Sinner survives, Fonseca fires and Saudi footprint grows

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0:42Matt Roberts: AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the 14500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com. Hey, y 'all. This is Carol in South Carolina, and you're listening to our buddies, our pals, and most importantly, our friends at The Tennis Podcast.

1:35Matt Roberts: Well, hello and welcome to The Tennis Podcast, a bumper tennis podcast today. We have a lot to cover. Titles for Yannick Sinner, Joel Fonseca, Belinda Bencic and Anne Lee. Qualification for Elena Rabakina to the WTA finals. A controversial new ATP Masters event in Saudi Arabia. We'll be joined by the Athletics' Charlie Ecclesher for that section of the show. And of course, we will have a look ahead to this week and to the Paris Masters that is no longer the Paris Bercy Masters, but still inexplicably seems to have the same camera angle. Who better to introduce a bumper show like that than wonderful Carol, who, just like her mum, Carolyn, has a voice like molasses.

2:23Matt Roberts: I think, Matt, our first mother-daughter duo to introduce the show. Not sure if you have stats on that. I'm putting you right on the spot here.

2:33Catherine Whitaker: that is a hospital pass of an opening question i'm i'm very surprised you've gone to me rather than the source of all tennis podcast knowledge david law but uh i'm i'm happy to go with that

2:46Matt Roberts: yeah the reason i've gone to you matt is because david's on holiday i didn't think it would be fair to to unnecessarily put him on the spot he's here to talk about yannick sinner saudi arabia and and nothing else. David, how are you doing?

3:01David Law: Yeah, I was quite relieved you didn't come to me. So thank you, Matt, for handing it back because I have nothing. But no, actually, I can't remember. I must admit, I can't remember. So let's say this is the first one.

3:15Matt Roberts: Absolutely. So congratulations to Carol, who introduced the show today, and Carolyn, Lynn, who introduced the show a couple of years ago. So thank you, Carol. And on with the bumper show, where we start in Vienna and the ATP 500 event there. The title won by the world number two, Yannick Senna, beating Alexander Zverev, 3-6, 6-3, 7-5 in a dramatic, in the end, high-quality final. One not without its negatives for Yannick Sinner, but one packed full, Matt Roberts, of entertainment.

3:56Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I think this was, I don't know, low-key, one of the best tour-level finals of the year, actually. I thought it was pretty high-quality throughout, I must say. I was impressed with both players here, I would say. That's definitely the best I've seen Zverev play against a top player in a long, long time. For sure, I feel really confident about that. He was causing Yannick Sinner problems. And if you go back to their Australian Open final at the start of the year, that match was just so easy, really, for Yannick Sinner. You know, Zverev lost that match tactically, mentally, you know, in all the ways.

4:44Catherine Whitaker: Whereas this one, he caused Sinner problems throughout, I thought. That was particularly noticeable when he came through with some early pressure on serves, saving some break points. His own serves, Zverev was very effective, particularly on the deuce side, all match. I thought for most of the match, he was hitting his forehand with a lot more pace on it than he normally does. and I think we maybe saw some reasons why in the past Zverev has been tricky for Yannick Sinner you know in those there's a lot of backhand exchanges here and Zverev was hitting that shot well and just generally playing a much better level than he has throughout the year I would say from a Yannick Sinner perspective really interesting that he kept up his pledge to use more variety and he hit quite a lot of drop shots in this match particularly off the forehand and they were pretty effective.

5:37Catherine Whitaker: We've seen, for example, Novak Djokovic have a lot of success with that shot against Alexander Zverev this year and Carlos Alcres many times. I think it was a good play from Sinner. And then we got to this third set where, yeah, Sinner was really struggling physically with some cramping. I think that is the biggest question mark I would have for Yannick Sinner right now coming out of these last two tournaments where he has cramps. Okay, Shanghai was extreme conditions. But it was odd to me that he was cramping in this match, considering he hadn't had a particularly taxing week physically. It wasn't an especially taxing match.

6:13Catherine Whitaker: I think there are some question marks there for Yannick Sinner about why this keeps happening. But what it did was actually make him a little bit more aggressive. And then, you know, the whole match kind of came down to 5-all, 30-all, I thought. And Yannick Sinner is a little bit bolder in that point now. alexander zverev goes for the backhand down the line after a really long rally and you kind of see the big difference between the two players there you know in that crucial moment as well as verev had done all match he didn't really impose himself and and sinner did and that is a massive difference between the two players and then sinner played another great point and ended up managing to break and then win the match the next game so like a really intriguing match that I think told us quite a lot about both players, I would say, which I don't always feel about this time of the season.

7:09Catherine Whitaker: So from that point of view, I did find it really, really interesting. And yeah, in the end, Yannick Sinner's incredible winning streak indoors goes on and he adds another title. But yeah, it was a really compelling match, I thought.

7:24Matt Roberts: How long is that streak now?

7:26Catherine Whitaker: I believe it's up over 20 matches. He hasn't lost indoors since the ATP finals of 2023 when he lost to Djokovic. Since then, he's just been unbeaten. And in fact, he's barely lost sets really indoors. Even Zverev getting a set off him was quite something. Obviously, the slight caveat to that is that those indoor streaks don't include like Grandstand finals or Grandstand matches that then get played with the roof on. And obviously he did, I'm pretty sure the US Open final was actually played under the roof, wasn't it? So I think technically that still counts as an outdoor match in the stats, but in terms of like wins at indoor events, he's on that incredible street right now, I should probably clarify.

8:18Matt Roberts: Hasn't lost indoors in the Sky Sports UK tennis era because that Djokovic-Cinna match in Turin 2023 was my last match hosting for Amazon. So I don't know. I don't know what that means. David, did you learn things like Matt did about both Yannick Sinner and Alexander Zverev in this final?

8:44David Law: I'm not sure I did. I'm not sure I learned that much about either of them throughout the whole tournament. I felt like they kind of showed me just who they have always been. throughout the most majority of it. Sinner, the best player in the world, if Alcaraz is not around, and even if he is around, he often beats him, or he certainly beats him indoors, I would have thought, or is the favourite. But Zverev, let's not forget, he very nearly lost to Jacob Fermi in the first round, and I do think he was getting beaten from the baseline and his serve kind of kept him in it and his ability to kind of hang in there kept him in that.

9:29David Law: And then he grew into the tournament. He beat Arnaldi. He beat Mazzetti again whilst kind of being inferior from the baseline, I thought, for a lot of it. But he was increasingly serving well and he was 80 % plus first serves in in that match. And then you get to the final and he did take it up another notch. I think he realises he has to hit out more against Alkraus and Sinner. And he does actually have the way to shot to do it and hurt them. And as Matt said, we've seen him beat Sinner before. But this version of Sinner, I was always expecting to find a way. And to me, the key was, is Zverev going to be bold when it actually really counts?

10:16David Law: You know, when it's really stressful, when it's tense, when it's close at the end. It's one thing to be bold in the first set to get yourself a lead. It's another thing when it's, as you said, 5-0, 30-0. And he did get himself out of two games all in 15-14. Fair play to him for that. And again, the serve was really doing the damage for him. But I think, really, Zverev could probably be more dangerous than just hanging in there with the serve if he made some alterations. We've heard him say that he needs to be bold. We've heard him say, or at least show earlier on in the summer, that he can go to the net a lot more than he has been.

10:59David Law: And how difficult he is to pass, how difficult he is to lob. He may not be the world's greatest volleyer, but he's just such a big presence up there. and he does move well for a guy of his size. I think he stopped doing that as that deciding set went on. He still ends up camping himself in a baseline rally, which is kind of the DNA that has got him to where he is. And versus most players, the opponent ends up just losing their way. They can't hang in there with him anymore. You've got to do more than that against Cyrano Alcaraz. and he still does it. And as Matt said, eventually Sinner's the one who takes the initiative, who pulls the trigger in a down-the-line risky daredevil shot, or comes in or plays the drop shot.

11:51David Law: I actually thought for Sinner, I felt like the drop shot turned this match around for him, really. I turned on a set to love, having arrived here on holiday, and just saw him hit several drop shots that I'm not used to him hitting. So that's maybe the thing I learned is that he's got that shot now and he seems to have really good touch on it. But it still ends up amounting to the same thing. I expect Yannick Sinner ultimately to come out on top. I'm just really confused about the cramping and the physical issues he's having in relatively short matches. so I think there's still some way to go for him I'd love to know whether that is nerves or whether that is a physical issue it's very interesting

12:43Matt Roberts: or both yeah I mean there's two ways of looking at this from a Zverev point of view aren't there there's as you both said he was incredibly close he's causing Yannick Senna somebody who hasn't lost on an indoor hardcourt for two years he's causing him serious, serious problems, as big problems as anybody has really in those two years. And yet the other way of looking at it is he couldn't even beat Yannick Sinner in a fairly compromised physical state. And even before the cramping, he didn't look right physically, did he? He was kind of stretching out his neck in a way that implied there was stiffness there.

13:20Matt Roberts: He was walking like late stage Andy Murray.

13:27Matt Roberts: he looked the way Yannick Sinner sometimes can look which is not hugely athletic and then the cramping kicks in and look we didn't give him a totally free pass on the cramping in Shanghai because of how dramatic it was and because he has had a bit of a history with cramping in the past but the fact that the conditions were so extreme and so many players had issues with cramp in Shanghai. It's one of those where you just, you flag in your mind, but you kind of just put a pin in it. Well, this is cramping in a best of three set match indoors. This is not, Matt, where Yannick Sinner wants to be physically.

14:09Matt Roberts: This is surely an alarm bell for him.

14:13Catherine Whitaker: Yes, I think so. Honestly, there have been very few Yannick Sinner matches over the last couple of years. that he's lost that haven't included some kind of concern on my part about his physical state whether it be that hobbling you describe whether it be the cramping and I really don't think it's oh he only does it when he's losing or you know it's an excuse I just I just don't think it is that I think it maybe shows a little bit more as you said when he's stressed it could well be related to stress and when he's pushed in these matches he's more stressed and he feels it physically. That does make sense to me.

14:59Catherine Whitaker: But these issues combined with that record he's got of never having won those really really long matches you can build a bit of a narrative that Yannick Sinner's biggest weakness is kind of his own physicality and his own durability in these matches. It's very hard for people to bring that out and actually expose it as a weakness. But it is there a little bit. And I'm just not sure. I must say the period I thought he was looking the strongest physically was actually the period where he wasn't working with Humberto Ferrara. Now, that could totally be a coincidence. But it's something on my mind.

15:46Catherine Whitaker: The fact that he had a lot of issues. Ferrara goes away. He plays that incredible French Open final, as gruelling a match as you can possibly have. Ferrara is not on the team at that point. Okay, there's a little bit of cramping in that match, but I think everyone understood why that was happening and no one really thought he lost that match physically. It was extraordinary, the tennis he was producing after five hours. And now Ferrara comes back and, you know, there have been little tournaments where he's either been ill or physically compromised in matches and look as i said correlation is not causation but it is something that i'm going to be interested in monitoring over time because sinner is absolutely adamant isn't he that ferrara is the best physical coach for him you know that's why he's gone back to him after a pretty controversial episode I don't know it strikes me that yes he's made incredible physical improvements Yannick Sinner but if there's one area where I'm still looking at where he could still close some of that gap maybe to Alcaraz it does seem to be there so yeah the fact that it shows up in this sort of match in this sort of week which didn't seem to take that much out of him and isn't as stressful as many other sort of situations he's found himself in, albeit there was some spotlight on Yannick Sinner this week because of his decision to not play the Davis Cup finals.

17:18Catherine Whitaker: Maybe that's related in terms of stress. I don't know. It's just very, very curious and something that I do think, again, it feels silly to say he needs to get it under control because he's been a dominant world number one and he's won several majors. But I do think it's an aspect of his game that can still improve.

17:40Matt Roberts: Yeah, and chips away at the locker room Mora a bit, doesn't it? You know, players taking to the court that know they can't beat him on the forehands and backhands front can just think, if I can just make this physical. And also in terms of his rivalry with Carlos Alcaraz, he's the opposite, isn't he? He knows I get this into a fifth set and statistically this is mine against Yannick Sinner or anybody else, whereas there'll just presumably be that little seed of doubt in Yannick Sinner's own mind at the moment and in that of others in the locker room. On what you've just hinted at at the end there, Matt, we had the news at the start of this week in Vienna.

18:21Matt Roberts: The really shock news. This took me aback. David, I'll get your reaction in a moment. That Yannick Sinner will not be part of the Italian team at the Davis Cup finals this year. The two-time defending, of course, Italian Davis Cup champions. Both titles won with Yannick Sinner in the team, leading the team. Both times Yannick Sinner has gone on to win the Australian Open after winning the Davis Cup with Italy. The Davis Cup finals are now in Italy. Now, OK, that isn't entirely down to Yannick Sinner. But I definitely don't think it's entirely not down to the fact that they have had a men's world number one player for a good part of the last couple of years.

19:12Matt Roberts: I did not see this one coming. I wonder, and look, we're sending Matt to the Davis Cup finals in Italy and he will hopefully get some opinion on the ground in terms of how big the backlash has been in Italy. I've been trying to get a sense of that and it's quite hard. I get the impression there has been quite a lot of backlash against Yannick Sierna, but it's always quite hard to tell from the internet. And I'm sort of wary of taking internet outrage always with a bit of a pinch of salt. But without question, there has been some in Italy negativity towards this decision. and it has raised an awful lot of eyebrows, including, I think, ours, David.

20:00David Law: Yeah, I was really shocked. And I suspect most people in tennis were really shocked by this news. There's no injury. There's no history of him playing this event and it leading to things not going very well in the future. he's won the thing and then gone and won the Australian Open the last two years so why would you what's the issue the explanation is wanting an extra week to prepare off season yeah I get it but I'm really surprised that he would have gone to this level of taking an extra week off that you don't play your your Davis Cup finals in your own country I'm really I'm pretty disappointed with that I gotta

20:53Matt Roberts: say yeah yeah same and look there's there's two ways of looking at this there's also how it reflects on the Davis Cup and it's it's not really a new format anymore but the format we currently find it in and this is a bit of a damning indictment of that given the the format changes were introduced in order to encourage top players to play. And look, we will cover that angle of this story in part three when we talk a little bit more about the Davis Cup finals. But another instance, Matt, of a week where Yannick's in a, what does he call it, dances in a pressure storm, like wins Grand Slams with drugs bands hanging over him, wins Vienna with this, okay, it's not the same size of scandal, but it did create a bit of a storm.

21:45Matt Roberts: And as I say, from what I can gather, in Italy, this does seem to have created a little bit of a pressure storm for Yannick Sinner. The sort of thing, certainly, that would derail players that aren't Yannick Sinner. Like his ability, Matt, to triumph amid these sort of circumstances is pretty crazy, really.

22:06Catherine Whitaker: Yes, I think Nicola Pietrangeli even had something to say about it.

22:13Matt Roberts: Have you seen that video? It's really weird. It looks like he's in some sort of facility in bed, but sort of using his last breaths to condemn Yannick Sinner.

22:30Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. It's quite a video. We must get his take on Yannick Sinner's Davis Cup decision. Yeah, I don't know what's going on in Italy, but I agree. It is another example.

22:43Matt Roberts: You're going to go there and you're going to find out, Matt.

22:46Catherine Whitaker: I'm going to befriend some Italians and work my sources and let you all know.

22:51Matt Roberts: It's not good news for poor old Lorenzo Mazzetti, who we already knew was dead as of a week ago. So he's struggling on and he'll now have to lead that Italian team at the Davis Cup finals. And it's looking like he will also have to play the ATP finals in Turin. Let's get the tiny violins out for Lorenzo. He reached the semi-finals in Vienna. It's not confirmed to be enough. We don't quite know exactly what he'll have to do in Paris because it depends on other people. but he will probably make it to Turin by the looks of things, especially as Félix Auger-Eliassime retired in the quarterfinals last week.

23:37Matt Roberts: He currently is in eighth spot, Mazzetti, and at least eighth will be enough.

23:44Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, he's 440 points now ahead of Auger-Eliassime, so he's going to need a really deep run in Paris, is Auger-Eliassime. to make up that gap. And, you know, he's landed in Carlos Alcaraz's quarter and that, you know, that won't be enough. He's going to have to get out of that quarter and then hope that Mazzetti doesn't do stuff. So really, Mazzetti is in the driving seat now. Technically, Athens and Mets still count to the race. And I think they finish just like a day or two before the ATP finals get underway. I really hope that it's all done at the end of Paris. We can do like proper.

24:27Matt Roberts: I don't want to see Lorenzo Mazzetti's nightmare continuing in Mets. I kind of do.

24:35Catherine Whitaker: I just don't want to like not know who's in the tournament, like the day before it starts. Then someone qualifies and gets there, but they've pushed themselves to the limit and then they've got nothing left. I really think we're going to talk a lot about the calendar in this episode, but I really think that having a week off before the ATP finals, so we know who's going to be at the season-ending championships, shouldn't be too much to ask. But yeah, as it stands, we still have four spots left to determine for the ATP finals. but it does feel like Paris is going to go a long way to determining it.

25:15Catherine Whitaker: Augiali, Asim, Rude, Medvedev all need massive results over the next couple of weeks to get in.

25:23Matt Roberts: We'll keep you posted on the race to Turin and whether Lorenzo Mazzetti ends up hauling himself to Metz as we head now to Basel and the ATP 500 event there won by 19-year-old Joe Fonseca beat poor old Alejandro Davidovic Fikina. Fikina's fourth final loss of the year and fifth overall, sort of confirming himself as the best player really not to have won a title, best active player not to have won a title on the ATP Tour. 6-3, 6-4 in this final, got helped with a little bit of luck with the draw along the way, did Joe Fonseca, But who didn't in Basel? It was a draw absolutely decimated by injury and retirements.

26:13Matt Roberts: And this was frankly sort of Davidovic-Vikina tragedy aside. And I really do feel for him. This result, David, is a very, I almost did an adal there, a very good news. It's good news for tennis, isn't it? And definitely good news for you, our resident Fonseca guy.

26:37David Law: Yeah, I mean, he's had an interesting season, really, because the way he started it, particularly the way he beat Rublev at the Australian Open, had, well, the likes of me getting a little overexcited and thinking he'd go on with the French Open. And relative to the absurd hype that I foisted upon him, it's been a little bit of an underwhelming season in some regards in terms of the feel of it. I either haven't been the breakthrough results that maybe some expected, and I do include myself in that. But at the same time, that doesn't mean it's been anything other than a highly impressive year of tennis for somebody who's so green, so new.

27:27David Law: And if you compare him to, say, his most obvious contemporaries who are a little further along down the line, obviously a lot further along in terms of achievement in Alcaraz and Sinner, it bears resemblance to what they were doing in their first year on the tour in 2020 and 2021 respectively for Sinner and Alcraz. I just think that this showed great perseverance from him because I don't think his game is that natural on the surface and in these conditions and I saw him lose the first set to Denis Shapovalov and really looked like he was going to get a bit of a hammering in that match. You know, he was just trying to go toe-to-toe and swipe the forehand, and he ended up outlasting him, and Shapovalov got compromised physically and retired in the third set.

28:20David Law: But he hung in there, and he's sort of starting to work out how his game can function, I think, on the various surfaces. And that's what this year has been all about. Exposure to the tour. Exposure to the type of players you have to play who don't just blink the moment you hit a big forehand. And also the various conditions as well. And I think to win his first big 500 title indoors, I think is way more significant than if he'd have done that at a clay court event or an outdoor hard court event. Because I think he can definitely do it on those surfaces. And I think that next year or the year after, if he can continue on this trajectory, I just think he's going to get more and more dangerous because I think the appetite to learn is there.

29:13David Law: And I suppose there's still the question mark over his physical condition, whether he becomes that athletic beast that the very best are, and also whether he can stand being rushed and that sort of thing. But I think this was really impressive.

29:32Matt Roberts: he's into the world's top 30 I think he's 28 as of today which kind of at his age 19 years three months basically tracks with you know it a list of players who have gone on to to great great things so he's on he's on the right path even if this year as a whole hasn't necessarily been what a lot of people predicted for him at the start of it when he came out of the block so quickly gave a gave a lovely speech didn't he in Basel while holding that incredibly heavy trophy that he genuinely looked like he was struggling to to keep a hold of because it was so heavy his parents had been planning to travel to Paris to watch him there but diverted to Basel at the last minute obviously once he once he reached the final and they arrived an hour before the final and were able to be there to watch him.

30:26Matt Roberts: And it was all, that was all incredibly emotional. He says, I'm so, he said, I'm so lucky to be your kid, which was just, or it's great being your kid, something like that, something absolutely adorable. I don't think it was an accident that Fonseca skipped the Asian swing, incidentally. You know, I said he had a bit of a benefit bit of the door opening up but you know maybe he wasn't a victim of all the retirements that struck down so many around him because he was because he was that bit fresher and three of the four quarter finals in Basel ended in retirement as well as one of the two semi-finals it was a it was a brutal week there and just just bear those numbers in mind when we get to part two of the show we start talking about schedule and uh and burnout and all of that kind of thing um so brilliant for Fonseca and his big trophy how much more Davidovich for Keena heartbreak

31:33Catherine Whitaker: though Matt can any of us take oh it's it's already too much isn't it um you know this one was less obviously heartbreaking than some of his other finals where he's been in a position to win it and lost it. I'm thinking of the ones against Dimonor and Ketsmanovic in particular. But he was a bit of a no-show in this final. He just didn't really turn up. As David's described, Fonseca was excellent and hitting that forehand consistently big. I think the stats on the coverage I was watching had him at six miles an hour faster than the Davidovich Fikina forehand, just on average. And that's quite a big margin over a match like this.

32:24Catherine Whitaker: But yeah, it just didn't really show up. And I have to think that that record is massively in his head now. He knows that he's so desperate to get off the mark in a final and win a title. and he just can't quite bring his best tennis, either in the closing stages or in this one from the very start. And that has been compounded by the fact that we talk about Yannick Sinner not playing the Davis Cup. That's his decision. Well, this week began with some tough news for Davidic Fakinen that he's not been picked for the Spain Davis Cup team, despite wanting to play. Captain David Ferrer has picked Jaume Munar as his likely number two singles player or potentially even Pedro Martinez who played well in the qualifier a few weeks ago.

33:19Catherine Whitaker: And Munar's had a great year. He really has. And Pedro Martinez has delivered for Spain just recently. But to think that there's not a place there for Davidovic Fikino in that Spain-Davis Cup squad. I did see some quotes from him suggesting he was really not happy about it.

33:36Matt Roberts: He's upset by it. I think he's really upset. I think the logic from Ferrer is he's backing the guys that helped them get there to the finals. I think this decision is wild from David Ferrer. Maybe that assessment comes from a place of generally not having that much faith in David Ferrer's decisions based on past evidence. And I think that's personally a reasonable position based on last year's hoo-ha. But, and look, maybe he'll be proven right. But I saw this and was, A, sort of upset for Davidovic, for Kina. And he strikes me as somebody that'd be a really good team player, like a good vibe. I don't know.

34:19Matt Roberts: And B, just sort of a bit confused by it.

34:22Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, and you've got Pablo Crenia Busta in the team. And look, obviously he's been a very good player, Crenia Busta, but he's not at the moment anywhere near the level that Alejandro Davidovic, Fikina, which does make me think it is potentially about vibes. You know, Crenia Busta is close.

34:44Matt Roberts: Is he famously a vibe?

34:46Catherine Whitaker: He's close to Alcaraz. You know, they've shared a coach.

34:49Matt Roberts: Right.

34:49Catherine Whitaker: Samuel Lopez used to be on Crenia Busta's team. He's now on Alcaraz's team.

34:54Matt Roberts: But Alcaraz doesn't need that. Alcaraz can create vibes in an empty room. He doesn't need Pablo Crenia Busta to bring in vibes. What are we doing?

35:03Catherine Whitaker: I don't think so either. But explain why Crenia Busta's in the team ahead of David Fikina if it's not something to do with personnel and the makeup of the team. Because it's not for tennis reasons.

35:18Matt Roberts: no I mean I think it's that David Freire might be bad at this well I mean listen I do I realize

35:24David Law: Davidovic Fikina hasn't won a title and is maybe not a specialist indoors or on hard courts but surely his game is is the better shout I would I would have thought I'd have gone with him for sure I mean I do think Jamo Muna has has been excellent this year but I'd still given the conditions I'd have gone for Davidovich Fikina over both of those two.

35:50Matt Roberts: Well, you could have Munar and Davidovich Fikina, but unfortunately you would lose the Karenjabusta vibes, which is just too high a price to pay. He gave such a sweet speech, Davidovich Fikina, didn't he, even though he was just so clearly devastated and he was about to be told by a 19-year-old that his time would come. 19-year-old who's holding his second trophy of the year. Yeah. Dispatches from Basel should mention 40-year-old Stan Wawrinka got a win over Mirmir Ketsamanovic. Tour-level wins have been few and far between for Stan Wawrinka, but he created a real vibe in Basel with that win at home and has no plans to stop any time soon.

36:37Matt Roberts: You go for it, Stan. On to the WTA events this week and the most notable of them in Tokyo, the WTA 500. They're won by Belinda Bencic. She beat Linda Nozkova in the final 6-2, 6-3. And easy to forget, Matt, that this is Belinda Bencic's comeback year from maternity leave. I think she came out of the block so quickly from that return to leave and was so soon back to being, well, what looked like, frankly, her best that we sort of put that out of our minds. It was just Belinda Bencic is back. Tennis moves quickly. You know, she's back to where she was. But this is a pretty remarkable season she has ended up having, albeit with, you know, a little bit of a lull in there.

37:31Matt Roberts: but obviously had a fantastic Wimbledon as well, right in the middle of the season there. What a comeback it's been in 2025 from Belinda Bencic.

37:39Catherine Whitaker: Totally. Yeah, it started at the back end the last year, didn't it? When she played some ITFs, you know, she took that route, which we also saw Alina Svitolina take after coming back from having a child. And it, you know, it does seem that that has been a sensible route sort of back into the sport to start at that lower level and then work your way up. And yeah, Bengshic, brilliant at the start of the season, brilliant at Wimbledon and still going strong, even after what's been a very, very long season. Her tennis has stood up, her physicality has stood up. It's incredibly impressive. And look, in this final, she played the big points so well against Noskova.

38:27Catherine Whitaker: You know, 6-2, 6-3 looks incredibly straightforward on the scoreline. but Noskova had 10 great points there in this match and Bengtjevic saved them all. Really brought it when she needed to and battled through a three-setter over Mukovo as well earlier in the tournament. And yeah, I think she's still playing this week in one of the 250s. I think she perhaps wants that top 10 finish. I think she can still get that. But no matter where she finishes, it's been a remarkable season. and to think as well, she played the Tokyo final 10 years ago to Bencic and lost it to Agnieszka Radvanska. There's real longevity to Bencic's career, even though I don't think she's even 30 yet, is she?

39:18Catherine Whitaker: She's really been around a long time at this sort of level for a long time and she's also won an Olympic gold in that stadium in Tokyo. She seems to really like playing there. So, yeah, it's going to be interesting to see whether she can make another step next year and probably do the one thing that she hasn't done yet, which is win a Grand Sam title. She's kind of been there or thereabouts at every other level of the sport. And just a word on Noskova, who, again, was a massive beneficiary of the decimation of that draw. She had a bye, a walkover and a retirement en route to the final here in Oskova.

40:04But I do think just worth shouting out the season she's had as well.

40:10Catherine Whitaker: I think she's made some nice improvements. She's up into the top 20 now, rising nicely, but she's got a finals problem. She's one and six, I think, now in finals. She sort of feels like she maybe should have a bit more out of her career than she's got in terms of number of titles. But I'm going to be interested to see whether she can start sort of finishing these tournaments off next year.

40:36Matt Roberts: Yeah, you made a big Noskova prediction at our live show in Wrexham last week or a medium sized Noskova prediction.

40:42Catherine Whitaker: I was asked for a big prediction and I made a medium sized Noskova prediction. That is what the people of Wrexham wanted.

40:50Matt Roberts: They were already satisfied because they had a big backhand list announcement. In fact, a whole restructuring, which we probably don't have time for right now, but I can reveal that Victoria Mboko is now officially a backhand list member, despite losing out to Elena Rabakina this week. The week giveth and it taketh away. It was the wins over Leila Fernandes and Victoria Mboko in Tokyo that enabled Elena Rabakina to qualify for the WTA finals. And she made it clear that that was her goal, David, in going to Tokyo by immediately retiring, withdrawing from the tournament. What do we think of that?

41:37David Law: I mean, look, normally I would think, oh, that's not very nice, is it? you know um but you can understand it from her perspective she's she's been on this mission to try to to qualify for the wca finals and it was a bit of a long shot a while ago you know and and she's managed to catch up all these points and she knew what she needed to do going in i think a lot of people probably would have done the same in her position you know and give herself that little bit of extra time to be fresh for the finals. Yeah, I don't hold that one against her if indeed that's what happened and it seems fairly likely that it is.

42:17Matt Roberts: Taking advantage of the luxury that maybe Lorenzo Mazzetti won't have access to. In Guangzhou, the ATP 250 event there, Anne Lee won the title. She beat Lulu Sun 7-6, 6-2 in the finals. So that wraps up the week in terms of events and titles and trophies. There was a lot of news, though, last week on particularly the ATP side of things and the announcement of a new Masters 1000 event in Saudi Arabia upcoming in 2028 caused a lot of ruffles, a lot of ripples around the tennis world. And that is what we'll be discussing with The Athletic's Charlie Eccleshire in part two.

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45:24Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of the Tennis Podcast, where we are joined now by the Athletics' Charlie Eccleshare, making our composition of podcasters that are on holiday during this recording 50%. Charlie, thank you very much for interrupting a game of Monopoly to be with us. Yeah, I just lost, so I need to pick me up. So it's fine. yeah that green set is just a poison chalice i tell you so expensive was the age of competitors that you lost to the average age no they were actually all the youngsters were out the way um so it was just me and then adult monopoly yeah that very much adult monopoly and my sister got sidetracked by her baby my mom doesn't play with us anymore because we're too ruthless and brutal so it was me my dad and my brother old-fashioned uh going head to head and yeah, I went out first.

46:19But, you know, they're still at it. So at this point, we don't know who's won.

46:24Matt Roberts: I remember my parents banning Monopoly at one point when my brother and I were younger. I think because I couldn't handle the consequences of my inevitable defeat. Yeah, my brother once stormed out of the cottage we were staying at. It's tough. There's always one, isn't there? Yeah. There's always one. Right. Charlie, you've joined us to talk about a very important, very big news story that broke over the course of last week in the world of the ATP. A story that you and Matt and James have covered extensively and brilliantly in The Athletic. The news that Saudi Arabia will be hosting a Masters 1000 event in the future.

47:11Matt Roberts: The worst kept secret in tennis. the ATP and Surge am I allowed to call them Surge? S-U-R-J? I'm going to go with Surge. They are the sports division of Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund or PIF which is an acronym that we're all very familiar with now in the tennis world. I'm sure we'll be really familiar with Surge soon.

47:33Catherine Whitaker: It even fired me to St James' Park on Saturday as I was watching Fulham lose. I also had PIF branding around the stadium. I wasn't going to mention that. Can't get away from it. I was going to spare you.

47:47Matt Roberts: Oh dear. So the ATP and Surge confirmed last Thursday that there will be an ATP Masters 1000 event held in Saudi Arabia from 2028. It will be a week-long, non-mandatory event with a 56-player draw, most likely held in February between the Australian Open and the Sunshine Swing. It is the latest in a long line of big swings from PIF in the tennis world, including, of course, the three-year deal to host the WTA finals. And, of course, the Six Kingslam, which saw its second edition this year just a couple of weeks ago. So this announcement came less than a week after Holger Runa's horror injury in Stockholm and all the concern that sparked from players and commentators about the length of the season and the demands on players.

48:43Matt Roberts: It also came in the same 24 hour period that three of the four quarterfinals in Basel ended in retirement. I genuinely when this story broke Charlie thought it was satire only to then very quickly remember that it's 2025 and we live in an age where satire is dead because satire is now real life and that's where we are in terms of timing of this announcement that's what it feels like to me yeah I mean for me satire was dead with the Saudi maternity fund announcement earlier in the year. That was the kind of point at which it felt like all bets were off. I mean, this has been rumbling on for ages.

49:25And I first got wind of this in April. I think it was during when I was in Madrid. And basically, the details haven't really changed since then. You know, it was the same size of draw, non-mandatory, week-long. I mean, obviously, it goes way further back. And if you think back a year or so, when, you know, there was talk of the Saudi Masters, the talk then was that it was going to be in January and then the Australian Open weren't happy about that. And that prompted the whole premium tour discussion. But yeah, this iteration has been in the works for a long, long time. I think they wanted, ideally, to be making the announcement with confirmation of when it was going to be.

50:07And, you know, to be able to say we've got this brand spanking new event, it's going to be here, it's going to be great. Obviously, that hasn't happened. Those negotiations are too complicated. So instead, it was announced with it's going to happen. We don't yet know when it's going to be. February seems the most likely. And they're slightly framing it as the ATP or anyway, you know, don't think of it as an additional event. it's going to be part of this whole calendar optimisation, I think is the phrase they use, you know, where they work out, OK, how does the calendar work? And this is just a part of that.

50:40And they've got until the end of next year before they need to finalise, I think, when it is, because it's not going to be until 2028. But yes, the timing of it is not great from an optics perspective vis-a-vis player welfare and that sort of thing.

50:57Matt Roberts: as you say this this is the latest iteration of you know saudi arabia have signposted for a long time that this is what they want this is their intention i think in spring of last year it sounded like the plan plan a was to have a combined atp yeah wta 1000 event slotted into the calendar before the australian open um what's changed why is that not what's happening well i think there was a lot of pushback certainly from tennis australia and you know the grand slams um and i think they they had to be realistic about what they could do because as it stands i believe they can do this event within one week so you're only talking about one week of the calendar that's a lot more straightforward than you know obviously for them they would love to just make it a two-week thing but there is there's very little wiggle room and everyone doesn't really want everyone everyone thinks and this is human nature i guess but everyone thinks well why should i be the one to have to sacrifice why should i be the one to have to move throw in as well the fact that we're talking about in that february period it's uh dubai it's doha qatar um and these are not nations necessarily that really want to be pandering saudi arabia um you know there's a lot of friction there and so i think it got to the point where it's like well this is this isn't really going to happen um and so they've had to you know this is a you know you could phrase you could frame it as a bit of a compromise really because as you say Catherine it was ideally going to be this big combined 1000 all single dancing kicking off the season it's not quite that but it is still a very significant moment in the kind of entrenchment of Saudi Arabia in tennis and what I think is the most rewarding thing is how now and this exact is exactly what one of the purposes of this sort of thing is how normalized it is to the point where I feel like the human rights concerns now barely make a ripple.

52:53Gaudenzi and Danny Townsend, the surge representative, they weren't asked about this in the briefing call, which I think speaks volumes because, and it's exactly the same, Matt, you mentioned Newcastle United there, you know, remember this was a huge deal four years ago when the PIF bought out Newcastle. Now, four years on, there's kind of fatigue about this sort of thing and people, you just shrug your shoulders and like, wow, this is what it's like now. And that's kind of the whole point.

53:21Matt Roberts: Yeah, maybe that's why they've gone with this timing. They've gone, OK, if we can make this controversy about the length of the season and the number of the events and the demands on the players, that's a preferable controversy to human rights abuses. I mean, I'm sort of being glib, but maybe I'm not joking. I mean, it definitely, yeah, that's definitely kind of the way it's played out, because I do think of course those I mean of course those are totally legitimate concerns but yeah there is a much bigger picture here that goes beyond um you know the tennis calendar and the kind of jostling for position which of course is really important to people like us but yeah there are far wider issues about how deeply embedded now Saudi is within the sport I mean it's pretty huge not just the tournaments the strategic sponsorships uh and now you know we're talking what a week before the WTA finals um that goes back there and so there's a huge you know that's kind of the flagship WTA event and I do wonder as well how much the ATP and I and I really don't think this should be the case but I wonder if it's unconscious or otherwise that I think the women's event because most people are aware of the issues uh the human rights record towards women and so a WTA event gets even more attention whereas the ATP maybe on some level people don't make such a big deal out of it but um yeah I just I do think that that how sidelined that as a concern is has been pretty striking to me there's going to be massive impact isn't there on I mean you mentioned the other Middle Eastern events Doha Doha Abu Dhabi Dubai as well but I mean David David, you mentioned Rotterdam last week.

55:06Matt Roberts: There's going to be massive consequences for so many events during that portion of the season. Charlie, you did a great piece with Diego Schwarzman talking about the impact, specifically the potential impact on South America that I want to talk about. But David, there are going to be so many events affected here. And it sounds, I mean, as Charlie said, they've announced this before the fine print has been finalised. negotiations are still underway but it sounds like there's going to be some sort of financial compensation made available by Saudi Arabia to kind of mitigate the fallout and hopefully sort of quieten the consternation from those other events.

55:55Matt Roberts: Does that sound about right?

55:56David Law: I mean, I think one of the points is that the idea is that the ATP is still saying that this is part of their calendar optimisation. It is not just about welcoming a 10th Masters series event in and taking Saudi Arabia's money. Although the degree to which the red carpet appears to have just been laid down to come on in is quite startling to me. Maybe it's been naive to think of anything else would be happening. But I've just been reading Ben Rothenberg's newsletter in which he's interviewed Carl Hale, the tournament director of Toronto. And they're talking about a buyback fund where it seems that there may be as many as five ATP events that are effectively bought out so that they can be removed.

56:51David Law: And those are 250s and 500s. Now, I assume those tournaments are okay with that. Otherwise, that then becomes very, very awkward. I'm not quite sure how you do all of that. But, I mean, to my mind, the existing Masters Series events are diluted somewhat by having a 10th one come in. And they're already struggling to get players to appear, the very top players. Sinner and Alcrast didn't play in Canada this year. I think that sort of thing is only going to get worse, particularly as we've seen, they're quite happy to do a three-day exhibition in Saudi Arabia, take an absolute wheelbarrow full of money for very little effort and time and energy and not worry about some of these events if they want to create a bit more of a gap.

57:42David Law: I mean, it just seems to me, Charlie, that it just throws another element into this calendar that we already have a massive problem with and players are speaking out openly to say so. Yeah, I mean, Gaudenzi was talking in this conference call, which I couldn't attend because, yeah, I was on holiday, but I've listened to it. Monopoly. Yeah, I was on this Monopoly marathon, Monopoly camp. but yeah he was basically talking about the fact that there are going to be he sees it as in February now it's kind of two swings that he was talking about the sort of Middle Eastern swing which obviously Saudi Arabia masters will be the kind of headline of and then the South American one which yes as you say obviously leaves American tournaments and those like Rotterdam either peripheral or non-existent and also clear I mean what's going to be the biggest swing is it going to be the South American one which has all the pedigree the heritage the fan fervor or is it going to be the one that pays the players a huge amount of money and you know he was asked about prize money and you know said it's well you know it's in line with with ATP events you know I'm sure it hasn't been confirmed at this point but I would be stunned if there weren't vast vast sums of prize money involved in the same way as there are at the WTA finals and look you know a lot of I'm sure the players will be saying finally an event that gives us the proportion of revenue that we want and that we deserve and they're going to be very hard sums to turn down I would have thought because money's not really an object here for the PIF and surge.

59:22Matt Roberts: It's a confirmation of the shift in the economics of tennis and the ATP in terms of You know, it used to be a big part of mandatory being being a mandatory tournament, which the 1000s, with the exception of Monte Carlo up until now, have have all been. That is part of what those mandatory tournaments pay their huge license fee for, for being guaranteed to get those top level players. That's been a positive, valuable thing for Saudi Arabia, for this tournament. They want it to be non-mandatory because that permits them then to pay appearance fees, doesn't it? And guarantee getting those top players, which being a mandatory event doesn't anymore.

1:00:12Matt Roberts: That's been proven by Al Kraz putting out a Shanghai. What happened in Canada with a paltry field for a 1000 mandatory in terms of those top players is pretty toothless now. and what the ATP have created is a system where really only money talks, is what it seems to me. Yeah, and they become even more toothless when you've got an event, as you say, that comes in like this and can pay vast sums because then there might be the odd player who thinks, well, Indian Wells, even Indian Wells becomes a little less of a priority because it might be, well, I'll go and do this one where there are far more sums on offer and for only a week's work, crucially.

1:00:55So you can see why it's going to be really appealing. But yeah, just to go back as well on the South American point, I mean, when I interviewed Diego Schwartzman, it absolutely wasn't, you know, with this in mind, this wasn't even known at that point. It was a kind of general interview, but that was the thing that was most striking when we spoke, was about his fear that South American tennis was already being sidelined and that this was going to only compound it. and it's hard to see how that won't be the case really. I mean, I guess it's already not somewhere where you get all the top players, that's true, but the eyes of the tennis world will be on Saudi Arabia, especially if, as seems possible, if not likely, that they'll be able to attract Al-Khraz and Sinna because as we've seen, despite their packed calendars, their fitness concerns, they'll go and play the Six Kings Slam.

1:01:44Matt Roberts: Now, as you said, Charlie, the sports washing of it all isn't going anywhere as much as the ATP and PIF and Surge would like it to. And I know we repeat ourselves on this, but the aim of sports washing is to normalise. The playbook is to ride out the initial wave of backlash until everyone grows tired or feels like they've done their bit by pointing out the issues in the first place and everybody can move on and pat themselves on the back. But nothing has changed in terms of Saudi Arabia's human rights record. In fact, some organizations suggest the restriction of freedoms there is worsening. This is from one of your pieces this week in The Athletic, Charlie.

1:02:31Matt Roberts: Saudi Arabia received a score of 9 out of 100 in this year's Freedom of the World report by non-profit organisation Freedom House. That is the same score it received in 2022 and 2023. It ranked 132nd out of 148 countries on the 2025 global gender gap list. Human rights groups, including Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, have criticised Saudi Arabia's record on freedom of expression, including the criminalisation of same-sex relationships, the personal status law and the personal status law which requires women to obtain a male guardian's permission to marry. In November, during the first of the three WTA finals to be held in Riyadh last year, Saudi nationals and experts said the crackdown on dissenting voices was stricter than ever under the de facto rule of the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, which began in 2017.

1:03:28Matt Roberts: Thousands of political prisoners are under arrest in Saudi Arabia for speaking out against the absolute monarchy and government. In the US State Department's most recent annual report on human rights practices for Saudi Arabia, it lists what it calls credible reports of various human rights violations, including arbitrary or unlawful killings, arbitrary arrest and detention, crimes involving violence or threats of violence targeting lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer or intersex persons. And I guess, Charlie, you're going to be heading out to Saudi, aren't you, for the WTA finals? I guess we're going to have to buckle up and prepare ourselves to hear a lot of well-meaning top WTA players telling us what a great experience they're having of the country.

1:04:23Yeah, I'm not actually, I went last year and then Matt's going this year, we're flipping it. So I'll do ATP finals, he'll do WTA. But going last year was an incredibly eye-opening experience for me. And I came on and spoke to you guys about it after. It really, yeah, I found it very sad and challenging. I mean, in a very different way from, because the thing that the argument most people make is you've got to go there to find out for yourself, which is a really, really short-sighted argument because going there as a white Western journalist, yeah, I was treated incredibly well. Of course I was.

1:04:59Do not judge a country on how they treat white Western journalists. That is not how you judge it. what what you should do if you want to speak to people who live there or have lived there and no longer can or have relatives there and look some people love the fact that now it has opened up inverted commas in the sense that um you know there are things like rock concerts there's this incredible uh football league that you've got cristiano ronaldo and you've got starbucks and women can drive and all of these things that's come at a huge cost because as you said a lot of those people I spoke to last year said the crackdown is kind of more brutal than it's ever been and there's a murderous dictator who runs that country and bs there's no Mohammed bin Salman there's no getting away from that um and nothing has really changed um and I found it really not surprising in some ways but it was quite depressing because obviously and that's the thing as well it's like oh but uh you know the only way we can make change is by engaging with these countries but you know the people who were then asked about it i.e the players are on the payroll of that country are they going to speak out i wouldn't have thought so if they're if they're in a country where they're earning millions of dollars and now on the wta side they're having their maternity leave paid for by that country would you speak out against that country that was paying you that and was sort of securing your livelihood in in some respects again i wouldn't have thought so it seems very unlikely um I mean I'm curious even to know you know as I said before with with the lack of questioning and talk about it on the ATP side will it even be asked to the same extent uh at the WTA finals I hope so but like you said that that fatigue sets in and I thought you know Coco Goff was a really good example of this last year where she was the only one really who engaged on these topics in the opening uh the sort of pre-tournament press conferences talked about it and said you know if there isn't real change I wouldn't come back here well firstly there hasn't been any real change and she's going back and that's fair enough I'm not you know I'm not calling her out but you know and especially not her because she was the only one who really engaged on these topics but by the end of the tournament which she'd won her quotes were about how amazing a time she'd had um and you know she couldn't have been hosted better again it does not surprise me one bit of course those players were hosted incredibly well and also there's that context of that the year before had been this complete disaster at that event and suddenly they're in somewhere where they're really well looked after facilities are good etc etc that will be the case with the the Saudi masters uh men's event as well I'm sure and I will be keeping a very close eye out I hope people are as well you know who's going to be doing the building of all this infrastructure that needs doing in double quick time and in what conditions because we saw that with the Qatar World Cup there have been reports with infrastructure projects in Saudi as well of pretty horrendous conditions for migrant workers um you know because it's an incredibly ambitious country we hear about project 2030 um where you know this whole this whole point is to diversify their economy away from oil and so there's you know there are lots of these projects popping up they're going to host a football world cup um and I wonder you know even you know how much by then by the time of this event in 2028 how much of an issue it will be then and how much the players will be asked about it.

1:08:19Yeah, I think for them, the priority will be the fact that they'll feel they're most probably getting paid what they feel they should and that the other events don't pay them. And it's, for that reason, going to be a hugely popular event, I would have thought.

1:08:38Matt Roberts: The very top players will. But, you know, Is Sebastian Baez going to get an appearance fee in Saudi? But I think the prize money will be really good. Right, yeah. There's no reason why it can't be across the board really good. As I say, money's no issue. So you want this to be, for them, just the best event it can possibly be. And it just builds that sort of goodwill towards the country of like, we're so well looked after here. There should be more of it. I'm sure a lot of the players will come waiting, there should be more events here because nowhere else are we this well looked after or are we this well paid.

1:09:17And if that can be across the board, then all the better for them, I think.

1:09:24Matt Roberts: Important final question before we let you get back to spectate the end of the Monopoly game. Does this spell the end of the Six Kings slam? Do you think we've seen the last of those AI I generated images of what I can only assume was supposed to be Yannick Sinner and Friends. That's the real tragedy here. I mean, what a shame that would be. We might be gaining, but look at what we're losing. Yeah, exactly. Does put it into context. I don't know. I mean, I guess we'll have to see on that. I mean, there'll be at least a couple more iterations, won't there? Because this won't start until 2028. but but don't you know don't underestimate or don't ever put a cap on kind of the ambition because yeah I mean if money's unlimited I suppose yeah I mean you can have it all kind of yeah and you can and with something like the six king slam you can sort of curate it as you want you can guarantee the big names um so I yeah like they and tennis as well and this was put to me by an expert on Saudi Arabia it's like tennis like golf is such an appealing sport for a country like Saudi Arabia because it's such a kind of boardroom sport it's a lot of very like wealthy individuals are into tennis and golf and they're a lot of the people who might be dealing with Saudi Arabia or might have you know considerations about whether to deal with it and so the more you can legitimize it the more for them it just becomes and we should say as well because you know most countries including our own have no scruples about um having big trade agreements with Saudi Arabia and I should say as well I think shouldn't underestimate I mean you guys know about this far more than I do but the live golf thing in a lot of conversations I've had people have said to me you know don't underestimate the live golf aspect all of this because I think tennis power brokers across the board did look at that and were really spooked by well what if they just come in and basically take over the sport far better to work with the Saudis because you know this this investment into sport is clearly a big priority for them much better to sort of cooperate and we can work together um rather than risk you know a sort of live golf situation in tennis and so I think that's partly why they have been so cozy with them and like you say David sort of rolling out the red carpet because that that's very much the choice that tennis across the board both tours throughout really has has taken and so I think that's like another factor to weigh into all of this gosh it's fascinating a lot of it's pretty grim but it is fascinating and I really appreciate your your time on it Charlie no anytime you know keep up the good work.

1:12:22Thank you. Yeah. And thanks for having me on.

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1:13:20Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of the tennis podcast where there is a lot of tennis to look ahead to this week. I've just glanced up at my TV screen and Grigal Dimitrov is on a tennis court hitting balls as we speak. Just before we come on to that, some sad news this week. John Beddington died at the age of 83. John enjoyed a long successful career in tennis administration that included a lengthy stint as Executive Vice President of Tennis Canada between 1979 and 1995 he co-founded the Masters Tennis event at the Royal Albert Hall in 1997 and it was there that well I mean I met him as well but David spent a lot of time with him at that event over the years He raised nearly£2 million for charitable causes within tennis and he staunchly believed that tennis could be a force for good.

1:14:22Matt Roberts: He was also a great ally of tennis journalists. And, yeah, David, you knew him quite well.

1:14:29David Law: Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, an absolutely lovely man. And when I left the ATP in 2002, I'd spent three or four years as part of my role there working on the Champions Tour, travelling around. and the culminating event of that Champions Tour was the one at the Royal Albert Hall, which John was the tournament director of and was the real jewel in the crown, really, of the Champions Tour. And I always got on well with him, always admired how his ambition to put on a great event and to really make it special. He was as enthusiastic as all the fans who came through the doors to watch and that melded perfectly with me, really.

1:15:10David Law: and when I left the ACP he was good enough to give me a job. We worked at the Masters Tennis there for many years, you and I, Catherine, and I just used to love being around somebody with that degree of enthusiasm for the sport and that manifested itself everywhere you went and he was friends with a lot of players, a lot of people behind the scenes and a lot of journalists and that is rare. you know it's there's often a lot of uh caution and suspicion around with tournament directors towards journalists and john wasn't like that he understood the value so i'm biased because of that um but but generally speaking i just i just really wanted to pay our respects to him and pay tribute to him and and to his his friends and family who've lost a wonderful man

1:15:59Matt Roberts: Yeah, thanks David Lovely, lovely tribute Looking ahead to tennis this week In fact, let's look a bit further than that First up, I mentioned earlier The big Yannick Sinner news For the Davis Cup finals And the slightly less big But potentially even more shocking Alejandro Davidovic for Keener news The Davis Cup finals teams were announced this week Alcaraz is in Alexander Zverev is also in. He's playing the finals for the first time. Having said, I think, albeit a while ago now, that he wouldn't play the Davis Cup in its new format. Well, here he is. He's going to play the finals in Bologna, which, you know, in terms of attracting top players, Matt, is a big deal for the event, especially in light of the massive body blow inflicted by Yannick Sinner's announcement this week.

1:16:58Matt Roberts: I mean, look, Alcaraz being in is huge. He does seem to be pretty committed to that event, which is fantastic. But given the new location of this event in Bologna, in Italy, this is, would it be fair to say, devastating for the Davis Cup?

1:17:18Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I think so. If they could have had one player there, you know i think that would have been yannick sinner you know the the biggest name in the country that's hosting the finals and look there were myriad reasons why the davis cup changed format uh you know back in i think it was announced in 2018 it changed the first time in 2019 lots of reasons but one of the reasons was to try and get the top players to play it and i would I don't know the stats on this. I would be interested in the data about whether more top players, you know, maybe you make that cut off as top 10 or whatever, are playing the Davis Cup now compared to previous years.

1:18:06Catherine Whitaker: You know, I think, you know, we have seen quite a lot of top players at this event over the last few years. However, if you're not getting the biggest name there, then something is up. because as David said, there's not an injury here. As much as Yannick Sinner can say, it's about his preparation for the next season. It hasn't impacted his season in terms of the fact that he's won the Australian Open the last two years. It's not a priority for him. That is the conclusion here, that the Davis Cup, even in Italy, when they're the defending champions, is not a priority for Yannick Sinner. and that is pretty damning for an event that is self-branded as the World Cup of tennis you know if it was the real World Cup it would be the priority and I think so I absolutely am disappointed in Yannick Sinner you know I really really am and maybe that's hypocritical you know we're asking for players to take breaks and have rest but I am disappointed in this decision by Yannick Sinner even if it's a responsibility he didn't necessarily ask for in terms of Italy hosting the Davis Cup finals.

1:19:23Catherine Whitaker: I think without injury, he should be stepping up and playing for his country, certainly putting himself forward in the initial team. But it does speak to the fact that the Davis Cup, even with this change, has not become a premium must-play event in the tennis world, even one that doesn't really have that much cut-through outside of tennis. You know, like very few casual sports fans are going to really register what's happening in the Davis Cup finals in a few weeks. And that in itself, I think, is the biggest damning criticism of the new format. You know, like we've lost so much in terms of what the old Davis Cup have had.

1:20:12Catherine Whitaker: We at least needed to get something back. And what we needed to get back, I think, was prestige and grandeur and cut through and all of that. And it doesn't feel like we're getting that. And Yannick Sinner not playing it is is another indication that we haven't gained all that much. And it's yeah, it's just sad because I love the Davis Cup. and Yannick Sinner being there, potentially playing Carlos Alcaraz in an environment like of which we don't get at tennis, you know, with loads of fervent home support would have been extraordinary. And there's no chance of that because Yannick Sinner is not playing because he doesn't think the Davis Cup is a must-play event.

1:20:57Catherine Whitaker: And yeah, it's just a bit sad, really.

1:21:03Matt Roberts: this week in tennis we have the lesser spotted one week long masters 1000 in paris as i said grigol dimitrov is inexplicably making his comeback in the final week of the season i can only assume it's because he's been champing at the bit and he's missed it so much but the timing does seem a little bit odd anyway here he is taking on giovanni and peshi perikar you just Mr. Return. Everybody's back where they belong. The event has moved to the La Défense Arena for the first time, a sort of improved facility. The centre court at Bercy was great, but the facilities outside the centre court were severely lacking.

1:21:47Matt Roberts: I think this is a massive upgrade in those terms. They still have the bizarre low camera angle, which really foreshortens the court which I find very odd I always assumed that was a consequence of some sort of structural issue about the venue but maybe it's maybe they consider it a key part of their identity we have a potential for Rindeknesh against Vashiro in round two and I think Rindeknesh has done his bit and won his round one match so we're we're halfway to a Rindeknesh Vashiro rematch which I would very much sign up for. We've got Shapovalov, Fonseca round one. Jaume Munar against Daniel Medvedev.

1:22:31Matt Roberts: Talon Greekspoor against Gabriel Diallo. And we've already had a win for Flavio Caboli over Thomas Mahatch. Al Graz is the top seed. He's in the top half with Felix Auger-Eliassime, Kasper Rude, Taylor Fritz, Alex Diminor. Yannick Sinner is the second seed and he's in the bottom half with Musetti, Medvedev Zverev, Zverev and Shelton. Are we looking forward to this week? How much energy do we all have for Paris? How pumped are we?

1:23:04David Law: I do like this tournament a lot. I think mainly because it is the one week. I mean, I think they do put on a great event. They get atmosphere. They get fans. There's such a fervent love of the sport in Paris, in France generally, and it's a slightly different crowd as well um so i'm looking forward to it but the i'm afraid the sheer amount of tennis now is becoming ever more a problem generally just uh people just seeming like they're on their last legs or some some being okay and others not and and not you're not necessarily seeing skill levels decide who wins and I hope we go a week without quite the number of retirements we've had in Basel for instance but I don't hold out a great deal of hope.

1:24:00Matt Roberts: Well maybe that's good news for Gregor Dimitrov because he's on his first legs I mean not big picture in the context of his career probably his latter stage legs Last time we saw him. In terms of the last few months, brand new legs. And that's a good draw, isn't it? Pesci Pericard, first match for your comeback. Let's be real about this.

1:24:23David Law: Can't return. He certainly shouldn't expend that much energy in that match, you wouldn't have thought.

1:24:31Matt Roberts: Who's going to win Paris? Matt, a little Paris prediction?

1:24:36Catherine Whitaker: I mean, probably Sino or Alcraz, right? I mean, I think the last five events that they've both been in the draw of, they've ended up meeting in the final. And there was also a week where they played different events, Beijing and Tokyo, and ended up winning in the same week. Look, I want to see Sina Alcaraz. I want to see some of these Sina bits of variety that he's been trying to deploy.

1:25:02Matt Roberts: Is Medvedev in the same half of the draw as Mute? That's my new Ciner Alcaraz. I want to see that in Paris.

1:25:10Catherine Whitaker: Right. Yeah, that's a good shout. Mouté is playing a Pelka, despite the fact that a Pelka gave a walkover in qualifying. He then got a lucky loser spot.

1:25:21Matt Roberts: Probably will have the audacity to be sort of pissed off about, you know, Paris's organisation or something. Lucky to be there, mate. Lucky to be there. The WTA still has some 250 events this year in Hong Kong. Zhang Ji and Chennai. But of course, the WTA finals starts this week on Saturday in Riyadh. We will have a preview show on Friday once the draw has been done and the groups have been announced. We know the pots, the pots that sort of determine what happens with the draw. So we have pot one, Sabalenka and Sviontek. So we know they'll be in opposite groups. Pot two, Goff and Anisimova. pot three Rabakina and Pergoula and pot four Paulini and Keys Matt what's the dream group for you for Amanda?

1:26:18Catherine Whitaker: Interesting question I hadn't actually thought about it I know people think that I think about these things all the time but I do have a life

1:26:25Matt Roberts: People in Wrexham definitely think that you think about these things all the time

1:26:31Catherine Whitaker: I'll come back to you with a definitive answer on our preview show on Friday the key line is Anissa Mova's proven she can beat everyone so there is no dream draw she can handle anything coming at her

1:26:49Matt Roberts: Touche, Touche in the doubles the eight qualified teams are Siniakova Townsend, Irani Paolini Dabrowski-Routliff, Kudomitova-Mertens, Andreeva-Schneider, which is interesting because, of course, Andreeva, for whatever reason we still don't know, didn't fight for that last singles place in the line-up. We had talked about that and I'd overlooked at the time the fact that she was going to get into the doubles, so it was never going to be a week of rest. How ludicrous of me to think that rest might have been on anyone's agenda in tennis. so Andreva and Schneider into the doubles field Shea Nostopenko, Babosh Stefani and Asia Mohamed and Demi Schurz which is a good doubles field and as I say we'll be back on Friday with our preview show for the WTA finals so not long to wait until our next podcast we have a mascot for this podcast that mascot is Bianca I know Bianca Bianca's a three-year-old black and tan coon hound owned by Mike Clary She was born in Portland, Oregon I think I know Bianca We've met Bianca before, haven't we?

1:28:07Matt Roberts: I don't forget a Bianca I picked her up from her breeder, says Mike At eight weeks and we are inseparable She now lives in Calgary, Alberta That is what A-B means, isn't it? Alberta and she joins me in Palm Desert, California during the winter months. What a life, Bianca. That is really living the dream. She loves being in the desert during the BNP Paribas tournament in March. We will be there in 2026 and Bianca would love it if Catherine would pop by our house to take her for a walk. Oh my God. Mike, I'll be in touch.

1:28:47Matt Roberts: That sounds fantastic. I'm looking at a picture of Bianca on the beach with, I think, a ball in her mouth. Very upright, happy tail. What a dog. Lovely, long, strokeable ears. And if you're watching on our YouTube, you'll be seeing a picture of Bianca. Lucky you. So thank you, Mike. And hello, Bianca and TBC on Indian Wells and the dog walk. Hello to our mascots, Phoebe, Maisie and Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers Greg, Chris and Geoff. Matt, let's have some shout outs.

1:29:24Catherine Whitaker: We have Anna Bendo from Dublin, Ohio. Hi Anna.

1:29:31Matt Roberts: Hello Anna. A Dublin in Ohio. Fun. Well, Matt and I have been to the other Dublin together, but not this Dublin.

1:29:43Catherine Whitaker: Didn't know of its existence until Anna Bendo. told us about it.

1:29:49Matt Roberts: Like Anna Bondar.

1:29:52Catherine Whitaker: And Anna Bogdan.

1:29:54Matt Roberts: Anna Bogdan.

1:29:56Catherine Whitaker: Anna Kalinskaya. Who also came up

1:29:57Matt Roberts: quite a lot in Wrexham.

1:29:58Catherine Whitaker: There's a lot of Annas.

1:30:01Matt Roberts: Anna Kalinskaya is the WTA Davidovich Vakina, isn't she?

1:30:06Catherine Whitaker: Yes, she struggles to win titles despite being very good. Yeah. You're going to like this detail, Catherine. Anna says, I finally get the dog person thing as we just got a new puppy for the first time last year. I've never had a dog in my 47 years. He is the light of our lives. A mini golden doodle named Miles. I'm thinking of getting a pet mascot slot next year, says Anna. Oh, Anna, please.

1:30:41Matt Roberts: Oh, I'm so pleased. I'm so genuinely pleased for you that you have this joy in your life now. That's wonderful. Thank you, Anna.

1:30:49Catherine Whitaker: We've also got Michael Gross, who says, Why make a tennis reference when it's much more fun to reference instead Michael Gross of Tremors fame? That was lost on me.

1:31:03Matt Roberts: Should I know Tremors? What is Tremors? Talk amongst yourselves while I Google. Michael Gross.

1:31:12Catherine Whitaker: I assume it's some sort of franchise. that Michael Gross is part of.

1:31:18David Law: It sounds like something that might be related to traitors.

1:31:20Matt Roberts: Michael Gross, an American television actor. Tremors seems to be a film from 1990. David.

1:31:33Matt Roberts: Natives of a small isolated town defend themselves against strange underground creatures which are killing them one by one. The poster is absolutely terrifying.

1:31:43David Law: I have heard of this, yeah. Yeah. But I haven't seen it.

1:31:47Matt Roberts: I mean, genuinely, I'm going to have to get rid of that tab because that photo is going to return in my nightmares. Thanks, Michael, for that.

1:31:56Catherine Whitaker: Michael is from San Francisco, and he has just sort of described himself as a tennis player, left-handed, as tall as John Isner, as graceful as Federer after a few tequilas, and as tactically challenged as Taylor Fritz any time he plays Novak Djokovic.

1:32:15Matt Roberts: I think you mean Adrian Manorino after a few tequilas Michael that was very good very good thank you Michael

1:32:23Catherine Whitaker: and finally we have Andrew Blakey from Auckland New Zealand and Andrew says last year in my shout out I mistakenly referred to the tennis podcast as my guilty pleasure which Catherine understandably took umbrage at

1:32:46Catherine Whitaker: Andrew says what I was trying to say is that it's my comfort blanket when life's getting tough yes

1:32:52Matt Roberts: oh that's far better Andrew thank you for for coming back to set the record he says I always have

1:32:59Catherine Whitaker: the wonderful professional cheerful and friendly voices of the pod to make things more bearable cheers Andrew

1:33:07Matt Roberts: that is a man that's trying to make up for mistakes past and consider it done, Andrew. That was lovely. Andrew, like Andrew Barron-Murray.

1:33:21David Law: That's a good answer.

1:33:21Matt Roberts: Enough said. Thank you ever so much, Michael, Anna and Andrew, our shout out to this week and of course, Bianca, the wonderful, wonderful mascot for this week's show. We are part of the Athletic Podcast Network. Thank you to Charlie Eccleshare for his time. We will be back on Friday with our preview of the WTA finals. Thank you for listening. We will speak to you then.

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