you a cat guy so i have quite a complicated relationship with cats actually i did have a cat growing up who i really loved and then just sort of drifted apart a bit okay okay where did it go she just i don't know she got I don't know.

1:01:22The love from both of us went. It didn't help. I did once. Are you sure you're talking about a cat?

1:01:28Matt Roberts: I've literally never heard of anybody falling out of love with a family pet before.

1:01:32David Law: Drifting apart. Jenny and I, we just, we had this really great relationship and then, yeah, just went our separate ways a little bit. Not helped by me once throwing a VHS in frustration at a last minute equaliser being conceded. Unbeknownst to me, it wasn't deliberate. she kind of entered the room and I very nearly hit her with this VHS.

1:01:54Matt Roberts: You've buried the lead there, Charlie. Yeah, that may have contributed to us drifting apart. You attacked your family cat.

1:01:59David Law: Not so much drifting apart, she bolted out of the room.

1:02:02Matt Roberts: I was going to show you Bashir, but I'm not sure I want him anywhere near you. But anyway, there's a lovely cat. Cute cat. Yeah, great cat. Let's move Charlie on from cats.

1:02:12Catherine Whitaker: What was the last minute equaliser? It was January 2003, Matt. Liverpool 2, Arsenal 2 in a game Arsenal should absolutely have won. It's very annoying. Nothing worse. Last minute equalises, they are the worst, aren't they? If you remember it unfondly,

1:02:27Matt Roberts: imagine how Jenny remembered it. RIP.

1:02:33Not directly related. She had eight years after that. She was very old.

1:02:42Matt Roberts: Hello to Bodhi. Hello, Maisie. Hello, Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. Matt, let's have some shout-outs.

1:02:51Catherine Whitaker: We have Fee Simpson from Brisbane, Australia. Hi, Fee.

1:02:57Matt Roberts: Hello, Fee.

1:02:58Catherine Whitaker: Fee says, got to live out my dream of going to Wimbledon in 2025 to celebrate my 50th birthday. My first time in London, I loved every second. Short for Fiona, we're assuming. I reckon. Fiona Farrow. Very good. Draver beat in the first round here. Everybody's coming up.

1:03:18Matt Roberts: Simpson, tennis Simpsons. Has there been a tennis episode of the Simpsons? Yeah, there was one where Agus, certainly Sampras and a few others, and the Williams sisters, I think, guest starred. There we go. Charlie was a Simpsons guy. Not a cat guy, but a Simpsons guy.

1:03:33Catherine Whitaker: They wanted Pistol Pete on him, you see.

1:03:35Matt Roberts: Thank you, Fee.

1:03:37Catherine Whitaker: We also have Katie Killian from Mountain Brook, Alabama. Right, Katie.

1:03:42Matt Roberts: Hello, Katie.

1:03:44Catherine Whitaker: That's Katie with a Y. And Katie says, like, Katie Dunn, a British player who I've never heard of. Wow, Katie from Alabama coming up with Katie Dunn. I was thinking Katie Swan, but she was an IE, wasn't she?

1:04:00Matt Roberts: Would you like me to tell you what the capital of Alabama is? Please. Because I can do that. Because I'm cool, Matt.

1:04:05Catherine Whitaker: Yep.

1:04:06Matt Roberts: Montgomery. How did you know that? Because I was cool as a teenager. You like them all? Yeah. Very good. Last time I shared that, Matt said... Like Albany being the capital of New York, isn't that a crazy one? Yeah, Matt said, I'm glad I'm friends with you now.

1:04:28Catherine Whitaker: Would you like me to move on?

1:04:30Matt Roberts: Thank you, Katie.

1:04:31Catherine Whitaker: We have a lovely last shout-out, and it comes from Vicky, our Vicky, who wants to wish her mum, Chrissie, a happy birthday for June the 5th. So as we're recording, that is tomorrow. And the day that Chrissie will be listening.

1:04:48Matt Roberts: That is wonderful. Like Chrissie Evert. Yeah.

1:04:53Catherine Whitaker: And Vicky says, we're looking forward to our day together going to Queen's next week.

1:04:58Matt Roberts: Oh, mother-daughter trip to Queen's. Nice thought. My mum met Vicky at Queen's last year.

1:05:05David Law: everybody's day improves on the subject of Vicky and other mums

1:05:10Matt Roberts: Chrissie I hope you have a wonderful birthday you have a wonderful daughter thank you Vicky happy birthday Chrissie thank you all for listening to the tennis podcast we're part of the Athletic Podcast Network do check out Charlie and everyone else's work at the Athletic five people you've had on site this four months it's been great absolutely we will be back tomorrow folks thanks for listening We'll speak to you then.

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