The Big Jack Draper Interview

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1:27Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast. I'm Catherine Whittaker and I am of course joined by my very favourite people, David Law and Matt Roberts. And today we find ourselves not in our usual home studios, but instead in the glamorous surroundings of a recording studio in southwest London and that is because we have company on today's show and not just any company we are very chuffed to be joined by the reigning Indian World Champion and US Open Mixed Double Semi-Finalist of course Jack Draper. Jack. Hey guys. Thanks for being here. Not at all guys thank you so much for having me. Yeah it's it's it's great great to have you.

2:07Matt Roberts: Let's start by talking about how this all came about why we're here um because two weeks ago this interview was not on our schedule it wasn't on our radars and yet here we are um so are you here today not on the tennis court how did this all come about i'm here because i love speaking i love watching you guys talk about tennis i love the fact that you share the the love for the sport as i do i love the fact that um sometimes i'm so busy i can't watch tennis all the time so i'll put on put on a podcast and you know I really enjoy listening to you guys and also on a on a deeper point I want to get into some other subjects which I think a lot of players have kind of voiced their opinion on but not necessarily come out and sort of talked openly about those things so I think being with you guys and being able to express those those thoughts and feelings I think is a really helpful thing for me well the pressure's on for us to make this good because it took David eight hours to get here yes the m40 wasn't my friend today um but you know it is listening it is great for us to have you with us and i mean i think we've all known you for a little while just passing by on the tennis circuit but i think when you actually contacted us and said you'd like to be on the show it was that is probably the first time in 30 years that i've had a player asked to do an interview like that.

3:32So it was very refreshing and it's lovely to have you with us.

3:36Catherine Whitaker: Thank you, Matt. It was a real pick-me-up for me. I was watching Fulham lose away at Newcastle, had no signal, came back to my phone and our WhatsApp group was alive with Jack Draper's DM'd us on Instagram. Are you a Fulham fan? I am a Fulham fan, yeah. Pretty good team these days. I thought it was a catfish. Really?

3:57Matt Roberts: Yeah, I did. And yeah, that is how cynical I have become. Let's start with an update on you. Obviously, the last time we saw you on a professional tennis court, US Open, really tough, tough end to that tournament for you. It's been a tough time. Yeah. How is the arm? The arm's good. The arm's getting better. It was obviously a really tough period for me. You know, I started the year really well, sort of built off the form I had last year. I was playing a lot of matches and really I felt like my game was developing every week and on all surfaces as well the clay was something I always wanted to play well and hadn't yet proved it did well over the clay court season but I did have a niggling arm pain from around Madrid time after Wimbledon it got quite painful well around Wimbledon and the French Open it got quite painful and so had to get it looked at I had a bone injury in my humerus.

4:54And then from there, I sort of took a bit of time, but I wanted to get back for the US Open, last grand slam of the year. And the recovery was going well. I had a scan in the States and looked all good, but then the pain was just too much when I got to the US. So I had to come home and take it really seriously, take some time out. But now I feel like I'm in a really good place and I'm building up for hopefully 2026 being a great year. when you were having that great run of the first half of the year I mean you looked nailed on to be about to play the ATP finals is that how it felt to you or do you not allow your mind to take your way like that?

5:35Yeah I mean I think I was focusing on just improving all the time you know my coach James always spoke about the process of what I'm doing and improving each week I still feel like I'm quite inexperienced on the tour in some ways in the fact that I've played a lot less matches than a lot of these guys and every win, every loss, I learn so much still. So I did feel like my physicality was improving, mentality, the way I was trying to play my tennis was growing all the time. I wasn't thinking too far ahead, but I knew that I was in a really good position. So that's why it's tough to take it when I had something out of my control kind of stopped me.

6:16Catherine Whitaker: You mentioned the US Open there and that's kind of the only tournament you've played in the last few months. Was it a surprise to you how the arm felt while you were playing that? Did you think it was in a place for you to be able to compete pain-free? I mean, I knew there's been a bit of an epidemic with these sort of humeral bone injuries in tennis. The more I found out when I got the injury, I think a couple of people even in British tennis have had them. and when I went to the US I knew it was a tight turnaround but I'd given my best on the practice court to be able to get there. I felt like my arm had improved a lot.

6:54I did experience some pain a couple of weeks before the Open when I was in the States training and I got a scan and it came back with that the scan's all good and there's nothing to be shown even though I was still in a lot of pain. so that gave me a lot of confidence and looking back Paul's hope that my arm was absolutely fine so I came to the US Open and even though I was in a lot of pain I was still carrying on because I thought that was maybe just a healing process or something like this but obviously the pain got too much and I had to come home and take it looked at and I did have quite severe bone injury yet again So I think maybe the scan I had in the States probably gave me a bit of false hope.

7:40But that's the risk you take as a player, especially when you're overseas getting a scan.

7:45Matt Roberts: How do you find it emotionally, like sitting on the sidelines, knowing tennis is happening without you? What's that like? Really, really difficult because I'm someone who loves to be progressing all the time. That's my mindset. I really want to be moving forward in my life especially as an athlete I've really been on that the last couple of years especially 2014 earlier this year and I was on a really good path but I suppose when that gets taken away from you you need to sort of accept it be able to look outside of it why has this happened I've always been someone who's tried to use adversity to better my life in other ways whether that's off the court trying to learn more things around the house, which my mum's constantly going nuts to me about.

8:33What have you learned?

8:37Like putting my clothes away. No, there's just obviously so much stuff outside of life that I can still learn outside of my life as a tennis player. And I guess it gives you a real perspective. I kind of got to the place I got to and I was sort of thinking after Wimbledon, that my arm was not going to be a big issue. And I kind of got emotional because I was like, Jesus, like all this work and now I'm going to here, I'm going to here, I'm going to here. And when that was taken away from me, it was a bit like a bit more perspective of, look, I was in an amazing position there. And, you know, in future now, I kind of try and ride that wave a little bit more in a good way.

9:16Matt Roberts: Do you ever think like, why always me? Like you've had so many injuries in the, like a really tough stage of your career, like the developmental phase. How do you not think like, oh, for God's sake, again yeah I mean on one side of it I kind of um at the start of my career when I turned I turned pro in 2018 2019 obviously 20 2020 2021 we had COVID all those sort of times so I was always a late developer like I um I grew really late I matured late in my body so for the level of tennis I was playing my body was always trying to catch up with that and I feel like I was quite weak in a lot of areas.

9:55So around 2023, you know, I just had an arm injury then. And that was like a real deciding moment for me when I watched Outcry's win World War II. And I was like, right, I'm going to get in proper shape here. I need to do all the things I can for my tennis to be the best player I can be possibly from a mental perspective, from everything. Because maybe before I was being a bit loose, cutting a few corners and the nature of top level tennis is that you have to, if you want to be great, you have to leave every stone unturned. Is that the right way of saying it? So, yeah, since that, I didn't really have any injuries up until this point.

10:34So I guess it's a bit, it's not really a muscle injury, this one, it's more of one way. It's like, how's that happened, you know?

10:40Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, it did seem like your body was finally in a place where it was withstanding the rigours of the tour. You were playing all those five-set matches in Australia and then for this to come must have been really, really tough, as you've described. I'm just wondering, obviously, tennis as a sport, you know, sort of different, like, body types. It's one of the beauties of the sport. Like, you can have different body types and still succeed in tennis. You obviously, as you've described there, really worked hard in building up your strength and your size over the last couple of years. Is there a trade-off there where now that you've got the physique you have, if you have to train a little bit differently to what you did before?

11:19Yeah, I mean, I think definitely, I think there's maybe sometimes a bit of a fixed mind in tennis and the way we train. I think sometimes, I think a big part of mine was like, I did a lot of amazing stuff, but I probably over-trained a little bit. Almost worked too hard and the load was too high. I mean, all injuries in sport, unless they're freak injuries, are load-related. You kind of have to look at yourself and wonder, what have I done that's maybe caused this I suppose for me another part of those injuries were the fact that when I was younger I was very small I was always playing against older guys, you talk about different body types, I remember playing when I was 10 and I was playing against guys who were like 12, 13 they might have had chest hair I've only just got that now so everyone develops at a different rate and I suppose I was always playing men's tennis almost in a young sorry I was playing the tennis of someone who was six foot four in a five foot seven person's body you know that was my mentality was to to run and graft for every point and I had to sort of change that because yeah it was affecting my body and the way I was playing because I was putting so much extra force through these long long limbs did you always know you would grow or was there like a period you were like oh man I hope so you know I was looking at my brother when he was when I was younger and I was thinking Jesus like because he he grew he was one of those who's like quite high percentile um tall wise um so I was thinking like you know there's got to be a stage where I'm going to grow here and then when I was 15 to probably 17 I grew like 11 centimeters each year um very fast um I remember like people who didn't see me for a year and they I'd say hi and they wouldn't they wouldn't recognize me you know because I was just I'd grown so much um So, yeah, there was a real change in that.

13:13And I think my body and everything has taken such a long time to catch up. And I think, yeah, everyone peaks at different rates. All the best people grow late. Keep going and you'll catch up with David. I'm 6 '7". Yeah. 6 '7", yeah. That's ridiculous. 6 '7". But I was 6 '0", when I was sort of 16. Yeah. And then it got ridiculous. 6 '0". So when did you stop growing there? 18. So it all happened in two years, but sadly I didn't become a world top five tennis player.

13:49Matt Roberts: I do remember here, I'm really, but I apologise to this person, if they're probably not watching or listening, but I do remember a commentator analysing your game a little while ago and talking about how you developed your game when you had like a different body of time. So lots of people were imploring you to kind of be more aggressive and play like a six foot four guy with a booming soap but that like wasn't kind of rewriting your tennis DNA yeah yeah it's difficult that's right yeah I kind of got to 40 in the world um I went through a period um around the start of the season in 2000 well last year where I lost I think three or four seven sixes in the third to I think Fritz um Herkatz twice and someone else and when you lose those matches you you kind of question yourself like especially in those big moments what was my mentality what like these top players they're not gonna gonna miss um and so it was always sort of uh one of those where I needed to look at myself and wonder how am I going to develop as a player to to play with someone who's got these attributes of being a being a tall player to be a physical player and and to to play in a way that's going to be opposing and not necessarily waiting for mistakes.

15:08Because at the top level, I think if you want to get right up there, you're seeing more and more with these guys. They're just taking the racket out of your hand. I had to reverse my mentality. So when I worked with a coach who came in, he was trying to get me to play really aggressively. I think I understood it and I tried to make it work. but the problem is it's like I couldn't go from one extreme to the other. I had to find a really good in-between balance and I think that's a good thing for all coaches. It's like don't necessarily take away all your strengths just because you want to change.

15:44It's like find that happy medium and usually if you try and get an extra 5 % out of yourself, you're going in a better direction all the time. I remember you saying something after the Wimbledon loss to Marin Cilic about how, you know, I'm six foot four lefty. People expect me to be able to just play well here automatically. And yet you've won a title on grass. You've beaten Alcaraz on grass. Is your expectation that actually one day grass will be a really good surface for you? 100%. I feel like the problem, especially at Wimbledon this year, was I'd gone through the whole year and I'd played a lot of great tennis.

16:24and usually I'm returning back. I'm playing quite a mixture between defensive tennis but also really attacking tennis. And when you're playing at Wimbledon, you need to have all the tools in your bag, especially when things are not going your way. Marion Chilic that day played an incredible match. He was really aggressive and I just, I guess, I just didn't practice enough the toolbox that I need to be able to, I don't know, just turn around a match like that. I was a bit lost. I needed to stand up the court more. I needed to do things. And I do have those in my locker. But if you don't practice them enough, then you're going to come unstuck.

17:05And I think that's what you see from the best players in the world right now. They have so many things that they can pull out to stop someone who's playing great tennis. So it was a good learning for me. And I'm definitely trying to move my game forward from that point.

17:21Catherine Whitaker: And were you in the match with Cilic realising those things that you needed to change, but sort of just not quite able to do it? Or did that perspective come afterwards when you looked back at the match? No, I mean, obviously I felt it when I was out there. I think a big part of, for me, like I was moving so well earlier on in the year and then, you know, sliding around the hard courts on the clay, whereas on the grass, I didn't quite transfer that. You know, I was still taking lots of steps. I was losing my time, so I felt really uncomfortable. I think definitely next year I'll get out there and start sliding more and trying to do those things, because that's what I've heard from the other players as well.

17:59It's like they just get out there and just try and be confident sliding. I mean, sliding on a grass court, I mean, I've never heard of that, but that's what people are doing now. So definitely it's one of those things. You just have to take that experience, even though it was really difficult, and just try and become a better player.

18:15Matt Roberts: I know it must be really tiresome to be a top British player at Wimbledon and walk into that press conference room and everyone ask you about the pressure. Yeah. But like, it must be a thing. Everyone's going to ask you about the pressure. You know, you're coming in off the back of that incredible first half of the season. Like, life must have changed for you so much over the course of that period and pretty quickly like did it feel like a bit of a salad spinner that experience yeah it was definitely definitely a different experience you know I kind of um I felt like a little bit like that question was being asked the whole time you know especially the British British journalists you know they obviously I know they've been great but it's kind of like even after I won my first round it was like the guy wanted to talk about the pressure on the court in front of all the people and it was kind of a great experience for me.

19:11I mean, I've always been someone who tends to focus on what I can control, so I wasn't kind of losing sleep over it. I just felt like when it actually came down to playing, I just wasn't maybe prepared enough to play the best tennis I could do. So I didn't feel like the pressure was the problem, but it was definitely an experience sort of seeing how much people want to emphasize that word pressure and how much it – and that's why I have so much respect for Andy because he obviously dealt with all that noise and really delivered. And that's something that I think you just get accustomed to. And I think definitely this year's experience will help me for next year, especially as I go on to hopefully become a better, better player.

19:52But no, it's an amazing thing being British number one and to have that feeling. Not many other players have a home Grand Slam where they're coming in and they've got all that support. So it's kind of one of those, it's like you try and look at all the positives instead of focusing on those other things yeah

20:09Matt Roberts: it's weird irony isn't it like asking about pressure is in itself creating pressure which is what i've just done but you know there you are no not at all not at all what's um you probably hate this word as well what's your relationship with fame like that must i remember i remember during wimbledon seeing like a paparazzi picture of you at a petrol station being like that's weird you must find that weird as well yeah I didn't to be honest I didn't even know that that got taken I mean I wasn't really anywhere near social media at the time so it was only actually after after Wimbledon I saw one of the players around the town they came up to me and they were like why are you driving that piece of shit you know I was like what do you mean and it's like oh there's this photo do you want to have a look at it I was like okay and it was obviously me and my me and my polo that's a great car yeah exactly you know I love love my secondhand polo it's nice whipping around London 20 miles an hour everywhere so you don't need any more than that but I suppose my life hasn't changed too much in many ways like I still go on the train all the time I still um just live a very normal life so um I suppose you get written more about um and you get sort of more people talking about you.

21:26But I suppose that just comes part and parcel with being the player you want to become. Do you become aware of it if you're on the train? I mean, especially around that time of year, there's everybody staring at me. No, I mean, especially on the train, like no one really... I see it sometimes, especially like near where I live, you know, people will sort of double... I think people in the States or something would like come over to you and they'd be in your face i think as english people we kind of don't really want to say anything we don't want to embarrass ourselves we don't want to do that sort of stuff so um you get a few looks here and there but nothing nothing crazy and your

22:08Catherine Whitaker: relationship with social media you mentioned it there i mean obviously that's a big talking point in tennis generally i know tennis players are exposed to a lot of really nasty abuse you know with with a lot of people betting on on the sport that's a real problem that the sport has but like what is your relationship you seem sometimes on it sometimes not on it the last couple of years have really gone away from it um you know anything i post on there is authentic and it is me um but i'll probably post and then i'll delete the app you know i'll never really stay on it for too long i hate that feeling when you're just scrolling scrolling what's called doom scrolling you're just like what have I done I've just wasted like half an hour an hour of my time here just scrolling absolute rubbish I need to be productive I need to get going so I try and stay off it as much as possible and I know that sort of I think I was in a generation where we kind of grew up into like into it whereas I feel like now they're growing up with it you know and it's really difficult for them to sort of let go I think I hear TikTok's like the worst one luckily I've never had TikTok so it's an important part of the business though you've got to post more you hear all this stuff post more post more but you know I try and stay off it as much as humanly possible how much is

23:19Matt Roberts: that pressure to like be on social media as in in what way like people saying post more post more like presumably sponsors want you to post more all of that kind of stuff like is that a lot yeah I mean I think I'm quite difficult to deal with with that stuff because I always say like it's about my tennis you know the more I the more I achieve the more hopefully I inspire people the more unrelatable to other people they'll they'll follow me and they'll be engaged with my content and that sort of stuff I'm not I'm not looking to be an influencer I'm not looking to be a celebrity I'm looking to be hopefully someone that can other people can be inspired by or look to um in those ways but I always say it's just you got to be authentic to yourself um and sort of not sell your soul just for posts or likes or any of that rubbish.

24:10Matt Roberts: So what now? Season starts at the United Cup. You absolutely champion at the bit. I'm ready to go, yeah. I'm ready to go. I'm building up currently this week at the National Tencent Centre. I started sort of hitting pretty decent level forehands again. Just started rolling my arm over on the serve. So I'm building all that side of things. I've kept myself in shape. I've been doing a lot of fitness. stuff so come December I'm going to be able to compete again I'm going to play an event in London I'm going to play the UTS get a bit of competition there and then I think I'm playing one more just to get some matches in so I'm feeling good for the United Cup and hopefully having a really productive season How long did you go without playing at all?

24:57I think eight weeks

24:59Matt Roberts: When was the last time you went eight weeks without playing tennis? I must have been like three years old or something I don't know, a long long time maybe I've done three weeks or something like that but it was a long time yeah weird sort of thing but I tried to get away more, I tried to sort of take my mind off tennis, I tried to spend more time with my family which I never do in a way it was amazingly beneficial in other areas You're refreshing yourself aren't you mentally i suppose in that way yeah but i just wonder as well you said it kind of you might get a chance to work on certain things now obviously you're physically uh restricted yeah but does your mind go back to maybe matches you played yeah do you think about scenarios when i come back i'm gonna do i'm gonna handle this like this because it didn't work like that last time are you are you in a sense of kind of constant self-discovery in that way 100 i mean i think as an athlete i've always been someone who what it's funny when someone says oh do you listen to people giving you advice and people can always give you advice i find but the best thing you can do is actually go through the experience learn the hard lesson um go through that adversity go through that I struggle and come out of it and learn from it.

26:22And I think, yeah, like this year, I've obviously had a really good year, but definitely the Wimbledon 1-1 really hit me. You know, even straight after, I was like, I need to change as a player. I need to reinvent my game so I'm not stuck here 12 months later. You know, even though I'm a decent stage in the rankings, I don't want to be out here and struggling like this again. So I'm always in a period of self-reflection and I don't need sort of a big layoff to know that. I think that's always been my mindset. I suppose you're kind of watching the tennis and you're thinking like, you know, I want to be out there.

26:59I want to be competing. But you kind of just got to let it lie and visualise yourself to where you want to be.

27:07Matt Roberts: Are you a goal setter? I was. I mean, I'm definitely... I was until I had a few injuries. I'd set myself big goals and then I'd get an injury or something wouldn't quite turn out. I'd just be disappointed. I think the best goal I've always found in myself, and I'm lucky I've had great coaches who have guided me in this, is that if you're showing up every day, if you're working hard, if you're improving, if you're working hard on the days where you're knackered, you don't want to be there, and if you're just constantly trying to get better as a player, as a person, And that's all I can do. And usually based on experience, when you do that, great things happen and you move in the right direction.

27:54So I think it just puts less pressure on yourself as well. But obviously you need to have those fundamentals first.

28:02Matt Roberts: Was it always tennis for you? Tennis requires such a range of skills that most tennis players probably could have been other athletes, right? Yeah. Was it always tennis for you? no I liked I like playing football you know I see a lot of kids now and their parents and coaches like push them to be really full-on so early going to homeschool tutoring all this sort of stuff and I remember I wasn't really like that until I was about 15 16 you know I was playing football I was um you know just just being a regular kid like obviously I did play a lot of matches on the weekends but I was also playing you know I played Sunday league football on a Sunday and then I played a couple of three four match play on the on the on the Saturday so I always felt like I was just always competing no matter if it was you know football tennis table tennis I always was engaged with some sort of sport and I think that is really beneficial that you're not putting all your eggs in one basket when you're really young.

29:08Matt Roberts: David's got a sideline in football coaching? Yeah, started coaching my son's team. Football? Yeah, I'm apparently quite good at the motivational talks. How would you be his liner? I do have a gut at that. How old's your son? He is 13 years old. 13? Is there a lot of sort of arguments between the parents and all that sort of stuff? I'm a peacemaker, I actually had to have enough on the ground. We had our first ever red card the other day and I He's six foot seven. I was a peacemaker in that scenario. But they're all young lads. They're all strapping stronger lads than me. Yeah, exactly. Jesus. Yeah, just on – I mean, I understand why coaches say you've got to – if you concentrate on the day-to-day, the process, the rest of it will follow.

29:57Good things will happen. But are you a dreamer about tennis? I mean, do you have visions of yourself one day holding the Wimbledon trophy, for instance? I mean, it's a weird journey with that because when I was younger, yes. You know, when I was really young and I was watching the tour and watching those big four guys, you know, I absolutely dreamed of it. And then I think when you come up into the realities of tennis, when you come into the futures, the challenges, reality hits. and you're kind of like there's so many amazing players and very few people make it to the top level and you kind of lose that dream and you stop because, you know, A, you're not a kid anymore, you're in the adult world, but also, yeah, that's the reality and it's like it becomes a dream that's very far-fetched.

30:47But definitely in the last sort of year, I've dreamt about that more and more and that's something that I think now I believe is achievable and that motivates me every day to want to to get to those those stages and I think after you have a taste of you know proper success and what that makes you feel and how proud that makes others feel around you and and also the influence you can have on others I think yeah so now in answer to the question it got lost but now I did. Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income isn't easy.

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33:26Matt Roberts: Now we'll see the schedule and the structure of the sport has been a hot topic of conversation in tennis recently. And we've had some players start to get pretty vocal on a number of issues. Igu Sviantec has heavily criticised the two-week-long 1 ,000 events, which are now prevalent on the calendar, as well as the number of mandatory tournaments that she and you and players are required to play. Carlos Alcaraz has bemoaned the schedule generally, the length of the season, the number of tournaments players are required to play. And we've had Yannick Sinner speak in the last couple of weeks about the Grand Slams not doing enough for player prize money and welfare.

34:08Matt Roberts: which is something that Novak Djokovic has talked a lot about over the years as well. I know that's sort of a very broad range of issues, but where do you stand on all of it? Yeah, I mean, that is the tough part because there's so many things to talk about. You know, I think as a player, when you get asked about it in press conference room, your brain's just fried because you don't know where to start. There's so many different things, whether it be the courts being slower, the balls, the Grand Slams or the ATP, the 12 they masters what we're hearing about more and more and I think that's a big part of why I reached out to you guys because even I put something on Twitter a couple weeks ago because I wanted to get a feel, the reason I did it, I wanted to get a feel of what people are saying, like positives, negatives and really try and get an understanding of it and I find that But, you know, when we speak out about it, we're not very literate about it.

35:07We don't speak clearly enough about what we're actually saying. You know, it's all good and well saying the schedule's too long on the 12-day Masters. But it's important to provide more information around that and why it's affecting the players and why it's being, I think, having such a negative impact on the tour in general. And, yeah, like, I think I've had some time out. I've not been playing. I've not been crazy busy. and it's something I feel really passionate about, the fact that there's so much conversation in tennis right now and it needs maybe someone to just speak up, talk out about it, regardless of any criticism or anything that comes with it and hopefully advocate for some positive solutions in tennis.

35:51What's the biggest problem that you see out there right now? Well, I think it all goes sort of hand in hand, to be honest. Do I think the physicality of the sport has changed? Yes, technology of the rackets, the courts becoming much slower. I speak to older guys who've been in British tennis and around the tour and they're like, when we played, we played on wood courts and these crazy fast courts. I think just the way that players are playing tennis, less guys are probably coming forwards more. I just think the nature of the game is always changing. so I wouldn't say that's my main thing I'd say it's more to do with just the player welfare just the mental burnout that especially certain things in the calendar are causing you're seeing a lot of players come out talk about mental health talk about that feel-nothing factor and I think a big part of it is because tennis players are just on the road so much now and the governing bodies are just adding more days, more requirements to the players and what goes hand in hand in that, which when you can look at a bit more depth is, there's more punishments to it.

37:09There's more, I don't know, just it's really hard being on the road for that long and I'm someone who can go away to Madrid and come back home. You know, a lot of these guys, they are from South America, they're from Asia and they're just never, they don't have any balance of life anymore in such a lonely sport. So I think that's a big problem.

37:31Matt Roberts: So drilling down a bit into the kind of, there's like so many issues at play on the two week long masters 1000 events, the ATP rolled these out as part of Andrea Gaudenzi's one vision strategy. The stated aims of it were to increase the overall prize money in the sport and create this bonus pool of additional prize money reserved for the top performing players at those events and when announced that that strategy it did get decent support from from players that was nearly three years ago now so there's been time to kind of see how it's how it's worked out in practice so over those three years what is your experience of how the extension of those events has impacted the sport and the players and you?

38:23Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to bash the ATP in any way because I feel like the ATP have inspired me so much growing up, watching the Big Four, going to O2 when I was younger and being at the O2 finals and one of the best sporting events I've been a part of. I've got friends who work within the ATP, the tour managers, the staff, all incredibly kind, nice, check up on you when you're injured. and I don't know, I love the ATP. However, there are some issues which, yeah, players aren't happy with. I think the intention was really good with the Masters 1000s and making 12 days, increasing the revenue for the events and giving back to the players, especially the ones who are performing really well.

39:13But the requirements are higher. they've added an extra 21 days onto an already really packed schedule and the slams have also added four days that's a different topic but it just seems like there's more requirements for players there's more punishment when I speak about punishment I speak about the fact that it's directly linked to the bonus pool so if a player was to go out and have a really bad injury somehow there's no protection you know they'll lose 25 % of their bonus pool for each event they miss so say this year I've missed three events like I won't get any of one half of the bonus pool I get a performance bonus pool but in actual reality it's not incredible so I suppose it's more more from my point of view it's more how much it's adding to players being on the road you know it's really difficult for for a player to manage, especially in a sport that's quite lonely, being on the road for those extra days and not having the time to come back in between and just feeling like you're on a constant treadmill where it's like one big event after one big event after another one.

40:29And it's just a lot of players have spoke out about it. I think I saw our crowd say, you know, I think they're going to kill us in some way, you know, but I think people get confused because it's not necessarily about the physicality of the sport it's about just how much players are putting into sport especially if they're doing properly and when it just seems like there's a never-ending cycle of events of competition of training it's it's really really difficult and you'll hear people say obviously we're in such a privileged position I completely understand that we're making great money we're in a in a really in a really good spot playing the sport we love but can the sport be better yes it can and I think it's now up to the players to you know stop talking about it all the time and actually take some action come forward speak about it speak to the heads of the ATP speak to the organizations and really come to some solutions here I suppose you said

41:29Matt Roberts: loneliness a couple of times there like I think a lot of people might say what's the difference between playing five matches in seven days and playing five or six matches in 12 days but But it sounds like sort of experientially, there's actually quite a big difference in that. Like, do you think the emotional aspect of that extra time on the road, isolation, is not there's not enough weight being given to that? It's not healthy. It's not healthy. Obviously, a lot of players have come out and they spoke about mental health this year. And look, I get it. Like I said, it's it's a really tough thing to sort of verbalise because we are in such a great position.

42:10But at the same time, it's like when you're out there, say five matches in seven days is a lot easier than five matches in 14 days because there's so much dead time. There's so much waiting around. There's so much sort of in between. And, you know, when you look ahead in the year that you're going to be playing more of these like the I think they've added, say, five, five more of the 12 day masters, I believe. So in the past, it used to be obviously Indian Wells, Miami, and it used to be Monte Carlo was always the same. But then Madrid, Rome, 64 draw and the other ones the same. Obviously, now we've got Madrid and Rome are different.

42:58Toronto, Cincinnati, different. Shanghai, different. So those added weeks, it's just it's a lot to sort of process and come to. and people will say in tennis you can pick and choose your tournaments but that's not understanding the mindset of a player who wants to do the sport properly because if you want to do the sport properly then you want to be playing week in week out you want to be earning ranking points because the main goal as a player is to get right up there to Turin and it's a dog eat dog sport everyone's playing each week and everyone wants to beat the player that they want to become so it's tough to sort of just let loose and let go.

43:41And also you get punished for those things as well. With the rankings, you get zero pointers, meaning that tennis players get 18 best results in their rankings breakdown. And if you miss one of these Masters 1000s or if you don't play the required 500 events, then you're going to get a zero pointer, meaning that something is locked in for the whole of the year and you can't progress on that. You can't act on that. You can't add points to it. Whereas other people who play can. So it's a really just, I guess, unbalanced approach moving forward in the nature of the game. I think young players are kind of looking ahead in their careers and they're thinking, how long am I really going to be able to play this sport for?

44:30How long am I going to be able to cope with the demands of what I'm doing? and I hate to see that because I know that as someone who loves this sport for me it's not about the money it's not about complaining or anything like this it's like I look at the sport the way it is and I think it needs to honestly go in a better direction where we're looking at the prize asset which is the players and hearing them

45:00Catherine Whitaker: Have you had those thoughts about I might not be able to play into my 30s if it carries on like this It's a tough one for me to say because obviously I have had injuries I still feel like I haven't played loads of tennis but say this year before I got injured I was looking I've already felt like I've had I played a lot of matches, yeah I didn't play a lot of tournaments but I played a lot of matches and I felt like I was always pretty active and I was looking ahead to the rest of the season I was going to be packed again And because the off-season in tennis is so short, you know, it's not like other sports where you get a bigger off-season, you get time to reset, refresh, spend time with your family and all that sort of stuff.

45:44It's like, no, the off-season's four weeks, if that. And then you're doing it all over again. So it's just there's no time to sort of just refresh. and I think that has a big negative on the actual product because guys are getting more burnt out. They're not able to improve their tennis. They're not able to refresh mentally and to feel like they're in a good place to put their best tennis out on the court. And yeah, I suppose it's not just from a player's perspective that it's worrying. I think from a fan's perspective, not only is the Masters 1000s longer, so it's just like, it's really tough to follow.

46:23I have friends, I have people around who they love tennis but they're like I just can't follow it anymore I just can't get I can't focus on what I need to focus on with the tournaments because it just seems like it's never ending and

46:36Matt Roberts: it's right there isn't yeah we're always explaining to people what stage of a Masters 1000 we're at and quite often getting getting ourselves quite quite confused um do you think do you think that Fedor Nadal, Djokovic, Serena as well on the WTA side and the crazy longevity they had in their careers playing into their late, late 30s. Obviously, Djokovic is still going. He might be in his 40s. Do you think that has made the sport complacent about career longevity of players? It's a sport kind of just assuming that that's the new normal now and Sinner and Alcaraz are going to definitely be playing when they're 35.

47:23I mean I think sometimes you'll hear you know people say oh but you know Federer would have picked and chooses tournaments and Federer would have done this it's like you're looking at the most elegant greatest tennis player that's probably ever lived and the way you've played the game it was just outstanding and I think players often or people often look to the sort of the greatest and like that's the norm that's what you should be able to do but I think players are becoming more vocal around it I know the likes of Yannick and Carlos they are unhappy about the way tennis is looking right now and what they have to be able to put out on court every week because their mentality is they're not going to go to the tournament and be like, I can go out early this week and then go home and rest if they're entering a tournament they want to be there for the longevity and they want to be there for the full of it It's like Carlos this year has obviously won Monte Carlo, he's won Barcelona.

48:22I think he maybe picked up a small niggle in Barcelona. He's probably looking ahead and he's probably thinking, I've got Madrid to play 12 days, I've got Rome to play 12 days, and then I'm straight into the French and then to the grass. He's looking ahead and he's probably thinking, right, there's got to be a couple of big tournaments I've got to miss here because I can't keep up with it. And then obviously he's having to choose to pull out of Madrid Masters 1000, which is his home event. all because the days are just, the tournaments are so long. And I think it's a real shame because the whole point, I think, of the ATP doing what they're doing with the tournaments is to protect the tournaments from the big players pulling out and missing their tournaments.

49:07But I think you're going to see more and more top players start missing those big events because it's just, if they're doing really well, they just can't cope with the demands of the schedule. So in a way, I think in the long term, if players' careers are definitely potentially going to get a little bit shorter because of the burnout aspect, I think everyone's a loser, you know?

49:29Matt Roberts: Yeah, it's tough as fans and viewers watching the sport when you know somebody doesn't want to be there. But, OK, for example, Lorenzo Mazzetti has described this quest for trying to qualify for Turin. He's described it as a nightmare, right? Like he's played every week since the US Open. Like that's tough to watch somebody kind of put themselves through that. Yeah. And there's no way someone who's, I think, what is he, six or seven in the world and a great player should be calling it a nightmare. You know, why? Like he's giving so much of the sport. He's, you know, I know Lorenzo is so professional.

50:05He's got a great family, great team around him. And it's like, there's no way he should be saying it's a nightmare. and you know I think the whole point of the the tour is to get these players to sorry the whole point of One Vision for instance is to get the players entice them more to play the bigger events but because the rankings breakdown hasn't changed and the point system you know you've got guys like Lorenzo who are just pushing every week you know whether it's the Masters 1000s or the 250s or the 500 to get to that goal of to rent and i don't know it's just it's tough to see um you know young players putting themselves through so much and they're like it's just yeah it's never ending

50:49Catherine Whitaker: and i think we all are pretty much on the same page with you here and we talk about it a lot and it's really interesting to have your perspective as a player and i think a lot of our listeners and fans feel the same you know i just want to sort of try and put the other side to you and just you know sort of i guess what the atp probably would say and how you would respond to this i suppose like they would say that they've increased the length of these tournaments um because players were demanding more prize money and they have been able to provide that but at the cost of extending the tournament.

51:30Catherine Whitaker: So what would your response be to that? Would you rather have less prize money and shorter events, I suppose? Yeah, I mean, like I said, for me, I don't think this isn't about the money. Like I said, the ATP have had really good intentions, I think, trying to do that. And players have really pushed for more money in the sport and stuff. And they've tried to do that. but I think by doing that the way they have it's kind of backfired a little bit because I haven't heard one player say they like it, I haven't had one coach say they like it, I haven't heard any players, sorry any fans say they enjoy the system and I think what's most important for the ATP is that the players are the most important asset here and so if something isn't working then we need to be able to speak and come to some solutions here.

52:27Obviously, they'll talk about the exhibition chat. You've obviously got these tournaments, but then you're going to go and play exhibitions. I think for the guys who are playing in between Madrid and Rome, playing an exhibition there, if they're complaining about the schedule, they have no leg to stand on at all. Myself, I'm obviously playing two exhibitions at the end of the year, but I'm really not a fan of exhibitions at all. I play because I want to compete for something. I suppose I'm playing them at the end of the year because I want to just get some matches for next year and to feel fresh, to feel good.

53:00And I haven't played one since 2023. And you've got the Saudi event, which I think people need to have a bit more common sense around because if you're in a player's position and it's the highest prize pool in tennis, then it's really hard to turn that kind of opportunity down. And I know it's one of those, it's like, why would you do that? Why would you go there? But the way the ATP are structuring things, especially with the Masters 1000s and the punishment, if you don't go and play all the Masters 1000s, it's like this year, Yannick and Carlos will be the heads of the bonus pool. They'll be the heads of that.

53:40But because they've missed three events, they're going to pretty much lose out on all of it, apart from their performance bonus, which will be very high. So it's like they'll make more money in one night of work as opposed to a whole year of work playing the Saudi event. So it's really tough if you don't know the ins and outs of tennis and the ATP will always say, you know, you can pick and choose your tournaments, you can do this, you can do that. But that's not saying the whole truth and that's a naive approach because you have to understand the mindset of a player and the mindset is you want to keep on going in the rankings.

54:18Catherine Whitaker: and it does also seem a bit different from where like for where you are in the rankings for example like sinner this year obviously missed a lot of events when he was suspended but then like he chose not to play uh canada this year that meant that he misses out on his bonus pool yeah but like as you said he can then sort of top that up with a couple of days work in saudi arabia gets that money he's playing an exhibition in south south korea isn't he started next year with alcaraz he's going to get exhibition offers and opportunities but i suppose for the players who are ranked you don't even have to go that far down the rankings probably and they i guess what you're saying is they really do feel like missing out on the bonus pool is a big punishment and therefore they are really pushing themselves to to play tournament after tournament even if it's having a sort of adverse effect on them.

55:15Catherine Whitaker: 100%. I mean, I think people like Carlos and Yannick, they've kind of transcended the sport, you know, very recently and they've kind of earned that right to, you know, go and play Madison Square Garden, sell out the arena in one night and play up to the crowd. It's a very, it's very different to a tournament week. You know, it's very different to being physically and mentally at a tournament and dealing with the pressure to be in there, the interviewers, like they've earned that right to go and do that, I think. and that's very different. You see that a lot. It's like, why is Alkraas saying that?

55:47But yeah, he's going and playing an exhibition here. It's very different, you know. I think as a low-ranked player, the bonus pool is really important and I think the punishments are tough with that. But at the same time, obviously with the additional days that they've said, you've got to think about the financial cost of your coaches, your family on the road, the other people so it's like there is a lot of expense of the players as well that it's not just all you're getting it in your pocket you're also spending a lot more by being away a lot of the time so there are other aspects to it I think like I said from from someone who loves the sport and someone who really wants the sport to go in a really good direction and wants the sport to have the best product and for players to be happy like there's this never-ending discussion around schedule and it needs the players to come together which I know a lot of people are on board with already it needs to kind of get out of the media and get out of these sort of things so it's not just like he said she said stuff and it needs to come together and we need to be able to sit in front of Gardenzian and have a proper conversation around where this whole thing is going and come to some happy mediums and happy solutions because like I said there's a lot of really good things that are going on but it is most of it is in at the expense of a player and it's it's not properly thought through I don't think.

57:21Matt Roberts: Do you feel like there is unity from the players on this because there's there's ATP Players Council isn't there there's the PTPA there's Yannick's obviously very hot on this um on um this issue with the grand slams and the letter the letter that was signed by both sets of top 10 players did you sign that letter yes yeah i did um and that's about appealing to the grand slams for greater prize money and and player welfare like it just feels like there's a lot of different sort of entities sort of fighting for a lot of the same things but it's it's quite fragmented do you feel that as well like do you feel do you feel represented do you feel like you and the players have a proper united voice who do you feel like represents you in the sport i mean literally it is so fragmented and that's that's the biggest problem in tennis is that the atp the itf the wta um the grand slams they're they're not on the same page they don't communicate well with each other they don't they're not aligned at all and so you don't know who you're going to you don't know who you're listening to there's so many decisions being made without the player's voice or without the players being heard and I think there's been a real growing frustration I do think the addition of the the 12-day masters has really made that come to life and I think players in in my generation have sort of yeah definitely looked to kind of come forwards and and try and try and speak up about it and try and learn more about where tennis is at and the situation is because it's i suppose the grand slams have really increased their prize money but still their revenue share is still at a really low level to the players um so we're trying to seek for more transparency on that and try and understand that more also and where the atp do an amazing job is the the player pension pot um you know mental health support, just being a tennis player in general, the Grand Slams don't contribute to that at all.

59:26And the Grand Slams are the biggest tournaments in our sport and the most well-known ones, they should be, I believe, and the players believe, contributing to that as well. And yeah, it's just having a seat at the table, I think, for the players. Having a seat at the table where we're able to put our concerns through, able to be a part of the decision making instead of all the decisions being made and it's like less noise just all all in one all speaking together and just so it doesn't feel like we're just constantly being pulled in so many different directions and i suppose some might say well you're on the tennis podcast you're adding to the noise you're adding to the the he said she said rather than having the discussion altogether.

1:00:16Is your hope that by doing this, actually more players will step up and eventually a conversation has to happen? I think more and more people are. I think more and more players are getting that confidence to come forward. It's really tough, obviously. I think in the generation we're in, if you speak up, you're going to get criticism, you're going to get shot down, you're going to get people talk about you. And I feel like you've not got to be afraid to do that because I know myself the reasons why I'm doing this, why I've come forward to you guys, why I want to speak out about it. I want to get more players behind me, more players behind trying to come together, trying to advocate for positive solutions to make our sport better and make it better for the fans, make it just a better sport.

1:01:08And that doesn't necessarily always have to be about the money. you know whenever players say something you know you've always got people saying you know you're a multi-millionaire shut up you know get get on with it and my generation would have done this and my generation would have done that it's like The whole point of it isn't to complain, it's to advocate for positive solutions here. And I don't want to take this any further in the media or anything like that. I think it's just a good opportunity for me to come on here, hopefully give other players confidence to speak out about it, let their voice be heard.

1:01:44and then ultimately coming together on the ATP side, on the WTA side and push the governing bodies to come together and really work on this for us and come to some happy medium. What would you like to see it look like? Because here we are at 12-day Masters, which is two weeks of the calendar every time, isn't it? And whatever time you have to put in beforehand, you've expressed concern about burnout. you know burning yourself out who knows maybe shortening careers as a result of it what do you want to see happen do you want it to go back to seven days i would like to see it potentially go down to nine ten eleven days and i think that is really a possibility um i believe i think that will give players more time to to prepare for tournaments more extra days to not be on the road all the time and then the big question is well to do that obviously the revenue is not going to be the same because it's 12 days before and that's going to be less days I myself would say I would take a cut of that bonus pork to make it back to what it wants to be and if the I think if the players really want to push for changes they can't have their cake and eat it and if they really want to make the sport better and if they feel really strongly about this subject which I believe a lot of players do then they have to be willing to take potentially a cut of that and understand that the ATP have tried to do a really good job here and put the money in the players pockets but it's it's backfired and the players hate it so it's like where's the happy medium there so I would like it to to go to maybe nine ten days if in a perfect world also feels

1:03:30Catherine Whitaker: like one of those cases where it's a classic example of everything being connected right because if the if the players do have to take a bit of a hit from the ATP side or maybe the Grand Slams can step up and give a greater percentage of prize money and you sort of make it up via the Grand Slams and then the ATP and and WCA tours have a have a kind of better schedule it seems to me from the outside that if everyone were talking to each other and it was a more coherent ecosystem that would be the case yeah um also i'm just wondering what would what would an ideal off season be like for you you know i think this season what the davis cup finals ends on 24th or something of november and the new season starts right at the start of january like there's so little time there if we're talking perfect world which i realize is is a tricky thing in tennis.

1:04:24Catherine Whitaker: What would that be? How much time would you like off and to work on your game? I mean, I really don't know what's happened with the Davis Cup, to be honest. Obviously, that's the ITF. I know a few years ago when I was coming up through the sport, you had the ITF made some decisions around the lower-ranked tennis. So you had to win eight futures to get into a challenger. I forgot what the tour was called, but it was called something they quickly reversed it. And around that time, they made the same decision around Davis Cup and all these sort of things. And it's really lost its aura, the Davis Cup now.

1:05:00And it's hard as a player because obviously the season's so long. And to have it in the place that it's at, players want to play for their country. I love playing for my country. I love being a part of that team environment. But the truth is, is that I want to also be a top, top player. And those periods where it's important to build your body for the next season. For instance, I think Yannick this year, he's not playing the Davis Cup, am I right? He's probably thinking, I've won Davis Cup twice. This year, I've had a long year, I've had to deal with a lot, I've done well in the Grand Slams and I want to do a better pre-season, I want to improve as a player, I want to refresh.

1:05:41Him and his team have clearly made that decision just to get better and become a better player. It's tough to see when someone gets criticised for something like that because it's like they clearly don't understand the sport and how it is. So I'm really hoping that the ITF really look into the Davis Cup situation especially. But I suppose in terms of an off-season, I'd say a month and a half, you know, would be more than enough, would be great. Just not two, three, four weeks. I really don't think that's beneficial for anyone I think as a fan of the sport as someone who if I was just watching tennis I'd want it to be a bit more scarce I'd want it to be a bit more like more build up like you're waiting for the next event like you're waiting to see how players have improved and what they're doing and I think it's become just so accessible like every week every week there's a different match on there's a different tournament you can't follow it because three different places there's events and um i feel it kind of needs to just take a step back and realize that the product doesn't have to be out there all the time but if we can you know have a product that's out there for for when it's needed and not necessarily like just 24 7 that's that's really important yes big power in like missing something

1:07:12Matt Roberts: isn't there um do you do you ever worry that something it will take like a big shock for people to for the powers that be to kind of wake up and really do something about this like matt quoted on the on the pod the other day like when we were talking about this daniel medvedev once said on the court in one of those like breaking the fourth war moments he was like someone's gonna die and then they'll see which is obviously very Daniel Medvedev but like I don't know like the shocking you remember when Bjorn Borg retired with burnout at 26 and that 26 yeah and that rocked the tennis tennis world like do you think do you worry that it might take something shocking like a a top player walking away with with burnout or something like that or a horrible injury for people to really wake up and act I hope that it doesn't get to that I hope it doesn't get to the point where shocking things have to happen for them to see and to come together and to really sort it out and I suppose that's what the players have been trying to do and that may not make any difference at all but my intention is to try and speak out about it try and get the players coming together to really push for changes so stuff like that doesn't happen.

1:08:37Because obviously in business there's a lot of agendas, there's a lot of different things going on and if our sport is so fragmented and no one's talking to each other and no one's really thinking about the actual product and actual asset of their whole thing, then they need to understand that it's just not good enough and the wheels will come off. It's like going around a corner 100 miles an hour. You can't do that. You have to slow down and then pick up again. I really hope that that doesn't happen. But I think with the way it's going, I think you're likely to see some things. I mean, obviously, you're already seeing a lot of more pulling outs and more strange injuries and all these sort of things.

1:09:22So mainly I'm just sick and tired of all the, and I know I'm speaking about it now, I'm sick and tired of all the chat around it and not enough coming together, not enough unity, not enough people trying to explain how they feel and explain the topics of this situation. You know, it's so hard. I'm not a politician. I'm not someone probably who's amazing at speaking stuff, but I'm trying to explain it and trying to talk about it. And like I said, I'm not afraid of the criticism or things I might get because people always seem to get annoyed when athletes come out and they speak and they think it's complaining and all this sort of stuff.

1:10:04Like, no, it's just trying to understand that it's the players wanting to push for positives and push the powers that be to talk to each other and do the job that we hope they can do and all work together. And the thing is, like, the agendas, I think, are more aligned than people think.

1:10:26Matt Roberts: Like, there's nothing better or more magnetic in the sport than watching somebody that you know loves tennis and loves what they're doing. and hearing you even sort of say the possibility of, speak about the possibility of falling out of love with the sport is obviously you don't want that. Absolutely nobody wants that. That's no good for anybody. And that's quite a powerful thing for somebody that clearly loves the sport, like to hear you talk about worrying about losing that love for it. Yeah. And I think that goes back to the point of how frequent it is and how, you know, if there's never any stop to it, like you can't miss it you can't go back to it so it's like you want to be in a position where you're constantly you know looking for that next challenge and looking to be motivated and and it doesn't have to be all the time like it's just a treadmill you know that that doesn't need to be the case here you know it should be a sport where you're looking forward to every big tournament you can play every big tournament and yeah you're going to pick up injuries and you're going to be mentally tired and all this sort of normal stuff but is there a way we can make the tour better in order to accommodate those things so it doesn't get to the point where a player does lose their love for the sport or does get a really bad injury like you know how can we think ahead and be proactive and not let this stuff happen and and I guess you know one thing I hear is that you know back in the day someone would have played 100 matches and 140 matches and stuff it's like people need to have an open mind that the sport has changed the reality of the I think I mentioned earlier the technology the the physical training you know there's there's no real like weaknesses in top players games now they move like crazy they're sliding around everywhere and the the The average point length is longer, the courts are slower.

1:12:27There's many different parts of that as well with how frequent it is. Yeah, I just really hope that the power that be really listen and understand and want to also make a positive change and know that it's not always about pushing for more money and more days and events and stuff. Just, you know, listen to the players.

1:12:50Matt Roberts: Well, it'll be interesting to see what happens with the conversation now, whether the ATP have a response. We've got a show on Saturday. We'll bring any follow up in that. It's going to be interesting. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the 14500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most.

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1:14:15Matt Roberts: right let's get into a few slightly lighter topics jack um mixed doubles at the us open how was that really enjoyed it i mean i wasn't i wasn't sure to to expect i think for me it was a bit of a a different one because i was like i hadn't played in two months and i really wanted to use it as an opportunity to get out there and play so i felt like i was kind of playing a bit too intensely almost. And a few people did mention that to me. It's good to be locked in, you said. It was good to be locked in. That was my mindset around it. It was like I really wanted just to be ready for when I played the singles to be like, all right, I'm here and I'm locked in.

1:15:00But no, it was incredible. And especially the semifinals, playing on Ash at night. I'd never done a night session on Ash and the electricity of the stadium. I think it was a really positive thing they did and it definitely drew a lot of attention to the sport.

1:15:17Matt Roberts: Could you play again? I've heard the French Open might be interested in doing their own. 100 % I play again, 100%. I really enjoyed playing alongside Jessica Pagula. Obviously in tennis you don't speak to the players too often, especially on the women's side because you're just so focused on doing what you're doing and you're so focused on being around your team. I think, naturally, tennis players are quite introverted in many ways as well, so we don't do well with opening up and talking to each other. It's a bit embarrassing. I don't want to do any of that sort of stuff. She was a great personality.

1:15:57I loved playing with her. I'd look forward to doing something like that again, for sure.

1:16:02Catherine Whitaker: When was your first chat with Pagula before the doubles? well I mean originally I was playing with Kimmen Zhang I was looking forward to that and she had the elbow injury which she got surgery for so I mean I think she texted me she said I'm sorry that I can't play and I was just like don't worry about the mixed doubles just take care of your elbow that's absolutely fine we'll play another time and then I think I was meant to play with Badosa and she had an injury as well so I was kind of thinking like am I going to get a curse you were cycling through the Yeah, am I going to get a partner? Does anyone want to play with me?

1:16:40And then obviously Tommy Poole, I think, pulled out. So Jasper Kula came along. I don't think, I think it was like in the end that our agents set it up or something happened. And I think the first time we spoke together was our first like practice session. It was a bit awkward. And then, you know, the more we got to know each other on the courts, like it was great fun.

1:17:01Matt Roberts: Do you think she'd have you back? Get the band back together? I hope so. I hope so. I've been following her results. She's obviously been playing great tennis. And she was an unbelievable partner as well. I mean, I would say the first couple of matches I played well, the third match not so great. And the amount of time she was carrying me through. I remember when we played against Alcraz, you know, she was taking down on some of those cross-court rallies. And she was amazing. So I wouldn't be... If she went for a better partner, then I'd be okay with that. Did you stick around and watch the final?

1:17:37Matt Roberts: Like, how do you think you'd have done returning Sara Arani's serve? You know what, I was watching... Because... Because... Kasper Reid had a bit of trouble. I was watching it on the TV, I think. It's a tough one because I think usually as the guys were used to standing so far back and sometimes the girls are using those slices really well, right? And it's staying really low and especially someone like me being a tall guy, you have to kind of come up the court and it's a completely different ball you're receiving. And it's really difficult to deal with, especially when Vavasori's, you know, bang over the net and he's just going to put a volley away.

1:18:13I think those two are very entertaining to watch. I really enjoyed watching them. And yeah, like it was, it was, it was a great watch. I watched it on the TV, but there was some, some great rallies in that match. How long does it take to, to get some sort of chemistry in a doubles like, like that? Because I mean, you barely, met each other before. Did it come immediately? Yeah. It's one of those that's kind of like trying to edge in a bit of chat here and there and a few jokes. Definitely the change of ends. Yeah, I don't know. It's one of those she's got quite dry humour as well. Same as me. So you're kind of like what does she think of that?

1:18:55So you're trying to make a bit of chat when you can. But I guess you're just bonding through playing alongside each other.

1:19:03Matt Roberts: Is it right that Nadal was your tennis hero? Correct, yeah. I just loved everything about him. Tell us what he meant to you, if you can sum up. I look back, I had all the kits. I had all the kits. I just think his fighting spirit, just the grunt, his iconic style of play. I remember when I played him in 2023 I think the first set I was kind of playing against him and obviously I think he was injured that tournament but it was like I couldn't sort of get used to his grunt I was kind of I'd never practiced with him before and he's just my idol growing up and to be on the other side of the net from him was a crazy thing and I wouldn't say I was sort of really getting pumped for loads of tennis matches even a couple of years ago, like watching people play and stuff.

1:19:59But I would watch him play and I'd be glued to the TV still because, yeah, who he is, you know, legend.

1:20:06Matt Roberts: Favourite Nadal kit? Did you have the three-quarter lengths? My favourite Nadal kit? Yeah, I actually have a pair back home. I pulled them out on court like two years ago. I think I got laughed off. So that wasn't ideal. but no I think it was the 2000 I think it was 2008 when he won the French Green? Yeah was it the green one oh no 07 was the sort of white and blue and then yeah I love that kit in 08 I think he tore up the draw I think he lost about 20 games

1:20:42Catherine Whitaker: Yeah didn't he drop a bagel on Federer in the final? Yeah I mean the first few rounds I mean there's a famous video of Almagro like it's a very windy day and Nadal's taking him apart and he kind of throws his racket up and he's like I don't know if he's speaking to his coach or someone in the corner he's going to be winning Roland Garros 60 years to come search it up on YouTube he's going to win Roland Garros until he's 60 or something like that and he wasn't wrong because he was still battling and earlier you mentioned that word aura I'm wondering when you were playing Nadal Obviously, it wasn't, as you said, it wasn't like peak Nadal.

1:21:22Catherine Whitaker: But did you feel that aura that he brought onto court? And is that as much a challenge as maybe the match-up for young players coming up against these legends in the sport? Yeah, of course it is. I mean, it's the same for anyone. When you idolise someone growing up and then all of a sudden you're in a spot where you're playing them, it's a bit weird. like you know when you've watched them on tv since you were nine years old and then all of a sudden like you're in changing about to play them and you know they're doing their warm-up and they're getting their headband on and they're doing their crazy warm-ups it's it's a bit um it's tough to focus on what you're actually trying to achieve and what you're actually trying to do your body's tense i think i cramped up in that match because i was just you know i was thinking about it the night before all my friends are messaging me like you're playing it out and there's so much and maybe I was a bit younger then so I didn't know how to switch off from it.

1:22:18But definitely I can see that playing against those guys especially who have achieved complete greatness in the game, even Andy, training with him all the time, it kind of helped me training with him because if I just faced him on the court, it would be a bit weird.

1:22:34Matt Roberts: Is aura something you're conscious of, like trying to create an aura, like being an intimidating presence to the opponent down the other end? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think that's a big part of things, you know, is I always try and think if I was a player playing against myself, then I'd want them to think this guy's not going to give up on any point. He's got a great backhand, great forehand. I want them to see no weaknesses. you know and that's a big part why I'm not a massive fan of exhibitions because obviously when you do exhibitions the sort of the gladiator part comes out of it and you know I'll probably be playing the UTS and look it's a decent event and whatever but I'll be called the power and all this sort of stuff it's like I don't want don't want my competition sort of thinking me as like you know the power you know I want them thinking of me as like oh this guy is is is bang on it and and he's not going to give me a point.

1:23:33Maybe that's just my mentality, maybe that's stupid, but I definitely think that it's a big part of tennis and a big part of any sport is intimidation and being there and your opponent knowing that you're going to be a tough player to beat. Do you think you've ever mimicked Nadal at all? Given he was your hero, you're a lefty, you've got a lot of rotations on your ball, some people sometimes say that forehand looks almost a little bit like it have you ever in a way thought right well he does it like this it must be the right way no I mean the only two things I mimicked are the kit which didn't look great on me at all the long hair couldn't do it and also yeah tried to do the grunt but my voice started cracking after very quickly sounded awful so there wasn't there's not really many ways you can mimic it and so you just get to the point where you're like right i've just got to try and be be the person i am you know um because i think that's why he's so iconic because he's one one one down you've um you've mentioned andy a few times whenever i think of you two i think of that video video yeah yeah does that follow you around it does a little bit you know It does.

1:24:54He's an amazing character. Someone who obviously grew up watching on Sky Sports and watching all of those matches, all those crazy battles he had. I love watching him play because you obviously had that entertainment where it's like, even if he was down, even if he was out, you just knew he was going to come back and you knew he was going to make a deal out of it or something was going to happen. and obviously along with just his fighting spirit and his talent for the game, his vision for the game was amazing. But then obviously getting to know him as a person, he's just a very genuine, normal guy, very dry sense of humour.

1:25:37And yeah, he just makes me laugh, to be honest, because he's really... I think all people who are playing a high-level sport are a bit crazy in their own way, and I love seeing that. and Andy's definitely one of those.

1:25:51Matt Roberts: Did he check with you before posting that video? Andy? Yeah. No, to be fair, so I was going to get the train back from Manchester and then he said, oh, come back with me. I think I had a few sort of pints already. So I was like, yeah, we're good. And then I was like, immediately to him, I was like, let's get on, I'm going to get on the Orcs. So I got on the Orcs and I think I was winding him up a fair bit. And then I just sort of, I took a video and he's obviously there and he's not enjoying it. And then we had a really good time actually. It was one of those, we had like four hours in each other's company and we were both singing a little bit.

1:26:32I said to him, how's my DJ? He gave me a seven out of ten. So I mean for him, pretty good praise. And he lived near me at the time so he just dropped me off. It was a weird one. Yeah, I woke up in the morning and he'd obviously put it on his story and I had loads of different things. but yeah it was quite fun

1:26:51Catherine Whitaker: it's a great video it's on my little list of videos I will go to if I need a funny little

1:26:57Matt Roberts: pick me up, it's fun

1:26:58Catherine Whitaker: it is good fun

1:27:01Matt Roberts: what's Andy's role in your life do you chat all the time, do you meet up is he a significant figure he's someone who I know I can always talk to who I can turn to my brother works with him as his agent at IMG So obviously, you know, he's in contact with my brother. I sometimes ask how he's doing and vice versa. And the answer is he's playing golf. The answer is he's playing golf five hours a day. Actually, I really want to get my golf up scratch, obviously, after my arm so I can go and do something with him because with Andy, I think you've got to compete against him to sort of really enjoy that situation or maybe not enjoy it.

1:27:46But he, yeah, it's one of those, it's like, it's that person on your phone where you'll send him a random message or he'll send you a random message, like abusing each other or like just getting under each other's skin about something. And he's that sort of character. He's like a, he's like a big brother who like is a, is a friend, but also someone who I'm not, you know, not really in touch with loads. It's just like we pick off where we left off, you know.

1:28:12Catherine Whitaker: Did you talk to him about Jamie Delgado at all? and what are you excited about for that partnership? Yeah, I mean Andy and Jamie obviously worked together for I think four or five years. Jamie did a great job with them. I think Andy, obviously Pete's 2016 with number one ranking, Delgues was a part of that. So he's had obviously lots of experience with Andy, done a great job with Grigor, worked with Shapovalov for a little bit and I think I just, I liked his personality. I like the way he goes about tennis. I know Andy's really, really positive about him as a coach, him as a person. And I think a big part for me was, you know, culturally, I think Delgy being from the UK, a bit like my previous coaches.

1:28:57I'm not someone who likes to dip in and out of coaches. You know, when I have one, I like to, you know, I see it as my last coach almost. so I think it's a really really good change really positive really positive thing moving forward to me and and hopefully we can do an amazing amazing work together are there any

1:29:17Catherine Whitaker: things now like specifically that you're really targeting to work on with him yeah I think I think with my my coach still helping out a little bit currently trotters I think yeah after Wimbledon like I mentioned earlier like it's it was really important for me after that period like I've got to have more tools in my tool set you know I've got to be able to step up the court more I've got to be able to it's weird when I'm like when I'm for instance serving volleying on on the ad I don't serve and volley and when I watch myself playing I'm like wow I'm like getting them so far out of the court like why am I not just forward that it comes from a place of fear and not have done it before really and not have practiced it.

1:30:00So I think I'm getting to the point with Delgy where all those things, I'm willing to improve them and I think we're going to really focus on playing more of a 6 '4 player along with that other stuff and trying to be really positive because that's where the game's going. These guys, they're shortening, trying to shorten the points, trying to come forwards more, trying to be opposing on the other player. and I think that's the main goal. And when you see Al Kraz and Sinner doing what they've done this year and obviously you haven't been able to be a factor in that the last few months, you were at the start of the year, you were in the mix there with them.

1:30:40I mean, is it extraordinary to you what they're doing? Is it almost intimidating what they're doing and making you feel, actually I'm going to have to raise higher than I am now if I'm going to hurt them Or do you already think what you saw in the first half of the year could hurt them if you keep going the way you're going and have a good run of health? No, look, I mean, what those guys are doing, the top of sport, their dominance, I think has been incredible. I think obviously Carlos is on six slams, Yannick on four. I think Yannick the last couple of years has been just incredibly consistent.

1:31:18I think Carlos, you know, up until maybe March this year, was obviously playing incredibly well in all the big tournaments, but there was a little bit more of a like, is he going to win this week? Is he not for someone who's ranked number one in the world? Where Sinner, you kind of know he's going to really do well in the tournaments. But then Carlos really achieved that consistency this year and was just dominating every week as well. So I think they've really put it to the players that we're here and we're here to stay and we're improving all the time because we're pushing each other to be better than one another.

1:31:50so not only are you guys going to have to get to our level but you're going to have to improve past that because we're constantly improving as well so I think I'm still a long way from them in terms of what they've achieved on the court and also their experience in the big events and playing slam finals and all that kind of thing but I'm a big believer that anything's possible so I'm going to try and focus on what I can control I'll try and focus on getting fit, getting to the point where I'm competing week in, week out again, giving myself the best chance of improving and gaining my confidence.

1:32:30And I think, you know, there's no reason why I don't see myself competing with those guys.

1:32:34Matt Roberts: We do Q &A shows quite a lot. And one of the most common questions that we get from our listeners is who's going to be the Djokovic, the third man in the Alcaraz to enter the Alcaraz Cina kind of duopoly the way Djokovic muscled into the Federer and Nadal thing like we get that question so much it feels like that's quite a common topic of discussion in men's tennis at the moment are you like I want that to be me of course yeah but I'm also aware that there's so many amazing young players you know you've got just to put a few names out there you've got like Fils, Fonseca, Mensip you know you just got so many young players who are being so professional and being so focused on that goal as well and also players like Medvedev and Rublev, Tisipas and Fritz these guys as well who are gunning for them also so I think tennis is in a really healthy spot right now there's a lot of healthy sort of competition to those guys but definitely you know with the way I saw my tennis going and with my trajectory from from being um at the spot I was to to then getting to a career high ranking um this summer I was feeling like I was improving all the time and I was getting closer still far away but I was getting closer so I feel like if I can just get back on court get doing what I can do out there again then it's gonna be hopefully I can close that gap even more you obviously like so ambitious so dedicated that involves a lot of sacrifice right do you ever sort of think about what you're missing out on do you ever crave a normal life no to be honest um you know I always knew that this is what I wanted to do um and I think that um I live such a an amazing life you know I've traveled the world from a young age um sort of part partying and all that was never my thing um obviously I look at my uni friends now and they probably they see me and they're like wow like Jack uh you know you've achieved some some really great things and and I'm kind of like yeah but I'm seven years ahead of you because you know I kind of went into the adult world at 16 you're just going into that now so um I guess part of me is like I understand why people would sort of see that but I feel like I guess any player who wants to be great at something you kind of have to lose your mind a little bit and you kind of have to be so um focused and so ambitious on what you want to achieve and most athletes are like that and so we just I think we just see the world a little bit differently and it just makes the sacrifice worth it um and also when you see the the proud faces of your grandparents and your your your mom and all these people it just makes it makes it worth it you know does that make it hard to know like what is an what is an unhealthy state of mind like if you have to be a bit unhinged to to be an elite athlete like how do you know like oh shit i'm in a bad spot here like this isn't okay I need some help or whatever like I don't know yeah yeah I mean it's a weird one I had this conversation with someone you know a couple days ago because they they know me and they said oh you know do you not do you not ever sort of sit back and think you know I've been a top player in the world and I've achieved so much and like just kind of give yourself a lot of credit for that and sort of take a step back and relax almost but the truth is that tennis and being an athlete is an amazing thing and achievement is great and success is great but my mindset has always been I've got to keep on moving forwards and that stuff is great and the process of it is almost better than the win the the main thing is living the life that I'm doing and being around physio and my SNC trainer who I have a laugh with and being on the court and striving for that goal it's not necessarily about the success and some of it is like it's not actually that fulfilling when you get to that point you know you've got to do some other stuff around it you've got to live a life where you're being fulfilled by other things and not just not putting all your worth on just being the tennis player because it's hitting a ball over the net you know it's not what i was saving lives out there madison keys talked about that didn't she after winning the australian open like the the therapy process of like realizing if you're looking for a trophy or an achievement to fill you up it's never going to and and almost that

1:37:24Catherine Whitaker: realization being the trigger for her then being able to win the trophy 100 100 and and i think that takes pressure off you i think if you because at the end of the day like no matter what you achieve and stuff unless unless you're winning grand slams if you're not a good person alongside with that then you know the the achievements are the achievements no one really gives a shit everyone's so focused on their own lives and their own problems and their own things going on so yeah i think if you put all your worth in that it's a dangerous dangerous road to go down how do you relax how do you not think about tennis um try and spend time around my family my dog I do normal like watch Netflix like I'm just very normal like going going for walks I mean I'm 23 it sounds so so weird but that's the thing that's the thing in sport you have to grow up so quickly and you have to get used to a different way of life very very early on um so so yeah I suppose there isn't a lot of time to rest because there's always stuff going off court sorry there's always things that need your attention and responsibilities and that sort of thing but i try and um just do normal things when i get time any netflix box set recommendations i think i think i've watched a fair few um i'm at the point now i'm just scrolling on netflix and i'm i'm not giving anything a chance anymore like it's too much just like rubbish rub i haven't I haven't given it a chance.

1:38:58Like, I'm doing that thing that people do. They go back to the stuff they've watched already and just get 20 minutes of something, of a film they've watched, their favourite part of the film, they watched 20 minutes of that. And that's good. But I think the last couple of things I watched, I watched Mobland, which is on Parallel Plus. Really good. Tom Hardy.

1:39:16Matt Roberts: It's got Chris Brosnan doing an accent in it. Yeah, is that not a good... I haven't seen it. I've heard about the accent. What, in not a good way? Well, he's Irish and he's doing an Irish accent, but badly, apparently. I don't know. It said on one of your bios that you wouldn't have minded being a detective. Yeah, I was just about to mention that. One that's a bit more like, I'm sure, Silent Witness, I've been watching that a little bit. Oh, a classic. Wow, okay. Actually, no, but it's good. It's old school. Old school. And it's the good storylines, good bit of time to watch them. Yeah, I enjoy that stuff.

1:39:54and to the point there, yeah. I've always been fascinated by that stuff.

1:39:58Matt Roberts: Are you into The Traitors? The Traitors? Yeah. What's that? Oh, Jack. Can I hear about The Traitors? Even I know what it is. What's it on? BBC. BBC, yeah. Yeah, it's the best show on television ever. What's it about, though? You'd love it as a detective wannabe.

1:40:16Catherine Whitaker: It's a reality show. It's a reality show.

1:40:18Matt Roberts: Don't, I know. You've already lost me, man. No, no, no. Sorry, I take that back. not really on that I'd have reacted like that as well just give it a go Traitors yeah you must have heard of it no really people in cloaks I've heard it's reality TV people in cloaks I've lost how many episodes do I need to give it a chance oh one then you'll be hooked if you're not hooked after one it's not for you there's something wrong with you So on the iPlayer, go back to episode one, series one. I did it just two weeks ago after telling these two I will never watch it. And you enjoyed it. I'm into season two, episode eight.

1:41:02Matt Roberts: My next question is, would you go on Celebrity Traitors? I think you can safely ditch that question. Celebrity Traitors. Sorry, is this the one where they go and they're able to sort of be non-detected or something? Yes, exactly. They're like all in the castle. and some of them are traitors, the others are faithful. You've explained that so badly. And you have reality TV with people with capes. Are you a good liar? Not really, to be honest. I can't, yeah. You'd be a faithful then. Faithful? Is that like a traitor? You'd be a bad traitor like me. They tell me I would be a terrible traitor.

1:41:39Catherine Whitaker: But you could use your enthusiasm for detective work to try and figure out who the traitors are.

1:41:43Matt Roberts: You could figure out who's lying. Why is it called traitors though? Why is traitor a part of it? So there's like a group of 20 people and three are chosen to be traitors. Okay. And they have to keep that a secret and the others have to figure out who the traitors are.

1:41:58Catherine Whitaker: Okay. And we as the audience know who the traitors are. So we're listening in on all their conversations, trying to come up with their theories and all that kind of thing. Nice. It is great. All right, I'm going to get into that. I promise you it's great. I'm going to get into that. BBC. Yeah. Traitors. This is real proof that you're not on social media. Yeah.

1:42:14Matt Roberts: Because it's... Is it new, is it? It's the only thing on social media.

1:42:17Catherine Whitaker: It's all my algorithm is feeding me. Yeah, that's because probably all you're talking about is the ears. Right, exactly.

1:42:24Matt Roberts: I've got to ask you about your dog. Yes. Tell me about him. Aussie, yeah, big part of family life now. I think we never had a dog. And then about six years ago, I said to my mum, we're getting one. And no to like, I can't look after it or anything. We're just going to do it. and had no experience of animals at that point. And then actually getting one and understanding how much love and how much just affection they give. And it's just like you can't imagine your life without them. You know, my mum sort of, I'm like the third in the family now. I've got Ozzy the dog, my brother, and then me. So it's like you're kind of down the pecking order.

1:43:12Matt Roberts: Why is your brother ahead of you? just the oldest isn't he he's the oldest and and so like well Ozzy the dog he's he's the oldest now because he's what 56 and dog is whatever it is so he's like a middle-aged middle-aged man now but he's he doesn't act like one he's very cheeky he's got a proper personality about him um and I think yeah it's just amazing like when you have a tough day tough day at work or tough day with anything like I mean most days I'm on the phone to my mom and I'm just like I don't even know one I want to know how she's doing. I just want to know how the dog's doing. Is Ozzy good on FaceTime?

1:43:49Matt Roberts: Billie Jean's a good FaceTimer. Yeah, my mum sometimes will send me a message, like a photo, and it will just be like my dog, and then it will be like calling. And then it would like, obviously I've missed the call, and she would just put like, Ozzy called. So, no, we've got a really special relationship with my dog, and I think animals just in general just give you so much life. and that's such an amazing feeling. Billie Jean is a similar age though, right? She turned five yesterday. Right. Had the pleasure of meeting her. She was lovely. She's a good one, yeah. She is.

1:44:28Catherine Whitaker: She liked meeting you, I think. Yeah. Yeah, we got good reports.

1:44:32Matt Roberts: She did bark at you. She did. It was a tough start, but then... Yeah, but she's protective. She's protective.

1:44:42Matt Roberts: I've got nowhere to go from Billie Jean the one point slam I've already pitched the one point slam we've already gone here have I persuaded you on the one point slam I think you have yeah I think you have I think tennis needs more more crazy bits to it it's like you want to watch something that you haven't really watched before and to see what was the concept it was like top players playing one point against, was it club players or just? Club players, yeah. So they can play. They're not, you know, they know how to hold a racket. I just think, yeah, it's an interesting concept and something, especially in Australia, they'll be lapping that out.

1:45:22They'll be loving it. So I think it will be, I think it's a positive thing. I think it's interesting.

1:45:26Catherine Whitaker: I'm kind of interested from your point of view as a pro, if you're playing the one point slam, would you rather serve and have one serve or receive but know that they've got two serves? Which do you think gives you the greater edge?

1:45:46Matt Roberts: I don't think Jack's worried about edge over Australia's club players. So you'd have one serve if you were

1:45:51Catherine Whitaker: the pro. So the pros only get one serve whereas the amateurs get two. I think return. I think I'd be on the return. And kind of put the pressure on them. Yeah, put the pressure on them. Chance of double fault is quite high. Especially if there's a lot of people watching they probably may have not had that before and it's tough to bang down a good serve or something they'll probably want to get that first serve in so they'll roll it in I just think yeah if you put the emphasis on your one service it's a bit embarrassing if you go out like that but then I want to see them at least hit one ball I think that's the right answer like we talk about this and we're like we would not we would not want to like if it is for money and stuff million the organisers are going to be very gone if a guy just rocks up onto court and a player misses one serve and they've got however much money they've got doesn't really you know you've got to actually like put one ball in court I think I agree

1:46:52Matt Roberts: Jack I look forward to seeing you in the one point slam in January Catherine would

1:46:56Catherine Whitaker: like a cut of your earnings for persuading you to play you can figure that out we'll see I feel like

1:47:03Matt Roberts: I should have a cut of whatever Tennis Australia are making for the one-point slam. Yeah, Catherine has been the biggest proponent of it. Catherine's arrival onto court when they were playing the one-point slam last year, she couldn't have been more cynical, less interested, and within about 10 minutes, she was hooking and a hollowing. It's important to be able to admit when you're wrong. Yeah, of course, you've got to front it up. Yeah. Jack, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, guys, and thank you for spreading really positive message about tennis to be around people who actually love the sport and who sort of are following the players all the time.

1:47:44Even when we had a little break for one second, you're looking at Turin and you're passionate about what's going on. And I think you share that love for it the same as I do and all your listeners as well. It's a real pleasure to be here and to get to know you guys, all amazing people. So thank you. Look forward to seeing you around.

1:48:04Matt Roberts: Likewise. Thanks, Jack. See you in Australia. See you in Australia. Yep. See you there.

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