What’s happened since Wimbledon ‘26?

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1:22Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast, back on this fine Monday morning, because if we know anything, it is that tennis never stops. David Law is here, the Tom Cruise of the tennis world, uniting the world through the power of your voice and sport, David.

1:43David Law: Right, yes, he's certainly my era. I did look at him on that thing last night and think, crikey, how do you look like that when you're about 60? But anyway, I think that's what he was trying to achieve Magic, David, it's just magic Yeah Absolutely Matt Roberts is here Spanish for six weeks and he wins a World Cup Guys, I recommend it It's pretty good winning the World Cup Oh no, Matt So fucking smug Okay Shall we talk about Carlos Alcaraz at the World Cup? Shall we stay on the World Cup just for a minute? Because we do have, well, actually, there were quite a lot of tennis players there. Did we play spot the tennis person in the crowd?

2:30I did. Who've we got? Well, Alcaraz was on the pitch.

2:39Matt Roberts: Both before and after. before in his suit with the trophy and afterwards in his friends and family bib, which I quite enjoyed. Friends and family, like a photographer's bib at a Grand Slam. I really enjoyed that, yeah. Wrist support on. When I saw him holding the cabinet containing the trophy, I thought, great, this is a really good sign for the Alcaraz wrist. But then later saw that he was wearing just, it looks like a little sweatband, doesn't it? but it's not nothing. This is a guy that supposedly had the all clear and is targeting a Cincinnati comeback.

3:21David Law: Have we finished to spot the tennis player in the crowd? No, no, I was just trying to make it legit, David. I was just trying to do some tennis analysis. Okay, because I haven't got any others, so I'm relying on you two. Serena Williams was there. Okay. I must have been out of the room at that point, yeah.

3:39Catherine Whitaker: This next guy didn't get shown on telly, I don't think, but I've seen on Instagram that he was there, Felix Auger-Aliassime. Oh, I also saw on Instagram that Anna Kalinskaya was there. Oh, OK. She certainly posted a picture of the pitch. Right. Rafa Hodda was there. Oh, very good. Very good. Anyone else? This goes Sir Rundalo. The camera's not picking these out, is it? No. No. Right. Serena got picked out. Yeah, Serena was picked out. Surundalo. Which Surundalo? Both Surundalos? Francisco only, I believe. Juan Manuel was in a tournament, I'll have you now. The better Surundalo was playing tennis while the crap Surundalo was faffing around at the World Cup final.

4:33Carlos Alcraz has given us the gif of all time. I'm absolutely obsessed with it thank you very much Carlos Alcaraz celebrating the disallowed goal feeling the full range of emotions in the space of one gif thank you Carlos

4:50Matt Roberts: anything else to say about the World Cup final should we should we have third fourth place playoffs at Grand Slams should we have hydration break I suppose we do have hydration breaks. We do have those. Should we have halftime shows? Should there be an opportunity for Chris Martin to pop up with the children's choir more often? Everyone was moaning about the final starting like eight minutes past the hour, which was annoying. But at the same time, I was like, oh, this is not that bad, really, compared to tennis advertised start times. Matt, it's spreading to other sports. I know. It's bad. Shocking.

5:3427-minute halftime break.

5:37David Law: I quite enjoyed that. Everybody's slagging it off. I really quite enjoyed it.

5:42Matt Roberts: You enjoyed the fact of the break or you enjoyed the entertainment that was provided to you during that break? I enjoyed the entertainment, yeah. Did you? What were your highlights?

5:49David Law: I don't know. I just thought it was jolly and fun. And then you got Wayne Rooney calling it. Crap, that was also fun. But then all the people who follow football were, like, complaining about the whole thing. Maybe I'm just used to the NFL. I didn't mind it. It was fine. I didn't mind the concept of a halftime show, but I do think it was quite crap as halftime show entertainment goes.

6:15Matt Roberts: Didn't you? I mean, you've seen NFL halftime shows. You know, Rihanna are on the pods. I don't know what's good and what isn't, Catherine, in, like, other people's views. I just know I liked it. I enjoyed it. Well, I'm glad you liked it. I'm glad people have gotten joy from it. I quite enjoyed Ronaldo just grinning. Ronaldo and Ronaldinho popping up, escorting Madonna out onto the pitch. Yeah, that was funny. Yeah, OK. Well, RIP the World Cup. It was fun. Enjoy your joy, Matt. And Carlos Alcaraz. Matt and Carlos Alcaraz, enjoy your joy. While we're on non-tennis things, it's been wedding season in the tennis world.

7:06Matt Roberts: Are you up on this, David? You've been keeping track on this?

7:09David Law: I've got a gist of what's gone on, and I've read the agenda, yeah. Yeah. What weddings are you aware of having happened? Bolter. Katie Bolter and Alex de Menor. Yeah. Okay, maybe I'm not as up on it as I thought. What are the others? Who did you think she was marrying? she was getting married to dimming all she still is i mean she already has yes there was quite a lot of consternation including from me when their wedding photos dropped and it appeared that they'd got married over wimbledon finals weekend uh which is pretty tin pot for the uh for the world number five uh but it turned out that that was a sort of last

7:54Matt Roberts: minute pre-ceremony that was organised in order that certain family members would be able to attend and actually there's a bigger more official ceremony later maybe that's already happened but it certainly didn't take place over over Wimbledon finals weekend uh we had Dario Kazakina David and Natalia Zabiako in Greece yes I saw some tweets from Kazakina so I knew there was something up because she was saying it was a great day or something. So, cool. Yeah, they did something quite kinky with blindfolds and a mirror during the ceremony. Cool. Lots of tennis players present at that wedding. Mirand Draver seemed to be having a lovely time.

8:44Diana Kassikina is massively popular on the tour, isn't she?

8:47Matt Roberts: Yes. I think that would have been an invite that a lot of people would have wanted to land on their front mat, definitely. We had Tommy Paul and Paige Lorenz, David, and quite a lot of associated content because a lot of tennis players attended this one. Francis Tiafoe, Rylea Pelker. Yes, they were all doing the mat in Chicago role, weren't they? Instagram content. They're all sort of turning up and having a role like Matt did in Chicago. I think that's quite American. I'll let Matt confirm. But I think that's quite a thing with American weddings. I mean, I've only been to one. I wouldn't consider myself an expert.

9:32I was a groomsman.

9:34Matt Roberts: But you were sort of given... That's it. Groomsmen, that's what they all were. There were a lot of official activities and designations.

9:42David Law: Was Riley a pelker on any of the photos? because I didn't see him.

9:47Matt Roberts: Yeah.

9:48David Law: Was he stood up? Because I was thinking, I mean, you know, I sometimes get laughed at for making photos look a bit lopsided and I'm thinking, where do you put him?

10:00Matt Roberts: He's on the end a lot, I would say. Right. But he's very much, very much there. Okay. Yeah, it looked like a good time was had by everybody. My final submission is Ludmilla Samsonova. Seems to have got married. Right. Yes. Congratulations, one and all. Also Asia Mohammed. Oh, very good. Okay. Bernarda Perra.

10:26David Law: Jesus, that really is a lot, isn't it? Ever King, I believe, as well. How do you find this stuff out? What if you're friends with all of these people? I presume some awkward decisions have had to be made. Whose wedding did Priscilla Hon go to? presumably she was invited to them all I reckon she's gone Kasekina yeah out of that lot I think Kasekina

10:50Matt Roberts: anyone else Matt? those are all the ones I know about how deep in the barrel are we scraping? I saw that Linda Noskova was a bridesmaid was that at Samsonova's? I'm not sure it started to get it got unclear to me which wedding was which I didn't see anything beyond Ludmilla Samsonov's dress, Matt. I'll leave it at that. I see, I have not seen that. Oh, OK. Sounds like we've done that thing of checking the same Instagram account and each seeing different things again. Yeah.

11:24David Law: I didn't even know she'd got a social media account. The last time I heard about her social media was that she avoided it so she didn't know she was playing next. Well, I think it's safe to say she's not in a tournament at this present time. Yeah. Are you ready for us to move on, David? Oh, no, I'm still absolutely blown away by how many you seem to know about. I mean, it amuses me just how many they crowbar into this period of the calendar, which makes total sense, of course, because the tennis world is a bloody nightmare. But how do you know about them all? I just...

12:03Matt Roberts: The internet, David. I'm telling you, it's going to be big. I know, but I'm on the internet and I've not seen hardly any of this stuff. Maybe they're not on the Albion page.

12:15Right, shall we head to Gestade and the ATP 250 event

12:21Matt Roberts: that has been happening there this week, won by Stefanos Sitsipas. Let's party like it's 2019. He beat Raphael Collignon 6-4, 6-7, 6-3 in the final, which had an amazing crowd, an amazing atmosphere. I know you two both watched this and had a grand old time. 2019 is obviously exaggerating for effect, but it is Stefano Sitsapas' first title since Dubai 2025. And if you remember, I was remembering the pod that we did at the time then. Like, even by that point, that had become a surprise and an outlier of a result in terms of Stefano Sitsapas' recent career. Like this is a, okay, it's an ATP 250, English start on clay the week after Wimbledon during a period of the calendar when, let's face it, we think it's all pretty inconsequential.

13:16Matt Roberts: But for Stefanos Sitzapaz, David, this feels like a very big deal right now.

13:23David Law: Yeah, it's funny when you mention the Dubai one, my recollection of our podcast after that was one of real excitement at the way he'd suddenly started playing again. and it's kind of, this is the, it's still there. We've got this new start and a reboot and I really expected big things and it just went completely the other way and he just didn't reproduce that at all. It's a little bit like how Medvedev played that incredible Indian Wells this year and then just didn't really do much after it. But this one for Sitsapas, my overriding feeling is just one of relief just to see him happy on a tennis court again.

14:04You know, he did play very well. I mean, I've been to the tournaments in Gisard several times, many times, and it's another one sort of, I don't know how high the altitude is, but it is thin air. It's sort of, it's beautiful. It's a beautiful place to be. You feel really revitalised going there. but it is like you say it's not a massive deal in the sort of landscape of tennis because of where it is you almost need to put that tournament in the spring but just seeing him

14:43David Law: finally holding the trophy at the end, like the moment after match point, his arms in the air realising he hasn't got to lose this week he hasn't got to try to find it anymore, he's done it he's been the best player in the draw he's the one left standing the crowd are lauding him and there's no dad in the crowd just being panned to and shouting and taking over the moment and i just thought i don't know whether this leads to anything for stefano sissipas but But I find his kind of downturn to, what, 85 in the world he is now, and that's going up a couple of places, when his contemporary, Alexander Zverev, I always think of those two in the same breath, who he used to get the better off all the time is two in the world.

15:35And I just find it so sad that Sidsapas hasn't been able to stay up there in that way. But maybe this will be the start of something. But even if it's not, I'm pleased for one week to be able to just have a sigh of relief and see him looking kind of like, more like he used to and happy. and given the number of times already he's made the decision to stand on his own two feet and

16:02Matt Roberts: try and make a career of things without his dad and the number of times that's proved too hard because of you know the way he's been conditioned by his dad and his parents and and he's ended up going back to them I feel like this is just significant for him in terms of proof that he can he can do it without his dad and whatever that means for his results in the remainder of his career I do firmly believe that is the best thing for him as a human being in terms of his happiness and his sort of wholeness as a human being so I yeah I'm really relieved from that perspective that I think it might provide some of the confirmation that he needs that he's you know he's capable of this and this is this is the right decision that he is he has made Matt

16:55Catherine Whitaker: yeah I really hope so I had the I had the same thoughts and as you said so soon into that decision to to sort of go it alone or at least go it without his dad he had a he had a coach with him there I think from the Moratoglu Academy um yeah hopefully he does get that validation and And I really like David's word revitalize. Like I like the idea of there being some revitalization and okay, that it's a long way to go before he's, he's back to anything like he was really. But I think it's an example of how tournaments can mean different things to different people. And, you know, I think for someone like Sitsapas to win this title at this time of year, it can mean a lot more than say for someone who is already sort of on the right path and it's just adding a adding a clay court 250 after Wimbledon to their to their profile I think there is genuine meaning in this for for Sitsapas and he did not have it easy all tournament he had to win a final set tie break against Jerome Kim that was a match that was spread over two days he needed three sets to beat Rinder Kinesh three sets to beat Shevchenko and then three sets again to beat Collignon in the final so so many long matches and for a guy who has also had a lot of physical issues in the last 18 months or so with his back and he did appear to be at the end physically right at the end of this match he was sort of pointing to something that i think was hurting and he was very keen to to stress how he was looking forward to his days off but like at least the body held up for for those matches that he that he had to get through and yeah he was the better player in the final he could have lost it sorry he could have won it in straight sets.

18:38Catherine Whitaker: He was pressing to win it in straight sets and Conignon did a good job to push it to a third, but Sitsapas really did dominate that third set. And yeah, some reminders in there of what he can do, particularly on a clay court. You know, Conignon is a guy with a big forehand and yet I thought Sitsapas' forehand was the bigger shot, you know, and doing more damage. And he's a great clay court. He has been and would love to see him get back to something close to where he was at least, and this feels like a first step to that.

19:18Matt Roberts: He was disappointed that there was no cow, David. He thought that everyone had got a cow, but actually that was a Roger Federer-specific event with Juliet back in the day. Someone get Stefanos Sitzep as a cow.

19:35David Law: 2003. I was there 23 years ago. So, I mean, Stefano Sissipas was a tiny little boy at that time.

19:45Matt Roberts: And no cows have been presented in the meantime? I can't recall one. Yeah. Yeah, okay. The next year, because then Federer won Wimbledon again the next year, and again he then went to Gestade,

20:04David Law: I think that might have been the last year he went to start straight after Wimbledon. He got presented with a massive horn, Swiss horn. It was enormous. I mean, like it was a sort of court-width length horn. And they tried to get him to blow it and make a sound out of it. And he really, he couldn't do it. Well, I bet he's grateful that was before the age of memes.

20:34Yeah. OK, so the gifts are only for Roger Federer. It doesn't matter how many times Sitsa passed Winskestad, he won't be getting a cow or a horn. On to UMAG, the ATP 250 there. David had a lovely time watching the UMAG final. Another nostalgic event for David. I think David secretly loves this weird two-week period of the calendar that I always slag off. Well, I've certainly got history with it. I mean, and Gustav and Umag used to be back-to-back weeks. And look, if they hadn't been in 2000, the whole history of my life would look very different because I would not have met my wife because I went to the Gustav tournament.

21:20It rained solidly for five days. And on Friday, we were still playing the first round. And we finished the tournament on Tuesday, the following week. And so I got to Umag on a flight via Milan in which I ended up having to stay in an airport hotel overnight. And I got to Umag on Wednesday. So they were halfway through the tournament. I was supposed to get there on like Sunday night.

21:51David Law: And so I managed to meet my wife on the Thursday, not knowing that she would become my wife, and then sort of, you know, embark on a relationship. if who'd have thought it? And in 2000... Embark on a relationship.

22:09That's not how I bought the dates or the time. What a romantic. Would you like to embark on a relationship? 26 years on. Very keen to get Garner's reaction to that. She would laugh. And no doubt she'll be given the chance after this show. But, yeah, so I don't know. We probably wouldn't be sat here if they'd have had them in the same weeks. But they changed that. And so now they're in the same week. And there I was. Think of all the relationships that aren't being embarked upon. I know. Because the calendar has changed.

22:50David Law: I've often thought that. The sliding doors of life in the tennis world. David tell us about the Umag final and the title won by Daniel Merida he beat Demir Jumher

23:04Matt Roberts: in the final for his first career title he's a name that I'm hearing more and more like I've sort of I've mentally got him circled as like I should know more about him than I than I do because he seems to be becoming a bit of a thing like I need to know more about him than just he used to have some unusual hair. Yes, he used to have peroxide blonde hair. I mean, we're only talking two months ago. Yeah. So he's quickly got rid of that because he's now dark-haired, still very short hair, and this is clearly his natural hair because, you know, you can just tell. I don't think anyone has natural peroxide.

23:47Imagine if you did. perhaps he predicted that Mira Andreva would win the French Open or something no because he maybe it was Australian Open linked because there was a tournament in the spring when he first came to my attention it was kind of like the same time that Raphael Hodder was winning his first titles and Merida you know he was a bit of a new name on me but he was a really kind of spiky competitor and he got a bit about him and he kept winning these matches with ridiculous comebacks and and yeah he's kind of kept it up and his ranking has really shot up and he was playing in this final and and he was playing Juma who's who's from Bosnia so from the the Balkans region there was definitely some support for him I think through that um but merida just handled everything really well um and you know he just he just looks like a really good player on clay in particular i don't know how how well his there's a few players that you know when we get onto the hard courts him and burashaga and uh is it tarante um who've all sort of shot out the blue in this clay court season this spring and and had had results but But whether they can back, you know, you can see them sort of trying to, you know, they'll all be in Kitspool or wherever they go next week, you know, for more clay, I think.

25:21And actually, it was one of the things I quite liked about Sitsipas talking about the American summer. He wasn't talking about next week's clay court tournaments, you know, and I think that that's quite important. But Merida's, you know, that tournament, I mean, I have such fond memories of it because I went there three years in a row in Umag and it's a beautiful centre court. they play all the matches sort of 5pm and after. You'd love it, Catherine. The only thing is you wouldn't like the reason for it, which is the heat. I mean, the heat is so extreme that they kind of have to play in the evening every single day.

25:55But yeah. If I can lie by a pool, David. Oh, they do a lot of that there, yeah.

26:00Matt Roberts: I can, during the day, during the heat of the day. That's fine. If there's a body of water that I can immerse myself in. Merida was talking about having embarked on his own relationship a couple of years ago, and his girlfriend, he says, had been to him to all the sort of futures and the rubbish events that he'd had to go to for his ranking points, and she was there in the crowd absolutely weeping with happiness, you know, an emotion for him. It was quite sweet.

26:37Catherine Whitaker: That is lovely. It's always interesting with these tournaments that don't really fit into the narrative of the season. And it's real whiplash going from the grass court season back to clay for a little bit. And I think there's totally points to be made about that. But as David's described there and got across, like the emotion of the fans at these events, Like you would never want to, on the one hand, take those events away from them either. Because as you said, Catherine, the crowd in Gestalt for that final was fantastic. What a lovely court, packed to the rafters. Umag, I watched Jumho win an almost four hour three set match against Arnaldi, who is back to playing epics on the clay.

27:30Catherine Whitaker: and like the whole as mary corno would say joint was going crazy for this match and it's like that's that's their tennis that's the tennis that they get to see and it's very special to them and it does come across when you watch these matches it's just that no one's really got the bandwidth right now in the in the wider tennis and sporting world so i'm always torn when watching these sorts of events um and just the other point to make on merida is how interesting it is i think that there is this now this younger crop of spanish players coming through i mean it was at the it was at the davis cup last year where they got to the final they didn't have carlos alcaraz they don't pick davidovic for kina and they were reliant on that sort of intergeneration of karenio buster and who never really pushed on.

28:24Catherine Whitaker: Obviously, Cogna Busta had a very good career, but it feels suddenly like there's this group of young Spanish players, obviously Alcaraz at the top of them, but with Jodar, Landaluthe and Merida, particularly on clay, that they've got a bit of a pack now. And it would be interesting to see from a Davis Cup perspective whether they can, because Alcaraz has said he really wants to win that. He's made it a goal. It'll be interesting to see whether there's enough of a cohort and a collective there that can get behind the Davis Cup and maybe push Italy because it just feels like Italy are going to win that tournament with whatever team they roll out over the next few years.

29:05Catherine Whitaker: I feel like Spanish tennis on the men's side is just gathering a little bit of momentum with a group of players that it hasn't had for quite a while. They could do with somebody else that could play doubles with Marcel Granollas, couldn't they? Because I'm not sure Carlos Alcaraz is that good at that. Anyone in fresh for the singles? Yeah. Last ATP event for the week, Borschtad, another clay court at 250, won by Andre Rublev. He beat Luciano Darderi, 6-4, 6-3. Kind of echoes of sit to pass here. Like it's a week for the lost gen. Yeah, it's like a far less extreme example, I suppose, of Tsitsipas.

29:59Catherine Whitaker: I think he also won his last title in the Middle East swing last year. It had been a long gap. They're both on a streak of picking up at least one title for a very long time. I think eight or nine years in a row that they've won titles, which we shouldn't overlook, you know, winning a title on the ATP Tour, that's a very, very high level that they've been playing at. It's just that there's been a drop-off. And obviously for Tsitsipas, that's been a huge drop-off. For Rublev, it's been less extreme. He's kept his ranking in around the top 20, hasn't he? And he's kept winning matches at most tournaments he's played.

30:36But, yeah, he's no longer the consistent top 10 player that he was for quite a while.

30:43Catherine Whitaker: And yeah, nice to see him pick up a title. You said 2019, Catherine. I feel like it's very, I don't know, like 2022, especially with the women's results we've had this week as well and the players involved. Like there has been that sort of throwback feel. These players who used to be competing for Masters and Slams and all that kind of stuff, they've now been sort of relegated to this tier, but it's nice that they're at least having success.

31:12Matt Roberts: Yeah, and look, it's a very different situation with Rublev, but I do think for him as well, it's a bit of a proof of concept, this result, because he's doing something quite drastic too. Not many people are paying attention to it because, honestly, he's not that relevant anymore, but he's doing something to at least try and change that, to give it a go. I went to one of his press conferences at Roland Garros, I think after his third round win, and there weren't many of us in there and ended up sort of just having a chat with him about this and how he is trying to diversify his game. He's trying to add, and he's like, this might make me worse.

32:00Matt Roberts: This might lead to no gains whatsoever, but if I don't try, I'll never know. I can't stay still as a tennis player and just hit my big forehand anymore. That doesn't cut it. And he's prepared to go backwards just to find out. So I think that's quite a brave thing to do at his stage of career. And, yeah, I'm pleased for him. I'm pleased for Andrei Roblev.

32:33David Law: Yeah, I feel the same. And, I mean, he sort of got to a final against Artifis in Barcelona. But, again, you know, that ended up being regarded as Fises' resurgence, especially by me. But, you know, I just want to see these guys get some happiness from time to time. So these tournaments really do help in that regard when not everybody's there. You haven't got to run into Yannick Sinner this week. You can be the guy. And they were.

33:08Matt Roberts: Yeah, that was a really powerful line you said about Sitsapasa earlier, like the relief of, oh, I don't have to lose this week because your default is kind of waiting for the loss to come, hoping it comes later rather than sooner. But it's almost certainly coming. And that is the brutality of the sport. OK, that is it for Nice High Note to end the men's section on. We're going to take a break. We'll be back with the women's results from this week in just a moment.

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35:51Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast. Two WTA 250 events took place this week. We only have a winner from one of them, the WTA 250 in Iasi, Romania. The final of that has been delayed until today, Maya Sharif against Paola Bedossa. So we don't have the result from that. We do know, though, that this is a great little, well, to use your word, David, revitalised period of Paola Badosa's career. I mean, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised because when she's fit, we know what a tennis player she is. But I guess I'm surprised that she spent a few weeks now being entirely fit, seemingly.

36:40Matt Roberts: and I don't know whether to get excited about that in terms of the future. I don't know how much of an exception it is, but it's lovely to see for her.

36:52David Law: Yeah, she is a player who I still think if she can stay fit can be a real disruptor for other big players. I don't see her. I think her best tennis is probably behind her because of the way she had, she would have had a continuous period of good health in the past that got her to the ranking. Was she number two in the world at one stage? You know, I don't see that happening again. I'd be surprised if she won a Grand Slam title, for instance, or reached a final. But she's also got a game that a lot of people don't like playing against. You know, on a given day, she can beat big names. And again, she's had so much misery due to this chronic back problem, that if she gets happiness from periods of the calendar like this, that's enough for me.

37:48I don't want to see these players always sad on the final day of a tournament. And I realise that they accept that losing is part of the sport and you do more losing than you do winning, even if you're the very best. Well, maybe there's one or two. Sinner doesn't lose very often, does he? But, you know, even he had that misery in Paris. But Bados has gone through a lot. And so, you know, I know she hasn't won this title yet. And it'll be interesting to see what does happen in this final. But again, good result, though. And I should say, I do think she should have been disqualified this week.

38:25Catherine Whitaker: Did you see this incident where she chucked her racket after missing a smash and she sort of turned round and threw the racket and it landed, well, I mean, in the crowd, basically, in a sort of hedge just in front of the seats. Yeah. She threw it hard and, yeah, I really do think that, okay, it didn't end up hitting anyone, but that was a clear example of how it was reckless and put people in harm's way. And I do think that's a prime example of what I think the sport should be cracking down on to try and stop the events where people do get harmed from reckless throwing of rackets or hitting the balls.

39:15It would be so easy to stop it from happening. I mean, it would still happen like once every few years and it would be a massive deal. You know, somebody just totally losing their heads. But it's happening with the frequency that it's happening because there are no consequences for it. Like it's, yeah, it would be so easy to stop this and it feels like they're waiting for something really bad to happen

39:42Matt Roberts: before they properly crack down on it. It's, yeah, it's a mystery, mystery to me, to be honest. In Athens this week, the WTA 250 event there has been won by Barbora Krejcikova, beating home player Maria Sakharie in the final. A big week for the Greeks, with Sakharie reaching a final and Sitsapas winning a title. But a bigger week for Barbora Krejcikova, David, who has erupted again. She sure has. I watched her beat Clara Towson in the semifinals. Of course you did. It was good, this. It was because it didn't look like it was going to be much of a match. you know that Towson has not been having the best of times and Krishikov was just comfortably winning this she was a set in a break up she was serving for the match then she loses a serve and then it becomes a bit of an ordeal and she wins it in three um but all the way through it and including the final which which was a pretty tense final from Krishikov because she had a lot to deal with you know Zachary had a packed house there for her everything she did was just cheered to the rafters it was great you know great atmosphere again I'm pleased to see Zachary in a final having a good time winning five matches and you know we'll get into the final and having to win all those matches to get there and having a home crowd but Krachika's having to sort of deal with people applauding her missing her first serve you know when she's closing in on the first set and things like that and then quite a delay while the crowd calmed down and and she handled it all she won the match but what i loved about krisikova all the way through the the matches that i was seeing is just this this look of excitement in her face this hunger this freshness you know she she's looked jaded by the injuries over the years to me in recent times she's not looked again where this seems to be a theme of the show she's not looked happy for a long time when all the injuries were going on as though this god this is such a struggle this tennis circuit and suddenly that looks like it's lifted even when she lost to mukova at wimbledon there was her reaction was one of well that was a great match to be part of i you know i enjoyed it playing mukova playing like that and me trying to take her on you know the whole thing has changed and i mean go and listen to the the interview Catherine and Matt did with her on Tennis Podcast Meets, and you'll just hear somebody who's so different to the average tennis player and average person on the circuit, and she's fascinating.

42:24And I think she's kind of at peace a little bit because she's already done loads in the sport, but she's finally getting a run of health and can have a go at it. And I sort of looked at her in this draw, this 250 week after women, and I'm thinking, crikey, I wonder if she has any trouble getting up for this, you know given that she's been so far above it in her career but not a bit of it she was loving that crowd and loving the environment an interview incidentally where matt told barbora creed she could have about the concept of dormant volcanoes and explained to her that she is one i love the idea that that she might be going around saying i've erupted check me out there was this weird guy at wimbledon who called me a dormant volcano and maybe he was onto something yeah look i i agree with david i think having having kraychikova again at least back to this

43:26Catherine Whitaker: to this level where she's fit and you know she pushed mukova at wimbledon who went on to to win uh to reach the final like i i think krejikova's level was was really high through that tournament and now she's won a wta title again and just having her as a character on the tour is so fascinating because she is different because she is a character she's not going to take it personally if if the crowd's against her but she's gonna she's gonna enjoy it and be up for it and she's a kind of quite low key character who enjoys big stages not in a way that you necessarily think of carlos alcaraz enjoying a big stage and owning it but just that just that quiet confidence that she has in herself and her own game and knowing how good she can be she said in that interview to us i believe i can be anyone still these stages bring out the best in her and And the more times we get to see her in these sorts of matches, the better, really.

44:30Catherine Whitaker: And yeah, in the final, she was down in both sets, wasn't she? It was a very, it was a very Zachary experience. Four went up in the first set, lost it, break up in the second and lost it. But Craig Chicover closed the match well. And I enjoyed this tournament. It was the first time that the WTA had been in Athens since 1990. and there was significance for Zachary because her mother had reached the final in Athens when the event was played in 1986 there. So 40 years since her mother had been in the final, Zachary got there and she really understood the significance of that and took a lot of meaning from it.

45:10Catherine Whitaker: And it's also the venue that hosted the Athens Olympic tennis back in 2004, which is always just nice to think about those venues still being used for good in the sport. So, yeah, I think it was a really successful week with a great runner-up story and a great champion story as well.

45:32Matt Roberts: Just on that runners-up story and the gestard Sitsapas story, you don't have many totally bum predictions on your books, Matt. There aren't many Christina Pliskovis and foregone conclusions lurking in your closet. But your big Greek prediction is a standout. Yeah, what did I say? That they both win a slam in... I can't remember whether I said it at the end of 2021 going into 2022 or the end of 2022 going into 2023. I think it was the end of 2022 going into 2023. Either way, hasn't planned out. Can't even do the Gestalt Athens double Does this week No, let's not go there No, okay No, no, no Look, it was just an opportunity for me to bring it up again No, that's fine I'm always bringing up David's skeletons

46:37David Law: That's true If you made this at the end of 2022 Didn't Sitsapas reach the final of the Australian Open in 2023? Yeah, Matt was feeling good. I think it might have been the end of 2021, though, because that was when Sackery had reached a couple of Grandstand semifinals that year. Sitsapas had been in the French Open final. Thank you, David, for trying to rescue it, but it was. I can't. It's bad. I do think it shows, though, well, just how far they've fallen. that kind of, you know, they were knocking on the door of these achievements and we were probably giving you stick about them not having done it.

47:20David Law: And here we are years later and that seems like, blimey hell, they were so close. Well, Sitsipa's certainly there.

47:28Matt Roberts: Just while we're on the subject of bad predictions, David, you've got a new Jasmine Paolini, it seems. You've got to stop singling people out as a good draw. Yes. Or maybe keep going and it's the best thing that can happen to a player's career.

47:44David Law: Yeah, well, I mean, she sent me a thank you note. Or at least she should have done. Sydney and Krause. Sydney and Krause, who, when we were looking for people who could be a good, the best draw at Wimbledon for Serena Williams, I picked out Sydney and Krause. That was a very grass court specific thing, though, wasn't it, David? Yeah, that's a good point, Matt. She's only gone and won on clay in Kitsbiel. Yeah, you were specifically looking at her.

48:15Catherine Whitaker: No, but you'd looked at her record and were like, she is not winning a match on grass. She never won a match on grass. But I got to be honest, Catherine is more accurate.

48:25David Law: I didn't know too much about her. But anyway, I'm going to give her her flowers now because she's just gone and won the 125k in Kitsbiel, 6-3, 6-1 over Julia Grapper. So, you know, and she said, I'd like to thank David Law for not believing in me. But can I also mention while I'm here, a title win for Francesca Jones in Rome, also at 125K level. A couple of very funny little notes, or at least interesting ones to me, that she beat four Italians in Rome on her way to that title. And three of them, she lost the first set, either 6-1 or 6-2. She's just getting hammered in the first sets of these matches.

49:08David Law: And then her second and third set scores read like this. Six love, six one, six four, six one, six one, six one. Just destroyed everybody once it got to a second or third set. And two of the players she beat were Trevisan and Bronzetti, which is no mean feat. So well done, Fran Jones. She's so tenacious, Fran Jones. So tenacious, very impressive.

49:32Matt Roberts: Competitor, well done her. Just last bit of news on the women's front, Karolina Mukova, who, what, nine days ago was in the Wimbledon final. She has had what she's describing as a small surgery and she's going to be out for a few weeks. We don't know exactly the timeline, but she has confirmed that she'll be missing Toronto. We don't know the injury. We don't know the surgery. We don't know exactly when she's planning to return. But, yeah, I mean, plus ça change for Karolina Mukova. What can we say without being able to fill in those blanks? But this is Karolina Mukova we're talking about. It is a worry.

50:18Matt Roberts: I mean, her body is always a worry, but, you know.

50:22David Law: Very little we can say, as you say, other than she has at least reached the women's final despite whatever's causing a problem. And hopefully it is just a few weeks because it'd be really nice to have a back for the US Open and playing well and feeling fully fit. So fingers crossed.

50:45Matt Roberts: I do, I wonder about the mystery of it, whether that means it's the wrist again or whether it means that it's something that was troubling her towards the end of Wimbledon and she doesn't want to say or reveal that because she's very sporting, Karolina Mukova, isn't she? And she's also very good friends with Lyndon Oskova and maybe wouldn't want to risk doing anything to detract from that victory. I've no idea. But yeah, it certainly is a mystery that I'm sure will become clearer in the course of time. Okay, that's it for part two. We'll be back in part three to talk about some other bits and bobs of news, some quite significant news as well from the tennis world this week.

51:58Matt Roberts: Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.

52:39Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of today's tennis podcast. Let's start with some news of coaching splits. It is the marriage time of year. It is the split time of year. probably the most surprising of the splits that we've heard about is that of Félix Auger-Aliassime and his long-time coach, Frederic Fontang. I mean, I think they go back right all the way into his teenage years. Now, other coaches have come and gone in that time, but Fontang has been the stalwart, the pillar of that team. and Felix Urgele-Assim has decided it's time for a change. What do you think of this, David? Do you think kind of regardless of what it ends up yielding, a little bit like Andre Rublev, it's good to try something.

53:33Matt Roberts: It's good to test out what the ceiling of his game might be if he does make some changes. Like how risky do you think this is given the stability that Fontang has provided over the course of his career and the fact that he seems to be the kind of guy that needs and values that stability.

53:55David Law: Yeah, it did take me by surprise. I would not have been at all surprised if this announcement had been made this time last year when he was languishing in the rankings. You know, he was 30-odd in the world, you know, and going nowhere, really. At the moment, he's four in the world. And, you know, he's just reached the quarterfinals of Wimbledon. He's been edged out in a classic by Novak Djokovic. He's had his semifinal run to the US Open last year. So in that regard, it is a big surprise to me. I mean, I think you could definitely say he's playing the best tennis of his career at the moment in terms of consistency and high ranking and, you know, reliability.

54:42and his backhand does appear to have made real ground in the last year. That having been said, I mean, he is only still 25 years of age. He's kind of at his peak or entering his peak now in terms of age bracket, you would think. How much more is there to come out of his game? I don't know. But maybe he just wants to find out. And if he does, I completely respect that. and like it. I would... And listen, with people like Alcaraz out of the mix at the moment, this window is bothering people. I've just had a little look at the rankings and you've got Dimonor, who's at five in the world, who's telling us that he's further away

55:33David Law: than he's ever been. And it is his best ranking. You know, you've got Ben Shelton, who's Mr. Grand Slam deliverer. And yet the last two Grand Slams, he's just not been able to produce at all when he's had this window. You've got Medvedev, who's another one we'll come on to in a minute, talking about coaching change. He's eight in the world. You know, but this tells you that these rankings are... I mean, I don't think this in case of Oji Aliasim. I think he's... I still think he's on the up overall. But they're not satisfied. These rankings are a little misleading, I think, for these players. and they're questioning themselves existentially as tennis players.

56:19And so I think it's reasonable. I mean, one of the questions we didn't come to in the Dim and Or press conference, because it was so traumatic, the whole thing was so harrowing, all of his emotions. One of the Australian journalists asked him, he said, I've never asked you this before, but is this a point at which you would consider maybe your coaching situation? He's been with a long-term coach. And Dimonor was kind of like, no, I don't think that's fair to put this at his door.

56:49David Law: But I did also think, I wonder whether he's just thinking about it, because he seems so disillusioned. And they're at their best rankings. There's so many parallels to draw here with these players. So if Ossianni Asim just wants to turn over as many stones as he can to see what else might be out there for his game, all power to him. I personally, I don't think he'll be able to get much better than he is right now, but maybe I'm wrong.

57:16Matt Roberts: Such a good point about how this situation in men's tennis is troubling this pack of players, despite what the number next to their name might be. I mean, David Tinted had it there, Matt, but Daniel Medvedev is split with Thomas Johansson after, what, about a year of working together, maybe a bit less than a year. Now, I know it's been up and down, and the slam results have not been resulting for Medvedev, but there has been good stuff in there. And as David said, like, he's back in the top 10. Like, yeah, there's been a decent amount of good stuff for Medvedev and Thomas Johansson, but it's not enough.

57:58Matt Roberts: I feel like they know in their hearts that there is an opportunity there that they haven't been taking for whatever reason, and the time is now. Yeah, absolutely. Particularly for Medvedev with the next two majors

58:14Catherine Whitaker: being on hard courts and being the ones where I think he does think that he can probably potentially still win one. Yeah, look, Medvedev under Thomas Johansson has played the best tennis I've seen him play in years, I would say. and I really thought that as a player, he'd just become a whole lot less effective at the end of his time with Gilles Savara. He wasn't able to impact players in the way that he used to. He got some of that back, in particular at Indian Wells when he beat Alcaraz and played a great final against Sinner and then he won some titles as well. He picked up some titles, which is something he hadn't been doing for a little while and he'd always done through his career.

59:01Catherine Whitaker: So absolutely a success on that level. And he did play a more aggressive brand of tennis. There were some big lows, of course, as well, like the love and love loss. We'll never forget that. And the Grand Slam results have been really poor this year, certainly by his standards and have been for a long time now. And I do think that feels like the thing that he most needs to get back. And as I said, with these next two coming up on hard courts, the time is now to try and get it back, especially with the uncertainty over Alcaraz. So, yeah, it'd be interesting to sort of see what he does next and also what Thomas Johansson does next.

59:47Matt Roberts: Yeah, I feel like somebody's going to snap Johansson up. Yeah, it's an interesting one because obviously the Medvedev split is different from the Felix split. You know, the Felix split is the equivalent of Medvedev's split from Savara last year, the, like, the wrench of splitting from that constant in your tennis life. Yeah, I mean, who's Medvedev going to get next?

1:00:17David Law: I wonder if Felix is going to snap up Johansson.

1:00:22Matt Roberts: I could see that, sort of temperament, personality-wise.

1:00:26David Law: And also, Johansson did what Felix is trying to do. He was a really good player who seized upon his moment and won a grand slam. That's a great point.

1:00:38Matt Roberts: I do think with Medvedev...

1:00:39David Law: Felix and Medvedev share an agent, I think.

1:00:43Matt Roberts: Oh. Very good, David. I do think with Medvedev, unless somebody can come along and get his serve back to what it was. I mean, okay, he's underperformed at slams big time, But I do think fundamentally it's pretty simple with Medvedev why he isn't the player that he once was and that's that he doesn't have the serve that he once had. So I don't, unless maybe there is a technical thing that can be done to that shot still that could bring back the glory days. But if not, I don't expect there to be a human being that can come in and get him back there. But we will see. Yui Lehechka is also split with his coach, Michal Navratil.

1:01:34Matt Roberts: So another player that obviously thinks he could be doing more. You know, we don't think of him in the Felix Medvedev-Shelton bracket, but, you know, it's an opportunity for everyone going down the rankings right now, isn't it? And it's quite right that Lehechka should see himself through that lens, I suppose. So, yeah, expect some interesting coaching announcements in coming weeks that we will keep you across. Now, some news that dropped yesterday from Ben Rothenberg's Substack Bounces. Pretty jaw-dropping news, I have to say. Certainly, I was pretty shocked by it. And this has now been confirmed by the WTA, who have enacted a policy that requires all WTA players to undergo genetic sex testing in order to maintain their eligibility to compete on the WTA tour.

1:02:36Matt Roberts: This is from the Bounces Substack. Starting this month, the WTA is taking the unprecedented step of requiring all of its players to undergo genetic testing to weed out any women who may have a specific genetic marker that suggests traces of male biology. This, as far as my research has shown, that's Ben speaking there, will make the WTA the first independent professional women's sports league or tour to mandate such genetic screening for all of its athletes. Ben tracks the evolution of the WTA's women's eligibility policy in his article. The 2024 version of the policy used very inclusive language and it provided a pathway with certain testosterone thresholds, but it provided a pathway for a biological male with a female or non-binary gender identity to gain eligibility to play on the WTA tour if she reached and maintained the required low testosterone levels.

1:03:40Matt Roberts: Now, the new version of this document, the Women's Eligibility Policy, which came into effect on July 1st, shifts from eligibility based on testosterone levels to a new mandatory genetic test, normally administered via a cheek swab, to determine the presence of the SRY gene. This would be a one-time test for each athlete, because genetic makeup does not change within a person's lifetime. The SRY gene is a small section of DNA typically found on the Y chromosome, which triggers the development of testes instead of ovaries in a fetus. It's also noted by Ben that the policy which was previously governed by New York law is now governed by Florida law.

1:04:30Matt Roberts: And as I say, the WTA has confirmed this policy update. A spokesperson for them has said the WTA's women's eligibility policy is designed to promote equal athletic opportunities in women's professional tennis and maintain fair competition for all players participating in WTA tournaments. Eligibility to participate in WTA tournaments will be confirmed through a required one-time screening process for the SRY gene. Player screening will begin in 2026 following all appropriate confidentiality and data privacy safeguards and concurrent with a comprehensive player engagement programme. As I say, I was pretty staggered by this.

1:05:17Matt Roberts: Maybe that's naive of me. But on the list of threats to women's tennis and women's tennis players, this did not register for me as one that the WTA would be dedicating its time and energy to in the scheme of things. As I say, maybe given the political climate, that was naive of me. But I have serious sort of practical and ethical and existential concerns about this. Matt, what was your reaction?

1:05:55Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, similar to you, really. I mean, I've been troubled, I suppose, for some time by a lot of the discourse surrounding, uh in particular of trans women in sports um and i suppose my my summary of how i feel about this right now is the wta making out this to be a fairness policy but i it feels to me like a like a slippery slope and actually i think is a potentially quite dangerous policing of women's bodies for a so-called problem, which does not exist at the moment and is purely hypothetical. Now, look, the issue of trans rights and participation in sport has been such a lightning rod for online debate in particular and already feeling a little bit nervous talking about it.

1:06:50I can already feel the comment sections filling up.

1:06:54Catherine Whitaker: But what I will say is that I think there's absolutely a reasonable discussion to be had about protecting the women's sports category. There's a reason that that exists. And it's a it's a tricky issue. And I think it does require a lot of careful thought. The problem is that so much of the discourse is driven by people who might originally have had women's rights in mind, but instead have turned into keyboard warriors who are just purely set out to attack trans people on their rights, making that their whole personality. And Ben does a good job in the article of pointing out some prominent examples of that.

1:07:37Catherine Whitaker: and I actually think that those attacks as you said Catherine on on trans women in sports is actually a smokescreen and a real a feint to throw us off the actual real issues facing women in sport if we really cared about that we would be protecting women and girls from sexual violence and harassment and we would be paying professional women athletes on the same scale as as their male counterparts and we would be promoting them to the same degree and to me these are the issues that the wta should be focusing on when it comes to to fairness and safety and it it feels instead like they've caved to the moral panic and hysteria generated by trump passing executive order in february 2025 titled keeping men out of women's sports which mandates that ban on on transgender women and girls from participating in in female sports um so yeah to me i think that most troubling aspect is what ben's pointed there that that shift of the wta rooting itself in florida and the laws passed there rather than the more liberal new york and this is the wta taking their lead from that stance in the same way that the international olympic committee did and getting involved in a culture war um and do you really think that anyone who actually has an interest in protecting women will will take their lead from from donald trump like be be for real um so yeah i i think there's a slippery slope here and potentially targeting female tennis players who don't conform with traditional femininity or in creating an environment where trans people young trans people those questioning their gender identity fears if they don't belong in sport and also potentially causing issues for wta players who've lived their whole lives as women competed on the tour as women only to discover that they're intersex.

1:09:53Catherine Whitaker: And we've seen that.

1:09:54Matt Roberts: And there have been a lot of examples of that.

1:09:56Catherine Whitaker: We've seen a lot of that. In other sports. So they're potentially sort of trying to solve an issue that I don't think currently exists and potentially create another, an actual real issue for people. I want to look more into this and find out more about what they're doing, but my initial feelings are to be quite troubled by this because of the context in which it sits.

1:10:21Matt Roberts: And there is wording in the policy stating that there will be sort of psychological provision for players that are affected in the way that you've just described, which is a good thing, but it also indicates that they are aware of those likely scenarios that this is going to show up. And, yeah, aware of likely legal proceedings, I would have thought in the future, yeah, this doesn't stop here. And, yeah, I certainly echo all of those incredibly reasonable, reasonable, well-made points that you've made there, Matt. And we will keep you posted. And Ben has brought that article from his substack in front of the paywall.

1:11:14Matt Roberts: And it's worth a read because there's a lot of detail in there. This is a very knotty, complicated issue, which is so often reduced to being uncomplicated and binary on the internet. And it really isn't. That's what bothers me so much about it, that when you want to try to look into it and research it to come to your own view, you are confronted by the discourse that just is so aggressive and so in your face, and that bothers me a lot. And I actually think, you know, I think Ben's done a great job there with that reporting, and I think you both make, you've helped to distill it all a little, certainly for me, and I think he's done a great job with that reporting.

1:12:12Matt Roberts: He has, yeah. It's in his substack, Bounces, and that article is in front of the paywall. So yeah, very worthwhile checking out. In terms of us, well, and tennis, there are events taking place this week. The WTA has 250 events in Prague and in Hamburg. And the ATP has 250 events in Kitschbiel and Estoril. Rise, Kasper Rood. Although he was playing this week and managed to not win, didn't he? Yeah, I think he's pulling out of next week. I read something from Portugal and their disappointment to that because I think he was in broad and a third set this week and he was really sinking fast. I mean, I think he was struggling physically out there.

1:12:59Yeah. One man well, Surundale. to us, John. The good Sir Undelo. What a season he's having. Such main character energy from the guy that wasn't even the main character in his family.

1:13:14David Law: Just looking at his brother, I'm not having you anymore. So that's what's happening in tennis this week. In terms of what's happening in tennis podcast this week, well, David's off on holiday today. we checked in for this came online for this pod recording this morning I was expecting David in a Tommy Bahama shirt and some beach shorts and flip flops instead I got sort of quite formal David in a dress shirt and I said why are you looking so formal David? and he said I said it's the only thing I've got that's clean that isn't packed so the Tommy Bahama shirts are in the suitcase. And do follow our Instagram for Holiday David content because it is a vibe, folks.

1:14:07And that is a well-earned holiday coming your way. No holiday for Matt. What's the opposite of a holiday, folks? Moving house. Buying a house.

1:14:21David Law: Matt's the 2012 me, suddenly. Yeah, for those watching on YouTube, I don't live like this. Yeah, anyone watching on YouTube, the slightly harrowing scene of Matt's empty shelves behind him. He hasn't killed Jude as a result of England's World Cup defeat. Jude is safely packed, as is the Amanda Anisimova doll and various other chintzy bits of soft furnishings that usually feature in Matt's background. Big week for Roberts. Yeah, big day, expecting a phone call any moment. Okay, hint taken, Matt, we'll wrap this thing up. Quite the summer you're having, instead of sort of rest and recuperation around the slams, you're going to Chicago and buying a flat.

1:15:18Don't I know it, yeah. it's good though it's good it's exciting it's very exciting Matt you're gonna it's gonna be I always say this but it's gonna be one of those things but you look back and go did that all happen at the same same it can't have all been at the same time what I moved house the day after Spain won the World Cup that can't have been the same summer as Chicago was it the same summer as Chicago.

1:15:42Matt Roberts: Oh, Chicago. In terms of our plans, folks, we have a show coming out next Monday. It is an interview we've done with The Athletic's Matt Futterman about his book, which is called The Cruelest Game, which is coming out on August the 4th, which I have read the audio book for, which will also be available to download and listen to from August the 4th. It's about, it's a sort of state of the nation in tennis right now book with the sort of central thesis about why tennis players seem so miserable and what structurally and existentially is going on in the sport to make that so and I know that that sounds tough and elements of it are tough but it also feels really important and really relevant to the sport and it was a fantastic conversation that we had with Matt Futterman a couple of weeks ago and that will be coming out on Monday while David is by the pool.

1:16:47Matt Roberts: Then we have a Q &A show for Friends of the Tennis Podcast on July the 31st, the day after David gets back from holiday. So do tune in live on YouTube for that if you want to see the peak of David's tan because it'll only fade from that point onwards. and then we'll be back with, well, regular shows after that, more than weekly. We had a meeting on Thursday to go through our schedule and we have a lot of pods coming up between now and the US Open. So lots to be excited about, folks. We have our mascots, Bodie, Maisie and Roger. We have our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff.

1:17:34Matt Roberts: no shout outs today because Vicky who organizes our shout outs and our lives is literally up Mount Vesuvius at the moment or certainly was at the time of writing so it's that season folks it's wedding season it's holiday season it's moving house season but we will be back in a couple of weeks and before that for friends of the tennis podcast matt good luck thank you david good holiday thank you we we are part of the athletic podcast network and we will speak to you soon with almost half a million customers and over a trillion dollars of secure payments Bill isn't new to intelligent finance. It's the proven way to simplify bill pay and maximize cash flow.

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