Has Laver Cup won us over?

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1:01Matt Roberts: Well, hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast on this fine Tuesday, September afternoon. Less than 48 hours after our last podcast, we're straying dangerously close to Grand Slam Daily's territory. But it's good to be back. Matt is here. Hello, Matt.

1:21Catherine Whitaker: hello yes i think it was arvind on the barge asked whether we're going to complete the podcast on every single day of the week in 2025 outside of the majors and i i think tuesday is certainly going a long way to helping us do that we were planning our schedule for the rest of the year we've got one on a saturday coming up so i reckon we can do it with tennis's weird and wonderful scheduling.

1:49Matt Roberts: I mean this might be us doing it right now. I feel like Tuesday is the kind of the most unusual day for us to pod but here we are David committed as ever to having an annual existential chat about the Labour Cup. No I'm not going to have it. I'm going to talk about other things because I've done eight of them. Okay well our first item in the agenda is Labour Cup, David. Fine. I'm going to avoid the existential chat bit. Well, what have you got then? What have you got for us? Entertaining, well run, seemed quite competitive, saw a couple of amazing shots, particularly from Carlos Alcraz. It's about it, really.

2:42Matt Roberts: okay team world defeated team europe 15 to 9 much to the delight of team world and its new captain andre agassi the tournament this year of course being held in san francisco allowing for the single use gag of carlos alcaraz visiting alcatraz island which frankly let's let's all be honest with ourselves, we all enjoyed. It was clinched, the title, by Taylor Fritz for Team World, the ultimate Lever Cup Team World servant. He beat Alexander Zverev, of course, to clinch the victory. If Zverev had won that match, it would have gone down to the deciding doubles because, of course, of how the points are structured and the ratchet system of how points are awarded with the most being awarded for wins on the final day of competition.

3:37Matt Roberts: David's dispensed his takes onto the people. Matt, what have you got?

3:44Catherine Whitaker: Well, it was funny. Labour Cup being in that time zone was kind of a test, I suppose, of how much I wanted to watch it because I think it was starting most days at about 9pm here in the UK. and I watched what was available to me before my bedtime. I didn't stay up specially to watch Leva Cup, but what I watched, I enjoyed. I have to say, as I always do, I always like the event in the moment. I think it looks good. I think the content that it produces is really entertaining. I find it quite frustrating that here in the UK, we watch it on TNT now and they go to ads during the changeovers which the best bit you know which for me are some of the absolute best bits um and then you know I I caught up in the morning and and watched you know highlights and and enjoyed what I saw and what I saw was Pat Crowds um Carlos Alcaraz doing well mostly Carlos Alcaraz things uh there was one moment where he got taken apart by Taylor Fritz in straight sets which was a very un-Carlos Alcaraz thing but he also was in a bit of a nose strip era and I think not feeling particularly well for the first couple of days of this event before turning it on the final day.

5:12Catherine Whitaker: And that cost the content

5:12Matt Roberts: a bit didn't it because he was sort of separating himself a bit from everybody else because he was clearly a bit ill but that meant sort of less Carlos Alcaraz hanging out with other tennis players and being a vibe content which is

5:27Catherine Whitaker: which was a shame

5:28Matt Roberts: yeah which is a lot of what the Labour Cup's about

5:31Catherine Whitaker: yeah I think I enjoyed the slightly freshened up nature of it with the new captains this year you know I think Agassi in particular was really into it and the bits of advice that I did see him giving I thought was really kind of insightful Yannick and Noah had a different approach to captaincy should we say um taking it a little bit less seriously i think on the whole but you know i i think that was needed for the event to get those those new captains in to freshen it up um i also don't really want to go into the whole what does it mean thing i feel like we've done that chat to death i think it's a pretty unique event in the tennis calendar I always enjoy it and then I kind of move on from it and I'll enjoy it again next year that is that's kind of where I am with with Labour Cup

6:33Matt Roberts: yeah look I'm not desperate to get into it either and we're not going to it's only the fact that you sort of just inevitably by being on social media at all during Labour Cup time of year get exposed to the sort of very aggressive propaganda takes of people that are just desperate to convince you and gaslight you into how meaningful this is and that just it just riles me up and it makes me want to sort of pop back but we've had seven previous Labour Cup podcasts on which to do that and I don't it ends up me being kind of more negative about the event than I than I really want to be. I just don't think that Carlos Alcaraz losing that match to Taylor Fritz means absolutely anything in the actual sporting world.

7:20Matt Roberts: If you start speeding him at slams and on tour, I'll eat my words happily. They might meet in the final of Tokyo this week, mightn't they? I did enjoy the moment, the clip that's been circulating of Carlos Alcaraz turning off the TV that was showing the celebrations of Team World on it after they won I really did enjoy that clip very relatable stuff from Alcaraz just one little tennis insight that I got from it kind of off the courts was the news that Alexander Zverev had had injections in his back since the US Open and that doesn't sound great for him I mean he didn't win a set either and yes maybe he might put more in in certain other events he looked like he was trying hard to me and he's just he's way short and and if his back's a problem then then that's kind of new isn't it in his career I mean he's he had that very serious ankle injury but usually he's a bit of a physical kind of monster really in terms of his ability to just keep on going but yeah that's not good I did see a stat about his first serve percentage being quite considerably down on his average which that would all check out wouldn't it and that high first serve percentage is one of the kind of the bedrocks of his game isn't it I don't think he's got enough else to fall back on that he can afford to lose that um okay well those are our those are our takes dispensed let's hear shall we from somebody who was there uh in san francisco taking in the labor cup and has sent us some reportage from the ground in san francisco it's a brilliant voice note from the athletics matt futterman hey there friends greetings from california sorry if i sound a little fuzzy i didn't travel with my fancy new microphone.

9:26It's a little heavy, and you know my rules about limiting myself to hand luggage only. Anyway, we'll make do. I don't share a lot in common with Patrick Rafter. I mean, we both like a lot of the same things. Tennis, surfing, beer. He just handles all of them better than I do, I'm pretty sure. But we both came to the labor cup with the same attitude, I think. We traveled from opposite directions with the same level of skepticism. It was his first go-round as vice captain. It was my first go-round as a reporter on assignment at this event that is still searching for its identity. The Ryder Cup of Tennis is fine for PowerPoint presentations when you're trying to raise money.

10:04It's not great when you're eight years into a venture. Plus, I've been to the Ryder Cup. It's deadly serious business. Maybe too serious, but it is serious. This is not quite that. The day before the start of the Labor Cup, everyone involved, Especially Rafter Had the air of the misbehaving boys at elementary school On a day when a substitute teacher is running things Irreverent doesn't begin to describe it It was just a bunch of goofing off It wasn't clear if many of them even knew the rules Or how or when the lineups got selected They were all acting like they were too cool for any of this Even to learn the rules Rafter announced that his team wouldn't be selecting the matchups on Saturday Completely unaware that is supposed to be kept under wraps for strategic reasons until after play ends on day one.

10:52Oops. Frankly, I was wondering why I had flown across the country for what showed every signal of hitting and giggling. If they didn't care, why should I? Should I just bail? I went for a run on the San Francisco waterfront Friday morning. It's one of the most beautiful harbors in the world. There was the Golden Gate Bridge in the hills of Marin County. That helped my spirits. Then the ball started to fly at noon. Almost instantly, everything changed. Very quickly, it became clear that these players can't really help themselves, even when they feel like they're too cool for something. If there's something on the line, they compete.

11:29It's like oxygen to them. Suddenly, they're flying off the bench. Taylor Fritz and Carlos Alcaraz were hovering over their teammates, giving all kinds of advice. I plugged in my headphones to listen to the constant stream from both benches. It's one of the master strokes of this event Listening to players talk tennis with other players And pump each other up in real time And since they have to sit and watch most of every match It's not the sort of thing you can really fake for 7 hours That was my gateway drug And it didn't take long before I was totally hooked And so were they They definitely weren't faking when they exploded off their couches When Alcaraz hit the most ridiculous drop volley in the history of drop valleys He drop-shotted a guy standing at the net six feet away Alex Mickelson is long and pretty fast And never had a prayer of getting to the ball It's pure genius Look, I really wish this event had women in it I've always thought that was a big missed opportunity for Federer Who dreamed up the whole thing with Tony Godzik, his business partner Four men and four women on each team And mixed doubles would be really cool Other than that I can't say I have a lot of negative notes on the Labor Cup.

12:41I'm as surprised as anyone to be saying that. I feel like they have made so many great decisions. And seriously, who actually cares what I think? There were 18 ,000 fans paying a lot of money packing the Chase Center for five consecutive sessions. And it was packed, even during the day on Friday. This wasn't one of those sellouts where people buy tickets and only come to a couple of matches. Just like it did for the mixed doubles at the U.S. Open, The market speaks loudly in favor of some innovation in tennis And I hope the folks who run the traditional tournaments are paying attention I'm totally sold on best of three with match tie breaks for the third set I want them everywhere now except the slams But talk to me in a couple years Because I might want them there too It's very simple The tension gets turned up quickly and never stops rising Unless the player who wins the first set runs away with the second In the traditional best of three format, there's a fight for the first set.

13:39And then there's really only one player with much on the line in the second. With a match tiebreak looming, the player who won the first set really, really does not want to lose the second. It's actually a terrible, terrible option, especially losing it late. And when that happens, it's game on. The whole thing is on the line in the next 10 minutes. There's no lull during the first half of any set, especially a third set. Also, at this level, anyone can win a set of tennis against anyone else. Then there's the tie break, which is basically a coin flip, unless Arena Sablanca is playing it, of course.

14:16I loved it. I was very aware that when I stepped away to do an interview or grab food or go to the bathroom, that I might very likely be missing something that felt important. That's different. I loved the coaches on the court. I want them there in every tournament. Humans interacting with humans. It just makes everything more dramatic. Who knew? And as I mentioned before, the ability to hear what they are saying is fascinating, even if they don't have much worthwhile to say. Maybe especially if they don't have anything worthwhile to say. Early on, it was clear that the fact that Yannick Noah barely watches tennis and didn't even bother meeting with or talking to half his team before the week started was a pretty big handicap.

14:57He was at the top of the top of the too cool for school list before the action got underway, and even on Friday when play started. He and Tim Henman seemed to spend most of the changeovers saying the same thing to every player. That's right. Every changeover, every player. Henman, first point, first point. Noah, take your shots. Thanks, guys. That's helpful. On the other hand, Andre Agassi gave every indication that he was completely invested in his player's success. He had so many little tips about positioning and shot selection. I've watched a lot of Alex Dimonor the last five years. I've never seen him use a tennis court like he did this weekend.

15:38I've never seen him attack returns like he did. I've never seen him attack the net like, well, Pat Rafter. He was absolutely ferocious. I was sitting with Federer at one point when Dimonor ripped a forehand. He didn't have that shot when I was playing him, Federer said. Likewise, Fritz didn't just try to hang in baseline exchanges with Alcaraz. He stepped in and attacked them when he saw a chance. He took the ball early and then chased his shot into the net over and over and over. Reminded me of somebody who was sitting on the bench, or a couple guys who were sitting on the bench. I even liked the thing I thought I would hate, the graduated scoring system.

16:15One point for a win on Friday, two for a win Saturday, three on Sunday. It seemed gimmicky. Then again, Ryder Cups, when one team only needs to win one or two of the final day's matches, are empty and over before they begin. Team World needed to win two of four matches to clinch on Sunday. Team Europe needed to win three to force a one-set doubles overtime match. Both seemed very possible, with Alcaraz on the court seemingly all day. And with Zverev coming back late against Fritz in the final match, and a suddenly on-fire Alcaraz, ready to go out for a third time that day for the deciding set of doubles, Fritz getting over the line felt essential.

16:56Winning his first match point felt vital. As for those matches worth just one point on Friday, they felt important in their own way too, especially for the underdog Team World Squad that had lost the first two matches and looked headed for a bloodbath. They needed a win for Team Psyche. They huddled around a very nervous Jaofan Seiko on every changeover, and helped him get what he needed to blow past Flavio Caboli. If you haven't seen a clip of them chanting Fonseca's name on those changeovers as they circled around him, you're in for the treat. That was in the middle of the match, and they did it a lot.

17:31I know I sound like I've swallowed the whole bowl of Kool-Aid. I promise I felt this way a long time before I got the green light to sit with Federer courtside during the second set of Dimonor and Mensik on Sunday. I did enjoy that a lot. As Carlitos would say, I can't lie, I can't lie I've had breakfast with presidents and Nobel Peace Prize winners Having Roger Federer talk me through half a set of tennis was way better But getting back to the matter at hand Who knew a tennis event could fit into a long weekend? Think about it It's mid-September There's two more months of tennis ahead It already feels like it's been a very long year Much of the blame for that falls on those two-week Masters 1000 events and they really are two weeks once you factor in practice days and travel.

18:18Laver Cup was done and dusted in three days, 12 matches, five sessions. And did I mention all those sessions were sold out and filled to capacity? Yeah, I know I did. It bears repeating because the phenomena, fewer sessions, more sellouts, better vibes are related. Every week matches take place somewhere in mostly empty stadiums and tennis. That's the market saying something about what tennis is offering. Again, who cares what I think? I'm just one sports writer in America. But sometimes there really is a wisdom of the crowds. Or the sport can just keep rolling out the same often dreary, draggy format week after week.

18:58I'm not saying blow the whole thing up, but there's really no harm in some fan-friendly experimentation and innovation. I will throw Matt Roberts a bone and use that phrase that coaches used to use to describe Clint Dempsey, the American who played for Fulham. What made him good? He tries shit, they would say Hey tennis, try some shit Some of it won't work But sometimes you might end up with something like that Carlitos drop shot That's all from the Golden State Be well, talk soon

19:29Matt Roberts: Excellent voice note there from Matt Futterman Thank you Matt for that Apparently that's the effect of getting to watch half a set of tennis with Roger Federer and the write-up of that is available now on The Athletic, just below a piece that seems to be about Carlos Alcraz's silver hair, which, you know, read that while you can, because that hair is growing out at a rate of knots. Matt, anything? He's thrown you a Clint Dempsey bone there. Anything you want to react to?

20:04Catherine Whitaker: That boy, Clint Dempsey, scores with his left, he scores with his right, yeah. Love that guy. Love that from Matt Futterman. That Carlos Alcarez drop shot was unbelievable. And the reaction of his team I particularly enjoyed. All sort of jumping up and looking at him as though he's some kind of tennis alien. Because they all know how hard it is to be able to have such soft hands and drop shot a guy who was standing at the net. Yeah, I really did enjoy that moment. Look, I think the point Matt makes generally about tennis's need for innovation, I think, is a great one. You know, we're constantly talking about tennis being a little bit stuck.

20:51And whether the Labour Cup is your dream sort of innovation that you would want to see in the sport,

21:00Catherine Whitaker: I think unquestionably you would have to say that as an innovation it has been pretty successful. And I think it's also notable that Matt was covering the Labour Cup for the first time, his first time going to the event in person. And that is generally what I hear from people who go to the Labour Cup. You know, they enjoy it and they have a good time. And look, none of us have been yet to a Labour Cup. I think it's in London next year, isn't it? So maybe we'll get to experience it ourselves for the first time and be won over by it, maybe a little bit more than we have been seeing it in person.

21:43Catherine Whitaker: But yeah, I think to me, I'm going to go a little bit existential here. And I apologise to David for that. And maybe myself, because I said I wouldn't. But it's almost impossible to talk about a Labour Cup, I think without getting a little bit existential to me there is room in the tennis calendar for an event like the Labour Cup. I've always found the idea of, as Matt said there, trying to call it the Ryder Cup of tennis to be wrong really. because, you know, by vain nature, they've come up with two teams, Europe against the world, that doesn't create any kind of sort of partisanship or rivalry in the same way that Europe versus the US, or, you know, back in the early days of the Ryder Cup, I think it was GB and Ireland versus the US, wasn't it?

22:40Catherine Whitaker: So, you know, right there you had rivalry at the heart of it, and you just don't really get that with the Labour Cup, which I think is a big problem for the event if it wants to be taken as seriously as the Ryder Cup. And also the scoring system is something where I disagree with Matt. I do think the scoring system remains pretty gimmicky. And again, if you want it to be ultra serious, then I think you would just have a normal scoring system. I get why they have it, but I think that scoring system is at odds with trying to call it the Ryder Cup. of tennis but i go back to something that i remember charlie equishare saying on a on a pod maybe it was last year maybe it was two years ago i can't quite remember but when he talked about do we necessarily need tennis to have an ultra serious event at this time of year you know and again this is where the comparison with the rider cup in golf makes it difficult because golf's majors take up 16 days you know there is room in that calendar for another big competitive all-in event i'm not convinced there necessarily is room for that in tennis when the majors are taking up what about 60 days and we already have our team events the davis cup and the billy jenking cup i think where maybe i slightly differ from you two is that and i don't want to put words in your mouth but it's just my general sense over the years is that I don't find the Labour Cup to be so sort of antagonistic to the Davis Cup and the Billie Jean King Cup personally I think there's kind of room for both I would love to see the Davis Cup and the Billie Jean King Cup be even bigger but the fact they're not I don't blame the Labour Cup for that I think the Labour Cup's got a little window in this calendar, which, as Matt said, takes up three days.

24:37Catherine Whitaker: In the early days, it definitely had buy-in from Federer and Nadal, and therefore, I'm watching. Now it seems to have buy-in from Alcaraz. I'm watching. Could the field be better? Yes. Do I have some issues? You know, I think a big one, I still find it uncomfortable seeing Zverev there at the event when some of those allegations against him were made and where we know that sort of commentators on the event were sort of told not to talk about those allegations in the past. You know, I find all that an uncomfortable element of Lever Cup, watching it personally. But I think there's space for it in the calendar.

25:17Catherine Whitaker: I enjoy it in the moment. It doesn't like... I'm not thinking about Lever Cup matches when I come to sort of review the year personally. But people seem to enjoy it. and overall I think it's a sort of well-run event but I do share your takes about please, please stop ramming it down my throat that this is like a mega important event in the tennis calendar because it's not and structurally I don't think it will be without some pretty big changes but the players buy in I think with their captains on the side and their teammates on the side I've never thought it was hit and giggle. Maybe when Guillermo Fiste was there and sort of he was doing a hit and giggle and that whole thing was perhaps a little bit uncomfortable.

26:08Catherine Whitaker: But generally, I do see competitive matches and players wanting to win. And I enjoy it, but it doesn't sort of move me in a big way, if that makes sense. David? Matt, this was held the same week as Billie Jean King Cup. So absolutely it affects Billie Jean King Cup. Now, I realise that Billie Jean King Cup moved itself into this week, but there might be physical room for these events, but is there mental room for multiple team events if you want people to really buy into the Davis Cup and Billie Jean King Cup? when you then look across the way at this mega rich, lavish event, which has got Federer's backing.

26:58Obviously, it's his event. He can do whatever the hell he likes. He's an entrepreneur. But if you care about the sport and you see Davis Cup dying the way it is, by comparison, and you see Andre Agassi making out like this is the most important thing in the world and saying to these players at the end, And, you know, if I pick up the phone, if you pick up the phone to me, the answer is yes before I even answer. OK, well, can you coach me year round, Andre? I'm sure I'm sure the answer wouldn't be yes. Anyway, I see Yannick Noah. When Yannick Noah was the captain of France to that title twice, he spent the whole year planning every element of winning that thing.

27:42Just the way that Luke Donald is trying to go to Bethpage and spending two years of his life. as Matt said he turned up to this he barely even knew who the players were I saw the press comments afterwards they weren't bothered at all they had a lovely week which is absolutely fine and I think that that is the way to view team world were definitely more bothered than Europe and I'm sure that was a sort of top down thing I do think you're right the way to enjoy it is to just enjoy it and stop trying to look for meaning and comparing it and fine, I'll ignore Tony Godstick or whoever it might be saying that it's the Ryder Cup because it's clearly not, right?

28:30But as Matt said, there's thousands and thousands of people turning up and having a lovely time. But I'm afraid it is not helping Davis Cup and Billy Jenkins Cup which are the important team events in tennis. and all of these people who are putting, who are getting paid just enormous sums of money to turn up at this thing when the European team in Ryder Cup just turn up for free because that's the event. Now, I realise Davis Cup teams do get paid, you know, not prize money maybe, but certainly some sort of appearance fee.

29:06Matt Roberts: Nothing like what the Labour Cup are paying. No, and listen, as I said, he's an entrepreneur running a business and he's got massive sponsorship good for him he's made something incredible and and and it's thousands and thousands of people are loving it i just think that's a bit of a shame and and and it's really up to the individual as to whether they enjoy this i i enjoy it a bit to to an extent and i can totally understand why the tens of thousands that turn up enjoy it um but it's not really for me i don't i'm just not that i'm not moved by it and and and i'm i'm pleased for the people that enjoy it and i'm quite happy to move on i just wish something could help the davis cup and the billy jenking cup and you may well say well that's not roger federer's responsibility and it's not but wouldn't it be great if it is a shame though isn't it if you cared about tennis and and you could you that you just decided actually i think we should all get in a room and try and help those events.

30:10Matt Roberts: Roger Federer doesn't really get out of bed for anything in tennis that's not the Labour Cup. And I know he does genuinely believe in it and in the value of it, but you can't disentangle that from the fact that he is commercially invested in it. And that does seem to be what he cares about. It's access to Roger Federer, from what I can gather, from people that are trying to get access to Roger Federer to promote other parts of the sport, the ATP, whatever might be going on. It's, yeah, I'll only do anything or I'll only consider doing anything if there's promotion for the Labour Cup involved. And look, as you say, David, that's good business.

30:56Matt Roberts: If all he's interested in is business, good luck to him, that's fine. He can do what he likes, but I do find it disappointing And I do, I think undoubtedly the event is a tremendous success, but I kind of think whatever Roger, Roger Federer's value and sheen in tennis is so high and will continue to be so high that I kind of think whatever he was putting himself behind would be a success. like it's got the people and the sponsors and everything involved in it because of Roger Federer

31:36Matt Roberts: and I don't know like imagine if just just a fraction of that was put towards something other than the Labour Cup it just doesn't yeah I find it a great a great shame from a from a Federer point of view can I just come back on the Davis Cup and Billie Jean King Cup

31:56Catherine Whitaker: point a little bit because I look I take that point it was in the same week as as the Billie Jean King Cup finals this week as you said David that was a choice from the Billie Jean King Cup finals to go with that week they've not been in direct competition before I think the Davis Cup and the Billie Jean King Cup or Fed Cup as it was then were in decline way before the Labour Cup came along, like way before. I really struggled to see the ultimate connection, really. I know they're team events, but then we don't talk like that about the United Cup. We don't watch the United Cup and say, oh, this is in direct contrast and attack it every year because of the Billie Jean King Cup and the Davis Cup.

32:47Catherine Whitaker: To me, there are much bigger factors as to why the Davis Cup and the Billy Jinking Cup have been reduced in significance than the Lever Cup. I think one of them Matt has touched on in his voice note, the two-week Masters events. I find them way more egregious and way more disruptive to the whole tennis ecosystem than three days of Lever Cup. You know, players are tired. And the incentive to play a big Lever Cup weekend where they get big prize money and it's only three days and it's a short format, I totally get why they're playing that. Totally understand it. It's also a different type of team event.

33:32Catherine Whitaker: You know, it's not country against country. It's star driven. And I just don't see it the same way as you in terms of the competition between Labour Cup and Billie Jean King Cup and Davis Cup.

33:50I'm never watching Labour Cup thinking, oh, this is terrible for the Billie Jean King Cup.

33:56Catherine Whitaker: I mean, there isn't even a women's version of the Labour Cup. I agree with Matt. Be great if there was. I mean, you've got to say it was terrible for it last week. I know that that was Billie Jean King Cup's choice to move itself, but it was swallowed by the Labour Cup in terms of oxygen. It was. I mean, I went on the tennis channel website, tennis.com. I think they were showing both events, and they had basically no coverage of the Billie Jean King Cup and total coverage of the Labour Cup. So, yes, in that sense, but that was the Billie Jean King Cup's choice. And the Tours and the Grand Slams are all stakeholders in this thing.

34:29Matt Roberts: and where does that leave your originals? I believe the reason that the schedule at this time of year, the reason that we're all here on a Tuesday and events are starting on a Wednesday is to provide time for players to get from Labour Cup to ATP events starting this week. Like that is, that's the tour moving for Labour Cup in a way that they don't. But is that Lever Cup's fault? Wouldn't you say that's the Tour's fault

35:05Catherine Whitaker: for not buying into the Davis Cup and the Beliching King Cup?

35:12Matt Roberts: Yeah, but I mean, I would say that, I mean, I think it's the Roger Federer effect. Like, I honestly think that he can just sort of click his fingers and get people to do whatever. And I just resent that some of that isn't going towards the stuff that really, really benefits tennis.

35:31Matt Roberts: and maybe that's not on him but yeah no I kind of feel in between the both of you I don't quite feel oh no we've gone existential yeah I don't quite feel the sort of direct Labour Cup takes away from Billie Jean King Cup and Davies Cup and is a threat to them sort of in quite the same way you do David but I also don't think that I mean there's just too much tennis isn't there it's just way too much tennis like any extra thing on the calendar is like there's just not room for and there's not room for the stuff we've already got like six kings go away anything that comes along with like loads of money behind it is going to take away from the existing tour tennis that we're trying to care about because there just isn't there isn't enough Carlos Alcaraz to go around for all this good I have a point about the two-week Masters 1000s, though, absolutely.

36:30It just feeds into an overall sense of frustration to me that the important stuff isn't really looked after. And then such a massive amount of investment is made in this. And again, it's his own product, but it's made to seem so much bigger than it is because the best photographers are being bought and paid by the event to put out as many pictures as possible. The best videographers are tired to put out as many clips as possible. Good luck to them, but it's just, it's a bit like PR against journalism. It's just not quite right to me. It's a shame.

37:17Matt Roberts: OK, well, that was part one of the show, us not having an existential chat about the Labour Cup. Join us in part two when the plan is to have a chat about the tour events that have happened this week. Who knows what will end up happening, though? See you on the other side. Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income isn't easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real, lots of firms throw a couple of flashy funds your way and call it a day, but not Vanguard. Vanguard bonds are institutional quality.

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39:40Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of the tennis podcast where we're going to try and talk about tennis. Let's start in Seoul and the WTA 500 event that was happening there over the last week won by Iga Svjantek. She beat Ekaterina Alexandrova in a fantastic final. 1-6, 7-6, 7-5, hung right in the balance, right the way through to the end. And it's her 25th career title, Svantec, and that is from 30 finals played. Finals, Igor Svantec, is an absolute beast. She had to play her quarterfinals and semifinals on the same day. They had a lot of rain in Seoul last week. I think she won bagel sets in both of them.

40:27Matt Roberts: Svantec, including one over Barbora Krejcikova. Krejcikova herself had quite a week. she saved match points to beat Emma Adekanu in an extraordinary match in the second round. It was a fun week in Seoul, wasn't it? And it feels, David, like the eager Svantec assault on year-end number one is happening to me. And particularly now that I think Irina Sabalenka is not playing Beijing, which is significant. it's good going from Svantec to I think particularly to kind of race through an event the way she did and then have this absolute scrap in the final you know, that must be quite a gear change to have to go through to be winning the thing easily and then getting in the final and then suddenly you're on the receiving end of what you've been dishing out and you've got to find a way back into it I think that's immensely impressive.

41:31And, yeah, I mean, it was quite a nice sort of storyline as well that her father was competing in the Seoul Olympics back in 88, and she wanted to win at the tournament in that city. And I think that's really quite cool. And she did it and obviously meant a lot too. and yeah, a good final too. What a great final. I thought Alexandreva was excellent. I sort of think she's got that little antidote to that bounding cross-court forehand of Svantec that hurts, say, Insomova and so many other players because she just slams it down the line with the forehand and was really hurting Svantec back. But yeah, got the job done.

42:20And as you said, it's an interesting rankings race now. it's funny you say like final Sviontek because to me this was like very different Iga Sviontek

42:35Catherine Whitaker: final to the one that we usually see from her like I know she's ended up winning it but I think that first set is the worst set I've ever seen Iga Sviontek play in a final it's the first time she's won a final from a set down on the tour you know normally she comes out is playing well and wipes the floor most of the time with whoever she's playing. I know she's had some close great finals as well. But she was so bad in that first set, overhitting constantly and just committing to overhitting, not changing anything up, just constantly coming up with the same unforced errors. And, you know, looking at the stats of this match at the end of it, an absolutely giant of a mental performance from Igor Sviontek.

43:21Catherine Whitaker: She hit fewer aces. She hit more double faults. She hit fewer winners. She hit more unforced errors. She had a worse breakpoint conversion rate. She won way fewer points than Alexandreva. And yet she won the match because she won the big moments, you know. And all along I was kind of thinking, Svantec is more, I'm going to use that word, clutch than Alexandreva, you know. And we saw that repeatedly. end of the second set, Shiontek was very close to losing this match in straight sets and yet she found her serve at the right time at the end of that second set. Took it into a third set, went down a break after losing her serve, hitting three double faults in a game to go down a break in the deciding set.

44:08Catherine Whitaker: But then just dug in and kind of just refused to lose. And yeah, I really enjoyed seeing that side of Igor Shiontek battling in a final like this because I just as I said we haven't seen it all that often it was sort of another string to her bow I think and yeah really enjoyed this final because they'd met what was it three weeks ago at the US Open and it was not a good match it was kind of a really meek performance from Aleksandr. She does that thing a bit Aleksandr where one thing goes against her and she she sulks a little bit but credit to her in this final because she she really played well, I thought, and forced Iguan Svantec to massively raise her level in the big moments.

44:54Catherine Whitaker: So, yeah, a really enjoyable one and, as you said, it keeps the race for number one. I still think Sabalenka's sort of in control of that, but it certainly keeps it interesting for the rest of the season.

45:07Matt Roberts: Yeah, it's very much pole position for Sabalenka even with the Beijing situation. It's a 2 ,500 point gap at the moment. Now, obviously if Shontek wins Beijing over the next couple of weeks, that's 1 ,000 points, and Sablenka isn't going to gain any over that time, so that would reduce it to 1 ,500. Obviously, there's events in the meantime, and there's 1 ,500 points on offer for the winner of the WTA finals. So, look, she's in a kind of Andy Murray 2016 situation, isn't she? She's going to have to rock up everywhere and clean up. But I think she wants it. And I think she's going to do her damnedest to try and get it.

45:56Matt Roberts: And that does, it puts something extra on the line at this stage of the year, which is always what I'm looking for. I'm always searching for stakes at this time of year. So thank you, Iguish Vontek, for providing that. Speaking of matches where the stats really don't tell you the story of the match in terms of the eventual winner not getting the better of any of the stats, let's turn our attention to Chengdu and a final that finished not long ago between Alejandro Tabilo and Lorenzo Muzetti. Tabilo winning 7-6 in the third, having saved two championship points. to be low first and foremost David a guy who has been totally in the wilderness for a good 18 months sort of finally broke through a couple of years ago really announced himself onto the stage yeah that incredible Rome didn't he and we were all mouth agape at the whiplash forehand and then he just disappears And then up he pops totally out of nowhere.

47:05Matt Roberts: I'm sure it's not out of nowhere for him. And this is the product of a lot of a lot of hard work. But for the innocent bystander, this is totally random Alejandro Tabilo popping up out of nowhere. Second lowest ranked title winner of the year, I believe. and the lowest ranked was Jenson Brooksby who's coming back from his suspension and everything. So yeah, incredible week for Tabilo. Well, it's 14 months since Alejandro Tabilo got to his career high ranking of 19 in the world and a couple of weeks ago he was 125 in the world and coming into this tournament he'd won five tour matches all year on the main ATP tour.

47:54Well, he's doubled that this week because he's won five to win this title, plus two in qualifying. So he's basically won a Grand Slam tournament's worth of matches this week. I mean, it shows you how quickly things can change. This will now take him up to 72 in the world. So he's gone 19, 125. Now he's back up to 72. And another little sort of side tangent to how your fortunes can change. Get this, a couple of weeks ago, he played against Juan Manuel Sarundolo in the final of the Challenger in Guangzhou, the Tabilo. And Sarundolo was outside the world's top 200 a year ago. He wins that title, beats Tabilo in the final.

48:42He's now one place lower than Tabilo in the rankings next week. So he'll be 73 in the world to 72 for Tabilo. And in the quarterfinals of that challenger, Surindolo was a set and a breakdown against Britain's Dan Evans, who, you know, if you go back two years, he was 27 in the world. He's now 152 in the world and going around these tournaments, trying to get his ranking up. And he's a set and a break up. he's finally getting some form going and his wrist gets injured. And he's just told me today that he has been told by a specialist he's got to put his wrist in a cast for the next four weeks. So he was convinced going to Asia he would come out of that as a top 100 player again, given the way his form was coming back to him.

49:30And you just don't know when injury is going to strike. And particularly as you get older as well. but then you see these situations like Tabillo this week I mean the look in his eyes and the look on his coach and his girlfriend when he won that title today on the court I mean that makes it all worthwhile that's what they're all after and then suddenly you get this 40 place ranking jump so look I hope that might be in Dan Evans' future as well but it's a tough sport

50:05Matt Roberts: and by contrast Matt Lorenzo Mazzetti pretty bereft after that defeat he's lost I think five finals in a row now this had kind of passed me by a bit the title drought for Lorenzo Mazzetti because it's been all upside really for Mazzetti hasn't it okay you know the hard court progress is still coming, but it does seem to be happening. But his career trajectory has been all upwards for the past few years. And yet he seems to have this title slash final problem. He hasn't won one since 2022.

50:47Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, a guy of Mazzetti's talents and his peaks in terms of his performances at the Slams and the Olympics, you know, to only have two titles to his name. like nowhere near enough really um i think he's slightly found himself in that space where you know he's so good on clay but he's playing kind of the biggest events on clay and therefore winning the actually winning the title is tough you know we've seen him lose to carlos alcaraz this year on the clay a couple of times for example and he got injured during the during the South American clay court swing but then he's not really good enough on the hard courts to regularly be picking up titles so an event like Chengdu where he's the top seed it's all he's caring about really is trying to win the title and get another title and get that winning feeling in a final again and yeah I consider myself a pretty seasoned Lorenzo Mazzetti watcher and that is as sad as I've seen him.

51:56Matt Roberts: I consider you that as well, Matt.

51:57Catherine Whitaker: It's as sad as I've seen him at the end of a match. He was absolutely gutted about this because it got away from him, to be quite honest. You know, he's absolutely strolled through the tournament. OK, he had a bit of a tricky opening match against Prismic, but after that he was dominant. Really just joy to watch in the semis against Shevchenko. And it just felt like this was his time to get the title, get the confidence. But you could see right from the start today, he was a bit more tightly wound, a bit more stressed, I think, because it was the final. And he goes a set down. Tabilo's serve really drops off in the second set and Mazzetti takes advantage of that.

52:39Catherine Whitaker: And you're thinking, okay, right, this is where he maybe takes over. But credit to Tabilo because he upped his serve again in that final set. And it actually became the sort of match I wasn't expecting, really dominated by his serve. You think of these two guys with their crafty games from the back of their court and not necessarily big servers. But he had the two championship points, Mazzetti, on Tabbillo's serve. And Tabbillo saved the first one brilliantly. Big serve, big winner. But then the second one will be the one that Mazzetti will regret, a very, very tight forehand error. Then it goes into a tiebreak and Mazzetti gets 4-1 up in that final set tiebreak and he loses it from there.

53:23Catherine Whitaker: And there's just a slight sense of like, does he need a little bit more bottle? You know, I kind of think that I've thought that in some of his big matches against the very best players. I kind of think he's he's living with them for a lot of it. But does he have just that just that little push that a lot of them have? And maybe he just doesn't quite certainly not on when he's not on clay. and I think just that got a little bit exposed today and yeah, he's gutted. Ultimately, getting to a final on a hard court, it all helps his bid for Turin, which I know is his sort of big goal for the end of the year, but he really wanted that and that was a gutting blow not to be able to win it.

54:13Catherine Whitaker: But credit to Tabillo, as you said, the other stat I found amazing. He won a final set tie break in the first round of qualifying. And then he won a final set tie break in the title match, the final. Like, talk about those sort of sliding doors moments of a career right there. And yeah, he's definitely way better player than his ranking, as David's described. But yeah, I think definitely another one that got away from Mazzetti. And he's going to want to get that title drought over soon.

54:48Matt Roberts: If the video of sad Mazzetti during the trophy ceremony clutching the little panda under his arm, if that pops up on your feed, just only watch it if you're feeling in a stable emotional place, I would say. Because he just, he looks so sad and the little panda's poking out and it's...

55:11Matt Roberts: Over to Hongjo and the ATP 250 that happened there, won by Alexander Bublik, his fourth title of the year. That is the second most behind Carlos Alcaraz. Obviously, that stat comes with the caveat of Yannick Sinner having been on the sidelines for three months of the year. But still, this is by far the career best season of Alexander Bublik. He's won a title on every surface. All of those titles have come in the period since June. And I think he's now up to 16 in the world. Alexander Bublik, ladies and gentlemen. David, your takes. Yeah, I mean, I suppose he's won the Kasparud type titles rather than the Yannick Sinner type titles in order to amass that number.

56:01But listen, that's being churlish and unfair because it is a fantastic run this year that he's been on. And it shows because he's not out of the equation for Turin. You know, he fancies it himself. I mean, he's got some way to make up. He'd have to have a serious run at one of the big events coming up. But it's not out of the question. You know, with his game as well, he's the sort that can hurt people and can win big matches. and he doesn't look like he's out on his feet. You know, he looked quite energetic at the end there. And yeah, I like the fact that he's kind of brought it throughout the last six months, really.

56:48It's not just a couple of weeks run that he's had and he's done it on all these different surfaces, as you say, which is quite interesting that his game works on them all in that regard. So yeah, fair play.

57:01Matt Roberts: beat Valentin Royer in the final two tie-break sets. He's 24, is Royer. He's come from nowhere for me in 2025. I first became aware of him when he beat Sitsapass at Wimbledon. I know that was via retirement, but he seems to be sort of increasingly popping up and being relevant. Obviously, this was a career best result for him on the ATP. And he looked pretty gutted afterwards as well, didn't he? Bublik for Turin. Matt, does it feel possible?

57:41Catherine Whitaker: Well, I think it does because of a couple of the guys ahead of him. Look, we know Jack Draper's shut his season down. And I don't know whether Novak Djokovic is going to play. I mean, I saw today that he's committed to playing in Shanghai. he also said he's going to play Athens didn't he which the final of Athens is the day before the start of the ATP finals so that would be quite a lot of tennis to pack in to that portion so that remains to be seen but Bublik is currently 12 in the race if you were to take certainly Draper out so he's effectively 11 in the race and if you take Djokovic out he's 10 and you know he'd need to probably win another title or certainly be very consistent for the remainder of the season, keeping going deep in some of the big events.

58:33Catherine Whitaker: But there are still a lot of points to play for. And he would be a fun element to add into Turin because, you know, I know he's won these titles at lower level, but I think he has sort of shown that he's quite good at playing the top players. You know, like, I don't think they necessarily want to see Alexander Bublick.

58:55Matt Roberts: Until he's expected to win or to be competitive. Right.

58:58Catherine Whitaker: And then Yannick Sinner absolutely wipes the floor with him. Yeah. But, you know, I'd certainly like his chances more against some of the players in that field than I would sort of the chances of like Hachinov or Rublev, who were sort of around him in the race. but it's going to be a bit of a scrap I think to get those final spots in Turin with Mazzetti De Menor, Auger Aliassime you know so he's definitely in contention let's see

59:38Matt Roberts: Got married this week Auger Aliassime didn't he as did Denis Shapovalov I think a few days before him I spent a long time looking at the pictures of Dennis and Miriam's dog Yahtzee in his little tux I think Yahtzee might be the number one tennis dog at the moment I really do love Yahtzee but probably should mention Wu Yibing who had a fantastic week didn't he in Hangzhou beat Adrian Manorino, Sebastian Corder Daniel Medvedev, fantastic week for him and good to see him back at tour level and making himself relevant again. Just before we move on to part three and a look ahead to events this week, some sad news today from the tennis world that Nikola Pilic has died at the age of 86.

1:00:38Matt Roberts: As a player, he reached the semifinals of Wimbledon in 1967 and the final of the French Open in 1973. He's, of course, probably most associated with the Wimbledon boycott of 73 when 81 of his fellow pros boycotted Wimbledon after Pilic was suspended by the Yugoslav Tennis Federation for not playing in the Davis Cup. Post-playing career, he captained Germany to three Davis Cup titles between 1988 and 1993. He was Croatian but captained Germany. He was also captain of the Croatia side that won in 2005 and played an important role in Serbia's victory in 2010 as well. I wonder, Matt, there can't be many people, if any, that have captained multiple countries to Davis Cup titles.

1:01:29Matt Roberts: just going to dangle that as a potential Pilic inspired stat for you he was one of Novak Djokovic's first coaches and Djokovic's described him as a tennis father and Goran Ivanovic wrote on Instagram thank you for everything Nico we've been through a lot together laughed and cried together argued some but I know that without you I would never have done the things I have done David you would have met Nikki Pilic maybe Yeah, a couple of times. A formidable character and just a great tennis mind and sort of businessman as well. You know, real kind of somebody who inspired a lot of change, I think.

1:02:15A bit of a disruptor and just, yeah, hugely impactful on a lot of different significant tennis names of today. You've mentioned some of them there. I know that Djokovic scoring in Vinicius and yeah, as a player in his own right. But yeah, big, a big loss.

1:02:35Matt Roberts: Okay, that is it for part two. We'll be back in part three to have a look ahead to this week in tennis or the rest of this week in tennis. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the 14500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.

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1:03:55Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of the tennis podcast, where we look ahead to what's going on this week or this week onwards in the tennis world. We have two ATP 500 events starting tomorrow and Thursday. They run for roughly a week and we have the first five days of the 12 day WTA event starting on Wednesday. That is Beijing, of course. Everybody good with that? Everyone feel like they know what they're doing? That's what Hannah wrote on the barge. Yeah, no, me either. Yeah, WTA Beijing starts tomorrow. Main draw starts tomorrow, Wednesday, and it finishes a week on Sunday. Coco Gough is the defending champion.

1:04:42Matt Roberts: It was the event, of course, last year where she showed up with her new coach, Matt Daly, the grip expert and sort of unexpectedly won this huge title very early in her project of working with him. So she's back, of course, with different new coach this year, continuing to work with Gavin McMillan, the biomechanist. Irina Sabalenka, as we've discussed, is not there, but pretty much everybody else is, Matt, And that includes Zhang Xinwen, who is making her return to the tour after surgery, her first tournament since Wimbledon.

1:05:23Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, really excited to see Zhang Xinwen again, to be honest, especially at an event in China. It was obviously a shame that the Billie Jean King Cup finals came maybe a little bit too soon for her. but you know probably keep my expectations in check but let's let's hope that uh that she's injury free and pain free to start with but yeah that's going to be interesting and yeah like just just a great field really I was just going through the through the draw picking out sort of who was in each half and I just sort of ended up listing everyone because everyone's pretty much there um I did note that since I did look at the draw, Alina Svitolina has shut down her season.

1:06:10Matt Roberts: Yeah, quite a tough statement from her.

1:06:13Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, talking about how she hasn't felt herself for a little while and needs time away, really, and time to rest and not be on tour.

1:06:22Matt Roberts: She said, I'm not in the right emotional space and I don't feel ready to play, so I'm therefore ending the season here. Over the years, I've learned a lot about this sport. It isn't about money, fame or rankings. It's about being ready to fight and give your all. Right now, I'm simply not at the level mentally or emotionally to do that. Yeah, wish her well.

1:06:44Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, so, you know, she's a big name missing and no Sabalenka, as we said. But otherwise, great field. And just really interested to see so many players. You know, Coco Gough, how much has changed? You should see how much has improved in the last few weeks where I'm sure there's been some time away, but also some work on the game. Can Igor Sviontek keep it going and keep up this assault on the number one ranking? You know, we've got Anissa Mova back in action after the US Open final. Like, there's just a lot of things to be excited about. Mboko, I saw, name in the field that really sort of lit up.

1:07:23Catherine Whitaker: Because obviously we didn't really get much of her at the US Open with her tough draw against Kraychikova there. Osaka is like really one of the higher seeds now. So that's kind of a sort of new position for her as well. So like a lot to be excited about. I think it's a drawn out event. Like I don't really understand why it's going on for as long as it is. And there's going to be a lot of nothing, I think probably. But you've got the men's event there as well, running not quite at the same time, but at the same venue. I've already seen some practices where Yannick Sinner's been on court with, I think, Raducanu and Xunxin Wen.

1:08:00Catherine Whitaker: So that's always, it's like a combined event, but not a combined event, because the men's event is a 500 and this is a 1 ,000. So again, another sort of scramble, the brain and the mind trying to understand tennis. But the headline is a lot of good players in Beijing and it's going to be a good watch.

1:08:21Matt Roberts: yeah the men's event starts on thursday and finishes on anyone want to guess david do you want to guess when it might finish pick a day tuesday wednesday it finishes wednesday next week uh al graz is the defending champion but he's choosing not to play there he's playing in tokyo um i assume there was a bigger appearance fee check in tokyo that i can only assume Yannick Sinners the top seed he of course lost in the final last year to Alcaraz that incredible final incredible tie break Diminor, Menshik, Hashanov are all in Sinners top half and then Zverev is the second seed in the bottom half with Muzeti, Medvedev, Bublik and Rublev and Rublev plays Kaboli in round one what a first round match

1:09:16Catherine Whitaker: and of course there's a lot of excitement about whether Yannick Sinner's going to have incorporated all this variety into his game that he was talking about after that US Open.

1:09:28Matt Roberts: I mean, he seems mostly to have been doing serving practice.

1:09:31Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, really interesting. Doing a lot of work on his serve. Really interesting video of a drill that he was doing where his coach was standing behind him with his racket and he sort of wasn't allowed to put his arm back and hit that racket. so a lot of sort of little technical changes that maybe we won't notice but a lot of work going into that shot which has let him down a little bit other than the Wimbledon final it's been a bit of a problem for him in the matchup against Alcaraz over the last year so yeah, intrigued to see that shot

1:10:08Matt Roberts: So that's Beijing ATP there's also an ATP 500 event as we said in Tokyo which is where Carlos Alcaraz is playing I think he is, of course, the top seed. He's joined in the top half by father-to-be Caspar Rood. Did you see the funny press conference quote from Rood about being asked about his fiancée being pregnant, David? No. He said, well, I didn't play Wimbledon, so I had some time on my hands. Made a baby. Taylor Fritz is the second seed. he opens against Gabriel Diallo joined in the bottom half by Umber, Runa and Mahatch so potential for a Lever Cup rematch between Alcaraz and Fritz in the final Artific is the defending champion David, happy memories of watching Tokyo for you last year but he's not in the field which is a good thing we don't want Artific coming back from this injury too quickly I was worried when you said he's the defending champion he's not defending thank goodness stay in bed Arta main draw of this David when does this start and finish this is a fun game I haven't got a clue name some days it starts on Wednesday it starts on Wednesday tomorrow when do you think it finishes oh a week on Saturday no Tuesday Tuesday.

1:11:42Matt Roberts: Wednesday to Tuesday. So Beijing Women's is Wednesday to a week Sunday. Beijing Men's is Thursday to Wednesday. And Tokyo is Wednesday to Tuesday. When are we doing a podcast? Enjoy the tennis, everyone. Right. This is this is how we're going to attempt to navigate that absolutely absurd tennis schedule. We have a, our next podcast is a live Q &A show for Friends of the Pod tomorrow. That is at 8pm. We'll be live on YouTube for Friends. It'll also be available as a podcast. If you'd like to join us for that and you're not yet a friend, then of course the link is in our show notes. We also have our next edition of Tennis Relived coming to you in the next week, next Monday, the 29th.

1:12:34Matt Roberts: And it is about Pam Shriver. and of course features Pam Shriver as well as other very special guests as well. It's a show that we are incredibly excited about. It's been in the works for a long time and we're very excited that it is being born unto the world this coming Monday. And then our main show will be back on Wednesday the 1st of October, Wednesday next week when some things will have finished, some things won't have. We think there'll be a good amount of tennis for us to talk about. Yeah, we had a bit of trouble coming up with the podcast schedule for the next couple of weeks. But we've decided on Wednesday.

1:13:14Matt Roberts: And if you can't wait in the meantime, then we have two French shows coming your way. So there you go. Hello to our mascots, Phoebe, Maisie and Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. Should we have some shout outs, Matt?

1:13:31Catherine Whitaker: We have Anne Fitzpatrick from Dublin.

1:13:37Matt Roberts: Hello, Anne. Hi, Anne. E or no E? E. Oh, same church, different pew. So, like Anne Kiothevong. And a bit like Anna Fitzpatrick, who was a Wimbledon Junior finalist in 2007. Wow.

1:14:03Catherine Whitaker: Wow. What happened to her? she got to the women's junior finals that's about it I think she she had a little go on the tour but she I think now works maybe at Loughborough University sort of lecturer I believe so there we are see you did know yeah yeah

1:14:28Matt Roberts: in fact you knew quite a lot like quite a lot LinkedIn's an amazing thing

1:14:37Matt Roberts: Anne, thank you very much for allowing us to delve into David's Mind Palace

1:14:42Catherine Whitaker: Anne says that she celebrated a big birthday in August this year and was chuffed when she stumbled upon the fact that she shares a birthday with Joao Fonseca

1:14:54Matt Roberts: I bet he has fun birthdays You know what I mean? He called Taylor Fritz an idiot in a press conference the other day as a joke because I think Fritz was winding him up. But I did find it quite amusing. Does Fritz understand jokes? Did he get that? I think he went along with it, yeah. OK, good, good. Thank you, Anne.

1:15:22Catherine Whitaker: We've also got Jane Ballman from, of course, New Jersey.

1:15:29Matt Roberts: Hello Jane Hi Jane Bruce's birthday this week Today Is it today? It's today So how appropriate that we would have a new jersey and that's not the term is it? What do we know about Jane?

1:15:48Catherine Whitaker: Jane says that she's a long time listener and as a history and tennis lover especially enjoys Tennis Relived and she wants to give a special shout out to the members of the Barge from the UK who gave so many wonderful recommendations for her trip to London last year.

1:16:06Matt Roberts: Oh, marvellous. I hope you had a wonderful time, Jane. Lovely stuff.

1:16:13Catherine Whitaker: And finally...

1:16:14Matt Roberts: Like Jane, Jane...

1:16:16Catherine Whitaker: Like Jane Peaches Barkovitz.

1:16:19Matt Roberts: Ah, very good, Matt. Very good. yeah no notes and finally

1:16:27Catherine Whitaker: I'm sorry in advance for my pronunciation of this name we have Oz Shio Watana I'm going with

1:16:38Matt Roberts: ooh okay how are we spelling Oz O-S okay Oz do you think Oz

1:16:47Catherine Whitaker: it's quite yeah I do

1:16:50Matt Roberts: yeah it's quite a rock star name mmm and

1:16:53Catherine Whitaker: Oz is a software engineer manager living in Bangkok and has been a devoted pod listener since 2020. Good work.

1:17:06Matt Roberts: Discovered us during the pandemic. Classic. And this year completed a career grand slam in New York. Oh, congratulations, Oz. Amazing moment. Thank you very much. I'm not even going to try and find a tennis Oz. I could just name some Australians.

1:17:32Give us a sensation just for fun.

1:17:37Matt Roberts: Well, we'll give you the OG sensation. I'm going Duckworth.

1:17:44Catherine Whitaker: What's his first name, David? You always struggle with his first name. Is it James? Yeah. I thought you deliberately said that. Oh, I did. I did. Yeah. Because in my head, I've got Jack, but he's a Coronation Street character from the 80s.

1:18:04Matt Roberts: I don't think Oz is going to understand that reference. But I hope you enjoyed it nonetheless, Oz. Oz, Jane, Anne, thank you ever so much for your support of the Tennis Podcast. If you'd like to become a friend, the link, as always, is in our show notes. We are part of the Athletic Podcast Network. we'll be back for friends tomorrow and monday we'll be back with our regular show next wednesday enjoy the tennis chaotic as it might be thanks for listening we'll speak to you soon

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