Live from Wimbledon Day 12 - Was this the end for Novak Djokovic?

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1:16Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast live from Wimbledon on day 12 of the Championships, an absolute scorcher of a day here in South West London today and actually one that's still ongoing. If I'm in hushed tones for the next few minutes, it's because there's still a girls doubles match deep into a third set behind us. So if you hear applause, it's not actually for us. It's for the competitors involved in that. Today was, of course, the day that the men's singles final was decided here at Wimbledon. It'll be between Carlos Alcaraz and Yannick Sinner. But today was also the day that we possibly saw the last of Novak Djokovic as a truly competitive force at major tournaments, or maybe the day that we realised that we might actually have seen that long before this fortnight.

2:09Matt Roberts: And that, I think, is where we should start, because all three of us have just come from Novak Djokovic's press conference following his straight sets to feet to Yannick Sinner this afternoon. and heard him say that the reality of his ageing body has hit him like never before. And that while he was physically compromised in the match today, he didn't consider that to be down to bad luck, but he said down to age. He said that playing best of five has been a real struggle for him physically in the last year and a half, that he gets to the latter stage of slams and he feels like he's going into matches with the tank half empty.

2:46Matt Roberts: he also did add that he doesn't intend for today to be the end of his Wimbledon career he said he wants to come back next year to play quote at least one more match but David Matt this all did sound like an admission I think a realisation may be that unless something really out of the ordinary happens and Sinner and Alcoraz go out early maybe others too he hasn't actually got what it takes to win Grand Slams anymore.

3:18David Law: Yeah, I'm mindful that Novak Djokovic in post-match press conferences can say things that he then slightly rose back on. The heat of the moment, the emotion of the moment sometimes take him over. But at the same time, he's very detailed there, isn't he, about how he feels during the course of a Grand Slam now and that it is different to how it used to be. he also did take that heavy fall a couple of days ago that perhaps contributed to how he was feeling out there but he he is pointing towards a wider problem and a wider issue of what age is doing to his body and how it's leaving him short energy wise when it matters most his body is given way at times as well um i i think there has to be a big question mark as to whether he really wants to put in the grind over the summer and go to New York.

4:12David Law: I wonder about that. Because everything this year has felt like it was about Wimbledon. And he's had a tough experience today. I said yesterday if he takes a shellacking in this match, and my word, did he take one. He had a little brief respite in the third set, but that felt like a little blip for Sinner. I thought that that might well make him think, I don't know whether I want to do this anymore. I don't know whether I can do this anymore. And I still feel that the kind of lap of honour, the circuit of goodbye that I've been kind of advocating really for the last year might be a good thing for him to do, might well end up being what he does do.

4:59David Law: But I think it is probably over now for him as a competitive force at Grand Slams for winning them. I do think that.

5:07Catherine Whitaker: and I think it's for two big reasons isn't it because obviously there's the the way his body keeps sort of failing him as as he said in that press conference and as we've just talked about for the last six slams by my maths he's been compromised by injury in some way but the other thing which he did point to a little bit in the press conference as well is that Sinu and Alcaraz are there. You know, like, if they weren't there, I do still think he would be able to win slams. He's got to the semis of them all this year. He'd beaten Alcaraz at one of them, but again, that was in his body, then failed him.

5:48Catherine Whitaker: But like he said, I'm getting to the end of slams and my tank is empty. These guys are fit, they're fast, and he's doing absolutely everything he can to take care of his own body. He stressed that a number of times, that he still feels like he's working as hard as absolutely anyone on tour in terms of what he's putting in to make sure he's got as much as he's got. But it's just not enough to be able to keep up with those two in their prime. And it's taking its toll on him so that when he does get to play them, he's kind of left a shadow of his self. And yeah, I've felt this for a little while, but I've not heard him articulate it quite like that before.

6:31Catherine Whitaker: and that was a real moment.

6:33Matt Roberts: Yeah, it was a real moment. I mean, just to give you an indicator of what the atmosphere was like in that press conference room, Carlos Alcaraz came in just before Djokovic. He was actually supposed to be after, but Djokovic was delayed, as he always is, and Carlos Alcaraz, being the hopeful guy that he is, came in early to kind of fill the gap. And Carlos Alcaraz is a two-time defending champion. His press conferences are very well attended. He's just reached the final. like he'd expect quite a busy room but he walked in the room and sort of went like that and went wow like he was taken aback by how many people were in there and I think also just what the the vibe was in there there were a lot of people with their laptops out ready to write you know potential retirement on the spot story and that's obviously not not the story and yet it does feel like a bit of a version of that story because those lines about I don't intend for this to be my last Wimbledon I'd like to come back and play at least one more match it felt very farewell Tory to me and you've you've always called that David I've always thought not doubted you on that but just thought god a year is a long time to be saying goodbye all the time and for somebody as great is him to feel uncompetitive and experience moments like today a year feels like a long time to be going through that but it does sound to me david like you were right and that that's what

8:04David Law: he intends i mean we'll wait and see i still think it is his best chance of being competitive really because i think that what what he needs now probably is an end point in his mind because he can't keep going on like this I don't think working as hard as he is without knowing without feeling confident that there'll be results at the end of it because this must throw in throw it into doubt this is the one this is the one where he was coming in without injury he felt fresh it's his surface he's playing sinner's side of the draw sinner's never reached the final here and it all looked good really i mean obviously we still don't know what would have happened if he hadn't taken that fall but i think that that might be covering up the wider point here i just think if if he were to announce next year as being his last he could focus on that then he could try to make himself ultra competitive it might be easier to to run you know it's like when you've gone a long run and you know there's a finish line there if you just just focus on that last bit you can get there um that's not to say that i think he will win another grand slam i actually don't now having seen this today um but i think he could still get some good wins some big wins some runs and more importantly for him i think he would he would then get the chance to be absolutely lauded wherever he went and i think i think he craves that and i understand it give because he spent a career not getting that in not to the way he wanted anyway yeah and it was quite

9:40Catherine Whitaker: a low-key departure from centre court, wasn't it? Certainly in comparison to his one in Paris, when I know that he'd really acquitted himself so well that night and he'd felt the appreciation during the match. I think he was taking a moment to sort of give it back at Roland Garros. But here he just, you know, he waved, but he just left the court without any real fanfare. I don't know, like if I had to say right now, I don't know why I'm saying this, But if I had to say right now, I'd probably say that he might retire at Wimbledon next year. That feels possible to me right now. And in terms of that energy in the room that you describe, I mean, it literally was standing room only.

10:26Catherine Whitaker: I know that because I was standing.

10:31Catherine Whitaker: And, you know, you said that, you know, the kind of journalists, they're ready for that sort of retirement story. And it's not a retirement story. But the thing is, if we're writing the Novak Djokovic is no longer competitive at majors story, that essentially is it, isn't it? Because that is Novak Djokovic. Like, you know, he's a tennis player, first and foremost, but really he's a tennis player that wins the biggest titles and competes for them. And yes, like maybe he could get a quarterfinal run or semifinal run again, potentially. but even that feels tricky.

11:11Matt Roberts: He's had three of those this year, and look, they've been good. There have been moments, but is that enough to sustain him for another year? Yeah.

11:21Catherine Whitaker: Doesn't sound like it. And I think in hindsight, maybe the Sinner performance at Roland Garros in that semi-final there was closer to the sort of moment that we were talking about yesterday, David, in terms of like, he comes out, he plays well, he's dangerous it was night session, it was his conditions, he played so well that night I think the straight sets nature of the win covers up the reality of just how good and how close Djokovic was to Sinnoh in that match but that might have been the last the last moment

11:56Matt Roberts: Yeah, it was a completely different match to today Today was bizarre almost, yeah it was awkward it was awkward though I think it wasn't helped by the fact that it was second on and it was such a hot day and Djokovic just wasn't able to give the crowd anything to get their teeth into like his body language was so tired and sort of kind of beyond flat he just he looked old out there and I do find it interesting that he it would have been so easy and understandable for him to put this down to the injury that he sustained in the quarter finals and the fact that he's not because that clearly was a factor in hampering his movement today the fact that he's not and he's being so truthful and so realistic about the fact that that that isn't a factor in isolation that in itself the fact that he's been unable to recover from that the fact that he sustained it in the first place and that it did the damage to him that it did that is all due to the wider picture of aging the fact that he's being that realistic about it in a sport where being deluded being the right kind of deluded is such a crucial crucial element to the the mental game does indicate to me that this this has been in his mind since before this tournament this is almost confirmation of a theory that has been percolating yeah because i think this was the one tournament

13:25David Law: where maybe he could defy the theory and defy the evidence and honestly when he came into his pre-tournament press conference I was very convinced by him and I think he was convinced by himself he felt fresh and energetic and as the week's gone on that's been less the case and today I agree with you he did look old and I'm afraid somebody like Yannick Sinner exposes that he was awesome today I don't know what happened in the third set when he was when he was 30 love up and then he suddenly lost about goodness knows how many points in a row and went 3-0 down at the start of the third set but even then we were watching Catherine and both felt that at 3-1 it's right in the balance, even though he's 3-1 down, it's right in the balance who wins this set it still felt like Sin is likely to win it and the way he beat Djokovic was just like watching vintage Djokovic beating everybody else and there was no not a flicker of an answer for Djokovic and that you know maybe comes certainly contributed to by the the injury but and I and yes it was me who said yesterday that I thought he would rattle Sinner and come out firing and and at no point did he rattle Sinner and he was a breakdown 3-1 within minutes um and it was Sinner who was rocking him it was I've watched a lot of aging boxers run into a younger version and get stopped and you suddenly see them age before your eyes and tennis is probably the most the closest thing to that it's without the violence but it's one-on-one and there's nowhere to hide there's no help from teammates you can't sub anybody in you're exposed out there and I did feel for Novak

15:10Matt Roberts: Djokovic in that way did you share Matt's view that it could be here next year the scene of his

15:15David Law: actual retirement I think that makes a lot of sense when I think what I've just said about Now, I'm trying to get inside Novak Djokovic's head and think, how do I get motivated for the US Open this year, now?

15:30Matt Roberts: Mixed doubles with Olga Danilovic?

15:32David Law: Maybe. First four. Maybe not worrying about it and just enjoying yourself. I don't know. He's not had quite the history there that he's had here. I could see him wanting to play the Australian Open again because of all of his history there. but the thought of him carrying on in the second part of next year after Wimbledon, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense, what you say.

15:58Matt Roberts: Do you see him, this farewell tour that you're envisaging for Novak Djokovic, how many events do you think he'll play beyond the majors?

16:08David Law: I mean, I could imagine him certainly playing, I don't know, a Madrid or a Rome, or something like that, a Rome maybe. I know he didn't play there this year, but he's got a great history with that tournament. Certainly the Australian Open, something to get himself ready for it. Maybe something in the Sunshine Double, I don't know. Maybe I'm over-egging it, maybe he's not as bothered. But I think he's going to want to have his... It's really hard to retire. It's really hard to know how to do it. We've seen Murray and Serena and Federer and Nadal all go through it recently. and they've all been very different, so very personal thing.

16:49Matt Roberts: And they do do ceremonies well here. Bring back Sue Barker again?

16:55Catherine Whitaker: Always.

16:58Matt Roberts: Shall we just talk about Yannick Sinner a little bit more? Has anybody got any more superlatives to throw into the mix for Yannick Sinner today?

17:09Catherine Whitaker: I've got a stat.

17:10Matt Roberts: Yes, please.

17:11Catherine Whitaker: I could try one of those. second youngest man in the Open era to reach all four Grand Slam finals. When it was put to him in the Encore interview, he said he was the fifth person. And I immediately went, surely there's been more than that since 1995. And he read out the big four and then Yannick Sinner. And I was like, yes, Alcrest hasn't done it yet. Of course, he hasn't reached the Australian Open final yet.

17:34Matt Roberts: Not even semis, has he?

17:36Catherine Whitaker: No. So really, Sinner, it's a big moment, I think, reaching this on grass.

17:44Matt Roberts: He hasn't really had any youngest stats, has he? Like Alcaraz has been the one having all the youngest to do a thing stats.

17:51Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, and suddenly if Sinner were to win the title on Sunday, both he and Alcaraz would be one away from completing the career slam. And obviously Alcaraz would get that shot first in Australia, but that would be a fun narrative next year. But he was awesome. I mean, he was absolutely brilliant. hit the ball just as well as he had against Ben Shelton, I think, when we were really impressed with how he was striking the ball with such conviction.

18:19David Law: And he was saying he was better than that today. He said, I was moving better today. I'm thinking, oh my God, poor Ben Shelton.

18:30Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, he's brilliant.

18:34Catherine Whitaker: It was such a non-match.

18:36Matt Roberts: Yeah, I know. The thing is, what gets me is that any time you have a doubt about it,

18:42David Law: whenever I think, oh, yeah, but he hasn't done it on clay yet, or he hasn't done it at Wimbledon yet, or he's just had a fall, or he's just sacked his physical trainer and his physio, any time you have a doubt about him, he just sort of swats it aside like a fly, as if to say, don't be ridiculous. Of course there's nothing wrong with it.

19:00Matt Roberts: Because if you actually stack up, you know, the stuff that's happened to him off the court, we were talking about this with Itamar earlier, weren't we, our colleague, and he's had what, if you wrote down the list of stuff that sort of happened around him off the court, if you wrote that down pertaining to another play, you'd think that's pretty chaotic. You know, obviously there's the ban and that whole situation, but there was the way he handled sacking those trainers that were implicated in the positive test. Then there's what's happened with his new physical training team that he's got rid of on the eve of Wimbledon.

19:39Matt Roberts: There's the random classical music single with Andrea Bocelli. I think that is quite chaotic behaviour.

19:46David Law: He seems to take it all in his stride.

19:48Matt Roberts: Yeah, there's, you know, the fall. OK, anybody can fall. But, like, these are things. And yet he's the most unchaotic, disciplined, straight as an arrow guy on the tennis court. He's totally unflappable, except for that one game where he drops serve from 30 love up and his forehand just deserted him today. It was almost as if he was trying to remind us all that he is human, after all. And he said in his on-court interview, didn't he, that he surprised himself with how well he's learnt to move on grass. He said, I found it really hard when I first stepped foot on this service. I didn't feel comfortable at all.

20:32Matt Roberts: And I think it is very easy for us to go, oh, well, these guys are just brilliant, aren't they? Like, obviously they can do all this stuff, but they can't just do it. They just work incredibly hard at it whilst also fitting in forays into classical music.

20:49Catherine Whitaker: And on grass in particular, you get such little time to be able to learn to do it. So, you know, like if he'd had the amount of time on grass that he's had on, for example, clay, he probably would have got there in a couple of seasons rather than maybe four or five seasons. But, oh, he's here now.

21:09Matt Roberts: They'd all be playing like Tatiana Maria if there was a long grass court season and everybody had time to really craft a bespoke grass court game.

21:19Catherine Whitaker: I don't think Yannick Sinner would be.

21:22Matt Roberts: There'd be a bit more Tatiana Maria in his baseline game, maybe.

21:27Catherine Whitaker: Well, Alcraz was just asked in the Spanish portion of his press conference what shot he would take from Sina and what shot he thought that Sina would take from him. And he said he thinks that Sina would take, as toque, my touch. And he said the slice, the drop shots and all that kind of stuff. And yes, that is an element of his game that, look, it's improved. It's definitely got better. He's definitely added it to his arsenal. but it is an area where it feels like Alquez has a big advantage over him.

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23:40Matt Roberts: Okay, let's talk about Carlos Alcaraz. Four sets for him over Taylor Fritz today. 6-4, 5-7, 6-3, 7-6, won the last four points of the match from two set points down to take it into a fifth, pretty heartbreaking way for it to end for Taylor Fritz. Let's start talking about this by discovering what Alcraz's answer was in Spanish to what would you take of Yannick Sinners because I suspect a year ago the answer would have been the serve and I suspect he didn't say the serve today because I think he probably wants to stick with his own serve.

24:15Catherine Whitaker: because he's a serve bar now or he is like he can be like halfway through a tournament you're going to tell me

24:21Matt Roberts: he said the serve now

24:21Catherine Whitaker: he said the backhand yeah he said he thinks

24:26David Law: I mean you have to say something don't you you can't say nothing really

24:30Catherine Whitaker: I think Holger Runa would potentially say nothing I'm happy with all of my own stuff I'm pretty sure that question got asked to Holger Runa last year two years ago when he was going to play Alcaraz yeah and he genuinely did struggle he was like I'm really pleased with my game should we ask again?

24:50Matt Roberts: take his brain Holger take someone else's brain anyone's

24:55Catherine Whitaker: the thing is though serve bot Alcaraz a little bit boring

25:03Matt Roberts: yeah I don't want to piss on the bonfire of today but that match was really dull

25:10Catherine Whitaker: there was four sets four games went to Deuce and people who listen to this pod will know I love Deuce, I love mini battles within a match.

25:20Matt Roberts: I love Deuce on a t-shirt

25:22Catherine Whitaker: We've basically got none of them like the breaks were you know, when they came they were then backed up and the sets were over. Really fun fourth set tie break, it went from 4-1 Alcarez 4-6 Fritz Fritz up, two set points and Alcarez came back at him and won it 8-6, an absolutely fantastic point to save one of the set points and stop it going into a fifth but like even then a little bit was of me was like well he's already two sets to one up Alcres doesn't lose in fifth sets like he's going to win this match and absolutely the serve bot element is you know is was the next development in his game and it's it's great for Alcres that he's developed it and he's still he still sprinkles these matches with Stardust and he serve and volleys or he plays those drop shots or he injects pace.

26:14Catherine Whitaker: He's still the most exciting player in the world. It's just, I quite liked it when he was addicted to the drama. And the thing is...

26:23Matt Roberts: Bring back Bertic.

26:25Catherine Whitaker: Right, well, the thing is Sinner, at least in the finals, the one guy who even if Alcaraz is, I think, playing the absolute best can live with him. And I can't believe we get to see Alcaraz Sinner again. I feel like I'm still recovering from the last one. But I can't wait for Sunday.

26:44Matt Roberts: You, David, have always said that the next progression for Carlos Alcaraz is to be a bit more boring. Yeah.

26:52David Law: Be careful what you wish for. It's quite a shock to the system when it happens because it happens in the middle of a tournament. It's not like... I mean, Yannick Sinner is just always like that. He just destroys you. Simple as that. There's no drama. It just goes and takes you apart. Alcaraz doesn't. I mean, Alcaraz against Fabio Fanini. I reckon Alcaraz loses to half the draw with that performance.

27:17Matt Roberts: But he wouldn't do that performance against someone that's not Fabio Fanini. Quite possibly.

27:23David Law: Although I do think first rounds at Wimbledon, I mean, that's two in a row where he's just looked super nervous. You get to today and he did not lose a single serve. point on his first serve in that first set and it was just raining aces and he's picking out the corners and he's hitting them a lot of them 135 miles an hour i mean it was it's quite mind-blowing what he's doing fritz fritz sort of wanted it to be one of those battles because he's got a good first serve and a great first shot behind it and and i and the problem for him was he lost his first he lost his serve in the first game of the match and I mean he was right in front of me when he did that and he turned around and just went oh no you know just kind of the one thing I didn't need to do was that because the set's gone and now Kras just comes straight out and serves a love service game and just the three of them were unreturnable serves it was just awesome and I mean yes I suppose it is a bit boring compared to what we used to I mean I'm a 90s boy I loved it.

28:32David Law: I just love watching him deliver those sort of serves and shots. So I'm less bothered by it probably. But I am fascinated to see whether he can keep it up and the adjustments he then has to make when it doesn't work. Because it's not like watching Sampras. Sampras used to be like that all the time. That was his game. For Alcraz, it's a nice pleasant surprise for him. but no he did look super I mean the big surprise to me is that he ended up losing the second set and I think it's great credit to Fritz that he actually dug in and got his serve going and and he very clearly decided if I get a racket on the ball and get it back deep onto his baseline I've then got to hit the living daylights out of it and and not not try to rally I've got to go for the winner and he took his chance.

29:24Matt Roberts: Fritz gave a great press conference afterwards he's box office in press conference, he's kind of unmissable win or lose because of the way he breaks down the game for you and he did an incredible breakdown analysis of Carlos Alcaraz's game which we'll talk about in a moment but in terms of his own the impression I got is that while he gave tremendous credit to Carlos Alcaraz he doesn't think he's that far away is he deluded well look

29:55David Law: there was that genuine question Matthew you know I referred in commentary to the press conference answer that Fritz gave that day before about if I play like I did in the first two sets against Hachinov there's nothing anybody can do and I mean the thing is what he's not factoring in there is the magic dust of Carlos Alkraus every time Alkraus drop shot at him, brought him forwards. He looked lumbering because it's not a natural strength of his game. He's worked incredibly hard at it to reduce the weakness. But he still looks like he doesn't know what the heck to do when he gets up there. And Alcraz just exploited that.

30:39David Law: Look, he did get he got set points to take it into a fifth. That's blooming good going. I didn't ever think he would win.

30:49Catherine Whitaker: I think for tennis players and, you know, Taylor Fritz, he's ranked really high. And it kind of goes to that thing that Federer said at that speech he gave where, like, you know, he won, what, 80-something percent of his matches, but he won 50-something percent of the points. Like, the margins are small and particularly on grass. And yet when it just keeps happening time and time again, you see the big picture and he is far away. You know, like the way he got beaten pretty easily by Anik Sinner in the US Open final. The way he's ever beaten Novak Djokovic, has he? And, you know, he loses in four today to Alcaraz.

31:31Catherine Whitaker: And like that accumulation over time sort of shows you that he's quite far away. Even if like within every little moment, he's maybe not miles off it. It's maybe a bit like the sort of reality that Novak Djokovic has felt today. If you look at his season, semifinals of all the majors, you think, well, he's competitive. He could win them. But actually, if you take a step back, have we ever actually thought he was going to win one of those majors this year? Because of the guys in front of him, because of the injuries he's got, the big picture is he's not that close. And I think it's that for Fritz.

32:05Catherine Whitaker: In the moment, he maybe feels like he's not that close, but the same thing keeps happening. And these two are better. Djokovic said it in his press conference, didn't he? you said they're levels above everyone else Sinner and Alcaraz

32:19Matt Roberts: My question to Taylor Fritz was going to be about what you said about when you get two sets to one down against Carlos Alcaraz or whatever stage of the match when you lose two sets to Carlos Alcaraz does everyone's heart just sink because the locker room knows his best of five set well his five set record like oh it's over and he I put in the question, I assume, I said, obviously Carlos has this incredible five-set record. I assume the locker room is aware of that. And he said, I didn't know. He said, he claimed that he doesn't know about it. I didn't, he could have meant I don't know the numbers, like I don't know the specific record.

33:06Matt Roberts: I do think he would have been honest. He does strike me as that kind of guy. But I also do find it hard to believe that the locker room doesn't know generally his five set records, I think.

33:21Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, as you say, the specifics maybe. But like also that surprised me of Fritz because Fritz is, I don't know, it strikes me that he's really up on people's stats and that kind of thing.

33:38Matt Roberts: He gave some incredible analysis of Carlos Alcaraz's game and an element of it that is given too little credit, I think, and probably by us included, because we always talk about his reliance or have in the past talked about his reliance on Juan Carlos Ferreiro and how sometimes when it's not going well for him, he can sort of look at them like, tell me what to do, or look at a bit of a loss or look overly dependent on them for input. and Taylor Fritz said today that the thing to him that is most impressive about Carlos Alcaraz is the adjustment he makes in matches, the tactical adjustments and he was asked to give an example of that and he said, OK, well, for the first two sets, he felt that Taylor Fritz said, he said, I don't know what the numbers were, but I felt like I was getting a...

34:34Catherine Whitaker: 15 minutes I was drinking put your way to the exit gates and make sure you take all your belongings with you we hope you've enjoyed your day here at Wimbledon and wish you a pleasant and safe journey home thank you

34:50Matt Roberts: they should give us a warning shouldn't they

34:54Catherine Whitaker: some sort of alarm

34:56Matt Roberts: it's amazing how Johnny Perkins is never mid gulp

34:59Catherine Whitaker: he's always ready It's like the ground staff here on the outside courts. Have you ever noticed this? There's like a numbering system for the ground staff. If you're on an outside court, you might just randomly see the number four. And it's something to do with their level of preparedness that they need to be in terms of weather coming and that kind of thing. I need a little numbering system over there so I know when Johnny's coming.

35:23David Law: He's getting high maintenance, isn't he?

35:27Matt Roberts: What was I saying? The tactical adjustments that Carlos Alcaraz makes mid-match, he said, for the first two sets, Taylor Fritz, obviously particularly the second set that he won, he felt like he was getting a good look on the Alcaraz second serve return. He felt like he was getting good aggressive hits in on the second serve return. And then he said from the third set onwards, he started really drastically mixing up his second serves, sometimes going like 120 almost first serve speeds on the second serve and sometimes going for really half pace kickers out wide huge variety and he said it made it pretty impossible for me to from that point to be aggressive off the return because I just didn't know what was coming he said look it's a risky strategy because you're more likely to double fault playing like that but it's incredibly effective if you're as good at as as carlos alcaraz and that's what alcaraz always does

36:25David Law: is he goes for it he doesn't question himself he just feels something and adapts accordingly and and yeah i i i loved the way he broke that down and and said if you if you do something like he said i i don't beat myself up because if i'd have made one or two of the adjustments that i feel in hindsight i should have made he would then just adjust something as well and the next thing you know there's no it was pointless um i i asked him to kind of given that he's played sinner and now big tournaments in the last year us open final wimbledon semi-final i asked him to sort of compare and contrast what it's like trying to take them on and and he it seemed to me that he he feels more comfortable playing against Sinner.

37:12David Law: I know he got really outplayed in that US Open final, but he said before it that I like his ball. And I think that that's the difference. It might be too good for him, but it's kind of the same every time. It's straight arrows, line, cross-court, whatever it might be. Whereas with Alcraz, there's more loop on it. And then it suddenly springs off the surface and it's going away from me. And then his ability to hit these drop shots or suddenly serve and volley out of nowhere, and he's really good at it. He says, you don't know what's coming next. You can't prepare for it. So, fascinating. And actually, huge credit to Fritz for being prepared to take these sort of questions when he's just had the disappointment of a loss.

37:58David Law: He's really good with everybody, I think, post-match. and I do find that fourth set the fact that he got it into the tie break and that he was 4-1 down in that tie break and he won five points in a row from there I think that's he should take great heart from that the two set points he had I don't he did say I had a couple of good looks but I don't think he should regret too much really there I think Alkraus did Alkraus things at that point

38:26Matt Roberts: Will Taylor Fritz win a slam? I should specify singles because obviously there's US Open mixed doubles

38:34Catherine Whitaker: he really backs himself in that mixed doubles as we know

38:38David Law: you'd need one of these two to not be there I think, that's the point if these two something happens a Botick comes along or Sinner gets injured all of these things are possible at some point the chances are they're both going to get injured or they're both going to have a bad loss. A public's going to come along. So, you know, who's going to be there to pick up the pieces? Fritz has to be in the pack there. I think there's been a couple of times where he's let himself down in those situations. You know, he'll point to the Australian Open loss that he had against Gell-Montfeest. That was a tough one for him.

39:16David Law: There's been a couple of those. But he needs to be right in there when one of those situations happens because I think you get either of those two in the semi-finals, I don't think his chances don't look good.

39:30Catherine Whitaker: And that's the problem for him. Sinner and Alcaraz are pack-huntering these things now. I think going back to the start of last year, start of 2024, when they've both been in the draw at a tournament, there's only been one event where either of them hasn't won it, and that was Madrid last year. It was weird, wasn't it? Madrid. it was really weird you know and they'll have won the last six slams between them now yes one of them might lose early or might have something going on but for both of them it's becoming very very tough and I just don't see that Fritz can do much more than he's already doing there are certain players around who I look at and think okay maybe there's more to come

40:20Matt Roberts: And he also needs to maintain what he's currently doing so that he is in position. Yes, very good point. Look at Medvedev, the way he's declined. He can't work any harder, can he? He hasn't even been able to hold the ground that he had as the best of the rest.

40:35Catherine Whitaker: And even this season we saw him struggling to maintain it prior to the grass.

40:42Matt Roberts: He's four or five years older than those two.

40:44Catherine Whitaker: I think it is going to be interesting to see how the US Open plays out with... Mixed doubles? With Sinou and Alcaraz. Because traditionally the US Open has been the one where other players have got in there. Are you going to mention Bertic again? No, I'm going to mention Del Potro, Cilic, Nishikori getting to the final, team. Even in the big four era...

41:11Matt Roberts: Wawrinka.

41:11Catherine Whitaker: Wawrinka, right? Even in that era, that was the one that they didn't have on lockdown. And it's just going to be interesting to see whether that happens with Sinner and Alcaraz as well. Kevin Anderson. Right, exactly. All these people reached finals, had big moments there. Whereas, you know, Alcaraz has shown French Open Wimbledon. He's doing incredible things in the summer. Fresh start of the season on a hard court. That's got Yannick Sinner's name written all over it. end of the season, when it's, you know, conditions in New York, like with the American crowd, like maybe Fritz can get one of those.

41:49Catherine Whitaker: That's, I know Pam was speaking quite, you know, quite sort of strongly that she thinks an American from this generation is going to win a slam. And I don't know, we didn't ask her, but I would have thought that she's thinking there of a US Open. So we'll see, but I wouldn't be predicting it. I wouldn't be predicting Taylor Fritz to win a slam.

42:09Matt Roberts: Tough day for me. I've just lost Hannah as a friend because I've put Kevin Anderson in the same sentence as Juan Martín del Potro. She is not happy. You deserve that. I do. Although we like Kevin Anderson. I hold my hands up. So Alcaraz against Senna, we will have plenty of opportunity to preview this match over the next 36 hours. We'll talk about it. I'm sure tomorrow at the end of our show, following the women's final, we will have a dedicated preview show. We've got one for both finals. We've got one midday tomorrow for the women's final. We've got one midday on Sunday for the men's final. So we'll go in depth on this and we'll take your questions as well.

42:46Matt Roberts: But just as a headline mini preview, Al Karaz was asked for a headline mini preview of this final. He said, I hope it won't be five and a half hours. Do we hope it will be five and a half hours? Do we want a replay of Paris?

43:04Catherine Whitaker: If it goes five and a half hours, I'm going to get annoyed because the roof's going to close halfway through it. And I'm going to think, while it's starting at four o 'clock...

43:12Matt Roberts: And it's going to clash with the lionesses.

43:13Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. I'm worried about... I'm really worried about women in finals now having to stop halfway through for the roof to close because it's got dark.

43:21David Law: What point would they have to stop, do you think?

43:23Matt Roberts: Well, they'd do it at the end of the set, wouldn't they, in anticipation.

43:26Catherine Whitaker: So you might get... Half eight, maybe, if we're at that point. Like, something like that. It's not... I know, and generally you would expect maybe grass court matches to go a bit quicker than the clay court ones, especially if they're serving as they have been. I want it to be great and finish before the roof has to close.

43:45Matt Roberts: I'm now nervous about grumpy Matt.

43:49Catherine Whitaker: Look, in the moment I'm sure I'll be like, oh, this is great, but in principle... You'll be blonde by then.

43:55David Law: So you can't be grumpy when you're sat there with blonde hair. Principle, it will annoy me.

44:01Matt Roberts: David what do you want what do you foresee

44:04David Law: I hope that they just I don't care how long it goes I just want them to go toe to toe and play well again at the same time because it's the best size in the sport

44:12Matt Roberts: do you feel confident they will because remember before the French Open final we were genuinely worried it might be a bit disappointing and during

44:20Catherine Whitaker: it ended up being one of the best matches of all time absolutely but I keep thinking about how close Yannick Sinner was to winning that in straight sets we were two sets in a breakup and certainly in four sets.

44:31David Law: But it was still... It was good.

44:33Catherine Whitaker: The start of it was electric. The start was amazing. Alcraz went off for a bit. But it was good. It was good quality. But we wouldn't have been talking about it as a classic.

44:40David Law: I do feel like... I reassure myself that Alcraz has always shown up in Grandstand Finals. He's not lost one. Yeah. And I reassure myself about that. But I do think that there is a chance one of these days that he comes out just a little bit off and Sinner just destroys him because of the way he plays and the straight lines down the line that he goes with. That might happen one day and I think we've all just got to accept that they're not superhuman. They're absolutely incredible players. But I'd just love to see them. I'd love to see the Wimbledon crowd get to see what we all witnessed in Paris.

45:25David Law: Something like that.

45:28Matt Roberts: he's not asking for much just another five and a half hour one of the greatest matches of all time it's all he wants

45:35David Law: if it was four sets or if it was three really close sets where they both played well at the same time I just want to see them combined because I think that they have this ability to combine in a way that is of the very best rivalries out there

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46:37Catherine Whitaker: Hey, everyone, it's Adam, host of Ted's podcast, Rethinking with Adam Grant. And this episode is powered by AT &T Business. When you're building a business, momentum is everything. There's nothing worse than hitting your stride only to have a spinning loading icon bring everything to a halt. When navigating competing priorities, reliability isn't a luxury, it's a foundation. AT &T Business is built to work so you can spend less time troubleshooting and more time focusing on what actually matters. Powered by AT &T Business, built to work. Get today at business.att.com.

47:13Matt Roberts: let's start with tomorrow shall we and it it starts at 1 p.m on center court with the men's doubles final your guy rinky hikikata david in the final against david pell of the netherlands with him no yes what did i say i thought you said against but maybe you didn't i very much intended with.

47:35Catherine Whitaker: Okay.

47:35Matt Roberts: They are against. Julian Cash was going to say, Johnny, it's been a long fortnight. If only it was Johnny Cash. Be well into that. And Lloyd Glasspool, they're the fifth seeds. I'm going to guess that they're the favourites. Hidjukata and Pell have saved match points, I think, in three matches.

47:55Catherine Whitaker: Wow.

47:56Matt Roberts: To get here. And I believe...

47:58Catherine Whitaker: There's scenes in the semis.

47:59Matt Roberts: I believe there's quite the story in terms of how they got together as a pair. there was a WhatsApp sent that was very hastily deleted. I'll try and get the full scoop.

48:11David Law: I'm looking forward to it.

48:12Matt Roberts: I hope there's more to it than that and not just a deleted WhatsApp. But there you go. So that is what kicks things off on Centre at 1pm. And then that is followed by, not before 4pm, the women's singles final. Iguer Shiontek. Who's in that?

48:32Matt Roberts: Matthew enjoyed that. Igor Shiontek against Amanda Anisimova

48:39Catherine Whitaker: we're here we made it, it's happening

48:44Matt Roberts: what's going to happen?

48:45David Law: you're going to defer your prediction until tomorrow's preview show at 12 or are we going to get it?

48:50Matt Roberts: do you feel able to rationally preview this? sure honest question it's okay if you're not yeah no I do

48:57Catherine Whitaker: I think Shiontek's the favourite I think the single most likely outcome is Svantec in two, given how well she's playing, given her record and experience in Grandstand finals, given what people say about, you know, it's Anissimova's first time having to play Svantec, and given what people say about her intensity and her speed of foot and her ball and her RPMs. It's just a lot to adjust to in a nervous, big moment from Andra Anissimova. So I think if it went that way, I would not be at all surprised. But my pick is an Isomova, obviously.

49:37Matt Roberts: You told New York Times listeners that you just have a feeling. I did.

49:43Catherine Whitaker: I didn't give them all the law of...

49:45David Law: Do you still have a feeling? Six years worth of feeling. Yeah, I do. I do. See if he has a feeling still at 12 tomorrow.

49:54Matt Roberts: David, what's your feeling?

49:55Catherine Whitaker: Sorry, can I just say what I've said there about, you know, how Anissimova's going to have to adjust to facing Svontek for the first time. She's going to also have to adjust Svontek to facing Anissimova for the first time. And that ball strike, and if I'm Anissimova, I'm thinking Ostapenko tomorrow. Like those big flat hits get the first hit in the rally. Ostapenko does not move well. She maybe moves worse than Anisimova at the moment. And she manages to not be too bothered by the Svantec game. The thing is with Ostapenko is that it's her entire personality to beat Svantec. And she goes into this mode that I don't know if even Anisimova has.

50:42Catherine Whitaker: But tactically, I think there's something that Anisimova can learn from her there.

50:48Matt Roberts: Do you think if Amanda Onisimova called up Yelena Ostapenko tonight and said...

50:53Catherine Whitaker: Come in the box. Oh, that's great, isn't it? Get her in the box.

50:59Matt Roberts: Oh, my God.

51:00Catherine Whitaker: Freak her out. Yeah, it'd be love and love if Ostapenko's in the box.

51:04Matt Roberts: No, if you think...

51:04Catherine Whitaker: God, I'm obsessed with that idea.

51:07Matt Roberts: I wondered if Andy Murray was going to show up in the box for when Dan Evans played Novak Djokovic. If he was going to show up in Dan Evans' box. I was willing that to happen for the plot. But anyway. No, I mean, obviously, Box, dream scenario. But if she called her up tonight and said, Yelena, tell me all your secrets. How do I do it? Do you think Yelena's spilling? Or do you think she's saying, no, that's mine?

51:33Catherine Whitaker: She's saying, no, that's mine, I think.

51:35Matt Roberts: OK.

51:37Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I think so. I don't think she's got anything really against Fiontech. I think she just likes the fact that she knows how to beat her.

51:46Matt Roberts: Right, and she wants that to be hers, her thing.

51:49Catherine Whitaker: I could be wrong, maybe she's more generous than I realise.

51:51David Law: I agree with you, I think she's just very amused by it all and really enjoys it.

51:57Matt Roberts: David?

51:59David Law: I tell you, listening to Matt talk about what Anissa Mova might be able to do to Svante, I find very compelling and I did find myself potentially changing my mind halfway through your answer. but I feel that that is overly romantic if I do I understand your feeling and there's also good logic behind it because Shontek has been beaten by big power hitters with flat hits and Anisimova can hurt you from both sides I do think I will pick Shontek to win the match I think she has a game that can hurt Anisimova with the ability to move her and I really fear that Anissa Mova may freeze a little.

52:47Matt Roberts: How big a fear is that for you? Do you feel that's a significant risk? Yeah.

52:53David Law: Yeah, I do. Because it's hard and because if she doesn't get off to a great start... You can panic. She's so relentless. She could just be out of sight in about 15 minutes. Could be full of love.

53:08Matt Roberts: She was very settled very early against Sabalenka. I know Semi is not the final.

53:15David Law: It's encouraging, though.

53:16Matt Roberts: But it is encouraging, yeah.

53:18David Law: Because I felt that that was a risk against Sabalenka, too. It's more of a risk against Svantec because of the final and because of the way Svantec does that to people. If she can get the serve going and just get a couple of holds, if she can get to two all, I think Anissa Mova becomes incredibly dangerous. it just feels quite Madison Keyes-y

53:39Matt Roberts: this run if Madison Keyes hadn't done what she did in Australia if I didn't have that so recently in my mind I might be more heavily favouring Svantec than I am I'm also sitting next to Matt Roberts and I'm feeling that energy and I'm now thinking about Elena Ostapenko as well

53:58David Law: and visualising the hair

53:59Matt Roberts: yeah exactly Maybe I'm the one that's unable to give rational takes about this. But yeah, the Madison Keyes thing is really in my mind. And the fact that sometimes a tough draw ends up being a good draw. The fact that she's just beaten the world number one probably makes it more likely that she's going to beat a former world number one. If she'd got there by beating Laura Siegmund, she'd have the confidence of beating Laura Siegmund, but that's not the same as the confidence of beating the world number one. Yeah, I agree.

54:31Catherine Whitaker: the way Madison Keyes carried that wave, that feeling, that knowing that she could do it into the final is, yeah, that's exactly what Anisimova's got to do.

54:42Matt Roberts: We'll have more time to talk about it tomorrow on our preview show at midday. I am going to be asking for percentages at that point. You have a stay of execution.

54:50David Law: Sure. And a night's sleep helps to come up with it, doesn't it?

54:54Matt Roberts: And an anxious night's sleep. You might be more of a state tomorrow, David.

54:58Catherine Whitaker: I have been a bit of a state today. Hit the wall today.

55:02Matt Roberts: Matt's parents were in today, and we went and chatted to them before coming up on air. They were such a vibe. I asked them if they wanted to sub in for me and Matt tonight.

55:12Catherine Whitaker: This is what happens when you come to Wimbledon and don't watch Harriet Dart, Katie Bolter, and that Cameron Norrie Draper match. They had a great day today.

55:21Matt Roberts: I'm really glad they had such a great day. That preview show, same as the one on Sunday ahead of the men's final, is midday um it's available for everybody on our youtube channel so subscribe to the youtube channel just search for us on there we'll put the link in our show notes as well and you can get an alert when we're going live but it's guaranteed to be midday it doesn't those preview shows don't go up as a podcast because they go out of date so quickly even more out of date than these ones even more than these ones and uh yeah there's just no need to go back and watch our preview shows of no scrub it from the internet yeah particularly the one from the from the women's final two years ago yeah i have actually campaigned for the campaign for that to be scrubbed from the internet

56:05Catherine Whitaker: the audio was bad and our takes were worse we should probably still do it yeah get rid of it

56:09Matt Roberts: yeah what time what time is this in america so midday uk time is 7 a.m east coast time and uh the convenient time of 4 a.m in the west coast so okay if you're not with us pam 4 a.m we're disappointed um and then what will that be 11 p.m in melbourne something like that and so you can stay up at the moment 10 p.m then late evening in australia early mid evening in asia that sort of thing very good midday in the uk right here on our youtube channel do smash that like and subscribe button while you are there folks we need to say hello to our mascots for this show just before I do that you might hear us talking about Friends of the Tennis Podcast that is our subscription service for people that particularly love the show, want more of it or people that just hate ads and want some ad free listening it is available to anybody that wants it.

57:22Matt Roberts: You get ad-free listening. You get eight editions of Tennis Relived every year. You get monthly live YouTube shows where we cover all sorts of different topics. Lots of them to Q &As. So you can have the chance to submit your questions. Grand Slam review shows, which help people cope with the post-Grand Slam blues, including us. so there'll be one of those about this Wimbledon next week and we get some awesome voice notes from contributors which really help with those shows as well you get Hannah's column Hannah is an incredible writer and we're very lucky to have her as part of our team she also is the captain of the barge which is our safe community platform for Friends of the Tennis Podcast to talk about tennis with people that like talking about tennis in a non-abusive way pre-sale tickets for live events and 90 plus bonus podcasts in the Friends archive some of which have aged better than others but all of which are an entertaining listen nonetheless so if that sounds good then the link to become a friend as always is in our show notes you can also get yourself an intro or a shout out more on that in a moment we of course have our mascots Phoebe, Maisie and Roger hello to you hello to our executive producers Greg, Chris and Jeff do we have shout outs tonight Matt?

58:49Catherine Whitaker: we do

58:50Matt Roberts: I've been shielded from them they're not in my agenda

58:55Catherine Whitaker: yes I stole them put them in my agenda

58:59Matt Roberts: we've got competing agendas well it's nice when they're a surprise yeah no absolutely I'm prepared to be surprised

59:05Catherine Whitaker: Emily Price we start with in Wodonga, Australia hello Emily I don't know if I'm saying that right I'm sure the Australians will tell me if I'm not three hours north of Melbourne apparently

59:18Matt Roberts: so that probably means the live show will be about 9 or 10pm the preview show and

59:26Catherine Whitaker: Emily and her tennis bestie Nat are actually ticking off a bucket list item and coming to Wimbledon this year so maybe they've already been

59:35Matt Roberts: wow that is an incredible bucket list thing to do for the first time maybe they had the vibe of your mum and dad

59:44Catherine Whitaker: they were sat near Josh Widdicombe oh

59:48Matt Roberts: no royal box for Josh or for Leonardo DiCaprio

59:51Catherine Whitaker: or for Garbino Muguruza

59:53Matt Roberts: no but she was sat sort of behind Leonardo DiCaprio yeah I doubt they were you know the cheap seats

1:00:00Catherine Whitaker: I'm sure they had a good day

1:00:03Matt Roberts: Emily we hope you had a good day like Emily Webley Smith yep she's our only Emily

1:00:10David Law: I don't know any others Emily Appleton She's a doubles player

1:00:15Matt Roberts: British doubles player Very big, thank you Emily

1:00:20Catherine Whitaker: We've also got Thomas Rondo who is from Belgium but lives in New York Hello Thomas Hey Thomas He says like the best player in the world He had some

1:00:32Matt Roberts: Instagram content overnight Have you seen that?

1:00:35Catherine Whitaker: No

1:00:37Matt Roberts: Well it's there Yeah, it's not giving best player in the world, put it that way. Look, it's fine. I don't really understand him as a person.

1:00:49Catherine Whitaker: He only gave that once, didn't he, in a very specific rally.

1:00:53David Law: Look at Matt rowing back from the best player in the world.

1:00:56Catherine Whitaker: I love the bit, but...

1:00:58Matt Roberts: Thomas, like Thomas Muster, like Thomas Enquist.

1:01:02David Law: Like Thomas Schmid from the 80s. Anybody remember Thomas Schmid?

1:01:07Matt Roberts: Thomas Bellucci.

1:01:09David Law: Yeah, he had a Z on the end of his name.

1:01:12Matt Roberts: Do we know that Thomas... We do know that Thomas Ronde doesn't. Yeah, yeah. We do.

1:01:16Catherine Whitaker: Thomas and his partner Katie welcomed a baby girl last March. As Thomas said, I ended up watching the Cineras Kokalenka, sorry David, Roland Garros finals on my phone while pushing her stroller during nap time. Bad idea. I was way too into it and came close to waking her up too many times. We French speakers really can't keep in the ooh-la-la's.

1:01:37Matt Roberts: oh Thomas Thomas maybe yes although then he's written like Thomas Mahatch so

1:01:43Catherine Whitaker: might be trying to guide me on that pronunciation or maybe just wanted a Thomas Mahatch mention

1:01:47Matt Roberts: Thomas Thomas thank you very much your continued support and hello and finally we have Debra

1:01:55Catherine Whitaker: Debra Rafson from Florida who is in our predictions competition this Wimbledon in the year's letter. I think pretty well. Pretty solid. And we met Deborah at the New York Live show last year. She was also thrilled to meet Mary and Pam there. And Catherine, you and I met up with her at the coffee stand on day one of the US Open.

1:02:20Matt Roberts: Oh, that was a lovely experience.

1:02:22Catherine Whitaker: Before we all went off to watch Amanda Nissimova lose. Well, before that,

1:02:29Matt Roberts: it was a really lovely experience.

1:02:31Catherine Whitaker: No, it's not an omen.

1:02:33Matt Roberts: that really was a lovely way to start the US Open it was, it was great so thank you Debra, like David it's quite a 90s name Debra I feel like you've got to have something here any Debbies? Debra Jevons

1:02:51Catherine Whitaker: different spelling but we'll definitely take it well done

1:02:59Matt Roberts: Debra so nearly let you down there but we've pulled it out of the bag at the last minute she's chatted to a right old cast of characters in the Raw Box this week, she has to have all the chit chat Anna Wintour was there today Benedict Cumberbatch Rami Malek right then, that's it for today folks, we'll be back twice tomorrow once on YouTube exclusively at midday UK time for our women's final preview show and we'll take your questions on that show as well. We might not be here because it's going to be 32 degrees tomorrow and I'm demanding to be in the shade, which this spot isn't at midday, but we'll be somewhere around here.

1:03:48Matt Roberts: We'll tell you after, Matthew. Doesn't need to be arranged right now. So we'll be back for that at midday tomorrow, then of course we'll be back at the end of play to talk about what's happened.

1:04:03Catherine Whitaker: Godspeed, everyone.

1:04:05Matt Roberts: Thank you so much for listening, for watching. Do subscribe to the channel if you're watching us on YouTube and we'll see you and speak to you tomorrow.

1:04:18Catherine Whitaker: Hey, everyone. It's Adam, host of Ted's podcast, Rethinking with Adam Grant. And this episode is powered by AT &T Business. When you're building a business, momentum is everything. There's nothing worse than hitting your stride only to have a spinning loading icon bring everything to a halt. When navigating competing priorities, reliability isn't a luxury. It's a foundation. AT &T Business is built to work so you can spend less time troubleshooting and more time focusing on what actually matters. Powered by AT &T Business, built to work. Get today at business.att.com. Hi, I'm Nick, co-host of The Best One Yet.

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