Live from Wimbledon Day 12 - Sinner, Zverev to clash for title

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1:14Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast live from Wimbledon and presented by Barclays, the official banking partner of Wimbledon. Well, so much for being at risk of hitting the curfew tonight. It is 7pm, our earliest showtime of the fortnight, and both men's singles semifinals are done and dusted. Yannick Sinner heard rumours that people were expecting a five-set classic, maybe even an upset like we saw in Australia, and he decided to laugh in the face of those rumours, David. The real Yannick Sinner showed up on centre court today.

1:50David Law: Yeah, I did think he might. And my word, did we get the real deal today. Everything was there. Everything. He looked fresh. He looked tuned in. He looked like he'd fixed one or two issues with his game. There were a few shonky forehands here and there, but I mean, basically, he was awesome today. And he just looked like the guy that we thought we were going to get a few months ago when he arrived into the French Open. You know, if you think of that incredible run he had in the spring. And then it disappeared, didn't it, in the French in the heat of the day. It was warm today, but it wasn't horrifically hot.

2:36David Law: and he wasn't out there for long enough to make that a consideration. I actually thought Djokovic played pretty well for two sets there. I certainly thought he was better than he was against Sinner last year, and it was a similar scoreline, but I think Sinner was just electrifying today.

2:54Matt Roberts: And we probably shouldn't underestimate that skill, that ability, that sort of champion superpower of just being able to play as well as you need to on the day, right? We've been doubting his level, doubting his form, and I think that's been valid. But he is just a player now that goes, oh, OK, it's Novak Djokovic. I'm in a semi-final. I'm going to need to play better today. Here it is.

3:21Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, and even at 39, having come off a five-hour match, Djokovic, I think, still has that effect on a draw, particularly for Yannick Sinner, who lost to him in this round at a Grand Slam this year. He was never going to take this lightly. And he was just so dialed in. Like everything that has turned Yannick Sinner into a dominant world number one was functioning today. Even the half chances that Djokovic created just got immediately snuffed out, often with a big serve. It was that kind of tennis from Sinner. He was rushing Djokovic again. he was pinning the ball on his baseline sliding across the baseline to defend what Djokovic was throwing at him total poise and self-assuredness about himself and yeah it was it was the kind of performance that made you realize what a miracle Melbourne was for Djokovic right like it was a reminder of what this matchup had looked like for a couple of years before Melbourne you know and Djokovic that night pulled off something that no one can ever take away from him and was one of his all-time great performances and he did it in the most dramatic way in five sets late at night saving what was it 16 of 18 break points looking back now it was yeah it was a one-off performance of total greatness and this was more of a reversion to what we've seen in in the last few years and I have to think that some of the five and a bit hours the other day played some part.

5:00Catherine Whitaker: I didn't think Djokovic was as good today. I thought there were good moments, but I never really felt like he entered that mode of the ball trampolining off his racket and being able to withstand what Sinner had. I thought he was just a little bit off it and that got exposed by a guy who was in his prime, totally on it.

5:27Matt Roberts: I received multiple messages from friends and family, some casual tennis fans, some not, saying they found certainly the last 45 minutes of that quite sad from a Djokovic perspective.

5:42David Law: Yeah, I agree. I was out there throughout the second set. We were sort of sharing the seat that we had. And it's one of those days where the press box is so full, there's not room for everybody. And I went out in the second set and Djokovic was having his best period of the match there. He got to 30 all on the first two service games of Sinner. He got to love 30 on his third service game. And then again, as you said, that's when Sinner found his absolute best stuff when he most needed it to see off the threat. But once they're in that third set, there really was an inevitability about it all. And Djokovic knew it.

6:20David Law: Even in the last point of the match, he didn't really want to win it. Because he just, he'd had enough. And I totally understand that. He couldn't win anymore. And the thing is that you saw today the difference between either one of these two at 24 and 39. You know, Djokovic of 24 is keeping up with Senna today, maybe beating him. Either one of them at 39, that is not fair, really. That is not a fair fight. And it's mind-blowing that Djokovic has even made that a conversation. When you think of the fact that he's... I know they're a little older than him, Nadal and Federer, but his main career rivals and Murray, they're all retired.

7:08David Law: a couple of other of his peers this year stan vavrinka gal monfils they're doing a lap of honor you know and here's novak djokovic getting to all the semi-finals of the grand slams and and beating sinner it's it's incredible what he's achieved but today was yeah it is what you will see the vast majority of times going forwards if he carries on yeah the moment i knew it was

7:33Catherine Whitaker: done for sure was when Djokovic made a joke at his own expense after a really long rally in the third set and he just went 10 years ago maybe he shouted out and like you know it was it was a it was a great quit but you know Djokovic in his true lockdown mode full of belief does not make that yeah you know and yeah this it did feel a bit unfair to be honest so where now for for Novak

8:05Matt Roberts: Djokovic I'm not speculating look he has told us time and time again I'm planning on playing the LA Olympics in 2028 that's why that's why we're on air right now and not waiting for the Djokovic press conference he's in press right now I'm going to be able to get the transcript up and and bring news of what he said but a couple of years ago we'd have been on alert for Djokovic could come into the press conference and mic drop retire couldn't he it's it's look he could and even then I don't don't think we'd necessarily believe him we've heard it before because you know you in the

8:41David Law: moment he'll say I don't know whether I might not be back here next year this might be it and it might be you know at any time he could get an injury that just makes him completely on a unable to play again to that level let's hope that doesn't happen he may just completely lose interest he may have already pre-decided i don't know but everything he said is that he wants to carry on to this point to this next olympics and maybe you're just waiting hoping for another opportunity at the

9:10Catherine Whitaker: miracle that's it i feel like enough has happened this year to for him to probably still feel like there's a chance, a small chance.

9:20Matt Roberts: I guess it's just the resignation that we saw in him today. Does feeling like that on a tennis court, that resigned to defeat in a Wimbledon final, do you think that would chip away at his resolve to continue?

9:36Catherine Whitaker: Maybe a bit, but I think he's felt like that before. I think he felt like that a year ago. I think he felt like that against Alcaraz at the US Open.

9:44Matt Roberts: But now he's getting breaks like Alcaraz being out.

9:46Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, but that's, I think he thinks, well, Alcaraz is out still.

9:51David Law: What if Sinner had lost to Ketsmanovic? Yeah. You know, what if he hadn't have gone five? What if we get another hot day in New York?

9:59Catherine Whitaker: You know, I think there's probably been enough for him to keep thinking that he's got a shot.

10:04Jannik Sinner: So you think he's probably accepted, look, on a good day, I can't beat these guys,

10:10Matt Roberts: but there's enough, there's enough you never knows floating around out there.

10:14David Law: Lightning strike moment with his level.

10:16Matt Roberts: But you think he's prepared to accept now that he doesn't have it to sort of beat them without that wind assistance? Because he did have that. OK, on the night he didn't in Australia. It was an extraordinary performance, but he did at the tournament.

10:33Catherine Whitaker: He played about double the amount of tennis in terms of court time at this year's Wimbledon going into the cinema match compared to in Melbourne. And that was a massive factor. We said it at the time, and I've probably given, you know, in the six months that have passed, the Cine match has stayed with me more than the Djokovic we saw against Mazzetti. But actually, at the time, we all knew that was big. The withdrawal from Mensic was big. And I think today proved that for sure.

11:01David Law: But he's a realist. You know, I think he does make jokes at his own expense, doesn't he? He does say, you know, I can't do what I used to be able to do. it's okay that I can't really I'm 39 and I think he's loving seeing what he can do and I think if you get the odd win he obviously enjoys it enough that's it like I definitely

11:27Catherine Whitaker: think he took a lot from the quarterfinal match yeah you know he's he's had a moment there and he's won the longest ever quarterfinal in Wimbledon history and a fifth set tie break. I even think he took something from the Fonseca match. Yeah, he talked afterwards about how proud he felt of that performance. I think he's ultimately still about trying to win a 25th major, but I do think along the way he is taking satisfaction. I'm not sure it's totally all or nothing.

12:03David Law: It is kind of a version of the lap of honour that I used to talk about because he's getting some love along the way as well. People can't, you can't help but just be in awe of what he's doing at this age and I think he's showing it off.

12:18Jannik Sinner: Does each one of these chip away at your, what residual belief there is that he might pull off 25?

12:25David Law: I think it's less likely than, it's less than 50 % chance to me for sure that he will do that now. I think it's like 20 % chance I think that he would do that. But, you know, I'd probably still give that a roll.

12:41Catherine Whitaker: It would not shock me if we're in Melbourne in January and suddenly he's making his way through the draw again. He's beating everybody, yeah.

12:52Matt Roberts: US Open coming up. When was the last time a man defended the US Open title? long time ago it was Federer when he did the five back-to-back I think that was the last title defense on the men's side of the US Open Alcaraz okay he's saying the the noises out of the Alcaraz camper that they're targeting Cincinnati for the comeback and look it's great to see him hitting tennis balls of any kind with his right with the racket in his right hand

13:22Jannik Sinner: but it's early stages, isn't it? It looks like he's playing mini tennis. Yeah, it's... He's going to have to go some in the next few weeks. Yeah, exactly. So I guess, you know, we're back in a you never know situation in six weeks' time, aren't we? We go again.

13:41Matt Roberts: Yannick Sinner, just thinking back to the 10 days we had of analysing and speculating about why Yannick Sinner might not be quite himself so far in this tournament and all the entirely valid possible explanations of that, the most prominent being the weird and awful and exposing thing that happened to him in Paris, a tournament that he had admittedly centred his whole season around. Like, if that had sent him off track for the whole of the rest of 2026, that would have been understandable, I think. The fact that he's just like last year when he had match points in that epic French Open final and he came back and won Wimbledon.

14:28Matt Roberts: He's doing something similar to that again here. So maybe we shouldn't be surprised, but like it is unreal.

14:36Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, it is. I think, as you say, the difference to last year is that, OK, other than the other than the Dimitrov match, he found a good level at Wimbledon quite quickly. and certainly before the semi-finals, maybe he just needed a rival to come in front of him. We talked about how soft his draw had been really in terms of the ranking of his opponents. It did feel like he did that thing of just raising it all today and the intensity. I don't know how they do that, But great players do have a way of doing that. I think it's threat.

15:19David Law: You can't fake threat. And knowing what you're up against, it's going to heighten you. It sharpens you. Yeah, I think so. The serve is...

15:30Catherine Whitaker: And that has been firing all tournament, to be fair. I mean, that shot has really clicked for him. But it's so good, isn't it? I mean, and again, that reminded me of their, do you remember there was that period where Djokovic didn't break Sinner's serve? For like so, like he was, you know, the best returner of this era and he just couldn't touch Sinner's serve and Sinner's not someone who you would traditionally think of as serve bot. But when he gets in that mood and he backs it up so well with his ground strokes, it's formidable. And the timing of it. You know, big serves when he needs it.

16:06Matt Roberts: Yeah, Sampras-esque.

16:07Jannik Sinner: Are we in for like a 90s style final here, David?

16:12David Law: Oh, that's a good question. Well, the way Zverev was serving today, yeah. I mean, it's possible. I am fascinated though because we've seen a lot of Sinner-Zverev matches this season and Sinner's quite comfortably got hold of Zverev's serve. I do think Zverev is playing at a different level right now though. I think you can see him standing a little taller. You can see what a grand slam title has done for him. And he has improved. He's worked incredibly hard on his game the last year to add to it. And I think that, well, it's absolutely fascinating to see, right, okay, is it going to work then?

16:57David Law: Are you a new guy or have you just been kind of bullying everybody else because you didn't play Sinner? and look he's taking care of everybody everybody put in his way other than Sinner and Alkraus this year so fascinating today's show is brought to you by Vanguard to all the financial advisors listening let's talk bonds for a minute capturing value in fixed income isn't easy bond markets are massive murky and let's be real lots of firms throw a couple of flashy funds your way and call it a day, but not Vanguard. Vanguard bonds are institutional quality. Institutional quality isn't a tagline. It's a commitment to your clients.

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19:28Matt Roberts: So Zverev then. A win over Britain's Arthur Ferry, the world number 114, the wildcard from down the road in Wimbledon, 7-6, 6-2, 6-4. The first set of this was the most competitive set of the day I think it really was fantastic and the tie break ended up not reflecting that at all unfortunately but I don't want that to to colour my memories of those first 12 games because it was a fantastic first set

20:02David Law: yeah for the first set Ferry kind of did to Zverev what he's been doing to everybody else for the last few rounds you know he shocked him he gave him shots that he's just not used to facing. He was able to get to a couple of balls that Zverev always wins the point on. And I think, unless he's playing Sinner Alkraas, somebody with that sort of acceleration, who then has hands at the end of the run. And Verry won a couple of those, and it was... Honestly, I was watching that, and I was thinking, crikey, you know, I wonder if he's going to just discombobulate Zverev a bit here. Because I think Zverev was really quite tight in that first set.

20:41David Law: He admitted it. I didn't really know how to play him in the first set. I've just played Lehechka and I've played Taylor Fritz. People were banging a ball down and hitting him big from the baseline. And that's not what Ferry does. So he just needed to get through that first set. That was the thing. I did think when he went sort of 3-1 up, maybe he might just streak away at that point. But then Ferry broke him back immediately. And I thought, God, this is great to see. You know, no matter what happens, Ferry came out and played well. From the first ball all the way through that first set, he played well.

21:18David Law: But what Zverev did to him for the next two sets was nigh on mean. You know, he just knocked him off the court. And he played so well, I thought, Zverev, for those two sets.

21:32Catherine Whitaker: It feels like we had two mean semifinals today. Like different age categories and different weight categories.

21:39Jannik Sinner: Yes, the handshake photo of Zverev Ferry, it does look unfair. Yeah.

21:46Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, like the noise when Ferry broke back in that first set on centre court was genuinely spine-taining. Yeah, it was electric. It was fantastic. Vicky, who's here today and actually up on the roof with us, said it felt like Mo Farah winning in the World Athletics Championships. ships there was this british matthew's done one of his uh pans and thankfully this this person's not going to heckle us i don't think um you know it's great it was it was really i was so pleased that that ferry showed up like that but zrev was awesome in the tie break and ferry started the tie break poorly a double fault and an error and you just can't afford to give that away against Zverev and Zverev was banging down 137 mile an hour serves and hitting out on the forehand.

22:44Catherine Whitaker: I mean, really going after that shot today, especially as the match went on. And yeah, he was very, very good today. Zverev in sets two and three, once he weathered the early ferry storm and had his serve broken and just resisted all of that, I thought he was very good. I thought there's a version of Zverev in the past that wins this match maybe with a couple more tie breaks. Yeah, more bumps along the way. Or maybe even dropping a set and just does enough to win. But this was a version that was just stamping his authority on it and showing his class. And as David says, the question now is whether he can raise it against Sinner and play in a way that he talks about but hasn't really yet been able to do against Sinner this year.

23:33Catherine Whitaker: Maybe other than one set in Miami where he pushed him, a lot of their matches have been kind of blowouts. So to me, that's the key question going into the final. Can Zverev do what he's been talking about?

23:49Matt Roberts: Watching that performance from Zverev today and frankly all the tennis I've seen of this tournament, And OK, I do think he is loosened and somewhat unlocked and unleashed by winning that Grand Slam in Paris. And I do think he is improved as a player. And he was very keen to point that out in his press conference, you know, when asked about being loose and unleashed. He said, well, yeah, I am, but I'm also just a better player. And I think that's absolutely true. He's delivered on his word to be more aggressive. but he hadn't been past the fourth round here before this year. He hadn't, I don't think, beaten a top 40 player at this tournament before this year.

24:35Matt Roberts: We're talking about a huge leap all of a sudden. Looking at this guy, it suddenly occurs to me how woefully he's underperformed at this tournament up until now.

24:48David Law: Yeah, he will tell you that he was playing not far off this level two years ago and then he got injured against Taylor Fritz. He was two sets to love up against him and he lost that match. I don't think he missed too many tournaments after that. So, I mean, I do take that with a pinch of salt. But he has underperformed at this tournament and I think he's another one of the players and there's been many in history. Richard Krejcik, we're talking about a lot this year because it's his 30th anniversary. He just didn't used to be able to play on grass. he wasn't comfortable on it and then suddenly it clicked maybe it's clicked for Zverev I don't think it's as dramatic as that because well not right now, if we're sitting here on Sunday and he's beating Sinner in the final and Sinner's fully fit then I might revise this because Krycek beat Sampras and Michael Shtick, they were the best grass court players in the world so Zverev's going to play one on Sunday, if he goes and beats him then I would completely think that he he's just suddenly figured it out.

25:55David Law: I think it's more that he's doing what he probably should have been doing a bit more anyway. Just playing way better and utilising this more aggressive stance. And just sort of walking around like a champion rather than just talking about it. And yeah, that makes Sunday fascinating to me. It's a big test for him.

26:21Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I think just the one other point to make on the Wimbledon sort of form and run and everything. He's pointed out a couple of times this tournament that the first round was actually his most dangerous match when he played a big server in blocks and that one did get quite tight at times and blocks had his moments there and on that slick grass, that's when he said he felt the most vulnerable coming into this tournament, that first match. Obviously last year he got beaten by a big server in Rindekanesh in those conditions. And once he got through that, I think he settled and calmed down. And everything that he's been doing, as David says, we've always wondered why is a 6 '6 guy with so much power playing so far behind the baseline a lot of the time?

27:06Catherine Whitaker: I think the adjustment he's made has really helped him on this surface as well to just hit through the ball with much more authority and impose himself. and that serve is an absolute nightmare on every surface, but particularly this one. And there's a great graphic today on the coverage about the width he gets on that serve. And for Ferry, who doesn't have the biggest wingspan, it was a total nightmare. He's almost lobbing him. And he was having to cover like a, I think they showed it was like a six metre distance between his serve down the tee and his serve out wide that Zverev couldn't. And it was almost impossible for Ferry to get anywhere close to it when Zoreroz was finding it.

27:48Catherine Whitaker: So it's all come together. But I do agree with you that it does feel like there's been an underperformance here in the past.

27:56Matt Roberts: In fact, that's probably true for both men's finalists, right? That their biggest test was in the first round. Ketsamanovic for Sinner. Yeah, definitely. That's a rough thing to say for Novak Djokovic, but I think probably true.

28:10David Law: Absolutely.

28:11Matt Roberts: Djokovic, incidentally, has been into press and given a very lengthy press conference, it has to be said, just before we get onto the stuff about himself, he's broken down the sinner serve, what it's like to try and return the sinner serve. He says you cannot attack his serve. You can try to read it, chip it, block it, get it back. It's very unpredictable, great variety, great balance, great pop. He uses his height extremely well. Also, his second serve is very deep in the box. He gets a lot of rotation on it. he can also go for speed he doesn't make many double faults he's just super solid and he backs it up with an aggressive first shot if you play a shorter return you're again on your back foot it's really really tough to play him particularly when he serves like that wow and that and there's

28:59Catherine Whitaker: another interesting thing in there like i would say and that's talking about that's coming from like the greatest returner and he says that's in the past yeah was was the greatest return was

29:10Matt Roberts: and there's another incredible line there's a question here novak this year you seem to be more competitive in a way than last year wrong he says and then the i think the same questioner follows up and says today maybe you were tired what were your feelings about it do you feel that really you can go on and on or not he said i just said you're wrong i don't agree with your opinion i'm always competitive i always give my best of course i'm disappointed i wanted to win wimbledon that's why I'm still pushing myself so hard but I lost to a better player I have to accept it I'm not upset with myself don't think I've done too much wrong just a level or two worse than he is step and a half late he said in every shot simple as that just not sharp enough not reactive enough not balanced enough to play him there's not much I could do on the court and when asked do you intend to come back next year when you're 40 he said I would like to at least one more time let's see

30:10Catherine Whitaker: and one of his last answers in the press conference is about that question you asked basically Catherine does it still remain about winning titles or can you leave a tournament like this with satisfaction from other stuff and he gives a long answer to that one it's his longest answer to the press conference and you can almost feel him weighing it all up he says for 99 % of players this is a very good grand slam result but for me it's good but not good enough but then he talks about enjoying the thrill of the competition and taking something from the battle on court and he's also he's also I think buoyed by how healthy he's been this tournament you know we've seen a lot of grand slams in the past few years where injury has actually taken him out and I think that's it's kind of three slams this year where that hasn't been the story and I think he's buoyed by that and pleased with the way he's kind of working there and feeling.

31:06Catherine Whitaker: So, yeah, like, I mean, a Novak Djokovic press conference quite soon after a loss is often gold, isn't it? And I think there was a lot of good stuff in this one.

31:18Jannik Sinner: Really good stuff. Shall we talk about Arthur Ferry one last time? Got any puns left? No. The well is dry.

31:26David Law: Quite relieved he's at, to be honest.

31:28Jannik Sinner: Arthur Ferry is up to 36 in the live rankings Wow Does he feel like the 36th? How good a player does he feel like to you?

31:41David Law: I mean that is quite jarring isn't it To think that he's suddenly that ranking But then I also felt when he was ranked 114 in the world He was way too low Even before we came into this tournament He's always felt like Well there's a real game there You can see it Watching side on, actually, one thing I wanted to mention is I'd not commentated on these two from our position low down in the corner of the centre court, either one of them in the past. And first of all, just on the Zverev serve, it is a quite awesome sight. I mean, it's terrifying to think what it must be like trying to get that thing back, because it's not just once in a while that he's hitting 130.

32:23Matt Roberts: Would you take the Zverev serve over the centre serve?

32:26David Law: No, because I think Sinners is so devastating in its accuracy into the corners. I think they're kind of interchangeable to me.

32:38Matt Roberts: Zverev kind of looks the most terrifying up close because his stature on the court and the height it's coming down from is just intimidating, isn't it?

32:46David Law: It hasn't, to this point, done the damage to Sinner that Sinners has done to him. I mean, there are also different level returners.

32:55Catherine Whitaker: i think i would also take sinners because it's sinner hitting it do you know what i mean like if if sinner could be the one with zverev serve so you're taking sinner's head yeah basically it's what i'm saying about like coming up with it at the right time like i back sinner to do that even more than i back zverev to do i think zverev serve functionally is maybe more devastating with the height and the width and the bounce and the pace he can get but sinner's very good at all of that as well and i trust him to deliver it in the key moments and just in terms of the way he produces

33:34David Law: the power zverev how smooth it looks like the ball just flies um off the and and the second set like he was putting 137s in frequently throughout the first set just just it doesn't even look like he's having to try to hit it hard um but he was actually winning more points on his second serve that was going down at 122 to 124 because it got all that spin on it and and ferry was clearly trying to crowd the court you know and suddenly the ball almost lobs him because it's coming down from such a height but what i was going to say about ferry is that in the trade from the baseline his his ground strokes stand up i mean that was always so great about that opening set when

34:18Matt Roberts: yeah before Zverev had sort of found his point ending power and was just like putting rallies away when there were more rallies to be had in the match Arthur Ferry was standing up to it so well.

34:33David Law: Backhand to backhand you know and it's blooming hard to take on Zverev to the backhand and he was winning some of those rallies a lot of them. I did think that what would happen though is when Zverev caught one really deep he often got a slightly shorter ball and these days now he just tries to finish the thing he doesn't just rally with you anymore and that's where he's come on so much I think there's a bit of rally tolerance for Ferry to learn there and the other thing is this is grass to me it's a total unknown whether this game has as much impact on the other surfaces I certainly don't think it would on clay I think he can be effective on anything to a degree but I just don't know on a hard court when the ball's bouncing up higher I know it's an extreme with Zverev but he was struggling with some of those high balls I thought so yes I do think it's an inflated ranking totally earned but it is a bit freakish to reach a Wimbledon semi-final but now what he's got the luxury of is being in all the draws where all the points are and I think for the next year certainly he's going to play a lot of players who just don't like his game because it's so different

35:56Catherine Whitaker: It was quite interesting how he was asked in the press conference whether he's going to, I think the phrase was tap into Emera Adekanu and her experience of a breakout and a big rankings jump and he said, well yeah and Vachero

36:11Jannik Sinner: I was thinking of Vachero and that does feel like a comp there suddenly in our agendas every week Valentin Vachero would be singled out as somebody we have to pay attention to Arthur Ferry is going to start popping up in our agendas in the same way isn't he

36:28Catherine Whitaker: and Vachero has done a good job I think of backing up his breakout and he's kept having the odd result not that consistently but enough of the time and I think that's the thing a lot of players have been asked about it impressed this tournament actually is the gap between 20 and 100 all that big and I personally I think that one of the one of the biggest gaps is that ability to sustain it and all that kind of thing I think players around 100 in the world a lot of them can have an edge it's just they need to somehow find it and I think Ferry totally found it this tournament in terms of the grass and being a Brit on this run and playing as a wild card and pressure free like he's not going to have that those circumstances week in week out but he showed that his game's good enough to have got him this tournament have made the run and I think on a quick hard court he could still be very effective and have some results and have enough of those to prop himself up a little bit.

37:34Catherine Whitaker: I agree. I think I don't necessarily think he's week in, week out, 30-ish in the world, but I don't see a reason why he can't stay in the top 60.

37:47Matt Roberts: Do you think this will be his career high ranking?

37:50Catherine Whitaker: No, I think he'll build on it over the next year. So it's all upside, isn't it? Kind of the way the rankings are. I think he can go a bit higher.

37:59Matt Roberts: British number one

38:00Catherine Whitaker: I think it would be his career best result

38:03Matt Roberts: you don't think he's going to come back and win Wimbledon Matt you party pooper

38:07Catherine Whitaker: more than that I don't even think he's going to reach the final

38:12Jannik Sinner: Matthew you're quite quiet tonight the ferry guy I cannot tell you how confident Matthew was that Arthur Ferry was winning this match today so confident he made me like with the sit to pass Djokovic match

38:28Matt Roberts: made me go god he really thinks this totally improbable result is actually going to happen maybe maybe i'm maybe i'm wrong about this but no matthew was just wrong so there we go uh so men's final again we'll have plenty plenty more time to to preview this uh preview show on on sunday before the final we got one ahead of both finals midday on both days on youtube and And then, of course, we can do it in tomorrow evening's show as well after the women's final. But right now, obviously, I'm assuming Yannick Sinner, the fairly heavy favourite. What chance do you give Alexander Zverev of completing the channel slam?

39:14Matt Roberts: The fact that he's even going for this is pretty unreal, I think. It boggles my mind that that's even a thing that people ever do. I mean, not many people, but I just want to go to Mykonos for about six weeks after winning the French Open. The thought of having to go again in another slam three weeks later, my God.

39:37Catherine Whitaker: You're doing a great job.

39:39Jannik Sinner: Yeah, this is so hard, guys. Yeah, what chance do you give Zwera?

39:49Catherine Whitaker: 35.

39:52Matt Roberts: David?

39:53Catherine Whitaker: Maybe 30. somewhere around there I would say.

39:57Matt Roberts: Bigger chance than of Djokovic winning another major? Yes. David?

40:04David Law: Yeah I think I'd probably give him a bit more chance than that. I'm still going to give myself room to think about this over the next day or so. But I do think there is something different in Svev and I feel like in a way this is his one chance to show it. because I think if he doesn't then I won't believe him

40:28Catherine Whitaker: do you think though just being different is enough to win because I think there's a world where he's different and still doesn't win

40:35Matt Roberts: oh I think we're in there I think that's the most likely scenario that's where he plays really well

40:40Catherine Whitaker: I think there's a scenario where he doesn't bring to the core everything he's saying he will and it will look more like their matches definitely but I

40:48Jannik Sinner: think he will play better than we've seen and it's still not be close to enough

40:57Catherine Whitaker: yeah I think he could I think it could be close but I think it's such a big gap to to overcome I mean Sinner's won what eight in a row nine in a row against him something like that and Sinner looked the business today how many did Fritz win in a row yeah but he never looked like Sinner did today

41:16Jannik Sinner: yeah and one of those was Labour Cup they were adding Labour Cup to the head to head suddenly disowned Fritz we were all for it at the time Fritz guy over here and Caboli guy

41:29David Law: not interested

41:30Jannik Sinner: I still need to establish if the tattoo news is real or if that was AI

41:34David Law: which tattoo news is this

41:36Jannik Sinner: there was a Flavio Caboli Instagram story post yesterday announcing apparently breaking the news of a new tattoo of himself celebrating and i'm clinging to the possibility that it might have been ai

41:55David Law: well that's certainly not beyond the realms is it and i think there's some wording on there in italian of like anything is possible or something except for beating arthur ferry obviously um Just quickly going back to Zverev,

42:14Jannik Sinner: as much as I would probably give Sinner 70 % chance in this final, I do think that's a very interesting point you make, David, about.

42:25Matt Roberts: Not that, I think Zverev would tell you, I haven't got anything to prove about not beating Sinner or Alcaraz at the French Open. He would say, you beat who's in front of you. I've beaten them all before. I did it fair and square. I don't have anything to prove.

42:40Jannik Sinner: but I think he would like to prove that he can do it by beating one of them.

42:47David Law: I really do. He wants to prove that he's... I mean, look, he wants to win Wimbledon. Of course he does. But now he's got to play this guy, right? This ain't Flavio Caballi. And if he goes out and gets duffed up again by Sinner, then, as my son might say, owned. You know? And this is when you've just had your big breakthrough. What? You're still getting duffed up by him. So let's see. Let's see what happens. Fascinating.

43:21Catherine Whitaker: He's lost belief quickly in some of their matches, hasn't he? Yes. Sinner has jumped on him. He's gone to pieces. He's gone to pieces.

43:31Jannik Sinner: Madrid.

43:32David Law: Don't think that will happen. No. Because I do think he's playing way better. I think he genuinely believes. The problem is, I think he quite quickly suddenly loses belief when it's Sinner because Sinner does stuff to him off his own serve that I don't think he can quite believe is happening. Yeah. They make him feel really uncomfortable and a bit embarrassed sometimes. You know, like, suddenly you'll be four-loved down. We've seen that several times this season. And you're like, OK, well, this isn't even competitive.

44:06Catherine Whitaker: Yeah.

44:06David Law: And I think he feels a bit embarrassed.

44:08Catherine Whitaker: And he might go onto the court trying to play more aggressively and not be able to because Sinner handcuffs him. We've seen that. We've seen people have plans against Sinner and suddenly the ball's coming at you off both wings at a speed and a depth and a consistency that you just can't handle. This is the Mike Tyson quote, isn't it?

44:30David Law: If he served the last couple of rounds, sort of 75 plus percent i think he i think he would be holding i agree and if he's holding he's in the match you've got a chance yeah yeah okay you've both got the right to to change your

44:48Matt Roberts: mind to reassess over the course of the next uh probably about 40 40 hours something like that until the men's final it's 4 p.m on sunday isn't it 4 p.m women's final tomorrow 4 p.m men's final on Sunday we have our preview shows at midday on both days live here on YouTube not going up as a pod because they go out of date immediately and we are so relieved that our 2023

45:16Jannik Sinner: women's final preview does not exist as a podcast Don't even mention the YouTube version

45:21David Law: We came across it today We have debated at length

45:25Jannik Sinner: whether we can expunge it from the internet Matthew doesn't like it because of the bad audio

45:31Catherine Whitaker: we don't like it because of the bad takes and the bad audio but anyway it only exists on youtube

45:38Jannik Sinner: and who is going back through our youtube archive to find that if you are going back through uh our our worst hits on the youtube archive uh do check out our women's final preview show from last year as well where we made matt roberts broadcast through what turned out to be quite a serious

45:56David Law: illness i had a quick look at that as well earlier and he was sat there eating jelly beans to sort of keep him conscious it's all he could eat yeah like keep his blood sugar up enough to

46:07Catherine Whitaker: stay on air i was i was sick immediately after this show last year i had to run off to the bathroom

46:16Jannik Sinner: it's not a great sign is it and the day somehow went downhill from that broadcast yeah it got worse yeah what a time happy memories folks ai is only as powerful as the platform it's built into

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47:40Jannik Sinner: Some other results from today. Taquito odor, you'll be shocked to hear, is into the men's wheelchair singles final. It wasn't looking quite so sure, though, at 5-2 in the opening set.

47:54Matt Roberts: He ended up beating Martin de la Puente,

47:56Jannik Sinner: who really made a play for the intensity list today. That guy is a bit terrifying, actually, with the intensity that he brings to a tennis court. 7-5, 6-3 for Oda.

48:07Matt Roberts: Only lost three more games after going 5-2 down in the opening set. But once he gets going, Oda, he's a pretty unstoppable force. And again, you'll be shocked to hear that in that final, he will be playing his great rival, Alfie Hewitt, a replay of last year's final. Hewitt had to come back from losing the first set to Gustav Fernandes, ended up winning 6-6-3 in the second and third. So last year's winner against the winner of two years ago. Can Alfie get one over to Quito Oda?

48:40David Law: You never know.

48:42Jannik Sinner: that's what you say when something's really unlikely well I do think it's quite unlikely

48:46David Law: but you know he's the only bloke he can I think yeah

48:50Catherine Whitaker: yeah he that was a battle today that match I know the 6-0 second set but he had to fight hard Alfie this is yeah big difference as well in the vibes Alfie was on court one and the good crowd and really good atmosphere it was a bit of a tougher scene with Oda out on court three that one wasn't particularly well attended so I think the final will be much buzzier

49:21Matt Roberts: that will be on court one?

49:23Catherine Whitaker: yes, I think so

49:24Matt Roberts: brilliant Dida Dehut, again, shocking is into the women's wheelchair singles final she beat Li Xiaohui 6-4, 6-2 and she'll play the top seed Dehut is the second seed she'll play Yui Kimiji, the top seed She beat Wang Jiying 7-6 in the third today. Probably the match of the day. That one, actually. Absolute thriller in the second women's wheelchair singles semifinal. Huge news on the women's doubles front, guys.

49:53Jannik Sinner: Defani. Gabby Dabrowski and Luisa Stefani, Matt and David's dream team, their wish-fulfillment poster girls, are through to Sunday's final.

50:06Matt Roberts: and they haven't dropped a set along the way. We told you. Quite right, yeah. They've clicked into gear. They will be playing Christina Medenovic and Hanyu Jol who won their semi-final a short time ago on court number one. Well, good luck to them. They're going to need it. Exactly.

50:29Jannik Sinner: Cruz Hewitt is into the boys' singles final. People seem to be very excited about that.

50:35David Law: Yes.

50:35Jannik Sinner: Are you David?

50:37David Law: Sure, yeah.

50:39Jannik Sinner: This is the son of Leighton Hewitt, I should say.

50:42David Law: I'll be honest with you. When I've seen him play junior events before, and he's played, I think, probably some ITFs as well. I mean, I don't think I'd ever seen him win a match before. So I just, I assumed he wasn't very good, to be honest with you. And then he's in the finals. So, you know, clearly he's got something. so yeah it's quite interesting isn't it

51:07Jannik Sinner: he's playing another unseeded opponent in the final 16 year old American qualifier Jordan Lee that's what I've got for you people are very excited about Cruz Hewitt

51:18Matt Roberts: am I excited who can say

51:23Jannik Sinner: tomorrow's order of play folks day 13 of Wimbledon 2026 I'm not sure why I'm getting the order of play up I'd say it's probably fairly self-explanatory

51:36Matt Roberts: but here it is anyway we start at 1pm with the gentlemen's doubles final Harry Heliovara, Henry Patton, the top seeds against Marcelo Aravalo going for the double having already won the mixed title with Elena Osterpenko yesterday and his partner Matej Pavic

51:53David Law: and by the way Patton and Heliovara have come back from some incredible positions of deficit in their matches so I'm amazed they've managed to get through they've done work really well they've won three

52:06Catherine Whitaker: deciding set tie breaks and then they won their semi-final in two tie breaks

52:12Matt Roberts: are they going to win tomorrow?

52:15Catherine Whitaker: yes I think they probably will

52:18Matt Roberts: are they going to do it in time for the women's final to start on time? yes sure let's go with that

52:27Jannik Sinner: three hour window right? They are good at doing a faff-free presentation here. Do you know what Wimbledon don't do? Build a friggin' stage. And I know it's probably because of the grass, but I don't care.

52:43David Law: They could if they wanted. They could do a PDF draw, but they don't.

52:48Jannik Sinner: Yeah. It's quite... Because of the stage building.

52:53Catherine Whitaker: In terms of, like, protecting the grass, It's quite interesting how the Zverev serve affects the grass. Have you seen about this? How they've been reluctant to schedule him on centre court in the past, apparently, because his foot causes a sort of trench in the grass, the way he drags it. And you can see it on centre court. It's right there at the service line. Now he's played some matches there. He's leaving a physical imprint because he serves differently for everyone else, the way he drags his foot. And does it so strongly. Yeah, apparently it's a real thing here that the groundsmen are like a little bit sort of, we've got to protect the grass.

53:32Catherine Whitaker: Like Zverev is chopping that thing up.

53:34Matt Roberts: Sort of creating a gutter. There's a joke in there somewhere. I'll leave it. 4pm for the women's singles final tomorrow. The all Czech affair between Linda Nozkova and Karolina Mukova. David went Mukova yesterday. Matt went Nozkova. has anything changed?

53:55Catherine Whitaker: I saw a stat and I've changed my mind. Have you really? Yeah. Go on then. Some of us didn't need to change. Do you know this stat, David? No. Mukava has not lost to a fellow Czech at tour level since Dubai 2020.

54:16David Law: Oh, well, I did know that.

54:18Catherine Whitaker: Six years and she's won ten in a row against the fellow Czechs.

54:22Matt Roberts: I'm a little bit surprised you're so swayed by that stat because I always think sort of country-based geography stats are meaningless. I know, but I think when it's... Like hasn't lost to an American in 12 years.

54:34Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, but I think when it's playing a fellow person, I think those stats are a little bit different. And she's got a win over an Oscar in there as well.

54:41Matt Roberts: Well, that's, you know, head-to-head is important.

54:43Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I think that's going to... I genuinely think that's going to be... Like these two played doubles together at the Olympics. Yeah. They're very good friends, I think. I think there's something in there in terms of not only do they have to handle the occasion tomorrow in each other's games, they have to handle playing each other. And honestly, I'm desperately seeking something to split it because I think it's so even. And I do think that Mukova has shown that she can handle those types of matches. And I could make a case for either player game-wise and either player with the path they've had.

55:24Catherine Whitaker: Neither of them have played a Wimbledon final. Those are different occasions. It's so hard to call, genuinely think that. So I've just been impressed by the way that Mukava has had that record

55:38Matt Roberts: in those sorts of matches. Well, if you're impressed by a stat, then I'm prepared to be impressed by it.

55:44Catherine Whitaker: David's pretty convincing as well.

55:47David Law: How do you think Mookova would get her on against Hon?

55:53Jannik Sinner: What's that? Why are we asking that question?

55:57David Law: Yeah. That's her bestie.

56:00Jannik Sinner: I can only assume, David, that Priscilla Hon is also Linda Nozkova's friend because she is everybody's friend. Can any of them beat Hon? Because she's like besties with all of them. I think people can beat Hon. That would come down to level.

56:11David Law: Somebody beat Hon in Australia on what made it? Yeah, I mean, she hasn't won any slams, David.

56:16Jannik Sinner: People have been beating the horn.

56:16David Law: Apparently Jovic doesn't like her, though. No, I'm joking. OK.

56:22Jannik Sinner: I think the thing I'm, again, like game-wise, I can make a case for everything. I think the thing that tips me fractionally in one direction

56:36Matt Roberts: rather than the other is the fact that Mookavis played a grand slam final before. I know Wimbledon is different, and the stillness, and the walk, and the fact that someone else carries your bag, it is different. But I do still think that counts for something. That slow heartbeat thing from Linda Nozkova, I don't think that has ever been tested even remotely like it will be tomorrow. But I do think she'll handle it, though. I do, too. I don't anticipate an egg laying from Nozkova at all. I'd be pretty shocked, actually, if that happens. But I expect Mookova to play really well. really really well I'd back her to really show up and you've got to back that tennis on grass I think surely Matthew what do you think?

57:27Jannik Sinner: Matthew thinks Mukava can I change my prediction?

57:35Jannik Sinner: and unfortunately the fact that we are unanimous here makes this a bit of a 2023 preview show situation but I can

57:42Catherine Whitaker: We can change again on the preview show tomorrow. Maybe we should cover ourselves. Well, let's cross that bridge. David, can you make your mook of a case as of now? I know we need to save some content for the preview show. Yeah, please do. But I'm interested in your thoughts. She's the best.

58:03David Law: She's awesome. She can do it all. She's ready. She's ready. You know, she's not been injured for ages. And she's just beaten Coco Goff in a third set tie break. I mean, just think about that.

58:20Catherine Whitaker: Is there any danger of a lull from that? I don't think so.

58:25David Law: I mean, maybe she'll be shocked or tired or something. All these things are possible, but I just feel like my conclusion is she's just ready. It's time for this unique skill set to be put to bear on a Grand Slam stage where she lets it all fly. And this is where it's going to happen.

58:51Matt Roberts: I do think there's a minor physical question mark about Mukova because of how she was at the end of the last match and how she was in the press conference. I'm not just gravely concerned.

59:02Catherine Whitaker: Just a slightly sort of, oh, she's a bit spent feeling. I could imagine that.

59:11Matt Roberts: Yeah. I'm just trying to back out of it now because of the Matthew prediction.

59:17Jannik Sinner: Let's save content for tomorrow's preview show. Midday tomorrow here on the Wimbledon roof. Not in this position because it'll be in full sun at midday tomorrow. And nobody wants to see me in that situation, trust me. So we'll be just over there. Somewhere cooler. Yeah.

59:34Matt Roberts: We'll be talking about the women's final, hopefully joined by Matt Futterman. And then we'll be back on Sunday to do the same ahead of the men's final, hopefully joined by Ava Wallace, also of The Athletic. It is that time of the day where we say hello to Phoebe.

59:51David Law: Hello, Phoebe.

59:51Jannik Sinner: And I try not to be distracted by her lovely face and her lovely little paws and her lovely big ears. Matthew has wandered over to the laptop to have a look at Phoebe. That was a lovely little moment. Maybe you just got bored of looking at the camera. Phoebe, we love you. Hope you're staying cool. Billie Jean spent today under a chair. That is the situation.

1:00:14David Law: Sounds like a sensible place to be.

1:00:14Jannik Sinner: Yeah, absolutely. Hello to our mascots, Bodie, Maisie and Roger.

1:00:18Matt Roberts: Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. It is over to Matt for shout outs.

1:00:24Catherine Whitaker: And we have Tiffany Reimer from Minneapolis, Minnesota. Hi, Tiffany.

1:00:30Jannik Sinner: Hello, Tiffany.

1:00:31David Law: I don't know any players called Tiffany. No, nor does Tiffany. Nick Iverson, have you got any? Pam, Mary.

1:00:41Jannik Sinner: Pam is not in the chat tonight. My mum is in the chat. Okay. But no Pam. That's fun.

1:00:48Catherine Whitaker: And Tiffany says, a long time listener and fan. Not sure how long, but definitely when it was just Catherine and David on the mic.

1:00:54Jannik Sinner: Tiffany, that's hardcore.

1:00:56David Law: We have to have Matt between us these days.

1:00:59Catherine Whitaker: I'm always really relieved when people say they're still listening Do you know what I mean? They didn't give up when I came along

1:01:05David Law: Well you don't hear from those ones

1:01:06Jannik Sinner: No that's why I'm relieved Didn't hear one Karen Hashinoff take Because I know they're out there Who's this kid with the Karen Hashinoff predictions?

1:01:16David Law: I wonder if there are a couple of people out there who just ditched us Oh definitely On the spot

1:01:21Jannik Sinner: I honestly don't think there are any I don't want them anyway

1:01:24David Law: I don't want them anyway, they can go I was phased in yeah

1:01:30Catherine Whitaker: were you? yeah no you weren't you were just handed a microphone and said talk yeah but then it wasn't like I was then talking all the time on every show immediately after

1:01:41Jannik Sinner: was it not?

1:01:42Catherine Whitaker: no

1:01:43Jannik Sinner: how soon was it before that was the case?

1:01:46Catherine Whitaker: like mid 2019 okay

1:01:48Jannik Sinner: and then there was a pandemic when we were starting

1:01:50David Law: to get emails saying could we please have Matt on all of them now because we've we've tasted that and we don't want to go back.

1:01:59Catherine Whitaker: Anyway, love you, Tiffany. Yeah, hi, Tiffany. Thanks, Tiffany. And finally, we have Dallas Nelson from West Jordan, Utah.

1:02:10David Law: Amazing.

1:02:11Jannik Sinner: That is a name that only happens in America, isn't it? What a name. It's so cool.

1:02:16Catherine Whitaker: Dallas says, diehard Rafa fan, still watching tennis.

1:02:20Jannik Sinner: Emmy-nominated Rafa.

1:02:21Catherine Whitaker: Yes.

1:02:22Jannik Sinner: Received a press release about that from his team.

1:02:25Catherine Whitaker: Still watching tennis almost every day Even without him Eager and Coco are the favourites in our house Right now Shout out to my Yorkies Dallas says Lucky and Coco Yes, named after Coco Goff

1:02:38Matt Roberts: Oh, who's Lucky named after?

1:02:45Jannik Sinner: Who's sort of famous For being lucky in tennis, David?

1:02:51David Law: Andre Agassi was quite lucky A few times against Pete Sampras as far as I'm concerned.

1:02:57Jannik Sinner: He's in our midst, David. Be careful. Well, you know, just speak the truth.

1:03:02David Law: No, I'm joking.

1:03:04Jannik Sinner: Dallas. I'm going to confidently say we're not going to find a tennis Dallas. I reckon that name is unique and I love it.

1:03:12David Law: Great name.

1:03:14Matt Roberts: Do we know any tennis players from Dallas?

1:03:19David Law: There was a tournament in Dallas.

1:03:20Jannik Sinner: The Dallas Open. Very good, Vicky. Yeah, there is a tournament in Dallas. Yes. Yes, won by Why Am I Driving Us Down This Cul-de-Sac. Who won it this year? Probably Ben Shelton.

1:03:32Matt Roberts: I was going to say, could it have been Shelton?

1:03:34David Law: Yes, he beat Taylor Fritz in the final.

1:03:37Matt Roberts: That sounds like a thing that would have happened in Dallas.

1:03:41David Law: Sebby Sebastian Corder was in the semis, I think.

1:03:44Matt Roberts: Denis Shapovalov won it one year.

1:03:46David Law: The year before, yeah. That's right.

1:03:51I am out of Dallas-related stuff. I've given loads of Dallas there.

1:03:56Matt Roberts: Apparently Blair Henley is from Dallas. There we go. Marvellous. We love Blair. Very well done. And thank you, Swarner, for flagging that we love a Blair mention. And John Isner lives in Dallas.

1:04:12Jannik Sinner: I just said what I saw. Sometimes you don't have to read everything in the chat. Yeah, no, I realise that. That we are where we are.

1:04:19David Law: Nobody knows the Dallas theme tune to sing along with me, folks. you can sing along in the chat if you've ever watched Dallas

1:04:26Jannik Sinner: folks thank you ever so much for joining us tonight live if you did join us live shout out Vicky who's been doing the stage management live for us after frankly quite a disappointing day of tennis somebody was promised five set thrillers and ended up with two straight sets slightly damp squibs but we are very pleased that you were here today Vicky and Hannah

1:04:50Matt Roberts: as well. Shout out Hannah. Thank you everybody that joined us live tonight. Who's that walking past? It's Yannick Sinner.

1:04:57Jannik Sinner: Turn the camera around again. Oh no, he's already got to... He's already done it, Catherine. He's already done it. He was ahead of you. My feed is on a delay.

1:05:04Catherine Whitaker: Everyone's dizzy watching now.

1:05:08David Law: That's what it's like on the roof. John McEnroe walked past earlier. Anna Wintour walked past about 90 seconds before we came on air.

1:05:15Catherine Whitaker: Yes, I told Vicky to keep her eyes peeled because this is the fun exit.

1:05:21Jannik Sinner: Yes, I thought we might see, you know, Benedict Cumberbatch live on the show. Would Matthew have known who Benedict Cumberbatch is?

1:05:28Matt Roberts: No, probably not. OK, well, I'd say that's safely time to call it a night.

1:05:34Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I'll say so. Spain are kicking off.

1:05:37Jannik Sinner: Matt's checked out.

1:05:38Matt Roberts: Thank you, everybody, for joining us tonight, for listening, for watching. We will be back tomorrow at the end of play, whenever that might be. Keep across our socials, subscribe to the newsletter, hit that like and subscribe button on YouTube and make sure you join us for our preview show at the Women's Final at midday tomorrow on our YouTube channel. Thank you ever so much for joining us. We will see you tomorrow.

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