US Open Day 13 - Is Ben Shelton The Guy?

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1:21Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the tennis podcast on Friday night in New York. Men's semi-final Friday that has just concluded with Ben Shelton becoming the first black man to reach the US Open final since Arthur Ashe in 1972. He'll face top seed Alexander Zverev on Sunday, both of them aiming to win a first US Open title. I'm Catherine Mitica. Alongside me, as always, are David Law and Matt Roberts. We've been here in New York bringing you daily shows throughout this US Open fortnight, as we do at every Grand Slam tournament. It has been quite a two weeks already, and it is going to be quite an occasion on Sunday, David, to see Ben Shelton aiming to become the first American man to win this title since Andy Roddick all the way back in 2003.

2:15David Law: Yeah, it's a huge moment. We had one moment a couple of years ago when Taylor Fritz, as an American, was in the final as well. He came up short against Yannick Sinner, but there's a feeling that Ben Shelton is closer than that, partly because he's playing so well and we can get into that, but also because the opposition isn't as terrifying, frankly, as Yannick Sinner has proven to be over the last few years. So it's an enormous moment. It was a huge moment inside the Arthrash Stadium tonight with Francis Tiafoe and Ben Shelton going toe-to-toe. Strange one for the crowd, but my word, did they create an atmosphere and they had a show to be fitter.

2:57Matt Roberts: It does feel different to two years ago, doesn't it, Matt? Because we were all here when Taylor Fritz reached the final and it was the same narrative, aiming to be the first American man to win the title since Andy Roddick and it was only two years fewer since it had happened at that point and yet somehow this feels really different.

3:16Catherine Whitaker: And it's interesting how it feels so different when you think that Yannick Sinner at the time, like Alexander Zverev, was a one-time major champion and yet he felt like such a sure thing even then, and the consistency that he put together that season, and the way he'd made his way through this tournament being really convincing, it's very different, I think, to Alexander Zverev, who I do think goes into Sunday as the favourite, Zverev. I think we should say that, given his record against Shelton, his record against lefties, the fact he has won a slam, the fact he doesn't have the pressure of trying to be the first American man in so long to win a major.

3:59Catherine Whitaker: I think all of that is on Zverev's side in this one. But yeah, as much as Taylor Fritz was talking up himself and his pace and that matchup going into the final, I don't remember feeling like I was giving Fritz much of a chance heading into that one. Whereas I've just been so convinced by Ben Shelton in the last two rounds. and I think it's the win over Carlos Alcares really still for me that is making me feel differently about Shelton going into this one and he's backed it up tonight with a very, very impressive performance after a bit of a slow start. And yeah, there was a moment at the end when Tiafo climbed over the net and embraced Ben Shelton and, you know, these guys are obviously trying to win majors for themselves but they both know the bigger picture of American tennis that they're part of.

4:58Catherine Whitaker: And it did feel like it was Tiafoe saying, right, go on then, Ben. You are now representing us in the final. Give it your best. And it's going to be a hell of an occasion on Sunday.

5:10Matt Roberts: 4-6, 6-3, 6-3, 7-5 over Tiafoe tonight for Ben Shelton. How close was Tiafoe able to make that match? was Shelton as good as he was against Carlos Alcaraz three nights ago? Did he need to be, David?

5:27David Law: In some ways, I think he was better. Now, obviously, he didn't need to be as good to beat Tiafoe as he did to beat Alcaraz, because Alcaraz is just at another level all entirely. And I think that that is, by the way, another reason why Shelton feels more of a threat for this title than Fritz did, because Fritz didn't have to do that. He didn't have to get by Alcaraz to get to the final. So we hadn't seen that level from him in quite the same way. He played well, don't get me wrong. I was surprised at how flat Shelton seemed in the first set. And all credit to Tiafa, he took advantage of that. But once Shelton had got his teeth into the match, he really accelerated away.

6:14David Law: He dominated this match. It was a decent enough flurry from Tiafoe at the end to make that third set competitive. But I was blown away by what Shelton was doing. His movement is never really a surprise to us because we've seen what it can do. Matt Futterman came up with a great line next to me saying that he feels like after he's played on the natural surfaces of clay and grass, he's so happy to have the solid ground beneath his feet that it makes him even move better. It's kind of, you know, he's almost been weighed down by those surfaces. It's like running with ankle weights and suddenly taking them off.

6:52David Law: And I thought, what a great line that is. But the revelation here, obviously the serve is a great serve. It's become an even better serve because of its variety. But it was his backhand. I just couldn't believe that this is the same backhand that we've seen for the last three years, which looks like a liability, which looks like, And I think the cars you can hear are the ones trying to leave the Arthur Ashe Stadium at the moment. It's the celebrities, I think. Ah, I see. But, I mean, Tiafoe, I think, went into this tournament instructed by his team and probably living off memories as well of beating Ben Shelton here.

7:30David Law: Pick on the backhand. Target them. I mean, it was relentless. Cross-court forehands galore into the backhand, left-handed backhand of Shelton. Inside-out backhands of his own. into that backhand corner. And Shelton was handling them all, whether it be full-blooded drives that were going deep and staying in the rally or even taking them over, often diffusing rallies with great slice. I think his decision-making as to when to play slice and when to drive was imperious. And then the confidence to just suddenly go for a line or go for a winner. And he's hitting that backhand as confidently as some of the better backhands in the game at the moment.

8:13David Law: And yet I'm sure it's technically inferior to some of them, but he has turned that shot around. And, yeah, I just couldn't be more impressed with him, really. And there was a moment when Matt Futterman said to me next door, you know, I think Tiafell will have a flurry again, another flurry. And he did. In the fourth set, he had a flurry at the start, and Shelton had to sort of hold him off. And Matt said to me, do you think he can close? Or do you think this becomes an ordeal? And I said, I think he can close. I really believe in Shelton's, frankly, his chutzpah, his self-confidence. Even though this is a massive deal, I didn't doubt that this guy could get the job done.

8:56David Law: And that's what he did.

8:57Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, there was a moment at the end of the third set where Shelton already had a break of serve. and Tiafoe was serving to stay in the set at 3-5. And it was almost as though Shelton was mocking Tiafoe a little bit with his game because Tiafoe was serving and Shelton was stepping in and crunching return winners in a way that I've never seen him do before. And he just wouldn't let Tiafoe out of this game. And Tiafoe, I think, was experiencing a bit of a physical lull at that moment. but Shelton was so locked in, his backhand, as David said, was so good and his return was so good in that game, he just kept coming back at Tiafoe and Tiafoe was huffing and puffing and trying to get to the sit-down.

9:47Catherine Whitaker: Shelton was standing at the back of the court flipping his racket and standing there so relaxed, so in command of his own game and he ended up winning that game and taking the set and I think just proving his superiority in that moment And I think David's absolutely right to highlight that backhand from Ben Shelton as a key area in his game that has visibly improved and made him a better player. The one other thing I wanted to shout out, because he's done it in two matches now, is his ability to halt momentum that the other player has got. and we saw it against Carlos Alcaraz in the end of the third set when Alcaraz played an unbelievable point and had breakback points to get that third set back on serve and Shelton then went toe-to-toe with him from the baseline and won those points and won that set and he did the same tonight at the end of the second set when Tiafoe's already leading by a set.

10:45Catherine Whitaker: He has just played the most unbelievable point and got everyone off their feet, Tiafoe, in that stadium and then Shelton won the next five points. And that ability to stop the momentum of the other player is something that I've seen in my time watching tennis. Novak Djokovic do that better than anyone. How many times has someone won an amazing point against Djokovic and you think, OK, that's going to be a key moment. And Djokovic just stays so firm and doesn't let one point snowball into another one and says, OK, you're going to have to do that again. You're going to have to do that again. and Shelton has had that quality in these last two matches against Alcaraz and tonight against Tiafoe and I've been so impressed by that, by kind of his match management.

11:31Catherine Whitaker: I think he's had this business mode look on his face in both matches and it's different. He's not getting distracted. He's just so focused right now and I think even at the end of the match you saw that, yes, this was a big win for him, but he knows that there's one more And I think he's absolutely gunning for that title and so focused in a way that I've not seen from him before.

11:58Matt Roberts: It's aura, isn't it? He's got aura. He's carrying himself like a ground slam champion, like it's his. Like it's his to lose. And it's not necessarily the most endearing. I don't think everybody would necessarily find it the most endearing, but it's bloody impressive. It's quite a sight to behold, seeing somebody that's never even been to a final before be able to carry himself in that way and be so convincing about it. I mean, there's Alpha and then there's that.

12:32David Law: Yeah, and I think he needs to do that to play to his peak, actually. I don't think if there was any subservience in him, if there was any... If he was too polite about it... I mean, look, once they'd finished the match, It was all hugs and this is my big brother. That's what he said in the post-match interview on court there to Chris Eubanks. But in the moment, he needs to be that guy.

12:58Catherine Whitaker: And it was kind of a spiky match. It wasn't between Shelton and Tiafoe necessarily, but Shelton was...

13:07Matt Roberts: He took it out on Orly Tours, didn't he?

13:08Catherine Whitaker: He did, very much so. He was very annoyed at the amount of time that Tiafoe was taking and the fact that he wasn't being given a time violation with the clock being down to zero. and mid-game, Shelton went up to the umpire already taught and made his point. He made it again at a changeover saying, well, it's on you. You've got to be giving him the time violations. But, you know, to do that...

13:29Matt Roberts: Good luck on Sunday, Ben.

13:30Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. To do that against, you know, a friend, I think shows the real headspace that Shelton's in. Absolutely.

13:39Matt Roberts: Big time fangs, yeah. Should we talk about the 158-mile-per-hour serve?

13:45Catherine Whitaker: That was and then wasn't. Yeah.

13:48David Law: Funnily enough, shortly before it, Mary Carrillo said he's got a serve that could put down a bear. When he knocked a 149 down. And this one, I mean, it was so innocuous. It was a kick serve. It wasn't a big serve. It was a kick serve out wide. Yeah. And it didn't sound of anything. I wasn't really watching it. You know what I mean? And then suddenly you see 158 and you think, wow, great. You know, he's broken the record of Andy Roddick at 152 from years ago. And his own one, and then you think, hold on, his own fastest is 149. How has he upped that by nine miles an hour in about 10 minutes? I don't believe it.

14:31David Law: And sure enough, turned out to be nonsense.

14:34Matt Roberts: Yeah, Hawkeye poured cold water on everyone's fun. not before some quite big official accounts had tweeted about the fastest serve of all time.

14:45David Law: Including the official US Open one.

14:47Matt Roberts: Yeah, but it turned out to be 144. Yeah. Big serve. Big serve. Great, well done.

14:53David Law: Not record-breaking.

14:54Matt Roberts: Not at all record-breaking.

14:57David Law: Maybe that's the same glitch that Sam Groth had when he hit 160-plus. At a challenger. In a tournament that nobody was at.

15:08Matt Roberts: I bet he's still talking about it though David

15:10David Law: Yep Jim Currier said on TV when he was talking about that he said I've seen a lot of Sam Groff serves none of them were anywhere near that fast so excuse me if I don't believe that

15:22Matt Roberts: On TFO I thought he was awesome I don't think TFO can play any better than that I really don't I felt for him a lot obviously we had this is his third US Open semifinal now after his first one we had that defining moment the loss to Alcaraz in 2022 the defining moment of him doing an on-court interview after a defeat which is very rare in itself and he takes the mic and he says I will be back and I will win this one day and I love that I love that moment I love that he did it truth be told in my heart of hearts I was surprised that he said that and I and I thought I don't think he will like I I would love it but I just never have thought of him as somebody with the game quite to be a Grand Slam champion as much as I would love that to happen

16:23David Law: what do you think now you see I probably believed it more then than I do now when he said that, are caught up in the emotion, probably a little bit like he was, and having seen him go toe-to-toe with Alcaraz the way he had, I thought, well, he's got years left. I mean, what was this, four years ago? So he would have been 24. Now he's 28. And we didn't know then what we'd got on our hands with Yannick Sinner, for instance, and how dominant he was going to become. So, and then we've seen these enormous dips from Tiafoe as well, and he's had his moments again a couple of years later when he got to the semis again.

17:04David Law: And here he is in the semis this time whilst maximising his game. There's no question about his work ethic this year and his clocking in and being ever-present. And I agree with you. I think he played well today. I do question whether he overdid the targeting of the backhand. I think not to say that I wouldn't have done that. I would have expected that to work. But when it wasn't working, I wonder whether he needed to open that court up more because he was doing it almost to, you know, this is the tactic we came up with. I've got to carry on. But again, it's when are you going to play these tournaments when Sinner and Alcaraz aren't there?

17:45David Law: You know, this is one of your big chances. This is your surface. This is your crowd. And Ben Shelton showed him tonight that, well, he is also better than Francis Tiafoe. So I don't think he will win one, unfortunately for him.

17:59Matt Roberts: Would you have said he would in 2022?

18:01David Law: I would have been surprised if he hadn't. At that stage, I would have backed him to get to a final. Like, at that stage... We can probably go back and find the tape.

18:09Matt Roberts: Probably, yeah.

18:10David Law: We did do a podcast. I suspect I wouldn't have expected him to have a sudden drop-off, for instance, straight afterwards. And these dips and these troughs, maybe that's naive of me. But I kind of thought he'd had such a taste for it It got Wayne Ferreira, who's such a taskmaster. And I really thought this would be a steadier climb. And actually, it's ended up being a roller coaster. So, yeah, I think I would have had more confidence back then than I do right now for him.

18:37Matt Roberts: Where are you feeling about Tiafoe, Matt?

18:40Catherine Whitaker: Very similar, really. I'm so impressed with the work that he's put in over the last year and working with Mark Kovacs and doing his hard 75 at the end of last season, which sounds awful, by the way, but it's the... What is that? It's like a programme where for 75 days you don't eat any junk food and you work out twice a day and one of them has to be outside and you have to do 10 minutes of mindfulness reading or something. 10 minutes of reading a day. Every day, you know.

19:09Matt Roberts: And if you fail on any of them on any day, you have to go back to the start. You have to go back to zero. and you have to get to 75.

19:19David Law: Wow, I did not know.

19:21Matt Roberts: Goodness me.

19:21Catherine Whitaker: And he did that and, you know, I think that helped, you know, 75 days. It became a habit, it became a routine. It's now just now what he's doing, but he needed that kind of jump start to get into it. And, yeah, I'm so impressed with the way he has just come again this year after those tough losses at Roland Garros and Wimbledon. This has been, you know, for my money, this has been actually the closest he's felt to a US Open final, I suppose. I know he went five sets in his other semifinals, but against Alcaraz, he was so clearly hanging on in 2022. And against Fritz, we had the real fade and when nerves overtook him, it didn't feel like that today.

20:06Catherine Whitaker: It felt like he was really in the match for the whole match and playing well, but Shelton was a better player. and I think he's going to keep running into better players. There's a few of them out there, but he's in a position to potentially qualify for the ATP finals, which I wouldn't have necessarily thought before for Francis Tiafoe that that was on. He's putting together a really nice career and season, but if you ask me whether he'll win a slam, I would say no. But a big part of that is because of, you know, the people we've still got to come back to men's tennis and Alcaraz at full force and Yannick Sinner back from injury.

20:50Catherine Whitaker: I hope it's not going to look like this every year. You know, I hope Alcaraz and Sinner are at full force because I want to see it.

21:00Matt Roberts: OK, well, we'll talk more about Shelton once we've addressed who his opponent's going to be in Sunday's final. And when we come back in part two, we'll talk about Alexander Zverev and his route through to a first US Open final. But just before we get to part two, folks, a quick word from our sponsors for this US Open at Steve Fergels International Tennis Tours. Of course, the premium hospitality and experience provider. And Steve Fergels can sort you out with a dream trip to the Miami Open, which is from March the 14th to the 28th of next year. It is, of course, a combined men's and women's event at 1000 level.

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23:33David Law: Want to turn challenges into chances?

23:36Matt Roberts: Go digital enterprise and adapt to every change by combining the real and digital roles. Transform the everyday with Siemens. Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast. Let's talk Alexander Zverev, the top seed, into his first US Open final with a victory over the unseeded Russian Karen Hashanov. 6-3, 7-6, 7-6. In the words of Ava Wallace from The Athletic in her write-up of this, She said Zverev grinds down Hashanov in three mostly turgid sets.

24:16David Law: Yeah, I'd say that sums it up pretty well. I mean, you know, it was hard going, I've got to be honest. I mean, I'm mindful that I've made it very clear over the years that Alexander Zverev is not my favourite person or tennis player on the tennis circuit for well-documented reasons. but the fact is when you combine the the sort of style of play that he has the the interminable ball bouncing which is up from 14 per go 12 to 14 French Open in Wimbledon up to 22 every time he goes to hit a serve to everything really that was going on today and the lack of ups and downs really i find him a very hard watch um but i also am extremely impressed with his ability to win even when he's nowhere near at the level that he was say at wimbledon when he reached the final when i think he was he was absolutely explosive and brilliant in that tournament particularly in the last stages and he very nearly beat yannick sinner and a good sinner in the final Karen Khashanov only lost three points more than, only won three fewer points than Zverev.

25:40David Law: It was 107 to 104. It was incredibly close, and yet it was straight sets, which tells you everything. Khashanov said himself, Zverev won the important points, and that's what he does. That's what makes him such an incredible champion.

25:56Catherine Whitaker: Yes, I felt like for the first set and a little bit of this match, Zverev was clearly the better player. He was just more in control of his game. Hakchanov, I think, was trying to figure out mostly what to do with his forehand. He kept overhitting it quite a lot and Zverev actually went up a set after a really cheap service game from Hakchanov to give away the break. and then he went up a break, Zverev, and it really felt like he could potentially cruise to it. But actually, I think from that point on, I felt like actually Hachinov was the better player generally for the match and a little bit more convincing up until the big moments.

26:36Catherine Whitaker: And there were a few big moments. We had two tie breaks in the second and third sets. And, you know, Hachinov had a 5-3 lead in the second set tie break and he had a 6-4 lead in the third set tiebreak, so with two set points there to push it to a fourth. And both times, a very similar thing happened, which was that either Hachinov would get the ball that he wanted and shank a forehand and just mishit it, or Zverev would create one of those interminable rallies, 20, 30 shots, and you're waiting for Hachinov to hit the ball and come in. You know, he had so many opportunities in this match, Hachinov, to finish points at the net.

27:22Catherine Whitaker: And he was just not doing that. And Zverev was hanging back, hanging back, trading from the baseline, creating the sorts of rallies that he wants, you know. And if the second semifinal was dynamic and energetic and electric, this one was much more turgid and slow and defined by Khachanov not stepping up in those big moments and Zverev playing them the way he wanted to. and yeah it was like three hours and it felt like it came down to just a few points here and there in those two tie breaks and Zverev played them better but he didn't exactly sort of go out of his way and win them with the sort of tennis he was playing at Wimbledon it was what we've been talking about what waiting for someone to step up and beat him and no one has done it yet and And Hachinov, you can add to the pile of players here and at Roland Garros.

28:25Matt Roberts: And I do wonder with Zverev, you know, he's not stepping up and playing the more bullying, aggressive tennis that we saw from him, particularly at Wimbledon, because he hasn't needed to yet. You know, Karin Hachinov today, it's wild how allergic to the net he is. He just absolutely knew that Hashanov, he wouldn't even come to the net to pat away the easiest volley in the world. He just would not go there. He was retreating on mid-court balls that good players shouldn't be doing that. You should be more comfortable in the forecourt with easy, cheap put-aways. and so Zverev knows he can just hang back.

29:15Matt Roberts: He knows he doesn't need to take the risks.

29:18Catherine Whitaker: And he knows that Hashinov doesn't have a drop shot.

29:20Matt Roberts: Exactly. He was just so comfortable in that match-up, I think. And I know you could say 107 to 104, that doesn't look comfortable, but he knows Karen Hashinov. He knows what is likely to happen to him in the biggest points, in the biggest matches of his life, in one of the biggest matches of his life. And I do just wonder if just because we've seen Zverev play this way so far, it doesn't mean he's playing badly necessarily. He's just playing as well as he's just playing the way that he's needed to. He's very pleased with how he's playing. He wasn't at the start of the tournament. He said, I think, after the second best of five set, second five-set match he got embroiled in late at night.

30:11Matt Roberts: He was sitting around the locker room laughing with his team about how shit he was playing, said that in an on-court interview. But in his press conference after this match today, he was talking up how pleased he is with being able to play himself into form over the course of a Grand Slam. He thinks he's playing well now.

30:30Catherine Whitaker: I mean, it is a very, very trait, as you say, to just do almost the minimum amount to win. You know, like he has an uncanny ability to do that and just be a little bit better than his opponent and better in big moments. You know, like it's very like anti what Roger Federer used to do, which was, well, if I can beat you easily, I'm going to do that. I'm going to put on a show. I'm going to beat you in an hour and a half and I'm going to have made it through to the final after about eight hours court time. Zverev is responsible for some of the longest amount of time on court to reach the latter stages of tournaments.

31:11Catherine Whitaker: He's always been like that.

31:12David Law: It's the most time that anybody has taken to reach a US Open semifinal. Right. 16 hours plus.

31:19Catherine Whitaker: And that's what he does. He just is a little bit better than the opponent all throughout. And he did that in the final, Roland Garros as well. He was just a little bit better than Flavio Caballi that day. And he sort of managed Caballi's peaks and thought, OK, you're not going to be able to sustain that. If I keep myself at this level, I'm probably going to do it. And that is the task for Ben Shelton. He's got to rise to the occasion because you know that Zverev is going to be there consistently, steadily. I don't think he's going to blow Ben Shelton away. I really don't because he's not doing that to anyone.

31:58Catherine Whitaker: But the question is, can Shelton deliver in biggest moments in a way that, for example, Hakshinov just couldn't today?

32:09Matt Roberts: Should we talk about the ball bouncing?

32:10Catherine Whitaker: Oh, yeah, please.

32:11Matt Roberts: He's finally been asked about it. An opponent has finally been asked about it. He finally received a time violation for it today. It took until the latter stages of the second set. By that point, I was counting the ball bounces. Sometimes it was down at 15, 14, 15, but towards the business end of sets. And at this point, the point where he got the time violation, he was on 24 and he was still going. I mean, he says he doesn't know he's doing it And there's no rhyme or reason to when he decides to stop bouncing and to serve. He's just totally in kind of flow state. There's no conscious decision making going on there.

32:57Matt Roberts: But Karin Hashinov, in quite a polite way, because I think he's got a good relationship with Zverev, said it really is annoying and it really is off-putting.

33:09David Law: And he said it's not only me who thinks that. There were only two of us in that press conference, myself and one of the journalists who was the one who referenced the ball bouncing initially and he was he was very quick to say look it is irritating I'm not the only one who thinks that um the problem is that you think he's ready to serve and then there are another 12 ball bounces and you do your split step again and you don't know when when you're going to be returning um I said to him he said look but he's not doing anything wrong it's in the laws of the game unless he goes over the time he's not doing anything wrong and obviously and and to my knowledge and I've seen all his various matches to my knowledge that's the only time violation he's had all tournament which is a joke I said to I said to Khan Khachanov I was watching that clock throughout this match and several times it hit zero and Zverev was still bouncing the ball and he hadn't started the serve and I said would you like to see umpires be more on this and warning him more often and again the type of guy he is he said look I don't I don't like it when other players call me out or call you out to the umpire so I don't want to do that to him or to anybody else but quite clearly he was pissed off with this as a general thing and it shouldn't be up to him it was up to Damien de Mesoire in the chair and I'm afraid they're just not doing their job, these umpires and they need to be on it and I'd love to see what Shelton's going to do about this because he was coming up and complaining about things with Tiafoe's time management and he'd be well within his rights to be complaining about Zverev this sort of thing because the moment he was given that warning, the crowd erupted, didn't they?

35:02David Law: They were applauding and cheering.

35:04Matt Roberts: It was the biggest vibe of the match, the crowd reaction to that call by the umpire because it felt like validation. It was like, right, you are seeing this then. You are experiencing it. You know, it felt like the whole crowd was sort of looking at one another over the course of the match going like, this is a bit much, isn't it? but, oh, no one's saying anything about it, so I guess it's allowed. And then the umpire calling it was like, right, OK.

35:35David Law: You could have been doing something about this.

35:36Matt Roberts: Yeah, but this isn't OK. We don't necessarily have to be subjected to this torture. So, yeah, I think it could be a feature of Sunday's final, big time. I don't think Karen Hashanov, I don't think Ben Shon's going to have the same reluctance that Karen Hashanov had today.

35:57Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Ben Shelton is instructed by his team almost to make a point of it as soon as it happens and try and get on top of it early. Yeah, because it clearly is sort of effective for Zverev and helpful for him and bothering opponents. Yeah, I agree. I think we could well be talking about ball bouncing again on Sunday.

36:23David Law: It takes the steam out of a match while he's doing it. It's a bit like a footballer who gets a free kick and time wastes a bit. And again, it's very clear that he doesn't know why he's doing it. He acknowledges that he is doing it, but he doesn't know why. And I can't tell you that I think he's doing it deliberately. I don't even actually think he is trying to do that. But it's still bloody annoying. But he can be not doing it consciously or sort of intentionally as a tactic,

36:56Matt Roberts: and yet also be aware of the impact, the negative impact it has on opponents. He's not trying not to. Exactly.

37:03David Law: The one thing I would say is I'm not entirely sure it helps Ben Shelton to be trying to police this in the final rather than keeping his own mind on his own job. And that's another issue here. I mean, he shouldn't have to, of course. No, but it might be better if he just gets on top of it early.

37:25Catherine Whitaker: make the point to the umpire early rather than just let it become a thing that frustrates him because what frustrates me about it is so often the umpires wait until set point so it's almost like they're trying to do it in the biggest moment to make the biggest impact actually I think the biggest impact would be if you called it the first time it happens earlier in the set and then they're not going to do it because the punishment is quite clear if you do it again you will lose a serve and they don't want that so yes I... God, it's tedious, isn't it, talking about ball bouncing? My God.

37:58Matt Roberts: Do join us for Sunday's post-men's final pod when we'll definitely be talking about ball bouncing again.

38:03David Law: Honestly, the amount it was discussed in our Five Live BBC Radio commentary, because what can you do? It's just happening, you know, how many... He was laughing about the statistic that had come up on the screen about the thousands of ball bounces that he's done throughout this tournament. But he seemed to be the only one who was laughing in the press conference. The rest of us are just thinking, do you know what, mate? It's really dull. We all want you to stop, really. And you seem to find it all hilarious. But the rest of us and the 24 ,000 people in the crowd are just thinking, will you please get on with the bloody match?

38:42Matt Roberts: But I'll reiterate, do join us on Sunday for the pod.

38:48Catherine Whitaker: It's strange to me how there's been a regression for Zverev from Wimbledon. And I know it might just be he's not feeling the ball as well, that he's just not in as good form. Maybe he doesn't like these conditions as much. I don't know. I think he's surprised as well. Right? But, like, I think one of the things that was frustrating about the French Open is it didn't feel like Zverev had made a step in his game to suddenly become a Grand Slam champion. That big question of men's tennis, who's going to be the next guy? You wanted someone to step up, and actually what ended up happening was Zverev was obviously very consistent, and that is a skill in itself, but he was there to kind of pick up the pieces.

39:31Catherine Whitaker: It didn't feel like he'd changed the way he was playing. It's just that suddenly he wasn't having to face Sinner and he wasn't having to face Alcaraz. Then at Wimbledon, he really did play a lot better, He was a lot more interesting to watch.

39:47David Law: He was all the things that he said he wanted to be at the start of the year.

39:50Catherine Whitaker: And now we're back here again. And, yeah, it's to your point, Catherine. Maybe it's just because he hasn't needed to do it at all and maybe we'll really find out in the final. But, God, it's been a slog to sort of get this far.

40:12Matt Roberts: It's crazy that we're talking about a guy that could end the year world number one. Yeah. In the live race, he's on equal points with Yannick Sinner.

40:24David Law: And, I mean, look, he has been brilliant this year in terms of his consistency. He has threatened Sinner. He has threatened Alcaraz at the start of the year in the Australian Open. He has clearly raised his floor and he's also raised his ceiling. Not all the time, I don't think, because I don't think he somehow managed to get to the final of this tournament. And I still don't think he's playing that well. What I would say, so listen, fair play to him if he finishes world number one. We all understand the caveats, the five months out from our crowds, the injuries to Sinner, all the rest of it. But what I would say is if Ben Shelton wins this title, he is the guy who's made that step towards becoming the third guy.

41:12David Law: He may not be ranked as high as Verev, but he will have been the one to step out of the shadows and grasp this and improve himself and beat Alcaraz. Bear in mind, Verev has not beaten Alcaraz or Sinner all year. He hasn't done it once. Shelton's done it at a grand slam. in a final set tie break, that is proper. And if he goes and backs it up by winning this title, and I tell you, there's so much on his shoulders. You know, you could tell that in his interview with Chris Eubanks. He could very easily struggle with that. It could go either way. He could be inspired by it and play out of his mind.

41:54David Law: He could just be weighed down by the sheer enormity of it, what he's playing for. Chris Eubanks said, you're the first black man since 1972. Chris Eubanks said that to him. You're trying to be the first American man since Andy Roddick 23 years ago.

42:13Matt Roberts: You're playing in front of all your athlete heroes, and I'm sure even more of them will be in the house on Sunday.

42:19David Law: Absolutely. Ben Shelton didn't shy away from any of this. He said some very thoughtful words about 9-11 in the stadium today. He's kind of taken on all the roles, really, of the American flag bearer today. And I sensed that his voice was wobbling a little bit with it all. But his conclusion was, I'm going to need you all with me and I'm going to go for it. I'm going to go for this title. you said gunning for it that's what he's going to go do okay well we'll have more opportunity to

42:58Matt Roberts: preview that final that match between zverev and shelton we'll get predictions tomorrow in tomorrow's show after the women's singles final and that is what we'll look ahead to in part three and also wrap up some other results from friday here at flushing meadows AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the 14500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most.

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44:30Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of today's tennis podcast. Just before we look ahead to tomorrow, the women's singles final, some other big results from today here at the Billie Jean King National Tennis Centre. We watched the women's doubles final inside the Arthur Ashe Stadium and we watched history. Katerina Siniarkova and Taylor Townsend completing the career Grand Slam. Katerina Siniarkova completing the career Grand Slam for their second time with a second different partner. She is the first player, man or woman, to do that. So poor old Taylor Townsend completing the career Grand Slam. Incredible achievement, totally eclipsed by Sini Arcova, her partner, who's casually doing it for the second time.

45:19Matt Roberts: They beat Robin Montgomery and Aisling Kruger, the wildcard pair, who won the junior title together in 2021. So a lovely story of them getting to the senior final this year. 5-7, 6-love, 6-2. Got off to a very slow start here, Sini Arcova-Townsend. but actually once they found their footing in this match, it was quite one-sided.

45:45Catherine Whitaker: Yes, it was. They were 4-1 down in that first set. Siniyark of a Townsend obviously ended up losing that first set, but they did make it competitive. And from that point on, they won 16 in the last 21 games, you know, so really dominant. There was a period where it was tight right at the start of the third set and they came out on top of that period. And then there was the final game where Sini Arcovo was trying to serve it out and was having a horrible time trying to do it. You know, like so many wayward ball tosses, missed serves. She was laughing at herself, wasn't she? It was great. You know, they had the double break cushion and Townsend was seeing to things at the net and making sure that they weren't broken back.

46:34Catherine Whitaker: and they really do combine well. And yeah, that stat for Siniarkova to have won two career slams with two different partners is crazy. You know, especially when you think how different Kraychikova and Townsend are, not only in, you know, personality-wise, but also, you know, one's a righty, one's a lefty. And she's made that work. She's so adaptable. Some of the things that cost her a little bit in the singles, I think, hold her back, like the serve, I think, for example. She more than makes up for with her skills in doubles. There were so many times today when Kruger and Montgomery were trying to put the ball away at the net and they would volley it at Sini Arcova and Sini Arcova would have the hand skills to pick it back up.

47:19Catherine Whitaker: And they combine as a pair so well. And, yeah, it was an interesting vibe in the stadium coming up against two Americans. But I did also sense that there was a lot of support for Townsend and Sini Arcova. Townsend is the bigger name. She's a big story here. It was special to see a team complete the career slam. That's a very important moment in anyone's career if they get to do it.

47:46Matt Roberts: Yeah, they had matching bows in their hair, which I did enjoy. You should have matching outfits. Obviously, that should be a rule in doubles, but in the absence of that, in fact, totally clashing outfits is what they had, but I did like their matching bows, and it was a really cool moment. I felt for Montgomery and Kruger that they really were gutted, weren't they?

48:07Catherine Whitaker: They were, and I think Montgomery especially. I think she felt like she didn't quite bring it to them.

48:12Matt Roberts: Yeah, it was tough, but they're young. Hopefully they'll be back. Other results from today, we had the Wheelchair Doubles Finals. Top seeds Alfie Hewitt and Gordon Reid won the Men's Wheelchair Doubles Final. They beat Martin de la Puente and Ruben Sparger in the second seeds. It's a great match, this. 2-6, 6-3, 10-7. They had beaten yesterday Tiquito Oda and Gustav Fernandez in the semifinals. And Oda, tomorrow, is going for the calendar slam in the singles final against Alfie Hewitt. The calendar slam at the age of 20.

48:52David Law: Amazing. Yeah. It's so interesting. I mean, I saw Takito Oda had beaten Gordon Reid for the loss of a single game in the singles. You know, that's what tends to happen when those two face off these days. But then when they play in the doubles, it's usually Hewitt and Reid who get the better of them.

49:13Matt Roberts: Yeah, just incredible chemistry and understanding between those two as a partnership. And obviously Oda's already got the career slam, but going for the calendar slam, he's going to run out of sort of... And the gold medal? Things to achieve. I mean, obviously just, you know, clocking up ridiculous records and using it as a platform to promote the sport and to promote disability sport as well. You know, that's obviously a huge goal for him, but an absolutely extraordinary feat he's going for tomorrow in that singles final. The quad wheelchair doubles final was played today, won by the second seed, Sam Schroeder and Jin Woodman.

49:57Matt Roberts: They beat Guy Sassen and Niels Vink 6-3, 2-6, 10-7 in the final. And we also had the women's wheelchair doubles final, Yui Kimiji and Zhu Zhenzhen, the top seeds, beating the unseeded Chinese-Japanese pairing of Zhu Luoyao and Momoko Otani 6-1, 6-2. So a convincing win for Yui Kimiji and Zhu Zhenzhen. and Kimmigi will play Dider de Rout in the singles final tomorrow. Can't wait. You will be watching that. That match will be first up on court 13 at 11am tomorrow. The junior boys final is first up on court 12. That is between an unceded American, Marcel Latak, and the French Open junior boys champion, Guto Miguel, who I saw a bit of at Wimbledon.

51:00Matt Roberts: He was a hitting partner on the practice courts at Wimbledon and I very much enjoyed watching him. He was ill, you say?

51:07Catherine Whitaker: No, he's from Brazil.

51:09Matt Roberts: Oh.

51:12Good.

51:13Catherine Whitaker: Catherine and I are sat quite far away from each other.

51:19David Law: I'm in between.

51:22Matt Roberts: The girls' singles final is between the Russian Anna Pushkareva, who's a name I feel like I've heard quite a lot of, and Sun Jinran. So that is the top seed against the fifth seed in the junior girls' final tomorrow. That is first up at 11am on court seven. The quad singles final, first up on court ten. The top two seeds, Niels Vink against Sam Schroeder. The men's wheelchair singles final to Kito Oda going for that calendar slam against Alfie Hewitt. That is first up on court 11 at 11 a.m. And then on the Arthur Ashe Stadium tomorrow, it starts off with the men's doubles final. The German pairing of Kevin Kravitz and Tim Puetz up against the American Brit pairing of Christian Harrison and Niels Skubsky.

52:15Matt Roberts: That's at midday. And then not before 4pm, the women's singles final. The top seed against the second seed. The current world number one against the world number one elect. Irina Sabalenka against Elena Rabakina. David, what's going to happen? Who's going to win?

52:35David Law: Oh, I have gone back and forth a bit on this one when I've been thinking about it. Because I think it's so easy to make a compelling case for each player. they have a very sort of even head to head they've both won big matches against one another this year the Australian Open for Rybakina and then the Sunshine Double successes for Sabalenka I was so convinced by Sabalenka's form from yesterday that that is what turns my head the most there's no guarantee that she's able to provide that again And her coaching team actually came into a press conference today. And they're quite amusing talking about Sabalenka.

53:19David Law: They really do slightly laugh at her expense and say, you know, this is what she's like on and off the court. You've got to kind of go with it and just kind of keep her able to laugh and not take it all too seriously. But she's just found it. She's found it in the nick of time because she'd lost her form. She'd lost her composure. something had gone from her game for a number of months and that performance yesterday, I think Jim Currier said it was the best performance of the year for her. Not just the sunshine double, this was as good as she's played. So with her record here, having won the title here the last two years, I think she will find the answers.

54:07Matt?

54:09Catherine Whitaker: I'm leaning Sabalenka as well. You know, it's so interesting to me to think about the possible opponents that Sabalenka could have had in this final. And, you know, it was very nearly Coco Gauff. And I think when Sabalenka plays Coco Gauff, she knows she's in for a stressful time. Like, that match she feels is on her racket, but it often leads to a lot of unforced errors of ragged display. However, when she plays for Bakkina, it's interesting to me because I think some, for one, some of the control is actually taken away from Sabalenka and I actually think that's quite helpful for her to stay calm and play well.

54:57Catherine Whitaker: And I think about their Australian Open finals, they've been, to my mind, they've been incredibly high quality and she's won one and she's lost one but I do think she probably should have won the one this year you know, Rebecca had that amazing returning game in the opening set, won that set but then Sabalenka was kind of the better player for the rest of the set she was the better player in the second set she was the better player at the start of the third and she put herself in a winning position and I just think if she's in a winning position this time Sabalenka with the form she's shown in the last two matches and how desperate she is to win this one.

55:35Catherine Whitaker: Obviously, it could go the other way, but I'm banking on it going the right way for her and for her to just not let this one go. And, yeah, I'm going to go Sabalenka probably in three sets, just getting over the line.

55:53Matt Roberts: Well, you two have put me in a very awkward position because after our absolute catastrophe of predictions ahead of the women's semifinals where we all did a clean sweep of wrong predictions. You want to save some credibility for us? Yeah, well, we can't put it all on black.

56:13Catherine Whitaker: That's fair.

56:13Matt Roberts: Again. But I do think Sabalen can have.

56:18David Law: It's your fault then.

56:20Matt Roberts: I just... I mean, mostly... All the back and forth I do in my head... And there's a lot. There's a very strong case for Rabakina. There's a very strong case for, you know, final Sabalenka, Scrambleenka showing up. The most compelling thing that keeps coming back is the performance I saw last night, which was just some of the best tennis I've seen all year. So I'm going to go with that. But here we are again, folks.

56:50Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, and look, I suppose if I'm trying to come up with a counter to that and a case for Rabakina, Like, can Sabalenka do all those things that she was able to do against Pagoula, against Rabatkaner? You know, Pagoula said something in the press conference, which was like, she finds it hard against Sabalenka here at the US Open. That's three losses now, even though a couple of them have been very close matches. Because she said, once she locks onto my ball, she's comfortable. And I think that Rabatkaner just has a slightly greater way to shop than Pagoula. a bit more dangerous off both wings, she's looking to hurt you more than Pagula probably is, that maybe that can unsettle Sabalenka.

57:35Catherine Whitaker: I'd be surprised if Sabalenka's able to handle Rabatkinner kind of as comfortably as she did Pagula down the stretch there.

57:44Matt Roberts: OK, you've covered us.

57:45Catherine Whitaker: OK. I'll say no more.

57:48Matt Roberts: That was a good insurance policy against utter humiliation.

57:52David Law: All they will remember is the three people who said Zabalenka.

57:56Matt Roberts: We'll see you back here tomorrow night, folks, for the reckoning after the women's singles final. We'll be back. Still two more of these daily US Open podcasts. Then we have a review show coming next week for Friends of the Pod. There is still so much to come from this US Open. We say hello to our mascots, Bodhi, Maisie and Roger. we say hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Geoff, and a particular hello tonight to Chris, with whom Matt and I spent a lovely few hours this afternoon.

58:30Catherine Whitaker: We did, talking all things tennis, and, yeah, Chris looked after us very well, and we had a lovely, lovely day with him. What a nice man.

58:39Matt Roberts: We did. What an absolutely joyful, lovely man Chris is. So, yeah, thank you, top folk, Chris. And we leave you today with a message from our US Open mascot, Leo, who is pictured here in a New York City fire department dog coat. And Cara, Leo's owner, says the following. Today, Leo is holding his tennis balls in quiet reflection to honour the memory of those who lost their lives on September the 11th, 2001. The heroic men and women who rushed to help and the loyal rescue dogs who worked alongside them in the days that followed. 25 years later, Leo chooses to remember this day not only as one of profound loss, but of countless acts of courage, compassion, sacrifice and love.

59:26Matt Roberts: Today, in particular, Leo is especially grateful for the simple gifts of freedom, community, sports and play and for the opportunity to gather in peace with friends from across the world to enjoy a sport that we all love. Well said, Cara. Well said, Leo. Thank you for listening. We'll speak to you tomorrow.

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