Is Anisimova the favourite for the WTA finals?

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1:16Matt Roberts: Well, hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast, our second Tennis Podcast of this week. We are here to preview the season-ending WTA finals in Riyadh, held in Riyadh for the second straight year, the second edition of this tournament in Riyadh. We'll also have a little update on all things Paris and La Cousinade, the latest edition of La Cousinade between Artur Indeknesh and Valentin Vachero, the connoisseurs, great rivalry of the ATP tour. uh david remains holly david still trying to make that happen uh he's in croatia how are you doing

1:57David Law: david uh very well very well it is uh it said it was going to drizzle all day today which uh made me think it was this time next week um but but it turns out it hasn't drizzled it's lovely and sunny and the wta finals are on the horizon with my my fave luisa stefani and so um you know life's good.

2:20Matt Roberts: We know all about drizzle, Matt, here in sunny old London.

2:25Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, yesterday, in fact, yesterday was more than drizzle. It was just solid rain all day. But this morning is all right.

2:32Matt Roberts: It was get me to Australia weather yesterday.

2:35Catherine Whitaker: Yeah.

2:37Matt Roberts: Yep. No such issues in Riyadh. It's an indoor tournament, isn't it? That was a surprise to me last year. I was expecting it to be outdoor. But no, indoor tournament. Obviously, we know a little bit more about what to expect because it is the second edition of the tournament in Riyadh, part of Saudi season. I think you'll be seeing some Saudi season branding. No, Riyadh season. What do they call it? Maybe they do need the branding. I need the branding. What is it? It's Riyadh season isn't it?

3:13David Law: Riyadh season yeah.

3:15Matt Roberts: Is there going to be an aggravating amount of Riyadh season branding on the court for you Matt Roberts?

3:23Catherine Whitaker: Almost certainly any amount of that branding is quite aggravating and I suspect it will be it will be everywhere.

3:33Matt Roberts: The draw has been done in fact we have a first order of play as well. So we have two groups, four players in each group. We have the Serena Williams group that is populated by Igor Sviantek, Amanda Anisimova, Elena Rabakina and Madison Keyes. And then we have the Steffi Graf group, which I think is actually officially called the Stephanie Graf group. And that features Irina Sabalenka, Coco Goff, the defending champion Jessica Pagula and Jasmine Paolini. And we know that it'll be the Serena Williams group that kicks things off on Saturday. We will have Iga Svantec against Madison Keys as an opener and Amanda Anisimova against Elena Rabakina to follow.

4:22Matt Roberts: And then on Sunday, we will open with Jasmine Paolini against Irina Sabalenka and then Coco Gough against Jessica Pagula. Matt what was your initial reaction to this draw?

4:36Catherine Whitaker: Well obviously it just appeared on the internet with no fanfare at all that so that was of course my initial reaction to be angry about the way it was done but once I got past that my initial reaction was that I really like how these groups have come out, actually. I think in the Serena Williams group, you've got Igor Sviontek up against all the possible big hitters that she could have faced out of the various combinations that it could have been. All of them landed in Sviontek's group. And that, you know, traditionally over the last couple of years has been a really fascinating style of match on the WTA Tour.

5:19Catherine Whitaker: Igor Sviontek versus big hitters. she's got a lot better at playing them I think you know we've seen that with her record against Rabakina this year 4-0 she's really turned that head-to-head round in particular but still it's an interesting match-up generally and we've also got some new match-ups there because Amanda Nisimova has never played Elena Rabakina and she's never played Madison Keyes so there's some intrigue there whereas the other group I think we've got known interesting matches as well you know I don't think there's been a match up all year that has driven narrative and caused as much discussion and powered talk shows in the states as much as Sabalenka Goff and we're going to get to see that again Pagula Sabalenka has been a really good match the last few times they've whether it be in Wuhan recently or at the US Open in the last couple of years as well.

6:17Catherine Whitaker: And then Paolini-Goff has also been an interesting matchup this year. Paolini's had the better of it. Goff got a win recently. So I'm looking all the way through these groups and these matchups and there are very few duds, I think. I think it's really lined up well. So, yeah, I was pretty excited to see those draws on paper as they are.

6:41Matt Roberts: yeah I felt the same I think the only kind of individual matchup that I'm minorly bummed out about is um Gough-Pegula I don't I don't love their matches against one another I think they just they tend to be just a little bit weird um but pretty much every other matchup I'm I'm into here David I think this is a good draw from a fan perspective potentially not a great Iga Svantec draw um she she might not love how things have shaken out although I suspect she'd be pretty circumspect given, you know, top eight players in the world. There are no great draws to be had. But yeah, for fans, this is, I think this is pretty much a 10 out of 10.

7:24David Law: Yeah, and actually I think although it's probably more concerning for her in terms of her prospects of actually going further by having this draw, the intrigue and the challenge makes it pretty enticing from her perspective as well because she's you know she's had a really really good season okay it might have been a little bit unusual in terms of what she's won and how she's won things but what if what if she would have come out here and just beat them all you know that would be that would probably mean more than if it were the other way around and um so so you're right from a fan perspective I'm so excited to to just see that as a prospect maybe there's one or two matches in that group probably keys Rebecca know that I'm not sure is going to be a great match because they're just they're both trying to just destroy the ball so much and and it might lead to a lot of errors but I kind of feel like the most interesting player in the the entire competition really is Amanda Anissimova because she's new I was looking at all the other players they've all played it before and she hasn't and and throwing her into that mix just makes things fascinating um I'm curious to see how she takes to it I suspect she'll she'll take to it very well but also I like the matches from her perspective because although she's a big hitter she's also that really fluid clean hitter as well so I like watching big hitters trying to hit through her, knowing that she can time it back.

8:57David Law: And whenever you get her up against Svantec to kind of continue the narrative of what they've had all year, that's fascinating. In the other group, yeah, it is interesting how you've ended up with kind of the one big hitter and then the three more counter-punching players. That is somewhat surprising, but I'm really quite excited about this line-up generally. I think it's a great eight players for a start.

9:24Matt Roberts: Yeah, at minimum, they've all reached, I think the least credentialed player in terms of like Grand Slam CV is Jessica Begula with just the one Grand Slam final. Then you've got Paulini and Anisimova with two Grand Slam finals each. And then everybody else is a Grand Slam champion. Like this is a stellar lineup in terms of credentials and quite different in terms of depth to what we're going to get at the ATP finals in Turin, I think. I am quite enjoying seeing Lorenzo Mazzetti desperately trying to find a way to qualify for the finals for the first time, but he's in a completely different category to anybody in the WTA finals field, I think.

10:14Matt Roberts: This is A grade.

10:18Catherine Whitaker: for sure yeah for sure um i also think another really interesting dynamic going into these finals is the very different weeks that these players have had since the u.s open you know there's a few players in here who have played a lot you know um pagula's played three tournaments 13 matches including eight three setters in a row. Rubatkin has played five tournaments 13 matches Paolini played four tournaments 14 matches since the US Open. Sviontek three tournaments 10 matches but then you've got Keyes who hasn't played since the US Open is a real unknown I think coming in here in terms of form and fitness and then you've got Sabalenka and Anissimova who've just played the one tournament each as well and and are pretty rested really so I think that dynamic could play out through the groups as well the sort of players who have really not played a lot because I haven't needed to versus the players who have been pushing and are probably you know match sharp and match tight but are they fatigued and I think that's quite even in the groups in terms of in in terms of that fatigue it's sort of spread across the groups I think but that that that could be an element as well that influences how how some of these matchups go so yes there's this there's this heavyweight feel to it but there's also people coming in in slightly different forms slightly different fitness and I think that's going to be an interesting element to it and generally speaking

11:56Matt Roberts: it does feel like burnout is less of a kind of ghost at the feast with the WTA finals than it's going to be with the ATP finals. Like Pagula is maybe my one player that I think, God, I just feel like I've watched a lot of Jessica Pagula playing tennis since the US Open. Like not only the number of tournaments she's played, but the length of those matches. I just feel like she's been on my telly a lot, running around a lot. But in terms of your big hitters, a lot of them have been able to be, as you say, pretty prudent with their post-US Open schedule. You know, Anisimova was able to win Beijing and then sit out on the sidelines for a bit.

12:41Matt Roberts: Shontek and Sabalenka have picked and chosen since then. And OK, you've got Rabatkinner, who's had a slightly more Muzetti-esque chasing arc. But generally speaking, I have less of a feeling of hunger games about these WTA finals than I fear I'm going to have with Turin. I don't know how you feel about that, David.

13:08David Law: Yeah, I probably agree. And Pegula is, generally speaking, I think the player who just feels durable. She feels like she can keep coming out and delivering performances pretty much regardless. She may not have the ceiling of some, but what a battler she is and what a consistent player. I mean, I do remember it was, I think, a couple of years ago when she very clearly hit the wall at this event and just lost everything, singles and doubles. She was playing doubles with Coco Gauff, I think, as well, and that just couldn't play. And maybe the fact that she's playing... When it was in, was that Fort Worth?

13:45Matt Roberts: Was that the Fort Worth year?

13:48David Law: Might well be. Certainly two or three years ago.

13:50Matt Roberts: Which was the year before Cancun. It's Cancun that lives rent-free in my head.

13:56David Law: Yeah, that's the one with the hurricane that was blowing through us at the time. Yes. What felt like it anyway. Yeah. And just basically.

14:05Matt Roberts: Court furniture flying around.

14:08David Law: Uninhabitable tennis courts, basically. Not ideal. But, you know, a few years have passed since then, and she's not playing the same level of doubles now, the same amount of doubles. Maybe that's a factor in being able to do this a little more throughout a full season. So, yeah, I do think, I mean, look, there are probably, there are fewer tournaments really back-to-back banked into this event in quite the same way. Yes, there are tournaments going on in Tokyo, and other places but it it's it's it's almost as though there's a three-week run and then they get a better time off and then they come into it and it's earlier in the season you know you've got another couple of weeks for for the ATP finals or another week at least and and you've got you've got a real race going on and you've got them all banked up including a Masters 1000 right at the end of it as well and Chiang Kai you know it's it's a heck of a lot in the men's side of things

15:08Catherine Whitaker: and it's the European indoor swing that the ATP has that the WTA doesn't you know like the men have been to Asia as well they've played Beijing and Tokyo and Shanghai you know in in kind of the same weeks that the women have been in Asia but then the men have these really great prestigious events you know your bars or Vienna Paris they're good events but they do elongate the season and And they do mean that that race continues right up to the final day before the ATP finals start. Whereas there's just a bit more runway with the WTA finals after the Asian Swing, because they don't have that history of those prestigious indoor events at this time of the year that the men have.

15:54Catherine Whitaker: And, you know, the men want to play those events. And I get that. They're really good events. They're really well attended. is they they maybe feel a bit bigger than they are even even even at this time of the season but it does lead I think to a lot of burnout and I think that ATP finals have suffered because of that in in the last few years you know we've had several ATP finals where there have been a lot of one-sided matches um whereas you know I am coming into this WTA finals pretty pretty pumped about a lot of these players and and the form I'm expecting them to be in considering they've had just a couple of weeks off.

16:33Matt Roberts: Yeah, absolutely. I feel the same. I mean, all discomfort about Saudi Arabia being the host nation remains. We talked about that at length in our most recent podcast episode with Charlie Eccleshare. And taking a different angle on that, my anxiety about crowds and atmosphere remains in the amount of appetite there is to watch women's tennis in Saudi Arabia. Last year, I think the best crowds were for Zhang Chinwen's matches, as I recall, because of the Chinese population in Saudi Arabia. Well, there's no Zhang Chinwen this year. So what are crowds going to be like? Will this event get anywhere near the atmosphere and the vibe that it deserves?

17:27Matt Roberts: I hope so, but I do have anxiety about it on that front. You know, Paris that we've been watching this week, the men's 1000 event, is so elevated by the vibe and the energy of the crowd, of that French crowd. You know, it is too much. Like, they shouldn't be playing a Masters 1000 event right now. Like, everyone is absolutely on their last legs. It does feel like the Hunger Games. and yet you look at that French crowd and the Roland Garros energy they're bringing to it all and it just, I don't know, it gets me going. It's pretty irresistible and you need that at this stage of the season when everyone's running on fumes.

18:15Matt Roberts: So yeah, proof will be in the pudding but I have that anxiety about the tournament just as I did last year. some predictions I think feels like the order of the day the Serena Williams group do we do we like how do they just pluck legendary names out of a hat like how have we landed on Serena and Stephanie here

18:41Catherine Whitaker: it feels like Serena and Steffi like I know they played I know they did play against each other but they're from different eras they're not a couplet no no I feel like they could have gone Steffi Serena Venus Conchita Martinez or Aranxious Sanctis Vicario or Monica Seles Seles Yeah, it feels a bit weird that we've got these two paired together But I do like them being the names of the group I prefer that to just, you know, the white and green group or something I think it's quite fun to have the players But yeah, a bit of an odd couplet to choose

19:20Matt Roberts: who is going to win the Serena Williams group and who else is going to qualify from the group so who are going to be the top two finishes in Serena Williams let's call it the Serena Williams group

19:37David Law: I think that I would go with Inissimova to top the group and And to me, it's between Rebecca and Esfjante. I'm going to go for Esfjante because I do think, although Rebecca has got the momentum, I do think at some point, surely she's going to run out, I guess. She's played so much recently. So I think I'm going to go for those two in that order, Anissimova and then Esfjante.

20:11Matt Roberts: So do you think Anissimova is beating Esfjante, David?

20:14David Law: Yeah. I think she's going 3-0.

20:20Matt Roberts: You got a little nod of approval from Matt Roberts there during that answer. Yeah, he's beaming. Love it. Love it. Looks like a proud parent.

20:30Catherine Whitaker: She does feel like one of the more reliable players. I expect Anissimov to play well now. Do you know what I mean? There was definitely a time in her career where you really didn't know what you were going to get. But we've just had months and months of real consistency. and yeah she is pretty fresh I think coming in I know she's been in Riyadh like a while I think she's had quite a long time to get used to the conditions so yeah no surprise at all that I will I will agree with David there I think the Rabatkaner match-up is interesting because as I said they've never played before we've got you know we get that match straight away on Saturday that feels pretty pivotal because I do expect Keyes to be the weak link in this group just because of her lack of matches.

21:16Matt Roberts: Is she fully fit, Madison Keyes? She's certainly a question mark on the fitness front.

21:21Catherine Whitaker: So I think Anissimova-Rabakina right out the gate is big in terms of who comes through this group. But match-up-wise, just thinking about it, one of Anissimova's great strengths is her return of serve, the way she can attack that shot ordinarily. But how does that match up against, when it's firing, the best serve on the WTA Tour, I would say, in Elena Rabakina. Can Anisimova be as effective on the return? I think will be a key element to that match. I do back Anisimova and I do ultimately back Shviontek as well. She is, I was looking at all the various head-to-heads between everyone in the field.

22:02Catherine Whitaker: She's the only one in the field who doesn't have a losing head-to-head against anyone here, Igor Shviontek, which is pretty impressive. You know, this is the other best players in the world and at worst she's even against everyone or she's got a winning record. And I think we can look at her and think maybe she's a bit vulnerable against these big hitters because she has been at times and she's talked about the fatigue she's feeling. But I do think she'll have enough to get through this group considering how she's turned the head-to-head round against Robackina this year. In fact, the only set she's lost against Robackina this year was at Roland Garros, oddly.

22:39Catherine Whitaker: She's won their hard-court match. she's in straight sets so yes I will I will go with David and go Anisimova and Shiontek to get

22:48Matt Roberts: out of that group yeah boring I think I will as well and I and I share your thoughts about like the this this new normal of Anisimova just feeling like a reliable top four player like that is just who she is now um it's so cool um but yeah it is a it is a new normal that i'm i'm still adjusting to uh stephanie graf who is going to come through stephanie graf we have sabalenka goth pegula and paulini how's this going to shake down matt very tricky this one i think

23:31Catherine Whitaker: um paulini i'm gonna you know i'm gonna commit the cardinal sin and probably underestimate jasmine paulini i i'm a bit concerned that she's also playing the doubles and i think she is the most running on fumes maybe out of anyone um you know certainly her and robakina because they've just had to make that push i just think it's a lot um and i think i think she can play good matches you know I don't think she's going to get absolutely hit off the court she's she's shown that she belongs but she is the one that I'm looking at and thinking it's going to be tougher to get through this group um so obviously my apologies in advance for underestimating Jasmine Paolini when we do our I'm fully prepared to lead the next podcast with an apology to Jasmine in Paolini after what I've just said.

24:29Catherine Whitaker: Maybe I'm leaning towards Sabalenka and Pagula here.

24:37Catherine Whitaker: Sabalenka, you know, speaks for itself, really. I think most people would probably be backing Sabalenka to come through. I know Goff just beat Pagula in the final in Wuhan, but I did think Pagula was, you know, she almost had nothing left. I think the rest will have done her good in the last couple of weeks. And she just feels a bit more reliable with her game right now. But Coco Goff has shown that she can cause Sabalenka problems. She can come through matches even when she's not at her best. I just think it's a lot for Coco Goff, for someone who is struggling with her game a little bit at the moment, to be up against top players straight away.

25:19Catherine Whitaker: You know, there's no like playing yourself in, getting used to it. I'm leaning Pagula for that reason, but don't feel strongly. But yeah, Sabalenka and Pagula would be my prediction on the eve of the tournament. David.

25:38David Law: I am going to go for Sabalenka and Goff. Goff has got the track record at this event. and I think that she is helped by the fact that to some degree she isn't results-oriented in quite the same way at the end of the season as she is earlier on in the season when it's the grand slam. She said that outright at the US Open, that the rest of the year to me is about improving and I think that that clears her head. I think she's a brilliant competitor when she does need to win. I mean, she always wants to win, but when there's not that pressure, that absolute, if I don't get the final point, then it's all worthless.

26:23David Law: When you relieve that from her, I think that she probably becomes more dangerous. Very difficult to do, of course. You know, players often talk in other sports, if I could only play how I practice, if I could only relax, not grip the racket so tightly or the club so tightly. And I think that maybe that's what happens to Goff at the end of the season. So I'm not entirely sure. I would probably go Sabalenka first and Goff second, but it could easily be the other way around. But I would go for those two.

26:50Catherine Whitaker: And I also think the draw is decent for Goff in that she's not got players who are going to totally just hit her off the court if she's having a bad day. I know she couldn't have faced Anissim over in the groups because they're in the same pot, being the third and fourth ranked players. But, you know, getting Pagula rather than Rabakina, I think is maybe helpful. And getting Sabalenka rather than Sviantek, I think is maybe helpful, considering that Sviantek, when she's at her best, has proven to be a match-up problem for Goff in a way that Sabalenka never has been. So, yeah, that's maybe on her side too.

27:31Catherine Whitaker: It's tough to call. It's great. I love that I'm so unsure.

27:38Matt Roberts: I keep thinking about those US Open quotes from Goff as well, where she was kind of like, yeah, I won the WTA finals last year kind of by accident because I didn't care that much. yeah I mean gosh I mean Koko Goff is sort of in the inexplicable category for me like she definitely could win the thing or she could crash and burn with 25 double faults in every match like I really don't know is it will this be the first time we've seen Goff Sabalenka since the French Open final I think it is right yeah that's really cool yeah we had them

28:22Catherine Whitaker: practicing together didn't we on was it Court 1 or Centre? with Pam immediately after when they were

28:30Matt Roberts: yeah and they were all very friendly there was a TikTok

28:33Catherine Whitaker: very quick to play it down yeah yeah yeah but put them in a match scenario again

28:40Matt Roberts: yeah yeah there's no TikTok here I mean I'm sure there will be but okay right I'm into it Who's going to win the...

28:50Catherine Whitaker: Well, are you leaning Goff, Catherine, over Pergoula in that group?

28:54Matt Roberts: I've just said she's inexplicable, which is my way of saying I'm getting myself off the hook of making Goff predictions. I feel like Jessica Pergoula is my Jasmine Paolini, my I always underestimate her.

29:14Matt Roberts: But then... So you're picking Paolini to come through. No, the person I'm not picking to come through is Paolini. I think she must be on fumes.

29:25Catherine Whitaker: People are listening to this and laughing at us right now. Here they go again.

29:31Matt Roberts: She's doing singles and doubles. I'm going to pick her to win the doubles, Matt. There you go. That's having my cake and eating it, isn't it? Cop out.

29:40Matt Roberts: I am backing Saurit Rani. I'm going to go Savalenka and Pagula OK I think Gough struggles with the Pagula matchup more than Pagula does I think it's weirder for Gough somehow I think it's got a bit less weird though neither of them struggle with it as much as I do I just don't I don't like it I don't like those matches but yeah okay I'm going to go for Sabalenka and Pagula and I'm going to underestimate Jasmin Paolini and defending champion Coco Goff there we go who's going to win the whole title?

30:27Catherine Whitaker: Anissa Mova

30:30Matt Roberts: do you actually think that?

30:31Catherine Whitaker: I do I actually do

30:33Matt Roberts: I think I do too you know oh my god yeah I know who am I? I love that she, I think it was in Beijing, not when she won the title, or maybe it was when she won the title, it was whatever match that confirmed her qualification for Riyadh, for the WTA finals. And she said in her on-court interview, this is huge for me, that was my goal at the start of this season.

31:05Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, she said it was the only goal she achieved.

31:08Matt Roberts: Yeah, yeah. What were the others?

31:16Matt Roberts: It's probably unfair, but that really surprised me because I didn't have anything like these aspirations for her at the start of this season. And it wasn't until the spring that she brought on Shadi and the new fitness team and everything. And I think it's kind of that is the massive turning point for Amanda Elisamova when I would have assumed that kind of her goals and aspirations changed around as well. But it was obviously far, far, far, far earlier than that. And I yeah, I love that she was kind of putting that out there in the universe right at the start of this this season. And yeah, I think she's going to win it.

32:01Catherine Whitaker: By the way, interesting, if she does play Pugula, for example, in the semis or final, you know, obviously they can't play in the group. She's never beaten Pugula. She's got an 0-3 record against Pugula as Anisimova. So that's something to watch out for. Has David got a rational pick for the title? No. So who are you picking?

32:28David Law: Anisimova. Oh, OK. Are you really? Of course. Oh, God. You're asking me to be the rational one. No one's picking Shontek or Sabalenka. No, I thought, I'm the out there guy, and you've gone to me for sensible stuff. Ridiculous.

32:49Matt Roberts: Okay.

32:50Catherine Whitaker: So we're all picking in a Samoa. Great.

32:53David Law: Imagine how cool we'll look if we get it right.

32:58Matt Roberts: yeah it's quite a lot of um it's quite a lot of eggs in one basket isn't it's quite a lot of credibility eggs in one in one basket but okay we are where we are uh join us in part two and we will uh look at paris we'll look at the doubles group uh we'll have a little look at what yannick Sinner has been saying this week about some big picture tennis stuff in the Guardian newspaper. Join us in part two for that.

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35:25Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast. A quick look at the doubles groups in Riyadh at the WTA finals. Again, don't necessarily think of Martina Navratilova and Liesl Huber as a couplet, but here we are.

35:41Catherine Whitaker: I was so ready to go on a rant about why it wasn't the Pam Shriver group, if we've got the Martina Navratilova group. However, I did just go back and check, and we have had a Pam Shriver group in 2022. Who was she paired with? Any guesses who she was paired with? It's a tough one to get. Rosie Casals is the answer. Fun. I think they put fun together. Rosie and Pam is a good time

36:14Matt Roberts: yeah they're sort of personality matches yeah okay in the Martina Novratilova group we have Sara Rani and Jasmine Paolini Veronica Kudomatov and Elisa Mertens Suey Shea and Yelena Ostopenko and Asia Mohamed and Demi Schur in the Liesel Huber group we have Katarina Siniagov and Taylor Townsend Gabby Dabrowski and Erin Routliff Mira Androva and Diana Schneider and Tamir Babos and Luisa Stefani. David, according to an early morning WhatsApp we received this morning, is very pumped about the Liesl Huber group. Explain yourself, David.

36:52David Law: I think it's amazing. It's more or less perfection. I mean, I suppose I'd like to have Arani and Paolini in there as well. But actually, the whole thing's great because Ostopenko and Shea are in the other group too. But I mean, look, my favourite player is Luisa Stefani, right, in doubles. I think she's absolutely wonderful. And she's playing with Tamir Babos. She's such a dynamic player. Stefani, a Jedi-like, as I always like to think of these players who can just read shots and just end up there where they're supposed to be. And the fact that she's in a group with Andreeva and Schneider, that's cool.

37:28David Law: Isn't Dubrovsky your favourite, Matt? Yes. I think.

37:33Catherine Whitaker: She's my water player. And I think that's... I thought so. I think that's aged really well.

37:39David Law: Well, yes, so is Luisa Stefani. Thank you very much. And Katarina Sinjakova and Taylor Townsend is exceptional fun. I mean, they're brilliant doubles players. So that's an amazing group. Can't wait for it.

37:56Matt Roberts: Holly David is a big Liesl Huber guy. Who knew? Okay. That's it for the WTA finals in Riyadh. we will of course be back with uh extra pods to cover that event so our next pod is

38:14Catherine Whitaker: when i think it's planned for a group stage wrap-up uh so i think i think that's like friday next week for the like focusing on wta finals but we'll also have a pod a regular pod on monday to talk mostly about paris but we'll we'll discuss the first few days of the wta finals and what

38:34Matt Roberts: we've seen very good thank you matt um matt likes matt likes order and structure as we established last night we're having an existential chat about draws while waiting for the the carabao cup quarterfinal draw which did not go as hoped yeah katherine came up with the idea that tennis should

38:55Catherine Whitaker: do a draw after every round in the way that football does which is what which is what football

39:00Matt Roberts: does.

39:01Catherine Whitaker: Yeah.

39:02Matt Roberts: So we were waiting for the quarter final draw of the caribou. You know, they redraw everyone. Now I'm not suggesting tennis should adopt this across the board, but like could we not try it? I don't know. Wouldn't that be fun? I love it. Yeah?

39:18David Law: Yeah. It's a bit like my let's not have seeds draw. Yeah.

39:23Matt Roberts: Yeah, there would be some things to iron out about seeds and whether you have seeds, whether you reseed after every round. Look, I'm prepared to workshop that with whoever whichever tournament director wants to come with me on this um but

39:36Catherine Whitaker: like let's give it a go yeah it'd be fun and then I said well I initially said it would be great fun because I love draws I want as many draws as as possible but then I love draws last night well I did really I didn't like the outcome of the draw but I liked I liked the feeling of of what of trying to find out who full of them are going to play um but then i realized i like i do like the initial buzz of what's going to happen but then what i really like is the structure that a drawer gives my life and i i know what the next week or couple of weeks are roughly going to look like i'm a i'm a planner i like to have my days lined up i know what i'm doing a week from today all that kind of thing and i think a draw gives me that organization organization and structure in my life.

40:26Catherine Whitaker: I had a real moment of realising what it is I like about draws last time.

40:31Matt Roberts: But the thing is, you would still have that structure. You'd still know a week from Wednesday is quarterfinals day. I know, but I wouldn't be able to project.

40:42Catherine Whitaker: I like the projection.

40:45Matt Roberts: Okay, too much chaos for Matt in my system. I mean, it might be too much chaos for me and for the wider public as well. But until we try, we don't know.

40:56Catherine Whitaker: There's definitely too much chaos for tennis. Tennis can't even do one draw properly for tournaments, let alone five, six.

41:03David Law: It can do it, Matt. It just needs the right people in charge.

41:07Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, you're right.

41:08Matt Roberts: Right, yeah. Someone come with me on this. My DMs are open.

41:12David Law: The right people are not in charge of enough tournaments. Catherine's the ideas person on this. Catherine's come up with the idea. We need Wimbledon's organisers. I think you'll find the Carabao Cup came up with the idea. Well, you're the one who's adapted it to tennis. You get Jamie Redknapp involved.

41:28Matt Roberts: No, we're all right. Yes, thank you very much, David. Jamie Redknapp was responsible for... Was it him that picked ball number three out of the bag? Well, we were the last team left. With the words, oof, tough draw for Fulham. Yeah.

41:49Matt Roberts: OK I've come round

41:50David Law: I think we're going through Tough draw for Newcastle I think Yes David

41:57Matt Roberts: Turning our attention to Paris and its new venue the Accor Arena I have to say

42:05Catherine Whitaker: No it's La Défense Arena

42:07Matt Roberts: Oh La Défense Arena

42:09Catherine Whitaker: Accor is the old one Is it? I thought that was Bercy Yeah but it's the Accor

42:15Matt Roberts: hotel or something that it was right okay a core hotel don't want this one okay la défense arena um uh the new venue for paris i have to say visually it's it's remarkably similar isn't it in terms of on the tv like they've kept the look and look and feel very consistent from from how it used to look in in Bear Sea we have had we've had a big shock uh it will not be a Sinner Alcaraz final Carlos Alcaraz's streak of reaching nine consecutive tour finals has been snapped by Cameron Norrie 4-6 6-3 6-4 in Alcaraz's uh opener uh more than 50 unforced errors from Carlos Alcaraz and it means that should Yannick Sinner win Paris, he will return to world number one.

43:09Matt Roberts: But just for a week before inevitably handing it back to Carlos Alcaraz ahead of the ATP finals because his 1 ,500 points from winning the ATP finals last year will drop off the computer. do we read anything into this loss from Alcaraz other than it's October, it's indoors, it's the end of the season it's in the scheme of things let's face it fairly meaningless for Carlos Alcaraz I don't want to diminish this achievement for Cameron Norrie, he's beaten a world number one, that is massive but I think this is one of those, tell me if you disagree, that means an awful lot more on one end of the court than it does on the other.

44:04Matt Roberts: Matt, what do you think?

44:06Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I mean, our trade is to have takes, right, about matches and I think sometimes that can maybe lead us to read into something that isn't there and I'm not going to do that. I really don't think this matters. You know, Carlos Alquez has had an incredible season, the best of his career, remarkable consistency, one match where he didn't really have the feel against an opponent who has been a little bit tricky for him in the past, has beaten him before Cameron Norris, an awkward opponent for him, I think. Yeah, I'm not going to sound the alarm bells here at all. I think it was just one of those days.

44:51Catherine Whitaker: and he's shown this season that those days are happening a lot less and he moves on to Turin and tries to really play well there for the first time. So yeah, I think he said there are some matches you learn from and some you forget about and this is one of the ones you forget about and that's pretty much where I am at with it. Although, as you said, nice moment for Cameron Norrie. big win for him

45:25yeah

45:25Matt Roberts: it's tough isn't it that part of me feels relief like that he's kind of that he's going to sort of save some canister you know which isn't how I want to be feeling when watching tennis matches but who needs Sineraal Kras anyway when you've got Rinderknesh Rindekanesh Vachero. Am I joking? I don't know. I friggin loved Rindekanesh Vachero yesterday. In the words of the bloke with the incredible sign in the crowds, vive la cuisinade. Live long the cousins. Yeah, I'm so into these two, David. And it was this was an even the story's always been great. But this was a great match to boot.

46:19David Law: Quite an achievement for them as cousins to produce something so watchable. Because on paper, it's your worst nightmare, Catherine, as a match-up. It's two people who love one another and want the best for one another. Surely that's not going to lead to an intoxicating mix of competition and dramatic scenes. And yet it does. and and and it's it's i mean look they they make absolutely no secret of the fact that they think the world of one another and yet they're they're trying to absolutely take each other down with every shot it's every shot is hit with intent it's not all laughs and giggles all the time throughout the match but it's nice afterwards and and i don't feel like either one of them is inhibited by being the other's cousin they're a great watch they're a great watch and and And the Vashiro story just generally, I mean, look, I've loved Rinderknecht this year, but Vashiro is just such a bonus at the end of the year because he's already proving it's not a one-off.

47:24David Law: And, I mean, look, I hope it carries on to the new year because he's a guy I want to see more of. I want to see him on different – well, I want to see him outdoors. I want to see what it looks like to watch him sort of, you know, not under lights. it's just really fascinating to see whether this is just a hot streak of a few weeks or not but I kind of feel like it's not.

47:48Matt Roberts: Well the run continues he has just beaten Cameron Norrie so we will be seeing more of Valentin Vachero this week. Genuine question Matt is he the second favourite for this title behind Yannick Sinner?

48:05Catherine Whitaker: very good question my instinct was to laugh at it but then i realized he might be i mean he's on the other he's on the other side of the drawer isn't he uh to sinner uh i think i'd probably go fritz ahead of bacchero i think fritz is still there I think we have to give Fritz his due. But then it might be Vachero.

48:34Matt Roberts: What about Valentin's due?

48:37Catherine Whitaker: Well, I think even considering that question, he's giving him his due. He's giving him his due.

48:42Matt Roberts: OK, fair enough. Yeah. He's got Félix Auger-Aliassime or Daniel Altmaier next. It does Auger-Aliassime. Altmaier took out Kasper Rude, ending his faint hopes of qualifying for the ATP finals. Lorenzo Mazzetti, we watched him lose to Lorenzo Sonnego last night. Matt, poor old Lorenzo Mazzetti is probably going to have to drag himself to Mets to try and qualify for Turin. Well, not necessarily.

49:18Catherine Whitaker: I mean, he's still in the driving seat. what he does need is Orge Aliasim to lose because we're now in a situation where if Orge Aliasim reaches the final here, he will pass Mazzetti in that eighth spot. So he definitely needs Orge Aliasim to lose. And that's been close to happening in two straight matches. He's had to dig very deep, has Felix, against Comissagne and against Muller. it feels a little bit like he's hanging on as well Augiali Asim, he's a bit there for the taking but he's getting through these matches and that is making Mazzetti nervous so there's definitely quite a lot of play there Medvedev is still in with a big outside chance as well I think he would need to win the title and then also potentially do something in a Mets or an Athens but he's in the mix as well but he is in Sinner's section, isn't he?

50:20Catherine Whitaker: Medvedev. So he would probably have to get past Sinner to even make the final in Paris. It's going to be tough for him. So basically I think Mazzetti, who should have won that match in straight sets against Sonnego last night, he had break points deep in that second set to potentially put himself in a winning position. When he didn't take them, he absolutely fell to pieces, had absolutely nothing to give in that third set and is now just in a situation where I think he'd be absolutely best off not playing Mets. I think the only good outcome now for Mazzetti is hoping that everyone else around him loses and he gets in that way.

50:57Catherine Whitaker: Because, yeah, he's said it's a nightmare and now he's feeling it physically as well. Like, poor Mazzetti. But it is quite compelling to see whether Orgelio's team can keep his run going and really pile on the pressure. Alexander Bublik seems to be in with a totally outside shot of qualifying,

51:20Matt Roberts: certainly of being an alternate, which I think is a carrot in itself. He beat Quarantan Moutet yesterday, did some aggro on the camera, told him to, he did some sort of have a safe flight home energy, didn't he? Which is, you know, all pretty par for the course.

51:40Catherine Whitaker: yes because I think Moutet had said something about wanting to send him home and then public one and wrote on your way home on the camera or something

51:51Matt Roberts: yes and lent into it further with his on-court interview didn't he said he only lives in Paris so it's a short taxi ride for him

51:59Catherine Whitaker: and then Moutet said I actually live in Dubai

52:05Matt Roberts: oh that's the equivalent of I'm still in the doubles You live in the doubles. Yeah. I live in Dubai. Alejandro Davidovic Fikina has a chance of being an alternate in Turin. My understanding is that Daniel Medvedev is not interested in being an alternate. He would give up the alternate spot in Turin were he to qualify there in an alternate spot. So Davidovic Fikina has something to chase. he takes on Alexander Zverev later on tonight. I got involved in some aggro with the French crowd last night, Matt, did Davidovich for Keel. Did you watch this, David?

52:50David Law: Can you explain the celebration to me? He was playing Arta Cazzo, and I saw the pictures of him blowing kisses to the crowd in a very dramatic manner, and I thought, oh, yes, this is perfect.

53:05Catherine Whitaker: he also hit them with the Steph Curry go to sleep celebration a couple of times yeah I don't think of David Rich Fakina as that guy I think the French crowd can do that to anyone it's what we love about it you know like remember Taylor Fritz turned into that guy you know that's where the Rindekanesh stuff was born wasn't it on Suzanne Longlen at Roland Garros yeah great I really enjoyed it. It was one of those where we had the option of, it was Sinner-Bergs, wasn't it, on the main court, and we watched Sinner go up a break, and then I thought, I think I know how this match is going. Let's get on to court one, which used to be tiny in Bear Seat.

53:50Catherine Whitaker: It used to be a tiny court, I don't know, 500 people maybe. Now you've still got the low camera angle on the TV. It's a good watch court one, but there's also a massive stand at the side. so it's really enhanced I would say in terms of atmosphere you get you get the intimate feeling watching it on the telly but you also get massive atmosphere because there's a lot of people watching um and yeah it was a good time Kazo against Davidovich Vakina and uh yeah very interested by Davidovich Vakina Zverev later today that that that feels like one where Davidovich Fakina's probably going to have a shot right like he's it's a question of whether he can it's will he shit himself a little bit I think

54:35Matt Roberts: yeah it's it's the eternal Davidovich Fakina question okay that's it for part two important stuff to come in part three though Yannick Sinner has had some things to say this week and he said them to the Guardian we'll cover that in part three AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most.

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56:03Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of today's tennis podcast where we need to talk about Yannick Sinner and some things that he has taken it upon himself to say this week. He's stuck his head above the parapet. He's gone to The Guardian, the British newspaper, an exclusive interview by Matt Hughes there. I'll read you some important sections from the write-up. Yannick Sinner has criticised the Grand Slam tournaments for failing to engage with repeated requests from the world's top stars to discuss prize money and welfare benefits for lower-ranked players. The Guardian has learned that detailed proposals from the world's top 10 male and female players over alterations to prize money were rejected by the Grand Slam tournaments in August, while their request for a meeting to discuss their concerns at the US Open was also turned down.

57:03Matt Roberts: Grand Slam tournaments are understood to have told the players that they cannot hold substantive talks until a separate legal case brought by the Professional Tennis Players Association, the PTPA, has been resolved. They also referenced ongoing negotiations over the tennis calendar and plans for a so-called premium tour. Sinner expressed frustration at the refusal of Grand Slam tournaments to discuss welfare benefits in particular, as well as repeating the players' call for greater prize money. We had good conversations with the Grand Slams at Roland Garros and Wimbledon, he said. So it was disappointing when they said they cannot act on our proposals until other issues are resolved.

57:47Matt Roberts: Calendar and scheduling are important topics, But there is nothing stopping the slams from addressing player welfare benefits like pensions and health care right now. The Grand Slams are the biggest events and generate most of the revenue in tennis. So we're asking for a fair contribution to support all players and for prize money that better reflects what these tournaments can earn. We want to work together with the slams to find solutions that are good for everyone in tennis. The players argue that the ratio of prize money to overall tournament income is too low at about 12 to 15 percent across the four Grand Slam tournaments compared to 22 percent on the ATP and WTA tours.

58:29Matt Roberts: At Wimbledon last year, the total prize pot of 50 million represented 12.3 percent of the championship's 406.5 million pound total revenue. David what Yannick Sinner is saying here and calling for here is nothing new a lot of players Novak Djokovic the most prominent of them has been talking about this and calling for this for a long time so that kind of position and line of thinking is not necessarily a surprise or a shock But was it a surprise or a shock to you that Yannick Sinner has chosen to put his head above the parapet like this?

59:16David Law: I think in a vacuum it would be because he is not somebody I associate with looking for additional outside distractions. Who has a lot on his plate already trying to be the best player in the world in the men's tennis and is doing a pretty good job of it. but when you consider in in the context of the fact that there have been these two letters sent to the Grand Slams by the top 10 players in both men's and women's tennis organized and this is key to me organized via Larry Scott who used to be the the CEO of the WTA who was the man who told us, who did an interview with us for the Journey to Equal Prize Money show that we did for Friends of the Tennis podcast in which he explained how he kind of helped in conjunction with Billie Jean King and then later Venus Williams to orchestrate and pressurize publicly in order to manage to get what they wanted.

1:00:25David Law: And they did get equal prize money at all the Grand Slams. you know they'd already had it at the US Open they got Wimbledon to to to to go along eventually took years but he was the the choreographer of all of that and the fact that the the the top 10 players as as groups have hired him to run the show for them or to to to run their campaign effectively tells me that that you've got somebody in charge who really knows what they're doing Now, I don't know exactly what's happened here, but I wouldn't mind a bet that he has told the players, if you want to get what you want, you better be outspoken about it.

1:01:06David Law: He's attended meetings with Yannick Sinner and with other top players in order to try to get movement here. It seems to all be confused and held up by the fact that there's the PTPA's ongoing suit as well, which is a separate organization, which is also purporting to represent players. And then you've got the Tours themselves, the ATP and the WTA. So the whole thing is very difficult to get a clear idea of who's doing what and what's going to happen. But to me, it's not that surprising that Yannick Sinner, and I suspect we'll hear from other players, other top players in the future, who are going to pressurise and try to get their word out there.

1:01:58Matt Roberts: Do you think Matt that seeing this was manna from heaven for the ATP and Andrea Gaudenzi just as they're getting a load of flack for the schedule and players dropping like flies and the optically untimely announcement of the 10th Masters event in Saudi Arabia Yannick Sinner, the world number two, sticks his head out and goes, yeah, that stuff does matter. But actually, look over here is this other bigger problem. Look at the Grand Slams. They're more to blame. Let's focus on that problem right now.

1:02:40Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I suppose so. And I think it, A, speaks to the array of issues that the players have, you know whether it be in terms of uh the amount of prize money that they're getting from the slams or the scheduling of the atp you know there's like there's two very big issues there that are prominent issues but it also speaks to the lack of united player approach to actually solving these issues you know david's laid it out really well there on the one hand you've got these groups of top 10 players and and they're targeting the one thing you've got the ptpa with that very broad lawsuit that they put forward and i i just i always think this would be more effective you know done properly together you know targeting targeting one thing at a time i suppose and and all on the united front and we just don't have that obviously the ptpa has tried um but by no means has achieved that and been that so you do end up with this slightly scattergun approach and priority for one person is not a priority for another but I think they're all good points that Yannick Sinner makes I wouldn't disagree at all with what he's saying there and it must be frustrating if they've had promising conversations and then it's been held up by well what the slams are saying the PTPA, you know, and Sinner's thinking, surely we should all be on the same page here, but they're not.

1:04:20Catherine Whitaker: And that's why it's quite stagnant, I think.

1:04:25Matt Roberts: Yeah, there's a great irony of, you know, the PTPA's stated aim is to unite the players in their goals and their approach, but actually, sort of, as much as that might be their intention, the real life impact seems to be one of further fragmentation. Now they would say that that's not our fault. Like if everybody gets on board with us then we can be united. But in real terms what we're actually seeing happening is just total disunity. even if everybody's aims are aligned like just going about those aims in a disunited way seems to be having quite a negative impact but yeah like the number of organisations involved in just this one element of this story like I can understand if listeners just sort of glaze over when we start talking about this stuff because like god it's so overwhelming isn't it It's a pretty crazy state of affairs.

1:05:39Matt Roberts: But that is tennis. It's the sport we all know and love and choose to talk about for a living. And we wouldn't have it any other way. It's going to be a fun weekend of tennis. Climax in Paris. WTA finals getting underway. David on holiday. What more could we all want? Hello to our mascots, Phoebe, Maisie and Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. Shall we have some shout outs, Matt?

1:06:09Catherine Whitaker: Yes, we have Sharon from Boston, who says that she's been a listener since before Matt was an intern.

1:06:20Matt Roberts: Wow.

1:06:22Catherine Whitaker: The bad old days. like like samantha murray sharon wow that's good sharon murray murray sharon sharon murray

1:06:34David Law: that's very good what about uh sharon fishman uh a canadian former tennis player who got to a career high ranking of 77 in the world in that would be great if it weren't you've got to style out better the fact that you've googled it david how how can you possibly accuse me of that i can see that you're reading well yes that is happening she is now 35 34 years of age and and actually i did remember her name but i completely spelt it wrong um and uh and then it turned out she was no longer the player that i thought she was but she is a player

1:07:18Matt Roberts: Sharon I think Sharon's a very underrepresented name in our shout out so I'm pleased to have a Sharon thank you Sharon

1:07:26Catherine Whitaker: we've also got Pooja from Sunnyvale California

1:07:33Matt Roberts: Pooja that is so nearly Sunnydale California the fictional setting of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and I'm sure Pooja has heard that before Pooja has in fact referenced that in her shout out.

1:07:51Matt Roberts: Go on then, hit me with it.

1:07:53Catherine Whitaker: Pooja says no connection to Sunnydale in Butty. That was in Southern California. This is in Northern California, close to San Francisco. Almost ideal tennis playing weather. I wonder why we don't have any tournaments here in the San Francisco Bay area with beautiful tennis weather and dedicated fans. So she's making a come and get me plea in her shout out. I like it.

1:08:21Matt Roberts: There used to be one at Stanford University, didn't there, which is in the Bay area, but no longer. I'm sorry, Pooja, if I've offended you with my immediate Buffy the Vampire Slayer reference, But I'm grateful to you for enabling me to think about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is iconic TV.

1:08:43Catherine Whitaker: And Pooja has a 13-year-old rescue shih tzu poodle called Michi. A sheep who? Michi, who perks up every time she hears Billie Jean in the background.

1:08:56Matt Roberts: Oh, Michi. Hello. That's great.

1:09:02Catherine Whitaker: All good stuff, Pooja. Thank you. And finally, we have Natalie from New York. Hello, Natalie. Hi, Natalie. Natalie says, I was able to fulfil a lifetime dream by attending Wimbledon for the first time this year. And I saw Carlos Alcaraz versus Fabio Fanini. Remember that match?

1:09:25David Law: Oh, my God. What a dog's dinner that was. Wow. Crikey. Like Natalie Deshi.

1:09:32Matt Roberts: Was that five sets or four?

1:09:36David Law: It was too many sets.

1:09:38Matt Roberts: It was too many sets. It was not very good, wasn't it? I think it was five, you know. Yeah, I've got a feeling it was as well.

1:09:47Catherine Whitaker: I think there was a moment when I was wondering whether, you know, Fanini was going to join Berrettini as, you know, the people, you know, the Italians to have won a fifth set against Carlos Alcaraz. I think I remember having that thought. Wow.

1:10:08Matt Roberts: Natalie Tozia, coach of Victoria Mboko. Yes.

1:10:16Catherine Whitaker: And Natalie, despite attending Wimbledon for the first time this year, has been a long-time attendee of the US Open and says that, I must admit, leaving an epic match due to the late hour, the 2001 men's quarterfinal between Agassi and Sampras. Agassi love late night matches more than I did, says Natalie I get it I'm not gonna

1:10:46Matt Roberts: call

1:10:48Catherine Whitaker: I'm not gonna call Natalie out for that people have lives people have lives

1:10:55Matt Roberts: Natalie has a life to lead good for you Natalie

1:10:59Catherine Whitaker: and she now says that she's eyeing up the fan slam It hadn't been a bucket list thing for her before, but she's now, now she's got Wimbledon. She's halfway there and she thinks she's going to go for it. Two to go. I love that. Two good ones, Natalie.

1:11:16Matt Roberts: Keep us posted. Natalie, Pooja, Sharon, thank you ever so much for your support of the Tennis Podcast. If you'd like to get yourself a shout out, become a friend of the pod, get access to all of our bonus content and ad-free listening and plenty else besides, then the link to do that is in our show notes. We'll be back on Monday with our pod as normal and we'll have extra ones coming at you over the next few weeks as we cover the WTA finals and then the ATP finals in Turin as well. Thank you for listening. David, go and enjoy your holiday. We'll speak to you on Monday.

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