US Open Day 9 - Comeback Queen

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0:26Matt Roberts: AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com. Hi, from Kansas City, Missouri, Dizzy Zalatsan, and Josh Boehm, and you're listening to The Dennis Podcast.

1:17Matt Roberts: Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast coming to you from New York on day nine of the US Open and we have just been introduced beautifully there by Josh and his husband Aladson who by total chance we all met just yesterday out in Fountain Plaza at the Billie Jean King National Tennis Centre. Josh is a long-time listener and friend, but he's now managed to convert Aladson. We like that. And Aladson was enjoying his first ever Grand Slam trip when we saw them yesterday. So we hope it was a good one. And we thank you both for introducing today's show. It is just after midnight as the three of us come to you.

1:58Matt Roberts: Tonight, the day's play is done. Alexander Zverev was the last to finish, as has become tradition at this US Open. And we'll talk about him and the other men's matches in part two. But let's start with the women tonight and the player who is fast becoming one of the stories of this tournament, if not the story of the tournament, the current world number 121, but former world number four, Zheng Chin-Wen, who came from five love down, you might remember, in the deciding set of her last match to beat Madison Keyes. Matt, tell us what she did today against Igor Sviontek. She came from five love down in the first set to win the set, 7-5, and then ultimately the match in straight set, 7-5, 6-3, meaning she won back-to-back sets in this tournament from five love down.

2:57crazy absolutely crazy I was riding the subway in this morning and excited for this match then I just had a sudden thought of I think this match might be quite one-sided for Igor Svantec I don't know why I thought that I guess I guess part of me thought maybe Jung might hit some kind of wall or reach some kind of limit just maybe not physically but just in terms of what she'd been doing here with the comeback and Igor Shvontek's been pretty good for a few weeks now. I thought maybe this would be one where she stepped up and after 20 minutes of this match I thought I've nailed this one because Igor Shvontek was 5-0 up in 20 minutes on the Arthrash Stadium and

3:50Catherine Whitaker: quite frankly Jung was really poor in those first five games. She wasn't really getting to the ball. She was overhitting when she was getting there. She looked rushed. It was pretty comfortable for Igor Svantec. And Svantec had built that five-love lead without having to do too much. She was good. But there was low intensity to the match. And I think that caught Svantec out a little bit because gradually, bit by bit, Jung started mounting this comeback. and all the WhatsApp chats were going with, oh, you know, Jung's got her just where she wants her. Ha ha ha. You know, no one actually thought she was going to mount this comeback again, apart from, I think, Jung, who seemed to have just the perfect amount of belief.

4:37She got one break back. She got two breaks back. She saved a set point. And she just found her game in those games and started hitting with such force that Svantec struggled to handle.

4:53Catherine Whitaker: She's one of these players, Zheung, who has such heavy shots and they were pushing Svantec back and it was more than she could handle. And she took over and, look, it wasn't quite as dramatic, I think, as against Keyes, where Keyes' game totally fell off. Svantec's game fell off enough for Zheung to get in. She didn't have a good serving day to be able to just run through a game that she needed to win the set or anything like that. And Jung mounted the comeback and then managed to get it done in the second set. But it was the first set that was so memorable.

5:33Matt Roberts: Yeah, she won 13 of the last 16 games from five love down in the first set. And I know that sounds like a disaster for Iguerite Fionte. But as you say, Matt, it wasn't like that. It wasn't a tightening the way we saw Madison Keys the other day where, you know, she was so visibly struggling with the nerves and the situation of feeling this lead slip away. I mean, Niga Shontek did drop off, but this was mostly about her being totally overwhelmed by Jung Chin Wen, who has a ceiling as high as pretty much anybody on tour. She does have the sort of technique that makes you hold your breath a bit. It's not one of those game styles where you think, well, there's not much that can go wrong.

6:15Matt Roberts: Like there is lots that looks like it can go wrong and we've seen that. But when it's going right, it's not like anybody else on tour.

6:27David Law: No. And being courtside for the match against Putin's saver, side on, you can see what can go wrong because I arrived at the start of the second set of that match and she's taking her big long swings, most of them are going and hitting the back fence. She might hit a couple that go in and then the third one, she just gets the trajectory wrong and it has no chance of going in because she's hitting it so hard. And here we were, I mean, that's a 6-1 set I've seen her lose and then I've seen her down 5-0 twice where she just can't control the ball. And her opponents are a factor in that as well, certainly in the case of Keyes and Svantec who I thought started today really, really well.

7:10David Law: And she's trying to flight the ball more. And she was doing that later on as she was trying to get back into the match. But the sheer weight of the shot of Zheng Xinwen added to the sort of weight of her personality and her presence on the court, the way she strides around, making you believe she's about to go win. She just gives you, when she gets on a roll, you kind of think, oh, okay, well, this isn't going to be possible to stop. And actually the only player that I've been able to see resist that completely is Sabalenka over the years. You know, I don't know whether she's ever had the chance to really hit that sort of form.

7:48David Law: But we've seen her do it against Svantec in that Olympic match, even though the head-to-head was wildly in Svantec's favour. But there is something in the air at the moment about Chung Xinwen. The fact that you come through qualifying the way she has. The fact that she's had such a horrible time with the injuries, ranked way down and has now gone on a roll. This is just what she's been waiting for. She's had to withstand a lot, a lot of disappointment, a lot of heartache, a lot of pain. And now she's on a roll and she remembers what a roll feels like and it ended with her having the gold medal around her neck.

8:28David Law: So I don't think she's putting any limits on herself right now. Did you notice that her nails are painted gold? Are they? Nice. I like that. I don't know if that's a new thing. I don't know whether it's a longstanding thing, but I did clock it in the press conference today. I'm still reeling from the five love thing. Like we don't... Never heard of that before. Two and a half.

8:54Matt Roberts: It's pretty impossible to confirm that stat, whether anybody's done that in back-to-back sets, let alone at a slam, let alone against two Grand Slam champion opponents. But I would be shocked if that's happened. I mean, it was astonishing to see it the first time. To see it in back-to-back matches is, I mean, so far from anything I've ever seen before, it's jaw-dropping. Yeah, yeah. And it must make you feel bulletproof. Yeah. Totally bulletproof. Yeah, can't lose. For five levels as bad as it gets in a set. It can't get worse than that without you losing it. And she's managed to win it twice.

9:38David Law: What must it do to opponents? Right. Totally. It was staggering. And actually, the second set was very impressive as well because unlike some of her losses at slams this year,

9:54Catherine Whitaker: Fiont didn't immediately go away, having lost a tight first set. she wasn't at her best but she was trying to figure things out she had some treatment on her thigh she had a medical time at Dijon Tech but she was hanging in there and she had some she had some break points at 3-2 couldn't take them and then at that moment when she hadn't taken the break points that's where Jung seemed to pounce and grow again in the match and take over it again from there but you know against Keys she'd had this dramatic comeback but that had been the end of the match you know now she had this dramatic comeback but she also had another set still to win and I was very impressed by the way she she managed to keep grounded because you must just feel like a million dollars after coming back from Five Love Down but you've still got to win the match it must feel like the top of the mountain and yet you're halfway there Yeah, so that was really impressive.

10:58Yeah, I totally agree. This is a woman that lost in straight sets in round one qualifying in Toronto just a month ago to Lanlana Tarudi of Thailand. Good player, but, you know, not someone who's ever been in any of the conversations that Jung Chin Wen has been in over the last few years.

11:22Matt Roberts: And that defeat prompted a crisis meeting, by the sounds of things, with her coaching team led by Perra Reba, who she's been with for a long time. And I think they have a really healthy, good dynamic together. And it sounds like he gave her some home truths and she has such trust in him that she went, fine. Yeah, I'll do exactly what you suggest. and off they went to Bradenton, changed their plans. She was going to play Cincinnati qualifying and sort of keep on the hamster wheel, just keep trying to get something going. And he said, no, we're going to go and do what she described as the most brutal training block she's ever done.

12:09David Law: Wow. And doing it, as she sort of said, quietly, being cut off. Because, I mean, I've been to Bradenton. There isn't much to do other than play tennis, maybe go to the beach. but you know it's that's what it's about and good on her you know it'd be so easy to be a bit over that you know a bit above that given what she's achieved in her career and given what she's sort of earned in her life and she'll never need to work again financially all these things but there's a sort of there's a humility about her and there's a hard nosed drive and ambition about her. You know, she's vulnerable and yet she's fiercely driven.

12:52David Law: And I love the combination. Yeah, me too. I think it's pretty unique, actually. Certainly the way she's able to express it.

13:01Matt Roberts: There's so much heart to her.

13:03David Law: You love her press conferences, don't you?

13:05Matt Roberts: Yeah, she holds the... I mean, everybody leaves her press conferences going, wow. You know, I've been in the last three with Ava Wallace from The Athletic and we've shuffled out of all three of them together just going, my God, what a gift to have her back in the way she tells you. It tells you anything you ask her. Totally, completely open.

13:30David Law: And you might not think that when you see her on the tennis courts. Because she's so sort of regal about the way she carries herself, I end up being quite... She should be intimidating.

13:40Matt Roberts: And yet I find her in the press conference room one of the least intimidating players. I feel sort of the least nervous asking her a question. I feel very relaxed.

13:50David Law: I don't think I have asked her a question. And I get the sense that I would go in slightly with trepidation about it. And then she disarms you because she's so easy to talk to. I remember the first time I'd seen her on the tennis court before live. live but I remember the first time I saw her in close quarters I think I've mentioned this on the pod before but it was at the United Cup two and a half years ago now um in the breakfast room of the hotel famously the best breakfast I've ever had your favorite place in the world I sleep through hotel breakfast because sleep is more important to me than breakfast but the exception is for the Ritz Carlton in Perth.

14:33Weren't you in a different place last year? Yeah, it was a big disappointment. That was a real disappointment. Yeah, it's all coming back to me.

14:39David Law: That got raised a lot in the WhatsApp. Just the best.

14:43Matt Roberts: I mean, oh, the eggs. Anyway, so I went down to breakfast every morning and all the teams, you know, everybody else was going down to breakfast every morning as well. It was unmissable. It was the talk of the town, the breakfast.

14:56David Law: They're not paying us, folks. These people.

15:00Matt Roberts: and all the teams would sit together and it was fascinating observing all the team dynamics because you don't get to see tennis players in those sorts of environments very often. You know, Katie Bolton was sat with Team Australia because of Alex de Menor. I was like, oh, I wonder what GB think about that. Anyway, I saw, I think it was fine. I saw Jung Chin Wen walked past me and I did a double take. She is such an imposing, intimidating statue of a human being. It's quite something. She's got those, I know she's tall, but it's sort of the coat hanger shoulders and the presence and the poise of her, the way she carries herself, like she's born to be something, you know?

15:50Matt Roberts: And I think that's what riled people when she came on tour and what made other players misread her and misunderstand her and what I think was quite an uncomfortable, somewhat cruel way, certainly in a way that made me uncomfortable at the time.

16:10David Law: It's a shame, wasn't it, that that happened? It was a shame.

16:12Matt Roberts: She was so young and it was real like, well, who do you think you are carrying yourself like that? And, yeah, it made me uncomfortable and so she's got this totally imposing presence but also this softness and vulnerability about her. It's a really unique combination. I think she's very special and I think this is the most extraordinary story. Do you know what else she is? Pumped. I love the way she said that. You might have to get the T-shirts reprinted.

16:54David Law: Well, yeah. I'm wearing the T-shirt today. You are. To the tournament.

16:59Matt Roberts: Pumped is David's signature, well, state of being. And his signature saying, would you say?

17:10David Law: It's my slogan on the back of my shirt.

17:14Matt Roberts: You can buy the David T-shirt in the TTP merch shop and it says pumped in unsubtle lettering. across the back. And it's wonderful, but Pumped might be even better.

17:29David Law: Yeah, because that's what Zhong Chin-Wed said in her press, in her encore interview that she felt. Yeah. And I loved it. And I also just love the way someone pointed this out on the bulge. I love the way she, like the mic's there on its stand and yet she's still holding it like she's about to do karaoke. I know. I thought, is she gonna? Is she? She has famously sung on court before, hasn't she? Has she? Yeah. What she sang? I can't remember what she sang, but it was after winning a tournament? It was in China, I believe, yeah. Oh, wow, that's cool. It sort of became her thing. Marta Kostrick does a backflip, Jung Chin Wen sings karaoke.

18:13Will we be seeing it on Saturday? Can she?

18:16Catherine Whitaker: Who's she got? Well, I do think Elena Rebecca can say hi. That is it she plays in the next round. Elena Rabakina. She was bloody good. Who beat Naomi Osaka today 6-1, 6-4, and is now one win, one Jung Chin Wen win away, not only from the US Open semifinals, but from confirming herself as the world number one. She was bloody good today. Rabakina, wasn't she?

18:45David Law: Yeah, impervious, really. Impenetrable. I don't think Naomi Osaka had a good day by any means. I think she was 100%, but I'm not sure that would have mattered anyway. I think Elena Rebecca, who came in with these fitness concerns, well, okay, I've said a couple of times I'm not going to think about that again, but I still end up thinking that somebody will expose that, won't they? And then you see her play like today, and she was just awesome. She looked like the best player in the draw today. She looked like the world number one.

19:19Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, this was a clinic from Rebecca, you know, 6 '1", 6 '4", over Osaka. And Osaka just had no answer. You know, it was one of those where Rebecca, at her best, makes the sport look so damn easy. It's like everything in her body is calibrated to be able to just fire the perfect tennis shot. You know, like her long leavers, everything was flowing, perfect timing, crushing the ball, but not looking like she is and serving brilliantly. It was just an unbelievably good performance, like so, so satisfying to watch someone play tennis that well. Like, as David said, Asaka was struggling with her calf, Achilles.

20:18Catherine Whitaker: I'm not exactly sure, but she had it looked at late against Mertens in the round before. And she came on with the strapping today. And there was a couple of games where Asaka gave up her serve with double faults and clusters. It seemed like she was struggling maybe to push off a little bit. and I think she was struggling to move in the way that she has improved her movement and she was just standing on the baseline and trying to hog the baseline but all it did was meant that Rabatkin was taking her time away and she looked so rushed out there and there was never a moment where I didn't think Rabatkin was going to win once the match got underway and started she was just so in control and it was, yeah, it wasn't much of a contest I was excited for this because we'd seen it the other week and it had been really gripping.

21:11Catherine Whitaker: I thought it could be a great match. There's a packed house in Armstrong. I think a lot of people had Ash tickets and moved over to Armstrong because they wanted to see that one. And it was disappointing as a contest, but as just a tennis performance, it was a joy from Rebecca. Yeah, it was one of those where I watched it and I was like, gosh I mean never have my takes aged so quickly and so badly as my entire week of Rabatkinner takes from well up until today or maybe a couple of days ago. Understandable though I think.

21:50Matt Roberts: Watching her I was like well yeah she looks like the best player in the world and she's probably about to become officially the best player in the world of course she looks like it how why

21:59David Law: didn't you think well she didn't look like it two weeks ago no and and i was slight i felt slightly validated by her press conference afterwards where she did confirm that like she's really surprised that she's playing like this and she's as pain-free as she is she said she didn't play for a full week you know gave lots of credit to her medical team she's got a doctor permanently on call they were taking it bit by bit she didn't expect she didn't expect the injury to have recovered like this. And I think now I'm going to be going into her matches

22:34Catherine Whitaker: expecting her to be fine, but we should say she does still have the strapping on and that was the situation she was in in Cincinnati before it happened. She played a match with the strapping and she plays the match against Fiontech and it goes. So it's possible, I suppose, that something like that could happen again, like could derail her in that way but it doesn't feel like she's coming onto court now protecting it you know uh she's she's coming out playing normally looking fine so i really really really hope it doesn't just go because that will just be horrible but that's somewhere in the back of my mind that that might happen because because we saw it in cincinnati and she's still got the strapping on but the tennis is right where she needs it to be the biggest question for me with that matches the stress of the world number one thing.

23:29I think the world number one thing is really big for Rebecca. I mean, of course, reaching world number one is big, but she's not doing the Sabalenka thing of like, oh, it's not on my mind. I'm not thinking about it. She's thinking about it. She wants it. She knows this is her chance. I think that is going to be a feature of the next match. I think stress will come into it. I do.

23:56David Law: Yeah, it'd be fascinating because I suppose the only comparable stresses that I've seen for her have been Grandstand Finals. And she's been in a couple of those. I think she's handled them well. And I actually back her to be able to withstand it. I don't think it's nothing. She said, you know, she said on the court, of course, anybody would want to be world number one. It's a big deal. I back her to be able to handle the occasion and compartmentalise. I think she's good at that. I think it's whether Jung Chin-Wen can get to her and, well, maybe whether Rebecca does have a bad day, maybe because of stress, and the fact that they've had close matches.

24:40David Law: You know, their last three have gone three sets and one of them, Jung Chin-Wen, has won. So, you know, it's an interesting head-to-head.

24:49Catherine Whitaker: And they've played twice this season, haven't they? and I remember those matches being the ones where I saw Zhang and thought, oh, okay, there's something here. She can mount a comeback. There's a seed there that can grow. And it just didn't really happen. I think one of them was in the Middle East and one was Madrid. And they were kind of false dawns. I thought, oh, Zhang's going to be back soon. And it's taken until now for us to see it. So there's definitely enough, I think, in the matchup for Jung to know that she can play Rebecca in a close. I think the thing that comes to mind for me when I think about Rebecca and stress is that she can, I think, handle it better than a lot of players because of her serve.

25:39Catherine Whitaker: You know, you see Svantec today. She just doesn't have a release with the serve. It's a pressure valve, isn't it? If she can just get that going, which has been firing, that will help her, I think, settle. But the flip side of that is we do see sometimes the forehand go. It looked so secure today. You think, how does that shot ever break down? But it does. So, yeah, it's a tantalising matchup with the stories.

26:09David Law: Could be for some spectacular rallies as well. I think they will like each other's ball. Yes, I know what you mean. Pretty, piercing and flat. It's quite a similar ball strike on both sides of the net. I think it could look incredible if they're both on. Just on Osaka quickly before we move on, I went to a post-match press conference and didn't really know what to expect. And, you know, we have seen her be disconsolate after losses. And I do, you know, I always worry about that scenario. This was not that. This was the opposite end of the spectrum to that. She was totally fine. She was like, she said, I'm not disappointed.

26:51I'm not sad. And I think maybe part of that was the injury. You know, she felt like there was no world in which she was going to win today. Injury and just how good her opponent was. And look, I was really relieved that she, how okay she was. But it also, I was also struck by, and I've felt this before, how rarely she seems to find a middle ground in defeats, particularly Grand Slam defeats, between either total devastation or, well, I'm fine, I don't really care. Obviously, I would rather for her mental health it be how we found her today. But I do think there is like a healthy level of caring and sadness that you're able to process to process and channel positively.

27:45Matt Roberts: And it strikes me that she's kind of, seems like somebody that can only do the extremes.

27:52David Law: Maybe it's self-protection in a way. Just out of interest, how did that compare to Svantec? Because you went into that one as well. No, Matt went to Svantec.

28:02Catherine Whitaker: Yes, I went to Svantec and look, she was sad, clearly. I think the TV cameras showed her leaving the court in tears and there was corridor scenes as she left the Arthur Ashe Stadium and she was very, very upset with the way that match had got away from her. By the time she got to the press conference, she was sort of in control, but she was quite subdued, I would say, but very happy to analyse and was doing so. There was one moment where she got a little bit frustrated with the line of questioning about the five love and she said, you think that's crazy? I think you can lose a set from any score.

28:49Catherine Whitaker: There's nothing that special about it. And I did think that that seemed a little bit of self-protection probably in the aftermath of that because the thing is, as magnificent as Jung Chin Wen was, there's just no way that Igor Svantec of, well pick a year really 2022 2023 2024 loses that set you know she was she was the best front runner the sport had seen in many years and she just would have won that set and as young started coming back today you felt it was possible for her to win it because of the fact that it's eager to untake in 2026 now down the other end of the court and And yeah, we're now facing a Grand Slam season for the first time since 2021 where Yiga Sviantec hasn't won a slam.

29:42Catherine Whitaker: She's very possibly not going to qualify for the WTA finals unless she goes on a remarkable run at the end of the season. We're just in a different place now with Yiga Sviantec. And I personally find that quite sad because she's been so dominant at times and it's just sad that she's not there right now. But then I suppose does one loss like this undo a month of good work that we've seen her put in? And I would suggest probably not. And hopefully she's on some kind of path back to where she was. but there's no doubt that this was a tough one and she was feeling it. And she said it, every US Open since she won it here in 2022, it always feels like she comes out of it feeling pretty disappointed by the way it's gone, you know, whether it be the loss to Ostopenko or the very quick loss to Pagula a few years ago.

30:46Catherine Whitaker: Like, it's felt like she's had this tournament there for a few times and suddenly it's all just gone a bit dramatically wrong and there's been a real sort of end of season vibe almost to it, even though there's still a couple of months of the season to go. So, yeah, tough times for Sri Yante. So Rabakna against Jung, can't wait for that one. The other quarterfinal that was set up today is Coco Gough against Mira Andreeva Gough, beating Eva Jovic. Fellow American 6-1, 6-4, described it as the first time she'd been out of breath on court in a long time.

31:21David Law: Yeah, the one rally was just epic, really. And it is quite something to see her puffing a bit at the end of a rally. Credit to Jovic for managing to make that happen. And crikey, it took till halfway through the second set for it to get anywhere at all, really, didn't it? Because Goff was in total command. Yeah, I mean, I thought Jovic played pretty well tonight. and that tells you, I think, how good a Goff performance that was. And she was pleased with it, wasn't she?

31:52Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I mean, Jovic broke in the opening game, but then it was six straight for Goff in the first set. And as David said, it was really the early stage of the second set and the middle portion of that where Jovic was really in it. And she was. but Jovic was having to play absolute top level just to hang with Goff really I felt and once Goff weathered that and you know she was very impressive in the closing stages and yeah there were some amazing rallies in this one it wasn't the sustained brilliance of Jovic Jiala from the other night But I just think Jovic couldn't quite sustain the level that she needed to to live with Goff.

32:46Very different route through to the quarterfinal for Mira Andreeva. Quite a dramatic three set of her against Anastasia Potopova. 5-7, 6-4, 6-3, but ending on a very tough scene out on Armstrong.

33:01Catherine Whitaker: Yes, in the final game of the match, Potopova appeared to hyperextend her knee and immediately went down and there was real concern and Andreeva went over to her and she had some treatment, Potopova, and could finish the match but couldn't move, which was a real shame because it felt like maybe there was a bit of drama left in this one because it had been such a dramatic match to that point. Potapova had won the first set. Just, I felt, getting the right side of her aggressive tennis, putting the trigger at the right time. But Andreeva, it's rare that Andreeva's the calmest person on the court, but she was in this one.

33:50Catherine Whitaker: And Potapova was getting quite het up by the situations and Andreeva was just sticking in it enough and just drawing enough errors to mount the comeback. And with the next two sets, 6-4, 6-3, it was quite a scrappy match. It was neither of them playing their best tennis, but a nice win for Andreva, who came into this tournament without too much form to speak of since the French Open, of course, and has worked her way in really nicely and now gets another shot at golf. and that's always been a hard match for her. You said she spoke to her psychologist, her sports psychologist, midway through the US hard court swing did Andreva because she was struggling with the stress of being a Grand Slam champion and how that changed things mentally for her.

34:41She said she was taken to the court just feeling stressed that she wasn't before that French Open and the psychologist talked her into approaching that French Open win is just another trophy. You've won titles before. It is just a title. Just think of it as another tournament win. I know that sounds, you know, sort of easier said than done, but it seems it worked.

35:06David Law: Yeah, and I do like the fact that she's been open about that and has told us, and I think doing that probably helps, you know, just that kind of speaking this concern of yours into the world like that. perhaps helps with it and she's she did have her hands full today i mean we were watching that one here catherine while matt was over there and and just she just seemed as though she wasn't quite on it you know and you've you've and and potapova has shown this year how dangerous she can be in like flurries sometimes she can be awful and yet she's had a couple of spells where she's been pretty extraordinarily good.

35:50David Law: And I thought this was another one. And credit to Andrava for hanging in there and kind of figuring it out to turn it around. Yeah, impressive composure. And she'll need that against Coco Gough because this is a tough head-to-head for her against Gough. It's 5-0. And some of those matches have been very competitive, but it is still 5-0 for Gough. Yes. I remember a few of their matches and... Four of those have been on clay. One was at the US Open, but three years ago, which was very early in Mirand Draver's career.

36:32Catherine Whitaker: Yes, and I think they met, I think, the same year at the French Open. That was the match where Andraver won the first set. And it was, you know, I think Goff said afterwards, well, I lost the first set, but...

36:46David Law: That's when I won the match.

36:47Catherine Whitaker: That's when I won the match.

36:48David Law: Because it was like a tie-break set and she exhausted Andreeva. Yeah, totally.

36:52Catherine Whitaker: And I think that's harder for her to do now with Andreeva being, you know, three years on and more developed as a player. But, you know, it's one of those matches where they both prefer their backhands to their forehand. So they're kind of always trying to manoeuvre the points to get their backhand into play, which is always an interesting match to watch. I think there's something about, you know, Andreeva being younger than Goff. Goff's got a very good record against players who are younger than her. And I think... Including today against Jovic. Right. I think Goff still, in a way, kind of feels like she's the young up-and-comer on tour and the one of her generation.

37:38Catherine Whitaker: And I think she really steps it up and raises her game when threatened by these other incredibly young, talented players. I think she's aware of that dynamic when they play. Yeah, I can't wait for it. I do think Goff's not only got the head-to-head, but I think she's also in better form than Andreva. And with the crowd, I think that's a tough occasion for Andreva. But if she can focus and block all of that out and just play her game, We know how talented she is and how dangerous she would be. Can't wait for those two quarterfinals. We're in very good shape with the women's draw. We're going to talk about the men's draw and the matches that we've seen today and the ones that have been set up in part two.

38:24Matt Roberts: But just before we head into part two, folks, we want to share a word and a special offer from our sponsors at Steve Fergal's International Tennis Tours, the premium hospitality and experience provider. Now, if the Miami Open is on your tennis bucket list, then Steve Fergals can sort you out with the trip of your dreams in March 2027. If it's not on your bucket list, then it should be. It is one of the biggest combined men's and women's events outside of the slams. It's got a really cool vibe about the venue and the city is super fun and vibrant. It's really got a bit of everything. And if that takes your fancy, then you should definitely check out the packages that Steve Fergels have to offer, especially if you want a faff-free experience.

39:10Matt Roberts: They can sort you out with awesome tickets, premium accommodation, plus VIP hospitality at the 72 Club. Just head to toursfortennis.com forward slash podcast, click the Miami Open banner and use the code DEUCE5 for 5 % off official travel packages. That's tours, the number for tennis.com forward slash podcast. And the code is D-E-U-C-E-5. Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk about bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real, lots of firms throw a couple of flashy fans your way and call it a day.

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41:08Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast. Alternate title for this part of the show, the Bertie van der Zandtschulp Apology Tour.

41:20David Law: Not on our behalf. I forgot.

41:22Matt Roberts: I forgot him when I was going through the order of play on last night's show. And he took that personally.

41:29David Law: I'll show that, Catherine Whittaker. Didn't feel like he was showing me at two sets to love down when I'd just seen him lose the second set tie break, seven points to nothing. He just wanted to give you a bit of drama, a bit of bang for your buck as a boated guy.

41:45Matt Roberts: Sure did that. Five hours and 13 minutes from two sets to love and match point down to beat lucky loser Artajea. Three, six, six, seven, seven, six, seven, six, six, four. I got you both out to grandstand by the end of this. That's how that's how vibesy it was. It was. I actually ran, well, marched over from Armstrong and the end of another five setters tonight with tennis podcast listener Nadia, who found me on Armstrong. We marched over to Grandstand. It's quite a long walk from Armstrong to Grandstand. We were committed, got there and it did not disappoint. With all the other jolly cum ladies that were flooding in.

42:31Just joining in for the final stages. We weren't there for five hours. Nor was I, to be clear I wonder how many were

42:40David Law: Raymond Slouter There were a lot of people in Dutch football shirts I tell you what, end of the second set

42:47Matt Roberts: it was pretty sparse out there Tumbleweed The thing is, we have been watching on the screen and Jaya, when he had that

42:55Catherine Whitaker: match point, he should have won it there and there and he had a volley and didn't put it away and Burtick passed him And in the words of Burtick, Jaya played a sloppy match. Such a crazy thing to say after five and a quarter hours. Just rub it in a bit. So Burtick. And the media seating where David and I were and our friend Andrew for the very end of the match, there was the woman there, the steward, sort of guarding that, not guarding, being helpful at that gate. and when Bortik van der Zanskulp finally clinched it on match point she yelped, oh my god, I get to go home

43:46Tennis stewards everywhere will relate Yeah, incredible So it will be Bortik against top seed Alexander Zverev in the quarterfinals or certainly the remains of Bortik van der Zanskulp I don't know how much he's got left in the tank after back-to-back five setters. Zverev, straight sets for him tonight.

44:07Matt Roberts: Over Luciano Darderi, 6-2, 6-2, 7-6, was lucky not to be dragged into some elongated drama there in the third set, Zverev. But by and large, certainly for the first couple of sets, this was business-like locked in, Zverev.

44:23David Law: Yeah, and even in the third set, I mean, Darderi kind of came alive a bit, but I never really felt like he was going to win that set. There was one really long point in the tiebreak when the score was close and he was hitting the ball really, really well. Zverev absorbed it all and eventually Darderi hit the net. And that was kind of his chance gone. He lost the next two points against the serve. And yet Zverev's level has just improved out of sight from those first two rounds. And in fact, throughout the summer, he's not been good and but in the first two sets of this one 6-2-6-2 total business he just he is owning this nighttime slot because he's been second on for all four of his matches and whilst that is a you know a negative in some senses that you're finishing in the middle of the night these other lads come out and they've never they haven't done any of that so that i don't think they're quite ready for it to billow and and tonight darderi they just didn't look really tuned in until they were halfway through and they're already a set and half down um botick i mean that's a big ask to come out after back-to-back five set matches and and try to be you know competitive against verev so he's got he's got the game to to do it i think if he had a really good day and if he was fresh enough because he hits the ball so incredibly well.

45:54David Law: But I think it's a big ask. Yeah, even your biggest Bortick fan thinks that's a big ask. Not an impossible ask, but a big ask. Sorry, Bortick. Just seen, by the way, a reminder that they've changed the schedule a bit this year and there is only the night session on Wednesday. So it's three day session matches on Wednesday and one night session. So the Wednesday night session will just be the Zverev-Van de Zanskopp match. They could do with that not being a blowout.

46:34Catherine Whitaker: Wow. How French open of them. Well, exactly. Dynamic pricing, though, could come back to bite them there. Is that so the women have to come back the next day? Have a bit more time? Yes, so both women's matches are in the day session. Right. So we'll let you know how much those tickets are going for tomorrow. The other quarterfinal from this top half of the draw that will be played in the day session on Wednesday will be Karen Hashinov against Alexander Blocks. I'd say dynamic pricing-wise, they're lucky that they've got those two women's quarterfinals to prop up that order of play. Yeah, I mean, you say it will be played.

47:18I think there's a chance it won't be. I mean, there is definitely a chance there won't be. I mean, Alexander Blox has told us pretty much there's a chance it won't be. Alexander Blox somehow beat Francisco Sorindolo today in four sets despite dabbling quite very seriously with retiring in the third set. He basically said if he hadn't won that third set, he was going to retire. He had an issue. He said it was his rib.

47:53Matt Roberts: It looked like it was his whole kind of right side up to the shoulder.

47:57David Law: It was almost sort of rib on the right side up to the armpit. And he was getting that manipulated after about three games of the match. Very early. Really early. He had it before the match. He said he took pain medication before the match. During the match, it was described as magical medications. After the match, he told Gil Gross on US Open Radio shortly after the match that even though there's a lot of pain meds in my body right now, I still feel the pain. And he says, yes, he is worried about the next round. And he also said in his on-call interview, to be honest, I was just holding on at the end, which is a bit of a bloat for Francisco Sarangelo.

48:43I mean, extraordinary effort for him to come through that. But it's a big worry for that quarterfinal. Yeah, it is. I must say, like, an extraordinary effort to come through. Also, like, if you were just watching some of the points, you probably wouldn't have known that he was in that much pain. You know, there were some slow moments to this match, but there were some incredible highs as well.

49:15Catherine Whitaker: I mean, one thing that instantly comes to mind was an absolutely outrageous running forehand that blocks hit at one point. Like, just remarkable pace on it. and he kept up a pretty good level throughout, especially when you know he was feeling like this. And I think Surundalo just struggled on the big points. Blox played them a lot better, a lot tougher than Surundalo did and managed to get over the line in four. But yeah, like it's a definite concern for the match to even be played, I think. And there's also a concern about, you know, if he gets a set in and he's down a set and he's not got the foothold in the match that he had today.

50:05Yeah.

50:05Catherine Whitaker: Might he retire? You know, like that's a concern, I think. I think my prediction on my newsletter prediction on Wednesday is going to be Karen Hashinov in three sets. Put it that way. Hashinov beat TN, learner TN today to make that quarterfinal. five sets for Hashanov 7-5-4-6-6-7-6-1-6-4 he trailed by two sets to one this was Lernotien's first ever five set defeat did he let this slip away?

50:36David Law: I think he did in as much as I don't think he had his form today Lernotien I think he was he was pulling rabbits out of hats to stay in it for the majority and I think he got a bit lucky to go two sets to one up. He was very passive in the early stages of the match. He realized he needed to step on it because Khachanov was bossing it, really. He was bullying him. And when he tried to step on it and retaliate, he was hitting out. And then suddenly it clicked into gear and he won the second set and he just started to look like himself. The third set, he had the upper hand, but he didn't seal it.

51:20David Law: And then when they went into the tie break, Hachinov led 5-3 and had a backhand cross court into an open court, having dragged Tien out of court. And he pulled it wide. You were both sitting with me when that happened. And it was just a terrible, terrible shot. It would have put him up 6-3 and given him three set points to go two sets to one up Hachinov. Instead, he's 5-4 ahead. and the whole thing just tailed away from him. I mean, Tien does come up with some extraordinary shots. His ability to kind of get out of situations is the sort of thing that makes a crowd just rise. Hashanov doesn't really have that.

52:08David Law: He's a relentless guy. But once they went into the decider, again, it was just wizardry from Tien to stay in it. and eventually kind of rode his luck one too many times. And Hashanov deserved that win today. You know, he won the fourth set really easy. That's happening too often for Tien. He lost a 6-1 set against Mensik. He lost a very one-sided set here. But he's young. He's really young. He's new to this and he's going to keep getting better. I mean, I love watching him. But I do also think this was one that's got away from him. I think he should have won this match. Like when they came into it, I thought he would win.

52:51Yeah, and I think he felt that.

52:53Catherine Whitaker: Like right at the end of the match, he was, you could tell he was furious with himself that he'd lost this. He actually sort of swiped his racket away right at the end. He sort of very consciously chose a point where I think he knew there would be no one around. He did it very low, but he sort of threw the racket into the side of the court with pure frustration and just sort of hung back at the baseline before going to shake Hachinov's hand. He was really annoyed that he'd lost this one because he was up a break in the fifth early on and he had chances down the stretch as well. But David's right.

53:30Catherine Whitaker: He didn't have the sweet timing on the ball that I've seen him have in the past. You think of how he destroyed Medvedev at the Australian Open. and everything he was touching was just turning to gold. That wasn't happening today. He was pushing the ball quite a lot and having to come up with brilliance to live with Hatchenov. But he is a player I love watching and he can kind of hit a winner from anywhere. There was one of those sort of sky hook smashes out of the sky right at the end. And we saw him do a kind of Nadal-like forehand pass down the line at the end of the third where the gap's so small and he manages to find the winner from so deep in the core.

54:23Catherine Whitaker: It's a joy to watch him play. But Hachinov was more consistently good tonight and has got more experience of winning these sorts of matches. and credit to him because he was unseated at this slam for the first time in a while and out of form. He's had a tough year, hasn't he? He's had a tough year, but he looks just like the current action of that we've known for so long. It's impressive. Tough year, but still played his best at the majors, which is his trademark.

54:53David Law: He didn't win a match between Wimbledon and the US Open. He lost first round of both Canada and Cincinnati and he entered a challenger and he lost 6-4, 6-2 to Bernard Tomic. so he'd really not been in any form at all coming in but suddenly he's found it.

55:09Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, and I saw Gil Gross reporting that he's changed his racket just before the tournament. He's tinkered a bit with that. I think he'd been using a newer model of a racket. He's gone back to something a bit more in between and yeah, he seems to have the sort of feel back. And a heavy favourite, given what we're saying about blocks, you'd have to say to reach the semi-finals. Okay, that is it for part two. We'll be back in part three to look ahead to tomorrow's blockbuster order of play.

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56:40Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of today's tennis podcast. Looking ahead now to tomorrow's order of play, the quarterfinals getting underway on Tuesday. We start as usual at 11.30 on Ash with the top seed and defending champion Irina Sabalenka against Linda Nozkova. Who's going to win?

57:03David Law: I think Sabalenka's going to win. But I don't say that with massive confidence. I love the fact that we have this lineup of matches for which I can't confidently pick winners. You know, they're all belters. And, yeah, I think Sabalenka, her force of nature and sort of champion-like qualities and sheer frustration at not having won a Grand Slam this year will come to the fore. Will she implode? That's the big question. Will she sort of combust and Noshkaver in her quietly devastating way upset the odds again? But I don't know. I think Sabalenka. Matt? I think I'll go Noskova. I think I'm sort of running out of Sabalenka matches for her to lose, I suppose.

57:58And I keep thinking she's not going to win this tournament. Now she's up against the Wimbledon champion, who I do think has the, you know, the demeanour to stay calm and just deliver the tennis

58:13Catherine Whitaker: while whatever's going on with Sabalenka goes on. but kind of what we said about Taylor Townsend which didn't end up coming to the fore because of how one-sided that match was but if Sabalenka can get through this one I'll be really thinking about her as perhaps even the favourite for the title I think this is such a big test Yeah, I agree, absolutely Second on Francis Tiafoe against Alex Mickelson Anyone going Mickelson there? Looking at you, David?

58:50David Law: No. I think it's going to be close. But no. Going Tiafoe, Matt?

58:56Catherine Whitaker: Going Tiafoe, yeah. Incidentally, David and I saw him hitting on the Arthrash Stadium today. I think he's going to practice again in the morning. He's not been playing there. It's weird to think that Tiafoe kind of needs practice on the Arthrash Stadium. But I do think that's a factor. So if this was on Armstrong, I'd feel a lot better about Tiafoe. But at the same time, you sort of think, well, how's Mickelson going to respond to Ash as well?

59:22David Law: That's a big factor. I do wonder whether this might be the first time that Tiafoe's played on Arthur Ashe since that heartbreaker against Taylor Fritz a couple of years ago when he lost in the semifinals.

59:36Matt Roberts: I think it is, because he lost on Grandstand last year. Yeah, he lost pretty early last year.

59:40David Law: so I just you know he doesn't need to get used to it again it's it it's if you've never been in these stadiums it's hard to explain just how different they are how enormous the Arthras Stadium is compared to Louis Armstrong which is you know it's a big steeply banked well populated court but it's the footprint of it is tiny by comparison you know suddenly you just it seems to go on forever there, the Arthrasch Stadium. And I would have thought just your sort of perspective as you're trying to work out the dimensions of the court look different to you. And he's such an expressive tennis player, Francis Jaffa, isn't he?

1:00:20He's such a unique, quirky tennis player. And he's very clear about Armstrong is where he feels at home and comfortable and most able to express himself. I do think there's a significant difference there. And I do think the pressure is more on Tiafoe. Big time. He's the one everyone will know. He's got fewer shots left at this because he's older. He's going to be feeling that. And I think maybe for Mickelson to have the Ash experience

1:00:52Catherine Whitaker: as an American where he's not the American, maybe that will be helpful for him and will allow him to play. But I do ultimately think Tiafoe is playing well enough for him to handle all these external factors.

1:01:04David Law: Just a quick note on a piece I saw in The Athletic, because Tien and Mickelson are both great mates, and the point was made that they've got lots of time, you know, because of their age, and yet it feels like they'd better make the most of it now because they've got this chance, and you almost saw it in Tien's body language. It's like, oh, I was right here. You might not be in this position in a year's time for whatever reason. Night session, 7pm, Jessica Bagula against Emma Navarro. Anyone going for the upset there, Navarro? Obviously not you, Matt.

1:01:39Catherine Whitaker: No, I'm not going to go for it. But again, it's a tricky, tricky match.

1:01:44David Law: She won't beat herself, Navarro. Some players, I feel like Pagula can play solid tennis and the other person can just lose it. And I don't think that will be the case today for this one. I think Pagula is going to have to take it, and I think she will. And then the big one The last match of the day Ben Shelton Against Carlos Alcaraz Anyone going Shelton? No I'm going Alcaraz Yeah

1:02:15Matt Roberts: Oh David's tempted

1:02:17David Law: Well I've said Shelton will win this tournament So I can't really You are allowed to change your mind

1:02:24Matt Roberts: Yeah and you should Change your mind If you've seen something that You said that You know there's a lot more evidence and data now than he had.

1:02:32David Law: Yeah, I am surprised at how well Al Krause is playing this quickly. I think he's going to win. I think he's going to win, but it's going to be not nail-biting. I don't see this being five sets, but I see it being close sets. Certainly two of them. I said the other day, it reminds me of Roddy Confedera, so I'm going to go 7-6, 7-6, 6-2. Giving us a score prediction.

1:02:57Matt Roberts: What a man. Thank you very much, David. Okay, that is it. We'll be back. I think we're going to stay probably to the end of that one, aren't we, on site? And we'll be back in the aftermath of Shelton against Alcaraz to bring you tomorrow's daily tennis podcast from the US Open with our US Open mascot, Leo. My goodness, dog. Cool dog, isn't it? Here is Leo at the laptop. checking in on predictions, apparently, to make sure everything is in order. No, it's not in order, Leo. I had a stinker today. Why didn't I go for Bortick?

1:03:35David Law: Who did you go for?

1:03:37Matt Roberts: Then a TN. In four. Two sets to one and up. It was all looking... Oh, yeah.

1:03:42David Law: I thought you had it. Then I copied and pasted yours as well. Yeah. He's on a very chic leopard print cushion, which I do like.

1:03:51Matt Roberts: Apparently, I missed Puppy Day at the US Open a couple of days ago. Pam didn't tell me about it. And there was a puppy called Billie Jean. Yeah, there was another Billie Jean.

1:04:03David Law: Pam's in trouble. Pam didn't want to disappoint you by inviting you somewhere that you didn't have the accreditation for. But I think I did have the accreditation for it. Yeah, there was some... Would you have been more annoyed? I think... This is a good question. Would you have been more annoyed if you'd been... Denied. Denied access. Oh, yeah, that would have been terrible. Yeah. I think Pam was really kind. If I'd gotten to some kind of barricade that I knew the puppies were on the other side of. And there were dogs that you could reach out and almost touch. And there was an officious security person denying the access.

1:04:32Yeah, that would have been a disaster. I'd have ended up with my accreditation revoked. Yes, that's what I was going to say. I'd have got myself in a situation. Yeah, absolutely, 100%. Pam was saving us all from that. Because we need your accreditation.

1:04:47Matt Roberts: Thank you and hello to our mascots, Bodhi, Maisie and Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. Jeff, we're still waiting for you to show up. Right, Jeff. Shout outs can wait tonight. Apparently they'll be back tomorrow. But of course, we are part of the Athletic Podcast Network. And a quick reminder before we go that if you're an NFL fan, the Athletic has something super duper exciting for you starting next week. It is the Athletic Live presented by Google Gemini. and it's a brand new YouTube watch-along on NFL game days featuring the biggest and the best beach reporters that The Athletic has to offer.

1:05:25Matt Roberts: You can even become part of the show in the interactive chat on YouTube. I think you might find David Law there.

1:05:31David Law: Every time you read that out, I do think, ooh, I wouldn't mind having a go at that.

1:05:36Matt Roberts: Yeah, Seahawks fans unite. Yeah. It all starts from September 8th, so do check that out if you fancy it. Folks, thanks ever so much for listening. We'll, of course, be back tomorrow and we'll speak to you then.

1:06:14Discover.com slash five for details.

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