Is this the Amanda Anisimova era?

0:00This is Hannah Berner from Giggly Squad. O-Pill is the first over-the-counter daily birth control pill available in the U.S. Let's be real, getting a birth control prescription is not always easy and it's so much admin. In fact, about a third of women face barriers to access prescription birth control. Between scheduling appointments, missing work, class, or just trying to exist, it's a lot. But now O-Pill is putting birth control in our control. Opill is a daily birth control that's FDA approved, full prescription strength and estrogen free and 98 % effective when used as directed. Grab it online or at most major retailers, no prescription or doctor's appointment needed.

0:38So if you're thinking about birth control, check out Opill to see if it's right for you. Use code Giggly for 25 % off your first month of Opill at O-P-I-L-L dot com. That's code Giggly at O-P-I-L-L dot com. Birth control in your control. We love to see it.

0:57Matt Roberts: AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.

1:41Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast, recording on a Monday for once. I'm Catherine, David is here. Hello, David. Happy Monday. Hello.

1:51David Law: You know, that is a relief. I have felt a little bit discombobulated the last couple of weeks. It was OK last week because we did Pam Shriver Relived on Monday and I felt like that anchored me. And actually, that was such a wonderful, wonderful experience, telling Pam's story and listening to Pam's interviews with Martina and Chrissie Everton and all that, that I felt OK. But I do feel a bit at a loss if we don't do the show on a Monday. So I feel good.

2:20Matt Roberts: Yes, having the sort of stability in the structure of always recording a podcast on the Monday is sometimes the only thing that makes me feel like I have a job. It's a great job. Right, yeah, but sometimes it feels like I just sort of watch tennis and text you about it. I know, isn't it good? I do all this stuff, but if I'm not even recording a podcast on a Monday, then what is my life? Matt, how are you?

2:48Catherine Whitaker: very well thank you yes I concur with everything you've just said I I've I spent last week thinking that it was a different day than it was because when we did the weekly part on a Wednesday it it really did throw me and I had no idea what it was it was like that period between Christmas and New Year it's like everything was wrong didn't know what day it was but we're back on track. Amanda Anisimova's won a title and we're good.

3:16Matt Roberts: Yeah, we're back. We had a final on a Sunday. We are rocking and we are rolling. Goodness knows what stage Shanghai is at. We will come on to that in due course. But let's start on firm, solid ground in Beijing where, as Matt has hinted at because he just couldn't hold it in any longer, Amanda Anisimova won the title. Her second WTA 1000 title of the season beating Linda Nojkova in the final 6-love 2-6, 6-2. She'd beaten Coco Goff along the way. She'd beaten Jasmine Paolini along the way. This was an incredible run to a brilliant title. Matt Roberts, the floor is yours.

4:02Catherine Whitaker: Well, you know, there's lots of calls on our Instagram for blonde highlights or for me to go blonde. And what I would say to that is like, let's not jump the gun. Like, let's not, we don't need to get ahead of the bit. We are trending for the bit. It's gonna happen in 2026. Why ruin it by going blonde for Beijing? You know, let's all have faith that it's gonna happen next year is what I would say to that. And look, if I could have designed a final for Amanda Nissimova to win. I think it would have looked a lot like this one against Linda Noskova because we'd seen her win that title earlier in the year in Doha, which at the time was her biggest title, maybe even her biggest moment of her career.

4:51Catherine Whitaker: Now with the Grand Sam finals, she's had this summer, she wins Beijing, same level of final as Doha. But what I think was so important about this final was that she experienced stress in it. you know like we have seen her struggle a little bit to handle the nerves and the stress that can come up in a final let's not forget Tatiana Maria in that in that summer run as well you know it wasn't just the Grand Slam finals it was just finals generally and she comes out against Noskova playing the sort of tennis she played in the semi-final to just blow Coco Goff away she's absolutely middling the ball she wins the first set six love I'm thinking maybe Noskova is really struggling physically or just with the accumulation that she'd had a very physical semi-final i thought maybe anisimova was just going to blow her out but full credit to noskova because she made it a real match she found her form she started threatening anisimova and we did see the stress come for anisimova she still isn't really petra kavitova in terms of being able to brush off unforced errors you know they still have quite an effect on her she gets quite down and quite stressed but I think she needed to come through a final feeling like that and she did she got it together in the third set found her for her serve at some crucial moments as well and just ended up being a final where she brought the otherworldly level that we know she's capable of bringing and she'd fought through some doubts and some demons and to just leave a big tournament with a winning feeling you know everything had been positive all summer it's been great but she's been leaving the tournament on a bit of a on a bit of a sad note because she hadn't got her her hands on a title well now she has and yeah it's just yet more proof that this is a different player now to the one six months nine months a year ago you know this is this is the Amanda Nisimova that we're getting regularly now and yeah it's just very very exciting we we so often

6:55Matt Roberts: fall into the trap, don't we, of making big predictions for the next season based on results at post-US Open results, which can be really meaningful, but can also be borderline irrelevant. It's very difficult to know what conclusions to draw from results that happen at this time of the year. But with this particular result and Amanda Enesimova, because this is a continuation of what she's been doing all season, David, when she won Doha. I didn't expect her to keep that up and bring it to the rest of the summer. When she reached the Wimbledon final, I didn't expect her to reach the US Open final.

7:37Matt Roberts: When she reached the US Open final, I would have found it very understandable if she'd had a slightly underwhelming rest of season after that, given what her summer had looked like and the fact that that was all new for her and she's never played this much tennis before like the fact that she just continues to keep this up and it's it seems to me like at the moment at least every taste of success she gets makes her hungrier for the next taste and it doesn't always go that way does it you can get a taste of it and just think oh that was good I'll just enjoy that for a while um but that's not happening with Amanda Ennis-Move and it does make me pretty confident in Matt going blonde at some point pretty soon.

8:25Matt Roberts: What do you think?

8:26David Law: Pretty soon's vague. Next year?

8:29Matt Roberts: Next year. Next year, yeah.

8:31David Law: Catherine's on record. Okay, well, look, I do think you're absolutely right. It would have been very easy to understand if she'd had a slump now at the end of the year. This has been a heavy season. like way way the most uh energy sapping season of her career the most the busiest in because she keeps going deep in big tournaments and she she's actually got that taste that hunger for success and she's she's also not been scaling the outer reaches of her potential even by reaching finals she is this good and and she even now she's only discovering i think how good that when she i think she's always known that she's really capable and talented she's always known she's got the shots and and now she's experiencing what it's like to put them together time after time in combinations and how hurtful they are against opponents it's fascinating to to watch it before your eyes um But I think that the lack of slump is hugely significant.

9:41David Law: I think the secret is going to be now to schedule yourself well and not burn out off the back of the excitement of this. I don't exactly know how one does that on a tennis circuit like the one that there is. Hopefully you get to the WTF finals, you can play well at that and then properly shut it down for a while and come out fresh. Because she should have four good looks at Grand Slams next year. That because she's capable on all these surfaces. I do find the anxiety that she experiences in big matches still very interesting to witness. Because I never think we're going to get that. When we start a match, she looks so calm.

10:27David Law: She looks very serene. She doesn't look like she's thrashing at tennis balls because it's all so cleanly produced. But in the finals that we've had, very quickly, you've seen the anxiety come over her, even in the semi-final against Osaka. And I want to know what sort of gains there are to be made there. But I do think you're right, Matt, that in that first set that she won Six Love against Noshkova, and off the back of the two sets where she's lost three games against Coco Gauff. I mean, she's just destroying really good players and she's making them look ordinary. And actually, I thought when that Six Love was going on, I almost thought, okay, is this the new Amanda Nisamova where she's got this in the back of her mind that she got beaten Six Love, Six Love in the win-win final and now she's going to purposefully go out and try to inflict those on other people as a way of kind of exercising that memory.

11:26and then suddenly she's lost her way.

11:30David Law: Huge credit to Noshkova for not just disintegrating because she'd had that epic semi and how easy would it have been for her to have won one game in the match or not any at all. And she made a real fight of it, made it stressful, did what her coach would be hoping she would do and yet Enesmova still won. And she won it with the signature backhand down the line that you felt the moment the ball is coming towards it, her eyes just widened and she thought, right, I am going to nail this because I want to know what that feels like. I want to know what it feels like to win a big title on my backhand, on the backhand.

12:05David Law: And, yeah, I just hope that at some point I'd love to see the Amanda Inissimova, who isn't stressed, play in a Grand Slam final. I don't know even if that's possible.

12:17Matt Roberts: Do you think it's about not being stressed and not being anxious or do you think it's about being able to play through that? I mean, probably. I mean, my experience of anxiety is, you know, when it hits those extreme moments, it's not about not experiencing it. It's about sort of knowing this too shall pass and being able to kind of breathe through it. And I guess the more she plays and wins through it, the more possible that is going to feel for her. I don't know. I guess every individual is different.

12:52Catherine Whitaker: I think that's why I mentioned Petra Kvitova, because I really do see some parallels right now. You know, Petra Kvitova was incredible at winning three set matches. And Anisimova has got an absolutely fantastic three set record at the moment. And she was a ball striker who could just totally take the racket out of your hand and be pretty much the best ball striker on tour. And that's what I think Anisimova is. But what Kvitova had was that incredible quality to move on from unforced errors and not let them stress her out and not tailspin, not let the wheels come off. And I think David's right.

13:34Catherine Whitaker: We do still see that with Anissimova in some of these big matches. She's often been getting it back on track. You know, certainly she's done a lot better at that since the Wimbledon final. I do think that Wimbledon final was a singular experience. I don't think we'll ever get something like that again. But just the general anxiety and stress, I think it's going to be there. But if she can, as you say, learn to just deal with it and accept it, I think that is going to be the sort of final transformation, which is going to turn her into a Grand Slam champion. Because what I want to do now is actually just praise parts of her game which aren't her backhand.

14:14Catherine Whitaker: I feel like there are so many aspects of her game right now which are clicking the forehand has become such a weapon like and that is such a problem for opponents because they want to avoid the backhand of course they do but Anissa Mova is now extremely capable of hurting you off both wings with pretty much equal consistency she served well in some big moments this tournament, you know, I'm thinking particularly of that game against Jasmine Paolini, the 3-4 game in the final set, one of the games of the year, Anisimova faced six break points, hit winners on four of them, came up with big serves.

14:57Catherine Whitaker: That was a really strong moment. And then the movement. I want to shout out the movement. You know, the way she won the first set against Noskova, hitting this forehand pass on the run, Anisimova was not capable of doing that. a few months ago, I would say, certainly years ago, that over time she's just improved that incrementally to where now, look, she's not the best mover on tour, but I'm no longer watching these matches thinking it's really holding her back. You know, she's getting to balls, she's putting them away, she's defending a bit better. Just incremental improvements have made a big difference.

15:37Catherine Whitaker: And the whole package right now is elite.

15:42Matt Roberts: Yeah, what really struck me about the movement in kind of all three of those, the last three matches she played in Beijing, the Paolini match, the Goff match and the final against Norskow. But what is increasingly striking me is, yes, the movement is just a world away from what it was even nine months ago. But she's also so much less exposed on the movement front because she's holding her ground on the baseline so magnificently. She does not allow herself to get pushed back. It takes a heck of a shot to push her off that baseline and to open up those angles against her because she looks so strong in her core.

16:27Matt Roberts: When a ball comes big at her body and I'm expecting her to sort of end up off balance, she doesn't. I mean, obviously the timing helps that she knows she can middle it back. But you've got to have a certain, a pretty high level of solidity and strength to be able to do that. And that really strikes me as a massive improvement in her game. Because while her movement has improved massively, like she's never going to be, you know, she's not Jasmine Paolini out there. That's not her A game. it's great that she's got that to fall back on but when I think back to that match we saw her play against Emma Raducanu on the Kia Arena we all went out together didn't we to watch it in Australia and just what a different tennis player she is now in that match which was this year Hard to believe that isn't it?

17:31Matt Roberts: you know radhakanu exposed the movement so partially that day is is my memory of it and yes when she was in position to hit a gorgeous sweet ground stroke she she did it and it made you gasp but it never felt sustainable to me and now i just trust her completely and i think that that

17:56Catherine Whitaker: solidity that grounding you're talking about not not causing these sorts of dynamic rallies so to speak it really does suit her game because she doesn't need to go for lines all the time like her general weight of shot is enough to hurt pretty much every player you know like she can she can actually just hit hard through the middle and likely the likelihood is she's going to set up a short ball for herself that she can then put away and she really seems to have hit a groove with that right now like yes okay she's occasionally hitting these sort of line licking ground strokes but she's not having to and I think that as you said Catherine does come from that core stability she's got right now she just trusts herself in just back and forth exchanges kind of up the middle of the court that eventually she's going to take advantage and and get the kind of get the lead in the points and yeah it's a it's a incredible incredible asset that she's got right now there

19:02Matt Roberts: just going back to some of the the matches that she won along the way to that final the semi against Coco Goff 6-1 6-2 the scoreline in that and that was not David's unrepresentative of what that match looked like.

19:19David Law: No, no, I was worried for Coco Gauff to get that many at times in that match. I think whenever you're watching those two play against one another, I at least am waiting for Anisimova's level to drop. Not because she's not capable of it, but I mean, the level was so high, it was ridiculous. And also I'm waiting for Gauff to be able to get her teeth into the match because she gets her teeth into most matches It's because she's just this incredible competitor. I mean, actually, if you look at her route through to that match, she'd had a lot of close matches again. You know, it's still not there. She'd had one match that I think had 15 or something breaks of serve in it, maybe more, you know.

20:02David Law: And it's a tale of two there, really, with her and Inisimova. Inisimova has discovered herself. now I hope this isn't short term for her sake and I really don't think it is I think she she is everything strokes wise that Coco Goff dreams of being there are no weaknesses in her stroke she doesn't have to go back and dismantle anything she's got to work on kind of getting a couple of the the talents that Coco Goff has the movement and the and the kind of incredibly the strong mental approach in the tough moments. And you've got Coco Goff, who's just trying to figure out how to play really good tennis again.

20:47David Law: What a weird situation for her to be and yet still competing at the top end of the game, having won a Grand Slam. The game changes so quickly, doesn't it? It moves on so quickly, but she doesn't look any closer, put it this way, to figuring it all out.

21:02Matt Roberts: It was one of those matches and performances from Goff that was kind of so alarming that I had to sort of stabilise myself with the voice of Matt Roberts in my head saying the thing with Coco Goff is that she's never as high as you think and she's never as low as you think. And I really think that is a great Coco Goff wisdom that's important to remember in moments like this because it really did It looked like a low Coco Goff ebb, that performance.

21:34Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, definitely. You know, Matt Futterman texted me just after that result saying, doesn't Issa Mova into the final make up for Fulham's loss last night in terms of how you're feeling? And I was kind of like, no, because I didn't really enjoy that match. Like, I just don't like seeing Coco Goff in that form and playing like that. I think that line about she's never as low as you expect. Like, the game can be that low. It's more just she still manages to get results. Look, she's still got to the semis of a 1 ,000. That's kind of what I'm talking about there, you know? Like, she still manages to eke out these results and get through a lot of the tour, but she does often come up against a player, like in that Redhawk form that Anissa Moe was in.

22:21Catherine Whitaker: And if she's struggling, you know, she just kind of gets blown away there, as we saw. But yeah, I mean, as you said, it could have been worse. Nisimov had a set point for Six Love in the first set and served for Six Love in the second set. I mean, this was very close to a double bagel. And yeah, Goff just couldn't get neutral in a rally, just couldn't get into a point where you felt like she was confident with her strokes at all. And yeah, it feels like still quite a long way back for Coco Goff from where she needs to be. But the sort of solace I take is I know she's prepared for that. You know, I don't think she's expecting it necessarily to just be quick and to click straight away.

23:05Catherine Whitaker: You know, she's putting in the work for the long term effect on her career. And that's that's pretty admirable, I think. But, yeah, it does feel like we've got some some struggle moments and months still ahead for Coco Gauff as she as she rebuilds.

23:20Matt Roberts: a word from you both please on the nozkova pagula semi-final loved it probably the match of the week really yeah well in fact definitely the match of the week incredible great match and and some

23:35David Law: surprises in it because i know pagula had had match point issues earlier in the tournament or set point issues against Emma Devaro and she'd also saved them against Emma Raducanu it was a very strange week and maybe that was an end of season type sequence of performances from Pagula who I still think needs huge credit for having got to this point and I messaged you both during that match with Noshka and said I love this type of match where Pagula is having to do all this chasing and retrieving because I think she's a brilliant retriever against a big hitter. Great at reading where a ball's going to go and manipulating it back often with a forehand slice and turning points around.

24:26David Law: I think it's a great watch. But once she'd sort of turned it around, I really thought she was going to win. And huge credit to Noshkova. You know, there's a real, really tenacious player in there who is, because she's so young, and I think it's very easy to forget how young she is. Is she not turned 20 yet?

24:49Catherine Whitaker: She's 20 turning 21 in a couple of months, I think.

24:53Matt Roberts: You know, it's still young, David.

24:55David Law: We've been talking about her for three years or so. And more so as just a ball striker. And actually, I think she's shown more to herself than that. I mean, what I like is that when she played a Nisimovic, she was able to dig into her game and actually not just spray it all over the place. It would have been so easy to do that. And when Pegula's getting all these balls back, it would be so easy to just start thinking, oh, it's just all going against me. And she was really dogged. And I think this felt like the best I've seen of her ever. And I know she's had really big wins in the past at Grand Slams.

25:40David Law: She beat Ysriante, didn't she, at the Australian Open. But this felt like a higher level overall because it wasn't just teeing off. This was point construction. It was choosing the moment to pull the trigger. And I was very surprised that she ended up winning, though, because I think of Pegula getting into those winning positions and not letting go.

26:05Matt Roberts: Yeah, and I think that Nostovar had a very bad three-set record. I mean, still has a pretty bad three-set record coming into that Pegula match. And Pegula had all this muscle memory of winning these tight matches and saving match points against Emerald Iqani. Like the stats said that that match was only going one way when it became a tight three setter. So, yeah, credit to Linda Nozkova big time. And for making the final competitive because she had less turnaround time. I thought that was going to be the remains of Linda Nozkova against Amanda Onisimova and even more so after the first set. I did not see that being a competitive final and she really showed us something, I think.

26:51Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I was formulating a big rant about the scheduling of these 12-day thousand events where you have all the time. I'm still here for that, Matt. I still think it's valid.

27:01Matt Roberts: We have space and time.

27:02Catherine Whitaker: You know, you have all the time in the world to play the tournament and yet they end up playing these, you know, semi-final and final on back-to-back days and in Nosyfer's case, I think it was far less than 24 hours rest that she had. You know, it really felt like she went from playing her gruelling semi-final to almost immediately being back on court in the final and you just think, you've got all this time to play the tournament and yet you're cramming the two most important matches in to a very, very short period. It just seems completely nonsensical to me. But I thought what Noskova did well in that final was going off court after the first set when she got blown out 6-0.

27:38Catherine Whitaker: I still look back on the Wimbledon final and think, God, what if Anisimov had gone off court after that first set against Fionté? You know how sometimes a reset can just help you when Noskova did that here. She's got, as David's talking about there, underrated hands I think Noskovic think of her as just a big heavy flat hitter from the baseline but actually she does that thing of hitting a slice kind of with two hands on the racket she's got quite a lot of control on it I like the approach she has on the serve where she doesn't always hit a very high percentage of first serves but it's dangerous serve she's towards the top of the list in terms of like points one on first serve and ace is hit It makes her a dangerous player when everything's working.

28:25Catherine Whitaker: Just on Pagula, there was an extraordinary stat going around this week from Opta that her comeback win against Navarro was only the second time in her career that she'd come from a set down to beat a top 20 player against 47 losses. I mean, isn't that remarkable? I totally think of Pagula as someone who...

28:53Matt Roberts: As not how I think of her at all.

28:55Catherine Whitaker: You know, who can fight through matches and make matches really, really tough against top players. But, and look, Noskova, when she played her, wasn't ranked in the top 20. So the final isn't a sort of another example of that. But it is the same pattern in terms of losing the first set, getting it back on track in the second, and then ending up not winning. so I don't know whether there's something that I think I think she is a tremendous fighter Pagula I never doubt that at all but I wonder if there is something in the sort of slightly I don't want to say one-dimensional because I don't think she is one-dimensional I think I think she does have hands and touch you know Pagula but tends to be kind of the same game plan I sort of I think if players figure it out and they like her ball a little bit, maybe they do end up just coming through it.

29:48Catherine Whitaker: Certainly the very, very top players. I don't really know how to explain that stat, but it did catch my eye. And yes, something I'll be looking out for going forward, whether Pagula can come back in these matches against top players.

30:05Matt Roberts: Just going, circling back to Navarro for a moment, I feel like we should touch upon her defeat of Igor Shvantec in the last 16, that match ending with a six-love set to Navarro. This match was happening while we were recording our last podcast. Goodness knows when that was, a few days ago. And we all ended up watching the latter stages of it together and obviously being really shocked at seeing Igor Shiontek lose a bagel set. Like, that is a really shocking sight. does it does it mean anything David or does it just underline the point that Iga Shionte made in the quotes that we read out last week and has been making for a long time and that we're going to end up talking about again later on in the show that she and a heck of a lot of other players on tour are just running on fumes and have absolutely nothing left to give I certainly don't

31:03David Law: think you can be surprised when the very top players are losing by scorelines and matches generally that you wouldn't expect them to lose there's enough evidence out there and Svantec there I mean look Navara is a very good player she played really well in that final set but yeah I think I think Svantec hit the wall a little bit in that in that match and you know we we've seen Sabalenka not play the tournament. We've seen, I know Alcaraz was injured, but not play Shanghai. We're going to talk about Sinner later. You know, there's enough evidence out there. So no, I certainly don't. There's no alarm bells from a Svantec point of view as a player.

31:46David Law: Just that this circuit is not fit for purpose.

31:52Catherine Whitaker: The only thing I would say is that that Schviontek hadn't suffered a bagel set for three years and she's suffered three this year. And that doesn't totally strike me as a coincidence. I think that in all of those matches, there's just been a real sort of stubbornness to her where she's just kept hitting out, kept hitting out and it just causing a lot of unforced errors. Look, Navarro played well here, definitely. but Shiontek was way off it and it was interesting her quote afterwards saying I knew what I was doing wrong I was stuck doing it rather than actually solving it and I think maybe there is just this slight process of unlearning that she's going through right now where she's hired Wim Fassett I think to take her away from that game style of hitting out all the time that was what caused a lot of success under Thomas Vickorovsky, but it got to kind of breaking point.

32:56Catherine Whitaker: And we did see her hitting out more and more and it not being good. I think with Fissette, he's tried to get away from that a little bit, but I do think occasionally she's lapsing back into it still. I think it's hard to sort of change the way you've been playing for a while. And maybe it comes out when she is tired, as you said. I think it very much goes in with the schedule chat. I think if she's fresh, she's far less likely to do that but under those conditions I think we sometimes see her go back to her old ways which kind of stopped working for her um last year or so which is why you know part of why I think she made the coaching change so I think you know there's a little something in there in terms of game but I but I do take your point as well about you know kind of the relentlessness of the schedule and given Jvontek's made those comments we know that she's feeling that way as

33:49Matt Roberts: well she is the most reluctant of of all of those players that you mentioned that are sort of making having to make difficult schedule decisions because as david says the schedule is not fit for purpose they're playing more than anybody else because they're winning more than everybody else she is the most reluctant to skip events isn't she by that that is marked and i i think I think that might just be a kind of personality trait about her. Charlie Eccleshare calls it the kind of head girl mentality of like she's a rule abider, I think, isn't she? And those these tournaments are mandatory according to the rules.

34:31Matt Roberts: Now, we all we all know that mandatory is a is a is a word that can be fuzzy in its definition. certainly where top players are concerned who have a lot of power and flexibility. And also, you know, with the, as I said last week, the women have fewer exhibition options available to them and the prize money at the thousands is very, very good. And that's not always the case at women's events. And also she's, I'm sure, trying to get the world number one spot back, although that loss in Beijing makes it unlikely now. I'm sure that was an incentive as well. But it's definitely the case that she's the most reluctant, I think, to skip the events.

35:21Matt Roberts: I mean, she's played so much.

35:24David Law: Yeah. And look, obviously, I tried to broach the subject in the way I spoke to her at the end of the US Open about intending to talk about the need to have holidays and to have enforced gaps, you know, that you put in there, not enforced, but chosen, elected gaps in your schedule and the circuit not allowing them. But, you know, Novak Djokovic, I think, said earlier this week, you can do it, you've just got to forego a bit. You've just got to accept not to do what you're supposed to do according to the tour rules. And I think if I were her team, I would be encouraging that. look they know her better than I do and she knows herself better than I do but I but I just it it isn't doable it isn't doable to win everything and enter everything and win everything you cannot do it I don't care who you are so you've got to make choices and and and the sort of defining quality of Shiontech's season is that she has been going deep in every tournament like her

36:30Catherine Whitaker: her sort of title rate has gone down, but she's suffered very, very few early losses, which has meant that she's constantly been in the quarters, semis, finals of tournaments. And you are literally on tour the entire time if you're doing that. Like, you know, going from one tournament to another, you're constantly in competition mode. She's not really had a defeat early where suddenly it's like, oh, okay, maybe that could be a blessing in disguise because now I've got some time off. She's playing everything, winning a lot, which is fantastic. You know, that's why she's, you know, up there in the race and in with a chance of being world number one.

37:10Catherine Whitaker: But it has to it has to take its toll. Like it's just so much tennis.

37:16Matt Roberts: I mean, it is taking its toll. She's telling us it's taking its toll. but yeah and and i feel for her that like you shouldn't have to break your tours rules in order to in order to make life sort of sustainable um sort of physically and mentally but that is the the state of affairs um just a quick update on the wta finals qualification statuses after Beijing. Obviously, we still have Wuhan to come, which is also a 1 ,000 event so lots of points on offer on there. The field is mostly set for the WTA finals. Svjantek, Sabalenka, Goff, Anisimova and Keys have all qualified. The next three spots going down to number eight currently are occupied by Jessica Pagula, Mira Andreeva and Elena Rabakina.

38:12Matt Roberts: It looks like Pagula and Andreva are probably safe. I think we are going to get an exciting contest, hopefully, between Rabakina and Paolini for the last qualification spot. They do seem to be in a bit of a tussle. Paolini obviously will be there for the doubles. So it'd be very convenient for her if she could be in the singles as well. She's in town anyway. but yeah it looks like we will get a tussle between those two she's only 200 points behind Rabakina is Paolini and they won the doubles in Beijing Paolini and Irani and the trophy was sort of bigger than Jasmine Paolini's torso

38:59David Law: there was a great photo little shoot from Irani and Paolini wasn't there where they they had paulini holding it and basically hiding behind it and then suddenly the big reveal that she was there in the second photo great beijing do do good trophies don't

39:15Matt Roberts: they enormous classic yeah but but nice like they it's yeah really nice trophies yeah they're

39:24Catherine Whitaker: aesthetically yeah they are they are they're not like sort of garish yeah no they're just enormous

39:29Matt Roberts: from a mantelpiece point of view i'd love to know what size the replicas are right that is it for your Beijing WTA roundup join us in part two and we'll turn our attention to the swamp that is Shanghai this week today's show is brought to you by Vanguard

39:48David Law: to all the financial advisors listening let's talk bonds for a minute capturing value in fixed income isn't easy bond markets are massive murky and let's be real lots of firms throw a couple of flashy funds your way and call it a day, but not Vanguard. Vanguard bonds are institutional quality. Institutional quality isn't a tagline. It's a commitment to your clients. It means top grade products across the board. Vanguard's been in the game a long time and their scale gives them a serious edge. They're able to invest across all kinds of sectors, maturities and geographies, which means they can spot and act on opportunities that others might miss.

40:30David Law: So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for yourself at vanguard.com forward slash audio. That's vanguard.com forward slash audio. All investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor. Thank you for calling the Bombas Comfort Line. Bombas make socks, slippers, tees, and underwear made with the highest quality materials. Press 1 for comfort, 2 for style, 3 for donation. You chose style. Bombas is styles for whatever you enjoy. You can run in Bombas, lounge in Bombas, dress them up, dress them down, but always give back in Bombas.

41:09Because with every item purchased, another is donated. Bombas, comfort worth calling for. Go to bombas.com slash audio and use code audio for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com and use code audio. As a small business owner, you're the CEO, the marketing team, and the customer service rep all at once. I was recently talking to a shop owner who told me their worst nightmare isn't a slow day, it's the vanishing act. It's that moment you're inches away from a deadline and the Wi-Fi just disappears. We've all felt that pit in our stomach when the connection flares up right when it matters most.

41:42Your business is only as strong as your connection. AT &T Business is the reliable provider built for that exact brand of hustle. so you can stay focused on the work that builds your legacy. Powered by AT &T Business. Built to work. Get AT &T Business at business.att.com.

42:04Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of the Tennis Podcast, where we turn our attention now to Shanghai and the ATP 1000 event happening there in incredibly challenging conditions. The conditions are the biggest feature and the biggest talking point of this tournament so far. I know it can be and has been hot before this tournament, this time of year, but from what I've gathered, this year's edition has been like nothing anybody's ever experienced before there in terms of the heat and I think in particular the humidity. It has been honestly quite hard to watch at times. These tennis players that are already, you know they're already on fumes at this time of the season, kind of being thrown out into this torture chamber, really, of conditions.

43:00Matt Roberts: And that all came to a head yesterday, watching Yannick Sinner retire after two and a half hours and settle with Talon Greeksport in the most appalling state. You know, the fact that he tried to play on for as long as he did when he was, I mean, physically unable to move. He was either convulsing or stock still like a statue because his legs wouldn't allow him to move. He had to be helped off court by a tall physio. It was a really, really shocking scene in Shanghai. And this was the most extreme, but there have been quite a few like that. And I don't know how you felt watching it, Matt, but I was quite distressed by those images.

43:54Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, massively. There hasn't been a match I've watched in Shanghai over the last few days that hasn't been in some way impacted by the conditions. I mean, we're talking mid 30 degrees Celsius right through to the end of the day. and 90, 95 % humidity, as far as I understand it, like absolutely brutal. Alex Dimonor said in his interview afterwards, and you could see it, like he walked onto court with basically a full suitcase. He said, I've got like eight shirts. I've got four pairs of shoes. I've got shorts to change into. Like he is, like they're just sweating immediately as soon as these matches are starting.

44:40Catherine Whitaker: And Novak Djokovic was sick a couple of times in his match on the court. Like, it is brutal. And you've got these combination of factors, those conditions, the end of the season where everyone's running on fumes anyway, and the super slow conditions in Shanghai, which means it's extremely hard to sort of hit through the court. So we're getting these really long rallies as well. I mean, Taylor Fritz was another one, absolutely broken at the end of his match against Mpeshi Perikar. And, you know, these are, you know, top level tennis players are some of the most incredible athletes on the planet.

45:19Catherine Whitaker: And yet they're all just absolutely exhausted by these conditions. And yes, Sinner, I think, was the most stark example. I would say, first of all, credit to Greekspor for like going two and a half hours with Yannick Sinner and not just getting blown off court like we see so many do. We still have that thing, don't we, with Yannick Sinnoh and his three-hour, 50-minute record where he's never won a match. I'm not convinced it's this huge thing because look at the tennis we saw him play after five hours against Alcarez in the French Open final. But mostly it's not that much of a thing because players can't get him to that point.

46:00Catherine Whitaker: Well, Greek Spore played a brilliant match and got him to two hours 30 and managed to sort of win that match just totally physically. But yeah, absolutely horrible to see Yannick Sinner like that, cramping so much. And look, I think these were particularly extreme conditions. I mostly look at the conditions there as a factor. Not sure how applicable it is to sort of other events. But it does feel like Sinner's two biggest obstacles right now are Carlos Alcaraz and his own health. you know if you look back on the last 18 months or so he's tended to either lose to Alcarez or have to withdraw from a tournament because of illness or be or suffer a loss in which he's physically compromised and that factor does still remain I think for Yannick Sinner like I don't not really blaming his conditioning in terms of this batch and this performance I think it was extreme especially for him off the back of just playing a tournament and winning in Beijing but if you know if we're kind of looking for little signs of Yannick Sinner I don't want to say weakness but kind of some of his worst elements it does seem to be that sort of durability in terms of tour and in some of these matches and conditions like we do see him cramp we do see him struggle a little bit and yeah it does feel like something an area where he can still hopefully improve but yeah it was a brutal watch it's the sort of thing the locker room will take

47:35Matt Roberts: note of right when you've got a locker room of people that are thinking and saying things like public like this guy's a machine can't get near him like it just ever so slightly chips away at that machine like aura doesn't it which i know sinner really really rejects that kind of rhetoric and I really respect why, because it kind of undermines and minimises how hard what he does is to kind of write it off as him just being a machine. But it just, you know, gives that little bit of a glimpse if you are a player that, for whom fitness is one of your great, great strengths, you know, I don't know, a Cam Norrie with his horse lungs.

48:17Matt Roberts: You can go out there and think, OK, I can't beat him in a hitting contest, but if I can just get this to four hours in a slam match, Maybe I've got a chance. But yet looking at these matches and these conditions, like, okay, this is extreme and it's unlucky. But we are encountering extreme conditions more and more often. On tour, in the world, the world is, despite what the sociopath woman at the buses in New York thinks, the world is heating up and tennis is just, Just it's another thing that tennis is ignoring, like like the stat you gave us last week, Matt, about how players aren't necessarily top players aren't necessarily playing more matches than they were 10, 15 years ago.

49:03Matt Roberts: But matches are different now. They're longer. Things are changing. if you're not making accommodations for that then then you're you're breaking your own system and yeah tennis is just making no accommodations for the fact that the world is getting a harder and harder place to well exist in but certainly to do

49:27Catherine Whitaker: perform athletic feats outside in yeah i i was i just kept having the image of medvedev at that us open match can't exactly remember when it was where he sort of breaks the fourth wall and looks into the camera and says something like someone's gonna die and then they're gonna see you know and like obviously that's you know medvedev saying that but there's a point there like it's being pushed so far and I think the tennis calendar is almost certainly going to look very very different in 25 years 50 years I don't know like but it's going to have to make accommodations and you just hope that they don't make the accommodations like literally when it's too late like we we should be sort of ahead of the game on this and seeing the direction it's going and just thinking about, as a sport, what we can do to combat it.

50:26Catherine Whitaker: And I just don't get the sense that that's really happening. And yeah, it's shocking to watch.

50:33Matt Roberts: We're at a tipping point, but we're not going to tip, to quote Matt Roberts again. And yet, David, despite all of this, 38-year-old Novak Djokovic is probably favourite to win this title, especially now we've just seen Alizondra Zverev crash out to credible Arta Rindeknesh, the revelation of 2025, Arta Rindeknesh.

50:57David Law: Marvel.

50:59Matt Roberts: He's a marvel. Novak Djokovic is definitely a marvel.

51:04David Law: Yeah. I mean, it's a good question, isn't it? A really interesting case study that Djokovic is the one left in without Sinner, without Alkraaz, without Zverev now, without Fritz. Now, look, Fritz has never caused Djokovic any problems, we know. But this is the one to test the theory that Djokovic in 2025 is head and shoulders the third best player in the world. And if it's not the other two, then it's him. That said, these conditions do make me feel differently about that. I don't know how he won yesterday. he was playing Yannick Hanferman who was, look maybe that's part of the reason he's playing a player who's significantly less of a player than he is and than certain other opponents are Hanferman who had beaten Francis Tiafoe played brilliantly to get a set up against Djokovic but when put under pressure eventually was broken down mentally and his game as well Djokovic was fantastic I thought to come through that you know and and to to withstand we know he hates heat and humidity he's always hated it and yet he's the one left standing of these very top guys so huge credit to him for that but i but i'm not convinced that he wins this tournament because this these conditions are not improving um he could do of course he could and i i wonder what's going through his mind i mean the way the way he's talking he seems to just be loving being there again having not been there necessarily for a

52:41Matt Roberts: while and not necessarily knowing he gets a lot of love in china oh yeah he's pretty open about the love being a big motivator for him at the moment he's buzzing from it but i don't know

52:52David Law: whether it will be buzzing to have to go through these conditions much more um so he's got jamming

52:58Matt Roberts: jamming munar yeah next when are that to face diallo or bergs and then in that section of the draw you've got greekspor vachero runa and peshi perikar when you when you reel off those sort of

53:14David Law: names catherine and it's monday now as we talk to you and this thing's going on until sunday there is a dearth of big names in this draw and if that isn't alarm bells to the atp i don't know what is because i'm telling you yannick sinner this time next year is probably going to be having a bit of a think about whether he wants to put himself through this again. Choices will be made.

53:39Matt Roberts: He's probably seen the pictures of Carlos Alcraz at a wedding over the weekend sort of feeling pretty darn good about his life choices and Djokovic and Sabalenka they took last week off, I mean Djokovic is taking a lot of weeks off but Sabalenka didn't play Beijing and Djokovic and Sabalenka seem to be going on double dates with their respective other halves in Greece you know just having a grand old time yeah I yeah I agree with you um

54:14David Law: yeah I just I just think it's are we gonna reach a point where there's a reckoning about this I mean how many tournaments can you can you end up with with not your star names when they're supposed to be your biggest events um i'd like to think that that will be getting

54:35Catherine Whitaker: taken in as part of the consideration at some point yeah i think we've had six or seven uh retirements in shanghai already and if you look at the history of masters 1000 events this year has provided three of the top six most amount of retirements in a masters 1000 event and look part of that is because there are more matches now in masters 1000 events you've got more players in the draw like mathematically statistically you probably would expect the number of retirements to go up but like it's not a good thing it's not a good thing that with number of retirements seem to be going up and whether that's because there are more players in the draw partly i also think it's massively because of the general load on these players now and the and the extended the time that they're spending at tournaments and you know we've talked about it but like we're seeing tournaments be compromised you know and players either not enter or have to pull out halfway through and it's just it's just happening a lot right now yes seven sinner marach rude goffin

55:48Matt Roberts: mjedevic atman and woo and then of course withdrawals as well algaraz draper sit to pass with Drew, I think. And a lot of players playing through degrees of injury as well. I mean, I don't know how much Alexander Zvere's back was troubling him over the course of that defeat to Arta Rindeknesh. I mean, he lost to Arta Rindeknesh at Wimbledon when fully fit, didn't he? So maybe even suggesting that is doing our friend Arta, or certainly your friend Arta, David, a disservice. Or maybe, David, it's the court speed conspiracy at play. Yeah.

56:35David Law: Yeah, our friend Zverev thinks that everything's being organised to suit Alcaraz and Sina by tournament directors who want them in the final, correct?

56:47Matt Roberts: Correct, but Roger Federer thinks it too. So we had Alexander Zverev after his win in the previous round over... Who did he beat? Somebody.

57:03David Law: He beat Valentin Royer. Yeah.

57:09Matt Roberts: He did an on-court interview with the ATP and he was asked about court speed. And it is slow in Shanghai. It's slow. It's it's it would be better if the court were faster in Shanghai for for all the reasons we just laid out. That is that is incontrovertible. But Alexander Zverev said, I hate when it's the same. To be honest, he said, I think tournament directors are going towards that direction, that direction being slowing down courts, because obviously they want Yannick and Carlos to do well every tournament. and that's what they prefer. Nowadays, you can play almost the same way on every surface.

57:54Matt Roberts: You certainly can. I don't like it. I'm not a fan of it. I think tennis needs different game styles. Tennis needs a little bit of variety. And I think we're lacking that right now.

58:09Matt Roberts: Which, you know, maybe that's a fair point. But I mean, quite a lot of irony coming from Alexander Zverev and his game style. But anyway, those comments were then put to Yannick Sinner after his victory. And I almost don't want to read out the quotes because the quotes are by the by. The real response was in his facial expression, which was an absolute 10 out of 10 when those quotes were put to him. It's just tremendous face from Yannick Sinner. He said, me and Carlos, we don't make the courts. It's not our decision. we try to adapt ourselves in every situation. I feel still like every week is a bit different.

58:51Matt Roberts: I've played some great tennis, even when it was faster courts, but I'm not making the courts, so I just try and adapt and play the best tennis I can, and that's it. And just for background, because Alexander Zverev isn't plucking this from thin air, it sounded pretty... It was salty when he said it, but Roger Federer had said it less than two weeks before, appearing on Andy Roddick's podcast Serve during the Labour Cup. He said, we need to have not only fast courts, but what we would want to see is Al-Kharaz Osina figure it out on lightning fast courts and then have the same match on super slow courts and see how that matches up.

59:37it's because the tournament directors have allowed with the ball speed and the court speed

59:42Matt Roberts: that every week is basically the same and that's why you can just go from winning French Wimbledon US Open and just play the same way so Roger Federer has kind of handed Alexander Zverev there a kind of excuse for his shortcomings which it doesn't surprise me at all that Alexander Zverev is gladly accepted with open arms. I kind of don't, I don't want words from you, I want face from you, both like Yannick Sinner gave us, but that doesn't really work on a podcast, unless you're with us on YouTube. But your reactions, please, to this conspiracy theory that Federer and Zverev have hatched in Vancouver.

1:00:31Matt Roberts: No, not Vancouver, San Francisco.

1:00:33David Law: go i i do i do think federer's got a point that that that there is too much similar speed tennis generally i don't that i'd like to see some statistics put up to back that up so that we know exactly what the speeds that we're talking about are and i think that they do do some speeds out there um that i would love to sort of probably be able to analyze but there's no question that Wimbledon and the French Open are not what they used to be in terms of their differential. And more generally, courts are slower than they used to be. And that is just an eye test, I think is clear. And whether that is the surface or the ball speeds or the strings or whatever it might be, I think most people would agree that they are slower.

1:01:24David Law: but I don't think that anybody can judge Alcaraz and Sinner's relative successes based on that. I mean, come on. This is not like Rafa and Nadal's won 14 French Opens because he's really good on clay. Sinner and Alcaraz are so by far and away better than all of you, you being Alexander Zverev at the top of the list, that that is the reason that they're winning all these titles, not because poor you, they're on a surface that suits them more than it suits you.

1:01:59Matt Roberts: And there's also the suggestion that this is a big conspiracy by tournament directors to conspire to get Sinner and Alcaraz finals, which I find very odd because that's kind of the one thing you don't need to even try to engineer in tennis at the moment, the success of Sinner and Alcaraz. Like, I just find that I am usually very happy to be cynical about stuff. And I just don't think that is what is happening from tournament directors. Courts might be being slowed down, generally. I don't think that is a conspiracy to ensure that Alcaraz and Sinna are reaching the final. I really don't.

1:02:48Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, it struck me that Federer's comments on this were kind of stuck for maybe like a decade or two decades ago when Federer came through in that era where, you know, I think in the sort of mid 2000s and sort of peaking in the sort of what we would think of as like the main crux of the big four era, sort of 2007 to 2014 or so. the courts were slow and there had been a definite slowing down of courts you know like we you know we lost for example the lightning quick wimbledon we lost the sort of indoor carpet courts that we talked about with pam shriver on that show you know like that that surface went and generally courts were slower and it strikes me that federer is still sort of thinking about that time what's actually happened in the last few years if you do look at the data and you look at stuff like ace rates or average rally length which are which are good tells for sort of court speed is that in the last few years we've actually okay we're not fast we're not like really fast like it was back in the 90s but the speed of the surface has gone up a little bit and there is some variation on the tour like we haven't got the extremes we haven't got like super fast and we haven't got super slow but there are courts that you would define as fast and there are courts that you would define as slow or medium slow and the thing is akron sinna are winning events on the slow courts and the fast courts you know like they're winning not because of the court surface but because of their games and the variation that they have in their games like the iron the great irony here i think is that zverev would massively benefit from all courts being exactly the same because he only really has that one way of playing.

1:04:36Catherine Whitaker: And he could play the same way on all surfaces and maybe have some success on it. But it takes variety, and Alcrest and Sinner are able to succeed in spite of difference in surfaces, not because of it. But I think, to me, Zverev discarded his right to speak about this when he gave that analysis of the Mazzetti match in Rome.

1:05:03Matt Roberts: Do you remember his analysis on that match?

1:05:05Catherine Whitaker: When he sort of claimed that Mazzetti was one-dimensional and not playing attacking and defensive all the time. And it was like, you were playing that match. Like, how on earth is that your analysis of it? And it just goes to show that I think you can sort of, it's a classic example of thinking that the world has sort of conspired against him. and finding excuses for why he's not winning all the time.

1:05:37Matt Roberts: He's also just been... I mean, obviously, we've been recording during it, so we haven't watched every point, but he's just been beaten by a guy playing a lot of variety.

1:05:46David Law: With twice the number of winners. Yeah.

1:05:53David Law: He seems to be all right. Go and ask Arta if it's too slow.

1:05:58Matt Roberts: tournament directors are conspiring to get arta rindeknesh into the latter stages of these tournaments and who can blame them he is it he's a good time yes that's right i tell you what he

1:06:10David Law: he is playing some bloody great stuff i mean this is not isolated now i mean the the laughingstock of it all came from his five game run against yannick sinner when he went five love up in in one of the sets there and he was just absolutely out of this world and then he barely won another point in the whole match and and i found that really amusing at the time and and i just thought that okay that's him he he can have a flashy spell in a match but he can't string anything together and since then he's gone and beaten zverev twice he's he doesn't lose early very often he had a run at the us open i mean this is the best period of his career and you know he might be the man to come through this draw.

1:06:52David Law: That'd be quite fun.

1:06:53Matt Roberts: Hang on, to win Shanghai?

1:06:55David Law: Why not? I mean, who else are you picking? If it's not Djokovic, who else are you picking?

1:07:03Catherine Whitaker: Alex Dimonor? Yeah, if it's not, maybe.

1:07:05Matt Roberts: If it's not Djokovic, it's...

1:07:08Catherine Whitaker: I sort of think Dimonor's, like, got a lot to play for in terms of, you know, trying to secure a place.

1:07:13Matt Roberts: Felix has got something to play for, hasn't he? That's a very interesting match next up.

1:07:19Catherine Whitaker: Orjeliasseem against Mazzetti because they're sort of rivals in terms of trying to get into Turin this year. I think Orjaliac seems quite a bit behind Mazzetti, but if he were to beat him and even go on to win this tournament, he would make up the gap. So, yeah, I think I am probably looking at those names. Djokovic, Orjaliac, Dimonor, probably. Rindiknesh. And Rindiknesh, obviously.

1:07:44Matt Roberts: Medvedev's in there. He's about to play Davidovic for Kina. Impressive from TN. to be I mean he's he's setting a break on Cameron Norrie at the moment to be keeping this up after after reaching the final in in Beijing yeah good on him for keeping going he must be came through the big Mute match in the first round yes

1:08:12Catherine Whitaker: top seed ish Mute

1:08:14Matt Roberts: yeah

1:08:16David Law: there were some amazing it's all up for grabs

1:08:19Matt Roberts: now that Mute is out

1:08:20David Law: If you want to go back and watch some fun, go back and watch those two left-handers against each other. It's so much fun.

1:08:28Matt Roberts: Right. And join us in part three as well once you've done that for a little look ahead to this week in Wuhan, a rarely spotted one week long 1000 event. We are pumped. Join us in part three. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the 14500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most.

1:09:11Matt Roberts: Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.

1:09:19This episode is sponsored by Michael's, your destination for all things birthday parties. We just had Lucky's first birthday, and it was so great to be able to go into Michael's and get everything. Of course, I knew they had craft supplies there, but I didn't realize how expansive their party supplies were. And Michael's really is where you can go to get everything for a party, whether you're planning a kid's birthday or even an adult celebration. They've got over 4 ,500 party supplies, more than 60 different themes, and prices starting at just 99 cents. Plus, they've recently lowered prices on hundreds of items.

1:09:50We found adorable decorations, balloons, everything we needed to pull the party together without making a bunch of different shopping trips. Plus, I always have a good time going to Michael's. I love shopping there. I could just browse the aisles forever. But if you're short on time like I always seem to be, you can also get same-day delivery or buy online and pick up at the store. They even offer free helium inflation on select balloon styles, which is such a lifesaver and it was for our party, truly. So if you've got a birthday coming up or just a celebration, remember Michael's Everything to Celebrate Anything.

1:10:24Visit Michael's in-store or shop online now.

1:10:33Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of the Tennis Podcast, where we look ahead now to Wuhan. Hold the front page. It's a week-long 1 ,000 event that tried to sort of call itself Wuhan-Bulden for a while, or certainly people tried to make Wuhan-Bulden happen because it's such a fast court surface, apparently. Alexander Zverev, get thee to Wuhan where Irina Sabalenka is the three-time defending champion I really associate Wuhan, David, with Irina Sabalenka She won this title in, I'm going to say 2018 and I think off the back of that we started making big, big predictions for her about winning slams in 2019 obviously it took a bit longer, didn't it?

1:11:26Matt Roberts: But yeah, this was where she really, really announced herself, I feel. She's in the top half of the draw with Naomi Osaka, Elena Rabakina, Amanda Renesimova, Emma Adekanu and Jessica Pagula. Shontek is in the bottom half with Jasmine Paolini, Coco Goff and Mira Andreeva. We've got first round matches that include Osaka against Fernandes, Alexandrova Mboko, Kostyuk Mukova and Bencic Vekic I really am excited about Wuhan this week I mean in a sort of conflicted way because I do think tennis just needs to stop just everybody just down tools for a bit but if we are going to carry on I like this draw

1:12:08David Law: Yeah and three times actually Sabalenka won Wuhan including last year and yeah she's just perfectly equipped for it And I do love the fact that she's given up the chance of all the extra points and all the extra money in Beijing, and she's just decided, okay, I'm going to be ready for that one, and whatever follows that with the WCA finals. But you're right. I mean, when you come across the seven-day 1 ,000 event now, and we'll have it with Paris-Bercy still? Is that still a seven-day event?

1:12:45Matt Roberts: I mean Paris-Bercy is hanging on

1:12:48Catherine Whitaker: is it no longer at Bercy I don't know where it is in Paris yes no it's Paris it's Paris Paris somewhere else

1:12:56David Law: Paris Accor Arena when you have these seven day events and we have it with Stuttgart earlier in the year and we have it with Monte Carlo you know you suddenly realise and remember how good they are because you've got that point of comparison yeah we're going to make the most of it

1:13:12Catherine Whitaker: yeah it's that strange quirk with Sabalenka, as you said, three-time defending champion, but two of those are 2018 and 2019 because the event didn't happen for so long for various reasons. And yes, then she won it last year as well. And look, it is a fun draw. It's a great coming together of all the big names. Sabalenka being back is great for the tournament. And then, you know, you just sort of expect there's going to be some big clashes which you want to see. And yeah, I really like a look at this draw.

1:13:47Matt Roberts: No, Dari Kazakina in the draw, she released a really moving statement actually about why she is choosing to shut down her season. Last week we had Alina Svitolina announcing that she was shutting down her season early this week. We've got Kazakina, she said, quote, I'm fine. Words I'm sure we've all heard from many women from many different walks of life knowing they're not fine they're far from fine but they continue breaking themselves a little more each time this is me 2025 has been my I'm fine year I've been far from fine for a long time and truth be told my results and performances show that the fans aren't stupid they can see it too I've kept a lid on my feelings because I don't want to seem like I'm moaning weak or god forbid ungrateful or unappreciative of this amazing life we live as professional tennis players.

1:14:42Matt Roberts: Truth is, I've hit a wall and I can't continue. I need a break, a break from the monotonous daily grind of life on tour, the suitcases, the results, the pressure, the same faces, sorry girls, everything that comes with this life. The schedule is too much, mentally and emotionally, I'm at breaking point and sadly, I'm not alone. Add into the mix the emotional mental stress related to my nationality switch, not being able to see my parents four years now for my father and I, plus the ongoing battles to gain full Australian competition eligibility. It's a lot and there is only so much I can deal with and take as an individual woman all whilst competing with the best female athletes in the world.

1:15:25Matt Roberts: If this makes me weak then so be it I'm weak. However I know I'm strong and I will get stronger by being away, recharging, regrouping and re-energising. It's time I listen to myself for a change, my heart, my mind, my body. 2025 is done for me and like me it's been far from fine. So I'm joining the 2025 Tap Out Club. I will be just fine though and look forward to seeing you in 2026, energised and ready to rock with love, Dasher. Now that should be printed out as a manifesto and put up on the wall in a emergency meeting of the powers that be, quite frankly. And I know she's got, as she's laid out there, she's got specific circumstances, that nationality switch and how draining that must have been on her.

1:16:19Matt Roberts: And as brave as all that has been, what she's taken on, I'm sure it's taken a lot out of her as well. But, you know, we have enough examples of this now that um that something should be done um yeah yeah she is not weak in any way that is the epitome of strength to me is to is is to accept how you feel and do something about it

1:16:48David Law: like that and um and i have enormous admiration for her for for loads of ways and loads of reasons And I just hope she does feel way better in January because, you know, that's all that anybody would want.

1:17:05Matt Roberts: I hope she's going to come out in January and get so much love from the Australian crowd, isn't she? That's going to be awesome. And I really hope she's in a good mental and physical place to be able to enjoy that because I think that's going to be really cool to see. Some other news that we had this week. It dropped, in fact, while we were recording our last podcast. The Hall of Fame nominations are out. Big year for the Hall of Fame. We've got some, I mean, I think there's going to be quite a few big years over the next few because we've got some big names coming into eligibility for the Hall of Fame.

1:17:45Matt Roberts: In the player category, the nominations are Svetlana Kuznetsova, Juan Martin Del Potro and Roger Federer. who I think all will be rubber stamped. And in the contributor category, there are two nominees. The first is Marshall Happer, a very esteemed administrator in the sport. He helped form the Rally Racket Club and influenced professional tennis at the international level, skilled player and lawyer by trade. he has left his mark as a player promoter and tournament director founder of the rally racket club an executive at the usda and administrator of the men's tennis council a predecessor to the atp and the second nominee in the contributor category which billy jean and we are very excited about is the one and only Mary Carillo.

1:18:50Yeah.

1:18:51David Law: Agreed. Yeah. Billie Jean. That's Billie Jean. What a hell yeah. What a great shout. Yeah.

1:18:59Matt Roberts: She'd better get in. She'll get in, right? I don't quite understand how all that works.

1:19:05David Law: If she doesn't, we riot.

1:19:07Matt Roberts: Yeah. If she doesn't, we riot. Exactly. Billie Jean is already rioting. She's just just warming up for a riot she's practicing on next door's dog um and speaking of dogs our mascot for this week's show i did accidentally scroll down a bit too far earlier so i had a little preview of rosie uh and i got very excited about it so i knew a big a big floof was coming Rosie is nominated by Karen Ray. Karen says, I was delighted when my grand dog Rosie moved to New Mexico from Michigan with my daughter, whom I also enjoy having around. That is definitely reflective of how my dad feels about me and Billie Jean.

1:19:56Matt Roberts: Rosie is a two-year-old miniature poodle with two modes, play and cuddle. she greets the day and her friends with a doggy smile on her face picking up new friends everywhere she goes when she can't get someone to throw a ball for her she works on her technique for making a squeaky sandwich by folding her bed or flipping it over with a squeaky toy inside most of all she always seems glad to visit and in spite of her youth exuberance youth and exuberance she is patient and loving with her much older cousin charlie oh there's a picture of them together oh that's adorable oh she is absolutely gorgeous a a miniature poodle of course a great sort of tennis dog breed that is famously what um well no Coco Andrescu is a toy poodle I think but close very close great dogs anyway Billie Jean is half half toy poodle so I'm biased but I'm also right.

1:20:56Matt Roberts: And Rosie is wonderful. So thank you, Karen. And Karen's daughter, she doesn't say her daughter's name, not important. Only the dog's name is important. I respect that, Karen. Hello to our mascots. Hello to Phoebe, Maisie and Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. Let's have some shout outs, Matt.

1:21:22Catherine Whitaker: We start with Koda Farha from Sydney, Australia.

1:21:29Matt Roberts: Hello, Koda.

1:21:30Catherine Whitaker: Hi, Koda. Koda says, if I could change anything in tennis, I'd get rid of let's. I also like the idea of best of three for men and women until the quarters and then best of five for all.

1:21:44Matt Roberts: I love both those proposals. I would sign them off in a heartbeat. I think let's are ludicrous.

1:21:58Matt Roberts: Absolutely ludicrous. Yeah. Oh, you've hit the net, have another go. Why do we... Like, explain it to me.

1:22:13David Law: Not wanting to win something on a lucky bounce.

1:22:19Matt Roberts: so then why don't we do it when it happens in the points

1:22:21Catherine Whitaker: I guess it's so to sort of get the point started off cleanly right you know when they were sort of writing the rules of tennis you sort of let's get into it cleanly let's have a nice clean lovely start

1:22:38Matt Roberts: yes ludicrous

1:22:40Catherine Whitaker: don't you think that would have been important back then I could imagine it being

1:22:46Matt Roberts: yeah I feel like it hasn't been important for more than a century but i'd love to see catherine's rules if she was starting tennis if you if anybody was starting tennis now would you write that rule no you'd be laughed out of town i'm not sure you know about that it's one of those things that does not bother me at all i don't spend much i don't i'm not sitting here getting wound up at let's literally impact my life and when it comes up well it's been presented to me on a plate it's not like every time i see a let happen i'm losing my cool like i can live with it but are you saying they're frigging ludicrous

1:23:30David Law: are you saying therefore you've just had an unbelievable match and you'd be happy for a ball to hit a net dribble over and that's it on a serve loads of loads of matches end on lucky

1:23:41Matt Roberts: net courts just not on the serve no but on the different on the serve match point we've just

1:23:45David Law: to add four and a half hours, boom, dribbles over. Literally don't care.

1:23:50Matt Roberts: We've not even had a rally. Well, that happens all the time. Well, not if you've had a rally. Why is it different on the serve?

1:23:59David Law: Because then you've had a rally.

1:24:00Matt Roberts: Your issue is with luck. Your issue is with luck dictating the outcome of a point. Well, sorry, but sport isn't for you, David. Coda, you're on. Next.

1:24:14Catherine Whitaker: right next next let's see what carrie can spark carrie is our is our next shout out from

1:24:24Matt Roberts: springfield illinois carrie what would you change about tennis well carrie says i'm lost in a post

1:24:33Catherine Whitaker: rafa world i like shiontech and rude rafa's kids as eager said but no one rises to the level of Nadal

1:24:45Matt Roberts: it's quite a thing it's a sorry state of affairs trying to fill a Rafael Nadal shaped hole in your life with Caspar Rude isn't it that is

1:24:54Catherine Whitaker: that's grasping Gary agrees it is

1:25:00David Law: it is one of those though where you've if you've got a favourite sports person or single or anything who stops trying to work out what on earth you do then tough

1:25:16Matt Roberts: good news about those Caspar Roods though yeah someone will come along Carrie they always do in the end

1:25:28Catherine Whitaker: have you tried Alcaraz

1:25:30David Law: like not enough topspin

1:25:36Catherine Whitaker: no clearly yeah

1:25:40Matt Roberts: Thanks, Carrie.

1:25:41Catherine Whitaker: Thanks, Carrie. And finally, we have Richard Higgins.

1:25:48Matt Roberts: Hello, Richard. What's your manifesto?

1:25:50Catherine Whitaker: Well, Richard volunteers at the Wrexham W100 ITF tournament.

1:25:57Matt Roberts: Richard! Go, Richard!

1:25:59Catherine Whitaker: Let's get on.

1:26:00Matt Roberts: Richard better be coming to our show. If you're not, Richard, please buy a ticket.

1:26:09Catherine Whitaker: Richard says, shout out to the excellent Dave Courtine and his team.

1:26:14Matt Roberts: Yes. Co-sign that. That's a good manifesto, Richard. Like Richard Krychek.

1:26:20David Law: Yeah. And can I suggest as well...

1:26:22Matt Roberts: We'll see you on October 22nd.

1:26:24David Law: Yes. Can I also make a shout out for Artifice for Kerry's Rafa under our replacement? Because he's got a similar level of rotations on his forehand.

1:26:36Matt Roberts: Do we know that... Yeah, we don't know that it's the top two. Oh, Carrie's. Well, she's chosen Eger Struntik and Kasparud as her fill-ins.

1:26:45David Law: They're the next ones in, aren't they, for topspin? She's just got a fetish for topspin.

1:26:50Catherine Whitaker: I think they're just Nadal fans, right? They both talk about having Nadal as the sort of obvious idol.

1:26:59Matt Roberts: They're being his kids.

1:27:00David Law: Right, OK. Well, I'm still suggesting Artifis because, you know, you can't go wrong with him, aside from the broken back problem.

1:27:10Matt Roberts: Richard Carey Coder thank you ever so much for being friends with the tennis podcast if you'd like to become a friend the link is in our show notes we have our next live show coming up this week Wednesday this week 8pm we decided on the topic this morning I'm very excited about it it's going to be good 8pm

1:27:30Catherine Whitaker: do you want to give it away it will be an hour because the celebrity traitors starts at 9pm so if you're here if you're here for a short, sharp, on time, no faff live show. This is the one.

1:27:43Matt Roberts: Yeah, it's going to be punchy and faff free. But I'm so glad you said that, Matt.

1:27:50Catherine Whitaker: I did look at my diary and think, oh no, there's a clash. But no, an hour. We can do a live show in an hour.

1:27:57Matt Roberts: It's not a clash.

1:27:57David Law: We can do a live show in an hour. It's just going to be really punchy. Do they not do videotapes in 2025?

1:28:03Matt Roberts: No, that's the beauty of traitors, David. with it's that rare sort of shared TV watching experience. Billie Jean's into it.

1:28:12Catherine Whitaker: And this is our chance to have that because, you know, woe is us. We normally have to watch Traitors during the Australian Open where we can't watch it with the nation.

1:28:21Matt Roberts: This is big for us, David. This is big. It's very big.

1:28:24Catherine Whitaker: Gotcha.

1:28:25Matt Roberts: But not so big that it impinges on our live show plans. Well, it does though because we're having to curtail it. No, we're not. An hour is a completely legitimate length of show. It's going to be great. Yeah, it's going to be great. We are appealing for submissions for our topic on the barge. So if you're a barger, head to the barge to have your say on Wednesday's show. We're going to do a whose career would you rather have? We're going to have couplets of tennis players and we're going to debate whose career we would rather have. Like a sort of Dementiaver or Meschina, Cilic or Henman type of thing.

1:29:12Matt Roberts: I mean, the answer is Cilic, isn't it? So not Cilic and Henman. Well, even Henman won Cilic, didn't he? Yeah, you know, you get the idea. so if you're a friend of the pod head to the barge to submit your couplet for debate on Wednesday's show and if you'd like to become a friend of the pod and get access to the barge add free listening those live shows the tennis relived shows all of that jazz then the link is in our show notes folks we are part of the Athletic Podcast Network we will be back on

1:29:48Catherine Whitaker: Monday after Monday after the Friends show on Wednesday.

1:29:54Matt Roberts: Yeah, Friends Wednesday. But yeah, we're back to Mondays now. Everybody else on Monday. Mondays. Reliable. You know where to find us. Thanks for listening. We'll speak to you then.

1:30:10Your team just added its 67th AI tool and also your 67th security blind spot. The good news? The Vanta agent works like a GRC engineer in the background, finding every app your team uses, scoring the risk, and drafting fixes for you. Vanta is the platform used by over 16 ,000 fast-moving companies like Ramp, Cursor, and Harvey, who are shaping the future with AI and staying ahead of AI risk. Get started at Vanta.com. As a small business owner, you're the CEO, the marketing team, and the customer service rep all at once. I was recently talking to a shop owner who told me their worst nightmare isn't a slow day, it's the vanishing act.

1:30:49It's that moment you're inches away from a deadline and the Wi-Fi just disappears. We've all felt that pit in our stomach when the connection flares up right when it matters most. Your business is only as strong as your connection. AT &T Business is the reliable provider built for that exact brand of hustle, so you can stay focused on the work that builds your legacy. Powered by AT &T Business. Built to work. Get AT &T Business at business.att.com. Thank you.