Off season intrigue grows

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1:56Matt Roberts: well hello and welcome to the tennis podcast our penultimate tennis podcast of 2025 our final tennis podcast before christmas how festive are we feeling david law oh seven and a half out of

2:13David Law: 10 festiveness at the moment um but you know thought i'd get this out the way first and then i'm going to go the full nine get this out of the way before i let myself feel festive that's a real

2:25Matt Roberts: that's a real incentive for everyone to keep listening uh matt let's have some let's have some vibes well big of you to say and sort of guarantee that it's our penultimate podcast of 2025 in the week of an emergency episode. I'm feeling very on alert at the moment for emergency tennis news. Stuff does seem to be trickling through right now. But I'm feeling pretty festive. It's our last podcast. It's our penultimate until Andy Murray announces that he's coaching Carlos Alcaraz and then we'll see you on YouTube. All bets are off.

3:10Matt Roberts: that's probably where we should start isn't it kind of pick up where we left off from our last emergency podcast talking about the shock news that Juan Carlos Ferreiro and Carlos Alcaraz would no longer be working together for anybody that didn't hear our podcast at the time of recording we had some reporting um matt and david had been speaking to spanish contacts um so there were there were there were bits and bobs of substance but frankly that podcast was was a lot of speculation kind of educated speculation we had matt futterman of the athletic on the show educated speculation based on what we know about that relationship what we know about Carlos Alcaraz and his team set up and the involvement of his family and also what we know about coaching relationships in general, particularly ones that are formed in childhood and have to go through a kind of evolution process as the child grows into an adult and in this case an adult superstar at the top of the game.

4:22Matt Roberts: Well, we now have some more solid reporting to go with that speculation, some of which renders the speculation utterly redundant and some of which somewhat confirms some of our speculation, I would say. yeah I think so it doesn't strike me as like there's been a huge rift between Carlos Alcraz and Juan Carlos Ferreiro you know I think that was pretty evident probably in the statements that they both put out you know there was a lot of love there for each other in those statements I think the reporting is hinting at more tensions between Ferrero and the Alcarez camp more generally, obviously of which Carlos Alcarez is very much part.

5:20But the wider Alcarez camp seem to be the ones mostly sort of implicated here. Reporting from Ángel García Muñiz, who's a very prominent Spanish journalist.

5:37Matt Roberts: This is why I had Matt do this section. yeah mine would have been an interesting pronunciation wouldn't it sorry matt go ahead he works for coppe the radio station in spain and i've also seen some of this reporting backed up in clay magazine as well um kind of that sort of carlos and his team have made significant efforts recently to establish murcia as their operational base promoting the Alcaraz Academy where we've seen Alcaraz training this week with Flavio Caballi. Caballi seemingly giving Alcaraz piggybacks around the court has been some content that I've seen dropping out of the Alcaraz Academy this week.

6:21Sort of pushing for that to be the base and for Ferreira to kind of relocate his team over there rather than the other way around. And also kind of as Matt Futterman very much suspected a few economic expectations in this contract that apparently he was sort of unwilling to meet with, you know, I suppose the Accra's entourage probably wanting to give him slightly less than he wanted. So that seems to be the picture, that there was some disruption there. there was also some reporting in Marker that Ferreira only had 48 hours to actually sign the contract that was given to him. And honestly, all of this kind of reporting makes me feel worse about it.

7:15You know, like I think I think the I could kind of get my head around it if it was kind of what we were speculating in terms of Alcaraz has decided that he totally needs a new guy for this next stage of his career. And Ferreira been brilliant to get him to this point. But now he needs to kind of, you know, cut loose from that sort of father figure in Ferreira and go to someone else. And, you know, if it was sort of part of Alcaraz really growing up and making that decision the best for himself, I could have understood it, I suppose. I think part of that is in here, because I think it does strike me that maybe Alcaraz really, really would have fought for Ferreira, you know, if he did desperately want him to come on and if he had the power to do so.

8:12But this sort of situation, this sort of falling out with the team or tension with the team, maybe falling out is not quite right because a lot of Alcaraz's other coaches and physios and trainers are attached to the Ferreira Academy and they're staying on. So there's not been a sort of total breakdown of relations. But this element, Juan Carlos and the team and economic problems and logistical problems, I kind of just think surely you can work some of that stuff out if you're still the best guy to be the coach. So, yeah, I'm not feeling great about it a few days on. I was really shocked at the time, but trying to explain it and reason it.

8:53and now it's not leaving a great taste.

9:00Matt Roberts: Yeah, I don't know what you think, David. I had exactly the same thoughts as Matt. After our emergency pod on, when was it, Wednesday, sort of my shock was slightly tempered by some reassuring thoughts from Matt Futterman in particular about how this might be actually a very, although sort of turbulent in the short term, in the medium to long term, quite a necessary healthy step in terms of Alcaraz's maturing from boy to man and him taking agency of his own career. You know, I'm always sort of slightly irked out by the shadowy figures in the background that seem to be pulling strings, particularly, you know, I feel more uncomfortable with female players when it's invariably sort of older men in the background.

9:55Matt Roberts: But still, you know, the men are still sort of young men with minimal experience of the world and sort of shadowy figures in the background pulling their strings always feels a bit uncomfortable to me. And I had thought, I thought it seemed really plausible that this was a step away from that sort of situation and Alcaraz taking more control of himself. But this reporting, as Matt's laid out there, kind of suggests potentially the opposite. OK, it's his father that seems to be playing a big role who, you know, that's sort of slightly different in terms of a shadowy figure. But I still instinctively see sort of overbearing parental involvement in tennis players' lives and careers as a red flag, even if the parenting question seems untoxic and unproblematic.

10:49Matt Roberts: I don't know. What do you think?

10:52David Law: Instinctively similarly, I feel. But at the same time, I do think you can read the decision in two ways. I think you could look at it as him not just wanting to go along with what Ferreiro is demanding and continue training at his base. He wants to train at his own base. He wants to train where it suits him. You know, yes, there may be influences there that are overriding Ferreiro's, but perhaps in the end it is Carlos Alcraz's decision. And he's decided, no, this is a red line for me. um it's it's an interesting one the fact that he hasn't ended up going with ferrero i think in itself is is some sign of potential strength um and an independence of of decision making i i i don't i've seen enough of them on the court over the years to think well you seem pretty reliant on this guy to me um and and i would be wary in the short term about expecting an upturn of results i mean look you can't go that much of an upturn can you given how well he's been playing 12 in a row david well that is true um and listen listen i still feel like in the long term he could he i do think he needs to be able to develop as a as a as a young man and as a human being and be able to be more independent from Ferreira.

12:26David Law: I do think that at some point that was going to need to happen. This just feels like a wrench, like he's been wrenched out of that situation, whether it's through his own decision-making or precious or whatever. And I think in the short term, we may find that he has a downwards trajectory for a bit.

12:48Matt Roberts: There is reporting, isn't there? By no means confirmed that he is looking for a direct replacement as head coach. And it's not just a case of Samu Lopez stepping up and everybody sort of taking a promotion. Victor Barber becoming the hitting partner. Here comes Pablo Carrena Busta. He's still waiting by the phone, David. Which is interesting. And the other interesting thing that occurs to me about this situation is Alcaraz isn't playing a warm-up event for Australia, which, you know, fine. Nor is Yannick Sinner. But he's so much better than everybody else besides Yannick Sinner in men's tennis that this could provoke a crisis in Carlos Alcaraz.

13:44Matt Roberts: And we might not really know it until the Australian Open men's final. Because he can beat everybody else in crisis.

13:54David Law: Certainly possible. And equally, he's had runs to Grand Slam finals that weren't like that US Open. And Juan Carlos Ferreira was there. So I don't think we're going to just be able to establish cause and effect immediately and that sort of thing.

14:13Matt Roberts: But we're going to be trying. We'll be trying. That's our trade. We'll be doing it after every other day on the pod.

14:21David Law: I'll be at the front of the queue, Catherine, don't you worry.

14:26Matt Roberts: Yeah. David, I've got on the agenda here just while we're on Alcaraz, David's hair advice for Alcaraz. I don't know what that means. Please, please explain. I'm excited about this. It's been in the agenda for about five days. One day I just opened it up and that had appeared. This show is always one of our most random of the year, isn't it? Our last one before Christmas. I mean, there always ends up being enough content because tennis be tennising. But it's like straggly content. It's random. It's really hard for me as a presenter to segue from one agenda item to the next. Well, well done. this is one of the easier ones David

15:11David Law: yeah look this just dropped on me late one night I was lying in bed and it suddenly occurred to me that Carlos Alcaraz should be making his US Open buzz cut a non-negotiable at the start of every Grand Slam tournament from here on until he loses one because I find him terrifying when he does it. 12 buzz cuts in a row. Yeah, I find it a terrifying look when he first does it. I think it would be the most incredible statement to the rest of the field. Here we go, lads. I'm ready. Let's go. And, I mean, look, he was as awesome as he's ever been at a tennis tournament during that US Open. I really believe that it was a great sort of marine-like statement that I am ready for battle.

16:07David Law: um and i think it got in his own head and he enjoyed it and if i were him i'd be just doing it like tiger woods putting on a red shirt for the final round of a major telling everybody you are about to to be defeated i'd be doing the buzz cut at the start of every grand slam

16:27Matt Roberts: well you might have persuaded me with the tiger woods thing my my counter to you david is isn't the the beauty of it and potentially why it worked so well is because it was organic and, quote, an accident the first time around. Oh, that made it entertaining. So to try and recreate it in a very confected way.

16:45David Law: Oh, I think it's an awesome statement. I genuinely think it would rattle the opposition.

16:55Matt Roberts: I think people would get used to it. Matt, do you have any thoughts on this while I prepare my next segue?

17:07Matt Roberts: it's okay if the answer's no I like David's thinking I don't think he will do that

17:15David Law: I know and then he'll lose and then he'll wish he had anything

17:19Matt Roberts: this isn't making it any easier for our the perils of trying to establish cause and effect in Australia is it we've got another thing to throw into the mix

17:31David Law: exactly so it's just as important

17:34Matt Roberts: if 2025 was the year of David asking players about vegetables can 2026 be the year of David asking tennis players about their hair hashtag journalism

17:48David Law: it's a single use question isn't it

17:53Matt Roberts: so was are you all right with carrots

17:55David Law: well I mean it needed asking this does need asking as well to be fair but I'm not sure I'm going to be doing it we'll see

18:04Matt Roberts: okay moving on uh to a vaguely related uh topic we're going to stay with breakups uh Grigor Dimitrov and Danny Valvedu have parted way after eight years together Matt I think you and I had a similar reaction to this I where have those eight years gone I I've been pretty part time I

18:26David Law: suppose, hasn't it?

18:28Matt Roberts: Has it? Because of Griggles' injuries?

18:31David Law: But also, Valverde was also working with Vavrinka a bit. That's what I was thinking. Surely Valverde has worked with other players in the last eight years. Del Potro, even, I think. Right.

18:41Matt Roberts: But that's what the announcement said. We've had eight years together. I was like, have you?

18:45David Law: I mean, it was Valverde when I asked that, because I could imagine that he might want that to be the narrative, in a way.

18:54Matt Roberts: He's suggesting he's lying on his LinkedIn profile about his time with an employer.

19:00David Law: I know that Dimitrov has really had the feelers out looking for a big new coach. And I think I'm quite pleased about that because I think there's quite a statement to it that he doesn't see himself as in the final throes of his career. it'll be interesting to see who he ends up with because you know I don't think he's reached fruition certainly with the with one or two of the ones that I think he approached but um yeah I I think he needed I think if he's going to make another push he probably needs a another another big statement coach but no I mean to me I mean I know I know they were dividing time but But, I mean, Jamie Delgado was also coaching Grigor Dimitrov, and I didn't sort of see a big announcement about that as such.

19:52David Law: But, yeah, I mean, look, if you have been part of the team in a way, I suppose you do. Obviously, he's friends with him and cares about him. But, you know, I don't think of, oh, big news. Eight years has just ended. That's not what occurred to me.

20:11Matt Roberts: do you think he he does have a last push in him david he only needs one no i mean listen i think somebody might quote squirt out a slam could it be could it be grig or dimitro the thing

20:25David Law: is that i think he showed in the last year that his game hurts still i mean what he did to to Sinner, you can't erase that from memories for two sets at Wimbledon. At a Grand Slam, he's just, he's taking him down. But his body is taking himself down time after time. That is not, I know that this was, that might be slightly freakish to get that kind of injury. But to keep on getting hurt and retiring from major tournaments tells you that when he pushes his body to the absolute limit, something breaks down. If he could sort that out, I do think he's not too old. But, well, the body would tell you otherwise, depending on how often it's breaking down.

21:17David Law: I don't think he's sort of declining as a tennis player. I think he's a real threat still. But, you know, and I think it would have been good for him to... It will be good for him if he gets a coach who can really establish a direction. And I feel like Delgado and Valverdeau, certainly the last couple of years, got the best out of him using his slice. He had the best identity to his game that he's ever had. And I actually think that there was room for more improvement there, certainly with his serve. But at the same time, I don't have any faith in his body at all, I'm afraid, because the evidence suggests there's no reason to.

22:01Matt Roberts: Sorry, Matt, but I just want more of David's takes. Me too. I'm enjoying it. This is what happens when David is, quote, overslept. Before we came on air, David explained that it had too much sleep last night. And I genuinely don't think I've ever experienced a David Law in our 18 years of knowing one another that has had too much sleep. So I just did not know how this pod was going to go. But it's magnificent. yeah and i've i would say i've underslept so the learning here is sleep is good yep well you have been telling me that for years we balance we balance one another out um next next and final split on our agenda slightly different one an extremely surprising one And certainly for me, this was reported by Ben Rothenberg in his sub stack Bounces.

22:59Matt Roberts: Naomi Osaka is leaving the agency that she co-founded with Stuart Duguid. The agency has evolved. If you're thinking, where have I heard that name recently? They are behind the promoters of the Battle of the Sexes. They also represent numerous tennis players, formerly Naomi Osaka, of course, Irina Sabalenka, Nick Kyrgios. It was, I'll repeat, co-founded by Naomi Osaka. This was her agency alongside Stuart Dugard. They left IMG to form this agency. It's being reported by Ben that she's returning to IMG. we don't know why Matt but leaving your own agency feels pretty dramatic to me yeah very I would say and you know again trying to draw cause and effect like you know this is a this is a time where that agency has obviously been in the in the spotlight more than it ever has been it sort of garnered attention at the start of the year when when they got Sabalenko as you said but right now around the battle of the sexes and the and the controversy that that has provoked um you know the timing of this decision by Osaka doesn't feel sort of totally unrelated um certainly from the outside um but at the same time I did see I did see reporting uh from uh jessica shiffer in her substat hardcourt that nick kiros's podcast uh is moving from youtube to tubie is that how you pronounce it which has a distribution deal with his uh podcast production company uh hana kuma which is still owned by naomi asaka so if You sort of think that this is a sort of Osaka totally distancing herself from Nick Kyrgios or wanting to.

25:09I'm not sure that would be entirely true. You know, there are still very much some sort of ties there, but it might be a first move. It might be totally unrelated to the Battle of the Sexes. I don't know. It's just the timing of it.

25:25Matt Roberts: Give it a year and we'll be big on Tubi. I might have learned how to say it.

25:33Matt Roberts: David's big on TikTok.

25:38Matt Roberts: Imagine when overslept David hits TikTok. They won't know what's hit them. What will be clipping up is Danny Valvedue takes and TikTok will be getting them. I like Danny Valvedue. What takes have you got on this, David?

25:53David Law: Actually, he's a lovely player. He's clearly a good operator. But, yeah, I just don't think of him as... We're back on this. It's like a good self-shop for eight years. Do you? I mean, I just don't.

26:11Matt Roberts: I need a Sarka Evolve takes from you now, David, please.

26:16David Law: Well, yeah, I mean, that was, I suppose that is immediately where my mind went, you know, just in terms of the potential cause and effect with the Battle of the Sexes. But even so, you know, that is that's Patrick Moritoglu and and this agency that she's separated from in the last year. And and that and that does feel quite significant on both counts. And my sense is that it's probably probably a good idea. But I don't you know, I mean, look, she's obviously made an absolute fortune with this arrangement. And but I think she probably would have done anyway. I think she's the most incredible athlete and person that brands want to be associated with.

27:04David Law: So I don't think there's any issues with making money. It's how you make it, I suppose, and what you want your setup to be. It's usually the other way around these days. It's usually the player breaking away from the big agency and establishing their own thing. but yeah this is this is quite interesting it does take me back to when I when we interviewed Max Eisenbud from IMG you know how little they panic when somebody leaves because they always feel like they're going to come back eventually or that that you know that they've got confidence in themselves but yeah it'll be interesting one to follow I bet Max Eisenbud and IMG are feeling

27:49Matt Roberts: pretty smug about this. Whatever went down, like this is a massive feather in their cap, isn't it? Massive. Okay, that's it for part one and our breakup segment. We'll be back in part two to talk about a hookup.

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30:50Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast and some more bits and bobs of news. We are, of course, going to talk about some live tennis that has been happening this week. It might have escaped your notice, but the Next Gen Finals has been happening. David's watched some highlights, such as his diligence as a podcaster. So we will cover that, don't worry. We've also got a backhand list update and, most importantly, a one-point slam entry list update. But, as promised, we start with news of a significant get-together in the tennis world. the announcement that Mercedes-Benz are to be a, quote, long-term sponsor of the WTA Tour.

31:37And now the WTA are using very pointedly that wording, long-term partner.

31:45Matt Roberts: Others are reporting that this is a 10-year deal and a hugely significant one financially for the WTA. We knew they were looking for a new premium partner. I think it was pretty widely known that Hologic weren't going to be continuing with their partnership. My understanding is that Mercedes-Benz are putting more money in than Hologic, as much as Hologic seemed like a very natural fit for the WTA and came along at the time and they really needed them. I think that partnership would be broadly considered a success. My read, Matt, on this announcement is that this seems like different gravy for the WTA, this partnership.

32:29Yes, I saw some reporting from Molly McKelvey in her substack saying that her logic was four years and worth$20 million annually, whereas this is thought to be worth upwards of$400 million over 10 years. And, you know, some people are describing this as the biggest deal in women's sports history. You know, like this is this is a different level altogether. And I think, you know, a few years ago, WTA laid out their plan, didn't they, to award equal prize money at the combined events by 2027. and i think this kind of deal makes that much more possible and probable and that's a really and a really really encouraging thing um i think it's going to be february before we see the mercedes uh branding on on the wta events um and there's obviously there's a few wta events that already have car deals you know like um stuttgart has porsche and i think lexus is is involved in quite a few wta events so um i think there's got there's some working out to do in terms of what happens with those tournaments a little bit uh but yeah we're gonna we're gonna start seeing mercedes everywhere and mercedes is a big you know i do associate tennis with mercedes as well and mercedes with tennis you know it's had that long deal with the atp didn't it very much your sort of time at The ATP, I think, David, wasn't it?

34:09Late 90s.

34:10David Law: It used to be called the Mercedes Super 9, is what it used to be called.

34:14Matt Roberts: That was great branding, wasn't it? The Mercedes Super 9. That really had teeth. That stuck. People were calling it that for a very long time. Very visible on the net as well. After it wasn't actually called that anymore.

34:28David Law: That Mercedes star really pops out of the net and just became something you thought of as the net. Yeah.

34:38Matt Roberts: And look, you know, I'm sure they'd have gone with a different partner if they were sticking up. You know, I'm not saying this is necessarily a consideration, but the kudos of that brand wanting to back the WTA in this way, I think, means something and sends a real statement. And it is cool. And look, I know there are kind of negotiations ongoing for the sort of partial merging of the ATP and WCA tours. It's all really knotty and a lot of the sort of language around it is very corporate. So they're starting off by merging their marketing arms. You might hear talk about WCA and ATP ventures. That's the merging element at the moment.

35:33Matt Roberts: and it's seen as a first step towards the final destination being the eventual merging of the tours, although that feels a pretty long way away and the path to that is by no means fully mapped out. But this first step along the path was supposed to be mapped out, I think, and the WTA are now in a very different negotiating position, a very different position of strength to the one that they were in when the terms of that deal would have first have been talked about when they were in a position of relative weakness to the atp and i i do wonder if that'll that'll change things you know the wca can come to the table with their chest puffed out a little bit yeah and just on um from a mercedes standpoint i i i can't know

36:21David Law: exactly what their what the the deciding moment was for them to to decide to commit to this sponsorship i think it's fantastic that they did but it does occur to me that what what an amazing story to be part of if you were the company that got them to equal prize money on the tour um even just cynically as a as a kind of you know positive pr move why why aren't more companies thinking like that you know and if they are kudos to them good for them you know stick your money behind something that makes a real positive message change. And so, yeah, I hope that that's where we are able to end up in a couple of years' time as a result.

37:07Matt Roberts: Absolutely. ATP announcement. They're introducing a heat rule. Don't know what's taken them so long, but they're doing it. Ten-minute breaks there will be during best-of-three-set singles matches in 2026. incredibly similar, to all intents and purposes, pretty much identical to the WTA heat rule, which was established 30 years ago. But, you know, men are strong, Matt, and women are weak. Yep, yep. So.

37:42I remember when the Australian Open introduced it.

37:45David Law: Yeah, the Australian Open in my first year there, maybe they did it because I was there and then they thought, oh, he looks like he needs heat rule. 2003, the wet bulb globe temperature was talked about. Oh, I remember the chat about the wet bulb. Yeah. I still don't really understand it. Anyway, here we are, 22 years on, and the men have seen the state that those players were in in Shanghai and various other tournaments and just thought, OK, well, now we're going to do something. Not before time.

38:22Matt Roberts: Does a wet bulb mean that humidity is factored in and it's not just raw temperature reading? That's what a wet bulb is. Yeah. Okay. Wasn't expecting to say wet bulb so much on this pod. But there we are. Okay. What should we talk about now? What would you like from this? There's no obvious segue to any of these next agenda points. Take your pick. I think there is, Catherine. Staying with the ATP? Should we stay with the ATP? OK. Staying with the ATP, then. Let's talk about the next-gen finals. Had you forgotten they were happening? Yep, me too. They have been happening in Saudi Arabia. It's final year being hosted there in Jeddah.

39:13Matt Roberts: I believe they are looking for a new home for it. I believe that nobody quite knows what that new home will be. I thought the ATP might see sort of Jedder not wanting to renew their hosting of this event as a sort of opportunity to quietly put the next gen finals to bed. But apparently not. It's going to be continuing. So in a year's time, David, you'll find yourself also watching highlights of a pointless tennis event for the sake of podcasting. Tell us everything you gleaned from your highlights.

39:48David Law: well um i can tell you that it it got me it got me quite pumped for tennis again um you know i

39:56Matt Roberts: wasn't really expecting that you know david's a fast four guy now yeah well we all are after

40:02David Law: the mixed doubles remember yes i do think that that has changed my outlook a bit on fast four You know, I now look at it slightly differently.

40:14David Law: But, yeah, I do think the timing of this event is one of the things that is problematic.

40:22Matt Roberts: Well, I believe it is moving next year. The plan is, if they can find a host, it's moving back to the plan. I don't think this is announced, but the plan is for it to move to be prior to Turing.

40:34David Law: There's more sense to that to me. I mean, I realise it's so crowded in there. it's difficult um and look I'd rather than move the whole thing forwards but yeah I mean it's nearly Christmas it doesn't you want to you're in the off season yeah I haven't been seeking out these matches to watch them live and I I feel slightly guilty about that as a person who's co-hosting the tennis podcast but I need a break from the sport really in terms of watching it to get the appetite back but when I put these highlights on and saw Lerner Tien who's who's who's always a great watch you know he he's got to the final and he did actually lose his first round robin match so he ended up having to go through the the most extraordinary of calculations in order to get there but he did um and then he's going to face uh the Belgian player Alexander Blocks who whose highlights I watched several of um because because I don't know that much about him I sort of feel like I know I know who Lerner-Tien is he's been on our screens a lot over the past year he he reached the final a year ago against Joao Fonseca so we we kind of knew a little from him there he's had a he's had a real breakthrough year Blox is is still outside the world's top 100 and has actually played most of his tennis on the challenger circuit he did he did qualify in Cincinnati earlier this year so he's he's he's kind of had a couple of tour wins and lots and lots of challenger match wins but I sort of thought you know I don't think I've really seen much of him play you know I just like to I just like to watch a guy away from the results and just get a sense of who they are as a tennis player and I mean he's 6 '4 he's he's one of those players that rallies with you and then suddenly decides that this is the point the shot on which I end the rally one way or another and it's a forehand and it is absolutely spectacular power that he has on the forehand uh when he really pulls the trigger the the rally will either end on a on a on a winner or an error uh when he decides to go for it sounds fun yeah I mean I I think he is interesting.

42:46David Law: He's an interesting player. He looks a little stiff to me, I would say. He doesn't... I mean, he is 6 '4", but it's a bit kind of Karen Hatchinov-like in a way. I'm not sure... Something sounds less fun. You had Catherine, and then you lost her. But I like the four... And he was coming forwards. There were some rallies he's finishing at the net, but it's more... Whereas with Hatchinov, I think he needs to do more of finishing a rally one way or the other and not just playing the percentages. This guy clearly decides at some point I'm done with percentage tennis and it's going to end on my forehand.

43:27David Law: And I like that.

43:29Matt Roberts: For Lerner, oh, sorry, Matt's coming in with Blocks takes. Well, Blocks has been a name that I've seen a lot. You know, like it's an interesting name, the fact that it ends in an X. I've sort of just been drawn to his name. Junior, I know he's done big things in juniors because I've seen that name. Well, he beat Lerner Tien. You know, when you're looking out for names to be on your radar. This was the 2023 Australian Open boys final and Blox won it. And Blox, I was looking, played doubles that tournament with Fonseca. So it is interesting that, as David was saying, and Fonseca and Tien have made that jump up to the tour level just a little bit quicker than Blocks, but he is very much of that cohort of players and, yeah, certainly one to watch.

44:19He was at the Davis Cup finals that I was at in Bologna. He was part of the Belgian team and he was, you know, he wasn't playing, but I saw him hitting with Zizou Berg the first day I got there. and like easy power for, you know, he's tall, but he's like, he's quite lanky. Like you see, I don't think he's fully filled out his frame yet. But yeah, as David said, he does have big power when he wants to use it. I think he's, and he's got big, quite big serve as well. So yeah.

44:53Matt Roberts: You make him sound like Milos Raonic. Milos Raonic, Karen Hatchinov, get in line to watch Alexander Blocks next year. But I don't know, as much as I haven't been watching the next gen due to its position in the calendar, its taking part in Saudi Arabia, its fast four, it isn't something that I personally am massively drawn to. I do like the idea of it. I like that it exists. And I do think it is a good thing. It's got a good track record as well. All these players, he's got a good track record. I think it works as an event.

45:35David Law: I mean, they've all come through it, haven't they? If you think about it. Sitzabas, Sinner, Alcaraz, Fonseca.

45:41Matt Roberts: Yeah, I've been rude about it. I think this is a weak year for it. This is the least attention I've ever paid to it because a lot of the, you know, men's shit qualified. and, you know, if you've won Miami, you're not playing the next gen. Although apparently the injury that kept him out of the next gen is legit and he was intending to play. I was going to ask you, do you think it's a bit uncool of Lerner Tien to be playing this?

46:11David Law: I don't. Having reached the final last year? I actually quite like it. I mean, Lerner Tien, he's got Michael Chang there as well. And I think that I felt it last year when I know Artifiste didn't end up going on and winning the thing, but he played it two years in a row. And I sort of quite like the idea of somebody just deciding, no, no, I want to have this. I want to tick the box of winning that thing. And I'm sure it's not the money. Well, I mean, it could be the money, but I mean, once you get to this point, I mean, these guys have got a lot of money, but it could well be. no I don't and listen I do feel like the biggest problem to me is where it is in the calendar and obviously where it's being played I'm not a fan of but I think it should be something they want to win as part of the progression I do go back to Majedovic winning it and expecting a lot more of him as a pro and I sort of still hope that that's there but the absolute vast majority of the ones that have won this thing have ended up going and having serious careers so i think it is it is a good indicator um i mean leonard is such an interesting player because he doesn't have the the one shot power he he he beats people in so many different ways and yet you feel like there's there's a vulnerability because of his serve being so attackable.

47:41David Law: And so he's one of the more interesting players around, whereas Blocks is much more out of the standard identikit of a current-day tennis player strapping big lad with a huge shot.

47:54Matt Roberts: You successfully made him sound pretty boring. I've got his measure, David.

47:59David Law: I think you quite enjoy that he's quite up and energetic. You hear a lot from him. I think he's more spectacular than Raonic and Hachinov. There's definitely much more explosiveness to him.

48:14Matt Roberts: OK, I'll give him a go. I'm trying to reel her back in. I've enjoyed seeing, just on social media, just like the first little partnership between Basavredi and Gilles Savara. Gilles Savara has been there. I think I'm excited about that for next season. I believe Basavredi sustained a finger injury prior to taking to the court against Lerner Tien, which made that semi-final much more one-sided than it could have been. I think it was a bit odd. I think he was bleeding and really affected in the match. But maybe it is out there how he sustained that injury. But just an odd one to affect a match in such a big way.

48:57A finger injury sustained before the match had even started. But I think he'd been quite impressive. He's put in a big training block, I know, before this. And, yeah, he's another one who I think, I was probably saying the same thing this time last year. I'm excited to see Basavredi.

49:15Matt Roberts: I'm a Basavredi believer. Right. So let's see it in 2026. Yeah, I'm manifesting for 2026. Any other next-gen takes before I move us on? I am now out. I sense that David might not be No I'm pretty much out Fies was there David I saw Yes Fies was there in a sort of mascot capacity

49:44David Law: Yeah with his afro I was going to say he's an ambassador isn't he Oh yeah And Nadal Good hair though Nadal also was there I hope Fies is able to make a proper go of his career physically i just i'd be it'd be such a blow if he's not i'll be gutted so fingers crossed

50:13Matt Roberts: yeah that is it for part two join us in part three for other stuff ai is only as powerful as the platform it's built into that's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the 14500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.

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51:32Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of the tennis podcast, where we have three more agenda items that have absolutely nothing to do with one another. Goodness knows I'm going to link between them, but we start with huge news. I can't believe I've waited till this far into the podcast to tell you, if you haven't seen already, that Coco Goff, Iger Svjantek and Yannick Sinner have joined the field to play the one-point slam 2026. Matt Roberts, my new Roman Empire, is one of Coco Goff or Iger Svjantek beating Nick Kyrgios in the one-point slam. It's all I can think about. Wow, OK. I always try not to think about Nick Kyrgios.

52:22Matt Roberts: Look, the universe is making it so that I can't not think of Nick Kyrgios. I think it'd be funnier if he lost to, you know, Paul Smith from New South Wales. Absolutely. But I'm trying to have realistic dreams. OK. Well, look, I would get on board with that for sure. I feel a bit stressed on Coco Gough's behalf about the one point slam. That she might double five in the one point slam. No Nix only one serve, isn't it? Might single fault in the one point slam. You know, like, ooh, I just, I think I'd be tense. Do you think Gavin McMillan will be there? I hope not. He better be.

53:06I'm, I don't know, I've been working on a theory that I'm pleased that Gavin McMillan, I think, generally is trying to help, but also I think his presence at matches has made Coco Goss a bit more stressed and in her own head about the serve. Unstressed looking amateur. Yeah, it's just very stressful.

53:27Also, I don't know how I feel about this. I think it's cool for the amateurs that there are better players involved this year. I think if you're an amateur, you'd want to take on the best pros over one point. Not Brazil or Hon. Yeah, it's more fun. But I'm really not interested in seeing Goff, Svantec, one point. no me you know like it's a weird tension with the one point slam in that respect no it feels

53:56Matt Roberts: precarious i'm really really trying to lean into and and you know learning from last year which was going in terribly cynical and coming out with a childlike sense of wonder in life it really changed me the one point slam cynical to evangelical it really taught me a lesson so I'm really trying you know announcements are trying to beat me down again about the one point slam they are trying but I'm trying to counter that by remembering the life lesson that I learned this year so I'm really trying to be positive about it but yes I fundamentally share your anxieties as well yeah I'd eager to take against Coco Gauff in one point or Alcaraz against Sinner in one point I suppose I'd love it I can't wait for all of it I mean again I think I you know I think I prefer that to Omar Jessica against Priscilla Hon over one point but it also just doesn't really that had its own charm it did have its own charm but I don't know like I want to see as many as the of the amateurs against the pros over one point as possible.

55:14That, to me, is the best bit.

55:18David Law: If they could just keep the in-between match faff down a bit, and I'm not hopeful.

55:25Matt Roberts: I fear there's going to be more of that. Yeah. Because it's on the telly. I presume it's going to be on Channel 9.

55:33David Law: Yeah. There's going to be a lot of Todd Woodbridge. No offence, but, you know, chatting to people. I mean, look, he's very good at it, but I don't want to see too much of that.

55:47Matt Roberts: It's not what we're here for, is it? But we'll be in the stadium, so no Tob Woodbridge for us.

55:52David Law: Well, you don't think it'll be on the loudspeaker? I do.

55:56Matt Roberts: We'll be chatting through that.

55:58David Law: OK.

55:58Matt Roberts: I'll be screaming through that. Do you remember me at the last one, Point Slam? Yes, I do, yeah. Vividly.

56:08Matt Roberts: Yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I hadn't, it will be on the loudspeakers, won't it? But yeah, I, yeah, it's going to be good, guys, it's going to be good. Is that all the spots filled or are there still announcements to come? Oh no, I think there's so many to fill. More? I think so. But most of them will be filled by AMS, no, from the qualifiers on the Monday, which is in my diary.

56:34David Law: Is it going to be 128 draws? I could be wrong. You're the one-point slam expert. I thought the final field was going to be more pro-heavy than am-heavy.

56:48Matt Roberts: That is the case. And they haven't announced that many pros, so I think there must still be quite a lot to come. I imagine we will get the announcement of the sensations to come over the next... Okay, Lizette Cabrera still has a chance. Speaking of which, I saw some happy sensation news that Madison Inglis and Jason Kubler are engaged.

57:10David Law: That's nice, isn't it? Oh, lovely. Matt, you and I are going to be watching this whole thing jet-lagged.

57:16Matt Roberts: That should have gone in the hook-ups part of the pod, Matt. You're right. New section. Although, if they're engaged, presumably they hooked up a while ago.

57:31Yep.

57:34Matt Roberts: next agenda item bearing absolutely no correlation to the previous one backhand list update for the new year Matt this was announced in Wrexham but you're ready to bring it to the wider public yeah Wrexham have had their two month exclusive and I just thought it was it was necessary to update the people about the quite drastic move that I made in Wrexham as we head into the new season. I came up with a solution that I'd been butting up against very regularly now that Amanda Nisimova is such a dominant force on the tour and playing everyone so regularly. And I've said it many times, I was confronted by the fact that actually it's been a list of one.

58:27and when Amanda Nisimova has played Andrava, for example, another member of the backhand list, I've just realised that Amanda Nisimova has sort of outgrown the backhand list, we could say. So I'm trying to admit to a mistake, I'm trying to grow, I'm trying to evolve and I'm formalising something that I've felt for a while and that is that Amanda Nisimova has been elevated above the backhand list simply the backhand as we refer to her anyway um sort of it's a sort of yoda-like position that she assumes you know sort of backhand master and everyone else is a is a sort of backhand knight or padawan in training you know do you see what i'm doing here so I've officially elevated Amanda Anissimova to the backhand opening up a spot on the backhand list because that will remain a list of five and I also bumped off Belinda Bencic mostly for reasons of using her protected ranking to play mixed doubles with Alexander Zverev I will admit it wasn't a hugely heavy backhand decision but it did influence me that.

59:48Look, it's your list, Matt. It's my list. So that actually opened up two spots on the backhand list to join Coco Goff, Mira Andreva and Maya Joint and I elevated from the watch list to the list Victoria Mboko and Emma Raducanu for 2026. So that's the announcement, that's the picture heading into the new year and I feel very comfortable with it.

1:00:17Matt Roberts: It's a very young, average age, your squad age. It's like the anti-Fulham.

1:00:28Matt Roberts: Got a lot of longevity in those legs and backhands.

1:00:33David Law: How long, Matt, do you give a player to prove themselves worthy of a place on the list? My question comes up because what if you see an amazing backhand from a player you'd not really seen close up before during the Australian Open? A bit like when Victoria Mboko came to our awareness last year. But you can't just think, oh, well, there's a great one. On she goes. See you later, Elena Rebacca. I mean, what happens? There's no rule. you know um as always with the backhand list it is it is a feeling and i would say my joint was the most impulsive backhand list decision i'd ever made that was a that was quite an in the moment decision watching her uh backhand we remember we were watching that eastbourne final in the in the wimbledon press room and there was that incredible tie break it was just it was just great fun um and and joint got herself on the list there and then um but normally normally you would be put on watch list status and then then you're in a chance of joining the big leagues and that's unpublished isn't it that's we don't even know it's unpublished it's it's not restricted to five um if you if you leave the backhand list you automatically join the watch list he's loosening

1:02:02Matt Roberts: the parameters, isn't he? You notice that, David? No.

1:02:07David Law: No, I'm not. I also think there's an element of crowd pleaser about my adjoint. An element of what? Crowd pleaser.

1:02:16Matt Roberts: You think he's trying to please Australians?

1:02:18David Law: Well, you know, I think he was a bit shaken. Last year.

1:02:22Matt Roberts: We all saw him at half-time at the Melbourne live show. Yeah. His crisis of confidence about his appeal in Australia. We've got to win them round. Not related to why we're not doing a Melbourne live show this year. No. To be clear. Yeah, because you did win them round with a prediction that Alexei Popperin was going to win the Australian. We had a lovely time. We had a lovely time. We had an amazing time.

1:02:51David Law: It was great. We did have a really lovely time. We need a break.

1:02:57Matt Roberts: last agenda point for today's show the bombshell news that 50 year old Stan Morinka will play his last year on tour no he's not but he is

1:03:11David Law: he's in his 40s

1:03:12Matt Roberts: I think he's 41 he's old he's old for a tennis player 2026 will be his last year on tour it's not a bombshell agenda point to end on is it 40 41 year olds to to end career in a year's time uh but but there you go so he's gonna do the

1:03:34David Law: farewell tour thing david 41 in march he is um and i am personally quite quite happy he's doing it this way this is kind of what i thought no that jokovic should be doing and listen if jokovic wants to have three more years and thinks he can, fine. But I also think it would be a good way for him to go out. And I really think it's a good way for Wawrinka to go out because he's had a couple of years where he's not really been able to be a force like he used to. But he loves it. He's kept on wanting to see what boundaries he can push. And fair play to him. He can play as long as he likes. But I think what this does is it gives him a year to get used to it and go foot to the floor and try to have some moments and probably get given some show court spots that he wouldn't otherwise be given, maybe get given some extra wild cards and really underline for fans, make the most of watching this bloke's backhand.

1:04:38David Law: You know, let's not forget what he did in this sport, what he did when Novak Djokovic most wanted a title probably in his entire career, and Stan Wawrinka wrestled it from him, even though Djokovic was in this incredible vein of form. He had that ability to just bend things his way, whether you liked it or not, and no matter how great you were as an opponent. And we've had some amazing moments watching Stan Wawrinka, and I'm really pleased that he should now get some amazing moments as a sort of goodbye. That's an important, interesting point you make

1:05:24Matt Roberts: about the wild cards, because he's in a position where he's going to need wild cards this year, and announcing that this is his final year on tour, I'm not saying it's a cynical announcement purely with that in mind, but that probably is a factor, isn't it? You've got to give.

1:05:40David Law: Because he needs those wild cards.

1:05:44Matt Roberts: Whereas Djokovic doesn't.

1:05:45David Law: Think of Dominic Thiem, you know, when he didn't get one at the French Open, for instance. Oh, I think about it all the time, David. I realise Stan Wawrinka won the thing and that is a step further. But yeah, I mean, I do think it's a little challenge. Well, this year the French did give Stan Wawrinka a wild card and I'm sure they will next year. I think the interesting one will be the US Open. You know, they didn't this year. But he obviously is a former champion there as well. and if he plays the full major season, that would be his final major. You really do think that they would probably want to have that moment, the US Open.

1:06:23Matt Roberts: They gave Caroline Garcia one. Like, come on. Do you think he'll bring back the shorts for the French Open? I think that would be a cool move. Oh, that's a great idea. Yeah, just putting that out there. So there would be our crosshair. If anybody is listening that has any sway at all in the Vrinka Shorts department, you know what to do. Is Djokovic-Shovrinka the most one-sided head-to-head on paper that also feels like such a proper, significant rivalry? It's 21-6 head-to-head in Novak Djokovic's favour. And yet it's the nature of those six. And in particular, a few of them, you know, like Wawrinka beat Djokovic en route to winning all of his major titles, including a couple of finals, had other five set matches.

1:07:24Like it was such a thing that Wawrinka was the only guy who could like go toe-to-toe with Djokovic in a little period over five and really just push him in a way on all surfaces, certainly clay and hard courts. It was a singular thing that Wawrinka had. It was extraordinary.

1:07:44Matt Roberts: For a while, he was seen as Djokovic's Grand Slam bogeyman. He was. It was an ooh-la-la moment when he came out in his section of the draw, like, oh, that's the nightmare that Djokovic didn't want. Definitely for a period of time there, that was the case.

1:08:04David Law: I had some of the most fun I've ever had commentating on tennis commentating on Vrinka against Djokovic at the Australian Open a couple of years in a row yeah 13 and 14 just incredible matches I think one of them was something like 15-13 or something in the final set and it's just astonishing really he would make you gasp as a commentator doing radio you know you just you couldn't quite believe what you're seeing um and yeah um i i i kind of want to go and watch some highlights of that you know because the thing is you know here we are in 2026 it's a long time ago you know and he's going to do his absolute best to roll back the years and give us some memories but you know that bloke from 13 years and he was a late bloomer yeah right Right.

1:08:58Like he'd already been around quite a while before he actually like fully clicked in to gear and became the force that he was.

1:09:07Matt Roberts: Well, I think my personal favourite Stamborinka memory was, and this is very specific to sort of the privilege of my situation at the time, I watched most of his match with Dan Evans at the US Open in 2016 from courtside. on Armstrong Stadium, but old Armstrong Stadium. Late at night, carnival atmosphere, match points saved by Ravinka. I was there for Eurosport, so we were covering it from a very Dan Evans lens. And obviously then we went to town for the rest of the tournament on the storyline of, you know, was Dan Evans sort of the runner up of the 2016 US Open because he had a match point against the eventual champion?

1:09:58Matt Roberts: That match was unbelievable. It had everything you wanted a tennis match to have. And I remember, I just remember the feeling of sitting there at courtside and soaking that in and just feeling like I couldn't believe my luck. And that was 10 years ago and Rominka would have been 30. Right. No, 31, I guess. because it was, that was, yeah, August, September 2016. Yeah, crazy stuff. Okay, I kind of don't want this podcast to end. It's been really fun. David, any just rogue takes you want to throw at us? Let's make the most of this one day when you've had enough sleep.

1:10:46David Law: Yeah, I think I'm out. But, you know, I've now got two weeks myself to just, you know, Refuel, restock.

1:10:55Matt Roberts: This bodes well for 2026. We still have one more podcast in 2025, though, a week today. Matt and I will be here with Charlie Eccleshire from The Athletic, previewing the 2026 tennis season and also talking about the Battle of the Sexes, which will have taken place that day. So do join us for that, if you can face it. we'll be trying to face it together I am looking forward to being able to spend some time with you and Charlie Matt after what I'm sure will be a challenging day watching the Battle of the Sexes so I'm glad we get to do that show and then the next day I'll be getting on a plane to Australia so good things are coming folks I have some good times for you now We have a two-time pet mascot.

1:11:51Matt Roberts: I remember this. This is Marcy, owned by Catherine Moriarty. Catherine said, I was going to pick our dog, Berry, also pictured, but she can't stay awake for tennis. So she's picked Marcy, her cat, a long-haired, tuxie-type cat, which I think is short for tuxedo cat. But Marcy's favourite players continue to be Iga Shontek and Yannick Sinner. Her past favourite was Andre Agassi. How old is Marcy? She says...

1:12:29David Law: Maybe she's been watching YouTube.

1:12:31Matt Roberts: She says her mum always references him. OK. Marcy says, our other kitten isn't in the room for tennis at all. So Marcy's clearly the tennis diehard, the intergenerational tennis diehard in the family. And Catherine really got the memo because the photo that she sent in of Marcy has her pictured with canine brother, Barry brother, sister, who knows? And it's animals being friends. It's an inter-animal friendship. And that is my favourite thing outside of the one point slam. so thank you Catherine and thank you Marcy who really is gorgeous she's got a black splodge on her nose I've got a soft spot for tuxedo cats I love that dense white fur very lovely very cozy very appropriate cat for this time of year so hello and thank you Marcy hello to our top folks and executive producers Greg, Chris and Jeff.

1:13:36Matt Roberts: We are part of the Athletic Podcast Network and we have shout-outs, Matt. We have one special shout-out today. It is a birthday shout-out and that is from Ben Gollagore and his older brother Matt for their dad, Ethan, who is turning 85 on Christmas Day. Aww. Happy birthday. Happy birthday, Ethan. I feel sorry if people have their birthday on Christmas Day. Do you? Yeah. Yeah.

1:14:14David Law: You want to share your celebrations around? Yeah.

1:14:18Matt Roberts: Santa's stealing your thunder, isn't he?

1:14:23David Law: Well, Ethan gets a happy birthday from us. I think I quite like that.

1:14:26Matt Roberts: Do you think so?

1:14:28David Law: Yeah. Do you not like to be the centre of attention, Matt? Correct. I much prefer other people's birthdays to mine.

1:14:34Matt Roberts: You shouldn't be on a podcast, should you? Yes, that checks out for you, Matt. But you'd never be able to go out for your birthday. Everything's closed.

1:14:46David Law: You could go out next week. But I get your point. Yeah.

1:14:54Matt Roberts: anyway Ethan I hope you are having a wonderful birthday what a lovely lovely thing for your children to do for well we think it's a lovely thing and we've got a nice little really thoughtful message here from Ben Ben says our dad got us into tennis as young kids bringing us to the public tennis courts in New York City at Riverside and Central Park where he still plays today Ben says that as a result tennis has been an integral part of his whole life. Ethan is a loving grandpa to four grandchildren and we all met Ethan and Ben and perhaps Matt as well at the live show in New York in 2024. And my favourite little extra detail here is that Ethan wrote a book on psychology and tennis in the late 70s called Psychodynamic Tennis, being one of the pioneers.

1:15:58Matt Roberts: This is that guy. It is indeed. This is a little thing that I don't think even Ben knows. And that is that when Hannah and Vicky were at Wimbledon in the summer, they visited the Wimbledon Library, of course, because they're excellent people. And they found Ethan's book in the Wimbledon Library. And we have the most fantastic photo of Hannah holding that book and just loving the thought of it and the idea of it. So, yeah, what a wonderful thing. Thank you to Vicky for sort of helping to organize this shout out on this day for Ben and Ethan. And, yeah, a cool little extra note that we have known about Ethan's book for a few months.

1:16:45Thanks to Hannah and Vicky. So, yeah.

1:16:48Matt Roberts: And it's called Psychodynamic Tennis. Exactly. By Ethan Goligore. The subheader is You, Your Opponent and Other Obstacles to Perfection. Maybe I'll give that a read. Yeah.

1:17:06Matt Roberts: Ethan, happy birthday. Hope you are having a wonderful day, wonderful Christmas. We wish you a wonderful 2026. We'll be back a week from today. Thank you all for listening. Happy holidays. We'll speak to you then.

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