Indian Wells - The story so far

0:00Matt Roberts: This episode is sponsored by Michael's, your destination for all things birthday parties. We just had Lucky's first birthday, and it was so great to be able to go into Michael's and get everything. Of course, I knew they had craft supplies there, but I didn't realize how expansive their party supplies were. And Michael's really is where you can go to get everything for a party, whether you're planning a kid's birthday or even an adult celebration. They've got over 4 ,500 party supplies, more than 60 different themes, and prices starting at just 99 cents. Plus, they've recently lowered prices on hundreds of items.

0:30Matt Roberts: We found adorable decorations, balloons, everything we needed to pull the party together without making a bunch of different shopping trips. Plus, I always have a good time going to Michael's. I love shopping there. I could just browse the aisles forever. But if you're short on time like I always seem to be, you can also get same-day delivery or buy online and pick up at the store. They even offer free helium inflation on select balloon styles, which is such a lifesaver, and it was for our party, truly. So if you've got a birthday coming up or just a celebration, remember Michael's Everything to Celebrate Anything.

1:05Matt Roberts: Visit Michael's in-store or shop online now.

1:12Matt Roberts: AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com. This episode is presented by ServiceNow. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.

2:04Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast. It is Monday the 9th of March. Tennis Paradise is paradising. Indian Wells is well underway. Matt Roberts is in a bad mood about football. How are you doing, Matt?

2:21Catherine Whitaker: Oh, thank you for asking, but I really don't want to talk about it. I'm just going to bring the mood down. I hoped when I woke up this morning that I'd be feeling better, but I literally was immediately conscious and immediately remembering that we fucked up the entire season yesterday. so yeah not good I wish I didn't care as much but I do and it's ruined my day and weekend

2:51Matt Roberts: I don't want to talk about it I'll only bring the mood down is a far more polite version of what Matt Roberts said in our whatsapp group to David yesterday which was my highlight of the weekend when David, bless him, sent a message about the football moments after the final whistle.

3:12David Law: Yeah, I've got to learn to keep my mouth shut and not ask about Marco Silva's team selection decisions because Matt was not happy with them nor being asked about them. But I do think what we have done today is set a record for the fastest need ever for an explicit tag on this show. So well done matt roberts well done for catherine for starting him off

3:37Matt Roberts: i actually cannot i'm going dark if you're wondering those were those were matt's that was matt's response i did feel bad i did apologize i've only witnessed matt being rude like twice in my life and it's just it's just such a highlight uh matt sorry to continue this hour me but i feel like we should start part one of today's show by kind of picking up from where we were last week. There were a number of situations that have developed over the course of the past week, some serious, some less serious. Let's start with the draw ceremony. We ended last week's show with much excitement and anticipation about Indian Wells treating a draw with the apparent reverence and seriousness and sense of occasion which it deserves.

4:33Matt Roberts: You stayed up late to watch the draw or to get social media updates about the draw. Marks out of 10 and general review, please.

4:48Catherine Whitaker: I went with four out of 10 and most of those marks were for effort. and I do want to say that I do take that seriously and I do therefore still put Indian Wells above most tournaments. Most tournaments getting 0 out of 10 for their draw, to be clear. But it was unfortunately a sort of reminder that even when tennis puts on draws, they don't really know how to do them in a captivating way. Too much faff, Catherine. Far too much faff. Interviews, needless breakdown of the draw as it's happening live. No, let the draw speak for itself. We just need the names, who is playing each other. That is the drama.

5:38Catherine Whitaker: Don't suck all of that out by doing ridiculous interviews and asking Bianca Andreescu who her celebrity crush is midway through the draw. And then don't display it poorly on TV either so that you can't follow it properly. These are basic things that they got very, very wrong despite trying.

6:04Matt Roberts: okay so uh points for effort is the is the verdict and that is the ultimate in damning with faint praise uh you had the opportunity to use expletives there but given that we've already got an explicit tag on this show thanks to you and you you managed to manage not to

6:22Catherine Whitaker: the draw was nowhere near as bad as fulham

6:29Matt Roberts: okay okay i'm really damning with faint praise right uh so that's the much anticipated draw review uh the other situation that we were updating you on uh in last week's show uh was um surrounding the middle east um obviously you'll all know what's been going on in the Middle East at the time of recording last week. It was all fairly fresh. Iran had began firing retaliatory missiles at US bases in Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, and crucially from a tennis point of view, the UAE following the initial American and Israeli strikes on Tehran on Saturday morning and Dubai's airport was damaged and its airspace closed.

7:14Matt Roberts: Obviously, events have escalated significantly over the course of the past week. In terms of the tennis situation, a number of players and ATP staff were stranded in Dubai, unable to get out, players unable to get to Indian Wells, including Daniel Medvedev, who has talked about the journey. He ended up going on before eventually somehow managing to get to Indian Wells, where he's played and won a match. He spoke with the journalist Sophia Tartakova for Bolshe. He said, we arrived in Amman by car. Someone was lucky to get there in four hours and 30. Someone drove for nine hours. We drove for seven hours.

8:03Matt Roberts: A little wrinkle in his tail was that our driver couldn't find his passport, he said. so I think he actually once they got to the border they actually had to go back for the driver to get his passport yeah he said we were the only ones who crossed the border, turned around and came back to the UAE he found his passport in the parking lot and we drove to Amman stayed there for the night the next day we flew to Istanbul spent the night in a hotel and then flew to Los Angeles he said if you tell all the details then of course it's unusual you feel like you're in a Hollywood movie. Very pleased to see and hear that he, and I think all the other players and staff that were stranded in the UAE have now managed to make it out one way or another.

8:54Matt Roberts: But the other situation that started developing at the start of last week was that there were two ATP Challenger events taking place in the UAE in the city of Fujairah. Now they did eventually end up being cancelled, but they did begin in earnest. It was a bit like the doubles final that we discussed on last week's show where we couldn't quite believe our eyes that they were going ahead with it. Well, the same happened with these challenger events. Three matches were in progress when play was stopped at the first of these two events on Tuesday with footage of the match, you might have seen it, between Hayato Matsuoka and Daniil Ostapenkoff showing the players, umpire and ball kids rushing to leave the court after they were told to get inside the building, please.

9:46Matt Roberts: An incredibly dystopian scene, if you've seen it. UAE authorities later said that Shrapnel landed at the Fujairah oil terminal around eight miles from the tennis country club in Fujairah where the event was taking place. Now the Athletic did quite a lot of reporting, fantastic reporting on this situation. And it was on Earth that the ATP tour told players following the cancellation of these events, told the players that were signed up to play at them that it would, quote, potentially be organising a charter flight out of the region for€5 ,000 per passenger. that was in an email that was seen by The Athletic and reported on by The Athletic.

10:38Matt Roberts: The flight was said to be leaving at 3pm local time on Thursday from Muscat to Amman, which is a three-hour drive from Fajira and would have required a border crossing. There was then a second email that The Athletic also had sight of, sent just under two hours later. It said it was not directly organising a flight and would instead explore, quote, available travel options with third party providers. Then on Wednesday afternoon, the ATP announced that they would be covering costs for all the players to get home. Now, whether that would have happened were it not for this reporting and the outrage that came from it.

11:22Matt Roberts: I think people couldn't quite believe the communications that the players were receiving out in Fajira. I don't know. But eventually, David, the right thing was done by the ATP.

11:38David Law: Yeah, that required a pretty swift handbrake turn from them because that first email was not good. That did not come across well at all. and it's all well and good saying the safety of our players is priority but you've got to back that up with actions and that's what happened in the end so well done to them in the end and I think it is fair to say that these sort of things it's really tough to know what to do I think sometimes in authority and that kind of thing but that has got to be at least planned for to some degree and then acted upon and they did look, they got it done in the end.

12:26Matt Roberts: And that's, you know, mercifully for tennis, that is the sports stint in the Middle East over and done with until, well, until the WTA finals in Riyadh scheduled for later in the year. Later in the year, a lot of other sports are confronting a what on earth do we do about our upcoming Middle Eastern event situation. I think Formula One has got some serious decisions on its hands, but tennis at least doesn't need to confront that for the time being. But I'm relieved that everybody seems safe, albeit potentially quite traumatised by the situation. in the Athletic had an interview with Harry Heliovara, the Finnish doubles player who was involved in the doubles final with his partner Henry Patton in Dubai on Saturday.

13:20Matt Roberts: It's an incredible read. And, yeah, as you might expect, he's very, very affected by what he went through. And he and Henry Patton have withdrawn from Indian Wells. and we wish them well, absolutely. And that is it for part one. We'll be back in part two to talk about the tennis.

13:45David Law: Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income isn't easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real, lots of firms throw a couple of flashy funds your way and call it a day, but not Vanguard. Vanguard bonds are institutional quality. Institutional quality isn't a tagline. It's a commitment to your clients. It means top grade products across the board. Vanguard's been in the game a long time and their scale gives them a serious edge. They're able to invest across all kinds of sectors, maturities and geographies, which means they can spot and act on opportunities that others might miss.

14:29David Law: So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, Go see the record for yourself at vanguard.com forward slash audio. That's vanguard.com forward slash audio. All investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor. Take this as your sign to go. Just get out there and go. This summer at Best Western get 1 ,000 bonus points and a chance to win 250 ,000 bonus points. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at bestwestern.com. No additional purchase necessary for sweeps. See bonus points, TNCs, and sweeps rules for details.

15:11Matt Roberts: This episode is sponsored by Michaels, your destination for all things birthday parties. We just had Lucky's first birthday, and it was so great to be able to go into Michaels and get everything. Of course, I knew they had craft supplies there, but I didn't realize how expansive their party supplies were. And Michaels really is where you can go to get everything for a party, whether you're planning a kid's birthday or even an adult celebration. They've got over 4 ,500 party supplies, more than 60 different themes, and prices starting at just 99 cents. Plus, they've recently lowered prices on hundreds of items.

15:42Matt Roberts: We found adorable decorations, balloons, everything we needed to pull the party together without making a bunch of different shopping trips. Plus, I always have a good time going to Michael's. I love shopping there. I could just browse the aisles forever. But if you're short on time like I always seem to be, you can also get same-day delivery or buy online and pick up at the store. They even offer free helium inflation on select balloon styles, which is such a lifesaver and it was for our party, truly. So if you've got a birthday coming up or just a celebration, remember Michael's Everything to Celebrate Anything.

16:16Matt Roberts: Visit Michael's in-store or shop online now.

16:26Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast where it's time to talk about the tennis. Let's start with the men and what we've seen so far in Indian Wells. And let's start, David, with Joel Fonseca because he's been having a tough time recently in the tennis discourse. discourse. He's been getting a bit of a battering for being, frankly, overhyped, hasn't he? And look, his results recently have not been great. He's been recovering from the latest flare-up of this chronic back injury that we know he has, and it's taken him a bit of time to find his feet back on the tour. But my goodness me, in Indian Wells, so far this week, he has found those feet.

17:12Matt Roberts: And he looks to me like somebody playing maybe with a little bit of a point to prove.

17:18David Law: Overhyped, you say? Come straight to me. I can't argue with that. Look, I do think when you first slap eyes on the way he hits his forehand, it is one of the most show-stopping, jaw-dropping sights in the sport. And I think I certainly did get carried away with that shot. I'm still awestruck by it. But I think that the assumption became, oh, when he can knock somebody off the court, he can do it to everybody and nobody's going to find any solution to that. And the truth is, you need more than that. And I think, and it is a lot, it is a lot of hype. And it's also, So it's wonderful, wonderful attention from his home supporters.

18:08David Law: And they travel in their numbers and they make such a fuss that you just you get swept up by it. I'll stop giving excuses for why I said he would win the French Open now last year. But look, he did look in the last couple of matches and particularly in this one against Tommy Paul. he looked like there was a lot more thought and strategy and kind of nuance to his game than I've been used to. There were still absolutely devastating forehand blows, but there were rallies where he would just loop one on the forehand, rally, slice with the backhand, drop shots. You know, there was a lot more going into the rallies that he was constructing against a very, very good player who, look, I don't think Tommy Paul was at his best.

18:57David Law: I don't know whether Tommy Paul was 100 % fit. Also, I don't know whether Juan Fonseca was 100 % fit. He did have a medical timeout at the end of the first set. But 6-2, 6-3 against Tommy Paul in Indian Wells, that is a scoreline to be taken seriously. And to watch him, he looked a different kind of level and package of player than he certainly has for most of the last year. And this is following up a match against Karen Hatchinov, which I didn't see all of it. I saw the highlights after you drew my attention, Catherine, to his second set tiebreak. And look, he was on the cusp of defeat, wasn't he?

19:39David Law: He was a set down, he's into a tiebreak, and yet he won. So again, I think even that fact is a good sign.

19:47Matt Roberts: Safe match points in that tiebreak against Hatchinov. and he had to be very clutch. You know, Hashanov was playing well and you don't get a lot of chances when he's playing well. You've got to play your best when the chips are down and when it counts and he really did and that's the sort of win, that one that can make you feel a bit bulletproof. He's probably going to need to feel a bit bulletproof because he has got Yannick Sinner next but I am very intrigued by that by the upcoming match. Nike have given Sinner a good kit. In fact, Nike seemed to have... I don't know. It was like they were saving their best for Indian Wells.

20:32Matt Roberts: There's some good Nike stuff happening. I don't know whether they've hit the panic button and upped their game, but I think the lead times on these kits are so long that it can't be that. But Al Karaz has got his orange. Sinner's got his baby pink, which really suits him. Asaka's got her neon leopard print. I like what I'm seeing. And I'm really pumped, Matt, for Sinner against Fonseca. I've no idea when it's happening because I still, I just can't get my head around the cadence of these early rounds in Indian Wells. Like, I just, yeah.

21:11Catherine Whitaker: Tuesday.

21:12Matt Roberts: It's like, right, great. Tomorrow. Brilliant. Excited.

21:17Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. I think there's been a sort of overcorrection with Fonseca, right? It feels like probably we, everyone went too big on Fonseca to begin with. But I feel like too many people have gone too far the other way and have just written him off as this overhyped ball basher now. And I have felt a bit sorry for him, actually, because he's actually been, he's sort of been called out a little bit, hasn't he, by players. I mean, Djokovic called him out this week in terms of the amount of hype he's received. Zverev did it in Australia without actually naming him, but it was sort of obvious who he was talking about.

21:56Catherine Whitaker: But, you know, there was a reason that that hype existed. And OK, maybe it was overkill and maybe he's not going to be the, you know, reliable third guy to Sinner and Alkraz. Maybe he still will be. We don't know. Players do develop at different rates. And, you know, when Sinner was Fonseca's age, I don't think anyone was really talking about him in quite the same terms that they are now in terms of the consistent year round, brilliant threat that he's become. So maybe it's just going to take Fonseca a bit of time. But there's no denying that the top level he has with the weapons that he has is electrifyingly good.

22:36Catherine Whitaker: and we've seen it in flashes and I agree with David that what I liked about the match against Paul was the element of control that he also seemed to have to his game and little bits of variety in there as well so yeah really good week for Fonseca and I'm pleased and I'm intrigued by that match against Sinner as you know first time seeing them come up against each other I've been impressed with Sinner as well this week He seems to have frowned his forehand a little bit more. I think he's not quite sort of exploding on it, but he's not making the errors that he was making on it in Doha. And he also has...

23:15Catherine Whitaker: It's because he's got a good kit. Well, yeah. I can't argue with that.

23:21Matt Roberts: It suits him, doesn't it? It really does. It suits him, the baby pink, yeah.

23:25Catherine Whitaker: And he's also, to me, it seemed like he'd slightly cut out some of the variety a little bit more. It just seemed like he'd streamlined his game yesterday watching him against Shapovalov. So I think Sinner's a pretty big favourite in that one. But I will also be there on Tuesday. Catherine, just saying that again, Tuesday. I appreciate it.

23:49Matt Roberts: Have you seen the video of him emerging from the supermarket with the toilet rolls and signing autographs?

23:56Catherine Whitaker: No, who's him? Sinner?

23:58Matt Roberts: Sinner, yeah. he seems to have done the impossible which is go to a supermarket to buy one specific thing and only come out with that one specific thing he just had a there's people asking for his autograph in the parking lot of the grocery store and he's just got a nine pack of loo roll under his arm how do you not get seduced by the stuff they put near the till that's there just to seduce you or come out with a punnet of olives that you don't need. Who does that? Did they check his pockets? Of course the answer is Yannick Sinner. It's just somehow very Yannick Sinner, isn't it? That he needed Lou Roll.

24:43Matt Roberts: He went to get Lou Roll. He came out with Lou Roll.

24:46David Law: Faffrey, Catherine. Right up your arm.

24:48Matt Roberts: Faffrey. Leonard Tien beat an ill Ben Shelton in three sets. I feel sorry for Ben Shelton because he's being treated as kind of patient zero for this apparent lurgy that seems to be going around Indian Wells. I keep seeing speculation that maybe other players are ill and it's being described as maybe they've got what Ben Shelton's got. And I'm not quite sure what Ben Shelton does have, but he wasn't right, Matt, against Learner TN. That's safe to say.

25:24Catherine Whitaker: No, and he also wasn't right against the Pelka a couple of days before, but he managed to get through that one. But it's such an odd experience watching a subdued Ben Shelton. It really makes you realise how fired up he normally is and the energy he normally brings to the court. All of that had just gone, and he was very laboured in both matches. He was clutching his side a bit as well, and he just didn't look well at all. And actually, I think he made a real go of this one against TN, managed to push it much closer than I thought he would. But eventually sort of didn't quite have it in him in that third set.

26:09Catherine Whitaker: And it's been good to see TN, you know, he gets a lot of support in Indian Wells. And it's nice for him to sort of be going on this little run. But it was a tough watch for Shelton. I really felt for him.

26:26Matt Roberts: He's got Alejandro Davidovic-Vikina next, who beat Jakub Mensik. David, you watched Alexander Zverev last night beat Brandon Akashima, albeit somewhat unconvincingly. Kind of looked like Zverev of old rather than the Zverev that, well, he's been telling us he wants to be now in terms of the way he wants to play, particularly in the big moments.

26:53David Law: Yeah, it was very interesting. It was an interesting match. It was quite similar to the match he played against Miriam Ketsmanovic a couple of weeks ago in Ecopolco, where he's faced somebody who strikes the ball very well and is serving well and the score is close. And on that occasion, he lost. On this occasion, he won. but I think it's not easy to play the sort of aggressive tennis he wants when it's windy in Indian Wells and when probably the court doesn't fly through the court in quite the same way and he ended up reverting to type really and maybe you've just got to do that maybe you've got to accept that you can't always win it the way you want and he did hit some bigger balls at the end But I think you're seeing a problem that he always runs into eventually.

27:43David Law: He'll find somebody who's in really good form, who just can kind of handle his game and make him keep playing balls and putting pressure on him. And honestly, Nakashima, I think, should have won this match, really. He should have won the first set. He had five break points in it, which Zverev didn't have. but Zverev is very good at just sticking around and not losing matches when it's close. He wins most of them, and Nakashima, I think, doesn't. And I did sense at the end when they shook hands that Zverev was kind of explaining it away at the net by saying how well Nakashima had played. I'm slightly damning with faint praise, isn't it?

28:32David Law: You're complimenting the guy you've just beaten. and I think it helps you deal with the fact that you haven't played as well as you wanted to because I don't think he was that good. He's going to have to really raise his game given the players he's coming up against next. I mean, I think Francis Tiafoe next who looks in really good form.

28:52Matt Roberts: Yeah, he absolutely manhandled Flavio Caballi. Revenge for the Acapulco final and confirmation that Matt's take, of course, was right. We're going to have to ride the highs and lows with Flavio. Carlos Alcaraz. Matt, you've written here in the agenda, Alcaraz looked sharp in his 6-2, 6-3 win over Dimitrov. I thought he looked devastating. Like, it was one of those performances where I was like, I hope the rest of men's tennis and the locker room aren't watching this because it would make you want to just retire on the spot, quite frankly, pack up and go home. There's no point. That was how I felt about that performance.

29:40Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe my Alcaraz expectations are too high and now I'm underselling Alcaraz. Yeah, he was great and particularly good because it was really windy conditions that night, wasn't it? I know he's talked a lot in the past about not liking the windy, But actually, he is well set up to play in those conditions. His footwork being so precise, the spin he adds to the ball. He's got good hands. So if the ball just moves on him at the last moment, he can adjust to that. And I think now he's really got the temperament as well to play in the wind, you know, with the fewer ups and downs that he has in matches and the joy that he's bringing to the court all the time.

30:22Catherine Whitaker: He can handle if something's a little bit frustrating. Yeah, he was great. And as you said, the kit's great. He's got the sort of mullet adjacent hair.

30:34Matt Roberts: I don't love the mullet, but I do love the kit. Yeah.

30:40Catherine Whitaker: I quite like the hair, actually. I think it's grown out really well. It's Flavio Caballi. Yeah, and a bit men's sick as well.

30:50Matt Roberts: Yeah, it's young men's 2026 hair. It's only a matter of time before your son's asking for it.

30:57David Law: Oh, he had one that was a bit similar to that yesterday. Oh, he's already done the mullet? I mean, at least it's tidied it up a bit. So, you know, you've got to take what you can at this age.

31:10Matt Roberts: Poor old Grigel Dimitrov, David. I don't think he played badly. He just did not know what had hit him. Or he did know what had hit him. It was 12 in a row Carlos Alcaraz that had hit him. I was watching this match thinking, God, 12 in a row doesn't feel that silly.

31:27David Law: Great. We're Cabali guys together. Now we're 12 in a row guys. Look, I do think Dimitrov is realistic enough. I mean, I really think he knows tennis to know that he could have done nothing in that match to really change things. Sometimes people just are on it. And if Carlos Alcraz is on it, he has a level that nobody else has. and Dimitrov was laughing at it. I mean, it was gallows humour, really, and it was at the net, just, wow, you're playing too good. So, yeah, I mean, I think it's a great challenge for players on one level until they then run into it and realise their incremental gains are not going to be able to touch this guy if he's playing like that.

32:22David Law: But, you know, maybe he won't play like that against you, is the hope.

32:29Matt Roberts: Now that Djokovic had to come from a set down against Camille Mayershack. Matt, what did we make of this?

32:41Catherine Whitaker: God, what a big question. Yeah, I feel like...

32:45Matt Roberts: I don't even know, I don't know how to frame the question with Djokovic and India, but like, I don't know, what's he hoping for from India miles? Is he there just to have a nice time?

32:57Catherine Whitaker: It's kind of like none of it matters. And yet, given he's there, we should talk about him. And it was a good recovery in this match because he started all over the place. I mean, in the third set, he was sort of gagging and really struggling physically. There was an incredibly long rally that he ended up on the floor and sort of gasping for breath after. a very familiar, I know about Djokovic experience that we've all witnessed in the last couple of years where he has looked a little bit short physically in some matches and then you even dare to write him off and he goes and beats Yannick Sinner in five sets in the Australian Open semifinal and pushes Carlos Alcaraz.

33:39Catherine Whitaker: So, you know, what does it all mean? I do think in this stage in his career that he used to have a great record in Indian Wells, didn't he? but he actually hasn't played very well there in quite a while. And I do think some of the ways developed as a player now, obviously he can still play well in Indian Wells, but I don't think it quite suits him quite so much. You know, like he wants now to be able to get cheap points off the serve. And I know that the ace rate does seem to be up a little bit in Indian Wells this year, but he also wants to get the forehand skidding through. And the way it just bounces up, it just doesn't really quite feel like it suits him.

34:17Catherine Whitaker: to quite the same extent. But if he's in it and engaged and motivated, then I'm sure he can figure all of that stuff out. And, you know, he's a good presence to have in the draw and it's going to be interesting to see if he can navigate his way through. But yeah, it wasn't. This was not the Novak Djokovic we saw at the back end of the Australian Open.

34:39David Law: By the way, just on Djokovic, I noticed he was asked again about his proposed end date to his career. and he's once again talking about the Olympics in three years time. I mean, he seems, he's not afraid to put it out there and say, look, I'd like to, I don't know whether I'll be able to, but I'd like to play in it. So, wow.

35:01Matt Roberts: Yeah, there's this weird situation where sort of everybody's analysing every move he makes. Like at one point he, I think during a practice, he sort of knelt down and did something profound looking like kissed the court or something or like, you know, waved at people in a sort of poignant looking way. And it's like, oh, oh, this definitely means he's there to say goodbye. And it's like, no, in every press conference, he's telling us that he intends to play for another 2.5 years minimum. It's a, yeah, it's a slightly odd situation, but compelling, compelling as always. Jack Draper, on his return to Indian Wells as defending champion, has a slightly better kit than what he had in Dubai.

35:50Matt Roberts: And he... Yeah, much better. I still don't love it, but...

35:55Catherine Whitaker: But we were at zero out of ten. It's not lost property. Yeah.

35:58Matt Roberts: Yeah, we're at a four. Effort. I think it's better than that.

36:03Catherine Whitaker: But, okay.

36:06Matt Roberts: He recovered from a set down to beat Roberto Bautista Agu, which is a, he would have been nervous ahead of this, David, I think, Jack Draper. And I think that's a banana skin navigated for him.

36:23David Law: Yeah. But it's a good, I mean, I think he's extraordinary, really. He's another one who's getting on a bit, and yet he still is able to produce this metronomic tennis. A bit of a nightmare to play against if you're a bit out of kind of rhythm of playing tennis matches. and Jack Draper's played so little. And as you say, coming in as defending champion, he would have been excited, anxious, all those things. And there is going to be this unknown as to how his arm is going to react every time he plays. And he looked pretty good, I thought. You know, it wasn't great, but he got himself through it.

37:03David Law: And he doesn't look, say, as comfortable as Fies has on his return yet, but I think he would have absolutely taken this. As long as he's pain-free, that's all that matters if he's able to get through matches because the rest of it should come.

37:19Matt Roberts: Feast has been looking good, David, doesn't he?

37:21David Law: Sure has. Sure has. I mean, it's hard to believe that he's had the seriousness of injury that he's had, a stress fracture to the back. Maybe it is just one of those injuries that if you do the right things with and you have to rest it, they say and I always remember Katie Bolter having it sort of six seven years ago and she's gone on to have a really good career without that seemingly being a big problem for her he doesn't look like he's thinking about any injury at all and and that's that's a win over Martin Fuchovic that he's had there who played some decent stuff and who'd beaten Lorenzo Mazzetti in the previous round I realise Mazzetti's far from his 100 % and feeling his best at the moment but with Feast there just looks like a real clarity of thought a little bit like we were talking about with Fonseca there's just a there's not these moments where he gets excited and suddenly goes off the rails because he's trying to hit the ball too hard there's a much more of a clear idea I think and I think partially with Goran involved albeit not in America for this next month but I think there's a maturity and just a sort of confidence and I think he plays Felix Ogiali as Seam next which is a player he played against in his second, his first tournament back actually and he got handily beaten and you know Felix is playing really well this year I still think there are fitness question marks over him I've watched him in a couple of matches where he just looks like he's struggling with his knee or something isn't quite right but that'll be interesting It's another barometer, isn't it, as you try to measure yourself how far along your comeback you are.

39:08Yeah.

39:10Matt Roberts: Last men's match or men's incident to talk about. What on earth, Matt, happened to Luciano Darderi at the end of his defeat to Rinki Hidjakarta?

39:28Catherine Whitaker: I'm so glad you've come to me on this. I did enjoy this. else he's two match points down is dardari and the decider against hijikata and mid rally he's having to stretch for a forehand and he puts up he puts up a defensive lob and stops the point and asks for a hindrance basically to be called on his opponent he seemed to think that hijikata had said oh my god mid rally um actually what had happened is that someone in the crowd had said something and therefore the umpire was like well all you've done there is call a hindrance on yourself like you you're the one who has stopped the rally and put hejikarta off by making by making a fuss out of this therefore you're going to lose the point and the match on on this point i mean I've never seen that before like trying to call a hindrance on your opponent and the umpire like no it was it was you who's caused the hindrance there and therefore this match is over because it's match point the umpire went through the sort of process of checking the video review and was like nope I'm sticking by my decision um and Dardaria was absolutely furious about it um

40:45Matt Roberts: yeah wild scenes this is only anecdotal but i really feel like hindrance drama is massively on the rise we've over indexed on hindrance drama for 2026 right yeah i think you might be right we've we have talked about it quite a lot long may it continue because it's perked matt right up yeah it has i do love a bit of hindrance

41:09Catherine Whitaker: drama and i also like i do love the crowd getting involved um obviously like shouting out mid rally isn't isn't great but i i just i just find it a tough scene sometimes when like the crowd gets blamed for being excited about tennis like i sort of think that's what we want from the sport like obviously there's going to be some sort of individuals who are annoying but generally like crowd being excited I think good thing and it has been have you ever blown Indian Wells seeing what they've done to Stadium 2 have you seen this where they yeah I wonder if they'll row back on this because it's such a clear misstep it's so bad like so you used to be able to get into Stadium 2

41:50Matt Roberts: which is the second court at Indian Wells a big court and it's big it's really big sometimes I see it on the telly and I'm like what is that is that Centre Court and now obviously Centre Court is even more enormous.

42:02Catherine Whitaker: But you used to be able to get into that court with a grounds pass and it seems that now you can't. And unfortunately, a lot of the matches on that stadium have been suffering. Clearly, like, the thing to do, if you're going to buy a stadium, if you're going to buy a stadium ticket, you'll buy it for the main stadium. And yeah, just the crowds have been down on that court, which is just feels like such an open goal. really. Yeah.

42:32Matt Roberts: Yeah, absolutely. There have been some really, really tough scenes out there because the draw is so stacked in Indian Wells. Stadium two gets some awesome matches. I mean, Stadium four gets awesome matches, but you know, Stadium two is getting sort of Grand Slam quarter final level matches in these early rounds. And yeah, it's tough to see them not have the crowd that they deserve. Okay, that's it for part two. We'll be back in part three to talk about the women. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the 14500 use the ServiceNow AI platform.

43:10Matt Roberts: While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.

43:57David Law: Your business is only as strong as your connection. AT &T Business is the reliable provider built for that exact brand of hustle, so you can stay focused on the work that builds your legacy. Powered by AT &T Business. Built to work. Get AT &T Business at business.att.com.

44:19Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of today's tennis podcast. the women's matches that we've seen so far in India miles let's start with Coco Gough and the incredibly rare sight of her retiring last night against Alexandra Ayala only the the second retirement of her career she described it as a weird pain in her left arm that she was experiencing obviously a great worry worry for everybody it goes without saying but Coco Goff's physicality and her physical robustness David is such a huge pillar of her game and her identity as a tennis player I don't know it feels like the world is out of order seeing Coco Goff having to retire

45:12David Law: I don't really remember seeing that before I don't remember seeing her retire before I don't really remember seeing her look bothered physically by something that often um maybe there is something that I'm that I'm just forgetting but but it was really jarring seeing her come to the net and explain it to Alexandre Arlo and and she's got she's got that sleeve on her forearm and and and so was obviously already experiencing some issue and was just looked really worried about it. You know, this is a player she'd beaten handily a couple of weeks ago. Suddenly she's winning a couple of games in the hole, you know, out of 10.

45:53David Law: And just looked, oh, I need to get off the court and find out what's going on here because she was worried. And yeah, we don't need that. Nobody does.

46:05Matt Roberts: Yeah, fingers crossed for Coco Gough. that's as much as we know at the moment but we will keep you posted Matt let's continue the Matt Goodmood from Hindrance Drama to an absolutely sublime performance from Amanda Anisimova 6-1, 6-1 against Emma Adekanu late last night she was she was a steam train it was I mean that just must have felt amazing for her to be hitting the ball like that. And for you, obviously.

46:41Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, it was one of those where I was wondering, am I going to be able to make it to the end of this match? You know, it was pushing, I think, maybe 11, gone 11 in the UK by the time it started. The two matches before had both gone to deciding sets. But I definitely had an hour still in me and that was all that was needed. And look, I take no pleasure in seeing Emerita Khan, sort of beaten like that um but from a amanda nissimova perspective it was an astonishingly good performance and so quickly you knew oh she's playing well here she's hitting she's hitting the ball like a dream just in the first game there was power and control coming off her racket and it was a absolute demolition really i think we all remember the radhikaru nissimova match from the Australian Open last year where, you know, Raducanu really caused Anissimova a lot of problems and put the ball in awkward spots.

47:41Catherine Whitaker: But I think we're seeing in this matchup, you kind of see the progress that Anissimova has made since then. And she beat her very handily in Canada last year. And this match looked a lot more like the Canada one than the Australian Open one. Just a huge discrepancy in the ball striking and the power coming off off the strings it was it was all anisimova really she won 53 points to 21 she hit 21 winners to two she absolutely destroyed radakhanu's serve and she served really well herself anisimova only losing six points on serve in the entire match and you know i'd watched radakhanu in the previous round against uh zakarova and she'd been really good i thought was her best performance of the season she was convincing she was playing with conviction hitting her shots going after her shots playing in the way that she's talked about wanting to play and look I don't think I think she was at her best last night but it was just an exact it was just a reminder of like you can't always do that against certain opponents and it reminded me a little bit of Raducanu's match against Rabatkin at the US Open last year and I remember thinking oh Raducanu's look quite good this tournament i think she might push we're back in her and then she can't she can't get the strike in like the the first strike is just coming from down the other end and you know you sort of kind of want radhikarnu to maybe mix that's where you want her to sort of try and mix some things up and use the other parts of her game because there are bigger and better hitters of a tennis ball than her she's not going to be able to and out hit and then it's some over and she just couldn't But I do think, as you say, the main story of this match was how brilliant Anisimova was and just how comfortable she seemed on court.

49:38Catherine Whitaker: And coming off the back of the opening set, she played against Blinkover in this tournament, which was a mess, just unforced error after unforced error, and she lost it. She's then played four brilliant sets, having dropped that initial one. So, yeah, it's been a very good tournament so far for her. but she's in a section of the draw that is absolutely stacked because she now plays Mboko, like first meeting between them. Cannot wait for that. And then the winner of that... When's that? SOS wins that. I think it might be Tuesday again. Tuesday. It's all happening on Tuesday. And then the winner of that will play the winner of Sabalenko-Osaka.

50:19Catherine Whitaker: Like that section of the draw is just so good.

50:26Matt Roberts: Yeah, Sabalenka-Osaka happening for the first time since 2018. Yes, please. She's looked good, I think, Naomi Osaka.

50:37Catherine Whitaker: And that US Open match in 2018. Yeah, the fourth round.

50:42Matt Roberts: The only set, I think, that Osaka dropped en route to that title.

50:45Catherine Whitaker: And it really did feel like the winner of that could go on to win the title, even when it was happening. And you just think of the different directions there. Their careers have gone in and taken since that moment and they've had such different trajectories to, what is it, four slam titles each. I can't wait for it. Yeah, that's such a good point. Can't wait for it.

51:11Matt Roberts: She's looked good, Osaka, hasn't she, David?

51:13David Law: Yeah, I was not convinced, you may remember a couple of months ago, about Osaka's form coming into that Australian Open. and I don't know, there was something in her performances and even the way she was speaking that everything just felt a little bit off. And I thought, oh, she doesn't seem like she's in the good place she was heading into that US Open last year. That feels different again this time. I watched this match against Camilla Osorio, and yes, she dropped the second set, but I felt like that was an aberration. I felt like that was one dodgy game, and then she didn't quite get back on serve.

51:52David Law: But the rest of it was honestly a demolition. She was moving incredibly well. She looked in a great space, sort of mentally out there, just looked happy and excited to be out there and was hitting the ball a ton, you know, just crushing it. Now, I do remember seeing the first round that Raducanu played and thinking, oh, she's hitting the ball well. and what you're facing can dictate what you're able to do. And Nisimova was just giving her a totally different ball to Raducanu. She couldn't handle it at all. Obviously, Sabalenka's ball is going to be very different to Osorio. So how Osaka adapts to that is going to be fascinating.

52:36David Law: I still think back to the US Open match she played against Nisimova where she looked, even though she almost won it, She looked really shocked by how she wasn't really able to play it on her own racket in the way she was used to because of the sheer weight of shock coming her way. So she's going to have to be so light on her feet. But I actually think if she has a good day and can get into the match, she could win it. You know, I would I think you'd make a Sabalenka the favorite if you've got any sense because of all the last few years. But this looked like Naomi Osaka to me.

53:11Matt Roberts: Hmm. Okay. Jasmine Paolini has been winning tennis matches Matt which in 2026 is a headline because she hasn't been I mean she's been doing it the hard way she's been toughing them out I think Anastasia Potapova and Ilya Tomljanovic two three set wins and now she's got sensation Talia Gibson who qualified and has beaten Anne Lee, Katerina Alexandrova and Clara Towson. It's been a tough old season for Jasmine Paolini and she needed this.

53:52Catherine Whitaker: Big time. Yeah, big time. I mean, she got a few wins, didn't she, in Merida, but then was poor against Bookshare, wasn't she, in that match. And here she's, yeah, I think you're right. I think the nature of the wins has been important toughing out some wins, you know, because she's probably still not at her best, but trying to just get over the line and build confidence that way, I think has been helpful. And she is in the section of the draw that has opened up a bit with Goff going out. So there is an opportunity there for whoever. I mean, there's plenty of good players still, including Ayala herself, who beat Paolini the other week and obviously, you know, was playing well against Goff before Goff retired.

54:41Catherine Whitaker: So there's an opportunity, I guess, for Paolini. But I think everyone in that section will be thinking there's an opportunity as well. But it is good to see. Like, I'm happier when Jasmine Paolini is winning tennis matches.

54:54Matt Roberts: You just don't want the you don't want to have cursed her with tennis podcast meets. You don't want to be the problem. It's very important.

55:01Catherine Whitaker: It's very important that David didn't David didn't like cause the Jasmine Paolini like surge by by the good draw thing. and they don't need to end it by the tennis podcast meets curse. We can't have a sort of book-ended tennis podcast, Jasmine Paolini situation going on.

55:21Matt Roberts: David, Elena Rabachner needed three sets against Hayley Baptiste. This is a really entertaining match.

55:29David Law: Yeah, three very different sets though. It was never a question of them both playing well at the same time. I mean, Rebacca had a really bad second set and lost it one-sidedly. But Baptiste is such a clever player. She gets her off balance a little more than I think a lot of players do. She was able to use the wind to her benefit. And I actually think Rebacca did well in the end to come through this match. But I don't quite know where she is form-wise yet. I don't know how comfortable she is when it is windy. I often think, stick Rebecca in her indoors, and how the heck do you beat her? Because these still conditions enable her to just tee off and time the ball perfectly.

56:15David Law: But that isn't the case in these conditions. Baptiste feels like she's definitely still got more to come in her game. I feel like she'll have a higher ranking in the future than she has right now. but you know in the end you saw why one of them is kind of a champion who's used to winning tight

56:37Matt Roberts: matches I suppose in the end yeah defending champion Mira Andreva double bageled poor old Solana Sierra David Antonia Ruzic she knocked out Jung Chinwen who's still very much on the the comeback trail 6475 did you ever get a reply from coran about antonia rusic i feel like we need to we need to know some stuff about her she's she's popping up more and more yeah i don't

57:09David Law: know whether it's possible to sort of light up in a whatsapp message but i got the sense that coran was lighting up talking about a fellow fellow croatian um doing doing good things on the tennis tour you know and and he didn't seem particularly surprised he said she she's good but I think maybe I'm surprised at the nature of some of the wins. And look, that is a player coming back to the sport who's probably not at her best at the moment. But this isn't isolated. Either Ruzic is just running into people that are top players who have all got problems, or she's actually a better player than that.

57:47David Law: And I think that's the truth. I think she is a better player than that. Good sort of solid base to her game. um you know not my my wife's creation and her first response when i tell her about a player like rizic is oh is she young you know is she is she new you know and and she kind of is new but she's not that young she's sort of she's not old but she's sort of she's been around a little while and made her way through the through the rankings and is is kind of certainly doing more than i think most people I know thought she would have done but sometimes people just get comfortable don't they at a level they get into a draw like a Dubai or a Doha and then get into an Indian Wells and they realise oh my game isn't out of its comfort zone here I can play

58:38Matt Roberts: yeah one to watch for sure Matt?

58:40Catherine Whitaker: The WTA website says that Rucic was a karate champion in Croatia growing up which is quite fun

58:51Matt Roberts: yeah okay do you trust the WCA website? on that sort of thing

58:58Catherine Whitaker: yeah be an odd thing to make up wouldn't it?

59:01Matt Roberts: yeah that would be absolutely wild even for the WCA website Matt Iga Sviantek it's a bizarre match against Kayla Day 6-love 7-6 what did we make of Iga Svantec and this match in general she got Maria Sackery next to Svantec probably on Tuesday

59:24Catherine Whitaker: nothing's today actually no

59:32Catherine Whitaker: honestly Svantec is so fascinating to me right now and has been for a while to be honest and it's second set I sort of really realised that it's second sets for the Eagles Fiontech that are so compelling right now. Having a look at her record, her two losses at the WTA finals last year were both from a set-up, went wrong in the second set. The United Cup, if we remember, she had those horror second sets against Benchich, which she lost 6-0, and Goff, which she could easily have lost 6-0 before a little rally at the end. In Australia, she had that strange second set against Kalinskaya, and then she got blown out by Rabakina in the second set.

1:00:12Catherine Whitaker: And what makes it so interesting against Sakari now is that it was against Sakari in Doha when she lost from a set up and that was the first time she'd lost at a 1000 event from a set up you know she is the great front runner of the WTA tour over the last few years Fiontech so it's really odd to see things just going a bit wrong in the second set and I think part of it is you know the way tennis matches work right like if you've lost the first set and suddenly you're down in the score as an opponent I think opponents are freeing up a little bit maybe more in these second sets and playing playing with fewer inhibitions and putting therefore a bit more pressure on Igor Shvontek that's certainly what happened here Kayla Day was just a totally different player in that second set compared to the first one but then she found it difficult to actually close it out and win it and and Shvontek managed to rally from from a real deficit in that second set to still win in straight sets but something is something's different right because she used to sviontek just keep it up all the time and keep the foot on the gas and once she was ahead in a match she was so hard to come back against these days could it be as we've talked about a lot you know the serve being less reliable and leading to pressure that she's facing on serve and opponents i think just i think the aura has being chipped away at a little bit as well and i think players know now that there is an opportunity and they they're not just beaten as soon as they start that second set having lost the first so it's really interesting to follow there was a lot of good tennis in that match from sviontek and she does like these conditions in indian wells um and i would expect her still to beat zachary personally um but yeah like there's there's a pattern developing i suppose is what i'm saying and that's been interesting to observe.

1:02:10Matt Roberts: And the thing for Sakari in this match is suddenly there's a bit of expectation on her because she beat Shontek last time around and that really changes the dynamic for her. So I think I'd still back Shontek but it's, yeah, I mean she's utterly compelling at the moment, is Igor Shontek and there's a lot of fascinating matches been set up on mostly Tuesday by the sounds of things, but there must be some happening today as well. We've seen everybody play now at least once. At this point, with a week to go of Indian Wells, who are you picking to win the titles?

1:02:55Catherine Whitaker: Well, Alcaraz.

1:02:57Matt Roberts: Yeah, I mean, Alcaraz.

1:03:02Catherine Whitaker: Women's is hard. women's is very hard but look screw it and this is over

1:03:13Matt Roberts: there we go David Matt didn't buy you much time there to think did he

1:03:19David Law: I thought he was going to deliberate a bit longer it's difficult isn't it you're going Alcaraz right yes I mean based on what I've seen certainly Sinner and Alcaraz look the best in the draw

1:03:32Catherine Whitaker: also i have noticed the forecast for the end of the tournament is very very hot like really hot you know like over 90 fahrenheit pushing 100 and like you know if we if for example we were to get an alcaraz sinner in those latter stages in those sorts of conditions you'd be sort of backing alcaraz as well so that's that's a factor um but obviously the main factor is just how good alcaraz is

1:04:01David Law: yeah yeah it's crikey it's it's really difficult this um i i mean i think the sensible thing to do is to go for sabalenka but i'm actually i i think i'm going to say i think it's going to be the winner of sabalenka and osaka because i think osaka could win you find osaka so hard to resist i do prediction i do i sort of think i love that a big one is going to come her way at some point if she plays her best tennis and I felt she was getting towards it in September last year. I think she's getting towards it now.

1:04:40Matt Roberts: It's the US Open 2018 all over again. The winner of Osaka Savalenka wins the title.

1:04:49Catherine Whitaker: Do you have a hunch, Catherine?

1:04:53Matt Roberts: Well, the last tennis I watched was that Anisimova performance and that looked, I mean, that looked absolutely unplayable, but also it looked like, you know, it looked like sort of flow state. You can't expect to be turning up in a tennis court and playing like that, you know, that sort of match you play once or twice a season, isn't it? But my God, she looked good.

1:05:17Catherine Whitaker: And that's interesting, isn't it? Like Osaka, Sabalenka, Nisimova, the players we talked about there, all in that bit of the draw together that I've talked about. I do think the other half seems a little bit more open. You've got Rabatkinner and you've got Sviontek.

1:05:32Matt Roberts: Yeah, she should probably be saying Rabatkinner, shouldn't we? Or Pagula.

1:05:38Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, although Pagula talks about not liking the Indian Wells conditions quite so much.

1:05:45Matt Roberts: Yeah, I don't think of her as an Indian Wells girl.

1:05:48Catherine Whitaker: But it wouldn't shock me if she managed to figure them out and win. She beat Vekic, didn't she, in three sets, having said that in the opening set she was blinded by Vekic's diamonds.

1:06:02Matt Roberts: Good promo for the diamonds there for Vekic. I think she'd take that. Probably over the win. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's Andreva as well, you know, defending champion. She loves it there. We know the tennis is good enough. It's all a kind of temperament question with Androva at the moment, isn't it?

1:06:28Matt Roberts: Maybe I'll go for Anisimova just because recency bias. The last two performances I watched were Alcaraz and Anisimova. And my thoughts during both of them were, well, no one can beat this. So let's go with that. What can go wrong? I can't believe it's taken me this long to mention the Eisenhower Cup my apologies to the Eisenhower Cup it's the event that I imagine is probably a bit annoyed that it's been somewhat gazumped by US Open mixed doubles because it used to sort of

1:07:05David Law: on one point slam

1:07:08Matt Roberts: yeah I guess so because it used to be you know the flag bearer for these sort of novelty mixed pre-event events and now it's just sort of a shit version of something that happens as well but look it it's quite fun it is fun it is fun i'm being i'm being rude it is fun taylor fritz friggin loves it the odd couple vibes between him and Elena Rabakina were just endlessly fascinating to me. And they've defended their title. And that's quite funny.

1:07:51Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, it is. They beat Anisimova and Tien. Oh, I wasn't across this, as you can tell.

1:08:01Matt Roberts: Anisimova was supposed to play with Rublev, but he was detained in Dubai. so she got potentially an upgrade.

1:08:10Catherine Whitaker: And then the interview at the end of the event, it was Coco Vanderwey during the interview, she asked, Lerner Tien, are you going to partner with Anissim over again next year? And he said, I'm very proud of our efforts.

1:08:34Catherine Whitaker: and then realised I think that that sounded like a no and said now it's great to be partnered with someone so good as a Nisimora champion like her. That's still a no. She did have a bit of a disaster in that final Nisimora it has to be said.

1:08:53David Law: I did also like Tien's ATP content video the other week when he was asked for his sort of what's your sort of dream in life you know, he said not to have an office job

1:09:08Catherine Whitaker: Yes, I saw that Yeah

1:09:12Matt Roberts: Tennis player in In being relatable Shocker He initially said, they said what was your biggest

1:09:21David Law: fear was to have an office job

1:09:27David Law: some people are saying sharks but no

1:09:31Matt Roberts: that's like my um my friend monique in her gcse french um oral her mind went a bit blank she she the role play she got was um eating meals food food and drink eating out and the first question was what food do you not like are there any foods you don't like and her mind went blank and all she could remember was viands which is meat so she said I don't like meat and then she was asked what do you like to eat and obviously the only vocabulary at this point she had been able to remember was was meat and she'd already ruled that out um so she'd she'd driven herself down a bit of a cul-de-sac. Was that relevant?

1:10:18Matt Roberts: Who can say? There was a...

1:10:28Catherine Whitaker: I didn't think there was going to be more to that story.

1:10:37Matt Roberts: Well, she ended up just saying viand in answer to everything, in answer to what she did like and what she didn't like, because it was the only vocabulary she could remember. Yeah. She, yeah. She didn't end up in a languages profession.

1:10:54Matt Roberts: There was a, there was that uncomfortable moment in the trophy ceremony, in the photo shoot bit after the trophy ceremony, which has gone a bit viral of the couple of men involved with the tournament presenting Fritz and Rabakina with the trophy and standing there to have photos taken and one of them's got his arm around her back in a, I mean, fairly innocuous way, but, you know, just a bit too much. And she eventually removes it very, very subtly from her back. And it's, I mean, it's the sort of thing that women will watch and go, oh, yeah, this shit's happening all the time, everywhere, and good for her for doing something about it.

1:11:42Matt Roberts: She was asked about it by Charlie Eccleshare, in fact, in press, and she said, not a big deal, nothing to see here. But we did see it, and it's bullshit. So there we go. Happy International Women's Day to everybody. Speaking of International Women's Day, we recorded our latest edition of Tennis Relived on Friday. Matt, would you like to tell the people, give them a little tease or a little promo, entice everybody to listen to our Alice Marble Relived episode?

1:12:22Catherine Whitaker: yeah Alice Marble a fascinating person so much mystery surrounding her life she's a sort of unreliable narrator of her own life and there are there are a couple of extraordinary tales that she tells in her memoir that we got into of a wartime romance and a wartime spy saga um and you know did those events happen did they not happen what does it say about Alice Marble and the time that she felt like she needed to say those events as though they as though they did happen we sort of got into all that as well we talked about her career that saw her overcome a bout of real illness and then come back to the sport and win major titles and be the dominant player before the Second World War broke out and she wasn't able to then go on winning the major titles because everything stopped.

1:13:33Catherine Whitaker: So it's kind of what could have been about her career as well. we talked about her important allyship in the in the fight for social justice and breaking down the color barrier in tennis she was a big supporter of athier gibson and wrote a very powerful moving letter which went a long way to to helping athier gibson be able to to play at the top of the sport um and we did all of that with hannah hannah wilkes our our phenomenal uh writer and captain of the barge and she she knows all about uh alice marble from having researched eleanor teach tenant who was alice marble's coach and hannah just brought a lot of incredible research and perspective on that relationship and the boundaries that were crossed in it and the complicated sort of messy nature of that sort of coaching relationship very relevant to a lot of what we talk about today in the tennis world as well so so many different aspects of Alice Marble's story and it took us two hours to talk about it all but yeah it's it's up now for friends and yeah it's a very very special show it was very long promo i apologize

1:14:56Matt Roberts: well it's a long show so that's that's fitting it's still shorter than our andy murray's near misses the australian open show which which tells you something yeah that's the that's the depth and

1:15:09Catherine Whitaker: breadth of tennis relived 100 years apart there we've got our two opening our two opening shows

1:15:16Matt Roberts: yeah I loved it and it is up now for Friends of the Pod and if you'd like to become a friend of the pod get access to that and all of our bonus content then the link of course is in our show notes folks I would like to introduce you to our mascot for this episode it is Ludo Ludo is owned by Gail and this is what Gail tells us about Ludo who is what a good boy Ludo is a 7 year old black German shepherds living in Brooklyn, New York. He loves long park walks, hiking, summers at the beach, begging for cheese and rearranging pillows to his liking. That could be a description of me. He adores tennis balls and can even sniff them out.

1:16:00Matt Roberts: He knows where the tennis courts are in our neighbourhood and will inspect the surrounding bushes until he finds a souvenir ball. His favourite player is Yannick Sinner. He has a large toy carrot to show his support. I think you'll find Gail that he ought to have a fox but he's all right with carrots as David established at the French Open but he relates to Matteo Berrettini because of his devastating good looks, barrel chest and tendency to carry an injury. Last summer Ludo needed an emergency surgery and was in the hospital during the first few days of the US Open. I got the call that he was out of surgery and doing well while attending the mixed doubles to distract myself.

1:16:40Matt Roberts: I was quite literally sitting behind Shulton and Townsend while they were serving. So I will always associate the good vibes of the mixed doubles with Ludo's Road to Recovery, as well as the many, many hours of Catherine, David and Matt that have filled my ears on our walks throughout the year. That is a lovely description and tribute to a gorgeous dog. What a good boy he is. Very slobbery, but we don't mind that. hello and hello and thank you to ludo and to gail uh hello to our mascots to bodie we continue to ride that cabali wave bodie to uh maizey and to roger as well hello to our top folks and executive producers greg chris and jeff and it's over to matt for some shout outs and we start with ian

1:17:35Catherine Whitaker: Farrand who is from Winchester. Hi Ian. Hello Ian. Ian says I had a quick chat with Matt and Catherine when making my debut spectating at Flushing Meadows last year and we shared some words about just how bad Madison Keyes had been.

1:17:53Matt Roberts: Ah yes. I mean she was bad yeah.

1:17:57Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. I'd forgotten that. Lost to Zara Zua. Ian says that got me halfway in my podcast slam. having previously spoken to you on him and hill a few years ago. So he's trying to speak to us at all the slams, which is fantastic. Great idea, Ian. OK, that's new terminology.

1:18:20Matt Roberts: I love that, a new concept.

1:18:21Catherine Whitaker: He says he couldn't find any of us in Paris two years ago, so that's an excuse to return. You don't need an excuse.

1:18:31Matt Roberts: Dennis Ian's. Ian Flanagan, Flamania.

1:18:36David Law: I love it when you talk about flan mania me too

1:18:43Matt Roberts: fantastic thank you Ian see you somewhere soon Paris or Paris or Melbourne maybe

1:18:53Catherine Whitaker: we've also got Andrew who wants to also shout out his 8 year old Spoodle Cockapoo he's written Spoodle slash Cockapoo who he calls Harry, like Harry Hopman, he says.

1:19:11Matt Roberts: Well, I appreciate that effort. A spoodle slash cockapoo.

1:19:15Catherine Whitaker: Yes, I'm a bit confused by the... OK. By that.

1:19:20Matt Roberts: Because a spoodle... Well, there's a spoodle, which is a springer and a poodle. OK. Intriguing.

1:19:28Catherine Whitaker: Very intriguing.

1:19:28Matt Roberts: How many spaniels were involved in this creation?

1:19:32Catherine Whitaker: and Andrew says Rafael Nadal is our favourite player and we were lucky enough to grab last minute tickets to the 2022 Australian Open final

1:19:42Matt Roberts: oh

1:19:43David Law: good work Andrew

1:19:44Matt Roberts: wow Andrew well I mean you've had the definitive Rafael Nadal experience I suppose you could say Roland Garros but I don't think he gets better than the miracle in Melbourne Andrew like Andrew Richardson incredible former coach Yes, who coached...

1:20:02David Law: Emerita Canu to US Open glory. I wonder what would happen if that had carried on. Who knows?

1:20:09Matt Roberts: Wow. Very good, David. You're on fire.

1:20:13Catherine Whitaker: And finally, we have Alison Heather, who has got this shout-out for Philip Wong as a prize for winning their own 2025 Tennis Predictions competition.

1:20:28Matt Roberts: Oh, that's so cool.

1:20:31Catherine Whitaker: They've been friends since journalism school 25 years ago. They're from Toronto, Canada. And Philip got Alison into tennis over six years ago, and they talk incessantly about the pod all the time. Philip's hope is that Alison will join him doing the fan slam. For years, Alison's mum, Susan, and Philip's sister, Sandra, would join them on a Google Doc to predict the singles quarterfinals the finals to winners of all the slams the thousands as well um sadly they lost sandra in 2022 and susan in 2024 so this shout out also goes to them sandra wong and susan painter and alison says now it's the two of us left making predictions we miss them immensely but thank you to the tennis podcast team for seeing us through these challenging times we gladly show you the real Toronto if you're ever in town because the tournament venue up north is not at all representative of what Toronto has to offer.

1:21:35Catherine Whitaker: So thank you for that Alison and Philip.

1:21:40Matt Roberts: That's really really beautiful Alison like Risk and Philip like Kohlschreiber.

1:21:48David Law: Very good.

1:21:51Matt Roberts: Yeah really lovely. Thank you Alison and Philip like Kohlschreiber. Folks, we are part of the Athletic Podcast Network. It's a two podcast week because it's a combined 1000 week. So that means we'll be back on Thursday with our next show. And then our post Indian Wells show will be live on YouTube on Monday at 8pm UK time. It'll also be available to watch whenever you like after going up and be available to listen to a podcast as normal. but if you'd like to join us live on YouTube, 8pm UK time is when it'll be next Monday. So mark your cards for that. Thank you for listening today and we'll speak to you again on Thursday.

1:22:51Matt Roberts: realize how expansive their party supplies were. And Michael's really is where you can go to get everything for a party, whether you're planning a kid's birthday or even an adult celebration. They've got over 4 ,500 party supplies, more than 60 different themes, and prices starting at just 99 cents. Plus, they've recently lowered prices on hundreds of items. We found adorable decorations, balloons, everything we needed to pull the party together without making a bunch of different shopping trips. Plus, I always have a good time going to Michael's. I love shopping there. I could just browse the aisles forever.

1:23:21Matt Roberts: But if you're short on time, like I always seem to be, you can also get same-day delivery or buy online and pick up at the store. They even offer free helium inflation on select balloon styles, which is such a lifesaver, and it was for our party, truly. So if you've got a birthday coming up or just a celebration, remember Michael's Everything to celebrate anything. Visit Michael's in-store or shop online now.

1:24:13David Law: See bonus points, T's and C's and sweeps rules for details and visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions.