Washington - Electric Eala breaks new ground

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1:13Matt Roberts: Well, hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast again. We are back again, this time to talk about Washington, which has finally reached its conclusion after an absolutely miserable day of weather on Sunday, the scheduled day for the two singles finals, the women's between Alexandra Ayala and Jessica Pegula and the men's between Taylor Fritz and Raphael Hodar. They came back on Monday. They had apparently the best atmosphere there's ever been for a Monday final. David was a very big person and managed not to, provocatively text Goran Ivanovic that quote.

1:55David Law: So far. The day is long yet. I think I might just, you know, I mean, look, it was an amazing atmosphere, but some short memories there.

2:07Matt Roberts: Yeah, look, it was fantastic. It wasn't full. I don't think anybody was expecting it necessarily to be full, but there were some tickets available on the gate, And it did seem like a good proportion of those went to the local Filipino population. And I don't think any of them would have regretted their choices because they got to see 21-year-old Alex Ayala from the Philippines win her maiden WTA singles title with a comeback victory over the top seed Jessica Bagula 4-6, 6-4, 6-love. a match that was delayed overnight with Eala trailing by a set to love. And the victory over the top seed in the final makes it just the most extraordinary run to any title, quite frankly, let alone a maiden singles title.

3:00Matt Roberts: So she beat Jung Chin Wen in her opening match, dropped the opening set of that match, did Eala, then didn't lose another set en route to the final against Pagula. She beat Leila Fernandes, the defending champion. She beat Alina Svitolina and she beat Naomi Osaka, meaning she beat the top two seeds, the defending champion, a four time major winner and the reigning Olympic gold medalist to win. I'll say it again, her first WTA singles title. Talk about ticking off the milestones, Mats. It's safe to say Alex Ayala is very much here. And by here, I mean at the top of the sport now. She is a top 20 player as of right now.

3:47Catherine Whitaker: She is. And as you say, she keeps bamboozling the very, very top players. We've seen her beat Rabatkinner and Svantec. And this run that she just had this week as well adds to that. And she's got a win over Goff as well this year. I know it was by retirement, but it's still there. And I think it's easy to underestimate her as a player. I think you can look at her serve, quite frankly, and think, well, surely the top players should be doing better against that shot. But at the moment, they're not. And one after another, her game, her lefty game, her unusual game, is causing players so many problems.

4:38Catherine Whitaker: Add to that, I think she has an absolutely elite level return of serve. The way she has been just destroying players' serves this week, particularly Osaka's, has been incredibly notable. Her ground strokes hold up so well. Plus, you get this incredible atmosphere and support at all of her matches, which surely gives her this boost because she handles it so well. that you put all of that together and it becomes incredibly difficult i think for these players to actually face her and you know it's such a joy like she's she's she's changing the way the sport sounds and looks and feels like for one player to have that effect on the entire sport is really really moving I find I think it must have been really hard for Jessica Pagula at home in a final a tournament she's won before and she comes back the next day and there's barely anyone in the stadium rooting for her I thought in the match she handled it really poorly and in the speech afterwards she handled it really well and said what an amazing thing it is to witness and be part of when Iala is bringing in those fans but yeah like the top of the sport there's a conundrum there that not many of them are solving right now the awkwardness of Iala's game and I think she's doing this thing of making them play poorly and raising her own game to heights that is kind of taking them aback it's it's it's incredible to watch this is the thing David isn't it she's

6:25Matt Roberts: she's still so relatively new to this. And yet it feels to me, even before this title this week, which will only enhance this, but it feels to me like she's already got a bit of a locker remora. You know, you can see players, when they step up to the service line against her, they're thinking about what she can do on that return. There is a fear of the Ayala return. There's a fear of the sound that a tennis match is going to bring when she steps onto the court. and maybe we'll talk in a moment about whether there's any risk of kind of second season syndrome for Ayala and people getting used to all of that and maybe unlocking the codes a little bit.

7:07Matt Roberts: I don't know the answer to that but right now it feels to me like there's a wariness of Alex Ayala among the other players on tour.

7:17David Law: Yeah I think that's right and I think she knows it too and it empowers her. It was quite interesting watching the difference between the two days where you saw the downsides of Viola's game where it just wasn't really taking off. And Pegula was playing really, really well in that first day.

7:38Matt Roberts: How would you summarise those downsides?

7:41David Law: I think she is an instinctive player. I think she has good strategy. She knows what she's out there to do. but I think when she starts to feel it, she becomes this force. And then you add that force internally to what's going on externally with the crowd. And down the other end, you must feel as though you just don't really have a say in what's going on. I mean, players look quite rattled by it. Almost as though this isn't fair. Listen to this. I'm not saying it's hindrance but it's because they're very I think the crowds are very polite and they're in as much as they're cheering at the right time they're not making noise through the rallies and stuff like that but it's just so one-sided it's pretty overwhelming when it gets going and then Iala seems to draw strength from it it's kind of this two-way relationship so and I think you actually make a very good point about what happens down the track if people who are going to be studying Iala, where are the gaps, where are the holes, what can I exploit, that isn't happening yet.

8:58David Law: I was thinking back to Jasmine Paolini's win over her at Wimbledon and I thought, I mean Paolini played very well that day but I also thought Iala just powered down. I felt like she was gradually losing physical ability you know all the strapping i mean she said at the time it's preventative but she didn't look like she had quad as much in the tank certainly she did last night and and i think she might get better over the years but she might never be more dangerous than she is right now because she's new um and and it's to me it's a game that could take out anybody in the world it's sort of can she time it right because if you win this tournament and then you go and do well in the next two maybe you've got nothing left when the US Open comes around it's one of those because I actually think that she's capable of having a heck of a run at the US Open if she gets going.

9:52Matt Roberts: Do you think that's how she needs to be thinking about it now as as the Washington champion beating those players that she has to win that title she needs to now be thinking in terms of the next few weeks is peaking at the US Open and giving herself a chance to go deep and win that I don't think maybe go deep or win that see that would suggest the question

10:18David Law: really is should she preemptively pull out of one of Canada or Cincinnati and I don't think she

10:26Matt Roberts: should unless she feels she she should casper rude it and make hay while the while the sun is

10:33David Law: shining it's too early in her career to be making choices like that i think but i could also see her doing well in those tournaments all the emotion get into new york and actually be hanging on a bit like i think we'll talk about rafael hoddard later i think he is going to hit the wall at some point the way things are going um and so it's that's that's the the conundrum that everybody faces now with these two-week masters. But just on Iala just generally, I think that's a lovely way of putting it from Matt. She's changing the sound of tennis. Gives me goosebumps thinking about it. She's one of the best bits of news that tennis has had in years, Alex Iala.

11:18Matt Roberts: It's hard to overstate it, actually, isn't it? she's such a big deal for the sport.

11:26Catherine Whitaker: Huge.

11:26Matt Roberts: She's such a game changer.

11:29Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, and throwing it ahead to the US Open, one of my only sort of in-person experiences of Iala was last year at the US Open when she beat Towson in the first round in a final set tiebreak on grandstand. and it was packed. I mean, you could not get a seat. I had to go to the back. I was standing, trying to get a glimpse of it. But really, you could get the experience from outside the stadium. You knew who was winning the points, even when you were on a different court, because it sounded different when Iala was winning it. So we know she's got that support in New York. and the thought of her playing some of these top names now a year on from that with her game developed and having caused all the damage she's caused on the WTA tour this year to those top players is really exciting to me.

12:29Catherine Whitaker: And I could see Canada being tough for her just because of the very quick turnaround now, especially with the delayed final in Washington. and she's going to have to play, you know, next couple of days, isn't she? I think that's going to be tough. That's what I mean.

12:45Matt Roberts: Could be a gift to go out earlier in Canada.

12:48Catherine Whitaker: Or she might continue riding this wave and momentum and keep it going. But it might be a blessing in disguise if she plays Canada, maybe doesn't quite have a great tournament and then picks it back up again and runs through Cincinnati and New York.

13:07Matt Roberts: she's one of those players where every time she every time she goes to hit the ball I've well not perhaps not every single time but so often I'm surprised at where the ball ends up and those are some of my very favorite players I'm like oh she's done that with it and part of that is how early she's able to take the ball so there's just that element of oh god I wasn't I wasn't ready for this uh and suddenly you've hit this bending bending forehand that seems to defy physics and and and gravity to end up in a corner of the court that I didn't think it was plausible for for you to put the ball but I just love that feeling of constantly being on the edge of my seat for what she's going to do do with the tennis ball um on on both wings and I and And I'd love to see some stats on power and whether she has added power to her game as much as it looks like she has to me.

14:06Matt Roberts: It could be a trick of the eye. But to see her holding her own against these so many of these power hitters that she's played this week, I found quite a formidable sight, actually. on the as David was saying there Matt about you know people are going to be studying her now and looking for weaknesses to exploit of course that's true but I do feel like we already know right it is the serve and all the players know the locker room knows that's the thing to target and yet they're not having all that much success

14:48Catherine Whitaker: what do you put that down to i'm really not sure i mean there was there was a clip wasn't there of pagula practicing before the final with her hitting partner who hit a serve and then pagula was like no slower i need i need to practice returning a slower serve and it comes across as shade right and maybe then when she loses it it can look amusing but actually i do think it's the right thing to do like I think they need to be practicing a slower ball I also think the leftiness element is very important you know like I've played lefties even at my level and they don't necessarily have a better serve than some of the right handers I've played but the angle is different it's not an angle you see all that often throw in the speed and suddenly they've just got something they're not used to and I think that is very hard for players on the fly in a pressure situation to cope with.

15:46Catherine Whitaker: We saw it in a different shot, but we saw it when Tatiana Maria won Queen's. Just a series of great players, better players than Tatiana Maria, unable to cope with this one unorthodox shot. And I think Iala's got a bit of that going on right now. I think it's particularly... It's interesting how it seems to be really affecting the top players. It's almost like it's a bit of an ego thing. Like they want to just see this ball and hit this ball and crush this ball and assert their authority over Iala. But they can't do it at the moment and it's messing them up. But that, to your point, Catherine, maybe with time, this is something that some of those players will figure out a bit more.

16:33Catherine Whitaker: But it does, to me, that is your way into trying to beat Iala. And maybe that's part of it as well. They think if I don't take advantage of this second serve or even this quite slow first serve, suddenly I'm going to be in a rally and she's going to take the ball early. She's going to hit the ball up the line with ease. She's going to do something I'm not expecting, as you've been saying. And they're feeling a pressure on the return to really do something with the ball, even if actually they'd be better off not doing that and trying to play a bit more of a long game with her. but it's fascinating.

17:12Catherine Whitaker: Which Paolini did, by the way. Yes.

17:13David Law: She managed to sort of just absorb the game but I still don't know whether she'd have done that if Iala was at full strength. Yeah.

17:24Matt Roberts: I do think, I don't have the data to back this up but it makes sense to me that a good way to develop a resilient tennis player with great mental toughness and ability to focus would be for them to have a poor serve in the development stages. Because you can't clock out from it. There's no backstop there. There's no just racing through a service game with some aces. I mean, obviously, this is kind of more applicable in men's tennis than in women's. But it still works, I think. She just doesn't go away, ever. And she doesn't know when she's beaten. And by contrast, I thought there were real similarities between the demeanour of Osaka and Pagula on the court against her in the semis and finals.

18:19Matt Roberts: OK, Pagula was able to make more of a match of it, certainly on Sunday. But on the resumption on Monday, I thought it was quite a mentally poor effort from Pagula. actually I was quite taken aback by it and the same from Osaka in the semi-finals she just there wasn't a lot of resistance there it looked like to me I don't know whether that's harsh and I know as we've just been waxing lyrical about there is an awful lot of unique stuff to deal with when you're playing Alex Ayala but these are champion tennis players these are you know the top seeds, a full-time Grand Slam champion, I was a bit shocked by what we ended up getting from them in the latter stages, both of them.

19:09Yeah.

19:12David Law: The thing that they seemed to have in common, apart from the demeanour, was the way their timing seemed to just completely disappear. And bear in mind, Pagoula was really good on Sunday. She was comfortably the better player. and I think if that had gone much longer she's probably going to win that in straight sets and I don't know what changed in from day to day whether the conditions might have just felt totally different I mean obviously the weather was very different overcast on Sunday even when it wasn't raining and then suddenly bright sunshine yesterday but when I was watching Osaka she kept that close to sort of 4-3 in the first set and then it just she's just looking at her coach where I can't time the ball.

19:56David Law: She's hitting forehands halfway up the net, way long, way wide. You know, just that lower angle shot that you get to see the trajectory of the ball. You're thinking, this doesn't even look like professional tennis that she's playing right now. And then Pagoula's lost a six-love set against Iala. When does that happen? You know, again, she looked bereft. She kept tapping the strings of a racket, checking the tension. She went to change the racket sort of mid-game and had a couple leaning against the chair and she just went and picked one of those up. She just looked bereft as to what was going wrong.

20:32David Law: And I do think, look, I think a lot of that is what Ayala does to you. She suddenly shocks you and your game that was working suddenly isn't working anymore. But also, I mean, maybe it's just coincidental that they both just had a really bad patch in similar times of the match. But it was terrible from them both.

20:50Matt Roberts: I do think Matt's ego point is perhaps a relevant one. They just try and, particularly Osaka, I thought was just, I'll just keep trying to hit through this. And that's not working. Maybe try and rein in the margins. Very easy for me to say, isn't it? But poor old Jessica Bagula. I mean, it is one of the cruelest things in sport, I think, that tennis makes its losers remain on court for the victors' trophy ceremony. This was a particularly long trophy ceremony. Bless him, Mark Eyne, the tournament director, who I think is one of tennis' good eggs. And he gave a lovely speech. He had a lot to say.

21:37Matt Roberts: He had a lot of people that he wanted to thank because, you know this, David, putting on a Monday final at the last minute, And this is not easy stuff. And it requires a lot of people that are already on their last legs in terms of exhaustion to put in a pretty big deal over time shift. And he wanted to thank all of them. And that's lovely. But my God, was that a long speech. It was about as long as the third set. When you've just lost a six love set and it's, you know, I mean, I did feel for her. yeah I felt for her yeah I thought that was such a good speech Pagula gave she had a long time to think about it she did to be fair and compose herself but like that's the thing

22:28Catherine Whitaker: there might be a kind of if there is any kind of ego thing in the moment in the match that was all gone in the speech Pagula just totally took herself out of it and credited Iala and realised that she was a part of this pretty cool thing that was happening. OK, she was the victim of it in terms of she was like, it's really bloody hard to deal with in the moment, but it's a really good thing for tennis. She had that perspective that just because it's not good for me doesn't mean it's not good for the sport generally. And then she shouted out all the ground staff and people working. And she recognised the extra effort that had gone into putting on that Monday final.

23:09Catherine Whitaker: I thought it was a really classy speech in defeat from Pegula.

23:15Matt Roberts: How are you feeling, Matt, after that week from Pegula about your big Pegula prediction, TM? No, no, Hannah's with me. Is she? Yeah. But it is still yours. She's jumping on the bandwagon, but you're very much driving that thing, I would say.

23:37David Law: Catherine's not that enough. If I'm going down, I'm going down with Hannah.

23:43Catherine Whitaker: To be honest, it doesn't really change anything for me. Like, I think she went in, she said, didn't she, she went into Washington with very low expectations. She'd been at, I think, two of the weddings that we talked about. I don't think she'd done an awful lot of training, by the sound of things. I think she was pretty pleased generally to get to the final. Which two did she get? Was she at Tommy Paul's? Yes, and I think Asia Muhammad as well.

24:10Matt Roberts: Rough scene for any Americans that weren't invited to Tommy Paul's wedding. It does feel like that net was cast pretty wide. Yeah. Looked fun, though. The thing about Pagulan, I'm not backing out of my prediction, to be clear, but I just want to provide a little bit more context. I thought

24:37Catherine Whitaker: and I think I made that prediction in early April I thought that one of the reasons she might be best placed to win the US Open is that I thought Sabalenka was going to tear it up over the clay and the grass this year for the first time and I thought she might be a bit of a weaker force as a result going into the US Open actually what's happened is the complete opposite and it feels suddenly like Sabalenka's got a real point to prove to try and get this year back on track because you know she was best player of the year okay without the major through the first few months of it but she's been by her standards pretty poor over the last few months I think I was expecting a bit of a burnt out Sabalenka coming into the US Open and I thought Pagula could be because she's so steady Pagula she's so good at managing her energy through a season now maybe it's possible that she can do it another way and win the US Open because Sabalenka is not not at her best and maybe that is still going to be helpful for someone like Pagula but I just think the picture of women's tennis is not it's not looking going into this US Open like I thought it would a few months ago if that makes sense yeah it does and look Sabalenka was in that

25:56Matt Roberts: a very similar situation last year wasn't she which was kind of like my god I'm the world number one there is no way I'm getting to the end of this season without a grand slam I better I better blooming win this one and she did um and and you know this this time around she's got the world number one position under potential threat which again I think she's a player that number one means a lot to I think that will sharpen the focus big time sorry what would you love to see

26:30Catherine Whitaker: Ayala Sabalenka in New York.

26:35Matt Roberts: I don't think, gosh, I don't think Sabalenka's scrambled eggs would enjoy that.

26:45Matt Roberts: What do they do with Ayala's scheduling? What would you do with Ayala's scheduling-wise at the US Open? Because I would just love to see, certainly early rounds, her on grandstand again. I certainly don't want her on a rinky-dink outdoor court where only David can watch her because he's six foot seven. But Grandstand would be... Grandstand... I love Grandstand as a court. It's one of my favourite courts in the world. And it's big. It's big enough to accommodate a lot of Eala support. and I feel like I want grounds pass holders to be able to taste it still

27:28Catherine Whitaker: you can do Armstrong as well

27:30Matt Roberts: they can do Armstrong but there's I don't know I personally don't have the same affection for Armstrong as I do for Grandstand but there is a case that you've just got to put her on one of the two biggest courts already isn't there

27:47Catherine Whitaker: I think Grandstand or Armstrong are perfect because they're big courts and they have a lot of grounds pass holders.

27:56David Law: Yeah. Great. Grandstand would be great, please. America. Once she plays a top seed or moves into second week, I think then the story's different. But I do feel like there's enough space and there's so much vibe that you can afford to do that. Actually, thinking back now, you know, Clara Tasson did incredibly well to get it to that tie break in that atmosphere. And there could be some players that just can't handle it at all.

28:31Matt Roberts: Big time.

28:32David Law: Do you remember who she lost to in the second round? I didn't remember this, but I've just pulled it up. No. I'd be astonished if you get this. It would be incredible. Was it Priscilla Hont? No. Because she randomly won some matches at last year's US Open. Matt seems to find that funnier than what it actually ended up being. Well, I know the answer is going to be someone that Matt finds funny. Well, it's Bookshire. See? You're right. Reggie there. Reggie was the only person supporting Bookshire. Yeah. Christina Bookshire. I have no memory of that match. She had to run to the fourth round. Remember I interviewed her?

29:12David Law: Yes. I don't quite know why. I remember that. Not for the pod. That must have been for the BBC. no I think do you know what it was I think it was no I think it was sort of one of those little huddles and I just joined it I wasn't invited I just joined it and I just threw it I just started it off can I ask an English question please

29:36didn't she play Sabalenka I want to say

29:40David Law: that rings a bell yeah if that match doesn't stick in my mind it's probably because I imagine it was very brief. But I could be doing Christina Bookshire a tremendous disservice there. OK, that's it for part one.

29:56Matt Roberts: Do join us in part two, though, where we will talk about the men's event in Washington.

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31:58Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast. I reckon our listener and viewership for this part of the show is probably about 10 % of what the audience was for part one. We've probably lost quite a lot of the Philippines during that brief pause. But here we are talking about Taylor Fritz and his biggest title since 2022. 7-6-6-4 over Raphael Hodder in the final yesterday. I mean, repeatable Taylor Fritz analysis here, David, but he's a stubborn so-and-so, isn't he?

32:36David Law: He sure is. This is not the biggest tournament that he's going to play this year, even this summer. He's now going to go on to a couple of 1 ,000s and then a grand slam, but he put his life and soul into this tournament only a few weeks, a couple of weeks, after finishing against Verev, looking in real pain and real trouble. and here he is in Washington playing guys like Alex Mickelson who's a really good player and who's beaten him a couple of times in a row now and he edges him 7-6 in the third and then he goes into the final and he's playing a young guy in Rafael Hodder who's hitting the Livingdale outside of the ball and he's just scrapping for everything Fritz I actually thought he, for the most part in this match he was excellent he really found some aggression at the important moments to kind of break the back of the match, to win the first set, to get up, break the serve.

33:35David Law: And then in the second set, late on, I thought you could see nervousness come into his game, which ended up making him conservative. And he starts overly spinning the ball and looping it in and asking for it to be hit. But I'm pleased to see him just playing well again and winning. because like you said, that's quite a snatch really that it's so long that it's been since he won a title of this size and yeah, good on him. I would have thought he'd won more than 11 titles when they said that at the end, given how regular he is at the end of tournaments but yeah, it felt like a big one the way he collapsed to the ground.

34:18Matt Roberts: I don't understand this knee injury, David. I'm not sure that Taylor Fritz understands this knee injury. This is a chronic thing that he's managing. So I know it's always going to be there to some extent, but I don't understand how he's gone from the situation he was in at Wimbledon to a seemingly pretty pain-free and OK situation in Washington. He did have the physio out once, didn't he, in one of his early rounds. But it was night and day compared to what we saw against Verev at Wimbledon when I felt quite gloomy about that knee, quite frankly.

35:00David Law: Well, you know, I felt similarly. I was really curious. I don't understand this injury. So I went back and I read his transcript from the defeat against Verev before yesterday's final. And I read his opening transcripts from the sort of preview of this tournament. to see what have you been doing in between to get back on course and winning this title given how you looked that day and he went into some detail my goodness does does he know what chapter and verse about his knee and he's absolutely emphatic about why he's doing what he's doing and what's what's happening along the way and he explains it as as in december there having been a hole in his knee where the tendon should have been which was causing the tendonitis the pain that he receives and he says the reason he says you can't just rest it because if you do the tendon won't grow back and he says you have to do the rehab even if the rehab is hurting and causing pain and it seems you know like should i should i be still doing this you have to do that because that's what makes it grow back and eventually the idea is that after a couple of years they think that it will be sufficiently grown that you won't feel pain and tendonitis anymore um so what happened at Wimbledon that's the big question mark because he'd been playing all tournament long without any issues and he said he was absolutely taken aback by what happened to him three games into that match he said he did feel a little bit of pain towards the end of his previous match and he was a little worried but he said I practiced okay then I came out and he said three games in I was hurting and I was I was and he said it made me panic he said also look that is the best that Alexander Zverev has ever played against me he said he hit his forehand so aggressively said I don't I don't know whether I could have kept up with that even fully fit but it made me panic because I didn't understand why this was happening I thought I understood my and exactly what was going to happen when and he said we did another scan after that um and and it still showed that it was going in the right direction in terms of the this growth of regrowth of the tendon that he needs to fill this hole that he'd had in december um but he said sometimes you're going to get this and you don't exactly know when it's going to come um but so you've got to push your way through some of the pain and keep doing the rehab he said i i'm i know that i'm that I'm able to play with this, but sometimes I'm going to have a bad day with it.

37:43David Law: So really, really fascinating. He said that the medical timeout he had earlier in the tournament was a specific jarring movement that he had mid-rally, which kind of freaked him out. And three games later, that had gone. So he was fine. It was a non-issue. But yeah, that's why he's doing what he's doing. I mean, I think it flared up too much in the spring, which is why he took that time off. But generally speaking, that's his explanation. And he said, I've got so many scans. I mean, he sounded like he wanted to sort of hang them all up for us to have a look at. And he said, you can see the development and how it's going in the right direction all the time.

38:23David Law: He said, every scan looks better than the previous one. But I keep having to have them because I still keep getting some pain and you have to just check. But that's what he explains to us.

38:37Matt Roberts: He's an incredibly open book, isn't he? I mean, he's a real gift in terms of kind of analysing his own game and his own state and being prepared to tell us about it. It's reassuring that I sort of think of injuries like that as being very deteriorative. You know, like, okay, if he's experiencing pain in one match, it's either going to be the same or worse in the next match. There's no way he's going to miraculously be okay the next match without rest. But it sounds like it isn't linear like that at all, which, you know, for someone as stubborn as Taylor Fritz means, I guess, in theory, he can just push through individual matches and then hope to be okay for the next one.

39:33Matt Roberts: Matt, I was pretty shocked with the stat of this being his biggest title since 2022. How much better a player do you think he is than 2022? Much better. of himself he's ever been right now for you no I wouldn't say right now because of

40:00Catherine Whitaker: everything that he's got going on in the background there I think that has as much as he says he can play with it and he is doing a bloody good job of playing with it I do think it has taken something from him and made him a little bit more vulnerable but I think somewhere along the way since 2022 to now, we've seen the best Taylor Fritz. Probably 2024, right, when he reached the US Open final. And that's the thing, he's made so many strides in that time. He's been a pretty consistent American number one and reached the Grand Sam final and reached the ATP finals final. He's done a lot of things.

40:41Catherine Whitaker: He just hadn't been picking up titles at this kind of level before. He'd won quite a lot of 250s in that time. he'd lost four finals in a row before this one and to David's point I definitely think he got pretty nervous and tight at the end of this one and it would have been fascinating if Hodder had managed to get the second break back right at the end as Fritz was trying to serve it out but I think even if his game isn't quite peaking or his physicality isn't quite peaking at the moment I do think his sort of mental toughness and fortitude is as strong as it's ever been I don't really doubt him on that level whereas I doubt quite a lot of the other players on that level even if I think they're better players than Taylor Fritz I don't necessarily back them to always be there and always show up and deliver in the in in most of the big moments as I do with Fritz I just think there are some limitations compared to the very very best in the world but pretty much pretty much everyone's got that and i think fritz would be a good blueprint for hodd are actually you know like there's there's some similarities there in terms of their games i think hodd should be looking at fritz and thinking i need to get my serve to something close to what fritz's is like because that serve is so good.

42:11Catherine Whitaker: It's so underrated. He maxes out on that serve. Yes.

42:15Matt Roberts: So much.

42:15Catherine Whitaker: He backs it up well with his first shot after the serve. And I think for someone like Hodder, who's got a lot of weapons, actually, and a lot of power, actually packaging it so it is a powerful, offensive game, would do him quite a lot of good, I think, going forward.

42:34Matt Roberts: Don't you think Hodder will be or should be targeting being a slightly more explosive player than Fritz? Yes, perhaps.

42:43Catherine Whitaker: But that's kind of what I mean. I think Fritz has got a way to win, though, in terms of big serve, big shot after the serve. And then if that doesn't work, he's also very happy trading and manoeuvring and getting into rallies and outlasting. He's got both sides of his game. I don't quite know what Hodder is at the moment. I think he's doing incredibly well. He's winning so many matches at such a young age. It's impressive. But he's not quite the explosive player that I first saw. He hasn't really been able to carry that on. And that's interesting to me. Because I do think that would make him more dangerous.

43:32Catherine Whitaker: But then he is having the results. So I don't know, really.

43:38Matt Roberts: Yeah, I feel the same. I watch him and I'm like, obviously, this is really good. Here he is in a final. He's 15th in the live rankings. He's 11th in the race. There is legitimate talk about him reaching Turin. This is a guy that most people had never heard of a year ago, that barely had a ranking. This is a pretty bonkers trajectory, even though with talented players you do quite often get these very headline-grabbing stats about their gains in the first year on tour. Even by those standards, this is an unbelievably steep rise. And yet I've watched him latterly, whereas when he played that match against Fonseca in Madrid, and I know conditions in Madrid are quite specific, but at that point in his career, I was like, oh, wow, I get this.

44:39Matt Roberts: He has got something here, both in his game, in the way he's harnessing the crowd, in his whole vibe on the court. Now when I watch him, I'm like, okay, this is good, but I don't quite get what is so uniquely good and exciting about him. And maybe that bodes well, David, in terms of longevity and this being sustainable, this place that he's carving out for himself in the sport, pretty near the top of it. Maybe that does bode well in terms of it being sustainable. But I don't know, to my eye, I am a bit like, OK, this is good. Show me more. Yeah, listen, part of it may be that people are getting more used to him.

45:27David Law: there's more footage to go on so that you can play against him and slightly blunt his weapons the higher you go the better the player you play you're not going to make it look as good against a Taylor Fritz say as you might against somebody who's nowhere near as good as Taylor Fritz they're just better players but when I first saw him play in the spring there were those couple of tournaments he reached the final in Barcelona lost to Fies and he went deep in Madrid it felt like every shot had pretty concussive power even just off rally trade balls it was it was quite shocking how just a normal rally ball seemed to hurt people i feel like some of that has been lost and a part of that may be uh surface specific uh it might be that at its most dangerous on clay uh with it with the the ball bounce and the just the general speed of that of that surface and his comfort on it.

46:28But I also think maybe he's not playing quite as well as he was then.

46:34David Law: I mean, and I know that's harsh when you consider he just reached the final. So that's a bit counterintuitive, what I've said. It's a bit contradictory. But I think also, I think he's going to hit the wall. I said a little earlier, you know, the whole Turin thing, I certainly wouldn't, if I were him, be looking to put any pressure on myself to qualify for that whatsoever because I suspect he's going to have a bit of an Andreva from last year and hit the wall at some point here because this is a lot for somebody who's not done it before. He's doing incredibly well. But even at the French Open, I mean, he managed to get to the quarterfinals.

47:09David Law: I didn't think he was going to win two or three of the matches that he won along the way. He's a good grinder. He'll go two sets to one down in a five-setter or lose a first set and you think, oh, he's gone. and then he'll find a way back you know so he's got a great attitude great mental approach to the sport um but it's not as spectacular as it was in the spring uh and i wonder whether that's a slight lack of freshness maybe he's not playing quite so well maybe it's surface maybe it's opponent i don't know maybe my maybe my eye has adjusted to it i'm used to watching him now or something i'm not sure but it's not it's not quite what it was in terms of like whoa yeah but but i

47:54Catherine Whitaker: suppose what we did also say in the spring was like we were i was really worried about his legs going into the french open you know we saw him play a lot of matches where he came out hot

48:04Matt Roberts: and then just faded actually yeah i didn't think he physically had it in him to be a grinder yeah so i think he's made i guess he's proven he's made strides and this week he came from a

48:15Catherine Whitaker: set down to beat Mazzetti and he came from a set down to beat Tabilo he he showed those qualities that he showed at the French Open as well and in terms of that that fight in those matches and we know he you know he we've seen him be explosive so he he does have these sides to him perhaps it's just a a natural process of figuring it out when he's when he's that young and that new and a bit of fatigue has set in but yeah it is it's I'm finding the whole experience weird it was like it it took me aback when he arrived on the scene I was like who is this guy then I thought okay he's this really explosive player got it and now he's not really been that but he's kept the results

48:59Matt Roberts: going it I found it a very confusing same yeah yeah you've put that really well I I'm very bamboozled but every time I adjust to like okay and the the new reality of Hodah he sort of shapeshifts on me a bit and I don't know how to feel yeah and maybe that's going to be a great quality that he has it's just hard to grasp at the moment got a lot of support in Washington didn't he I think because of the University of Virginia connection if I got that I'm probably going to get a text from Matt Futterman saying saying I've mislabeled the university again but I think he went to uni in Virginia and yeah, he got a lot of support.

49:44Matt Roberts: I should just say, I don't want to, this is his first go around on the ATP tour really and we know he doesn't, or certainly up until fairly recently, he didn't have an agent. He just had his dad and family friends working for him and I'm loathe to sort of advocate for the role of agents because they're mostly, well, I won't finish that sentence. But he had agreed. He had signed up to play Los Cabos this week, Hodar. And then when he had his breakout earlier in the year, Washington presumably made him a better offer. And then he backed out of Los Cabos. They had already announced him in their player field and he took the shinier offer to play Washington, which is a forgivable misstep, I think, in your first year on tour with inexperienced advisors.

50:52Matt Roberts: But I do think that is a misstep. You know, Los Cabos, I think, has the same tournament director as Acapulco and they had given him a wild card earlier in the year. You know, these are reneging on agreements, certainly irritating important people in tennis. It's just you don't want to be doing too much of that, I don't think. And yeah, maybe he does. Maybe he does have a proper agent working with him now. And I can't believe I'm celebrating that. A few months ago, I was like, oh, so lovely. He's only got his dad in the box. And now I'm like, get some IMG bods in there. But if there's anything they are important for, I guess it's advising in that kind of situation.

51:38Matt Roberts: And that's not really the done thing. Let's just stick to our agreement for this year and we can make hay from this point onwards. Other things, stories, players to pick out from the week in Washington? You mentioned Mazzetti, one of Chodar's victims, returning Lorenzo Mazzetti. What's your level of buoyancy, Matt, about comeback Mazzetti?

52:12Catherine Whitaker: It was a little hard to judge. I mean, the first match he played against Arnaudi actually should have been a joint press conference. And Arnaudi was clearly in no fit state to play that match and retired quite quickly into it. And then Mazzetti beat Vukic, lost his way in the second set, but generally looked pretty good, I thought. And then had this incredibly fast start against Hodder, that was really playing well, but then faded, probably to be expected from your first tournament back in some time. interestingly he's got he's changed his service motion not not massively but he after he rocks back on his back leg he used to just throw the ball up from there he now rocks forward again and gets a bit more momentum into the serve and i'm interested whether that's because of the injury to the leg he's trying to sort of get a bit more momentum into the push-ups he's not putting all of his weight through the top of his leg like he used to do, or whether it's to try and get some gains on the serve.

53:20Catherine Whitaker: Perhaps it's a combination of both. But I kind of always like it when players come back from a period away and they've clearly been working on something and you can try and see whether it's going to make a difference. I was reasonably encouraged on his behalf. He looked physically fine in all of his matches and he played quite a lot of good tennis albeit it wasn't very sustained um but just good to have him back really

53:47Matt Roberts: okay a couple of other players to talk about come a couple of other bits of news since our last podcast less than 24 hours ago uh tennis be tennising uh we'll be back in part three to talk about all of that ai is only as powerful as the platform it's built into that's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most.

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55:35Matt Roberts: For Ben Shelton, OK, he got to the quarterfinals, but a three-set loss to Alejandro Tabilo is not what Ben Shelton is looking for, quite frankly. David?

55:45David Law: No, no. And I saw the highlights of that match against Tabilo. I mean, Shelton's another one a little bit like Fritz. When it's not going well, he will usually put up a good fight, and he did, you know. Tabilo was fantastic. I mean, he is quite a creative and explosive player of his own, you know, quite a shot maker and just makes it awkward. But at the same time, you tell me that they're going to be involved in a close match, in a three-set match. I'm expecting Ben Shelton to come out on top of that. So he was in pretty much the best form of his life a year ago, wasn't he? You know, everything happened for him in Canada.

56:29David Law: he had great form coming into the US Open I remember asking him in Australia whether he was playing the best tennis of his career in Australia and he says no I'd still say in the US Open I was playing better and then he got that horrible injury mid-match against Manorino I think and he had to pull out and it was horrible and at the moment he looks like he's searching he's searching for for form because even even some of the wins he's getting he's having to grind and he doesn't want to be doing that really he wants his big game to be flowing and and he's kind of he's athletic around the net he comes to the net a fair bit but he wants like in Australia it seemed like his backhand had found its consistency he felt like he was he knew what he was doing with that shot and then his forehand was just destructive and he was flattening that out a lot at the moment he looks like he's gone back a few steps in terms of confidence and conviction and he's he's just searching um so big big stretch coming up for him i think

57:40Matt Roberts: yeah tough timing for that for for ben shelton to for the sort of searching for his game period

57:47David Law: to have coincided with this well there was such blows window the french and the wimbledon without Alcraz around, you know, to not be at your best. That must really rankle.

58:01Matt Roberts: Yeah, see also Tiafoe. Yeah, yeah.

58:05David Law: I mean, obviously he did have some form and he lost those incredibly close matches against Arnaldi and then Bublik, those two majors. But then he's had an early loss in Washington. So again, it's kind of now or never, not career-wise, but year-wise, he's made it very clear after the US Open he doesn't care too much, which I understand. So you better get cracking. You really need some form and rhythm and momentum. Cruz Hewitt won a match, beat Marcus Garone, lost handily to Alex Domenor in a match that people were very excited about because there's a photo of them from 10 or 15 years ago. anything to say about Cruise Hewitt?

58:54Are we going to get on that hype train?

59:02Anything to say, Catherine? It's such a lovely story, isn't it? People are trying to make him happen. The thing is,

59:11David Law: I can't say I'm excited about him. I mean, good for him. He's sort of hopefully he'll have a good career but I don't I don't automatically think oh right here's a player that we're going to be talking about for years to come at the top end of the game but at the same time having watched him in other juniors before the Wimbledon just gone I wouldn't have thought we would ever see him on the tour you know like he what he didn't look like a a junior player in Grand Slams at all to me and yet he's gone and got a win over Marcus Garan which is quite good going really that um so there's something there you know he's he can hit a serve he's he's he can he's got ground strokes but he looks so young i mean he's what 17 but he looks like a boy i mean out there at the moment he doesn't look really ready for it so it'll be interesting it's an interesting story angle isn't it because you're right there are so many photos of him out there as a tiny little tot playing with Roger Federer and standing next to Alex Diminore and and with obviously Leighton on the court you know it's um it's it's it's kind of too good for words in Australia in that regard but don't know really whether it's fair to think of him as somebody who's going to have a a really significant career because he just doesn't look

1:00:36Matt Roberts: ready to me he's got the celebration ready though hasn't he yes he did he did the um

1:00:43David Law: the the celebration that Leighton Hewitt adopted and kind of called his own uh which was the the Vicht uh which was actually invented by Nicholas Kroon uh Catherine's demonstrating it for our YouTube uh if you'd like to go and watch that um and uh and Mats Valander all the way through his one of his early French Opens used to do that in celebration. And I think Leighton must have seen them do it at some point. Oh, do you think, David? You don't think he's come up with it organically? Don't think so. Which is great. I mean, it's cool. It would have been quite nice if he'd, at the time, really given them the credits.

1:01:22David Law: Sorry, Leighton. I thought you were talking about Cruz. Yeah, Leighton. But no, so I think...

1:01:26Catherine Whitaker: Cruz knew to call it the Vicht or whatever it's called.

1:01:31David Law: He did, yeah. Fair play to him for having that knowledge and giving it a credit. I always liked it as a celebration. I remember Jonas Bjortman doing it against Tim Henman when he knocked Henman out of the Australian Open. And then when Henman got revenge against Bjortman at Davis Cup a couple of weeks later in Birmingham on match point, he hit the match point away, and Henman did the most extravagant one of those in his face. that you can imagine. That was good. That's probably the coolest Tim Hemmonds ever been. It was cool, I have to say. I think I just... No, I don't... No, I'm not going to slag off a 17-year-old.

1:02:20Good luck to him. Good luck to you, Cruz. He's going to be in the running for Sensation of the Day, I reckon. One year.

1:02:29David Law: Catherine's gonna gonna make that a sort of null and void segment of the podcast people are trying to make it a sort of underdog story like do me a favour

1:02:44I think it's a bit like with you David in your Luca Van Asch position it's as much it's not about the individual it's railing against the narrative that I'm expected to absorb with the individual.

1:02:59David Law: Or if I had discovered Van Asch, we'd have been all right with it. No, that's not the situation I'm describing.

1:03:09Matt Roberts: Just quickly, I know we mentioned both of them on yesterday's podcast, but Art of Feast and Jack Draper are sort of ongoing sick men of Europe on the ATP tour. You know, Washington was kind of a continuation of their respective stories. Feast took to the court, ended up calling for the physio mid-match against Rafael Hoda and ended up not really being able to make too much of a match of it from that point onwards. Did look like the hip injury that has been plaguing him long term and it looks like he's going to be playing through David. but is very much an ever-present in his career. And with Jack Draper, we had the continuation of this pattern where he rocks up at these events and is practicing well and looks raring to go.

1:04:13Matt Roberts: And then he withdraws pretty much on the eve of the tournament. We had it with Wimbledon. We've got it now with Washington. We had it with Queens, didn't we, before Wimbledon? okay not quite on the eve of it but um that is the pattern that's developing he's getting a real hammering for it for online which i really feel for him about um yeah i in short i remain very worried about both artifice and and jack draper quite frankly and and not hugely optimistic about

1:04:48David Law: either of them no and the problem is they've both had the big layoff the big time out to rest these respective injuries they've done all the things that you're supposed to do it's not like they've just impetuously or selfishly sort of gone out and played and recklessly said i can do it anyway or or just been too impatient they've gone out and they've tried to do all the right things and they've taken several months off and yet these conditions are still flaring up. And I mean, talking about Taylor Fritz earlier, I don't want a career of Jack Draper and Art of Feast where you're constantly asking them about how it's feeling today and them giving you an update that something is in their mind all the time.

1:05:40And that may just be what ends up being the case

1:05:42David Law: with the arm injury for Draper and the hip stroke back for Feast. But ultimately, they are not going to achieve their goals if they're in that condition. They need to be able to get better somehow. Hopefully, there are things that they can sort of play through and have treated along the way. And maybe they'll... You know, the arm thing for Draper, he seems pretty emphatic, a bit like Fritz, that eventually the work he's doing and the balance that he gets should pay off for him. I'm less sure about Feast because he seems less sure. There seems to be less conviction in terms of what's happening and why with his condition.

1:06:32But, yeah, I guess we just have to go tournament to tournament

1:06:37David Law: at the moment and watch them, but it's such a shame. They're such young, exciting players, so good for the game. And yet we have these massive question marks over them every time they take to the court.

1:06:50Matt Roberts: Yeah, I think that's it, isn't it? It's the long layoffs they've both had. I mean, in Jack Draper's case, Matt, I'm like, you've basically had a year off. Like, what's going to change in a week? Like, if your arm's not okay to play at the top level now, why would it be in a week's time? I mean, we'll find out today, won't we? He was due to play last night against Terence Atman, but rain in Montreal, it's been delayed to today. And I think he's going to take to the court to that match regardless of what physical and mental state he's in because he'll be aware of this reputation he's developing of pulling out of these tournaments right on the eve of them.

1:07:39Matt Roberts: I hope he's not making decisions, though,

1:07:41Catherine Whitaker: based on any kind of reputation he might be having. It's hard. There's a lot of pressure.

1:07:48Matt Roberts: I think there's sponsor pressure. you know the big Vorori deal happened coincided pretty much exactly with this with this injury barely played since his glitzy signing to you know he's the biggest sponsorship outlay they've ever had I think and that is absolutely not his fault but this stuff comes with pressure and I don't think anybody is completely impervious to those.

1:08:28Catherine Whitaker: No, no. I mean, I'd have thought that he was probably feeling a pressure to play when Andy Murray had gone all the way out to Washington as well and he didn't play there. I'm very worried about Draper, to be honest. It just seems that he gets to a point where the load is too much and he has to pull out or he's worried about making it worse and having a setback. I imagine there's a lot of anxiety he's feeling about trying to come back and not make it worse. He's changed his strings. He's changed his serve. I believe he's hitting with a new racket. like he's tried everything and hasn't been able to play more than one or two matches and barely playing tournaments and yeah it it's it's really worrying i think i think for draper feese i'm very worried as well i feel a bit i i sort of i let myself get more excited about feese i'm a bit like the Alcaraz gif at the World Cup.

1:09:40Catherine Whitaker: I'm celebrating, oh, Feast, he's back. Yes, Feast. And then suddenly the crashing reality of, oh, VAR. Yeah. I don't even get my hopes up about Draper. No, Draper, I'm just down about Draper at the moment. Whereas with Feast. There's no Alcaraz gif for that. No, there's been these little moments with Feast, but maybe the reality is just as tough for him. Yeah. Two of the most exciting players in the world at the start of last year and we've barely seen them. Such a bummer.

1:10:20Matt Roberts: Yeah. Such a bummer. Emma Adekarni is out at the US Open. No great surprise. I mean, she broke her leg but confirmation that she's out of the US Open. and she's back on the practice court, isn't she? I saw her doing some service drills in a chair. But yeah, her comeback is definitely not looking imminent for her. I think it's going to be a long road. And we've also, just in the last 24 hours, had confirmation that Serena and Venus Williams have taken a doubles wildcard into Cincinnati. And Venus also has taken a singles wildcard in, but no sign of that for Serena yet although I'll rinse and repeat what I said on yesterday's show I think she wants her own announcement for these things so I don't think the fact that there's been no announcement yet necessarily rules anything out Venus has also been added to the US Open mixed doubles list which has grown even longer some even more hilarious names and combinations on there.

1:11:32Who approached who? Tatiana Maria and Valentin Bachero. It's incredible. I'm having a mind blank on who Venus Williams is playing with. It's someone random. Bublik.

1:11:49There's another bloke on there. I think it's a bloke, Rhys something, that I have never heard of. never

1:11:55David Law: Venus has ditched a Pelka there's Karen Hashanov and Zachary isn't it god it's weird but fun and there's a few more doubles teams doubles specialists yes

1:12:16Catherine Whitaker: Dabrowski, Heliavara I mean they'd be good fun I guess yeah I mean again they're going to be in qualifying I think if they're lucky so they've added all these names and they've listed them still in combined singles ranking order and still Preston Stearns is at the bottom below this Rhys bloke yep Rhys is a woman

1:12:48it's a man actually Derek it's a woman actually Derek

1:12:58because Rhys is playing with Michael Zhang

1:13:06look it only underlines my point who are these people I didn't catch it when you said it I had to bring up the list so do you think Rhys is the regular partner of Preston Sterns and they got together and we're like this is we need we need some help here let's divide and conquer uh okay

1:13:31that is my favorite ever clip on the internet thank you for reminding me of that matt okay uh we'll be back on friday uh with our next opportunity to update you on random people that have entered the us open mixed doubles i already can't wait we'll also be back tomorrow Wednesday at 8pm live on YouTube if you want to join us live for Friends of the Tennis Podcast in our What to Do About Doubles show with Pam Shriver. David said, oh, we'd better remind Pam yesterday. So we reminded Pam and she was like, yeah, I know, it's in my diary. I felt

1:14:11David Law: suitably ticked off.

1:14:15So Pam is in. Double confirmed. Pam will be joining us for that show where we will discuss and debate

1:14:22Matt Roberts: the proposed changes by the ATP and our own proposals and thoughts about what on earth to do about the doubles game for the good of the sport generally so that'll be 8pm on YouTube tomorrow up as a podcast as well if you'd like to become a friend of the tennis podcast and get access to that show then of course the link is in our show notes we have our mascots Bodie, Maisie and Roger We have our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. No shout outs today because this is kind of a bonus show, really, isn't it? But we'll be back on Friday and so will shout outs. We are part of the Athletic Podcast Network.

1:15:02Thank you for listening and we'll speak to you soon.

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