Has women’s tennis served its purpose for Saudi Arabia?

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1:16Matt Roberts: Well, hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast, Our midweek show covering events so far in Barcelona, Munich, Stuttgart and Rouen, plus a few tidbits of interesting news that we will cover in part three. It is Thursday evening as we record UK time and most of the day's play is done and dusted. So we're kind of at the halfway stage of these events, in theory, at least. on my screen right now is Artifis, who is lighting up the Pista Rafael Nadal's first ever night session. Matt Roberts. What do you think Rafael Nadal would make of that?

2:01Catherine Whitaker: I think I know what he would make of it. Famously when he was playing. Yeah, not a fan of playing at night on clay due to the different conditions. I think he actually thought it was an injury risk playing at night on clay with the way the ball would go through the court and that kind of thing. Yeah, he was definitely not a fan of those night sessions at Roland Garros. He sort of caught the start of them, didn't he, with the end of his career. And I think this session was sort of designed with Carlos Alcaraz in mind. I suspect so, yeah. If you're going to go to one match out of four on the stadium court, they were probably hoping it was Carlos Alcaraz.

2:51Catherine Whitaker: But I have to say, FICE is a pretty good substitute for Carlos Alcaraz and has been playing well tonight. And it is a packed crowd.

3:00Matt Roberts: It is. And look, for that reason, I suspect that this will be the first of very many night sessions in Barcelona because I suspect they're making a lot of money from it. And, you know, once you're making money from something, that genie doesn't go back in the bottle. It tends to sort of mate with other genies. And suddenly there are many genies not going back in bottles. Before we go any further with that analogy or before we get into the quarterfinal lineup in Barcelona, which as soon as Feast gets over the rather inevitable looking finish line against Brandon Nakashima will be complete. Let's start with Carlos Alcaraz, who following a second round, got a bye in the first round, didn't he?

3:50Matt Roberts: So second round, but first match win over Otto Vertanen, 6-4, 6-2 in Barcelona. This was on Tuesday, during which he had a mid-match medical timeout on his wrist. The following day, he withdrew from the tournament. He said, it's a more serious injury than we all expected. And I have to listen to my body so it doesn't affect me in the future. With great sadness, I have to return home and recover as quickly as possible. Matt, on a scale of, well, obviously there was no way he was going to be able to play or it would be sensible to play Barcelona, Madrid, Rome and Roland Garros, he was going to have to withdraw or not play one of them.

4:44Matt Roberts: So this is probably nothing or at the very least something extremely minor covering for a schedule decision. From a scale of that to that medical timeout looked really bad and his face in that press conference when he was talking about the injury looked a bit of a worry. where are you on that scale?

5:08Catherine Whitaker: A three or four like down the bottom end towards the end of not too concerned I think this is mostly about the big picture and the scheduling and being in the best possible prep for Roland Garros I think you know he's had injuries over the last few clay court seasons hasn't he? I think a more serious one in 2024 that really was a worry and he never played his best tennis really that clay court season and still ended up winning the French Open.

5:42Matt Roberts: That was the forearm wasn't it? That was the sleeve year.

5:45Catherine Whitaker: Exactly yeah.

5:47Matt Roberts: And then last year it was adductor?

5:49Catherine Whitaker: It was the adductor yeah yeah.

5:51Matt Roberts: Which my favourite yoga teacher talks about adductors a lot and I'm not entirely sure I know exactly what muscle that is but somewhere down there yeah that did uh hamper him didn't it

6:06Catherine Whitaker: in the Barcelona final last year against Jorgerun and he then didn't play Madrid um it's a I said it the other day it's just such a tricky thing that he's got here you know it's like his his heart and the heart of his country all want to play and want to play and want to see play at these events in Spain Barcelona and Madrid but they are the two events that make the least sense for his clay court schedule Barcelona because it's only a 500 and Madrid because it doesn't really replicate the conditions at Roland Garros because of the altitude so they would definitely be the ones to go if you were trying to cut events but they're the hardest ones for him to just say look I'm not playing even when fully fit because they're in Spain and there's going to exist this

6:58Matt Roberts: tension and in Spain and and owned and run by his management agency which I think is not insignificant they're essentially sort of he's a part he's a stakeholder in the business and and vice versa I suppose and you know look Nadal used to play everything didn't he but

7:21Catherine Whitaker: But it was different back then.

7:23Matt Roberts: It's different now.

7:24Catherine Whitaker: It was different. You know, it was four weeks of tennis for four events back then. He would play Monte Carlo and Barcelona back to back, then have a week off, and then he'd play Rome and Madrid or Rome and Hamburg in his early part of his career back to back. And he would have those weeks built in of rest. Whereas now, if Alcares has to do everything, that's six weeks worth of tennis with Roma and Madrid being two weeks. And I know that there's gaps between matches, but we've heard players talk about the fact that those two-week masters are gruelling because you're on, you're in tournament mode for such a long period of time.

8:04Catherine Whitaker: And I just don't think it's feasible, really, to expect him to play every single clay court event.

8:10Matt Roberts: I don't think he ever has, has he? I don't think he's ever completed the full swing.

8:16Catherine Whitaker: I mean, I do want to say, I do think there was a problem there with the wrist. Like, I'm not saying there's nothing there and there is a little bit of concern. He did have, as you said, quite sort of vigorous treatment on it. And the way he was talking after the match was saying, I've had this sort of thing before on my wrist. And I do remember that with Alcarez. But he thought, OK, he might be able to play through it. But then, you know, he's used that phrase in the press conference It's a little bit more serious than we thought. And he's taken the decision to pull out. So I'm a little bit concerned because, you know, there's something there.

8:55Catherine Whitaker: But I do think it's more a big picture decision. It wouldn't shock me if we don't see him in Madrid. But equally, it also wouldn't be a massive surprise if we did see him. And the sort of 10 days he's going to gain here of rest before his first match in Madrid might be enough. It might be what he was looking for. And in the end, he sort of ticks the box of going to Barcelona and playing and manages to build in a little bit of rest as well. I'm not saying it was his intention to pull out in the second round. But the way, you know, the way it's come to pass, that might happen. I don't know.

9:35Matt Roberts: Thomas Mahatch, the main beneficiary of that retirement, he's into the quarterfinals map, the full quarterfinal lineup in Barcelona. Andrei Rublev against Thomas Machac, Hamad Majerovic against Nuno Borges, Rafael Rodar against Cameron Norrie and Lorenzo Mazzetti against not quite Artifice, but like nine-tenths of Artifice. He's 6-2-5-3 juice on Brandon Nakashima. I'm going to say Artifice and then we can edit this out if things happen and go back and re-record this section at the end of the show. I saw, Matt, a tweet of a screen grab of some bookies odds at the start of today that had Rafael Jodar as the favourite for the Barcelona Open title.

10:33Catherine Whitaker: Wow.

10:34Matt Roberts: Is that bonkers? The hype is real. Yeah. I don't think it's bonkers.

10:41Catherine Whitaker: I mean, I hope it was, as you said, only after Carlos Alcaraz had withdrawn.

10:47Matt Roberts: It was post-Alcaraz. But like last year's French Open semi-finalist is still in.

10:54Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, to me, I would put Mazzetti and Fies right now ahead of Rodar, just on experience really. but Hodder is playing this kind of seek and destroy tennis right he just he's a bit terrifying yeah sea ball hit ball smoke ball is kind of what he does like taking the ball early he is trying to hurt you and I really enjoy that brand of tennis what I would say is that it's been really effective for him he's won he's won 10 sets in a row now going back to his previous tournament and his first couple of matches here without losing more than three games in a set you know he has been destroying people including Munar, Carabelli a couple of times, Muller, Trangliti, Mahatch so I would say that if he were to play a Mazzetti or a Fis even a Rublev like there's a step up there in quality that I just think we've not really seen him tested against in this little run but But, you know, sometimes people are just in form and riding this wave.

12:02Catherine Whitaker: And he does seem to be at the moment. I wouldn't have him as favourite, but I don't think it's like the craziest thing ever. Because Mazzetti has got some doubts in terms of, you know, he just hasn't played all that much. But Fies is just won through. And, yeah, I would still have him above Hoda, I think.

12:24Matt Roberts: Cam Norrie his next opponent Khodar is another step up pledged to try and get in his kitchen

12:32Catherine Whitaker: mmm get in his face yeah

12:35Matt Roberts: said that in an interview with with Richard Connolly Ford for Tennis TV immediately after the match he's such a great interviewer Richard Connolly isn't he and yeah and Cam Norrie can have a bit of edge and egg to him can't he so Big time Yeah Cam Norrie pledging to get in a 19 year old's face I think that could be quite an eggy match I'm quite excited I'm quite excited about a Cam Norrie match Yeah look at you The spirit of David Law The spirit of David Law is on this podcast

13:13Catherine Whitaker: And he's played the role of kind of villain already this week Norrie certainly being the guy that the majority in the stadium did not want to win when he squeezed through against Stan Wawrinka. And then he had a good win against Ethan Quinn, who's been in some good form recently. And he had his own little fan club in that one, Cameron Norrie. He had this group of kids who were really rooting for him. And they were making a lot of noise during that interview that he was doing with Richard Connolly at the side of the court. And he had to tell them in Spanish just to calm down for a moment while he's doing an interview.

13:47Catherine Whitaker: It's Norrie mania out there. yeah I do think Norrie-Joddard is a really fun match for those reasons Norrie does have a bit of age and yeah it's and but but as I said a couple of weeks ago one of the only times before this little run I'd watch Joddard was when he played Norrie in Acapulco and he absolutely destroyed it hit him off the court um so I think that might be a helpful experience for Norrie to have felt the power and won't be shocked by it and just you know if you make it a match and get into it and make it competitive I think your back is uh well his big pair of lungs

14:27Matt Roberts: winner of Rodar Nori to face the winner of Mazzetti against Fies a big yes please to Mazzetti against Fies not the last match on tomorrow's schedule which given Fies has played the night session tonight is yeah not ideal. They've got away with it they've got away with it because he's won so quickly but yeah not great I don't think but fantastic quarterfinal to have Mazzetti against Feast and probably pretty handy for a bunch of reasons for Feast to have had an easy one there because he didn't in his opener did he? He had an absolute epic against Terence Atman. There was umpire aggro. David was hanging on every moment of it, obviously.

15:15Matt Roberts: And he was, you know, Barcelona's falling in love with Artifis. I think in Mazzetti, Matt, I think I said on Monday's show that I was pretty worried about Lorenzo Mazzetti. And I'm not, he's not in the clear with me yet, but I've been quite reassured by his two wins so far. Orlando Luthe and Corentin Moutet he beat earlier on today. I'm just feeling on slightly firmer ground with Ranzo Mazzetti. It feels like this could end up being quite a big week for him in his 2026.

15:49Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, he wasn't originally planning to play Barcelona, but after the early loss to Vachero in Monte Carlo, he took the spot that was kind of reserved for those top players. and I think that was absolutely the right decision. He needs matches, he needs confidence and he was three-love down in his first match against Landaluthe which told you everything about where his game was at and just how much he needed that. And once he overcame that slow start, he really did dominate that one and Moutet is always tricky and there were times today where he really got caught in Moutet's web. Moutet was unable to hit two-handed backhand.

16:30Catherine Whitaker: He's got some sort of problem with his wrist again, and he's only slicing. But actually, it made it complicated for Mazzetti because the slice creates the sorts of rallies that Moutet wants. And OK, Mazzetti's got great hands and craft, but Moutet is just fantastic at all of that. And there are a lot of exchanges that really were on Moutet's terms. But I thought when Mazzetti committed to the attacking tennis, was running around his backhand, hitting the big forehand, And he was looking a lot better than he had done in Monte Carlo. And yeah, the new balls at the end of each set helped him break serve.

17:08Catherine Whitaker: They had a bit extra fizz, a bit extra life in them and sort of helped his power. And there was an absolutely blockbuster rally in this one for him to break at the end of the second set, back and forth. And Mazzetti finished it with an incredible backhand cross-court winner. And yeah, he was a little bit rusty to start with, but he shouted out his mentality in his on-court interview afterwards. And I thought I noted that as well. I thought he could have got down on himself playing Rute, who was whipping it all up. But he focused and that's just what he needed. I think a couple of matches and a couple of wins.

17:43Catherine Whitaker: And yeah, can't wait for Fils-Mazzetti, 3pm UK tomorrow.

17:48Matt Roberts: Yeah. OK. That's the bottom half of the draw. So top half of the quarterfinals, Ryblev against Mahach. Majedovic, Borges. Majedovic got the better of third seed Alex de Menor a couple of days ago, 7-6, 6-4. I know it's not his best surface, Clay, for de Menor, but is he on your... Are you... How many... Are we amber flagging Alex de Menor? Just the polish, the sheet, I don't know, just doesn't seem... the vibes aren't quite right

18:21Catherine Whitaker: no I know I think we often I think we often have this though with Dimon Or like he often comes out of the blocks of a season really good United Cup Australia playing at home he tends to tends to do what you expect of him there and perform he's got a terrible record in the Sunshine Double Indian Wells Miami he's never really played particularly well in didn't again this year and as you said the clay doesn't really suit him I think his his age that he gets in movement is slightly negated because people are sliding into shots and maybe reaching more balls than they do and his flat hits don't don't really penetrate the court so much I'm not waving any flags yet

19:07Matt Roberts: but

19:08Catherine Whitaker: it has been noted that yeah he's definitely not he's definitely not playing as well as he was at the start of the season or end of the season

19:17Matt Roberts: He hasn't got much to defend on grass, has he? Because he had a dip, had a tough time on grass last year, didn't he? He said he was suffering from burnout and historically does really like grass. So there's gains to be had for him there a bit later in the season. Nuno Borges deserves a bit of a moment, doesn't he? Underarm serve winner on match point for him against Thomas Martín Echeverri. prompted a whole article from The Athletic, a real like, you know, one for the indie deep cut tennis fans, this article. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I feel like Pablo Cuevas.

20:02Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, absolutely.

20:03Matt Roberts: Do you remember like when Pablo Cuevas like built your reputation as like the trick shot guy? He was like the Alcaraz of his day. He won shot of the year.

20:11Catherine Whitaker: Yeah.

20:11Matt Roberts: Yeah, Pablo Cuevas. Yeah, Nuno Borges. And I love how underarm serves just really expose people, expose the pearl clutches. Like, if you've got a problem with underarm serves, like, you are the problem.

20:36Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, like, there was booing. People booed him. Why are we still booing people for doing underarm serves?

20:45Matt Roberts: it's a binary sort of idiot

20:47Catherine Whitaker: and well Echeverry did not enjoy it he gave him a very cold handshake I can kind of get it from a opponent's perspective of being pissed off about it of being like I've been caught out there but I think what happens is that mostly they're

21:06Matt Roberts: come on like you would be though Sitsapas did it didn't he at the US Open last year especially on a match point on a match point

21:13Catherine Whitaker: you would be annoyed by that.

21:16Matt Roberts: But it's not fair to be annoyed at your opponent.

21:20Catherine Whitaker: Agreed. You should be just annoyed that it's happened to you.

21:26Matt Roberts: That's such a lame reaction.

21:28Catherine Whitaker: Absolutely. And I was thinking about this, and I don't actually think people have got a problem with an underarm serve per se. If you're a fan of a player and the player that they're playing is going to underarm serve against you all the time, you'd think, well, that's great. That's a really good thing. It's the being caught out by it. It's the element of surprise that people seem to think is like against the rules or against the code, all that kind of thing. But it's not. That's the beauty of it. That's the tactical element of it, especially on clay when people are returning so far back and leaving all that space.

22:08Matt Roberts: or against Daniel Medvedev, it's a stunning tactic.

22:12Catherine Whitaker: And it's not easy to hit a good underarm serve. Like you have to execute that really well. And Borges, who was kind of injured, did it. And he kind of followed it in. I think he was going to underarm serve and serve volley. Yeah, it was wonderful. Loved it. All power to you, Nuno Borges.

22:32Matt Roberts: Absolutely, Nuno. You keep doing you. just last bit of business I think we should touch upon from Barcelona from way back the start of the week first match I watched in Barcelona I think actually just after recording the last pod Jack Draper against Thomas Martin Echeverry poor old Jack Draper cannot catch a break with his body retired in the third set with a knee injury so this is a different injury to the arm injury the bone bruising that's kept him out for that six-month period, but also, he said, caused him to skip Monte Carlo semi-precautionarily, but obviously an indicator that that injury isn't completely in his past.

23:23Matt Roberts: It's a worrying picture, Matt, for Jack Draper, a really worrying picture. I think I'm pretty concerned for him.

23:33Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, me too. his um instagram post was pretty sad the wording of it and the choice of black and white photo it just it just it just painted a very somber picture really and yeah like i remember that for a long time it was the story wasn't it jack draper just can't can't stay fit you know it was often he often fighting his body. And then he had a real period where I thought he'd kind of overcome that. And then obviously the arm injury is the big one. And part of me was relieved that it wasn't the arm. And actually I did think the start of this match against Echeverry, okay, took him a little bit to get going, but he was really swinging aggressively at the ball and he wasn't playing with the sleeve.

24:22Catherine Whitaker: He had a nose strip, but no sleeve. And I thought, okay, maybe that's a good sign

24:30Matt Roberts: you thought nose strip I'm in right I've got some of those

24:34Catherine Whitaker: at hand if he wins the title I can do the pod in a nose strip so you know part of me was relieved but then if you're relieved about it being one injury and not another that's still not a good sign is it we do seem to be really back in that unfortunate period where he just can't catch a break and can't play without injury at the moment. It's a worry.

25:05Matt Roberts: OK, we wish him well, obviously. Heading to Munich now in the ATP 500 there where the quarterfinals are also set. We have top seed, Alexander Zverev, top of the draw. He plays Francisco Sarindolo again. a matchup that we used to think was really tricky for Zverev but latterly hasn't actually been tricky at all for Zverev he's totally turned that matchup on its head

25:37Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, big time they played seven times and Sarundolo won the first three and Zverev's won the last four interestingly all of Sarundolo's wins have been on clay and all of Zverev's wins have been on hard court. Like it's tipped as the surface has changed. But I don't know, there's just been something about the way Surundolo has played Zverev recently

26:03Matt Roberts: where you used to think he was a guy

26:07Catherine Whitaker: who knew how to play Zverev and would show up against him. And actually that has been not the case at all. He's had a lot of those matches, Surundolo, where he's not been feeling the ball and they've been pretty tame losses really.

26:20Matt Roberts: He's got a big, he's one of those big gaps between floor and ceiling players, Sarindolo. Sometimes he can look like.

26:29Catherine Whitaker: And you can tell early.

26:30Matt Roberts: He's got no feel on the ball at all. Yeah. There's no hiding it.

26:37Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. And sometimes, as you said, he's really dangerous. And the forehand, when it's firing, is one of the biggest on tour. Sure. Zverev had to fight through against Ketsmanovic in his first match, 7-6 in the third. Absolutely outrageous tweener volley that Zverev hit at 4-1 in that final set tie break. It clipped off the neck cord and he adjusted really well. And at the last second pulled off a sort of forward tweener volley. It was kind of the only shot he had and he made it. And, you know, the crowd were up with him. But David kind of called it. He was watching this one and he was saying that If Zverev can get through that against Ketsmanovic He's played him tough It was that part of the week in Munich where it was cold Like really cold Everyone's wrapped up

27:27Matt Roberts: I was rowing back on all of my roof agendas Get this indoors Put this clay court tournament indoors immediately What on earth are they playing at? It was making me feel cold just looking at it

27:44Catherine Whitaker: In my bones.

27:45Matt Roberts: Tennis shouldn't look like that.

27:47Catherine Whitaker: No. But it just seemed like a match that Svev had to get through in those conditions against a tough opponent. He did get it through. And David was like, he'll probably be kind of locked in and fine now.

27:59Matt Roberts: Had it last year against Greeksport, didn't he?

28:02Catherine Whitaker: And he's thrashed Diallo today. And the sun was out. And it looked like a different place in Munich today.

28:10Matt Roberts: Yeah, banish the roofs. So Zverev, Sarondolo to face the winner of Kabbali, Kapriva. Very, very difficult match for me watching Kabbali beat Berg's. My two guys, my two new signings and my fantasy team. Well, not, I mean, my whole fantasy. I don't think I've got any returning players from last year's shit show. But I'm a Kabbali guy and I'm a Berg's guy. Really, I feel a lot of affection for them both. But it does look a bit like Kabbali's having one of those weeks where he's... Yeah. Good.

28:43Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah, he didn't need a very dramatic tie break this time to beat Berg's. Of course, I was excited for this match because the last time I saw it, it was one of the best matches I'd ever seen.

28:55Matt Roberts: Yeah, that was when I decided, right, I'm having both these guys on my team next year. Yeah. It was the match that, I mean, maybe it had been percolating in his mind for a while, but I feel like it was the match that precipitated the Hulk tattoo.

29:09Catherine Whitaker: For sure. Yeah, yeah. That was when he could justify it. After all his gym sessions.

29:17Matt Roberts: The premature Hulk tattoo. So the Bergs match precipitated or preceded the Hulk tattoo and the Hulk tattoo preceded the loss to Jack Pennington Jones. That's the sequence of events. Yeah, exactly.

29:34Catherine Whitaker: With some watery shits in there as well. Yeah.

29:40Matt Roberts: it's a real rollercoaster being a cabali guy but yeah sorry i interrupted you he's he's it's looking like one of those weeks that you've got to savour as a cabali guy where he looks on it and and if it does end up being zverev cabali in the semis you know zverev's favorite for that but on the base of what i've seen so far from cabali i would

30:01Catherine Whitaker: be interested in that much and when i watch you know munich at the start of the week and it's so cold and damp and everyone's wrapped up and then you go to Barcelona and it and it looks pretty glorious I'm thinking why you know why as a player would you go to Munich over Barcelona but then I did see uh last night that Caballi and Shelton went to the Bayern Munich Real Madrid game together and saw an absolute classic in the Champions League so I feel like that's probably justified the decision.

30:36Matt Roberts: You see Alcaraz went to the Rosalia concert. I loved that. I've been trying to get tickets to see her at the O2. Anyway, I'm sure Alcaraz had the same ticketmaster woes that I'm constantly facing. Bottom half of the draw, Denis Shapovalov against Alex... Alex? I'm having a Rublev moment again. Alex Molchan, the winner of that to face the winner of Joel Fonseca against Ben Shelton. That's the matchup that's jumping out of the quarterfinals for sure, right?

31:18Catherine Whitaker: And it's jumping out to Shelton. I enjoyed his interview where he was like, yeah, we're both entertainers. I think that's going to be a fun one. He was excited to play him, I think. and another interesting match for Fonseca which said he keeps running into big names at the moment which I think is a sign that he's playing well he's not losing to people that he should be beating and he's lost these matches that he's played against Alcarez and Sinner and Zverev I do think Shelton on clay is probably his best chance yet to score one of those big wins

31:58Matt Roberts: I watched a bit of him against Rinder Kinesh, obviously he played Rinder Kinesh in Monte Carlo and I think that helped, but he looked really comfortable to me against Rinder Kinesh I was pretty convinced by him, he was getting a lot of cold conditions, he was still getting a lot of work on the ball like his shots, obviously the forehand but still just penetrating so much and the kick. I mean, Rinder Kinesh is tall, like really tall and gangly and he was still able to get his spins rearing up on Rinder Kinesh. So I'm really, really pumped for Fonseca against Ben Shelton. I feel like we should touch upon the first round loss for Stefanos Sitsapas.

32:55Matt Roberts: Lost to Fabian Marajan, 367664. In the live rankings now, Matt, Stefanos Tsitsipas, who, as we covered on our Tennis Relived show for Friends yesterday, was one match away from world number one in 2023, three years ago. He's now down to 78 in the live rankings. He's below Marco Trunjaliti. it's it's a it's a really sad state of affairs currently for sit to pass and it doesn't it doesn't feel like this is the kind of hitting rock bottom before the inevitable before the inevitable rise back to somewhere near the top well that's certainly not how it feels to

33:42Catherine Whitaker: to me no to me neither um you know he lost to Surundalo in his first match in Monte Carlo and match point was a was a swing and a miss on the backhand return air shot and against Marajan match point was a backhand shank out you know and you just feel like these are you know these are kind of symbolic points in the big six-pass picture of decline, unfortunately, and lack of improvement in some key areas just in his game. And then you see the box in Monte Carlo and his dad's there talking non-stop. His mum's there talking non-stop. Patrick Mortoglu's there talking non-stop. like how on earth are you meant to sort of concentrate and build a build a sustainable career with all of that going on and i think in past seasons there have been little moments where i've believed that maybe you know the good tennis is still in there and and he could piece it together often it's been monte carlo or you know it was dubai last year and And the experimentation with the new racket, that felt like, OK, he's trying something and maybe that can lead to something.

35:06Catherine Whitaker: But right now, we just seem to be, and he seems to be in a really tough spot of it not getting better, it getting worse. And because of where his ranking is, getting tough draws, you know, like Surundalo and Marajan in your first matches in tournaments is tough. They're not the worst losses in the world. But like, if you're ranked there, it could be even tougher.

35:27Matt Roberts: I feel like he could get Carlos Alcaraz around Roland Garros. That's where, yeah.

35:33Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, it's brutal. It is.

35:37Matt Roberts: Yeah, yeah. Tough scene for Stefano Sitzabas just at the moment. Okay, that is it for part one. We'll be back in part two to talk about the women.

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37:41Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast. Let's head to Stuttgart and the WTA 500 there, which is in so many ways such a great event. I know the players love it. I think it consistently gets voted like the best WTA 500. I know from friends of mine that work for the WTA, players love this event and it looks great on the TV, even as a hater of indoor clay and indoor tennis in general. They make a great show of it. They get great crowds. It's brilliant. And yet also it was like 6pm on Thursday before Coco Gauff played her first match. People had played two matches before Coco Gauff had even taken to the court for the first time.

38:34Matt Roberts: I could think of this event as one where the weekend is brilliant. like Friday, Saturday, Sunday I'm expecting to be great but I do find the first few days of this tournament really bizarre quite frankly Yeah

38:52Catherine Whitaker: and it's buys Catherine it comes from the buys you've got a 32 draw and you give four players buys so they only have to win one match as Coco Goff has done and they're in the quarterfinals

39:05Matt Roberts: I just don't understand And I'm quite sure there is a big reason for that that I'm missing. And please, please let me know, you know, answers on a postcard. But I don't see how that's good for the players. OK, it's some guaranteed ranking points. You have the safety net of...

39:24Catherine Whitaker: Guaranteed money of getting through a certain round.

39:26Matt Roberts: Guaranteed round two ranking points and money. But, you know, for a player ranked 50 in the world, that's a massive deal. for Coco Goff and Iger Svjontek. Like that shouldn't be that big a lure for playing an event. And like for the event, they should be desperate to get these top names that I'm assuming they're paying an appearance fee to because it's a 500 and it's non-mandatory to not get them playing for the first few days of the tournament. You want them playing, you want them on the schedule as much as possible for ticket buyers and for sponsors. I know there's something I'm missing. There must be a reason why it is this way, but I just can't see how it works for anybody.

40:21No, me neither.

40:23Catherine Whitaker: I can't imagine a world where all those players are saying, oh well I'm not going to go to Stuttgart then if I have to play in the first round the next match I can't imagine it's the bye that is that is the reason they're going right right and and

40:39Matt Roberts: it's also not then it's not that they get to arrive it's not that it's not like oh I get to spend some extra time at home I can arrive on Wednesday they were all there at the weekend for media day like media day and you know all the sponsor jazz that they do before the tournament That's a big part of their jobs and particularly at tournaments where they're getting paid appearance fee. That's a big part of what they're being paid for. They will all have had to be there at the weekend and then had to kick their heels for four days. Yeah, it's weird. But anyway, we have finally now seen every player in the draw in Stuttgart.

41:17Matt Roberts: Well done, Stuttgart. And our quarterfinals are pretty much set. all but one. We have Elena Rabachner against either Elena Fernandez or Zeynep Sonmez. That match is just getting underway on the screen in front of me. The winner of that to face the winner of Igor Shontek against Mira Andreeva. Then in the bottom half we have Elena Svitolina against Linda Nozkova and Karolina Mukova against Coco Goff. It is a great quarterfinal line-up, Matt.

41:51Catherine Whitaker: yeah so good where should we start

41:56Matt Roberts: it's it's either Shontek Andreva or it's Mook of a goth isn't it those are the match wise those are the two that that jump out okay well I'll go

42:08Catherine Whitaker: I'll go Shontek Andreva then because Shontek was the player I was most excited to see this week having you know not seen her since Miami and And a lot's changed in that time. You know, she's been rubbing shoulders with Rafa Nadal in that time and has changed head coach. Francisco Roig was in the box. Like, just, I don't know. I just always find it exciting. It's like, can't I start with a new season? Yes, in very sort of 2023 vibe on colours. I feel like they've kind of brought in more colour in their fits recently. But this was back to the sort of black and white. It looked like a Wimbledon. black and white vibe.

42:51Catherine Whitaker: It was nice. It was.

42:53Matt Roberts: But, you know.

42:54Catherine Whitaker: And I thought she played well. Laura Siegman's not... Probably...

43:00Matt Roberts: She's not a lot of things, Matt.

43:03Catherine Whitaker: She's not someone you would pick, I don't think, to play in your first match in a new era, on a new surface. I think the serve still looks a bit ropey for Siontech, if I'm honest. like um and of course it does and kind of ropey in the same way not ropey in a

43:25Matt Roberts: yeah it's not like there's there's changes here and it's going to take a while to bed in it's going to get worse before it gets better it kind of looked like this the same the same stuff as

43:34Catherine Whitaker: shantek on serve to my eye anyway yeah i think she's i think the action is a little different but not vastly. And it's just sort of...

43:43Matt Roberts: It's something with the elbow that's different, right? She's dropping the elbow a bit more. It's just sitting there still a little bit,

43:50Catherine Whitaker: the serve, you know, and looking ahead to a potential, you know, she's got a tough match against Andreeva. But I think the real test would be if she does play Rybakina, you know, that is going to be fascinating. But I thought she was good from the baseline. And she'd have probably been pleased to see Andreeva beat Ostopenko. to be quite honest. Because, yeah, Andreeva's been a tough matchup for her. She's one and two against Andreeva and has lost the last two. But she's 0-6 against Ostapenko and we know how that match goes and looks.

44:24Matt Roberts: Unusual for Ostapenko to lose knowing there was a likely Shontek in the next round because that's what she lives for.

44:32Catherine Whitaker: That's her entire personality. Yeah. Yeah. and she won the first set here Ostapenko it was a set where Andreeva was kind of the better player for most of it but Ostapenko just caught fire at the end and kind of like we were talking about for Andreeva and Linz just good composure that she showed to get the second set and then she was down in the third set Andreeva but still managed to come through and she credited the title and the matches that she had in Linz for building the confidence and feeling like she could still come back against Ostopenko. So those are really good vibes. Ostopenko, by the way, takes a big points hit there, having won Stuttgart last year.

45:15Catherine Whitaker: She's now, I think, 40 in the live rankings. Could well be unseeded at Roland Garros. I mean, imagine how quickly I'll be walking to the orangery at Roland Garros with the potential for unseeded Ostapenko to come out in a fun section of the draw. Like, yes, please. But I think what's really interesting to me about this is I was thinking, I felt like it had been a long time since we've seen Andrava in a big matchup. And I felt like whenever I've watched Andrava recently, in my mind, she's felt like the favourite in most matches she's played. And, OK, she's played like an Mboko where it would be pretty tight or an Anisimova would be pretty tight.

46:02Catherine Whitaker: But I was trying to think. I feel like she's played one of the game's biggest players in a while. And I look back through her record. She has not played Goff, Pagula, Rabakina, Sabalenka or Sviontek since Rome last year when she lost to Goff. It has been such a long time for her to have, you know, almost a year. Been an underdog, basically. exactly because those are the only players

46:28Matt Roberts: that she would be a like a real true underdog again yeah yeah

46:34Catherine Whitaker: everyone else she's either the favourite or okay it's Mboko Nisimova Svitolina we've seen her play those sorts of players and I think she's a bit I don't know I just have a feeling she's a bit more dangerous in a matchup against Fiontech where just that pressure is off maybe slightly and the vibes were good today with Conchita Martinez she sang happy birthday for her as she does and she took the mic. Yeah, it's just, I can't relate, but I enjoy it. Yeah, so really long time not seeing Andreeva in that sort of match and I'm excited to see it again and a good look at Shvantec as well. So yeah, can't wait for that one.

47:20Matt Roberts: Rabakina indoors, looking good, shocker.

47:26Catherine Whitaker: yeah just almost got tricky against Schneider like she had like she was like I think she was 3-4-15-30 down and just comes up with big plays when she needs them slams the door and then break you know like that kind of thing from Rebecca it's what she's been doing all year it's so impressive and sort of undeniable right now and yeah I think she'd definitely be the favourite against Fernandes or Sommez, whoever she faces. So I think very likely that she's in the semis here.

48:01Matt Roberts: Speaking of Sommez, by the way, who's currently 4-1 in the first set against Leila Fernandes, as we record in her opening, no, well, her second match, Paolini's first match, Sommez beat Jasmine Paolini 6-2, 6 '2", a very, very tough watch from a Jasmine Paolini perspective, somebody who we rely on for vibes. If we're having a tough day at a Grand Slam, we're like, oh, let's go and watch a bit of Jasmine Paolini. She'll cheer us up. And maybe that kind of pressure of being that person maybe that's too much for anyone you know remember when onstribur pitched herself as the minister of happiness like that's a lot to put on your shoulders because even the happy people have have tough times but seeing jasmine paulini in tears on a tennis court was a very affronting difficult thing to process seeing that I'm I'm very worried about her on a you know on all the levels on tennis level because it's it is not happening at all but obviously on a human level as well and it feels it feels very

49:32Catherine Whitaker: spirally right now yeah it's it's really tough for her i think she's nine and eight for the year i think um you know sort of yeah basically winning a match losing a match and that is that is not the record that she's had in in the last couple of seasons and i think the clay she would probably still say is her best surface and favorite time of year and when you're coming into that period off the back of such tough form and probably a lot of self-doubt and questioning and it's just not happening. And yeah, brutal, brutal seeing her in tears. I think it was the start of the second set, wasn't it?

50:13Catherine Whitaker: Against Sommez. Just, yeah, really tough right now for Paolini.

50:19Matt Roberts: Yeah, we'll watch closely. Obviously she's got, she's, you know, Madrid first, but she's going to be defending title points in Rome in front of a home crowd. I mean, maybe that's exactly what she needs, the uplift of the Rome crowd. But also I'm worried. I'm worried about Jasmine Paolini. I feel like we should just touch upon Coco Gough, Matt. She's got Karolina Mukovo in her quarterfinal. Just watched her win against Ludmilla Samsonova. Very tight first set, 7-5, but came through 6-love in the second. And she didn't look happy with that second set. I mean, Samsonova was really poor, I thought, in that second set.

51:05Matt Roberts: Coco Gough looked, I mean, look, this is her first match, isn't it? And she's had to wait till Thursday evening to play it. Maybe, you know, I do think that's pretty tricky. But she looked to me not thrilled with how she'd played in that match. some lack of confidence on the forehand, I thought. But, you know, Samsonova's tricky.

51:35Catherine Whitaker: She is. I mean, I looked at this matchup and thought Goff will win that easily because I just see Samsonova as kind of one-dimensional. The only way I thought Samsonova could win is if she just went for everything and everything went in. But that happens, you know, rarely. I thought with Goff's movement she'd be able to extend rallies and break her down I think that's absolutely what ended up happening she got off to a rough start Goff, three love down double break she looked rusty but I actually thought she played really well I thought she was good here Goff I thought in that second set in particular I don't have the numbers to hand but I would be very surprised if she wasn't extremely positive on the winners to unforced errors I thought she was soaking up Samsonova's power well, some nice drop shots.

52:26Matt Roberts: I agree, but don't you think she looked not thrilled with it? I didn't think she looked, you know, upset or anything.

52:40Catherine Whitaker: I thought she was just sort of, you know. I think for her, it's not a big deal, really, is it? Beating Samsonova in the first match of a tournament. like she's got she's got bigger fish to fry I suppose she served pretty well a few aces she did yeah I think and 70 % first serves in only a few double faults not many

53:05Matt Roberts: the holding my breath test on the serve I wasn't I wasn't clenched no

53:11Catherine Whitaker: and she loves playing Mukava yeah

53:16Matt Roberts: it's tough that Mukava does have these matchup issues against a few of the you know obviously Shontek the most glaring one she just doesn't get anywhere near Shontek but similarly well Goff she doesn't get near Goff six and oh

53:32Catherine Whitaker: yeah I think Goff's ability to in fact it's one of those matchups where Goff's forehand comes into its own or it has done in the past her ability there to just loop the forehand up the line to the Mukova backhand seems to negate a lot of what Mukova wants to do with the ball on the backhand side. He's either take it early and come in off it or sort of slice with it. She can't really do either of those things all that easily against Goff. And Goff's movement, I think, negates a lot of Mukova's attack. Yeah, she's just played really well in that matchup before. But Mukova played a very odd match today against Mertens where she was 6-1, 2-0 down and kind of heading out of the tournament.

54:20Catherine Whitaker: And then her forehand just absolutely caught fire, Mukovo. And she was coming up with outrageous shots and angles. Mertens' serve sort of fell apart on her. It was a very strange match. I think Mukovo ended up winning 12 of the last 13 games in this one. But given the head-to-heads, you know, as strongly as Mookova finished against Mertens, given the head-to-head, I think you would have to you would have to favour Goff in this match-up. She's just proved it time and time and time again.

54:52Matt Roberts: Svitolina Nozkova?

54:54Catherine Whitaker: Another good one.

54:55Matt Roberts: Winner of Mookova-Goff to face Svitolina Nozkova. Yeah, it's good stuff, isn't it? 2026 Svitolina match. She's no joke.

55:02Catherine Whitaker: No joke, yeah. I feel a little bit hard to gauge the levels here for these two because they both had such blowouts like Lise did well to come back and beat Bedossa, she was down in that match, she just started swinging and managed to win but she's come back from injury, Lise, it's been a tough period and then Svitolina just blew her off the court, but then Noskova blew Alexandra off the court who has not had a good season so far, Alexandreva, after kind of a career best season last year, she seems to have slumped a little bit. Matt, it's a great

55:42Matt Roberts: time for people that had her in their fantasy team last season and dropped her like a hot potato in 2026. Things are working out just great.

55:52Catherine Whitaker: So maybe Svitolina and Noska are both playing incredibly well, or maybe they both played opponents who didn't really put up all that much resistance. I'm not quite sure how to how to read those scorelines. But I think Nozkova and Svitolina, I feel like Svitolina's been sort of a top five-ish player this year and Nozkova's been a top 10-ish player this year. Do you know what I mean? Like they're both having good seasons.

56:19Matt Roberts: But it also feels like Nozkova, if she hits it, she does have the ability to hit. More firepower. Svitolina off the court, yeah. Okay, well, look, shaping up to be a, having slagged off the early few days, I am absolutely seated for the final few days in Stuttgart. Incidentally, just on Stuttgart, props to the negotiating team at the WTA that figured out the Mercedes-Porsche situation. Because obviously Mercedes have come in this year as this headline sponsor of the WTA, multi-year, massive deal that by all accounts is a total game changer for the WTA and their status in the sport and negotiating positions on loads of different fronts.

57:19Matt Roberts: Like it's a huge deal. And obviously, you know, Mercedes getting a lot in return for this at every other event on tour, branding everywhere. Obviously, it's a massive conflict, Mercedes and Porsche. And there is not a trace of Mercedes anywhere at the Stuttgart event, at the Porsche Open. And someone somewhere or a team of someone somewhere has negotiated that carve-out in the Mercedes deal. And I can imagine that was incredibly tricky. And that's good going, I would say. I hope that, yeah. But I hope that that's a stable situation. Because obviously, you know, Porsche have been a big backer of women's tennis and this particular event, you know, long term.

58:16Matt Roberts: And I can imagine they were really pissed off at Mercedes being the ones to come in with the big bucks. But look, they seem to have found a way to make it work. And long may that continue.

58:29Catherine Whitaker: I feel like there was an event earlier this season as well where Mercedes was missing.

58:36Matt Roberts: Where there was a big existing car sponsor. I think it might have been Indian Wells with BMW.

58:42Catherine Whitaker: And I think, as you said, they've obviously done well there. There's a couple of big events and they've done well to still get the deal through and hopefully not piss off too many people. Yeah, like impressive.

58:58Matt Roberts: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, Rouen, the last event to cover from this week, the quarterfinal lineup almost set there. We have the top seed, Marta Kostiuk, into the quarterfinals. She faces, who could have seen this coming? Anne Lee. Anne Lee in the quarterfinals. Matt, how are you feeling about that?

59:25Catherine Whitaker: I'll be honest, I did not expect to still be alive on Thursday's pod. I think she went set down.

59:34Matt Roberts: I think you're avoiding humiliation. Absolutely. I think I've totally avoided humiliation. You've avoided humiliation. Yeah, we've made it to this pod. This is not a Kuzmova situation.

59:44Catherine Whitaker: No, she's halfway there. like you know she was a set down I think to Casacchino before I'd even published the show on Monday but yeah a couple of three set wins I do think the fact is indoors in Rouen probably does help Anne-Lee yeah yeah in my mind she was kind of you know she was my pick but she was also representative of an unexpected

1:00:11Matt Roberts: finalist didn't you predict that she would play Kostchuk in the final

1:00:15Catherine Whitaker: No, Castella.

1:00:17Matt Roberts: Castella, okay. Of course you had looked at the draw. Right, okay. So you effectively predicted the big Anne Lee to upset top seed Marta Kostiuk results that we may or may not see tomorrow. Okay. TVC on that one.

1:00:31Catherine Whitaker: You know, I didn't want to pick the top players at everything and I thought Rouen felt to me like it could be the week of an unexpected. Why not Anne Lee? And she's won a couple of matches.

1:00:42Matt Roberts: Why not Anne Lee? We might find out the answer to that question tomorrow. Winner of Kostiuk and lead face the winner of Irina Shajmanovic and Tatiana Maria. Then in the bottom half of the draw, we have Veronica, Ukrainian player that, frankly, I know very little about. Veronica Podrez and Katie Bolter. That's a quarterfinal winner of that to face the winner of Sronika Steyer against the winner of the match. currently on court between Oleksandra Olinikova and Anna Bondar. Bondar is currently a break-up in the deciding set of that one so as you might have guessed it was Olinikova to win the much anticipated first round match between Olinikova and Lily Tagger which I'm guessing you watched Matt.

1:01:33Catherine Whitaker: No I missed it because we were recording Tennis Where We Lived. kind of everything with the scheduling gods

1:01:43Matt Roberts: too many pods okay that is it for part two we'll be back in part three to talk about a bit of news amelie maresmo has been holding a press conference in paris and there's some big movement on the saudi arabian sport front ai is only as powerful as the platform it's built into That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most.

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1:03:10Matt Roberts: Okay, welcome back to part three of today's tennis podcast where we have some potentially quite significant bits of news to cover that are broken in the past few days, starting with some reporting in The Athletic that is part of a wider picture of news that has been coming from Saudi Arabia in the past few days, most notably in the golfing world and reports that live the breakaway Saudi Arabian backed rivals. tour to the PGA. Reports that live is essentially heading for dissolution and that the Saudi Public Investment Fund that has become so heavily enmeshed in various different sports over the past few years is backing away from golf and potentially backing away from sport in general.

1:04:04Matt Roberts: In terms of tennis, the reporting from Matt Futterman and new to the Athletic Ava Wallace, brilliant reporter formerly of the Washington Post, new to the Athletic's tennis team. She and Matt have reported that the WTA is definitely not going to be extending its deal to host the WTA finals in Riyadh beyond the existing deal which ends after this year. Portia Archer, the chairman of the WTA, had been clear only a few months ago that the WTA had wanted to extend its current three-year deal to host the finals in Riyadh had the appetite been there from the Saudi public investment funds. But to quote the Athletics article, the WTA finals has outlived its usefulness to Saudi Arabia's wider tennis ambitions.

1:05:02Matt Roberts: the event costs 25 million dollars to stage this as reported in the article with license fees and prize money and obviously infrastructure costs and that money can now be recouped and I'm sure will come in handy given that they will they being the the public investment fund the the Saudi Arabian state essentially will be building a brand new complex to host the ATP Masters 1000 event that we know will be commencing in 2020, 2028. Or that is certainly the current plan for that ATP Masters 1000 event to be starting from from 2028. Also reported in this piece in the Athletic, one WTA official has has told them that cities in the Americas are in contention to host the WTA finals from next year onwards.

1:05:59Matt Roberts: And national media in Poland and in the Czech Republic have reported that Gdansk, Estrava and Prague are also all interested in hosting the finals.

1:06:16Matt Roberts: It's not a huge surprise to me, Matt.

1:06:24Matt Roberts: And depending on sort of how micro or macro you want to look at this, sport is a means to an end for the Saudi Arabian state. It's a sports washing tool. And tennis is a means to an end within that. And on the most granular level, the WTA is a means to an end beyond that. They've bought themselves some legitimacy. They've bought themselves two years of PR. of all of the world's top female tennis players coming to Saudi Arabia and saying, well, I've had a good experience. It seems to be great for women as far as I can tell. And they've bought themselves the exposure and legitimacy of being the hosts of the WTA finals.

1:07:08And that will deliver very diminishing returns

1:07:14Matt Roberts: beyond the three-year deal that they've already signed. So it doesn't surprise me at all that this is the case, but it is pretty depressing. I mean, sort of not depressing. Like, I'm thrilled that this tournament isn't going to be in Saudi Arabia beyond this year. But in another sense, very depressing.

1:07:36Catherine Whitaker: yeah i think um that feeling of the wta being kind of used as a bit of a pawn and as a means to an end for saudi arabia's bigger ambitions which was to to get a a piece of the atp map i think um you know i would say that the wta did get something out of saudi arabia you know it wasn't all one way you know i think that it was a pretty desperate financial situation that the wta were in and as you as as as depressing as it is that they turned to that money they needed they needed money at that time and they needed a host for this event so the wta did take something from it as well but mostly it felt like they were sort of being used in this in in this exchange i suppose um and i think the the thing that strikes me is those quotes in the in the piece from from matt and ava uh quoting a lot of the players talking about this in charleston and in particular pagula talking about how she feels that wta finals is so inferior over the last few years to the atp finals from a marketing perspective and from a feel perspective and that is absolutely how it has come across and you know i don't i absolutely don't think that the wta took the finals to saudi arabia with the intention of trying to reach new people and um you know build the sport in that area that was one of the things they would talk about as a sort of side benefit of being there but i just don't think a big event the flagship event of the tour should be taken to a place without a already established level of support and fandom.

1:09:36Catherine Whitaker: And that is what the ATP has hit on in the last couple of decades, really, with London and now with Italy. Like, they've been able to send the event to these places where they knew that there would already be fans and then grow it from there. And they've turned into these giant events. The ATP Finals is a big event on the tour. It's not necessarily my favourite event, but there's absolutely no doubt about it that it's a popular event with tennis fans and it feels glamorous and there's a real prestige to it. The WTA Finals has felt like such a poor relation in the last few years with uncertainty about where it can be and then, okay, it's been hosted, but it's been hosted in a venue of about 3 ,000, three and a half thousand compared to a 20 ,000 seat a venue for the ATP finals and personally I am encouraged by this list of potential hosts of the WTA final but I have to say particularly the ones in Poland and and Czechia are the ones that are really jumping out to me I think though I think those would be fantastic venues to I mean to host the WTA finals it makes so much sense.

1:10:50Matt Roberts: gather like Prague always bid like Prague always up for it yeah they just didn't and I believe they were in last time around they just obviously weren't able to offer the the money that Saudi Arabia were offering and I don't you know I'm not so naive as to you know wish for a world where money simply weren't a factor like obviously it's great that the the prize purse was so big in Saudi Arabia and you know matched and I think exceeded the you know the equivalent the equivalent tournament for the men like that is a desirable outcome I don't believe the means by which that were achieved were justifiable and and I believe that the cost is is far too high and and in the end you know I believe that the net outcome in terms of equality and gains for women and women's sport were were negative very negative on this front but you know I'm not that's not nothing but like the appetite is always there from Prague they're always there and up for and committed to women's tennis and maybe now with the with the Mercedes deal in place and the situation looking that bit desperate as I say like their position at these negotiating tables I think Mercedes has changed that um and I I just hope that it changes it to the extent that one of these one of these countries that has always been there showing up for women's tennis and that has the has the appetite for it um I hope that's I hope

1:12:36Catherine Whitaker: that's where we end up so yeah I think the piece from Matt and Ava said that a decision is expected in the summer um and this is obviously for 2027 onwards isn't it that we've got one more year uh in saudi arabia but yeah this is for for 2027 onwards and yeah but as you said it does it from an atp perspective it does this you know piff potentially rolling out of sports does really make you question the decision to sort of go all in on a master's there and it's not like it's not like they're doing that without losing anything you know they're sort of killing off and buying off a load of traditional established events in the calendar

1:13:26Matt Roberts: and if they do that and then kind of trying to kill off a whole swing right if they do that and

1:13:32Catherine Whitaker: then a couple of years into it suddenly the the money's not there anymore like you've you've done some damage there.

1:13:41Matt Roberts: I mean, look, there's two years before that event is supposed to be held. And, you know, from all the reporting I've read of this, you know, this Saudi situation with other sports, PIF are selling Al-Halal, the sort of flagship football soccer team that has been established in the Saudi Arabian League. You know, so much money has been poured into that. over the past few years, this golf situation, it sounds, you know, look, as I say, sport was always a means to an end for Saudi Arabia and for PIF, but it sounds like the kind of acceleration towards that end, like it's foot to the floor. And I'm sure the geopolitical situation in the region is a massive part of that.

1:14:32Matt Roberts: But I imagine there are some squeaky bums on seats at the ATP right now, I would have thought. And we'll keep an eye on all of it and bring you news as we have it. We had an Amelie Maresmo press conference today, Matt. Don't we love those? What could possibly make an Amelie Maresmo press conference worse? The answer, folks, is Microsoft Teams.

1:15:08Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. Mind you, it was one of her better ones, I would say.

1:15:17Matt Roberts: Talk us through it. Why was this one of the least offensive at Amelie Morales' very press conferences you've attended, albeit virtually?

1:15:29Catherine Whitaker: Well, she didn't trash women's tennis. So that was a great start. It wasn't about that, to be honest. She was asked by Charlie Acrocher of The Athletic about whether the scheduling will be the same this year at Roland Garros on Chattray for the night session and the first match of the day. And, well, she just didn't go there. She said nothing's set in stone. It's going to depend on the draws.

1:15:57Matt Roberts: On the attractivity of the matches. Yeah.

1:16:03Catherine Whitaker: It was a classic, you know, a month or so out. Let's announce everything new and fun and good that we're doing this year at Roland Garros to make it, you know, the best edition yet. And as far as I'm concerned, it's going to be a lot of ceremonies, Catherine. There's a lot of announcement of ceremonies. Guillaume Monfils is getting one, of course. Of course, he's also getting his own night before the event starts, an opening week. There's going to be a... Gale and Friends. Yeah, for charity. Look, I'm all for that. That sounds great. Absolutely.

1:16:37Matt Roberts: Absolutely. It's not for me, but people will love it and it's not hurting anyone. In fact, it's great. I will totally ignore it. I will try to pretend it's not existing, but like Kids Day. I support it existing, don't want to know anything about it. It will make my teeth itch.

1:16:56Catherine Whitaker: caroline garcia is getting a ceremony in between the women's semifinals it's going to be a celebration of her career and then the little thing again i support that in principle but i know what's going to happen matt i'm going to be sitting there the first semifinal go really long

1:17:14Matt Roberts: that it's going to be faff friggin tastic isn't it i know i'll be annoyed while it's happening

1:17:22Catherine Whitaker: and the little thing they snuck in there is that stan wavrinka is going to be getting a ceremony which obviously means he's going to be getting a wild card because yeah because it said a ceremony after his last match you know it wasn't just one that they were just going to do i mean can you imagine not giving him a wild card and then giving him a ceremony no they're not going to do that

1:17:43Matt Roberts: they're going to give him a wild card do you know if anywhere if anywhere was going to do that

1:17:47Catherine Whitaker: Roland Garros.

1:17:48Matt Roberts: They did that shit ceremony for Dominic Thiem in qualies. Remember that? When he lost in qualies. Having not given him a main draw. I mean, I suppose that's true.

1:17:59Catherine Whitaker: They didn't specify it would be a main draw match for Wawrinka, I suppose. No, they have. No, he's getting a world card. He has to.

1:18:13Matt Roberts: I feel 90 % sure he is.

1:18:16Catherine Whitaker: And he's a former champion in a way that Team isn't, of course. Yeah. I still think Team should have got one, but it is different still with Stan. What else? A fine dining area, a chef's garden by Court Simone Mathieu.

1:18:33Matt Roberts: So I was struggling to be let into this Microsoft Teams meeting. So I was texting Matt saying, what am I missing? What's going on? What's the news? And every reply of Matt was about fine dining.

1:18:47Catherine Whitaker: yeah uh there's just there's just there was a slide on with just a load of chefs and they're apparently all gonna have stations or something by port simone mature it sounds nice i think great yeah good i like food great prize money is up 9.5 percent uh and i think probably probably the most interesting thing was um the fact that they're going to be allowing certain wearable devices on court and they're going to not have cameras backstage they're going to respect the players privacy of course that's interesting because it's a direct response to two of the big talking points from the australian open where wearables were not allowed and cameras were everywhere and the Rangar is taking a different approach and I believe it was also said that the holistic approach always I believe it was said that the other Grand Slams as well will be allowing certain wearables so it sounds like the other slams are aligned on this and Australian Open has been a little bit of a of an outlier this year I think it's for commercial

1:20:00Matt Roberts: reasons isn't it right yeah like because I think they're hoping to sign a wearable tech sponsor is my read on the situation. I mean, it's always money, isn't it? That's not a big take to say. I think it's because of money. It's always money. Anyway.

1:20:20Catherine Whitaker: And then there was one last question where Craig Tiley's comments about women potentially playing five sets were put to Amelie Maresmo. And this was where I was braced. I was thinking, oh God, it's been a fine press conference. please don't ruin it with a PR catastrophe and she didn't she I think she spoke quite sensibly about the subject saying you don't think you can change that format overnight and go from best of three to best of five it's not overnight though is it because she first

1:20:59Matt Roberts: mentioned that to me four years ago so three years ago four years ago yeah I suppose many years ago like you know yeah um but I suppose it hasn't really you know that

1:21:14Catherine Whitaker: was so out of the blue wasn't it like no one was really no one else was really it wasn't on the

1:21:17Matt Roberts: table really so was then moving to October like if you want to do stuff you can do stuff yes I learned I learned that from Roland Garros Matt in 2020

1:21:31Catherine Whitaker: I mean I think it would be madness to just suddenly say oh women are playing best of five at my tournament and at no other tournaments because they're not training for any of that sort of thing I think you're going to do it

1:21:45Matt Roberts: you've got to do it properly and sensibly I agree I'm not saying I want that I'm saying I think that this nothing is set in stone yeah I think this I just I think it's I think I think nothing is going to happen I agree I don't believe these conversations are really happening behind the scenes I think Amelie Moresmo wants to look like she is an advocate for women's tennis in some way and for some sort of progression on the women's tennis front I think she knows just enough to know that she's she's done some damage and she doesn't want that to be her legacy in women's tennis. I think it is going to be her legacy.

1:22:35Matt Roberts: So I think she wants to sort of kind of have it both ways. You know pay some lip service to wanting potentially wanting this potentially cool thing. Not everybody would see it that way. I just don't believe anything's happening or ever will happen. the thing is there was there was definitely there was definitely a version of her answer that i

1:22:59Catherine Whitaker: think she might have given in the last few years where she said oh no women can't play best of five

1:23:03Matt Roberts: that sort of thing you know i think there's god that's the bar is it that's the i mean don't you like weren't you braced for that sort of answer from from i mean she's she said i think i actually think i wasn't on this one because of at her at the absolute lowest amelie mares moeb which was that whether it was three years ago or four years ago I can't remember when she'd given the the attractivity press conference and we had talked about it and then she'd invited me in for the the weird damage limitation meeting because she was she was talking about women playing best of five then actually don't I don't think I was braced on this one I think that's her sort of

1:23:50Matt Roberts: it's her shield throwing the oh but I believe women are physically capable of playing best of five you know

1:24:00Catherine Whitaker: right and she sort of cited her own career saying that she just missed out on the little period where they were playing best of five at the end of year masters and she said she wanted to she said she wanted to taste those sensations you know she sort of knew Just like I'm sure, you know. Might want to taste the night sessions.

1:24:21Matt Roberts: They might want to taste the night sessions. I mean, they probably don't because the night sessions are shit. But, you know, if you're pitching them as this great experience, maybe the current players would like to taste those sensations.

1:24:35Catherine Whitaker: God, it's April and we're already worked up by Amelie Maresmo. We are losing this. She is winning.

1:24:44Matt Roberts: I know. I'm getting it out of the way now I'm getting it out of the way now I'm not

1:24:50Catherine Whitaker: I'm not going to let it derail the French open

1:24:54Matt Roberts: in extraordinarily unironic news not announced in the press conference so she did this press conference and then a press pack was released a hard copy press pack was released in conjunction with the press conference and in the press pack headline, a new exhibition dedicated to women's tennis at the Tennesseum, which is the French Open's tennis museum. Throughout the tournament, the Tennesseum will host a new exhibition entitled Serving for Equality, which traces the sporting, social and cultural history of women's tennis from the 19th century to the present day. A focus, there'll also be a focus on wheelchair tennis underlining the sports drive for inclusion there.

1:25:52Matt Roberts: The exhibition also highlights modern day challenges, media coverage, motherhood, gender-based and sexual violence, racism, et cetera. It'll feature previously unseen objects and archives. The exhibition will run until the end of March 2027. And if Roland Garros would like to contact me or us for our submissions about tennis's journey towards equality and the role that Roland Garros has played in that, then I'm available. Right. Final bits and bobs of news. Sort of a random collection of things from the past few days. Five-time Grand Sam Doubles champion Jamie Murray has announced his retirement.

1:26:39Matt Roberts: Obviously, his career does deserve the fanfare of an announcement and the ending of it being acknowledged. I feel a bit unmoved by this because in my head, Jamie Murray was very much already retired. I literally commentated with him earlier this year. He's the tournament director of Queen's. He has like 12 other jobs that aren't being a professional tennis player. So, yeah, it's now official, folks. Andy Murray did a little video. We've already seen Jamie Murray at the driving range. The post-tennis golf content begins. I think it was the same driving range we went to a few weeks ago, Matt, that I've tried to erase that experience from my mind because I was so bad.

1:27:35Matt Roberts: But yeah, maybe we'll see Jamie Murray on a driving range one day soon.

1:27:42Catherine Whitaker: And I heard him talking on Five Live about how it became clear to him last year that he knew he wanted to retire when he was a bit ill and he couldn't play and he had some time off and he just realised that he did not miss it at all. He talked about how in the last few years of his career he had quite a lot of anxiety on court related to his serve and actually the sport hadn't been all that enjoyable for him in the last couple of years. So I think it may have been a little bit of a relief for him to sort of come to this decision and step away. As you said, he's already, you know, he's already sort of doing other things.

1:28:22Catherine Whitaker: But yeah, like I think a pretty significant man in British tennis, not only as Andy Murray's brother, but also the first British man to reach number one in doubles and, you know, that partnership.

1:28:35Matt Roberts: It's funny that that feels so like sort of now we're like, all right, another British man's reached number one in doubles, have they? Well, quite. It's just a conveyor belt, but he...

1:28:45Catherine Whitaker: He sort of ushered in that era, really. Absolutely. Yeah, you know, the role of...

1:28:50Matt Roberts: He and Louis Caim.

1:28:51Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, they sort of roll off the tongue, the British doubles players since then. there's just been so many um but yeah um and and that and that partnership with bruno suarish was always you know a fun one and when we were working at queens they were always good for you know social media content and and all that kind of stuff it was fascinating how they made

1:29:14Matt Roberts: that work so i don't think it was that they didn't get on i think they got on but they weren't best mates you know they were very different people um but yeah it it worked they

1:29:29Catherine Whitaker: yeah they were a vibe and there was a nice note from uh david saying people tend to think of the first time andy murray publicly showing emotion was after the 2010 australian open final but the first time i saw it david said was when jamie played his 2007 mixed doubles final at wimbledon alongside Jankovic and Andy joined the BBC Radio 5 live team in the commentary box. He was so nervous and tight and emotional when Jamie won. And then there was that image of him leaving the box to catch Jamie's eye. And he was seen arms aloft with a huge smile on his face. It's a nice, nice anecdote from David there.

1:30:07Catherine Whitaker: And yeah, like, and it was always interesting how they couldn't do it at the Olympics. They had some really early losses together at the Olympics, didn't they? But of course, their doubles partnership, the Murray brothers, was absolutely crucial in helping Britain win the Davis Cup. And OK, Murray was, Andy Murray was the main figure in that team. But that partnership was big and Jamie more than played his part in it.

1:30:36Matt Roberts: Roberto Bautista-Agu today announced, not quite his retirement yet, but that 2026 would be his final year on tour. Didn't quite get in there in time for Amelie Muresmo to add him to her list of ceremonies. I'm sure he'll get a ceremony somewhere. He's worthy of a ceremony.

1:30:57Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I'll say.

1:30:58Matt Roberts: Where will Roberto Batista Agu get a ceremony, Matt?

1:31:06Catherine Whitaker: Madrid, maybe. I think in Spain it wasn't that tournament but it was that venue, the Magic Box that hosted the 2019 Davis Cup finals, honestly one of the most extraordinary things I've ever been at which was his father died mid-tournament he went back home and then came back to be part of the Spanish Davis Cup team and won his match in the final against Auger Aliasim, I think it was, and set Spain on their way to victory. And he was incredibly emotional. The whole stadium was, everyone knew what he'd been through that week. It was quite extraordinary, really. And I always think of that 2019 season as his best season.

1:31:56Catherine Whitaker: It would be a fitting place. Wimbledon semi-finalist, Roberto Batista-Agu. I mean, look, Queen's last year, he played some incredible tennis. And he was interesting because his worst surface was clay, even though he was Spanish. He was a flatheader of the ball, liked the quicker surfaces. Beat Djokovic a couple of times, I seem to remember. Yeah, really good, solid pro. Good guy, I think. Bautista were good.

1:32:23Matt Roberts: Yeah, always went through that period of wearing the rainbow laces, didn't he?

1:32:29Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah.

1:32:31Matt Roberts: Last bit of random bits and bobs of tennis news. the Rafael Nadal documentary has been announced. We knew it was coming. The trailer is out. It will debut on Netflix on the 29th of May. From a scale of the Naomi Osaka documentary on Netflix, I'm calling that a zero to, I don't know, what's a 10 on the tennis documentary front? Some sort of mythical 10 where there's an actually interesting tennis documentary where are you on the excitement scale here Matt?

1:33:09Catherine Whitaker: Oh right down the middle

1:33:15Matt Roberts: I don't think we'll learn anything new will we but it will be a nice we'll get to relive some nice moments assuming they I'm interested to see how much how what rights they have to the match footage like that is expensive I mean I hope they've spent I hope they've forked out for all of the match footage that you need to properly tell the Nadal story but yeah it'll be interesting

1:33:45Catherine Whitaker: Yeah I mean dropping during Roland Garros makes sense, it's just before his birthday isn't it, you know everyone will be thinking about Nadal, it's kind of Nadal time of year so you know I'm sure it'll be very popular with his fans but But I do think the one that, of course, Noah had, and this was something that I saw James Hansen tweet, the tennis editor at The Athletic, is that from the trailer, it very much looks like it's all about Nadal, the fighter and the gritty guy. and you don't want Nadal's tennis brain and the way he helped change the sport with his top spin to be erased from tennis history.

1:34:33Catherine Whitaker: I'm worried that the Nadal narrative gets narrow and it just becomes about him as this tremendous hard worker and gritty competitor, which he obviously was and is a standout feat to battle through injury and big rivals and all that sort of stuff. but let's not forget like what an incredible like actual like tactician and tennis player and all that was and that may well come out in the documentary it just doesn't come out in the trailer so that would be like the one note of caution i would have but you know yeah like i

1:35:07Matt Roberts: if you're expecting this documentary to tell a full and well-rounded what's-and-all story of Rafael Nadal. Yeah, it's not going to. So I'm going to try and limit my expectations. I expect to have a nice experience watching this. Me too. I don't... I love Rafael Nadal. I don't think he's an obvious choice for a documentary. I don't think he's... He's not great at reflection. He was great in press conferences. I'm not saying he's a bad interviewee, like he was the number one on the list of must go to press conferences. But in terms of sort of self-reflection, the sort of self-reflection that's required to be an interesting and revealing documentary subject.

1:35:58Matt Roberts: I personally would be surprised if Rafael Nadal proves to be particularly good on that front. But happy to be proven wrong. That's why we'll watch, yeah. I hope his being a hoot comes across. Comes across, yeah. I hope that Nadal that we got in press comments, particularly latterly in his career, I hope that we get that. Yeah. We will find out on May the 29th. Maybe we'll do a little screening at Tennis Podcast Towers Paris. Yeah, that'd be fun. That'd be fun. Yeah. OK.

1:36:46Catherine Whitaker: Keeping Nadal at Roland Garros alive another year.

1:36:50Matt Roberts: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

1:36:51Catherine Whitaker: We can't do Roland Garros without Nadal.

1:36:55Matt Roberts: This has been a fun show. We'll be back on Monday with our next one to review all these tournaments that we've been talking about today and to look ahead to, well, Madrid. It'll be, won't it? Madrid that'll be getting underway. It's a two-week Masters, so probably Tuesday for the women and Wednesday for the men. And then the players that you've actually heard of will start playing at the weekend. So, yeah, join us for that on Monday. we recorded a show yesterday for Friends of the Tennis Podcast our latest edition of Tennis Relived on the history of the rankings it was absolutely fascinating my dad, Matt, has rated it a 10 out of 10 oh, pleased to hear that he loved it so oh, that's really pleasing what more encouragement do you need folks to become a friend of the pod to get access to that show

1:37:51Catherine Whitaker: And he would say if he didn't think it was a 10 out of 10.

1:37:55Matt Roberts: Oh, I had lunch with him yesterday during which he gave me much feedback on other shows. But this one, no feedback. He enjoyed it very much. And we also have a live YouTube show next Wednesday evening, 8pm UK time for Friends of the Tennis Podcast. So if you can't get enough of us, then become a friend of the pod and get access to extra us, David included, who'll be back on Monday's show. The link to become a friend, of course, is in our show notes. Hello to our mascots, Bodie, Maisie and Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. shout outs and mascots will be back on Monday because we need David's tennis brain frankly for the shout outs for everything really we look forward to David's return on Monday we of course are part of the Athletic Podcast Network thank you for listening and we will speak to you on Monday

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