French Open Day 6 - Djokovic downed as Fonseca comes of age

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1:17Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast coming to you from Paris midway through what is developing into one of the craziest major tournaments in our lifetime, certainly on the men's side, at least. With the loss of Novak Djokovic today, we are guaranteed to arrive in the second week of the tournament with no Grand Slam winners in the draw for the first time since the start of the Open era. So someone is becoming a major champion for the first time a week on Sunday. And that is thanks to 19-year-old Joel Fonseca, who this evening recovered from two sets to love down to defeat the 24-time major champion Novak Djokovic, 4-6, 4-6, 6-3, 7-5, 7-5, in four hours and 53 minutes.

2:18Matt Roberts: A quintessential coming of age, changing of the guard. Pick your cliche, quite frankly. Did this match, Matt Roberts, make you feel the way an epic Grand Slam upset is supposed to feel? Was it payback for yesterday and the strange sensation we were all left with after Yannick Sinner's shock five-set defeat?

2:43Catherine Whitaker: Well, first of all, I just got chills. You reading out that intro and that point about we're going to have a new major champion. You know, that's been kind of the defining feature of men's tennis, hasn't it? Who is going to be the next first time champion? And we're going to find out. It is wild. And yeah, this match absolutely gave me everything I'm looking for from an upset. You know, from the moment I stepped on to court Philippe Chatrier at the start of the third set and was just hit with this wall of noise from the Brazilian fans and this explosion of colour from the Brazilian fans and their yellow shirts.

3:27Catherine Whitaker: It already felt very, very different to yesterday and Yannick Sinner's defeat. And, yeah, what unfolded over the next few hours, I didn't know it was going to be hours when I got up there, had echoes of Alcaraz Sinner last year in terms of the arc of the match coming from two sets down, the drama, the length, and ultimately the exhilaration, I felt. And, yeah, it's interesting. The thing about these Djokovic defeats in this stage of his career is personally I don't really view them as changing of the guard moments. I kind of think the guard changed years ago, and yet here he still is. You know, he handed over the keys, but he's still there, and he's still producing an unreal level of tennis at 39.

4:17Catherine Whitaker: And he was doing Djokovic things today, you know, and he's not at full pelt with his lack of preparation for this tournament, but he took the two sets to love lead and he'd won 243 matches in a row from two sets to love up. And yet where most players break under that kind of Djokovic pressure, Fonseca responded and surged and answered the questions asked of him and I felt like grew before our eyes blossomed into the player that he's been hyped to be and talked up to be and seemed to learn how to use his game over the course of those final three sets massive shots yes but also drop shots and touch.

5:07Catherine Whitaker: This was incredible and ultimately coming through to win it staring down break point in the final game and hitting back to back to back aces. I mean just electrifying a match I'll remember forever.

5:24Matt Roberts: Joel Fonseca David, maybe you went wrong maybe you were just early. Well yeah

5:34David Law: Yeah. Look, it is still very early, isn't it? Because it is only three rounds in, in terms of the sort of stuff I was talking about a year ago. But I mean, I do feel like this match itself kind of felt like a coming of age for him, to use that cliche at the start, because of the fact that he was two sets down. And he looked like a little boy against the master, the grandmaster, who was just schooling him. Honestly, there was no jeopardy in this match at all. It was kind of the match I think most of us were expecting at Two Sets to Love. I went up with Matt to the press seats in that third set, mainly just because I wanted to see what the atmosphere was like and see how many Brazilians were in the crowd.

6:22David Law: I wasn't expecting a comeback at all. And by the time we got into the press seats, those were even jammed. And this is a really enormous press box. We can get, I don't know, 150-odd people in there, maybe more. I'm not sure. But we had to squeeze past all sorts of people to get into our seats. And it was just when Fonseca was breaking serve and the place just exploded in yellow and Brazilian colours and song. And just the drama was there if he could ignite it. And that's what impressed me the most is he had to do it. He had to start it. I mean, they were doing their best to get behind him, but he had to provide the spark.

7:07David Law: And he gave a fantastic analysis afterwards about how the conditions changed, you know, went from hot and dry to sort of, and he said he couldn't really control the ball and he couldn't believe what Djokovic was doing to him, really. He just felt, I think he was just in awe, really, of him. And then in sets three, four and five, when it got heavier, he came into his own and he started hitting through that with his lashings of topspin. But yes, I feel as though he learnt to use his game in this match and he showed great tactical nails in the moment. When he saw Djokovic's legs had kind of gone late on, he really utilised the drop shot.

7:50David Law: And we were laughing at a couple of his drop shots that was sort of so close to being out but catching a line that they don't really count. They're sort of one in a million drop shots. Late on, it was a very different scene. He was piecing together, constructing rallies that ultimately won him this match, as well as the enormous power.

8:12Matt Roberts: Like a superhero discovering his powers. That's what it looked like. It is so hard not to use lazy Al Corral's comparisons, isn't it? But that is what he made you think of today, for me anyway.

8:27Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, because the thing about the Fonseca power is he doesn't always have to beat you with it. Just having it can be enough and players are threatened by it and they have to cover for it. And there is going to be space left, even by the great Novak Djokovic, especially 39 years old after four and a half hours. And yeah, Fonseca, who's so often in big moments in his young career, has resorted to going for power and going for more and lacking a bit of control. Found this touch and this control in the biggest moments of this match. It was absolutely incredible to witness.

9:11Matt Roberts: It was like he learned to trust himself, didn't he? And just his instincts of finding the blend. You know, we often talk about players that have the deepest toolkit at their disposal, sometimes taking longer to figure out how to use it and when to use what and when and how and in what combination. It feels like he's been struggling with that a lot and more than we were expecting him to over the last 12 to 15 months. But then over the course of five hours this afternoon, he kind of made up all that lost ground and did a fast track course in learning all of that, figuring all that out before our eyes.

9:57David Law: Yeah, I feel as though this, regardless of what it means in the context of this tournament, he's done two five-set matches from two sets of love down. And chances are, running into Kasparud, it's probably going to be too much for him. But even so, this is a huge line in the sand moment for Joao Fonseca because he's done something only he and Jürgen Meltzer have ever done before. and beaten this guy from two sets to love down. And it's not just that. I mean, that's a statistical quirk in a way because of Djokovic's age, you have to factor that in to that assertion. But he comes with such weight.

10:44David Law: He was goading Fonseca even in the third set. There were moments where he was trying to loop the ball up and saying, come on, you know you want to hit that forehand and it's going to go awry. He was goading him. And he was in the final set. He was taking forever at times around the court to get into position, you know. And look, he was feeling terrible, quite clearly. He was feeling terrible. But he also knows that chances are at some point the other guy, this young lad, is going to get really tight. And maybe he can just capitalize. And I think Fonseca did get tight. And yet he won anyway. and the fact that he found the solutions, that is worth more than the rest of the experience he's had in his career, really, to beat this guy in this scenario.

11:36David Law: So going forwards, I think this is enormous for João Fonseca.

11:40Matt Roberts: Just on Djokovic for a moment, it was plainful to see throughout the latter stages of that match how he was feeling physically. The conditions were challenging. It was a five-hour match. He's 39 years old and he's playing a 19-year-old. And look, he told us in the post-match interview that he'd have liked it to have been a best of three. No surprises there. He said, I ran out of gas, to be honest. He said the end of the fourth set was my chance. It feels like that's the only sort of moment that he feels like maybe it was one that got away. It was 4-3 and he had 15-40. But then he said, look, he just played great points.

12:19Matt Roberts: I don't think there's a feeling of what could have been about this match in particular for Novak Djokovic. Maybe there will be about this tournament in general. Maybe he's thinking about the set he dropped against Valentin Royer a couple of days ago. I did sense a bit of resignation from him in the fifth set of this match. Not about the match. I think he still believed he could win it. I sense to sort of, oh, fuck, even if I win this, too much canister is gone here.

12:55Catherine Whitaker: That was certainly my sense watching it. You know, like, obviously, this remarkable tournament is unfolding, and honestly, when Djokovic is two sets up, there's a part of me that wants him to close it in straight sets, even though I love a dramatic match. I just thought Djokovic closing that in straight sets would be really interesting for the rest of the tournament because it felt like it would save enough energy for him and give him enough left to hopefully go deep in the tournament. And Djokovic having a run at 25 is such a compelling narrative that I was kind of into that. But as the match went on and on, and as Fonseca mounted this incredible comeback, I couldn't tell you exactly what point it was, but there was definitely a point where I thought, I think maybe now it might be better if Fonseca wins this.

13:46Catherine Whitaker: And he gets that coming of age moment that we've just talked about. And Djokovic still gets to feel incredibly proud of this performance.

13:54Matt Roberts: And he was, I think. He really was. He totally was. He knows how good the level was. He knows how incredible it is for a 39-year-old, any 39-year-old to be able to produce tennis like that.

14:05Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. No one comes out of this match thinking any less of Novak Djokovic or that it's done anything but enhance his legacy in this sport, you know. And yet there was this point where I just thought, oh, he's too far gone. He's used up too much. He's not here to reach the fourth round. No. And winning the title felt gone. It felt gone. I mean, because, well, the Royer match was pushing four hours. This one was pushing five hours. I think he was able to do what he was able to do in Australia because of that remarkable bit of luck that he had in terms of the withdrawal and then the retirement. Like he would have needed something, I think, like that again.

14:47Catherine Whitaker: And I think he was in worse physical shape coming into this tournament than he was in Australia as well. But the level of tennis he produced was outstanding. And I must on air apologise to David for hurting him in that fifth set with my flailing limbs. in response to the Djokovic backhand down the line winner deep in the fifth set. It's my favourite shot in tennis, like someone lining up a backhand down the line. And I just saw the gap and I just didn't know whether he was going to go for it. And he did. And he just nailed it and had an involuntary bodily reaction and hurt David.

15:27Matt Roberts: This is a real evolution of Matt reactions because we've had a lot of noises, haven't we? I remember the Shontek missed match point noise. I hear it in my nightmares sometimes. And that closely resembled the Matteo Bertini backhand or match point noise. But flailing limbs is an upgrade or a downgrade.

15:49David Law: It wasn't isolated either because this was just the start. I mean, we did go through a run because it was back-to-back points where Fonseca had hit this astonishingly powerful forehand cross court winner. and then Djokovic answered with this back end down the line. And then as the games went on, the shot making became all the more audacious. And yet we were having visceral reactions, weren't we? We couldn't sit still jumping out of our seats for both players. You know, I just felt really lucky to be witnessing it for those two last sets.

16:27Matt Roberts: How, I know this is an impossible question. I'm here to ask impossible questions. Forgive me. How far back do you think you have to go for a version of Novak Djokovic that didn't lose this match, that was able to put the foot to the floor and win it in three, that was able to do the same thing against Valentin Roy two days ago and finish that off in three? So we had more in the tank today. I guess the question is, how much is he declining physically and how fast? Like, would Djokovic of 12 months ago, the one that we saw be Alexander Zverev here, would you have given him significantly more of a shot of winning today and not, in Djokovic's words, run out of gas?

17:14David Law: It's a difficult one to answer because I think a year ago he'd played more in the run up. I think he was a bit more prepared.

17:22Matt Roberts: Do you think that's a significant factor?

17:24David Law: I do think that that's a factor, yeah. I don't think he gets embroiled as much in the first two rounds as he has if he'd have played more matches.

17:33Catherine Whitaker: And I think particularly on clay, you know, he said in his press conference, didn't he, that this is the surface which takes him longest to find his groove. And I think that has traditionally been true. You know, by the time he's got to Earl on Garros after a clay court season, whether it be a big one or even just a short one, he's normally been fine. But here he was basically picking up clay again. And OK, he had that one match in Rome, but he had to he had to get to grips with the surface again during World on Gareth, which is not something that he typically wants to do. But it's tricky because even in the last couple of years, we've talked about physical issues for Novak Djokovic being kind of the biggest barrier for him still in terms of winning one of these things, which he hasn't done since the US Open in 2023.

18:18Catherine Whitaker: because the level of tennis when he is physically there is still good enough to beat the best players in the world. He's done it this year. I think that win against Yannick Sinner is going to just age so impeccably well, isn't it? Beating Yannick Sinner in 2020.

18:37David Law: Without Sinner seemingly struggling with heat. Exactly. That was just a match.

18:42Catherine Whitaker: So, look, I think even Djokovic in Australia, I remember he played Bertik van der Zanskiel, I think third round in Australia this year. And he was in trouble in a third set. And we were thinking then he needs to win efficiently. And he just had this acceleration and was awesome and got it done. Now, obviously, Fonseca is a better player than Bertik. And I think what, sorry, Catherine, I think what Djokovic was...

19:09Matt Roberts: I was expecting Bertik to be catching strays tonight.

19:11Catherine Whitaker: I think Djokovic was so full of praise for Fonseca, wasn't he, in that press conference. It felt like he thought he'd done pretty much all he could and Fonseca wrenched it from him. But look, I still think there's a Djokovic at Wimbledon in a few weeks' time who could have won this match.

19:32Matt Roberts: Right. So do you come out of this tournament, even though it's a third round defeat from two sets to Lava, and we've seen him run out of gas and suffer clearly with the symptoms of being a 39-year-old man. Do you feel good about Novak Djokovic at Wimbledon because it's still, okay, Yannick Sinner is unlikely to lose to Juan Manuel Sorundolo in a heatwave in the second round of Wimbledon. I'm not ruling anything out. Just saying that happening again is probably unlikely. But Carlos Alcaraz isn't going to be there. Again, there is another relative opportunity for Djokovic at Wimbledon. Do you feel good about Djokovic going into Wimbledon?

20:20David Law: I do feel good. I would imagine if he doesn't have any physical setbacks, I would imagine he will be in better shape at Wimbledon than he was here, partly because of what he's done here. He's played himself, what, 10 hours of tennis more? You know, he played three and a half hours against Pesci Pericard and then four hours plus against Royer and now five hours. You know, it's what? It's 12 hours. So that's a good amount of time on the court. I know it's a different surface, but that is a good match-type toughness that he's needed. He's going to rest up now. I think his level, I mean, it goes without saying at Wimbledon, really, to me, that his level should be high.

21:05David Law: He is still the great Novak Djokovic who's won that tournament all those times. The only thing is this was an opportunity because Sinner wasn't there and Alcaraz wasn't there. Now Sinner's going to likely be there. So that's one bloke who's going to be in the way. Who, you know, doesn't, I think anybody, they won't talk about it now, but anybody who loses now is thinking, oh, God, this was the chance.

21:34Matt Roberts: I mean, a part of Novak Djokovic is thinking that right now. He shut down Matt Futterman's question along those lines. He knew what the question was. Everybody in that room knows what the answer is. Yes, this was a fucking missed opportunity. And I'm furious still about that set I dropped against Valentin Royer because I knew at the time I couldn't afford to do that. But it is a missed opportunity. I mean, rinse and repeat for everybody that we're going to talk about having lost today, right? Like, this will feel like the one that got away for all of them.

22:09David Law: Yeah, I do reckon that if somehow lightning struck twice and at Wimbledon something happened to Sinner, I think he'd be a hell of a lot more dangerous there. I do think then with what he's had now, I mean, he could go and win that thing.

22:28Catherine Whitaker: And it's a less physical tournament, right? Wimbledon, you know, the grass is slicker, quicker, points are generally shorter than on the clay. Who knows what the weather is going to be like in London in a month's time or so, but...

22:43Matt Roberts: I know that I've got an air conditioning unit in my spare room.

22:49Catherine Whitaker: Big for David.

22:51Matt Roberts: It will be moving. I've got fans galore, David. we are we're set up I don't need the air conditioning as much as Catherine to be honest

23:02Catherine Whitaker: but like you know it's unlikely to be 30 degrees for a whole week like it has been here and that will help I think as well Novak Djokovic yeah I I totally feel good about Novak Djokovic going into Wimbledon.

23:22Matt Roberts: What about Fonseca then, David? You seem, I mean, high on Fonseca generally long-term, but you're clearly limiting expectations, maybe even hope for how much further he might go in that tournament. Is that because you feel a kind of responsibility, you know, for this 19-year-old kid that is now going to have all the casuals paying attention to him and going, well, he's beaten Novak Djokovic. He's probably going to go on and win the French Open. You know, look at what Guga did back in 1997. He was way lower ranked than Fonseca. This will be a breeze for him, right? Everybody else is lost. Like, are you kind of trying to a little bit correct for that hype?

24:10Matt Roberts: Do you know what I mean? Because I think there's a part of you that thinks he can win this.

24:15David Law: Oh. I mean the truth is Catherine we're now at a stage I keep having to look around and remind myself that Yannick Sinner isn't here and Novak Djokovic isn't here and Carlos Akraes isn't here that changes the equation for everybody because it's when when you did your intro like like Matt You really have to almost, did I hear that right? That there's going to be a new major champion at this tournament? We're not even halfway through. You know, we know that that is the case. So logically thinking, my brain goes, well, Joao Fonseca's really green still. He has made significant strides, I think, as an overall tennis player the last year, even though he's maybe not as exciting as I thought a year ago when I thought he could actually win this tournament like, you know, a Boris Becker or somebody, but he's actually developed as a player.

25:16David Law: He's actually become a much more consistent player. Loved talking to him today in the press conference. He's such an analytical guy and very considered. So I think he's improved. I also have to think, well, he's also come back from two sets to love down twice in a row. When's that catching up with him? Surely it will, in my logical mind. And then I think, well, yeah, but without those three around now, why not him? And I feel like that about quite a few, really.

25:49Matt Roberts: And he's also now going to take on somebody else in the next round who's had his own pretty circuitous route to get there and has expended a lot of energy. OK, has a lot more experience, Casper Rude, but he's deployed an awful lot more energy than he would have wanted to getting to this stage. I guess, look, there was a big question mark over the physical bounce back for Joel Fonseca. He's never been in this position. We don't know. He doesn't know, I don't think, about the bounce back. There's also the psychological and emotional bounce back, isn't there? How on earth do you sort of tell your nervous system that this isn't the summit of the mountain, that beating Novak Djokovic with all of that Brazilian support in those circumstances and all of that adrenaline, how do you tell your nervous system, this isn't it, this isn't the top?

26:41There's maybe four more of these to go.

26:45David Law: And also, even just physically, we've seen it now. We saw it with Lando Luthe, didn't we, yesterday, when he went two sets down and he won three games and he came back and won because his body seemed to be so stiff after his exertions.

26:59Matt Roberts: Wait till we get on to the academic, David. Well, exactly.

27:01David Law: You know, it's almost like players are losing a first set 6-1 or something before their body wakes up after these sort of matches.

27:08Matt Roberts: Well, Ruud and Ponseca can't both do that in the next draft.

27:12David Law: No, but Ruud is used to this. His body is weathered in that regard. You know, he knows what's coming. He knows he's had two of those matches. I just, that isn't really a question mark in my mind. Even if Djokovic had won in three sets, I don't think I'd have been thinking, oh, Rude's played five sets again. You know, I expect him to come out in two days and be fine physically. Fonseca's going to have to knock him off the court or play him off the court. I think that's a big ask.

27:42Matt Roberts: But regardless, even if he loses in the next round, what you've learned about Joel Fonseca tonight is enough to make you feel as you did a year ago about his prospects?

27:57David Law: I don't know about as high as that because I think I was being a bit silly a year ago. But I'm really impressed with him because the other thing is I'm impressed with him as a human being because of people like me and all the hype and all the stuff he has to, as lovely as it is to have all this Brazilian sport, It is a lot and he handles it so well. And actually, I don't think that's going to be a problem. I don't even, the nervous system thing you mentioned is totally logical. I actually think he's going to be all right with that. I think the danger is hitting the wall physically and knowing that you've got to be able to live with a guy like Kasparud, who's not 39 for best of five sets.

28:41Catherine Whitaker: I think for me what this win does is it just quietens down the counter noise that had risen up in response to the Fonseca hype. There'd been quite a lot of people saying, oh, he's overhyped and he's not that good and his ceiling's not that high, etc., etc., etc. And I think this match today will just make that go away, you know, because you see, you know, the ceiling is incredible of the game and he's done it under the biggest pressure against, you know, one of the all time greats. Like he's just answered so many questions there. And I think people now will, if they didn't already realize what this guy's got and how special he he could be.

29:34Catherine Whitaker: You know, like that was that was very much Novak Djokovic's point in the press conference. He's got everything he needs. He seems to have a really good work ethic and team around him, a lot of talents. and you know all of that doesn't necessarily guarantee that he's going to become a world number one and win multiple majors and all that kind of kind of stuff but he's doing the right things and that's that's how i feel about fonseca and it is special that it's that he's had this moment at rodon garros because of the guga connection like the brazilian connection to this tournament like you know if he'd done that at any any of the other grand slams it would have been amazing but it wouldn't have sounded like it sounded and looked like it looked you know

30:19Matt Roberts: it was so special it a match that that reached its conclusion just before 9 p.m just as Caspar Rood and Tommy Paul were getting going over on Longland on the other side of a role on Garros and little did we know that the the evening would end up developing into a sort of mini version of Australian Open Men's Semi-Finals Day. It felt like, well, we've had our fun. We are totally overstimulated, but at least we can catch our breath now. Enter Caspar Rood and his own fight back from Two Sets to Love Down against poor old Tommy Paul. David and I came back to the apartment to order the galettes before all of the restaurants closed.

31:08Matt Roberts: Matt stayed on, on site, to watch the end of this live on Longland. came through the doors of the apartment after walking home and said Tommy Paul is going to have nightmares.

31:23Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I stand by it, you know. He'd built this two sets to love Leeds. He had a couple of match points in the fourth set. Tommy Paul didn't take those. I think Rude played them really well and then closed that game with his own Fonseca-style back-to-back aces and took it to that fifth and you know there was a point at the start of that fifth set where I actually thought Rude might run away with it I think Paul was thinking about those match points and the lead that he'd lost and Rude went up a break and Paul was pretty frustrated he broke a racket and got a got a warning for that you know like it was it was feeling like it wasn't going to be a particularly close fifth set to me but almost like going three love down helped paul just reset and then he started to play really well on his own terms got it back level and then at five all paul had multiple break points on the rude serve that would have left him serving for the match and the forehand the tommy paul forehand broke down you know like these two players rude and paul have got opposite they've kind of got opposite ground strokes you know like for paul his reliable shot is his two-handed backhand it's money he hits it flat he can take it both directions it's brilliant but the forehand is a bit it's a bit flaky and for rude it's the other way around you know the backhand can be exploited but the forehand is such a weapon and in that kind of matchup men's tennis i'm kind of taking the guy with the bigger forehand you know the so much of men's tennis is one with forehands and rude's got a much better forehand than paul and paul's broke down you know error after error on those break points and then he's five six down and he's 40 love up he looks to be cruising to a tie break final set tie break the final crescendo of the evening and again it's the forehand that goes and costs him and rude comes up with some big shots of his own and gets it done and it's a it's an incredible win for rude you know i thought rude was out of this tournament a couple of rounds ago when he looked like a ghost on court and had no energy and was drained and then here again he looked down and out he he's living on the edge this tournament but i wonder whether that feeling might galvanize him and help him um he played he played the big points well down the stretch today and look him and zverev to me are pretty neck and neck in terms of favourites for this title.

34:20Catherine Whitaker: I'd give the slight eggs to Zverev because of his greater consistency generally, but they've both got experience of three grand slam finals and they're both in the same half of the draw. And it's a massive opportunity for everyone left in this draw, but I think particularly those two. Rude and Zverev, to me, feel slightly separated from everyone else.

34:44Matt Roberts: So then what if I told you that there are bookies out there, oddsmakers, that have Rafael Holdar as the favourite for the men's title right now?

34:57Catherine Whitaker: I wouldn't agree with that.

34:59Matt Roberts: I don't think it's outrageous. No, I don't either. But I don't agree with it. But that is the case.

35:05Catherine Whitaker: I didn't see a lot of Holdar today. David, I know you watched most of this match against Mickelson.

35:11Matt Roberts: To be honest, I thought Hodder was gone after he dropped the second set. It was only a set apiece at this point. Hodder took the first on a tie break and lost the second on a tie break. But I was backing Alex Mickelson from that point on. The Hodder body language was bad. I was very worried about him physically. There was an incident with a ball kid that we'll come on to talk about kind of separately. But, yeah, I kind of thought he was as down and out as Kaspar Rude after going two sets of love down, you know, and it was only a set apiece. Like, I mean, incredible effort from him, aided a little bit by physical issues for Alex Mickelson.

35:54Matt Roberts: I mean, yeah, your assessment of Raphael Holdar today and how fanciful talk of him potentially winning this title is, David.

36:04David Law: Well, I think the first thing to say is if Tommy Paul's going to have nightmares tonight, I think Alex Mickelson will have some regrets. I don't think he will be as haunted as Paul will be, but I think he will feel like he probably should have won this match. I think he was the better player for the first two sets, in all honesty, and he only won one of those, and then he won the third set as well. missed some chances we did see Hodder really put on the afterburners in the first set tie break he was too loved down he won the next seven points but at no point in this match and no real point in this this last two matches that I've seen has he looked like the player who raced through the Barcelona and Madrid draws and was just destroying the ball and really hurting everybody he was on the back foot most of the time against Mickelson who's got a sweet backhand I mean Mickelson really carries himself with some presence now he's he's clearly balked up a little bit in the shoulders I suspect he's he's just growing into his body a bit more I'm sure he's doing the weights and that sort of thing as well but he he has real presence out on the court and and he was bossing the rallies like the the aggression more to me hot i was responding to it um and showed great grit today i i did think this was a little bit similar to to fonseca he learned something about himself he learned that he could come back from two sets to one down sort of last physically i mean this is well over four hours and and just come back and win it in five it was it was a real real achievement for him but i that's not what i was signing up to when i was thinking of him as a potential finalist at this tournament which i did think he was i i did i did sort of look at that half the draw and zverev's there and i and look he's due to face very often the quarters if they get that far and if if hoddahl is okay to bounce back freshness wise and and and take on public arena buster and win that match without expending too much i'd love to see him feeling fresh against verev i think that would be fascinating because i think he's got the sort of game certainly that i saw a couple of months ago that really is not what zverev wants to be playing against um because he's got the weapons but he just hasn't looked like that so far this this match reminded me extraordinarily of the one that carlos alcaraz played against um albert Ramos Vinalas on the same court.

38:45David Law: I think it was four, five years ago. And it was almost identical scoreline. Two sets to one down, came back and one in five. And then played Zverev, I think, in the quarters, and Zverev beat him, beat Alcaraz. So I think it is fanciful, to be honest, Catherine, to think of Hodder as the favourite in this draw. When you've got Zverev and when you've got Kasparud, I think I definitely have them ahead of him at the moment

39:13Matt Roberts: But he's in the mix Yeah, he's in the mix In a way that Fonseca isn't saying I mean, there's people out there putting literally everybody in the mix at this point

39:23David Law: But that is such an interesting, you know, it's not something we've talked about yet But isn't it interesting, who is in the mix? How deep is the mix? I was thinking we could do that tomorrow When we've got 16 players left Yeah, I'd be fascinated to go through that with you guys about that But I would say that Hoddan needs to rediscover the guy he was six weeks ago, who hits just winners galore. At the moment, in my mind, he's behind those other couple. And probably behind Felix Augielli, I see him in the other half of the draw because he doesn't have quite as many players to get through. I mean, I'm worried about him physically in the same way that I'm worried about Fonseca physically.

40:11Matt Roberts: It's such an unknown quantity. It's incredible that he is fighting through these five setters, but it feels like there's a wall there looming somewhere. I don't know exactly where it is, but it feels like there has to be one. The difference is for Holdar compared to Fonseca is that, all due respect, he's got Pablo Grigny Buster in the next round, which feels a significantly better situation than having Kasparud in the next round. But look, maybe Pablo Grigny Buster's in the mix at this point. It's one of them tournaments. Just to say, I hinted at it a moment ago, there was an incident very much doing the rounds on social media of Rafael Hoda when he went off court at the end of that second set.

40:56Matt Roberts: It's a bit awkward on Simone Machaut. You have to sort of go off in the corner of the court. There's a ball kid positioned there. The footage is inconclusive. A couple of camera angles looks different from both of them. There is certainly one camera angle that makes it look like he sort of pushes the ball kid out of the way in his haste to get to the exit and get off court. The other angle makes it look like that is not what happens and the ball kid sort of happens to stumble kind of as a result of clearly noticing that Hodder is, you know, charging towards her and getting desperate to get out of this door.

41:32And there's definitely a sort of irritable swipe of the hand from him.

41:35Matt Roberts: He was asked about it in his press. He adamantly denies that he, he pushed the girl and I'm absolutely prepared to give, give him the benefit of the doubt on that. Quite frankly, this is, this is a young kid and there is not conclusive evidence. I would just say that there have been a few incidents of Rafael Hodar in the past few weeks being a bit rash with ball kids that I think someone could do with just having a word with him about. I think perhaps that's why this is blowing up quite a lot, because he had gained a bit of a reputation and maybe people aren't as inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

42:18Matt Roberts: he's extremely young this is his first go around this thing he's carrying the stress of people talking about him being a title contender I'm prepared to cut him a lot of slack but I do think he could do with nipping that sort of thing in the bud

42:36Catherine Whitaker: Yeah I completely agree I felt like a video assistant referee looking at the various angles earlier and did Hodder

42:45Matt Roberts: Where's Kevin Friend when he did?

42:46Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. Did Hodder, you know, push the ball kid or did the ball kid trip? I need another angle, please. Another angle. Slow it down. But yeah, no, look, I agree with you. I do think the ball kid tripped over the cover, the tarp at the back of the court. More on that later. But I did also see some clips of Hodder, you know, being chippy around the ball kids. asking for stuff very quickly and getting a bit irritated with them. And I totally agree with what you've said. He's young, he's learning, but cut that out, I think.

43:28Matt Roberts: Just on a serious note about, well, not that it's not serious, but just on a sort of tennis-related note, he's been asked about that in press. You know, this is a kid that's never done any of this before. I don't know how online he is, but I kind of hope not very online because there is a lot of negative stuff out there around this incident. And he had to defend himself in press and deny that he's pushed a young girl. Like, I don't know enough about him and his personality and temperament to know if that's going to affect him. But it certainly could. It certainly could, I think. Goodness me, still so much tennis to talk about.

44:10Matt Roberts: Let's rattle on through these results. So Hoda to face Pablo Kareña Busta in the next round. Andrei Rublev won today. Straight sets for him against Nuno Borges. Big opportunity for him to reach a first major quarterfinal in more than two years. He hasn't dramatically dropped off a cliff, Andrei Rublev, so it's just not something we've talked about. He's just sort of slowly stayed still while the game's moved on, although he is definitely trying to evolve his game. That is a project. And if he progresses in this tournament, then perhaps that's something we can talk more about because it is interesting.

44:49Matt Roberts: He's got Jakub Mensik in the fourth round for a place in the quarterfinals. A lot of weird things happened today at Roland Garros. I'm not sure much weirder happened than Jakub Mensik losing the opening set to Alex de Menor, Six love, winning just five points in the entire set. And then going on to win the match, 6-2, 6-2, 6-3. That is bonkers. I mean, I didn't see any of that opening set because all sorts of things were happening. But I immediately tuned in, having seen the school line, thinking, well, I assume he's going to retire. I'll tune into this and have a look and, you know, kind of a bit morbid of me, but, you know, wait and see when the inevitable retirement comes.

45:43Matt Roberts: I was not expecting three straightforward sets from that point onwards. And, you know, Menchit was pretty upfront about it. Afterwards, he said, he said it was super tough to turn my body on again today.

45:58David Law: We know that feeling. Yeah.

46:00Matt Roberts: Yeah, it was like, you know, being stiff when you wake up in the morning and he said I just needed time to get going and I did. Very interesting Alex de Manor quotes at the end of the match because this could not be less of an Alex de Manor scoreline and he knows that. He's having a bit of an existential crisis, I get the sense. He said, I'm usually the dog with a bone guy and today I took my foot off the gas and I let it go and that's been happening a lot recently. he said in a very dejected way he said I feel like you only get so many opportunities in your career and you've got to be ready to take them and when you don't it's gut-wrenching

46:43David Law: especially when Yannick Sinner and Carlos Alcraz aren't around

46:46Matt Roberts: I think that is that subtext there and I feel like that quote could be could replace victoire par tient plus opinatre for the remainder of this tournament being emblazoned around Court Philippe Châtrier, you only get so many opportunities, you've got to be ready to take them. That's the story of the remainder of this men's tournament, kind of, right? Who can grasp the opportunity and not let the magnitude of it drown them? And it's interesting because that's an interesting insight,

47:30Catherine Whitaker: I think into how Dimonor views himself in the ecosystem of men's tennis, you know, like kind of no matter the tournament or surface takes Sinou and Alcaraz out. I think Dimonor probably thinks he can win that event. Personally, on clay, at the French Open, even with Sinou and Alcaraz out, I don't know, I wasn't really thinking about Alex Dimonor, partly because of the form he's been in. And I suppose he's the way he's talking about there and the fact that this has kind of happened throughout the season.

48:06Matt Roberts: It's the manner of the loss, I think. Yes. So not him.

48:10Catherine Whitaker: Yes.

48:11Matt Roberts: It's an identity crisis, I think, actually, for him. Yeah. It sounds like.

48:15Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. But, yeah, look, it is a it is a lost opportunity. But I suppose I would I would be thinking more about Dimonore if this had happened in Australia. Right. Maybe even Wimbledon on those surfaces.

48:32Matt Roberts: Missed opportunity for Karin Hashanov. The 11th seed, a guy that we've thought of in the past as somebody that pops up and performs at slams. Today, he lost to lucky loser, Yes, but a young. 7-5, 5-7, 6-2, 6-7, 6-2. Yes, but a young, David. Where on earth does this come from?

48:55David Law: Yes, I'm going to view it as more Jesper de Jong taking an opportunity rather than Karen Hatchinov losing it. Even though I think it's fair enough to see it like that. I mean, he played a five-set the other day against Trinjeliti. And Jesper de Jong has been doing the same thing. I mean, my word, there have been a lot of long matches at this tournament so far. but de Jong is somebody that's often sparkled in defeat against big names and he actually pointed out in the press conference well one of the reasons I'm doing better is because I haven't played Yannick Sinner, Carlos Alcres or Alexander Zverev in the second round but he's also put a lot of work in he said I've invested my money in a psychologist and also in breathing exercises which have helped him a lot.

49:54David Law: But this is a huge breakthrough for him, huge breakthrough moment. And what fascinates me is if somebody like him, without any baggage, without any bad news, might be the one to come along. But again, is he going to hit the wall? Because he should have won this match in four sets and he ended up losing it and then doing a brilliant job to reset and win the fifth. so yeah I mean I do I can see missed opportunity for Khashanov but yeah I'm quite excited for Dion

50:30Matt Roberts: He's got Zverev next, we just watched Zverev beat Conta Alice in four sets was two sets up, seemed to be cruising Alice got a bit of a well kind of a first wind actually of the match he finally found it didn't he and was you know had Zverev rocking there for a moment and given the sort of landscape of the day and the draw you started to think oh hang on like a weird thing could happen here because weird things are happening but in the end the match kind of followed the template that

51:04David Law: you would have expected yeah and I think what Zverev's doing well is using his experience very professionally to get an early break when opponents are nervous. And Elise just was always trying to catch up. And that's going to be the interesting thing for Zverev if he ends up playing Kasparud, who may not allow him that.

51:29Matt Roberts: Okay, that is it for part one. It is 10 to 2 in the morning. Just two parts to go, folks. How are we feeling?

51:36David Law: Feeling great. It's been an awesome day.

51:40Matt Roberts: Thank goodness for adrenaline. That's it for part one. We'll be back in part two in just a moment.

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54:11Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast. On to the women's matches now and some incredible fourth rounds that have been set up today. Not least, Marta Kostryk against Iga Svantec. It is on. Svantec might be about to run the Ukrainian gauntlet that we kind of circled when the draw came out a week ago. Kostiuk today, 6-4, 6-3 over Victoria Golubich and Svantec 6-4, 6-4 over Magda Lynette. I thought for Kostiuk today, I watched a lot of this one, by no means her best performance, kind of the sort of match that she might have lost in the past. Quite frankly, one of those like, oh, she's so talented, why isn't it quite...

54:56Matt Roberts: She should be beating players like this, but she's not. But I just had confidence in her throughout to win not on her best day. And I realised that we've adjusted to a new normal with Marta Kostiuk quite quickly because we didn't used to feel like that about her even quite recently. And it's nice. It's really nice feeling that way about Marta Kostiuk. I think that's great news.

55:21David Law: Yeah, I think at Grand Slams that for players like her, that is the key. That is the separator that she's been looking for all these years. Yes, it looks great, this game. And look at the athleticism and look at the match she's just won at a smaller tournament. But Grand Slams are different. You're not going to play great all the time. You've got to find ways to just be economical and get through. And here she is now. She's in the big match. This is when she needs her best stuff.

55:51Matt Roberts: And I loved her saying in the press conference afterwards how much she has been wanting to play Yiga Svantec for a while. I feel like she's like, I'm a new, I'm a different player now. I want to test myself against Yiga Svantec on clay. And I love the attitude towards this upcoming match. She was very, the message was, I'm the underdog. Like she was really positioning herself as heavy underdog. Heavy underdog that has a chance. and she believes she has a chance, but also, you know, was keen to take the pressure off. She didn't love questions about her streak that she's on and being unbeaten on clay.

56:33Matt Roberts: It was very much, yeah, it's gone really well, but this is Igor Shantek at Roland Garros, folks. Like, winning Madrid doesn't necessarily mean anything here. And she actually gave some very good analysis of how different conditions are in Madrid to, in particular, Roland Garros and how slow it is here, even in these hot conditions, how slow it is compared to Madrid. But she said, although she way preferred the court speed of Madrid and the speed of the ball through the air, the higher bounce here suits her. So it's kind of swings and roundabouts. And I give her a chance against Viontech, heavy favourite, but I give her a chance.

57:15Catherine Whitaker: I think the way she's positioned herself there as underdog, but feeling good about her game and with a chance is about as dangerous as it gets, really. Because I thought today in this match against Goljubic, I was on court for it, the first set. I was thinking, calm down. Like, you're pressing too much here. She was the better player. She had the greater weight of shot. She's got more game than Goljubic, you know? and went up a break, lost it, fell down a break. And I just thought, wow, she's playing as a favourite here and wasn't able, therefore, to quite free up. But I do think against Svantec, that is different because she will be the underdog.

58:06Catherine Whitaker: She's on a 15-match win streak on clay and yet that pales in comparison to what Egan Svantec has done at this tournament and therefore Svantec will go in as the favourite. And I think Kostya is going to relish that. And I think she's going to play really well. And I think Svantec is going to have to play better than she has done this tournament so far. I think she's done enough in the matches she's played.

58:33Matt Roberts: Are you worried about her serve?

58:35Catherine Whitaker: Yes, I am. I've got a stat in the newsletter about her serving numbers, which, you know, just sort of compare the first few rounds of this tournament to when she's won it in the past a little bit. And, yeah, I am because players are breaking her, you know, and Kostya is such a great returner. She returns with such intent, likes to take the ball early, likes to attack. But if I had to pick, I guess I would still just about go Sviontek.

59:09Matt Roberts: Wow, that close.

59:10Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I really think it's close. because Kosti was playing so well. And I think she merits being talked about in terms of someone who can really push Egos Fionting.

59:25Matt Roberts: You've been everywhere today, Matt. I feel like all of these matches I'm going through in this agenda, like Matt was there. How was Matt there? How are you not a sweaty mess? like you were at Teichman Mukhover as well right?

59:42Catherine Whitaker: Oh I had a great time.

59:44Matt Roberts: Tell us about it 6175 for Teichman over poor Karolina Mukhover and her blisters.

59:52Catherine Whitaker: Yeah say that I say I had a great time I did feel very sorry for Mukhover in this one it felt like she'd been ambushed when I got out there to court Suzanne Longland, she was a set down. I thought, how is she a set down to Teichman, you know? And yet, as soon as I got there, I thought, oh, this is how. Because Teichman had a cheer squad. She had a fan club next to the court. You know, like, there's big player boxes, player areas on Longland. And Teichman had filled hers up with her friends, basically. She said it was in the interview, in the press conference afterwards, she talked about how her brother's been here the whole tournament and had a little fan club going.

1:00:38Catherine Whitaker: But for this big match, all her friends flew in this morning and they had songs, chants, and they were going through them one after one. It felt like they were the away team at a football match winning and just going through their chants and mocking the home team. In this instance, was Paul Mukaba. I've never seen that before.

1:00:58Matt Roberts: It was extraordinary. Would you do that for me? If I was in the third round of the French Open. Get some chants going.

1:01:04David Law: Would you fly in and script some chants?

1:01:10Matt Roberts: I'm all there. And get them going. I'm all there. David would just be shouting, baggies.

1:01:16Catherine Whitaker: It looks so fun. Everyone in that box was having a great time. And they kept it going even when she was 5-1 down in the second set. You know, because Mukova did turn it around and start playing the better tennis. But it didn't feel like 5-1, really. Teichman had had chances to break on a couple of occasions. And it was at 5-2 when Mukova had the treatment for her blisters. And from that point onwards, Mukova moved less dynamically around the court, started going for broke a little bit more on her shots. And Teichman just kept believing. And she's a lefty, Teichman. And she's got this forehand that can kick up to the Mukova backhand.

1:01:57Catherine Whitaker: and Mukhofer was having to slice it a lot of the time and not getting a lot on it. And Teichmann was really taking advantage of it. And yeah, it was, I didn't go over there expecting the vibes that I ended up experiencing. And they were basically all coming from that Teichmann box and she was whipping them up and getting them to support her ever more. But with a glint in her eye and a smile on her face, she just, she loved it. You could tell she was absolutely loving that moment. And it did remind me of Billie Jean King Cup, Teichman, from a few years ago, which was...

1:02:33Matt Roberts: Where's she been? Where's she been?

1:02:35David Law: Well, she told us. Yeah, that was my question to her in the press comments. You know, it's four years ago when she reached the fourth round of Ronan Garros and she reached the semifinals in Madrid. She reached the quarterfinals in Rome. I mean, these are proper results in a clay court season and had that great results in Billie Jean King Cup as well. I said, what has happened to you in the intervening four years? And she says, well, it could take quite a long time to explain that, but I'll do my best for you. And the gist is she's played and loved tennis all of her life, and then it all became a bit too much for her is what I got from it, trying her best to be professional every week and to wring out every last drop of potential in her game, working hard and not really getting the results that she wanted.

1:03:28David Law: And she was in the top 100, but she wasn't enjoying it in the way that she had and all the way that she wanted to. So I think it was late last year or early this year, she just decided to stop altogether. She just had a period of time not being a tennis player at all, didn't hit the ball, wasn't injured at that time in a way that would need to stop her, but just wanted to get away from it all. And so she said, I went surfing and I went skiing and I went to Berlin and saw a friend of mine for a few days. And she's got most of her coaching team from Argentina, you know, and she's sort of she just wanted to live in a normal way for a bit and not be a tennis player.

1:04:13So that when she came back to it, her appetite would be there again.

1:04:18David Law: Her love for the game would be back there again. And you could see, I felt, that it is there. I mean, obviously it's easier when you've just had a huge win like that, but I don't think it's a coincidence. Gosh, what a story.

1:04:31Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, it was really interesting. She was so open and upfront about it, wasn't she? And, yeah, I felt she was sort of effectively describing burnout. And she said, I gave myself time, which, you know, tennis players you know they do have It's time for themselves, but it's career focused, you know, and it's one tournament and then another, especially at that ranking around, you know, around 100 on the women's tour. It's not easy.

1:05:03Matt Roberts: Yeah.

1:05:03Catherine Whitaker: You know, it's stressful. And I think just stepping back from it.

1:05:07Matt Roberts: If you don't have a federation behind you, you might not be making a living at 100 in the world on the WCA. Right.

1:05:12Catherine Whitaker: So just being able to step back from it for a few months, I think, you know, we're not talking a sort of huge break here. but enough. And yeah, she seems to have come back rejuvenated. And yeah, it was brilliant to see. As sad as I was for Mukava, Teichman, well, shooting star, eh, David?

1:05:32Matt Roberts: I'm pleased that there's such a sort of positive side to a Mukava going out early story, which just sort of always makes my heart sink, especially seeing, I know it's only blisters, but seeing her get any kind of assistance from the medical staff makes me jumpy. Shout out the ball kid that held up a privacy towel, like a little privacy curtain, around her feet while she was receiving treatment on the blisters. This is an important new development for tennis. We don't need to see the disgusting feet.

1:06:04Catherine Whitaker: Cosign.

1:06:05Matt Roberts: Yeah, no wicky feet for Karolina Mukova.

1:06:09David Law: Can I also just suggest, Catherine, that you maybe follow Jill Teichman around a bit because she's the first person I've seen at this tournament who has been cold. Yes. She had just come out.

1:06:20Matt Roberts: I can't hear about that.

1:06:21David Law: She had just come out of the ice bath and she was sitting there in the press conference room shivering, wasn't she?

1:06:27Matt Roberts: Actually, Andrei Rublev did that a couple of days ago as well and they almost walked out in disgust. I can't, like, give me an ice bath.

1:06:36David Law: I couldn't do an ice bath.

1:06:39Matt Roberts: I could sit and sit and have my laptop at the moment if you converted my desk area, if you plunged my seat into an ice bath, I would spend the day in it.

1:06:51David Law: Not sure that the old laptop would be looking too good after that. I'd jump out my skin if I went in an ice bath.

1:06:58Matt Roberts: I don't think they make them big enough, so we're probably safe. It's Miran Draver next for Jill Teichman. She beat Buzkova today, 6-4, 6-2. Very drama-free run through this tournament so far, Andre, I know bigger tests lie ahead.

1:07:15Catherine Whitaker: I think the biggest test might be Teichman's fan club. They could rile her up. They could make it a bit Lois Boisson.

1:07:21David Law: And the rest, you know, she lost one at the US Open as well, an issue with the crowd going. It's been a tough scene for her the last year. But, I mean, it's a relatively small group. They just punch above their weight and their songs go, Oh, Jill Teichman.

1:07:39Matt Roberts: You've got to have a name that fits into that melody Haven't you I think mine's a bit long I think you'd need to write something bespoke

1:07:47David Law: Catherine where to go

1:07:51Matt Roberts: Okay well we'll workshop that I think we've got time Before I reach a Grand Slam Third round We'll work on some songs It was

1:08:00Catherine Whitaker: It was old Julia Pelka when she hit an ace Which I enjoyed

1:08:07David Law: How does a pelk get in the ice bath? Anyway, move on.

1:08:12Matt Roberts: So Teichman against Andreva. We also have a fourth round of Saronica Steyer against Wang Ji-yu. So Wang Ji-yu has come through qualifying and reached the second week. So that's a six-match winning streak for her. Beat Yulia Starob Dubtsava today, 6-3, 7-5. Saronica Steyer continues her utterly extraordinary retirement year at the age of 36. She beat Solana Sierra today. Six love, six love.

1:08:43Catherine Whitaker: Didn't see it. Was obviously tracking the score. Something Matt Roberts didn't see. Yeah, I'll be honest, I didn't see the rest of the day's play. Everything else on this agenda is something I didn't see.

1:08:54Matt Roberts: Okay. Well, if anybody's still listening, let's carry on. Alina Svitolina's victory over Tamara Korpach, 6-2, 6-3. Did you see Tamara Korpach walk out at the start of this match, Matt?

1:09:09Catherine Whitaker: I did. She had the shades on.

1:09:11Matt Roberts: Yeah, she had Luciano Darderi shades on. I know that's her thing. She plays in them, but she was standing in this dark tunnel pre-match wearing the shades, and it was all...

1:09:21Catherine Whitaker: That's our Tamara.

1:09:22Matt Roberts: It was very Luciano Darderi. She's got a great dog, this Tamara Korpach. great dog. That's what I learned about it. She's gone up in your estimations. She has a bit. I mean, I wasn't quite sure about the tennis today, but the dog was a 10 out of 10.

1:09:38David Law: I saw Catherine blank a dog today on the way back home.

1:09:41Matt Roberts: I was ordering galettes.

1:09:44David Law: That wouldn't normally stop you, though.

1:09:47Matt Roberts: You bet the restaurants were closing.

1:09:48David Law: Right.

1:09:49Matt Roberts: I was deadline Djokovic.

1:09:51David Law: The dog chased us and everything.

1:09:53Matt Roberts: Yeah, they know. They know I'm their people. They do, yeah. Yeah.

1:09:57David Law: Wow.

1:09:58Matt Roberts: It was a one-off. very unique circumstances. Svitolina, I just, I mean, she was great today. It was all very, very no nonsense. I saw Andrew Bettles briefly, her coach after the match, actually, and he was, you know, I was with Pam Shriver, name drop. But Pam congratulated Andrew Bettles and said, you know, you're doing a brilliant job. And he was like, well, it's easy when the person you're responsible for is Alina Svitolina. Like, yeah, she makes it easy for me to do a good job. She was stretching out her back a little bit in the start of the second set. She was fine, but it was only Tamara Korpach.

1:10:43Matt Roberts: Like, I've just circled that. I've just put a pin in that. Could be nothing. But she has played a lot of tennis. So I'm just cautiously mentioning that because she's got Belinda Bencic next, and that is a step up. I know this isn't Bencic's preferred surface, but she can play on it.

1:11:04David Law: This has certainly made a mockery of my Peyton Stearns to beat her prediction.

1:11:09Matt Roberts: Is that what you had today?

1:11:10David Law: I did, yeah. I've had a couple of shockers.

1:11:13Matt Roberts: Do you remember the guy in the chat of one of our live shows just over a year ago? I do. He was absolutely insistent that Peyton Stearns was going to win the French Open.

1:11:22David Law: Maybe he meant 20...

1:11:23Matt Roberts: No, she lost today, didn't he?

1:11:25David Law: 2032.

1:11:26Matt Roberts: Oh, okay. maybe maybe he's not wrong he's just early like you with Fonseca he was called

1:11:33Catherine Whitaker: Ghost of Geralitis yeah

1:11:35David Law: good name maybe he just hasn't got a clue

1:11:38Catherine Whitaker: yeah I think that she went out in the first round didn't she last year

1:11:44Matt Roberts: last bit of business to cover from the women's draw today happened in the doubles early doors Zeynep Sonmez the Turkish player who actually I interviewed for Tennis Podcast Meets on the eve of this tournament. She went out in the first round in the singles but was in doubles action today and she had an awful fall at the back of the court tripping over one of these sponsor advertising blocks that they have at the back of the court. They serve no other purpose than to display the name and logo of the sponsor. And, you know, we've discussed in other contexts this week the fact that a lot of these outside courts don't have as much space at the back of them as a lot of players would like.

1:12:32Matt Roberts: You know, they are making full use of the space and they don't want to be thinking about, you know, whether they could trip over something at the back of the court. And people have been doing that. We had Alexander Blocks tripping over the covers, the tarps at the back of the court. He apparently is considering legal action about that because his injury seems to be quite bad today. We had Zeynep Somers tripping seemingly really badly at the back of the court. And Katie Bolter picked up on this on social media. She clearly had a very near miss in her match against Potapova yesterday. And she said, these things have to go in caps.

1:13:14Matt Roberts: She said, I got lucky last night, but next time I might not be. And this was something that, you know, as a result of Katie Bolter and other players getting involved, did gather a real head of steam over the course of the day, such that the tournament responded with a statement earlier on this evening. They said the Roland Garros tournament organisers have taken note of some of the players' feedback regarding to the court setup. We have taken this feedback into account and are maintaining ongoing communication with the players and their teams. The stadium complex was modernised during the 2018-19 season.

1:13:47Matt Roberts: All Roland Garros courts currently exceed the international circuit minimum requirements regarding the distance between the baseline and the back of the court, which is set at 6.4 metres. However, the tournament's priority remains the wellbeing of the players taking part. With this in mind, and based on our own observations, adjustments are currently being made to the area around the playing surface. So like a really sort of defensive paragraph and then a, okay, but we'll change it, which is totally the right outcome. Definitely the least funny of the two FFT statements that we're going to be reading out on today's show.

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1:15:40Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three. of today's tennis podcast. It's been another bumper one. Do you remember, David, on the little Instagram video we did on the walk-in today when you promised a calmer day? Oh, yeah.

1:15:52David Law: I can't get everything right.

1:15:55Matt Roberts: I'm offering you the option to ditch Muscatara the day today.

1:16:00David Law: Sure.

1:16:00Matt Roberts: There were no singles winners. We do have three doubles options. There's an Edouard Roger Vasselin. There's a Kiki Mladenovic. There's a Droguet Gaston pairing. those are your options or you can give it to Conte Alise for winning a set against Alexander Zverev

1:16:16Catherine Whitaker: I have no strong feelings happy to ditch

1:16:19Matt Roberts: another opportunity missed to give it to a woman I think I think Matt's showing his true colours yeah we'll ditch it okay let's move on shall we just before we get to tomorrow's order of play a story that again gathered a real head of steam over the course of today. My jaw dropped to the floor when I saw this break in Clay magazine last night. Adolfo Daniel Vallejo, remember him? Got beaten by Moisa Kwame in five sets yesterday. Well, he had things to say after that match. Those things being that the match should have been umpired by a man because women find working with a demanding crowd, quote, very difficult.

1:17:10Matt Roberts: Quote, this sort of match needs to be umpired by a man. It's very difficult for a woman to do it. It has to be refereed by a man because it's a very demanding crowd and you need a lot of strength to go against the crowd. This has been very widely reported today. Not nearly enough of that reporting has mentioned the fact that Vallejo lost to McCartney Kessler in the one point slam in Australia earlier this year. That feels like crucial information to me. I mean, obviously, like. Absolute like what a moron. I mean, I wasn't going to cover this story except for the FFT coming in with the statement, which is the real piece de resistance here.

1:17:59Matt Roberts: Wait for it, folks. this evening because this story was gathering ahead of steam we had a statement from the French Tennis Federation describing the comments from Vallejo as unacceptable and confirming that he would be fined for them brace yourselves here folks hold on to your hats quote the comfort the competence of an umpire is not determined by their gender but by their professionalism and ability to officiate at the highest level. The outcome of a sporting event, whether positive or negative, can never justify or excuse such remarks. Fine. Yeah, all good. They go on to say, the Roland Garros tournament strongly condemns all sexist remarks, regardless of who makes them, and offers its support to the match umpire and more broadly to all the tournament's umpiring officials.

1:19:04Catherine Whitaker: The regardless of who makes them is bait. It really is.

1:19:13Matt Roberts: Yeah, they want me to take the bait, don't they? Oh, they do. Maybe I'll rise above on this occasion because there is going to be an Amelie Muresmo press conference at some point in this tournament. So maybe I'll keep it all in until then. Incidentally, it does remind me of some reporting by Ava Wallace earlier on in the tournament that we just haven't had opportunity to mention, given the volume of stories that have been unfolded, that the new WTA chair, Valerie Camillo, did meet, requested to meet with tournament director Emily Moresmo before the French Open began in order to complain about, make her case, ask for explanations about the poor scheduling of women at this tournament, the poor treatment of women at this tournament.

1:20:06Matt Roberts: We don't know how that meeting went. You can probably imagine how that meeting went, but we don't have a transcript for it or anything or report on it. But the meeting did happen.

1:20:16Catherine Whitaker: Willing to bet the words holistic approach were used.

1:20:21Matt Roberts: Attractivity Okay Tomorrow's Order of play folks Day 7 of The French Open we open On Chattier with a men's match Flavio Caballi against Lerner Tien I mean it's so

1:20:38Catherine Whitaker: Fascinating now in the With the two draws we have You know in the women's draw We're used to almost every Match feeling consequential right and really meaningful for the tournament and we have i think five major champions still left in the women's draw and others who've been to semis and finals like the women's draw remains stacked plus with that jeopardy that we're just so used to what's interesting about the men's draw is okay it's not stacked with the with the names but we do now have the jeopardy and a match like Kabbali TN third round feels like the winner of that could plot a path through to the final of this tournament you know like that's that's how consequential that that match is first up and that

1:21:26Matt Roberts: is pretty refreshing and exciting I know which of the two I feel is less likely to shit the bed

1:21:39David Law: yeah me too but

1:21:43Matt Roberts: Caballi guy till I die second on Chatrier tomorrow, Deanne Parry can't get off Chatrier, this is her third match in a row there, this time against Amanda Anisimova, making her

1:21:54David Law: pitch for musketeer of the day and the fourth round

1:22:00Catherine Whitaker: still won't be picking her if she wins

1:22:04Matt Roberts: third on Chattreau tomorrow Coco Goff against Anastasia Potapova I'm sure you're hearing here like oh that match sounds great that match sounds great these could all have been contenders for what the tournament calls the match of the day in the night session what have they chosen for the night session I hear you cry again hold on to your hats folks it is the big Felix Auger Eliassime against Brandon Nakashima I've had some laughs today, but this might have been the biggest.

1:22:36David Law: Yes. I don't know. I mean, if the WTA chief did meet with Amelie Maresma before the tournament, what on earth are they talking about? Because they haven't had a women's match in the night session since 2023. Oh. How far down do you have to go? I wonder, you know, how many players have to get knocked out of the men's straw to get a woman on the night?

1:22:59Matt Roberts: I literally don't think, I mean, look, we don't need to get into this now. It is 20 plus two in the morning. If they were ever going to, it would have been Lois Brasson last year, right? In those circumstances with Prime asking for it, it didn't happen. I really don't think there's any circumstance in which they would put a women's match. They just don't. It's not something they even consider, I don't think.

1:23:25David Law: And no offence to Phyllis Ojeala Seaman. He's had a really good year. He's got himself to fourth seed. But, you know, there's some seriously big names in the women's draw there. And there's Osaka against Jovic.

1:23:38Matt Roberts: You know, there's bigger names in the men's draw.

1:23:40David Law: Loads of matches on.

1:23:42Matt Roberts: I'd be seeking a refund. Not everyone would be. But if that was, I mean, look, I wouldn't buy a night session ticket, right? Like, I just think a session of only one match is silly. But in the university in which I had, and I discovered that it was Orgelia Seem Nakashima, I'd be getting myself on StubHub. Longland tomorrow, great matches. Jovic against Osaka, first up. Second on Sabalenka-Casikina, third on. And this is a bit of a stitch up. I mean, look, I love that this is on Longland. The atmosphere is going to be amazing. All other things aside, love the scheduling here of Moisa Kwame against Alejandro Tabilo.

1:24:25Matt Roberts: Kwame is a PSG fan. this is the clashing with the Champions League finals slot

1:24:31Catherine Whitaker: yeah I mean the Champions League finals starts here at 6 o 'clock is that right

1:24:37Matt Roberts: he needs some quick

1:24:39Catherine Whitaker: no 5 o 'clock

1:24:40Matt Roberts: 6 o 'clock here 5 o 'clock in the UK he needs some quick women's matches in order to not clap you know press and everything

1:24:49Catherine Whitaker: and he needs to get himself going yeah he played the longest match of the tournament last round Right. What was the phrase that turned my body on?

1:25:01Matt Roberts: Took me a set to turn my body on. Let's see how that goes for Moisa Kwame tomorrow. After him is Francis Tiafoe and Jaime Farrier on Longland. Simon Mathieu opens with Maja Kwalinska against Maria Sakari. Second on Matteo Berrettini against Francisco Comissagne. Berrettini having beaten Arta Rindeknes late last night. and reading a bit about that victory and seeing the post-match interview, it was only then that I clocked that this is Matteo Berrettini's first time playing this tournament since 2021. That is wild. I mean, look, we know he's a cursed player in terms of injury, but my God, can he reach the final?

1:25:54David Law: I'd be surprised. I'd be surprised. But... If he's ever going to. It's all to play for, folks.

1:26:04Matt Roberts: So Berrettini against Comissania is second on Matcha tomorrow, followed by Victorian Boko against Madison Keys. You've got Sarundolo... Excuse me, I have to specify which Sarundolo. Francisco Sarundolo against Zachary Schweider is first on 14. You've got Kalinskaya Osorio there. Arnaldi Collignon, really emotional scenes for Collignon after he beat Ben Shelton yesterday. And on court seven tomorrow, singles action with Diana Schneider against Oleksandra Olinikova. Now expect that to be very intense indeed, given Olinikova's press conference yesterday that we talked about on yesterday's pod. Incidentally, Kostiuk was asked about that today in her press conference, and she said, all power to Olexandra Olenikova.

1:26:51Matt Roberts: I am so impressed with what she's doing and how she's using it to propel her tennis and not impede her tennis. She said, I did that at the start of the war and I cannot do it anymore. She said, I physically, I don't have the energy to do it anymore. I wish I did, but I don't, thank goodness, Olenikova is. And I think that just really shines a light on what a burden Olenekova is taking on by being as bold and brave as she is. So Olenekova-Schneider is on court seven tomorrow, as is Juan Manuel Sorungelo against Martin Lander-Luthe. And that is it. Is tomorrow going to be a calm day, David? No.

1:27:43David Law: There never are. It's going to be another humdinger.

1:27:48Matt Roberts: I sense you might be right. That is the way the 2026 French Open is seeming to roll. Big day for Bashir tomorrow, who, as we know, is on the Moisa Kwame hype train. See our Instagram for evidence of that.

1:28:05Catherine Whitaker: Part of the Kwame army.

1:28:07Matt Roberts: Oh, fantastic. And Bashir is ready for tomorrow. He's been watching more tennis. His fashion-trained eye was very much into Naomi Osaka's glittering outfit. However, he was very confused by the fact that Hodar and Mickelson played five sets in the exact same outfit. Who is who? Bashir. Cosign. Preach. Your takes are bang on, quite frankly. Hello to our mascots, Bodhi, Maisie and Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. No shout outs tonight because it is 2.25 in the morning, folks. But they'll be back tomorrow. We'll be back tomorrow. We are part of the Athletic Podcast Network.

1:28:49Matt Roberts: What a day. Thank you for listening.

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