Will Rybakina’s title be the first of many?

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1:01Matt Roberts: Well, hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast. We are back. We can't get enough. Tennis can't get enough. David, how are you doing?

1:12David Law: Great. Great, thanks. We are doing a lot of tennis podcasts at the moment, aren't we? But yes, that's what happens anyway at this time of year. Oh, and then we decided to say yes to Jack Draper's request to be on the tennis podcast. And so we

1:28Matt Roberts: did that and it was great yeah we we are the lorenzo muzzetti of the uh if the podcasting world world except except our qualification for turin is already confirmed uh as we come to you in part one we don't know if lorenzo muzzetti is going to turin by the time we get to part two we will know uh but right now we don't know and he doesn't know what a sport matt what a sport right he's

1:57Catherine Whitaker: just a sort of character in Novak Djokovic's play at the moment. Like he's just been beaten by him in an absolutely dramatic final. And now his fate rests on whether Novak Djokovic she wants to go to Turin or not. What a sport.

2:25Matt Roberts: What a sport. That is all to come in part two. In fact, there's an awful lot to come over the course of this show. We've got a lot to get our teeth stuck into. We're going to start in Riyadh and the WTA finals and the WTA season, which has reached its conclusion with Elena Rabakina finishing the week unbeaten, winning the title, $5.35 million and 1 ,500 ranking points with a straight sets victory over world number one, Irina Savalenka in the final, 6-3, 7-6, 7-love in that second set tie break. It means she finishes the year at world number five and of course will start next year as world number five.

3:10Matt Roberts: She came through a three-set match against Jessica Pagula in the semi-finals, two great semi-finals yesterday. One in particular, the Sabalenka victory over Amanda Enes and over 6-3 in the third. An absolutely scintillating match. And it was, in the end, a good conclusion in terms of match quality to these WTA finals, David.

3:34David Law: Yeah, and that has kind of saved the tournament in many ways because it started so flat, this tournament, didn't it? I mean, all those, the first, I don't know, five, six matches that I saw in the singles were not good. And then the last few have been really, really good. And I mean, Rybakina has kept up this incredible clean hitting, this great form that she's on. Ten match wins in a row. And she's just ridden that wave. And I did wonder, you know, because we've seen this before with her and Sabalenka, that when Rebecca is on, Sabalenka sometimes doesn't have the answers. And she's been so ferocious in her desire to win this tournament and to keep finding a way out of situations where she's in trouble.

4:27David Law: and I sort of thought when it went into a second set tie break okay here we go again because this is her territory now she's in a tie break, this is where she wants to be she's been so dominant in tie breaks all the way through the year whereas Rabakina has not won many more than half of the ones she's played this year and then seven love it was just extraordinary really to see that happen and then to see the sort of emotion on Sabalenka's face at the end in the on-court speech and how hard it is that she's kind of the the preeminent player she's at the top of the ranking she's always there at the end and yet she's she's only won the one I mean look I say only won the one big title in terms of winning a US Open but I don't think on the whole that that's enough for her um but but it's it's sort of it's it is a cool conclusion to the tournaments in terms of quality as you say and and the semi-finals were great the final was good um and it's and you look at Rybakina as a winner that is really worthy

5:42Matt Roberts: oh yeah I mean best player hands down best player um over the course of the week I do I do love how bad a loser Rina Sabalenka is provided she doesn't sort of get unsporting about it like she did you know at the French Open this year that she totally owned like she just hates losing so much doesn't she and particularly in a final she sat there just remonstrating all over the place director kind of torn between whether to cut to her or or stay with the winner Yeah, I mean, the nature of that tie break, Matt. I mean, it always felt to me like a match that Rabakina was on top of in that second set.

6:31Matt Roberts: Even though there were no breaks, Rabakina always felt on top. But didn't see that tie break coming.

6:38Catherine Whitaker: No, I mean, particularly given just how strong Zabalenka has been in tie breaks this year. I think that was, what, only the third one or something that she'd lost this entire season, having won over 20. You know, she went on that incredible streak of winning them up into the high teens. As David said, I thought that was her territory. I said on the pod even two days ago, I'm not convinced Rabatkin is going to actually win this title, even though she's clearly playing the best tennis, because how is she going to handle the biggest moments against the likes of Sabalenka, who generally has a better record of sort of stepping up in those moments?

7:26Catherine Whitaker: and I was wrong because it was absolutely Rabatkin who stepped up and I think she did have a wobble against Pagula. I didn't think that was a particularly good performance from Rabatkin in the semi-final. I thought she didn't quite have her game in that match. I think Pagula did well and returned a lot better than a lot of Rabatkin's opponents had done but that was one that Rabatkin just had to get through. But equally I was impressed that she did because she didn't quite have her game and yet she still managed to win it. But today she was absolutely awesome, absolutely brilliant, like so clean.

8:02Catherine Whitaker: Her stroke production is so easy and when she's playing well, it seems like she just hit winners at will and she was doing that against Sabalenka and I think Sabalenka always feels like she should be the dominant force in a match, right? And when she plays for Bakunar, she isn't necessarily And I think that potentially brings out a bit of extra frustration as well. You know, it's not quite on her racket in a way that she wants it to be because of just how devastating we're back in his own game. And yet she'd managed to get it in to the second set tie break. And I thought, OK, this is the this is the moment things change.

8:44Catherine Whitaker: Rebecca has been on top. She hasn't been able to win it before tie break. I'm expecting Sabalenka to step up here, turn the tables, send us into a third set. and honestly probably win. I was kind of doubting Rabatkinner right to the very end, even though the eye test in front of me was saying she was playing the best tennis. And she just kept playing the best tennis in that tiebreak, absolutely stormed all over Sabalenka and was a worthy, worthy winner of this event. She was terrific, to be honest. She was playing exactly the kind of tennis that we all know she can play. You know, the exact kind of tennis why we all still put her in our mixes for tournaments.

9:22Catherine Whitaker: and I was still shocked when she loses early and still expect her to maybe win another Wimbledon. You know, all these things were on display because she was so good and, yeah, has won, I think, her last seven matches against the top 10 to sort of qualify for this event right at the last minute and then blitz through the field and win it unbeaten. Yeah, incredible week.

9:45Matt Roberts: Yeah, and going back to the Sabalenka point you made there, Matt, about her frustration about a match not being on her racket. She'd had that experience yesterday against Amanda Anisimova. She'd had that exact experience and she'd battled through it. And I suppose, despite the fact, I'm contradicting myself here, but despite the fact that I've just said that it always felt to me like Rabatkin was on top, thinking back to yesterday and the way Sabalenka somehow dug in and found a way against a peaking Anisimova did make me think, but this is Irina Sabalenka and she's going to find something here.

10:29Matt Roberts: And I wonder if she did as well. I wonder if she was pretty shocked that there was no level drop at all from Elena Rabatkin. That tie break must have caused a bit of shell shock for Irina Sabalenka, I think.

10:46Catherine Whitaker: yeah and I was thinking about that as well you know what is the difference for Irina Sabalenka playing Amanda Nisimova versus playing Elena Rabakina I was really wrestling with that and I think I was trying to trace the matches that Sabalenka's had against Nisimova this year and I think at Wimbledon she really did try and go blow for blow shot for shot and got beaten at it and got very, very frustrated by that happening to her. And I think the grass kind of assisted Nisimova a little bit with that game style that she was playing. I remember our analysis after the US Open final. What I was really impressed with with Samvilenko is that she actually didn't try and go toe-to-toe quite so much.

11:34Catherine Whitaker: She seemed a little bit happier to let Nisimova hit and hopefully miss and let the nerves of the grandstand final get to her. And I think she did that a little bit again yesterday. She was prepared to use her athleticism and try and use her defence. And I think one of the differences between Anissa Mova and Rabatkinner, as great and as brilliant as everyone knows Anissa Mova is, there is stress that you can see on her face and probably feel as an opponent and I think try and tap into. And I think Sabalenka has, just in the last couple of matches, found a way to do that against Anissimova. Plus, I think Anissimova tired a little bit in that third set yesterday in the very closing stages.

12:22Catherine Whitaker: But against Rabakina, she enters a zone of total serenity and calm. And when she's hitting the ball like that, there's kind of nowhere to go for Sabalenka. And I don't know, just experientially, it feels it feels sort of slightly harder contest for Sabalenka because the opponent's giving her nothing in a way that Anissimova, despite her brilliance, she kind of is giving Sabalenka something. That's my only read on why it's so different for Sabalenka and why she did seem just a bit more powerless today against Rebecca than she had been against a similar opponent in Anisimova. But I'd be interested to know what your reads on that was.

13:11Catherine Whitaker: But that was kind of my take, because I think that is a very important point that you raise.

13:16Matt Roberts: Yeah, interesting. I definitely did think Anna Simova tired. And then that made me think about, you know, the fact that she's never had a pre-season. She never had an off-season with her new fitness trainer. Like, that's a really exciting prospect that Anna Simova is finishing this year as the world number four. And it feels like there's still so much upside. It feels like those changes that she's made that have turned around this stage of her career, you know, that decision to leave no stone unturned, that's still really in its infancy. The fruits of that are still potentially in their infancy.

13:55Matt Roberts: And that's a that's a very exciting thought. But yeah, what was your read on that semifinal, David?

14:01David Law: Well, just on the difference between Rybakken and Enesimova's opponents, I think one thing not to overlook is the serve. Yeah. Anisimova's got a good serve. Rubakina's got a great serve. Yeah. And if you look at the statistics, she served 13 aces in a two-set match, and Anisimova served seven in a three-set match, a long three-set match. Now, it's not just about aces, is it? I know. And I thought Anisimova, in part, did serve very well yesterday. She's got the more sort of gasp-inducing tennis because there's so much of it's played from the baseline in rallies, whereas Rabakina kind of just quietly rolls through service games and she sort of quietly beats you whereas there was nothing quiet yesterday at all.

14:48I mean, yesterday's match between Anissa Mova and Sabalenka

14:52David Law: was one of the matches of the year for me that I've seen. I was absolutely mesmerised in the final set in particular. I just found myself... I wasn't looking at my phone at all. I was just totally engrossed and wrapped up in every single point, even between points, just thinking back to the previous point. And in the first, I mean, some of the stuff that Anissa Mova was hitting on the backhand side, I know we talk about the backhand a lot, and it's obviously the running joke that she is the backhand. It's not a joke, Dave. She's not even on Matt's list. she's so you know it's very serious but but there were two of them that she hit yesterday which i just i don't think i see i've seen anybody be able to hit them ever because one of them was a was a dropping ball out of the sky onto her baseline and you can't hit that for a winner because it's got no pace on it except she did she hit it cross court onto the line at a ridiculous angle and sabalenka's a good mover and she got nowhere near it and then the second one was was a an acute angled backhand from sabalenka and it took it took an islamova off the court and she went around the side of the ball with her backhand took pace off it hit it with a bit of top spin lob loft and put that at a just an absurd angle cross court onto the line for winner.

16:30David Law: She knew exactly where it was going to go. And yet Sabalenka came out. You talked about how she doesn't want to be dominated. And she's just she she was trying to take Anissimova's head off, metaphorically speaking. You know, she she she wanted to just just come toe to toe and show her who was the boss. She wanted to knock her off the court. The problem was that Anisimova is so good and so good at playing against that type of player that it was just these two titans going toe-to-toe to one another. And it was a very tight set won by Sabalenka. Second set, Anisimova suddenly just takes over the match, completely takes it over.

17:14David Law: She wins, what, five games in a row? And then in the decider, the point of the match, point of the tournament was at three games all and and anisimova won it to to to go a point up there and i mean she was dominating the point incredible retrieving from savalinga to stay in it and then anisimova sort of won it again with the most crazy hitting it was she was hitting the ball like she did against usaka in the semi-finals yet there was in the us open yet there was less kind of it wasn't quite as frenetic and frantic she didn't look stressed she looked like she was loving it. She looked really composed and cool and I thought Anisimova was going to win.

17:56David Law: I mean, I know, obviously we thought she was going to win the tournament, but in the middle of the third set I thought, I'm not sure, how do you stop this? How do you stop it when she's playing like this? And yet Sabalenka found a way. What a competitor she is to turn that around. And she won that game. She won that game, that seventh game to break after Anisimova had won that extraordinary first point of it. She's just, like you said Catherine it's great watching how pissed off she is when she loses and yet it's great seeing her just have this appetite during a match as well and look I kind of like Ravakin's quiet way of going about it, I love the different personalities but you now have, in Anissimova and Sabalenka you have one of the great rivalries developing I think over the next two or three years if they can stay fit because they bring out the best in one another.

18:55I love that description of the match, David.

18:58Catherine Whitaker: I think that's so right. I had a text exchange with Matt Futterman, who was in the stadium after that first point of that three-all game, and we just totally jinxed it because she sort of didn't really play a good point after that. We're sort of losing our minds at this point, and then sort of all the air went out of the balloon afterwards. And I think just on that fatigue point, I do think a potential, you know, sort of development for Nisimova. And it's extremely hard because the field is tough, right? I do think she's been a bit fatigued in all of these like big matches that she's ended up playing because she's had to go through such a strong field.

19:38Catherine Whitaker: Like you think of Wimbledon, she had an exhausting semifinal in real heat against Sabalenka, took a lot out of her, had nothing left in the final. I know there was a lot at play in that final, but I think fatigue was part of it. US Open, she had those gruelling matches against Osaka, you know, in that semifinal. It was brutal. Plus the sort of emotional energy of beating Igor Shviontek, sort of getting their revenge there. I think there was probably a bit of fatigue in the final. And then here, a really gruelling match against Shviontek to then have to face Sabalenka. Like she's being a little bit pack-hunted at the moment in the Samova, right?

20:15Catherine Whitaker: it's almost like she can beat everyone but beating them one after another consecutively is kind of the next step or hoping the draw breaks and that might be the difference between winning one or not winning one or she can try and go back to back and do what kind of Madison Keys did in Australia but that was so exceptional and such a hard thing to do it shouldn't be expected to be the norm But that's kind of where Nesimov is right now, I think, you know, like right there and almost just needs, yeah, even maybe a more comfortable win over one of them to save some energy or a draw breaking or going up yet another level to be able to sort of go toe to toe with them in back to back matches.

21:02Catherine Whitaker: I do find it fascinating to see whether whether that development can happen. But yeah, like what a match that was.

21:09Matt Roberts: back to the final and the champion Elena Abakna unfortunately we do have to talk about what it might potentially mean and this is tough it's tough with the WTA finals I mean it's tough with the finals generally but it typically has been quite tough with the WTA finals it can mean a lot you know Coco Gauff won it last year and had a good off season came out looking great the start of 2025 OK, didn't go on and win the Australian Open. But it felt like she picked up where she left off in Riyadh and obviously has ended up having overall a great season, winning a slam. The year before that, Igu Shvontek won it, albeit in Cancun, in very, very odd conditions, had a good season afterwards.

21:57Matt Roberts: But, you know, we have had champions in recent history where we thought it was going to mean a lot and be a springboard. and it ultimately hasn't been at all, at all. I guess with Rabakina, the difference between a Caroline Garcia say is that she has already won a Grand Slam. She's done that before. So this is kind of a reversion to that kind of form rather than something new. But it also has been a long time, relatively, I suppose, since she won that Grand Slam. You know, she has been pretty inconsistent in recent times. So that's my question to you both. David, what does this mean? What do you now think Elena Rabakina is going to do in 2026?

22:51Matt Roberts: You're welcome for that question.

22:53David Law: Thank you. Listen, I still feel as though talent-wise, one Grand Slam title is quite a small number for somebody as good as her. I think I would have expected her to win more than that, really, after she won that one. So talent-wise, I think she's absolutely capable of picking up and she could win. Absolutely she could win the Australian Open. She could win more than one Grand Slam. She's capable, I think. her sheer ability but you know what an extraordinary year she's had you know if you think the start of it she goes to Australia with Goran Ivanovic and then he's basically out of the picture after a single tournament she's separated from her her coach Stefano Vukov he's under investigation by the WTA, subsequently suspended by them.

23:57Subsequently, the suspension is lifted or he's certainly allowed back on the circuit.

24:06David Law: And now she's starting to play, well, the sort of tennis she's capable of again. It's a bizarre situation, really. The whole year has been just really weird.

24:22Matt Roberts: And does that for you, David, add to a feeling of fragility about this form for you? Does it make you feel like it's all so confusing and unusual? She's a tennis player who can be quite hard to fathom at times. Does that make you feel less confidence that this form necessarily is going to translate?

24:45David Law: I mean, the last few weeks, the last few weeks, it's and we only see the public picture of her on a tennis court, of course. It has all seemed pretty serene and pretty settled. So if that were to continue, then I suspect she ends up playing really good tennis. But it's not that long ago that she was pulling out of countless tournaments that she was struggling with. she said insomnia um she was separating from this coach and and not wanting him around um and then she did want him around so it's it's difficult to know well you know what's next maybe nothing's next maybe just this is just how it will continue um but yeah i don't this conversation isn't happening around other players like I'm that isn't in my head around a lot of other players I mean yes there are coaching considerations but we haven't really seen much like this have we um so like I say the last month it's suddenly kind of come together and on the court she just seems to know what she's doing there seems to be a clear picture in her head um and if that continues into of the new year, then her game is capable.

26:08Matt Roberts: Yeah, the game is undeniable, absolutely. There were awkward scenes, weren't there, on the court after the match. It looked like Elena Rabakina declined the invitation to pose with the trophy alongside the WTA CEO, Portia Archer. I see Portia Archer was involved in the ban of Stefano Vukov, who, as David's detailed there, the ban ended up being revoked. He's now free to be accredited on the WTA Tour and indeed is accredited with Rabachner on the WTA Tour, was there courtside throughout the week in Riyadh. But that's a blooming tough scene, isn't it? This is the biggest event for the WTA. This is a far bigger deal for them than any Grand Slam.

27:00Matt Roberts: This is their centrepiece event. And the champion is refusing to pose with the organisation's CEO. It's a really uncomfortable situation that you can't ignore. But it's as... Look, that question that I asked you, David, and I'm now going to ask you, Matt, is an impossible one at the best of times with the WTA finals. But with a player like Elena Rabakina, it's doubly impossible. So I'm sorry again, but I also am asking it.

27:33Catherine Whitaker: And I don't mean to throw David under the bus. I'm not sure if David answered it in terms of whether...

27:38Matt Roberts: Oh, he didn't. He didn't. But I am giving him a pass because I do think it might be impossible.

27:43Catherine Whitaker: Do I also have that pass? Can I cash that in? Let's see. Let's see where we go.

27:48Matt Roberts: I'll assess at the end.

27:50David Law: I gave a good answer even if I didn't give an answer.

27:52Catherine Whitaker: You gave a brilliant context. as to why it's impossible to make that answer. Thank you. I mean, I think I would...

28:02Matt Roberts: What I won't accept, Matt, is another answer about Rabatkin as talent.

28:08David Law: Right.

28:09Matt Roberts: Because we know. So you've got to give a take without mentioning her talent. Well, I'm not asking about her talent. Her talent is not in question. Her potential to win more Grand Slams is undeniable.

28:24Catherine Whitaker: the game speaks for itself but I think what I would say to that is that I had been starting to have some doubts you know about it's about about her future you know like I know I said like we always put her in the mix and we always think she can possibly win Wimbledon again you know I just said that and I think I think I have believed that but I have doubted it a little bit as well because of her record over the last couple of years. She hadn't been the player we know she can be for quite a long time. And I suppose what this week does is just like a jolt, a reminder that yes, the level is still there.

29:06Catherine Whitaker: But I do still have a lot of the same doubts in terms of, you used that word fragility, and David's described the absolute mess that is that Vukov situation, that's all still there. And I still think it could well turn bad again. And I hate saying that. That's not what I want to happen, but it's a worry for me, for sure. I also have had a bit of a theory going about Rebecca and her in long events. You know, like she's tended to win the 500s on tour and I don't necessarily think that's about the level of competition. It might be, but I think these long events, when you've got an unsettled situation behind the scenes, it just seems like maybe some stuff can build up, particularly on off days, you know, whereas you're not just like playing all the time, like you are at 500.

30:07Catherine Whitaker: This was obviously a short event. You did have some off days. And then the other thing is kind of what we talked about on the last pod with the conditions here, you know, like indoors. And I do think what you said last time, Catherine, if we're going to have an indoor specialist on the WTA tour, it feels like it probably should be Rebecca with that serve, with those ground strokes. Like, I know she can play that kind of tennis anywhere and look that good anywhere, but I think she's most likely to play it in these kind of conditions against fellow top players. Like, this may be a take that ages badly, but sitting here at the end of the 2025 season, I would not predict a Grand Slam for Elena Rabatkinner in 2026.

30:52Catherine Whitaker: I think the WTA finals, she was absolutely brilliant. but I just would take, I think I would take more from the slams we've seen this year and apply that to my predictions for next year. And given the strength of the field as well, I don't think Sabalenka's going anywhere. I don't think Svantec's going anywhere. I think Goff will come again and get better, I think. I don't think Anisimova's going anywhere. I think Andreeva is going to come again in 2026. like there's just a lot of great players that can win slams and Rebecca is absolutely in that mix but I would probably need to see a bit more at a slam again to actually make that prediction

31:41Matt Roberts: despite how awesome she was this week I accept thank you I did answer so I'm glad you accept I accept both your answers you you did well there I'm sorry I'm sorry about the question anything else to say on Rabakna or the singles before we move on to Stefania clock for David no okay without further ado Veronica Kudomitova and Elisa Mertens won the doubles title beating Tamir Babos and Luisa Stefani who I think might be looking for a new partner David 7661 in the doubles final Well, didn't Tamir Babos say sort of maybe retire in her speech? I don't know. Maybe I misread that. But I think Stefani might be, you know, her DMs might be open.

32:40David Law: I think she'll have a lot of suitors.

32:43Matt Roberts: I think I also saw reports that Dabrowski and Routliff are splitting up. I mean, this isn't unusual, is it? I mean, end of a season in doubles. There's a lot of partner swapping. So watch this space. But anyway, Kunimitova Mertens beat Babos Stefani 7-6-6-1 in the doubles final. They saved a match point in the semis against Siniarkova and Townsend. Awesome match. I'm sure David was glued to it. It's their second WTA finals title after winning Fort Worth back in 2022. David, over to you. Yeah, they're the fairly quiet semi-finalist pair of the four.

33:27David Law: When I was looking at this lineup, they're not the ones that my eye was drawn to, despite their brilliance, because you've got Babos and Stefani, and I'm obviously right into Stefani's matches because I've always liked her as a doubles player. And they were playing against Shea and Ostapenko, and that was 6-4, 7-6. You know, what a win that is for Babos and Stefani to come past that pair. And then you've got Kuromatova and Mertens, as you said, against Siniak over Townsend, which, you know, they were the favourites really for the title at that stage. And for them to win the opening set 6-4, get a match point, I mean, it takes some turning around.

34:09David Law: And I think what Kuromatova and Mertens have is that even keel, as well as just obviously being really good doubles players. They just have this temperament about them, particularly Mertens. She's just a great balance for a partner. And as the scoreline suggests, that first set was really close today in the final. But then you could just see the wind come out of the sails of Stefani and Babos. I mean, it's a lot of tennis in a week. And I think that they just hit the wall a bit, really, in that second set against a team that are a bit more used to going all the way, frankly. But the doubles was brilliant in the WCA finals.

35:00David Law: Absolutely fantastic.

35:02Matt Roberts: If my unconfirmed reports of Luisa Stefani needing a new partner, David, are accurate, very much TBC, who would you like to see a team up with in 2026? You're allowed to poach from existing teams.

35:19David Law: That's a good question. I mean, I think that there is an argument for sort of Katarina Siniak of her and anyone, isn't there really? I mean, she's such a good doubles player. But her and Townsend are such a good pair. So what always interests me about doubles is that you can do this kind of thing, Katrin. And you can kind of pick somebody out of the list or out of another team and think that it's going to work. And it doesn't necessarily work. I mean, it doesn't work like that sometimes.

35:52Matt Roberts: It's like setting two of your friends up.

35:54David Law: Yeah, exactly. And they're going badly wrong. Is it going to mesh? Is there going to be chemistry? You can convince yourself it's just good on paper. I remember Jamie Murray teaming up with, I think, Max Murney many a year ago. And they couldn't hit a barn door together.

36:13Matt Roberts: I remember Jamie Murray and Neil Skubsky, which, again, seems to make sense. They didn't have a lot of chemistry, did they?

36:22David Law: That's the thing. It doesn't necessarily work.

36:24Matt Roberts: And he and Bruno Suarez were very, very different characters, weren't they? Very different and handled stress very differently on the court. but it just worked, didn't it? Those two together. Okay, more Jamie Murray chat than I was expecting. Just before we move on from the WTA finals in Riyadh, feels like we should reflect more generally on the event. And we thought it was best to do that with the help of somebody who has been out there covering it and that is the Athletics' Matt Futterman. who is, well, I think boarding a plane out of Riyadh as we speak, but has been there for the majority of the tournament.

37:10Matt Roberts: And he has sent us an incredible voice note with some of his reflections and takes. And here it is. As I passed the days in Riyadh this week, one word kept running through my head. Guadalajara. I was in Guadalajara in 2021 for the WTA finals. It was an event thrown together at the last minute as the WTA scrambled to find a location with the COVID-19 pandemic lingering on. I didn't go to Guadalajara with particularly high expectations, and here's what I remember. It was awesome. The 6 ,000-seat stadium and the surrounding grounds, even the streets outside it, were packed, especially for the night sessions.

37:54They were loud and filled with everything I think a sporting event should be filled with. life and fun and music and song and the vibes that Garbina Muguruza rode all the way to the title, the last big one of her career. A lot of that stadium was built on scaffolding. The stands shook after a big point. I remember thinking if I put on a hiking boot and gave it a good kick on the right spot, the whole thing might come down. Climbing up four flights of metal scaffolding stairs to the press seats was harrowing, but God, it was a great event. So that's my bar. That's what I'm going to measure Riyadh and every other WTA finals against for the rest of my career.

38:33Because this is the signature event of the women's tour. It shouldn't be okay, or passable, or fine, or graded on a curve, because the people in whatever part of the world who host it aren't all that familiar with the sport and its stars. It should be awesome, or as Steve Jobs used to demand of Apple products, insanely great. Is that too much to ask? I don't think it is. Look, I give the Saudis some credit for trying I wasn't here last year The players all said the stadium was far more full this time around They said the fans seemed like they had gone to school on the sport They yelled their names and cheered at the proper times The players said the facilities are top notch, and they are The court is high quality, their hotel is luxe The player lounge area has good food and cushy red carpets and soft couches and a great gym Amanda Anisimova, who got here early to acclimate to the conditions, said she liked her ATV ride in the desert.

39:30All that's good to hear. And still, I just don't know why the WTA has come here. The Riyadh versions of the WTA finals don't register anywhere close to the late rounds of Indian Wells or Madrid or Beijing on the awesome scale. And I think the tour finals should. It's the richest prize in the sport. Is it the fifth most important event? And I think that's what the tours want their finals to be thought of. Sitting in the stands of Kingside University Stadium, the room just felt kind of flat. There were lots of empty seats, big swaths of them on the side of the stadium where the luxury suites are, even in the semifinals, and even for the killer matchups like Anisimova's Shontek and Goff's Stabilanka and Stabilanka and Anisimova.

40:17Maybe it was more full than last year. Still, the venue only seats about 5 ,000. Doesn't the WTA want to be in a place where they can get a bigger, rowdier, noisier crowd than that for its biggest event? Something that would really come across as great on television? Like I said, I refuse to grade this event on a curve. It's either awesome and insanely great, or it isn't. The players are insanely great. They deserve to be celebrated in that way. There's the elephant in the room, too. Saudi Arabia's alternative universe approach to human rights. That's a whole other topic that Charlie spoke very eloquently about last week.

40:58I agree with every word he said. My not repeating all those words doesn't mean I'm normalized in this situation. There were nauseating moments during press conferences where people on the payroll of the organizers here would ask players something like, How great does it feel to be part of creating this legacy for young girls and women in Saudi Arabia? Seriously? I could go on and on about all that, and you know what it would sound like. Instead, I wanted to come at this from the perspective of whether the show was worthy of the event. I know the counter-argument. There are roughly 15 million reasons to hold this tournament here.

41:35The Saudis offered a record purse in pay equity with the men's finals. Good for them. Sabalenka and Rabakina played for what I'm pretty sure is the biggest prize in the history of women's sports,$5.3 million. dollars. Good for them. Great for them. I can hear every player who was here getting after me on this point. You know what's awesome, Matt? Fifteen million dollars is awesome. I'm sure it is. And I'm not the one working the phones fielding offers from other interested hosts. Maybe no one else was even close to guaranteeing that number. And maybe it's not fair for me to ask anyone to take less than the highest offer for their work, if that's what the choice comes down to.

42:15But does it have to come down to that? I'm still left wondering if there might not have been a better way. For years now, each time the WTA has a chance to raise the profile of its biggest event, it has mostly decided to hide it from its core fans. I'm all for growing the sport and putting tournaments in new locations, but should you do that with your biggest event? Should you really put it in the middle of the world's biggest construction site? Check that. We get as like 50 of the world's biggest construction sites. This massive sprawl of sand and rocks and cranes and earth-moving equipment. I've never seen anything like it.

42:52Riyadh is also eight hours ahead of the east coast of the United States and 11 ahead of the west coast. That made these matches pretty unwatchable for most people in the U.S. That's not an unimportant market. There are some pretty important companies there that you'd think the tour would want to cultivate as sponsors. In Europe, another pretty important market, much of the competition took place during the workday or the dinner hour. Better, but not exactly ideal. It's been so long since those regions hosted this event on any kind of long-term basis. Most people, even fans, people I know who love tennis, don't really know what this event is.

43:30I think I was about the only American journalist in Riyadh. There was barely any European press presence. For now, the WTA has lost the argument with a lot of the Western media that this is worth paying attention to. That's too bad. I think they've lost that argument with a lot of fans, too. Then again, I'm not sure they've been arguing as much as they should. I want them to make that argument by making the Tour Finals one of the great shows and events in the sport. It can be. I've seen it. I've felt awesome. I'd like to feel it again.

44:04Matt Roberts: Heck of a summary there of the tournament from Matt Futterman. We're really grateful to Matt for that voice note. Just a minor fact correction on that from Matt. The stadium capacity is actually 4 ,200 and not 5 ,000, as he stated in that voice note. And it feels and looks small on the TV. Now, obviously, in principle, I think it's better to have a small stadium that's full or fuller than a bigger one that's empty. But it is depressing that they've made that call because they don't think they can fill a bigger stadium. I find it, you know, even as Matt's done there, taking the human rights out of it, which is not to say it's not the biggest aspect of all of this for me.

44:53Matt Roberts: It is. It's just that we've gone into detail on that ahead of time. And even taking the human rights element out of it, I still find it a bummer seeing this event not feel as big and as buzzy as it should be and not really having any confidence that that is the trajectory it is on. I find all this growing the sport and growing the appetite for the sport in the area. Bullshit, really. There might be incremental growth and there might be incrementally greater enthusiasm for the sport and spectating the sport in the area as the years of this tournament go on. Matt has reported today in The Athletic that the WTA is very enthusiastic about extending the existing deal for the WTA finals to remain in Riyadh.

45:52Matt Roberts: That might happen a bit. That is absolutely not the reason the WTA finals are in Riyadh. They are in there because of money. It is money. That is it. And look, yes, I know I'm always banging on about equal prize money. I want the WTA finals to be able to offer the same prize money that the ATP finals should offer. But I just think it's and I'm not naive enough to think that money, money shouldn't be a factor or a consideration in any of these decisions. But the tours seem to have such a short term attitude towards revenue raising. Like it is long term, I believe, diminishing what should be one of the sport's greatest products, which is which is not going to enhance the revenue raising potential of the WTA in the long term.

46:51Matt Roberts: It's a short term cash grab over long term growth and betterment of the sport, which in the end will yield greater revenues. and look I'm not a CEO I know I know there are difficult decisions and pressures and agendas and stakeholders left right and centre that I'm not privy to and I'm sure I would flounder when faced with all of it but I do know that the WTA finals is in Riyadh because of money so don't bullshit me otherwise and some people will be okay with that some people will say well that's capitalism you know don't be naive cash is king i think we can be better than that

47:40David Law: well you know jack draper talking to us yesterday in the show we put out yesterday about let's look beyond the money and and try to think of of the best way to put on kind of the best show and and it's a different subject but it's the same subject really because what matt was saying about Guadalajara every time we have an addition to this thing I think of Guadalajara as well and I wasn't even there but it jumped out of the tv at me the sound of it the feel of it the look in Garbini Magarutha's face as she won it how much it meant to her I don't think I'd ever seen her in tears before like that you know it moved people sport is meant to move you and atmosphere moves you and look where that sport is going at the moment in terms of places that don't have any atmosphere you know you think of of the Billie Jean King Cup finals recently and and and the WTA finals every year now it's we're so keen to get behind these tournaments and celebrate women's tennis celebrate tennis generally but particularly women's tennis yeah we want it to be we want it to get the stage it deserves and the atmosphere it deserves and the crowds it deserves and yet because of money you end up in these situations where we're not in South America we're not it's not buzzing you know and and it I just think if it were if the if you went after the crowds if you went after the atmosphere if you went after the stage and made it look great and sound great It would end up creating revenue that way in the long term because people would want to be attaching themselves to it.

49:31David Law: People would want to be part of it, sponsoring it, showing it, paying media rights for it. Maybe I'm naive too, Catherine, but that's my attitude towards it.

49:43Matt Roberts: Matt, anything to add?

49:46Catherine Whitaker: No, not really. You've all said it so well. I actually got a bit teary listening to Matt Futterman's voice note when I first listened to it today. Like it was so, so pitch perfect, I thought. Yeah. Flat, nauseating money. Basically the WTA finals experience. Yep.

50:10Matt Roberts: Absolutely. Thank you, Matt, for that. Grim as it is, it was an incredible summary and we are very grateful. The good news is we have some absolute nonsense to pick ourselves up with in part two. Join us for the latest on Lorenzo Mazzetti's Nightmare in just a moment.

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53:01Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part two of the tennis podcast and our preview of the NITO ATP finals, which will be starting in Turin tomorrow, Sunday, the 9th of November. And Lorenzo Mazzetti has made it. The nightmare continues. And do you know, it was Lorenzo Mazzetti that broke the news that Novak Djokovic isn't playing Turin. Because he came into press after his defeat to Djokovic in the Athens final, three hours of the Athens final. He came into press before Djokovic. so he was the first to be asked about it and he disclosed that Djokovic had told him at the net don't worry I have just beaten you in an absolutely soul-destroying final another one of those for you but don't worry about it you're going to Turin anyway and this whole week has actually been for

54:04Catherine Whitaker: nothing you're welcome I did wonder if he'd said something at the net because Mazzetti went from From devastation to smiling within seconds of embracing Djokovic at the net. OK. God, what a situation.

54:24Matt Roberts: There's so many thoughts he must have been processing there. Like, just lost another heartbreaking final. Like, he needs to win one of these. This wasn't just about getting to Turin. He really wanted to win a blooming title and break that duck. I know he's won them in the past, but it's been a long time. He's had a lot of heartbreakers now. These are stacking up. He also wanted to make it to Turin and make the last few weeks somehow worthwhile. He's also feeling absolutely bloody exhausted. And there's probably a part of his brain going, if I don't go to Turin now, I'm off the hook. I can sleep for a week.

55:03Matt Roberts: That'll be great. And he's also probably thinking, what, you mean I needn't have bothered with all this?

55:09David Law: And he's in the Davies Cup.

55:10Matt Roberts: You led me on. You led me on all week. So I'd come and play your family's tournament. What a load of nonsense. But I was obsessed with absolutely all of it.

55:25David Law: Yeah, yeah. Very funny. It's very funny. All of it's quite amusing. I mean, I generally think Novak Djokovic is hilarious at this stage. You know, the fact that he can be this age and still beat so many of these guys and yet sort of be hanging on by a thread physically at times, it looks like. but getting the job done and then celebrating by ripping his shirt off in front it's an amazingly dramatic scene um and then just you know keeping every i mean like he is the master at keeping people waiting every time he's announced for a press conference you you pretty much just put in your diary oh that'll be 20 minutes later than announced there'll be a delay um and it's like It doesn't matter.

56:19David Law: He's at the stage of his career. He just doesn't give a shit, does he, about upsetting people like that. He's just going to do it his way. And I think, you know, a lot of people just think, well, when you've done all that, you can just do what you like. That's what he's doing. And it's quite funny.

56:39Matt Roberts: Yeah, I mean, looking at both of them at the end of that Athens final, I was like, neither of you should go to Turin. They both looked just absolutely fucked, just totally fucked. I cannot believe even one of them is getting on a plane to Turin to play the seven best players in the world tomorrow. The press release reads, Novak Djokovic has withdrawn from the field due to a shoulder injury. Oh, yeah. He just won a title. he is replaced in the Jimmy Connors group by Lorenzo Mazzetti who becomes a direct acceptance Alexander Bublik is now the first alternate a second singles alternate will be confirmed in due course so phone calls are being made hastily when they used to do the photo Catherine

57:33David Law: like you know in London and they used to have a week didn't they between the two I think and they used to do the big photo and they will again from next year

57:43Matt Roberts: this can't happen next year they have changed

57:46Catherine Whitaker: I mean there was a year in London when this happened

57:47Matt Roberts: six players in this one

57:49Catherine Whitaker: there was a year in London

57:50Matt Roberts: there was seven, there was only one missing

57:53Catherine Whitaker: no, there was a year in London when half the field was in Paris were there two? I promise you it was back to back and half the field were in Paris yes, it then got better but like, that's the illustration that was 2012 or 2013 that was and so we've had here we are again we're still there we're still in this ludicrous situation the sport just moves so slowly like wake up yeah

58:25Matt Roberts: we had a draw a photo shoot and a media day without knowing the field

58:31Catherine Whitaker: and it goes back to Matt Futterman's voice note like premium event only three quarters of the players were in the photo shoot this is your premium event This is the biggest event that you have and you've organised your calendar in such a way that you can't promote it. We had Yannick Sinner drawn to play U.Unknown. Unknown, unknown. On the order of play. What are we doing?

59:04Yes.

59:05Matt Roberts: Well, I can tell you what the draw actually is now. The other thing is that with this photo shoot and everything, Felix Auger was there. He's been into him the whole time.

59:17Catherine Whitaker: But not able to be in the photo shoot.

59:20Matt Roberts: Been able to.

59:21Catherine Whitaker: Because he's a slash in the draw.

59:24Matt Roberts: Held in a holding area. Do you think they had him in a sort of purgatory area of the hotel? Like couldn't get the upgrade to the suite until his qualification was confirmed. Only gets to have a continental breakfast. and doesn't get the full buffet.

59:41Catherine Whitaker: And like, Mazzetti's made such a thing of wanting to be in Turin. As you said, he seems to be in no fit state to go. He didn't look like he wanted to be in Turin.

59:49Matt Roberts: He's got to go, hasn't he?

59:50Catherine Whitaker: Like, he can't not go now. Oh, he has to go. So Mazzetti's going to be just the absolute shadow of himself, you would have thought. I mean, by the way.

59:59Matt Roberts: I don't think he will be all right, David. I really don't. Oh, come on. I think he'll enjoy being there. I think tennis-wise, I mean it. I think he's absolutely fucked. I don't think he's in any fit state to do anything.

1:00:14David Law: He's got two weeks of vibes to look forward to in Italy.

1:00:20Catherine Whitaker: This match, by the way, was amazing. Like, such a great match. Like, the first set Mazzetti played, I think, is possibly the best set he's ever played on a hard court. He was unbelievably good. And yet I did think, God, a set up, I'm not sure that helps you that much. That just means you've got more to lose. And then we saw it because if you want to know why Lorenzo Mazzetti has not won a title in three years, watch the three-all game in the third set. He'd just broken back. He'd just played a brilliant game to get it back on serve against Novak Djokovic. He'd been coming at him and got the crowd going.

1:01:01Catherine Whitaker: But Mazzetti's back. He's level. He's in it. And that game, I mean, two double faults in it. He missed an easy, easy forehand with Novak Djokovic basically given up on the point. He somehow managed to push it long and he lost the game and got broken. He did break again as Novak Djokovic was serving for the title, but then got broken back straight away and Novak Djokovic had another attempt to serve it out. It was like the most clutch player in history, Novak Djokovic. clearly depleted clearly not at his best but still sort of producing great stuff against a guy who is so talented and yet hasn't won a title in three years like this was only going to end one way like it was I was watching it thinking this is just total psychological torture of Lorenzo Mazzetti because it was only going to end one way and it did and no way Jokovic has won it but I think this is almost the most cruel scenario as you said, like, if he hadn't won and Novak Djokovic had played Turin, it was like, well, I gave my all, I had to do that, and I was beaten by the better man, I've had a great season, let's prepare for the Davis Cup.

1:02:16Matt Roberts: I'm going to go and lie down.

1:02:17Catherine Whitaker: Right, but now, he doesn't have a title. Yes, he's got into Turin, but he hasn't really qualified, has he? You know, he's got in as nice.

1:02:28David Law: He wanted to be the alternate lying on a sofa for a week, picking up money.

1:02:35Catherine Whitaker: I really hope he can show up and bring it in front of that Italian belt. I think he will. Because I love his tennis. He was unbelievable in that first set. Did you see him at the end, David?

1:02:45David Law: I think he's going to come again. He is such a gorgeous tennis player. It was unreal what he was doing at times.

1:02:54Matt Roberts: Look, it's good news. for the, you want Lorenzo Mazzetti in your finals. I just don't necessarily like the remains of Lorenzo Mazzetti. I worry about that.

1:03:04Catherine Whitaker: And look, 101st title for Novak Djokovic. He's now two off.

1:03:08Matt Roberts: Unreal.

1:03:09Catherine Whitaker: He's now two off Federer. And like, you have to hold so many conflicting thoughts in your head watching Novak Djokovic at the moment. It's like, gosh, he's hunched over. How can he do this physically? And then the next point, he's doing the splits and hitting a winner. it's what's the point in all this you've already won everything and then the next point the whole stadium is going absolutely crazy for him and it's like oh that's the point because you love that and that's that must be a brilliant feeling why would you give that up and it's like oh he can't beat Sinan Alcaraz anymore and yet he's just beaten Lorenzo Mazzetti who's like in the absolute sort the prime of his career, he can still beat all the other guys.

1:03:53Catherine Whitaker: It's such a mindfuck watching Novak Djokovic right now. And the fact that he manages still to pick up a title, he hasn't lost before the semifinals of any of his last six events or something. It's pretty insane. It's pretty insane. And yet, I don't know, you say it's hilarious. I guess it is hilarious. I also found it kind of annoying like that the whole the whole event was being held up by him I get it like if the calendar's going to be like that make use of the calendar but I don't think he ever had any intention whatsoever to place you in and I sort of just wish he'd totally I liked the drama of it it was fun I got into it but I sort of think it would have been better if we'd just known

1:04:43David Law: why do you think he's done that?

1:04:45Matt Roberts: I think like rules wise he can't he can't formally pull out

1:04:49David Law: oh okay

1:04:51Matt Roberts: is my understanding you can't pull out of a tournament with injury whilst you're sort of physically well that's my understanding he could have tipped Mazzetti off is what he could have done and I don't I don't know why he didn't well seemingly didn't but his family does own that tournament and it was definitely to the benefit of that tournament that Lorenzo Mazzetti played it. You know, it's tough to attract decent fields at this time of the year.

1:05:24David Law: Crazy that you can't just say, look, the end of my season will be here and I've decided I'm not going to place you in. But you're not injured. Yeah, but I'm Novak Djokovic. I've been doing this for 40 years. You know, I've done my bit.

1:05:39Matt Roberts: And look, David, he could have tipped the ATP off. it sounds if the the impression i get is he didn't even do that obviously the atp couldn't put anything out publicly but my understanding is that he didn't even tip them off privately you know he really did keep this to himself to just enhance the element of nonsense so you don't

1:06:01David Law: think he waited and sort of just thought i'll see how i feel you you think he'd look he could

1:06:08Matt Roberts: I don't know. My read is the same as Matt's. I think he was probably happy with having the door open should he change his mind, but I think his default position throughout this week and probably for a long time was I'm not playing unless something changes and I feel differently. I do still find it funny. It is. It's funny. It's funny and it's stupid and it's annoying. It's all of it. So what have we got? We've got a Jimmy Connors group with Carlos Alcaraz, Lorenzo Mazzetti, Taylor Fritz and Alex de Menor. And we have a Bjorn Borg group with Yannick Sinner, Alexander Zverev, Ben Shelton and Felix Auger-Aliassime.

1:06:59Matt Roberts: Now, prepare to get very confused about who is in what group. because of the nonsense they've had to play. Usually you get one group playing one day and the next group playing the next day and they alternate and it really helps you get your head around who's in one group, who's in what group, and it helps you with the inevitable maths and scenarios nonsense that you get from round robin tennis. Well, because of the Athens hoo-ha, we're having to play different groups on the same day this year. Certainly to begin with. The tentacles of nonsense really do stretch so far. Do you think they will?

1:07:44Catherine Whitaker: I believe there is precedent. Again, I think we've been in this ludicrous situation before and I think they did make a group play back-to-back days to get it back on track, I think.

1:07:59Matt Roberts: That doesn't feel great either, though.

1:08:02Catherine Whitaker: No.

1:08:03Matt Roberts: Anyway.

1:08:05Catherine Whitaker: Let's see what they do.

1:08:06Matt Roberts: So, on Sunday, we have Carlos Alcaraz against Alex de Menor, and we have Alexander Zverev against Ben Shelton. So that first match is from the Conners group, and the second match is from the Ball group. And then on Monday, we have Lorenzo Mazzetti against Taylor Fritz. Go with God, Lorenzo. And we have Yannick Sinner against unknown unknown, no, crossed out, Felix Auger, Aliassime. I suppose in a preview of a tournament we should talk about who you think is going to win but I know the answer and I think the listener knows the answer it's Yannick Sinner, right? Does anyone think anybody other than Yannick Sinner is winning this tournament?

1:08:52Matt Roberts: David's having a think about doing something crazy here that is your right, David

1:08:58David Law: I mean I'd be pretty surprised if it's not Yannick Sinner at the moment can I give it a round of matches to decide

1:09:07Matt Roberts: no this is the preview yeah Matt I mean you can change your mind but I do need an answer now

1:09:15David Law: I want to see what Alcraz looks like because I always feel like once I've seen him play I know where I stand Matt

1:09:24Catherine Whitaker: yeah Sinner's my pick

1:09:30Catherine Whitaker: yeah Sinner's my pick I haven't really got anything else to say in addition to that

1:09:36Matt Roberts: who okay so Sinner coming through the board group who else do you think is going to come through the board group and who do you have coming through the Connors group are you going to put your money where your mouth is on Ranzo Mazzetti David and pick him to come through the group no

1:09:52David Law: I just thought Zverev and Sinner will come through that group. I think maybe Felix.

1:10:00Catherine Whitaker: I think I might go Felix.

1:10:04David Law: I mean, there is a question mark over Zvera's health, isn't there, from the other week. And Shelton's. He was not in good shape as well. I mean, Shelton's, you know, he's doing well, frankly, to be playing as well as he is, given the injury here out of the US Open. And I dare say he's not quite there yet. But yeah, so I would have thought, I'd say Zverev assuming he fits. But I take the point on Auxerre Asim. He looks in pristine condition, really.

1:10:36Catherine Whitaker: Just in the sound of Felix, he's loving his life choices, right? Taking that week off and like thinking, I'll probably get in anyway. Didn't get him boiled in the nonsense. Didn't get him boiled in the nonsense. Like he really did. He did do well there.

1:10:52Matt Roberts: He did. Yeah.

1:10:53David Law: Would have thought Fritz and Elkraz. Matt?

1:11:00Matt Roberts: Yes, I think so. I know Matt Togging over Dimonor.

1:11:04Catherine Whitaker: I'm tempted by Dimonor.

1:11:09David Law: I mean, why would you think he's going to get in ahead of Fritz?

1:11:14Catherine Whitaker: I don't really. I just rate Dimonor.

1:11:21David Law: He's a great player to watch. I really do enjoy watching him play now. He's become a really interesting player to watch because he's dynamic. You know, he realised that he's got to add more and be assertive. So I like watching him.

1:11:34Matt Roberts: In the doubles, we have a Peter Fleming group with Cash and Glasspool, Granoya Zabajos, Kravitz and Putz and Beleli and Vavasori and a John McEnroe group with Heliovaro Patton, Aravalo Pavic, Salisbury Skubski and Harrison King. we should also talk about the Mets final which wrapped up earlier today and the title for Lerner Tien in an incredible final 6-3, 3-6, 7-6 he trailed 5-1 did Tien in the deciding set tie break so a total heartbreaker for Cameron Norrie but the end to an incredible season really for Lerner Tien Matt

1:12:22Catherine Whitaker: yes I must say I had to sacrifice this match I did not have enough screens so I didn't see a ball of this but yes absolutely like TN I mean I did know who he was a year ago but only just and now I'm going to contradict myself because I just said I had to sacrifice this match and I didn't watch it. But I'm also going to say he is one of the players I really do like to go out of my way to watch. Just not as much as Lorenzo Mazzetti, apparently, and not as much as Sabalenka and Rabatkin in the WTA finals final. He's not quite there, but he is high on my pecking order, I promise, because I love his tennis brain.

1:13:12Catherine Whitaker: I think he's got a really different, interesting game. and I think he's still very much a hard court player, isn't he? He did sort of disappear a little bit in the middle of the season but I've really enjoyed watching him on the hard courts this year like unpick some top players. That was really notable about the start of his season, how dangerous he was against the top players. I'd just love him to be able to improve that serve because I do think it's still going to be holding him back a little bit But if he can, watch out because, yeah, he is so good from the back of the court.

1:13:52Matt Roberts: Well, he's got a whole six week off season now, Matt. So he's probably going to come out the gates in 2026 like Ivo Karlovic. Watch this space. That's it for part two. We'll be back in part three with a bit of reaction to our Jack Draper interview. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85 % of the 14500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most.

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1:15:32Matt Roberts: Welcome back to part three of the tennis podcast where we just wanted to reflect a bit on our two hours with Jack Draper this week. We only did the interview on Wednesday. It went out on Friday morning. it's been a real whirlwind for us and it's been really very nice seeing the seeing the reaction to Jack because what you see in that interview is exactly what you get like a lot of friends have texted me and said you know but what was he like off the record and I'm like exactly what you've heard on the record like that is Jack Draper you're getting his totally authentic self and most people seem to be really responding to that, David, just as we did.

1:16:22David Law: Yeah, it's pleasing. I mean, I think he spoke really well about the subjects of which he feels really passionate about. I mean, to go out of your way, to actually get in touch with a show like ours, people you don't know very well, and pitch it, you know, and have the idea and go with it. And just literally, he arranged everything. He sort of put everything aside in order so that he could be there. And then when I ended up in my eight-hour nightmare on the motorway, there he was happy to put the thing back three hours in order to still enable me to be there. You know, he couldn't have been more accommodating.

1:17:04David Law: And I sort of hoped for him, although we wanted to do a really robust, journalistic job and ask the right questions and challenge one or two things and so forth, I also I'm pulling for him to get the result he wants, you know, to start this conversation and to be able to make some progress, because I mean, for a start I think, I believe in it, I actually think they do need to reduce the length of these Masters 1000s, we're always banging on about it, but I'm pulling for him in that regard and I'm also pulling for him as a player, because he made such strides, didn't he, in the first half of this year, and he looked a real feature of the top end of the sport, a factor.

1:17:47David Law: And I hope that his physicality allows him to be that because he really is a top guy, like just a really nice person who is thoughtful and polite and considerate. I mean, they're basic human qualities that you want people to have. And listen, there are lots of good people in tennis, I think, but I've not met many like him who seem so unaffected, generally speaking, by tennis. And yeah, I hope that he does well in the future. And I hope other players see the ways he's handled this situation, this approach to the media and not putting it in the hands of somebody else to make the calls for him all the time.

1:18:43David Law: I know it's not possible to do that all the time because they've got so many things to do. But look at the PR it gives him. I'm just going to keep telling people about this. And that's good for him. it's just but he's not done it for those reasons he's done it because well that's just the way he is but yeah great guy

1:19:07Matt Roberts: yeah Matt

1:19:10Catherine Whitaker: yeah well I

1:19:11Matt Roberts: he called Fulham a good team these days yeah that

1:19:15Catherine Whitaker: that might have been the least accurate thing he said another loss today for the Whites I agree with everything David said about Jack's character I guess the only thing I would sort of add is how interesting I found it hearing the player's perspective on this, right? Like, it was exactly what he wanted to do. You know, we hear snippets of a player perspective in a press conference or in a tweet. And we know the general mood and the general feeling. but I think he did a great job of really adding to our conversation and discussion on the scheduling issues by taking us inside the mindset of a player right and that is something that we can't provide and I think he did a great job of articulating that you know like I do think sometimes I am a little bit oh well just skip a tournament like you can do that and I do think players maybe have they do have that agency but I think he did a great job of explaining the mindset of a tennis player and why it's not just as easy as that and you are chasing ranking points and you are chasing the year-end finals and you don't want to lose an edge over a player and all this kind of thing and why that grind and that toll and that loneliness can really wear on you And I think he did a brilliant job of explaining why generally these top players are privileged and they live good lives, but also why it's OK to want change.

1:20:54Catherine Whitaker: And I think he did a great job of balancing those things, of recognising that some people won't agree with him. But just putting it all on the record out there and being so open and honest and reflective, I think, was absolutely to his credit. And, you know, if players conducted themselves and discussed the issues in the sport like Jack Draper did there, you know, I think the sport would be in kind of a better place. I think in that respect, he's really sort of leading by example. So, yeah. Shout out to him for that.

1:21:36Matt Roberts: Yeah, Jack will be there supporting you in the one point slam. and you will I will yep yeah it was it was a great experience and yeah we're really really grateful and we hope you enjoyed it we have a mascot for this episode this is a face I know this is Maverick Maverick owned by Carol of course a two and a half year old German short head pointer who proudly represented the pod at Wimbledon in 2024 and couldn't resist coming back for more. Maverick is guilty of chasing cats, shredding airplane neck pillows on airplanes or I've got some questions there, Carol, and also shredding fitted sheets, snuffing out unsuspecting rodents, consuming large amounts of horse poo.

1:22:32Matt Roberts: That's a tough scene. Knocking over furniture and requiring four hours a day of vigorous exercise. My God, Carol. What is your daily step count? As he's a proud card-carrying member of the top 10 most active dog breeds club. Yes, I have heard this about German short head pointers. They are wonderful, but they are, it's quite the undertaking. Thankfully, says Carol, we have the tennis podcast, which invariably puts him to sleep in seconds. He loves every dog he meets and all humans who have dogs and carry treats. He's not so sure about humans who don't have dogs, which is understandable in my opinion.

1:23:13Matt Roberts: He's a full-time job and he's 100 % worth it. Well, Maverick would like Jack Draper. I think Jack Draper carries dog treats about his person. That's the vibe I get from him. We love Maverick. They are stunning dogs. German short-head pointers. What a handsome boy. Thank you, Maverick, for coming back to us. And thank you, Carol. Hello to Phoebe, Maisie and Roger, our mascots, of course, and our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Geoff. Shall we have some shout-outs, Matt?

1:23:47Catherine Whitaker: We have Ruth Summerfield from Wimbledon. Hi, Ruth.

1:23:55Matt Roberts: From actual Wimbledon. Ruth, my neighbour. Like Ruth, our accountant, David. Correct

1:24:07Yes

1:24:14Matt Roberts: Lovely lady What else What else do we know about Ruth?

1:24:22Catherine Whitaker: Ruth says I've been a friend since the beginning but only accidentally as I tried to buy it as a gift for my daughter Katie but didn't do it properly So I ended up with a gift for myself and then bought again for Katie, who also, like myself, kept up being a friend every year since. And we went to your first live pub together.

1:24:42Matt Roberts: Oh, mother-daughter listening duos is a lovely thing.

1:24:48Catherine Whitaker: I hope it's all worth it. Yeah.

1:24:51Matt Roberts: Thank you, Ruth. That's lovely. And hello, Katie, as well.

1:24:54Catherine Whitaker: We've also got Joseph Ha. We know Joseph.

1:24:59Matt Roberts: hello Joseph hello Joseph

1:25:01Catherine Whitaker: Joseph grew up on a farm in South Dakota but has lived in various parts of Asia since 2010 and he says that he has a real soft spot for Daniil Medvedev so his recent Almaty win was a highlight of the year

1:25:24Matt Roberts: yeah those photos Those were a highlight of everyone's year, Joseph. Thank you for reminding me of that imagery.

1:25:30David Law: I do love hearing about people who have a favourite player and how their mood and their days are sort of affected by how that player's getting on. You know, it's cool. So delighted for you that he's had a bit of a resurgence, Joseph, because it'd be a bit roby all year.

1:25:52Matt Roberts: I bet he's getting a call as we speak about whether he fancies He's being an alternate in Turin. And I think he's saying no. I think I've already seen some Medfordev holiday photos. Yes. In fact, you're right. I have too. Doesn't mean he's not getting a call, Matt. I reckon, David, he's in the Maldives.

1:26:10Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, probably. You would, wouldn't you?

1:26:14Matt Roberts: Thank you, Joseph.

1:26:15Catherine Whitaker: And finally, we have Michael Middleton from New York, just 10 miles from the Billie Jean King National Tennis Centre.

1:26:27Matt Roberts: Michael. Love that. Like Michael Chang, coach of Lerner Tien.

1:26:32David Law: Who was seen giving Lerner Tien the loveliest embrace upon the title victory today.

1:26:40Catherine Whitaker: Michael says that he started listening to the podcast during the pandemic, often listens as he walks the dogs. He loves tennis relived. And his husband has also become a fan and attended our live show prior to the US Open this year with Michael.

1:27:02Matt Roberts: Love that.

1:27:04David Law: Awesome.

1:27:05Matt Roberts: Thank you for coming to that. Really appreciate it. Michael, Joseph, Ruth, thank you very much for being friends of the Tennis Podcast. If you'd like to become a friend, the link is in our show notes. We have two bonus episodes coming for friends next week. We have our penultimate edition of Tennis Relived for 2025 about the incredible, iconic broadcaster Bud Collins. And we also have a live Q &A show on Wednesday evening. It'll also be available as a podcast. So if you'd like to become a friend, get access to all of that, as well as The Barge, ad-free listening, Hannah's column, all sorts of fun, all of our archive of bonus episodes.

1:27:46Matt Roberts: then the link is in our show notes. Folks, we will be back on...

1:27:54Catherine Whitaker: Friday, I believe, on the main feed to wrap up the group stages of the ATP finals.

1:28:04Matt Roberts: We will be back on the main feed on Friday. If you can't wait for them, the thing to do is become a friend of the Tennis Podcast. and then on Sunday so Sunday the 16th of November our rap show about the ATP finals will be live on YouTube at 8pm UK time it'll also be available as a podcast but if you want to join us live for that 8pm UK time on Sunday the 16th pop that one in your diary maybe Lorenzo Mazzetti will win the whole thing and prove me wrong and we can open the show with a little soundbite of me saying that guy is fucked. Folks, thank you for listening. We'll speak to you soon.

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1:30:06Thank you.