Live from Wimbledon Day 13 - Swiatek’s dream day a nightmare for Anisimova

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1:16Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast live from Wimbledon on day 13 of the championship. the day of the women's singles final, won by Iger Svjontek to claim her sixth major title in the most emphatic possible fashion. Six love, six love in 57 minutes. I'm Catherine Murtiker, joined tonight by David Law, Charlie Eccleshire, special guest from The Athletic, and plain old brunette Matt Roberts over here, just as we've always known and loved him.

1:49Catherine Whitaker: yeah there's an alternate timeline where this is a very different pod and my hair is very different tomorrow but alas when charlie signed up to come on tonight he thought it'd be vibesy that man would be blonde yeah i i did have very different you kind of have a rough sense of it and you know initially we're going to come and do it straight we'd all be buzzing off a great final yeah, didn't quite pan out it's a really difficult one isn't it

2:18Matt Roberts: because there is lots to celebrate here Iga Shiontek being back to her best seemingly being a force right at the top of women's tennis again putting in the most astonishing performance that deserves to be lauded and celebrated and analysed and yet there's just undeniably a sense of awkwardness and discomfort and sadness, really, that you just can't get away from. So we're going to have to kind of just embrace all of those elements to today, I think, in equal measure, David. Yeah, I think so, because, I mean, that scoreline

2:58David Law: is the result of two things at the same time. One, Iguys Fiontek playing out of her mind, doing what she does so well. There's nobody in the game today that can do that. she is talked about for her bakery for a good reason. This is not an isolated incident. It's been fewer and far between this year, even though her ranking and her race position have stayed good and she's put in good performances, we haven't seen this type of run for a while. And yet, as it was going along, it was all very familiar, if you just think about her other Grand Slam final performances. but I also think had Amanda Inissimova come out and played as she can and I know those two things are not in isolation but she was capable of doing a lot better today had she not, as in her words, slightly frozen out there and it's a shame for the occasion, for the competition it's been a brilliant tournament and Amanda Anissimova has provided some incredible moments within it, and she deserves to be remembered for those.

4:09David Law: And it's a shame on that level that you've ended up with this awkwardness. But you're right. I mean, the sheer brilliance of Shiantic must be celebrated too. It's not an easy one to sum up in a simple way.

4:23Matt Roberts: Yeah, this might be her first love-and-love Grand Slam final, but she's got previous for playing Grand Slam finals like this and making them a bit awkward. Yeah, her most recent one against Paolini wasn't dissimilar. I think the thing is, she is really the worst, the absolute worst player to play. I mean, even if you're playing Sabalenka, even if Sabalenka's peaking, she might just throw in a loose game or two where she goes for too much. You know, she starts showing off almost, or maybe she throws in a loose service game where she double faults a bit. Fiontek was so unbelievably dialed in, to the point where she's like fist pumping in the last game.

4:59And, you know, with a lot of players, you'd be like, that's almost mean and a bit sadistic, but I think she's just so in the zone and taking so little for granted. Like, even at that moment, she's probably thinking, next point, next point, got to win the next point. And you're, you know, and you feel like Johanna's in the moment, you must be a bit like, come on, like, can I have a game? I mean, it was, yeah, it was a really tough watch. And I think it's a strange one, because if Siobhan Tech had won comfortably, but with a sort of respectable scoreline, she would absolutely be the story. you know way much and it's a strange one because from a tennis perspective she is the story really this it's an amazing recovery and journey from where she was even as recently as the french open but i think for the sort of casual fan they're they're watching that final today and all their thoughts right now with anisimova because it's such a horribly relatable it's the thing anyone who's played tennis at any level dreads you know because tennis unlike a lot of sports has like a very obvious worst case scenario and it's always there kind of in the back of your mind this could happen and weirdly I said to Matt Fateman who I sat next to we were talking about the psychology of when you go into a final do you prepare for the worst you even give voice to the worst that could happen you know do you say to your player like what do you do if you're you know if you go four left five left down don't panic or do you not even voice that because you don't want to make and think about it.

6:25Matt Roberts: Well, sports psychologists say that you shouldn't even allow the worst-case scenario to be in your mind as a... You should never say to yourself, don't do this, like don't miss this putt or don't drive into the rough because all your brain hears is into the rough or miss the putt. Apparently that is very rudimentary sports psychology, but I just don't know how anybody does that. You sit down at Six Love Down, a Grand Slam final, I know these are elite athletes that employ sports psychologists and all the rest of it how any human mind can not go bloomin' heck just don't lose this love and love I just don't know how that doesn't pop into your mind and I did want to ask her that actually but I was going to ask that was my question but then she talked about not feeling fit and having a mischievous and I just wanted to I used up my question clarifying exactly what she meant by that but my question was going to be at what point did you start thinking about the love and love and I'd be curious so maybe she wouldn't answer that.

7:23I don't know.

7:24Matt Roberts: What point did you start thinking about love and love?

7:26Catherine Whitaker: At love too. Really? No, seriously. Because honestly, the very first point of the match was a warning sign. She put in her first serve, but it was a slow first serve. She didn't hit it properly. She didn't strike it well. And then the return came back at her and she shanked a backhand. Immediately, I was like, okay, this is... We didn't see that in the opening stages against Sabalenka, for example, which was another huge match. So immediately I was worried in that first game. I wasn't thinking love and love. But at love too, when that was the only game she had game point in and when she couldn't get over the line in that one and lost it and went down a double break, I was thinking about it because of Iguis Fiontech.

8:10Catherine Whitaker: Like against anyone else, I don't think I would have been because, as Charlie said, there's a chance of there being a poor game or a lapse in concentration or something. But we've seen how ruthless, and I use that as a total compliment, Igor Sviantek is. She's relentless in her brilliance. And you could just tell that she was playing well. She was putting the returns deep. She was middling the ball. She was finding a high percentage of first serves. She was doing all the things she needed to do. And down the other end, Anissa Mova was frozen with nerves, as she said. And as we later found out from her press conference as well, she just said she had no energy.

8:49Catherine Whitaker: She was tired, she was fatigued, she was burnt out by everything that she's done these two weeks. And that combination, plus her opponent, honestly I was thinking about it early in this match and I was just so desperate for it not to happen.

9:07Matt Roberts: Not your best day, Matt. No. You called it, David. I know you didn't want to be right, but you did foresee this, maybe not love and love, but you did foresee a version of this as a likely-ish scenario.

9:24David Law: Certainly one of the two, really. I mean, I guess there's three because there are two other scenarios whereby Anissimova wins and Shvantec wins a much closer match. But I definitely thought, I mean, I can't remember who won the toss at the start of the match because the moment that Anissimova was serving first, I was a bit anxious for it. because I sort of thought she might be better off because if you think about it, I think when she won the Sabalenka match, she had to receive for it in the end. She lost her serve trying to serve it out.

9:58Matt Roberts: And it's very fashionable these days to elect to receive, even on grass. I remember when I'd be in the studio with Greg Rzedsky in Amazon days, whenever anybody would elect to receive on grass, he'd go, what are you doing? But actually these days it's very common.

10:11David Law: I watched it on TV. We have one centre court seat I watched it on TV with the sound, I'm listening to the commentary, and there was a moment towards the end of the first set, or maybe the start of the second set, where Tracey Austin and John McEnroe talked about whether you have that conversation before a match, what if I'm six love down? What mindset do you need to have? And neither one of them seemed to be able to entertain that idea. They didn't feel like that's something you could do, But to get back to your question, I mean, I said I thought there was a possibility it could be a 50-minute match.

10:51David Law: And it was 57. And I don't take any enjoyment about that being the case. But I've just seen it too many times with Svantec. She's the master of it. The only other player I've ever seen like that is Steffi Graf. I mean, Martina Navratilovi used to get results like that. But the era wasn't as competitive as it is now, I don't think. There were a lot of weaker players. I mean, Anissa Mova isn't a 6-0, 6-0 against player when she's playing well. But Svantec has that ability. It's the single-mindedness that Steffi had, and it all goes so fast. The worst feeling of the lot must be in Anissa Mova's shoes is occasionally she hit a good shot.

11:37David Law: You saw her hit one of those shots, and Svantec just dealt with it. and that must be a horrible feeling to see one of your better struck shots just come back and in Anissa Mova's case it's out of the way of you and you've got to move to it and she doesn't have that There was a point wasn't there in the final game of the first set which ended up with both of them at the net and Anissa Mova somehow ended up losing it and her body language did seem to say I mean this isn't my day but I mean yeah I feared a comprehensive win but I thought that would look sort of like a one and three or something like that.

12:14I think, you know, that's so extreme. And I think there's an additional fear. Wimbledon, there have been a disproportionate number of really bad women's finals here. I don't think, I don't feel like that happens so much at the other slams. I know if that's a grass thing and it can just, sets can suddenly go really quickly, but we have had a few.

12:30Matt Roberts: I wonder if it's what Matt is always saying about like the atmosphere of a final. Well, you were always making the point about Grand Sun finals just feeling different, but that is particularly exaggerated here, isn't it? So much, yeah. Ceremony and things. It's so quiet. Still. It freaks me out. If you were designing a situation to make somebody feel anxious and create an anxiety dream scenario, you would create this.

12:59Catherine Whitaker: Honestly, I thought it would be a long time before we did a podcast about a match that I found as tough to watch as the Onsjabur win-win final from two years ago. And here we are. Just one other little thing I wanted to say on just how brilliant Svantec was and obviously watch a lot of Amanda Nisimov and this wasn't obviously anywhere close to Pika Nisimov but even in the rallies where she did get into it as David's described, the thing I noticed about Svantec was her ability to still get to the ball and break the sidelines with her shots you know in particularly on the backhand okay Anissimova was not striking her her shots well today but Svante's ability to be in the right position and get width on her ground strokes so early in a rally is something that I just don't think anyone else in the tour can do really I talk a lot about how Sabalenka's improved at that in terms of generating width on her ground strokes to go with power but Svante got her best does it better than anyone and that was absolute kryptonite for Anisimova whose feet weren't really moving today because of the nerves and she just wasn't in position and she just exploited that just expertly.

14:15And there was a double thing on that because often she was doing it to the Anisimova backhand which felt sort of counterintuitive you're going after the player's strength but it moved her out of position and it was also quite an alpha move of the like when we've seen Sinner do that sort of thing before I'd be like oh you like your backhand yeah I've got a not bad backhand myself and I'm going to back myself.

14:32Matt Roberts: It was a message to Matt You like that backhand? Yeah, exactly. Let me rip it to shreds. Yeah, I read that in your piece, actually. I thought that was fantastic. I also saw the line, a portrait of nerves in action. And I don't know, we were all just in the Anna Simova press conference just now. And she didn't claim she wasn't nervous. She wasn't backing away from that at all. But were you surprised at all about the extent to which she put that performance and scoreline down to physicality? I think the way I read that is that it's physical things are easier. There are quicker fixes for them. And so I think if you're trying to process, it's far easier to be like, I wasn't feeling physically great.

15:18Next time I'm going to feel physically better. And I thought there was a bit of that with Jack Draper earlier in the tournament. You know, he went really, really heavy on just like, it's not a mental thing. It's not about pressure. This is a tennis thing. And I totally believe him. but I also think that's just because that like make it something make it simple make it something you can control and that it's easier to make improvements on so yeah because I think we all went in there expecting her to kind of pour up not pour a heart she's not that kind of player necessarily but certainly for us watching it it's hard not to put a huge amount of stock on the psychological the mental element but I think yeah that's a way to help her kind of process it But I was just going to say as well, I think, again,

16:03Catherine Whitaker: to try and bring all of this back to giving Svantec the credit that she deserves as well. Like just her ball is just a nightmare, I think, to face if you're not feeling the racket well. Like that heavy spin.

16:16Matt Roberts: I remember there was a point when we were watching Svantec against Bencic, and obviously you were riding high on Anisimova just having won that incredible match against Sabalenka. but we were watching Shontek demolish Bencic. We shouldn't forget that Bencic only got two games. She dropped two games in the last two matches. 20 games in a row she's won to win Wimbledon. It's wild. You pointed at the screen and you said that is what she's going to do to Anisimova and that's going to be a problem. This isn't just a story of Anisimova freezing on the big stage at all.

16:53Catherine Whitaker: No, I think Anisimova could have started like that today against other players and been able to slightly work her way in and find something, get a lift from the crowd somewhere. But there was just nowhere for her to go because Svantec was sublime. And what a point to finish it as well. A really great one. I was kind of pleased it did at least end on a Svantec winner. Yeah, she was awesome.

17:19Matt Roberts: It's crazy, isn't it, that we're here with Igor Svantec, Wimbledon champion, after the year that she's had the clay court season that she's had i mean like she's not going to be looked upon it's very strange to talk about a former world number one like a recent world number one a five-time major champion as like a really surprise winner of wimbledon but honestly if if a few weeks ago you told us that igor shantek was going to win wimbledon we would have been Really shocked, David, I think.

17:51David Law: Especially when she was losing, what was it, one-on-one to Coco Golf, something like that. My mind goes back to the pre-tournament press conference with Jessica Begula when she was describing the surface and how you can suddenly kind of have it on this surface. And she pointed to Vondrusova and Krachikova as players that had shown no real form and suddenly won Wimbledon, you know. And it's kind of similar here. Yes, Svantec did have more form on the eve of this tournament getting to a final on grass. But, you know, those last two performances, I don't think that they were brewing all the way through the tournament.

18:33David Law: I think she did well. But she lost a set against Katie McNally, I think, along the way. And she was very good. But, yeah, it clicked for her the last couple of days. And, I mean, breathtaking. I was looking at the only other 6-love, 6-love final that any of us can remember is the Steffi Graf-Natalia's Vareva match, which was 34 minutes long in 1988 in the French Open final. She won six 6-love sets that fortnight, but three in a row from Svantec to culminate in the tournament is something else.

19:07Catherine Whitaker: I think she's the first player in the Open Era to win a slam, first woman in the Open Era to win a slam with a 6-love set in the semi and the final. it's extraordinary I mean as soon as Vareva's name being mentioned as like a tennis bogeyman you could sort of like and you

19:22Matt Roberts: and you don't want Anisimova to come that exactly her name doesn't deserve to be synonymous she won I think 20 doubles titles across women's and mix she was a former one number five but ultimately that is what most people know her for and I was thinking it's a weird thing in sport that in many ways if Anisimova had lost 7-6 in the third to Sabalenka we'd all be saying what a tournament and you know can she kick on at the US Open because she's shown us she can go toe-to-toe with the very best. Well, she beat Sabalenka, and yet, you know, there's a fear. And the press conference did ease that fear a little bit, but there is a fear that she comes off this, and there's a bit of a rebuilding job that needs doing, which, you know, there shouldn't be in many ways.

20:04She's just achieved this incredible thing. I think on Shviontek as well, what's interesting, you know, now we've had, what, nine different winners in the last nine Wimbledon's. is she just another one of those nights? Does she slip back into being a, oh, remember that year when Trivante was great on grass? Because she's very different from all those players. Obviously, she's not a Vondrosseva, she's not a critique of a clear, they were kind of bolts from the blue. She's not that in a wider sense, but in a Wimbledon sense, she is another shock winner. She is another player who never got beyond the quarters or really looked like a natural on it.

20:38Matt Roberts: And also, if this is a return to, champion Svantec, we're expecting her to win the French Open next year and would she have won Wimbledon if she'd won the French Open? I know it's days but in a five week long season, days are critical, practice days are critical and those seem to have been very critical this year in Igor Svantec's success. Now maybe she won't need them next year because of what she's accumulated on the surface this year but will Igor Svantec ever do the channel slag? Well, I think this year almost reinforces how hard she thinks it is to do. You know, the way she was talking about it after the semi, she was kind of like, I just don't really know how you do both, was pretty much the sentiment.

21:24You know, and it makes think of what Alcaraz, which we'll get on to, is trying to do to do it back to back. Odessa, Odessa. Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. Is that just the answer?

21:35David Law: I'm finally on board. That's the common thread there. But yeah, and I mean, you know, she's now won as many Grand Slam matches this year as Sabalenka-Sviontek. You know, which again is, kind of feels mad. And I wonder, obviously we can never know, I just wonder how that final would, like would Sviontek have gone out and just destroyed Sabalenka? Or would that have been a really close, I mean, obviously we don't know. I mean, I'd love to know Sabalenka's thoughts on that. She watched this match. I bet she's in Ibiza.

22:04Matt Roberts: No, Mykonos. Mykonos, yeah. thing isn't it does anyone want to speculate on that completely ludicrous sliding doors would Svantec have done a version of this to Sabalenka would it have been a completely different match I think completely

22:17Catherine Whitaker: different I think the way we've seen Svantec play this tournament I would have to say she likely would have won it I think she was playing better than Sabalenka this tournament but I think it would have looked completely different

22:30David Law: Sabalenka wouldn't freeze and understandably so she's used to these occasions I also think just comparing Zvereva who I do remember watching and Anisimova I don't expect Anisimova to kind of be remembered only for this I think she will have other moments I think she will reach other Grand Slam finals I really do

22:56Matt Roberts: Matt brings his Breathe Right Nasal strips to Grand Slams I should bring the blonde hair dye to every slam I should bring Matt I bought it

23:07David Law: it costs£3.49 every grand slam that is going in your luggage

23:12Catherine Whitaker: so yeah to be clear we're extending the pledge to any slam

23:18David Law: oh excellent I was trying to get you to commit to that yesterday

23:21Matt Roberts: I said to Matt are you happy for your look to be dependent on a pack of dye that costs£3.49

23:27David Law: yeah okay my concern would be because her game is so complete okay maybe movement aside the rest of it's so complete and Svereva was never that she's as you say a great doubles player this was a bit of a surprise yeah she reached the final I would worry for what happens the next time Anissimeva is in a Grand Slam final because how do you not how do you I mean for her sake I hope she isn't playing Svantec next time that she gets somebody that allows her to establish her feet in a match?

23:59Catherine Whitaker: Well, look, I would love Amanda Nisimova and Madison Keyes to have a chat, because we were talking about how much is Nisimova going to do a Keyes this weekend in terms of the Australian Open, where she beat Shvontek and Sambalenka back-to-back to win it, which was what, obviously, Nisimova was having to try to do here. well this was if this was reminiscent of any Grand Sam final in recent memory it was very reminiscent of Madison Keyes' first Grand Sam final the 2017 US Open just a total freeze didn't show up and look it took many years for Madison Keyes to eventually win one and it was absolutely no given that she would and as much as I'm a believer in Amanda Nissomova it's not a given that she wins a Grand Sam title but it was also interesting I think to hear her talk about her serve you know she said I got to the women of final with a mediocre serve an average serve and honestly yes like I've been saying it all week like she's not been serving that well generally it's not a particularly brilliant shot for she doesn't strike it as as cleanly as as her ground strokes for example but it has improved kind of until this tournament, to be honest.

25:19Catherine Whitaker: I think she's been serving better this year than she has this tournament. So there's definitely an area there where she can still improve. And, yeah, like, I'm absolutely going to be the one who stresses, like, this is a tremendous positive tournament. You know, she started out on court 15. And she went to court 12. She went to court 3. She worked her way up from those outside courts all the way to the final. You know, that's amazing. And there's definitely going to be some scar tissue from this. I'm not thinking that you just click your fingers and move on from an experience like that because that was chastening and sickening and brutal.

26:02Catherine Whitaker: It was horrible. But I do think time will help her here. And I do expect to kind of see her back in these sorts of moments again. and just when I was at a low ebb, Robert McNichol, he popped up in WhatsApp and said, if you need a boost, Yvonne Goulogon lost 6-love, 6-1 in 38 minutes to Billie Jean King in 1975. Five years later, she won the title.

26:31Matt Roberts: That's going to make me cry.

26:33Catherine Whitaker: Well done, Robert. Thank you, Robert.

26:35Matt Roberts: Reggie popped up, being the spirit of Wimbledon, just when you needed it. Oh, yeah, what a man. I mean, I think, yeah, I mean, if you're thinking as well about little warning signs as well as the serve, I mean, from the nerves perspective, how she closed out the quarterfinal and you could argue the semifinal. You know, this isn't a player still who's kind of immune to nerves in big moments. You know, she said that as well. Exactly. And I mean, she got through those matches, but, you know, it was pretty shaky. And again, hopefully she kind of learns from that. And I think, yeah, the final thing is so interesting as to whether, as you say, you know, when she gets, hopefully she does get into another one, whether you're thinking, well, that's good.

27:16She's had experience. But when something's like overwhelmingly a negative one, how helpful that is. I tend to think it still is helpful. And like in my own life, when I F things up, I often say to myself, well, you were probably going to make that mistake at some point. Now it's happened. You're not going to make it again. And I think she probably, you know. Gosh, that's healthy. Yeah, well, as long as it's not, like, totally catastrophic. Do you know what I mean? And I guess... I agree. But do you know what I mean? So I think she's probably, her way of processing it is like, well, whenever I played my first Grand Slam final, this was probably a distinct possibility.

27:50Matt Roberts: And I wonder if... I don't know if she and Coco Gauff are friends, but I wonder if, you know, listening, remembering what Coco Gauff had to say... Obviously, the French Open this year wasn't her first major title, but after winning it she was reminiscing about the first Royal Garros final that she played wasn't she and sort of revealing how she said I was beaten before I stepped on the court.

28:14David Law: Yeah. And that wasn't what we heard at the time. Exactly. If you remember was it? That's quite interesting.

28:19Matt Roberts: It was quite a big reveal from her. I wonder if she strikes me as a sort of person who would probably reach out and... Yeah exactly and it's almost like you just need to get that first one out of the way then if that is how you're going to be. And it's different because some players say well actually the first one I felt less pressure because it was kind of a free hit, but clearly that wasn't the feeling today. I mean, I don't have a champion's mindset, but my attitude in Anastasia Mova's shoes in my next Grand Sam final, which I will hopefully reach so that the£3.49's worth of hair dye doesn't go to waste, would be, well, it can only be better.

28:57It literally can't be worse.

28:59Matt Roberts: It literally can only be better, like total free hit. Yeah. could be 56 minutes I guess but realistically it will not be that

29:06Catherine Whitaker: if you keep going he's going to feel better

29:08Matt Roberts: that's my sports psychology for the day

29:10Catherine Whitaker: also I thought we'd hired a professional

29:15Matt Roberts: I didn't tell you this because today's been an all around low but she was actually, she became unavailable it was going to be me

29:23David Law: oh man I wish that had happened so much it's good that you didn't know, as if your anxiety wouldn't have been high enough

29:29Catherine Whitaker: That might be why it happened.

29:35Matt Roberts: Imagine if she'd won and the professional hair colourist wasn't available and you suddenly found yourself with me in a£3.49 pack of hair dye. I've done it before. I back myself.

29:47Catherine Whitaker: I back you. Thank you. That's not what your face 15 seconds ago was saying.

29:51Matt Roberts: Yeah, no, same. Almost as big a winner as Igor Shvontek today. potentially the the guy that published an article before the final with the headline tennis wants grand slam finals to be epics so why is tennis not given this why is women's tennis not given the space good timing charlie yeah i mean it's it's uh yeah just i mean yeah basically the article i wrote was uh yeah on basically the cap that's put on women's grand slam finals it was hooked on the fact that it's 20 years this year since the epic venus williams lindsey davenport final and it occurred to me you know it was just like that was i think it's the longest women's final ever still two hours 45 damper had a championship point she served the match but i mean it was about as dramatic and epic as a final can be and yet it's never it's not in the pan you know it a women's final can't really be in the pantheon it just can't because five sets the length the undulations you don't get that and so because initially i wanted to do a piece just to kind of you know 20 years since let's remember this final but it felt like a good jumping off point to have that discussion and i think a final like this that we've watched today is kind of in a way supports both arguments because the critics will say well you know would we have wanted to watch another set of that like it was terrible but i think that the format really contributes to a match like this because there's an anxiety so much more quickly from a player like Anastasia Mo being like oh my gosh this was my dream and it's getting away from me and as Matt said there was a fear from about two love three love that it could be six love six love and I've got no time and you can feel it from the crowd the crowd feeling like oh my god I've paid a lot of money for this and I'm this going to be done in less than an hour it just adds to the pressure and anxiety that you're already feeling that there's no time to turn it around The reminder in your piece that Carlos Alcárez lost the first five games of his 2023 final against Novak Djokovic.

31:50Matt Roberts: I just don't believe this is unprovable, but I just don't believe that final would have panned out either in result or in epicness in the way that it did if they were playing best of three set. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, because he knows at that point, if I get broken early in the second, I'm on my way to an all-time drubbing, basically, in a final. In the same way Anna Simova would have felt that, rather than feeling, okay, it's a set, I can kind of get my way back into this. But yeah, just bigger, I mean, we've had these discussions before, but it just is, it does feel a little bit of one of those moments where you need to take a step back, and in a sport like tennis, The idea, one of the most, in theory, equitable sports and where you've got the biggest superstars, that we're telling Serena Williams and Irina Sabalenka and whoever, you have to play a smaller format.

32:42You know, if they're talking to a women's footballer, the women's footballer would be like, yeah, that's like telling us our matches are 70 minutes or something.

32:48Matt Roberts: It's wild, isn't it, in a sport with the rich history of relative equality that tennis has, Billie Jean King and the original nine, that they play different formats. It's wild in other sports that don't have... It's just... It's unthinkable in sports that don't have anywhere near the history of... Yeah, but it's basically saying, like, let's stick with rules set in the 19th century when women didn't have the vote. I mean, like, that's the time period by which we are still sticking to these rules. And I think tennis might almost be a victim of its own success because it established itself quicker and those formats took hold as being kind of sacrosanct sacrosanct in a way that in other sports maybe they didn't and they could build them from scratch a little bit more and i think if we were playing look i'm not my argument isn't get rid of best of five set tennis i think the ideal is best of three sets for both first week best of five sets for both uh second week from from quarterfinals onwards maybe fourth round i don't i don't really mind about the details there the most important thing to me is that that both sexes play the same formats but given the way tennis has evolved and the length of matches sort of going from first principles imagine you're an alien dropping from earth and you haven't seen any tennis previously and you watch an epic best of three set tennis match in a final i just don't think anyone's mind would go god i wish there was another couple of sets and another two and a half hours of this i just don't think no that would be the case we're obviously we're conditioned by everything that has come before but i i wish there was more of like a let's come at this from first principles with a clean slate and fresh eyes and do this differently i mean it was a reminder as well because i spoke to lindsey davenport for the piece for her memories of that match but also about this three and five set argument and she you'll remember david the wta finals final was best of five from 84 to 98 so she's actually played a couple of best of five matches i think her defeat to martina hingis in 98 is the last five set women's match so it's not this you know there is some precedent for it and i think the you know and she said and a thing a lot of players will say well a change of format midway through could be problematic i just don't really see why necessarily given that you can have wild undulations in match length especially on the men's side in a tournament anyway and you have if you if you're a man and you get to the final of a tournament the week before a slam you're jumping from a three-set match to a five-set match in no time but it's hard because as you know I asked a number of the leading players about this there's very little appetite from the women players and I understand that because for them they're already mentally and physically exhausted and so saying to them do you want to do more of that doesn't really appeal but that's why it shouldn't you know it's not necessarily they're not necessarily the best people to ask on it because yeah I get from their perspective they're playing enough tennis they don't want to play more but but it should be a sort of conceptual practical question above and beyond what any individual exactly that happens to be playing at that moment in time should I mean Iga Shontek et al are only playing best of three now because of as you say customs that were set 100 you know 100 years ago like it's but in the set you know olympics until 1984 the biggest distance women were able to compete in was 1500 i mean how crazy is that or that where we are at wimbledon until 77 i think there couldn't be ball girls couldn't be ball boys and it wasn't until 85 they could be on the center core i mean these things all sound ludicrous but you would hope in 50 or 100 years, it will sound as ludicrous to be saying, well, women played three, they played a different format.

36:44I mean, why? That would seem, I think that if you actually step back, it does seem crazy.

36:49Matt Roberts: I don't know what you all think about this. I personally, as much as I desperately want change, the one thing I don't want is for anybody to go, okay, well, we'll have a best of five-set women's final. I think that's terrible.

37:06David Law: And nothing else. and nothing else

37:08Matt Roberts: yeah just a best of five set women's final because imagine today that it was not only Amanda Nisimov's first ever grand slam final but it's also her first ever best of five set match well and also and then she's a kind of like playing to prove herself and the whole sport and her whole sex yeah that's a lot of pressure on one player

37:27Catherine Whitaker: I think it's so unlikely that we see best of five women's matches. Ever? I just don't think that's the direction of travel. I think if we're going to even it up, it's going to be men playing best of three.

37:47Matt Roberts: But do you think that will actually ever happen after what we saw in Paris three weeks ago?

37:53Catherine Whitaker: That's the thing that bothers me the most about the inequality, that idea of there being this cap on the women in terms of being able to play those sorts of epics. because I agree, honestly, that Davenport-Williams match is the first tennis match I ever watched. And it got me into the sport. But I know that it didn't have that effect on maybe as many people. People don't bring that match up. I'm always bringing that match up because it was incredible.

38:26Matt Roberts: Matthew behind the camera is nodding harder than he's ever nodded before.

38:31Catherine Whitaker: But when people cite the best matches, they so often cite the five setters. And that bothers me. But I don't know. I just think we're going towards more best of three than more best of five. And honestly, the thing of freezing in a final and that awkwardness, I get it. Look, I hated what happened today in that sense. But I do also think that's sport. I know it's hard to come back from that deficit and when you're playing like that, but there are also lots of examples where someone has started slowly in best of three and come back. There is time. I know it's not as much time as best of five, and I know that that inequality bothers me, but it doesn't bother me the fact of having best of three set finals for that reason.

39:29Catherine Whitaker: There is time. it's hard but there is time and yeah I just think I just think if that's the argument to play best of five I'm not I'm not quite on board with it I'm more on board with the argument in terms of missing out on that that epic quality that we have but I just don't think we're I just don't think we're going that way I also don't think we necessarily should go that way but there is a way of still having net a net reduction in tennis matches and getting the three and five equality if you were to do the first four rounds as three and three and the you know that then that would i i i completely agree matt i think everyone you talk to clearly there should be less five

40:11David Law: best of five which i agree with you could elevate the latter stage yeah exactly you do it that way

40:15Matt Roberts: but i still think it's um it's very unlikely i basically go with any proposal that could be adopted tomorrow that where the men and the women play the same format i mean i'd probably go with fast four if they were playing the same format like just it's it's ludicrous sort it out i don't think you would i would okay i'd be in a bad mood about it but i would begrudgingly accept it um but look i i agree with you matt like i would be part of a big part of why i wince at finals like we had today obviously part of it is just the human level of watching amanda and some over go through that experience but it's the fact that i know a lot of the world is going oh women's tennis or looking at it is this is bad news for women's tennis and honestly i wish we lived in a world where a final like today wasn't bad news for women's tennis but women don't have the luxury of not representing their sex and women's sport every time they step out onto the court and that's a fact and it's depressing and if there were also men that were losing Grand Slam finals in 57 minutes love and love, I would feel less sad and uncomfortable about what we witnessed today, I would still feel extremely sad for Amanda Renesimova but it would feel different I think, so fast forwards guys let's start the campaign

41:41David Law: we're starting with the mixed doubles and the US Open Catherine Two days to shape the future Yeah

41:49Matt Roberts: Anything more we want to say about Today's final before we Move on to other things

41:54Catherine Whitaker: Just a few stats on On Igor Shiontek which I think really Just show What an amazing achievement This is for her She's the youngest woman to win majors On all three surfaces since Serena In 2002 And what I find so interesting about that is that what we talked about, like, it's a narrative change. You know, we come out of this Wimbledon with a narrative change on the women's side and maybe we will tomorrow on the men's side as well. If Sinner gets a win over Alcaraz, that will, like, change the narrative. I just think Fiontek winning Wimbledon, that's cool. Like, that's really exciting for the tour.

42:33Catherine Whitaker: Like, you know, she's now one slam away from the career slam. I love it when players are chasing a career slam. I love it. I was genuinely wondering whether she would do the career slam. We still have to wonder. The Australian Open might be something that she doesn't get her hands on, but now it feels like something she probably will do.

42:51Matt Roberts: Some take an Alcaraz, both chasing career slam in Australia. Get me there.

42:55Catherine Whitaker: I always thought Wimbledon would be the hardest one for her to win. So for her to get it now just sort of changes what we thought we knew, which I just think is really, really interesting. And now she's obviously won her first six major finals, which only Monica Seles on the women's side has done in the open era. Amazing. And like we've just spent like a whole podcast talking about how hard Grand Slam finals are and they are really hard. She's never lost one. Like that's crazy. That's so good. She also just on the turnaround from Paris point, remember how bad her serve was at times of Ron Agariz and in that Sabalenka match was getting absolutely feasted on to the point where I was like, I just don't think she can win Grand Slam if she's going to keep serving like this well she's come here served incredibly higher proportion of service games won than anyone it was 90 going into this match and that so that would have gone up slightly as well so that's a pretty incredible turnaround and i know surface is partly to do with that but relatively speaking as well she's served better than anyone it's pretty amazing yeah on a

44:00Matt Roberts: surface where the serve is more important than anywhere else yeah great point well congratulations and Ziga Shiontek, a Wimbledon champion. I think she's going to, I hope she's going to really enjoy this one and get a bit of breathing space to properly process it.

44:16David Law: You get more time, don't you? Obviously she won the US Open as well, but I remember that tournament even felt a little bit stressful in some ways for her because she's not a massive New York fan. I think she's going to really, really enjoy this and be able to go home, have some time off and properly let this soak in it's it's a huge deal sorry ibiza well maybe it also must be quite nice to actually be able to celebrate a grand slam and unlike the us open that they were all in ron and garris where you celebrate but then you do have in the back of your mind yeah i've got wimbledon a few weeks like this one there's that bit of a bigger gap and you know it's not such a sea change uh so yeah hopefully you're right hopefully she can enjoy it we always immediately asked her about wimbledon in her french open victory press conferences brutal

45:04Matt Roberts: Brutal sport. Congratulations, Igor Shiantic.

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47:20Matt Roberts: Some other finals that were played today. before the women's singles final the men's doubles final Julian Cash and Lloyd Glasspool beating David Pell and Rinki Hijikata 6-2, 7-6 to become the first all British team and this stat floored me to win the men's doubles here since 1936 I've seen individual British men have won it but no all British team since 1936 89 years of hurt and you know that final was

47:55David Law: did you say 6-2 first set?

47:57Matt Roberts: 6-2, 7-6

47:58David Law: so first set was 6-2 I think it was a break at the start of the second as well in about 38 minutes that was very nearly looking like the same sort of story as this one in terms of time on court and then the next thing I know Cash and Glasspool were serving 5-6 down trying to get it into the tyre break there

48:17Matt Roberts: and talk about a grass court season 14 match winning streak for them. They won Queen's, Eastbourne and Wimbledon. Like the perfect grass court season. Unbelievable. Bet they'll go to Ibiza.

48:31David Law: Wimbledon chartering a single plane.

48:34Matt Roberts: Get me on it. Are you going to Ibiza? Maybe. That's where the champion's ball is. Some wheelchair tennis results today. The incredible Martin de la Puente and Ruben Spargeron Bargeren beat Alfie Hewitt and Gordon Reid 7-6, 7-5 for their first wheelchair doubles title as a team. This match played on court one with a great crowd. I watched all of the second set, the latter stages of the first set. It was an incredible watch. I've never seen anybody be more intense than Alfie Hewitt on a tennis court, and Martin de la Puente was that today. He was just not going to have that title prized from his hands.

49:16Matt Roberts: like this whole match was Martin de la Puente's it was incredible really like they served for the first set did de la Puente and Spargeron and Hewitt and Reid broke them back and took it to a tie break but then a very one-sided tie break Hewitt and Reid went a break up in the second and yet still it just always felt like de la Puente and Spargeron's title in you know Ruben Spargeron bless him owes De La Puente a pint tonight I think like he was unbelievable De La Puente like the combination of power and touch was Alcaraz-esque it's his third major doubles final with three different partners and he had faced Hewitt and Reid in all three of those those finals and it's his second major title after winning the US Open doubles in 2022 so get them on board the plane to Ibiza.

50:15Expensive pints there by the way.

50:17Matt Roberts: In Ibiza?

50:19David Law: Shout out to the camera people on that court. You know they have that ground level camera in the corner. I'm not sure how they do it because they're not on the court physically. They must be poking them through the backstop. But the players were virtually colliding with it as they were hitting these shots and you saw the physicality and the trajectory of these shots that they were whipping. And it's very often not a backhand, it's a reverse forehand, the way they grip the racket. It's astonishing, the strength and the timing in the forearms there.

50:51Matt Roberts: Yeah, Alfie Hewitt's backhand is... I just don't know where the power comes from. Well, I do. I mean, it's the core strength and upper body, but it's unbelievable. in the women's wheelchair singles final 26 year old Ziyang Wong stunned Yui Kimiji 3 and 3 look an incredible performance from Wong who beat Dida De Hote earlier in the tournament and also beat Dida De Hote in Roland Garros Dida De Hote I understand isn't quite physically herself shed surgery earlier in the year I think she's expected to get back to more where she was before. So this might be one of those little window periods in women's wheelchair tennis.

51:37Matt Roberts: But boy, is Xi and Wong taking advantage of that. Yui Kimiji, the top seed, world number one, was going for the career golden slam today and was outplayed three and three by Wong. And she'll have to wait another year, Kimiji, to try and complete that career golden slam. And look, I hope she does it. I hope she has a Jana Novotna moment. It felt a bit like this was her chance. I hope I'm wrong, but yeah. It's a bit like watching Alfie Hewitt last year.

52:11David Law: Kind of, finally somebody beat Takita Huda. And he didn't have to face him in the final. I mean, I know he's beaten him before, but the young ones are coming through. You're getting older.

52:22Matt Roberts: It's not going to get any easier. It's been an incredible year for Kimi Ji. She's had this incredible resurgence, but that's why I say this felt like the one. She's back to world number one. But look, Xi and Wong is incredible. First ever wheelchair major title winner from China, so that is absolutely huge. And the quad wheelchair doubles was won by Guy Sassen and Niels Vink, 6-3, 6-2, over Donald Rampardi and the Brit Gregory Slade. Niels Vink will also play in the quad wheelchair singles final tomorrow against Sam Schroeder. That will be a 39th career meeting between the two. Niels Vink is only like 21.

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54:44Matt Roberts: Right, on to tomorrow, the final day of Wimbledon 2025. There's obviously the women's doubles final. There is also the men's singles final and look, a number of other finals as well. But let's talk men's singles final, Carlos Alcaraz against Yannick Sinner. Charlie, do you fancy playing the percentage game? well I'm obviously sticking with Alcaraz not winning the tournament he's gonna lose early

55:13David Law: you've got to go with that if he if he loses in the final do you still take some credit there well in the sense the initial premise was from when we spoke a few weeks ago and it was it was post-queens and the premise was he's in a much better place than he was last year doesn't that you know does that make him borderline unbeatable and my point was that he is in a better place but his two biggest rivals are in a way better place certainly one of them Djokovic and Sinner I felt was in a way better place in the sense that he had another year on the grass and he felt he feels like a player who's kind of built incrementally each year and I'm going to stick with that thesis and say that you know Sinner will be a far far harder opponent for him than Djokovic on one leg was last year and you know Alcora obviously Alcora has won that match comprehensively it got a bit sticky at the end I don't know I obviously Alcaraz is the favorite and maybe I'm saying partly what I want to happen because I do think for the sake of tennis for that great rivalry Sinner does I wanted Alcaraz to win in Paris because I felt if he doesn't then it's three slams in a row for Sinner and he's the world number one all of a sudden that feels a bit in balance well now I feel if Alcaraz keeps winning it's a bit in balance it reminds me a little bit of in 2008 you were desperate for one of Federer or Nadal to get the kind of away win because it was getting a little bit repetitive of okay well so Nadal wins in Paris every year Federer wins in Wimbledon every year and winning one against the head was obviously huge and I feel like Sinner needs to do that for the sake of the rivalry in the sport more generally he needs a win against Alcaraz doesn't he Yannick Sinner otherwise I think it's not far off become because at this point you can still rationalize it be like but well they've had you know some of those matches have been crazily close obviously the most recent one could not have been closer but um yeah you know you don't want it to become a too big a factor you know rivalries you don't want to be too imbalanced one way or the other matt look i know i had a feeling for this moment today

57:23Catherine Whitaker: i've got a feeling for sin up thank you i i just keep thinking of i just keep thinking about the lead he took at Roland Garros and how it took Alcaraz magic dust to get that one back and I know that that's Alcaraz's thing he keeps doing that and therefore we should predict it and I do always predict it, I do always say Alcaraz I just think it it sort of takes that level of brilliance and genius to be able to beat Yannick Sinner and look if anyone can it probably is Alcres and actually on the grass I do think the grass rewards some of the stuff that Alcres likes to do to throw him off, the net rushing, the drop shots, the slice that slice on defence all that stuff is perhaps amplified here and that's why I think Alcres does go in as the favourite but I don't know I think Sinner will sense will know the importance of trying to get a win as well.

58:29I just think Sinner's going to bring it.

58:32Catherine Whitaker: And I've said Alcruz all the way through. I will not be shocked if Alcruz wins. But right now, I think my pick is Sinner. And I wasn't expecting to say that.

58:45Matt Roberts: And folks, Matt needs a win. No one needs a win like Matt Roberts right now.

58:50Catherine Whitaker: Alcruz winning is always great. Always. but Sinner winning would as I said and as Charlie said change the narrative a bit which would be fascinating

59:02Matt Roberts: David

59:03David Law: I personally don't really think of the wins in a row that Al Krause has had against Sinner as being a big deal really because most of them don't feel like they've been in the biggest matches, the most recent one yes but I share your view, well hold on a minute, he was two sets to love up and 5-3 up. He virtually beat him, didn't he? So it's rabbits out of hat stuff from Alcraz. I think there are a number of scenarios that I could see being completely plausible. My expectation is actually that they both bring it because I will never forget the first game they played in Paris. It was one of the best first games, one of the best first points of a Grandstand Final I've ever seen.

59:47David Law: I was so excited when I saw that first point. And I just hope they come out like that again. And I'm going to just reserve, I'm going to give myself a night to think about it again and give myself license to maybe give a definitive on tomorrow's preview show. And it's not just a teaser. Good tease, David. But it is a partial teaser. But I think there is, one of these days, I think there is going to be a Grand Sam final that Yannick Sinner wins against Carlos Alcraz in straight sets. I think it'll be four. I think tomorrow will be four. I think he'll go two sets up but Alcaraz will win the third and everyone will think, oh, it's happening again, and then Sinner will slam his foot down and win the fourth.

1:00:26I think that's a very good case that you make there

1:00:30David Law: because the manner in which Sinner plays, the reliable ground strokes, the reliable returns and serves, the bullets down the line, the constantly asking questions, if Alcaraz is not on it, he could find him, a bit like today, he could find himself miles behind before he gets going and then sprinkle the magic dust and come, you know, a bit like when he played Zverev in Australia at that time. Yeah. I think, I still think it's a final, he'll turn up more likely. But if his serve's a bit off, you know, his serve was amazing against Fritz early on. And if he serves like that, then he doesn't get out of sight.

1:01:10David Law: That's the thing, Sinner doesn't get out of sight. But he might not be on his serving game. And I think Sinner can hurt him on the return. big time.

1:01:18Matt Roberts: Have we got three Sinners here?

1:01:20David Law: I'm telling you tomorrow what I think. Okay. What do you think?

1:01:24Matt Roberts: I think Alcaraz. I just always think Alcaraz because I think he's, when he shows up, he's the best player. And he shows up in Grand Slam finals. I find it very, I find all of your points incredibly compelling and I will not be surprised at all if Sinner wins, but I just find it very hard not to pick Alcaraz. It's the beauty of it, isn't it? These two,

1:01:44David Law: they just give you so much possibility

1:01:47Catherine Whitaker: it's amazing that we're getting it off the back of that epic I mean it's rare as well isn't it 2016 Australian Open and French Open was the last time you had men's Grand Slam finals the same back to back and even in the Federer and Nadal I think the last time Federer and Nadal it must have been 2008 I don't think those two would have done it since Nadal and Djokovic had a mad run of four in a row Djokovic won the first three and in the women's it's a long time since it happened. But yeah, I keep thinking the same thing. I'm just like, I can't believe we get this. It feels almost spoiled.

1:02:21David Law: It's such a lovely combination. I personally didn't really enjoy Nadal against Djokovic over the years very much. I used to find them quite arduous matches to watch. I enjoyed Nadal, Federer. I loved Sampras and Agassi. That was the one I always loved to watch. And Borg and McEnroe. And I think Sinner and Alcres have got that.

1:02:42Catherine Whitaker: We watched Agassi-Shelton yesterday, didn't we, David? We did. Really?

1:02:46David Law: YouTube just keeps presenting with stuff.

1:02:48Matt Roberts: It's YouTube algorithm has got him absolutely nailed.

1:02:52David Law: This morning I watched a 20-minute reel of Sampras against McEnroe in the 1990 US Open. Oh, it's so great. That's a great crossover. I don't think of those two sort of overlapping. It's fantastic. And now it's presented me with the Sampras-Agassi final of the same year that I'm just going to go and watch that.

1:03:12Matt Roberts: Charlie discovered the same BBC British tennis documentary yesterday that we watched the other night, David. What do you think? Well, I mean, I think a lot, there's a lot that gets said about AI and computer, you know, oh, it's so scary that my computer knows me so well. There are also times when you're like, I'm really, YouTube, you know me so well, and I'm grateful. Thank you for 20 minutes of pure joy. 1994, can Britain produce a good tennis player is sort of the premise. I mean, you've got to, it's just incredible. It's jaw on the floor is the best anything I've seen this fortnight. If you want to see Tim Hemman boxing, if you want to see Tim Hemman like Zinedine Zidane headbutting a...

1:03:53Karate champion.

1:03:54Matt Roberts: A karate champion. Yeah. At what point did they say, now headbutt me? That footage exists on YouTube. It's honestly incredible. And the karate champion sort of then turns on Tim and starts kind of hitting him a bit as well to be like, you've got to learn to take punishment on the court. Yeah. Amazing. You'd get reported if you did that training. It's amazing. Maybe we'll pop a link in the show notes. You won't regret it. You will not regret those 20 minutes of your life. Okay, David, you're exempt until tomorrow. Let's get a, you think, Sinner and Four. Definitive prediction. First two, then Alcres gets the third and then Sinner fourth.

1:04:30Matt Roberts: Okay, I appreciate your punchiness, Charlie. That is very, very welcome here on the Tennis Podcast. we'll be back tomorrow as David has teased with our pre-men's final preview that will be at 3pm local time obviously it was supposed to be at midday today and then we changed it at 3pm to give Matt time to have a nap, I had a nap as well and actually we realised this is a great time to do this show so thank you Matt

1:04:58Catherine Whitaker: you are welcome

1:05:00Matt Roberts: so we're going to do it at 3pm tomorrow as well and then of course we'll be back after the final to talk about it. And hopefully Matt will be feeling better.

1:05:11Catherine Whitaker: I think I'm confident.

1:05:13Matt Roberts: You're confident that it can only get better from here?

1:05:15Catherine Whitaker: I'm confident that tomorrow will be better than today.

1:05:17Matt Roberts: Right. Okay. Folks, we have a mascot for today's show. In fact, we have two. We have Tito and Spritz, owned by Sean Frost. Tito is three years old and Spritz is two years old. And they are long-haired chihuahuas that Sean's husband, Kenny, and Sean got to expand their family. Oh, that's lovely. They love tug-of-war with squeaky toys and games of chase in the park. They're also now older siblings to Jake and Jack. Jake is one and Jack is a baby. Our human baby additions to the family. Wowza. Tito and Spritz stay just close enough to the babies to catch any food that falls from the high chairs. Very relatable stuff.

1:05:59Matt Roberts: but just far away, far enough away to avoid any tail pulling yes, there was a big process of Nina learning to stroke Billie Jean very nicely, which she does now they're best of friends, it's lovely and like their dads, says Sean, they like Goff and Alcaraz big day, coming up for Tito and Spritz tomorrow wishing you luck, lovely dogs we're live so I can't just spend the next two and a half minutes looking at their faces but that's what I would like to do hello to our mascots Phoebe, Maisie and Roger hello to you, hello to our top folks and executive producers Greg, Chris and Jeff Matt do you have shout outs in you?

1:06:43Catherine Whitaker: I do we have Bob Seifert from Boston, Massachusetts

1:06:50Matt Roberts: hello Bob

1:06:52Catherine Whitaker: Bob says I'm retiring in June so

1:06:56Matt Roberts: a couple of weeks ago

1:06:57Catherine Whitaker: and my gift myself is four days at Wimbledon very good he said he'd be wearing his in the mix t-shirt oh Bob I hope he had a great time

1:07:07Matt Roberts: like Bob Bryan who I can only assume won the Legends doubles title with Mike because obviously yeah

1:07:16Catherine Whitaker: they beat who was it they played for the day Cabal and Farah and I was like that feels like the doubles draw

1:07:24David Law: and like the late great Bob Brett yes he's just come up in the chat what a coach he was

1:07:31Matt Roberts: absolutely thank you Bob hope you enjoyed your Wimbledon

1:07:34Catherine Whitaker: we've also got Robin Hodge from Melbourne hi Robin

1:07:39David Law: Robin Harsa

1:07:41Catherine Whitaker: yeah so this is Robin with a Y and Robin's actually come up with Robin Maudsley a WTA player in the 60s

1:07:50Matt Roberts: and that's Robin with a Y I love the name Robin with a Y

1:07:54David Law: I don't know whether the spelling was with a Y but there was a brilliant tennis writer from the New York Times great friend of Mary Carrillo Robin Finn who covered the sport for many many years I remember

1:08:07Matt Roberts: very good we've got a Robin Montgomery coming up in the chat Robin Sirdling excellent great stuff thank you Robin

1:08:17Catherine Whitaker: and finally we have Stacey from Queens, New York. Stacey Alistair.

1:08:23Matt Roberts: Yeah, this is our second Stacey of the week.

1:08:25Catherine Whitaker: It is. And this Stacey shares a birthday with Pamela Howard-Shriver. Oh, 4th of July.

1:08:34Matt Roberts: Stacey, what a birthday.

1:08:36David Law: And Nick Imerson of the ITF had sent me last week when we had tennis Stacey's, he sent me Stacey Margolin, who was an ex of John McEnroe.

1:08:49Matt Roberts: circa like where did she fit into the timeline

1:08:56David Law: that's all i have i will google it afterwards that is incredible from both you and from from

1:09:02Matt Roberts: nick imerson of the itf who's always sending us i know it's great nick's the best yeah that's absolutely lovely uh incredible stacy bob and robin robin stacy bob and robin thank you ever so much. We'll be back tomorrow just to mention by the way that before the men's singles final it's the women's doubles final that's at 1pm local time it's Shea and Ostapenko against Kudmatova Mertens. What do we think Ostapenko thought of today?

1:09:33David Law: Can I play the winner?

1:09:37Matt Roberts: And on court number one tomorrow if you have a ticket for that it's Takedo Oda against Alfie Hewitt I think that's what I'll be watching at 11am

1:09:45David Law: Yeah me too yeah

1:09:47Matt Roberts: god he's desperate to beat Takedo Oda isn't he Alfie Hewitt good luck ok so that is all coming up tomorrow we'll be here with our preview show at 3pm local time and then we'll be back at the end of play with our final tennis podcast live from Wimbledon Charlie thank you very much for your time this evening thank you very much one more day for your big Al Karaz prediction to come true still doubling down that's the thing to do when you make a big prediction. Don't back down, double down.

1:10:17David Law: And then just keep quiet afterwards. Yeah, absolutely.

1:10:22Matt Roberts: Matt, bed beckons. Tomorrow is a new day. For you and Amanda both. David, thank you for keeping the ship afloat today. That wasn't that bad, was I? We just feel for you. We just feel bad. Lots of people commenting on how pale you look. Oh, great. He's alright, folks. Sleep and drugs are a wonderful things. People bounce back. We will be back tomorrow live from Wimbledon for the final time. Please do join us then. And thank you for listening and for watching. Bye for now.

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