Zheng Qinwen lights up Beijing

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1:12Coco Gauff: Well, hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast, where it is Friday night in the UK. We're expecting Disco David in the house for tonight's show. Consider it a true mark of how much we love and are dedicated to the tennis podcast that as we speak,

1:32Zheng Qinwen: the traitors is broadcasting in the UK and we are not watching it. And we're fine about that, Matt. We're absolutely fine about it. Totally fine. Not thinking about the traitors at all. Obviously, the only time we normally miss the traitors is when we're unconscious after a day at the Australian Open and we wake up and immediately watch the traitors as the first thing we do during that tournament some days. So, yeah, this is a new one. But, you know, we love the pod, so we couldn't miss a pod either. We love the pod, folks. We are absolutely not at all distracted by thoughts of the traitors. Let's get straight into it with Beijing and the WTA 1000 event that continues there.

2:23I mean, I feel like I know I say this every year

2:26Zheng Qinwen: and I'm going to be saying it next week about Shanghai for the ATP, but it does go on a bit, doesn't it?

2:34Coco Gauff: The non-combined 1000s, the 12-day non-combined 1000s, they go on.

2:45David Law: Yeah, they go on. I think Shanghai is even worse. I think because Shanghai comes on the back of Beijing and I mean, the players have just started to play the big names and that one seems to have been going on for a long time already.

3:05Coco Gauff: And at least for Beijing, WCA, the early stages of it, which can be a real drag these days because of how many buys there are and how much they've expanded the draws, at least you have the ATP 500 event concurrently. It's not quite a combined 1 ,000 because it's this weird situation of a 1 ,000 and a 500, which I actually think is quite awkward because with 500 events, the top players are paid to be there. So you've got the big names on the ATP side that are getting handsome appearances to be there and you've got the big names on the WCA side that are there because they're required to be there.

3:46Coco Gauff: I think that's a little bit awkward. But anyway, there's been good tennis. And the tournament's been going on for so long and yet we still have the most important matches to go squeezed into two days.

4:00Zheng Qinwen: Yeah, it's extraordinary how tennis manages to achieve that. Let's start with the top half of the draw

4:06Coco Gauff: and let's actually pick up where we left off from our last pod, which was, well, amongst other things, talking about Coco Gough, who had had a very tough experience in Beijing so far. She had been suffering from racial abuse online, disgusting racial abuse. She had called it out. We talked about it on the last pod. Absolutely horrifying to see, quite frankly, and perhaps not surprising that what we saw from Coco Gauff in her subsequent match after all of that was a very out-of-sorts performance against, albeit a brilliant Elisa Mertens, who we'll talk more about over the course of today's show.

4:58Coco Gauff: She said the last few days for her had been draining and, Matt, she has now withdrawn from Wuhan, the next event as well. It is by no means a shock that something as disgusting as this should be so um undigestible um for for anybody but Coco Goff who was so it's so difficult to derail Coco Goff I think what we saw against Lisa Mertens yesterday and and the fact of this withdrawal from from from Wuhan should be a real I mean wake up call as if anybody's going to pay attention to this. But I don't know, to see Coco Gough sent off course, sent off balance in this way is quite disarming, I think, and should be a real note of alarm.

5:56Coco Gauff: And I do find it slightly disappointing that we haven't heard anything from the WTA about this.

6:05Catherine Whitaker: yeah it it was really tough to see her actually on court against mertens um the the commentary that i was listening to there was mention of the of the abuse that that she'd suffered but there was also you know speculation about whether she was injured or whether she was ill and she did say to her her team towards the end of the match that that she felt like she was going to pass out on the court um and it it just was not the coco golf experience that that we're used to um and then for her to talk afterwards about how draining the week had been and you know i think it i think it was clear then in those quotes that certainly that had that had been a big influence on on the way she was feeling and and and how she performed and i i feel so sorry for coco golf like it was it's just a horrible, horrible way that this tournament has turned and what she's experienced and no one should have to experience that.

7:09And I hope she's able to, you know, get some time away and come again strong at the end of the season.

7:20Catherine Whitaker: She's obviously qualified for the WTA finals, but, you know, I'm not surprised that she needed a change of scenery and just to get out of there, really.

7:30Coco Gauff: No, it shouldn't need condemning, David, racial abuse, but it's not difficult to put out a statement saying, you know, we've seen this and we condemn and abhor what is happening to Coco Gough. Like, is it a surprise to you that we haven't heard anything from the WTA?

7:52David Law: Do you know, hearing you both talk about it makes me suddenly realize that hasn't happened i hadn't really thought too much about it but absolutely i do feel like that should have happened and and uh just again it's stating the obvious but reiterating your full support for coco golf and and making it clear this is this is completely unacceptable and is something that is going to be dealt with as far as, you know, they will not rest until players do not have to suffer this kind of thing through social media. Or at least, you know, I do want to hear that. And I do feel that there's a little bit too much sort of, not acceptance, but there is, I hear in some of the commentary a little bit where you just have to turn your social media off or, you know, not everybody.

8:54Coco Gauff: Oh, it's the modern age, isn't it? You know, the social media age.

8:58David Law: Yeah.

8:59Coco Gauff: I mean, yes, to an extent, but it's not the same for everybody.

9:03David Law: It's not. No, it really isn't. So, no, I do think that that was a miss, really, not to do that.

9:14Coco Gauff: Yeah, we wish Coco Gough well. It's going to be a shame not to see her in Wuhan, but absolutely understand that decision. And I don't think any of that can detract from or will detract from what we've seen from Elisa Mertens this week. Matt, this is my... The next few minutes are going to be me trying to prove to you that I am not anti-Elisa Mertens, OK? I'm going to sit back and enjoy.

9:42Zheng Qinwen: I have never been anti-Elisa Mertens, OK?

9:46David Law: This was coming across on the WhatsApp, Matt. There were just little things that I thought,

9:51Zheng Qinwen: I've been journalistically neutral on Elise Mertens, whereas Matt has been, you know, on the Elise Mertens hype train. Well, Matt, I briefly boarded that hype train today.

10:07Coco Gauff: I loved her performance to beat Iger Svantec today, 7-6, 6-3. I'm a bit gutted that we're not going to see Shiontek against Jung Chinwen. That is a matchup that I just really, really enjoy. I know we saw it at the US Open, but I'd missed it for a long time before we got to see it then. I kind of feel like I can't get enough of it right now. So particularly in Beijing too with the crowd support for Jung. So I'm a little bit annoyed about that. and yet not as annoyed as I thought I would be because I loved this performance from Elisa Mertens so much. This was like, if you're a tennis fan, then it'd be impossible not to.

10:57Coco Gauff: It felt like a just sort of complete tennis performance from Mertens. It was a real joy to watch. Is that enough for you? No, keep it coming, keep it coming. She was great. She was really great. And, you know, I was pleased for her because, as we said,

11:17Catherine Whitaker: not Goff's fault, not Merton's fault, but that match just was weird. The Merton's Goff one. And it was Merton's first ever win over Coco Goff. But it didn't really feel like one to celebrate or one that you could really draw too many conclusions from because of everything that we've already talked about. So she then comes into this match against Igor Sviontek. And Sviontek had been awesome in her previous match against Ivo Jovic. She'd had that escape from Dona Vekic a couple of rounds before, and it felt like that had unleashed Sviontek. So I, you know, as much as I hype Mertens up, I was not thinking that she was going to beat Igor Sviontek today.

12:03Catherine Whitaker: I actually thought Sviontek would probably handle her quite comfortably. She's not a player, Mertens, with loads of weapons and power that you think, well, if she turns it on, that's really going to cause film tech a lot of problems. But I think that's maybe why it was so riveting, because she was causing problems, but not in necessarily the most conventional way. She's got a real blend of these Mertens when she plays well. She can attack. She can really go for it, especially on her backhand. She can take that shot really early and she kept wrong footing Svjantek, taking the ball early in that way.

12:40Catherine Whitaker: But she can also defend and she knows when that's required and how to do that. You saw it on the match point. I mean, Svjantek was throwing everything at her. Mertens just kept getting everything back and eventually it drew an unforced error. But the thing that I think impressed me the most was the way she served. I mean, this is only the second match, according to Opta, where Igor Sviontek has not created a break point. One was against Coco Gauff last year, and then this one against new serve bot Elise Mertens, who, again, go to the final game of the match. She's love 30 down, Elise Mertens. And you're thinking, OK, this is maybe where Sviontek starts the charge, tries to do what she did against Vecic and melt the comeback.

13:25Catherine Whitaker: love 30 down and merton's just hits three brilliant serves to get her match point up and she kept doing that all match finding the serves when she needed it and it's it's just a lovely moment for someone who you know is so consistent and such a constant presence on tour such a nice person as well she's in my you know she's in my kim beryl list of just lovely people that you want good things for. Who else is on that list? Well, Madison Inglis, apparently.

13:58And yeah, this is a really big moment for her

14:01Catherine Whitaker: to get back in the semis and to beat Iguys Fiontech. So I really enjoyed this performance as well from Mertens.

14:11Coco Gauff: I don't want to put Matt on the spot with a stat request, But I would hazard that it's a rare sight for a player to play back-to-back tie breaks and win one seven love and lose the next one seven love. Surely that has rarely been seen, which is what happened to Igor Shiontek. Yeah. I don't have that stat to hand, though.

14:44David Law: i've got some eliza merton stats um because i've been doing some doing some research a bit well because i think because i i watched went back and watched the match um retrospectively and started to realize just how much i take for granted and i think just generally we all everybody takes eliza mertens for granted because she is kind of she feels like kind of the same player all the time and and i know that sounds a bit mean but i but i also think that there's truth to it and then you look at the stats and they actually back it up you know this is a player who's played the four grand slams all of them between 10 and 12 times each and she has a win rate of 65 to 70 percent at all of them you know that it's it's just very very consistent you know well over half the times she's played Grand Slam she's either lost in the third or the fourth round.

15:41David Law: And I think 13 times she's lost in the fourth round. So she's reached the second week of Grand Slams but she just doesn't go further. She's ranked six seasons in a row she ranked between 20 and 34 in the world. I mean, it's amazing consistency, isn't it? And yet when she would face players like Sabalenka her record is 2-11. Goff, it's 1-5. we're back in her it's two and seven you know she'll get the occasional win but it's it's few and far between and yet she still keeps on coming back and punching the clock and giving everything she's got and then she's got this wonderful doubles career going alongside it where she is a real you know she's a champion she's not just a sort of second week player or third fourth round player i just i have such a lot of respect for her and and and yet she isn't somebody i very often taken notice of because I just don't see the big win coming.

16:37David Law: And then, so to do what she's done today is massive. I think that kind of puts it in a little perspective as well.

16:44Coco Gauff: Yeah, she's never won a huge, well, she never, has she won a 500 match? She certainly never won a title of this magnitude or been in a final of this magnitude. Like this would be, even though she's had kind of big upset wins at slams, certainly one or two of late, I think this would be a different gravy in terms of relevance for Elisa Mertens if she were able to, I mean, potentially is already, but certainly if she were able to get one step further. Standing in her way is Chinese wildcard Zheng Chinwen, who has also been an absolute joy to behold over the course of this tournament. She beat Alina Svitolina earlier on today to reach the semifinals, 6-3, 7-6.

17:39Coco Gauff: I was so sure this was going to a third set. It felt like the momentum was with Svitolina to me at the tail end of this second set. and going into the tie break and Jung Chin-wen opens the tie break with a double fault. And I just, I mean, I would just go, oh, it's just okay. I've fucked it then, haven't I, if I opened a tie break with a double fault. But she's so accepting of the high wire act that is her game, Jung Chin-wen, and she's built a bit of confidence now, hasn't she? I think she's won 12 of her last 13 matches with her run through qualifying and through to the quarterfinals of the US Open.

18:26It felt like she just had a solid foundation of confidence to fall back on,

18:34Coco Gauff: that the micro setbacks didn't proliferate into macro setbacks within the match. And it's really exciting to me, Matt, that we're seeing this from Jing Chin Wen off the back of what we saw in New York.

18:51Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I think today's performance was the best one that I've seen from Zhang in this entire comeback run since qualifying of the US Open, where, you know, I think what you're talking about there has been the defining feature of a lot of her matches, ups and downs and quite severe ups and downs, you know, like finding herself five love down and yet then coming back to recover and win. Like that was absolutely incredible. It's just not sustainable. Like you can't win tournaments doing that all the time, but you can win tournaments playing like this, how she played today, which was with so few lapses.

19:34Catherine Whitaker: She went down a break in the second set and immediately got it back. And she was just awesome. I think she looks a lot more secure than she did even a few weeks ago. There were far fewer errors. And the number of times that she would just get a heavy strike in and that would knock Svitolina back and then she would hit the winner. I felt like her combinations were really good. good she wasn't just going for too much on the on the first strike it was that balance which was perfect and yeah seeing her do it in beijing with that adoring crowd as well was fantastic the atmosphere was electric um and actually on the on the sky coverage as soon as she finished jung ching when they flipped over to shanghai to show arthur ferry and i think they were right the commentators that they picked up people in the stands in shanghai looking at their phones and suddenly getting quite sort of pleased i think sort of they were checking the zheng shenwen score from in beijing and that was filtering crew and you know she's such a big deal and i love that and i think i think you know they obviously hold the olympic games and winning gold in in such in such high regard as they should that absolutely um so yeah she has that she has that real cut through, I think, and it's been fantastic to see.

21:00Catherine Whitaker: And she's got through those three-set matches this tournament and then had this perfect two-set performance. And, yeah, it's tantalising.

21:09Coco Gauff: Enjoyed during this week, David?

21:12David Law: Yeah, and, you know, Matt reminded us today something that we have talked about in the past, but which I'd forgotten that this last week has been one of holidays, or the last few days have been holidays in Beijing. and you and I, Catherine, were getting a bit miffed the other day when we saw a Jung Chin Wen match where she didn't have a packed stadium after we'd seen the incredible scenes when Novak Djokovic had been playing and I was a bit concerned, really. Are they not into Jung Chin Wen? I mean, come on. And then the moment the holidays were over today, the place was just jumping. Every seat filled.

21:54David Law: total adulation and love and affection and support and it was just great to see it I love Elina Svisalina I don't want to pick favourites but my word you want Jung Chin Wen to go deep in this tournament because she just brings this incredible atmosphere with her and I'm just really pleased for her because she's been in dark places in the last couple of years because of the injuries. So good for her, you know, and it's high-level stuff too. That decision, sorry Matt, that decision she made

22:36Coco Gauff: to pull out of Cincinnati qualifying at the last minute and go for a training block in Florida is starting to look like one of those tennis sliding doors moments, isn't it? and i saw some quotes from her this week about just how high she's aiming you know like she

22:59Catherine Whitaker: doesn't want to she doesn't want to get back to where she was she wants to be better than where she was was kind of the vibe you know like she thinks she thinks her ceiling is higher than her current highest ranking and i'm sure she wants to win a slam that she hasn't done yet you know like and i'm sure that i think the early stages of the us open were about finding herself on court again and finding her confidence. And it seems like she's in a new phase now and it's really about aiming high. And yeah, having her end the season like this, I find it hard at this time of year not to think about the Australian Open and just like setting that tournament up.

23:41But, you know, it does. Having Zheung in this form is so exciting

23:46Catherine Whitaker: for the start of the new season as well as the end of this one.

23:50Zheng Qinwen: Jung or Mertens in soon-to-be-out-of-date predictions. Come on, Matt. Oh, I'm glad you asked me for a prediction. I'm going to go Jung. What else could I have been asking you for? He thought you were going to have to show your feelings. No, prediction. I'm going Jung. OK. David? I'm going Jung as well. OK, we'll be back in part two to talk about the bottom half of the draw, and I will press for more soon-to-be-added-date predictions.

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27:18Coco Gauff: Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast. The bottom half of the draw in Beijing. We'll see Mira Andreeva take on Nikola Bartonkova, the winner of that to take on. The winner of Jung Chin Wen and Elisa Mertens. Mira Andrava beat Ekaterina Alexandreva 7-6, 7-6 in her quarterfinal. Quite the rollercoaster ride this one, David.

27:44David Law: And tough, you know, this was just such a tough match because Andrava kept taking healthy leads in both sets. She had healthy leads. Alexandreva pulled her back. And I actually feel like that shows real growth from Andreeva that she didn't tailspin, especially end of year. You know, she was talking in her press comments about how close she is now to WTA finals and remembering last year when she didn't make it. And yet she'd been in position to make it all the way through and then came up short. And this time, you know, she's excited. You can just see somebody who's in real time having to kind of grow up all the time.

28:28David Law: She's always had this. And Alexandra was just pushing her, physically pushing her, throwing weight into her shots. And then the Andreva backhand came into play and just sort of dug her out of trouble time and time again. Backhand winning down the line, despite being pushed deep into the corner. so yeah really really good win I think but the fact that she mentally is still with us if you like at this point of the year when it's grueling and hard and she hasn't lost any of the ambition I don't think

29:05Coco Gauff: I think her qualification for Indian Wells in the finals is now confirmed I mean it wasn't far from confirmed but I think it is now official So no nightmare tour for Mira this year. Yeah, I think if you win a slam, you only have to finish in the top 20, right?

29:30Catherine Whitaker: Yeah. So, you know, kind of as soon as you've done that and you're Mira Andreva and you're so good, you're going to be winning other matches. You're in the WTA finals.

29:39David Law: The release came out today, I believe, with her and Noskova both in. Both in. So, yes, that press release hadn't reached her by the time she got to a press conference.

29:51Coco Gauff: I mean, Shiontek is on a nightmare tour, right? Or trying to be on a nightmare tour. She's one of the ones that's pushing for qualification.

30:03Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, it's kind of Mookova, Kostyuk, Shiontek. You know, they're kind of the ones who...

30:12Coco Gauff: Can we have all of them? I feel like the finals would be better with all of them in.

30:19David Law: Does somebody come as an alternate there? I mean, that's an interesting position to be.

30:25Coco Gauff: I mean, alternate is just a handsomely paid holiday, David. Yeah, I just don't think that would really be Shvante's vibe.

30:32Zheng Qinwen: No, you're right. It's not Shvante's vibe. I think it might be Kostiuk's vibe.

30:38David Law: I mean, most people, I would love it. It's definitely Katernitka's vibe. I was going to say, would you prefer that or being in the field? I mean, I would quite like that.

30:47Zheng Qinwen: I mean, it sounds absolutely fantastic. It's like being third-choice goalkeeper. I mean, we're offering. It's a dream career.

30:59Zheng Qinwen: Nikola Barton-Kova in the semifinals, Matt. Talk me through the week that she has had. Former fantasy team. She's finally coming. I signed her for pennies earlier in the season.

31:14David Law: You've chosen well there, Catherine, I'll tell you. Yeah, look, I was battling some pretty heavy internet issues during Barton Kovar Mukova, but what I did see is Mukova...

31:30Zheng Qinwen: Matt versus Virgin Media. Or Matt and Greg Rzedsky. Yeah, only one of us is tweeting about it. Yeah.

31:41David Law: but it's not just you having issues, Greg. And by the way, mine got sorted in 36 hours, not 12 days.

31:55So, yeah, look, Mookova, even at the end of the Osaka match,

32:01Catherine Whitaker: I thought she was hanging on physically. I couldn't quite tell what the issue was, whether it was just cramp or whether there was a bit of an injury there. But I think she was very physically drained and compromised going into this one against Barton Kovar. That said, Barton Kovar was unbelievable.

32:19David Law: I think this was one of the performances of the year, this match. It was unbelievable. I mean, just everything she was trying was just coming off. And she's got so much to try, hasn't she? That toolkit is... You know, stylistically, she's I don't think she's quite as elegant as Mukova. I don't think she's quite as stylish, I suppose. But maybe that's just personal opinion.

32:50Catherine Whitaker: But she's she's of the same mold in terms of playing with so much variety, so many options at her disposal. And yeah, it does feel like she's, you know, so many Czech players. but it does feel like she's most influenced by Mukova. So to then see her do that and deconstruct the Mukova game was pretty incredible. And I think just generally the way she's backed up the Sabalenka win has been really impressive to have won two more matches since then. It's something we don't see a lot, you know? Like a lot of players beat Sabalenka and then immediately lose in the next match. So the fact that she's done that and then won another one is great in itself.

33:31Catherine Whitaker: And I'm really intrigued by this matchup against Andrava. They met at the US Open just a few weeks ago, and Andrava won in straight sets, 6-2, 7-6. I do have a tie-break stat for you, Catherine. I didn't have the one that you asked for earlier, but I do have one here. Barton Kovar has lost 10 tie-breaks in a row. Gosh. Crazy, right? That takes some doing. That one that she lost to Mukovo. sorry that she lost to Andreva the US Open was her 10th tie break loss in a row and she hasn't played one since hasn't played one since she hasn't won one since the grass court season like what is going on there I suppose is my question like I don't really know I do think she doesn't have a brilliant serve I would say that is the one thing where I look at her game and I think there's real room for improvement there especially the second serve and in her match up against Andreva at the US open, Andreeva took her second serve apart and that was a big difference in the stat line for them.

34:37Catherine Whitaker: So whether she can protect that shot against Andreeva is going to be really interesting. Yeah, can't wait for that matchup tomorrow.

34:45Coco Gauff: Tire breaks in a row though, that's something's going on there.

34:51David Law: That makes you pause for thought, doesn't it really? That might change my mind as to who I think's winning.

35:01Zheng Qinwen: well predictions are next so do you need a moment to think about it

35:05David Law: no no okay

35:07Zheng Qinwen: off you go

35:08David Law: Androva

35:11Zheng Qinwen: what were you going to say before is Androva on your fantasy team day hang on I know she is because you were trying to flog her I was 48 hours ago sitting in that very seat you're sitting now you were offering all sorts in exchange who did I offer her for

35:28David Law: was it? Svjantek I think you wanted yeah yeah yeah I did Reggie saved you from yourself yeah I was trying to work out no no I decided to keep Andreeva that's right he wanted Andreeva for Svjantek and I was thinking yeah but Andreeva's definitely going to play WTA finals I'm not sure whether Svjantek is so I was trying to give him Kostiuk instead and he wasn't having that and then I offered Kostiuk for about three other players and then I offered Novak Djokovic for Svantec and he wouldn't have that either.

36:03David Law: That's how it played out. You're going Andrava. I'm going Andrava. Yeah, I mean, honestly, there were moments when, if I didn't know better, the look in Mook of his eyes was like, are you taking the piss with that drop shot? Because it was just unbelievable. Time after time.

36:20Coco Gauff: He was like, I should be doing that to you rather than you doing that to me. Who do you think you are?

36:25David Law: I'm sure she's too nice to actually think that but I also I mean I think there's can she do it again against somebody who likes to play this style of tennis in Androva as well and now this tie break record has really thrown me so I'm definitely going Androva Yeah

36:49Coco Gauff: I'm a big believer in the Barton Cove Barton Cove game But the match-up there does worry me a bit for her. I think that makes me lean more Andreeva. But I don't know, Barton Kovar on a roll, she's my gal. What do you think, Matt?

37:10Catherine Whitaker: I would go Andreeva, considering that she just beat her a few weeks ago. I do think the serve is a difference maker for Andreeva in that match-up. And generally, like, Andreeva can handle variety, can't she? Yeah. As you say, she's got the hands. It's just whether she can kind of stay calm enough, really. But I'm quite encouraged by the way that she did against Alexandreva. Just Andreeva.

37:41Coco Gauff: Have each of you seen enough from Barton Kovar to form an opinion about whether she's a likely major champion? Yeah. I don't want to be sort of glib about it. You know, winning Grand Slams is frigging hard. We had a question in our Friends live show on Wednesday night about the fact that none of Coco Gough, Igor Shontek or Irina Sabalenka had won a major title this year. Like those three great players, like it is so hard. And we are, we and all people that make a living out of having tennis takes are always dishing out future Grand Slam champions.

38:27Zheng Qinwen: You know, it's really easy to dish out future hypothetical Grand Slams to people, isn't it? Some people are given. No trouble. In a row. Exactly. So I don't, you know, I'm very aware of all of that.

38:41Coco Gauff: but does it look like she has it in her to you?

38:49David Law: I don't know. I think her skill set is really exciting for this stage of her career, but I feel like I need another year looking at her. And also I do think when you reel off that tiebreak stat, that doesn't bode well. You know, you need more than just skill. I've really speak to you with that. You see, the thing is, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Barton Kovar goes and wins Beijing, like wins the whole thing. I know I've picked Andreeva, but I do feel like at the end of the year, sometimes somebody comes out who's got loads of talent and who's fresher than everybody else and just blitzes it.

39:33David Law: I wouldn't be surprised.

39:34Zheng Qinwen: Boko, last year. Yeah, but I do think it's different at slams

39:39David Law: because I think people have worked out how to peak at majors and she isn't one of them yet because she's so new. I think she's really exciting and really different, but I'm not at the sort of I think this is a Grand Slam champion stage yet.

39:58Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, I share that.

40:00Zheng Qinwen: David's learned lessons there.

40:02David Law: Yeah, that was unusually mature of me, wasn't it? That was real growth. yeah i feel like need to see more of her at majors and majors are hard to win if i'm not sure i should definitely err on the side of right yeah um and i think maybe there's something to be said

40:22Catherine Whitaker: for putting that game together in really high pressure situations like a tie break you know and maybe that is just going to be something that she needs to to figure out but it's you know it's not it's not an easy game to know exactly what to do with it because she's got so many options at her disposal and i think sometimes sometimes the best players in the in the big moments simplify the sport and that might be something that she needs to figure out a little bit so and i just don't feel like as much as i've watched her this year i just don't feel like i have a handle on on how she sort of deals with those biggest moments in the sport, I suppose, which is what the Grand Slams test.

41:08Catherine Whitaker: But I think that's probably what next year is for. You know, like we'll find out a lot more about her. She was ranked outside the top 100 at the start of the year, wasn't she? Like the fact that we're even having this conversation shows you how well she's done.

41:21David Law: We bought ourselves some time there, Matt.

41:24Catherine Whitaker: Always.

41:25Zheng Qinwen: Remember when David bought himself five years to have an Emma Adekanu take? That was a good bit of business from David.

41:34David Law: I gave myself five years for, was it five years for Carlos Sourcrest to win the French Open? When we first saw him and he beat it by two and a half years.

41:45Zheng Qinwen: Yeah, we put an iCal entry in.

41:46David Law: Yeah. Then we came across it and we're like, what's this about?

41:51Zheng Qinwen: He's already done it. Right. We'll be back on Monday to talk about how Beijing plays out. Elisa Mertens could have done the double by then. She's also in the double semifinals, partnering Deanna Schneider. They're taking on Dafani in the semis. So we'll let you know how that pans out in Monday's show. Dead to me, Mertens, in that match. That's it for part two. We'll be back in part three to talk about the ATP in Shanghai. State fair food is getting smaller and pricier. We'll have room for fried cookies. Okay, you never overspend on food. What's your deal? What's his deal? He went to Metro and got$450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy A37 5G for free.

42:40And no activation fees. Free phone? Oh, sign me up. Get that more for your money feeling. Only on Metro by T-Mobile. Free or number and activate$40 period plan. $450 based on device discount waived activation fee. Not available if with Metro or T-Mobile in the past 180 days. With almost half a million customers and over a trillion dollars of secure payments, Bill isn't new to intelligent finance. It's the proven way to simplify Bill Pay and maximize cash flow. Want to learn more? Visit Bill.com slash proven for a special offer.

43:14Coco Gauff: Welcome back to part three of today's tennis podcast. Heading to Shanghai now in the ATP 1000 event that is underway there. Novak Djokovic.

43:24Zheng Qinwen: David, should have taken your advice. Cashed in after his Beijing triumph. What on earth was he thinking? He went to Shanghai. He lost to Hubert Hercatch.

43:36David Law: Yeah, you just know that at the end of Beijing, he was walking around with his pumped T-shirt on. By the time he got to Shanghai, he'd got to cut the faff one on instead. Because this is faff. I don't need it on my CV. um no i mean look he i think he was probably buzzing and um and he loves china and he loves shanghai and he came out to an incredible hero's welcome again and then hubert her catch played out of his mind um and was just middle in the ball and they were having some incredible rallies i mean i i thought that the jokovic timing was there but just the what you have to go through to beat somebody in really good form that has a serve like her catches ain't much fun and i don't think there was enough resilience left in the tank for novak jokovic to to be dealing with today and all credits to her catch first time he's beaten him and he was brilliant he was absolutely brilliant but i do feel like this is it's just a bit too much to ask jokovic at this stage of his career to have a week like he's just had and then say right go on do it again

44:58yeah there was a time when i was working on a hubert herkach big three grim reaper theory when he when he beat federer wimbledon he beat nadal in rome and now he's got a win on hard courts over 39 year old coming off a title kind of exhausted know about Djokovic like he's he's done the triple now he's got all of those wins um but it did feel as as David described he was playing really well

45:30Catherine Whitaker: her catch and Djokovic didn't have that inner resilience I do think he's quite serious about trying to play the ATP finals. He seems it, doesn't he? I do think that was also part of his reason of why he went to Shanghai. I think he thought, okay, maybe I can win a few matches there. And then he said, I'm going to play Paris. And that's the one he's going to play before the ATP finals. That is when the race ends this year. The event after Paris no longer counts to the ATP finals. It's actually Stockholm this year, which is in that week. Athens is not on the schedule anymore. So Paris is it. And look, if he wins Paris, he does.

46:15Catherine Whitaker: He's won it a lot.

46:16David Law: He's playing the hits at the moment, I think. He's getting to go because he loves the vibe. They really receive him well.

46:22Catherine Whitaker: Yeah, it's very different scheduling to what he's done recently, like playing a bit extra, chasing points, trying to play the ATP finals. But I think he has, maybe he feels like he has to take advantage of the moments where he is feeling good and playing well given some of the issues that he's had this year. Yeah, so God, the tennis tour comes at you quickly, doesn't it? I was kind of looking forward to a few more days of Novak Djokovic once I knew he was in the draw, but then to see him as he was, I thought, oh, he's not going to go that far here, and he's already out.

47:01Zheng Qinwen: Speak now, raise your hands if you're surprised at Flavio Caboli losing to Adrian Manorino.

47:10David Law: He lost the first set 6-1. Again, how many times has he lost the first set 6-1 in the last two months?

47:16Zheng Qinwen: Oh, Flavio. He's lost he's lost 10 times this year in his first match of a tournament. Ugh. 10 times and he's probably going to qualify for the HGP finals. Like, he's And they really need it.

47:32Coco Gauff: Like, that's thinner.

47:33Zheng Qinwen: Like, it would be a if that event doesn't have an Italian. Yeah, because they've been banking on an Italian. Yeah, I feel like there's quite a lot of... Yeah, I mean, at least one. I feel like there's quite a lot of pressure on Flavio to be the guy there. And losing to Adrien Manorino is not it. Manorino seemed pumped. He was. He did a weird celebration at the end. I don't know what all that was about. Tequila? On the match point, he had Caballi running all over the court. I mean, literally every corner of the court Caballi had to go to. And Manorino was just placing the ball around.

48:17I actually would say that he needs to just perhaps trust the points he's got and have a little bit of a rest and try and have one more good tournament so that he can actually play well in Turin.

48:32Zheng Qinwen: And that is what he does, isn't it? He has one great tournament and then flops.

48:37Catherine Whitaker: You know, he's in a much better position than, for example, Mazzetti was in last year. He's not like chasing that final spot. He would have to be overtaken by a few guys. But right now it also feels like even if he gets there, he could be bad.

48:53Zheng Qinwen: He could be a massive flop, yeah. Could be really bad. And David, your new Fantasy League team signing, Arthur Ferry, Tarvat out, Ferry in. Heartbreak for you and Arthur over three hours and 30 minutes today against Keren Hashinov.

49:14David Law: Yeah, he had the full Keren Hashinov experience today, did Arthur Ferry. You know, he went to war and he battled it out and he took him into a third set. somehow leveled the match, having lost the first set on the tiebreak, wins the second on the tiebreak. I'm thinking, well, good for you, Arthur. You know, I don't give you much chance in the third, but that's a good effort, that. And then he goes four to up in the third set, and he's flying. And then he gets cramped. And then Khashanov looks fine. I mean, to be honest, at the end, Khashanov wasn't fine. I mean, it's three and a half hours. He was so relieved to win this match, and he said it was like playing a Grand Slam match, really.

49:59David Law: It felt like best of five. Three tie breaks, you know, real physical contest. But yeah, Ferry's having to learn a little bit about what this tour is like, courtesy of Karen Hachinov. And I feel like all young players coming up have to run that gauntlet at some point. But yeah, credit to Hachinov. He just keeps on winning matches like that. Tough as old boots.

50:28Coco Gauff: I feel like, you know, getting into, being in the main draw, beating Marin Cilic in round one, losing a tight one against Karina Hushnov, where you learn a lot about the tour in your game. That's kind of good stuff for Arthur Ferry, really.

50:46David Law: I wasn't expecting it to be anything like this, that close. certainly like I said there were just moments you're thinking okay now he's going to go away and even when he was cramping he still got it to the tie break

50:59Coco Gauff: I don't think he does go away I think that's one of his yeah that was a real trademark through Wimbledon wasn't it

51:07Catherine Whitaker: how good he was in some of those long matches and also apparently Shanghai is playing a lot faster this year remember last year there was a lot of complaints about how slow it was and it was so hot and everyone sort of hated it apart from Vachero and Rindekanesh. But this year they have sped it up. Djokovic was talking about that. He said it was very different speed to Beijing. He said that it was kind of the surface where one break can make a big difference, especially playing a guy like Hercatch. The only guy I've heard not agree with the take that it's faster this year is Daniil Medvedev, who says he feels like it's very slow and doesn't feel any different.

51:51And he was surprised to learn that it is apparently faster.

51:55Zheng Qinwen: And he is a hard court specialist. So, right, he should know. He should know. We should take him at his word.

52:02Coco Gauff: Ben Shelton won his first match since the US Open final. Of course, he didn't play Lover Cup. He did play Davis Cup, but lost both his singles matches there to Menchik and Lehechka. He won his opener against Daniel Altmaier. Alexander Zverev, trucks on, survived a fall en route to beating Wu Yibing in his opening match.

52:30Catherine Whitaker: Yes, he almost rolled his ankle at the baseline, but just managed to stop going over on it. And honestly, Wu Yubeng played really well. I really enjoy watching him play. He's got such a fast arm. And they brought up a stat at one point that Wu was hitting his forehand 11 kilometres fast an hour than Zverev. And he was 15 kilometres an hour faster on the backhand. He was the one making the plays, going for it. But Zverev's pretty comfortable in that situation. he's very very good at winning these matches he lost his break in the second set Zverev but was generally serving well and managed to get through the second set tie break and win in straights which I think given just the sheer number of matches he's played all season really but especially recently I feel like straight sets wins are kind of important for him to just keep the tank as full as possible But yeah, he wasn't really impressive, but the result is.

53:46Coco Gauff: Ray Sakamoto with the upset over Andre Rublev in Chinese wildcard. Zhu Zhou Yi, not a player I had heard of before this week. He beat Lorenzo Mazzetti in a final set tie break just after you'd signed Mazzetti to your fantasy team, Matt. Yep. Mind you, if you told me that Mazzetti won't lose serve in his opening match, I'd think, great, he's going to cruise through. But no, he managed to not lose serve, but lose two tie breaks. He had triple set point in the first set. He had a love 40 in the deciding set that he didn't capitalize. And then he played an absolutely horrible final set tie break. But credit Yi Zhou, who is young.

54:39He's outside the top 250, I think.

54:41Catherine Whitaker: I wasn't blown away with his ground strokes. I'll be honest. Once they were in rallies, Mazzetti definitely had him. But he served really well through the match, hence why I think he managed to get himself to a couple of tie breaks. And he also came forward quite a lot and won some sort of quick-fire exchanges up at the net, which was quite exciting. and he'd also beaten Mattia Balucci in the previous round in a final set tie break and his other sort of notable win on tour was in Chengdu last year where he beat Cameron Norrie in a final set tie break. So perhaps Barton Kova needs to have a little chat with Yi Zhu just about how to play these tie breaks because he has got them down.

55:28Zheng Qinwen: Do you want to tell everyone who you sold in order to buy Lorenzo Mazzetti? I sold Amanda Nissamova, who has shut her season down. So it's not going to be playing any more matches.

55:44David Law: Where's loyalty, Catherine?

55:47Zheng Qinwen: Quote, it's what she would want me to do. I had the first pick in the draft at the start of the season and I used that pick for Amanda Nissamova. That is loyalty. That was just silly.

56:03Zheng Qinwen: well yeah probably to be fair it probably is what she would want you to do i had the last pick didn't i remember yeah who did you go for yes can't remember uh andreva i think i think i went

56:17David Law: for andreva yes okay she's been i actually don't think first pick in the draft is what you want because then you get you know then you get what like 20th pick as well yeah and then a lot of The good ones have gone.

56:30Zheng Qinwen: Being middle of the draft is good, I think. Yeah, but there's my excuse. Yeah. David's top of the standings, folks. Someone's got to topple him. It's not going to happen.

56:48David Law: Even Berg's won when I drafted him in. I know, I flogged Zizou.

56:53Zheng Qinwen: David, I traded Zizou Berg's for Kaurantan Mute. that was slight of hand from me that I thought it would be fun to have Moutet throughout Paris it's fun and I just don't get any points Burg's has been a disappointment this year I thought he was a bit better than he has been but he's got a great dog so no hard feelings Zizou David just last bit of business

57:22Coco Gauff: from the ACP before we wrap up for today picking up on something whom we were talking about in our last show, the default for Daniel Medvedev in Beijing in his semi-final against Novak Djokovic, contrasting that with a similar, if not, well, frankly, to the eye, quite a lot worse instance of racket abuse from Terence Atman in his match in Shanghai qualifying against Bernard Tomek, for which he was not defaulted because there was no, there happened not to be any harm to anybody in the crowd as there was in the Daniel Medvedev incident. You contacted the ATP about this. What have they had to say?

58:10David Law: Yeah, I wanted to know, frankly, why he wasn't defaulted, given that that was one of the worst examples of racket abuse and endangering people in his vicinity that I've ever seen. Just hurled this racket into the stands, sending it like a helicopter into the seats halfway up the stadium. That has been really widely shared on social media and criticized. And he didn't get defaulted. He didn't hit anybody. Anyway, I asked why, and I was just told ultimately it comes down to a judgment call from the chair umpire to call the supervisor with the concern and then the ultimate decision comes from the supervisor so i mean look i've followed up and i've asked well why didn't they default him i i haven't actually had a response to that yet and i you know and i'd really like to know you know and i think it is happening how are these how are these sort of umpires assessed afterwards um because i don't see how any right-minded person cannot think that that shouldn't have been a default you know and um so i i'd love to know a bit more really a little bit more transparency a little bit more insight as to why decisions are getting made and and and what the governing body thinks about some of the decisions that are being made in that instance.

59:43Or whether, no matter who's at fault,

59:46Coco Gauff: whether the governing body thinks there is an issue with the landscape as it currently is surrounding ball and racket abuse. It doesn't necessarily need to be about placing blame, does it? But, like, can we all agree that this isn't ideal? Yeah. And go from there. And it's obviously not just the ATP. it's all three governing bodies but of course everybody will have to come to their own decisions in their own sweet individual time ok we will keep you posted on David's comms with the ATP on that matter and we'll be back on Monday with our next show for any updates about that and of course everything that has happened in the tennis world over the weekend folks

1:00:39Zheng Qinwen: We have two mascots for today's show. They are repeat mascots. They are two of my faves. They are Tito and Spritz, and they are owned by Sean Frost. Tito is four, Spritz is three. They are long-haired chihuahuas and patrollers of Greenwich Street in Lower Manhattan. They love all humans and, unfortunately, few dogs. They perk up when they hear Billie Jean come over the speakers when the podcast is playing at home or in the car, which I think has happened a couple of times in tonight's show. So I hope Tito and Spritz enjoyed that. They dream of one day sneaking into the Billie Jean King National Tennis Centre for Fan Week and taking in all the food.

1:01:23Zheng Qinwen: But for now, they'll have to be content chasing tennis balls around public parks. I love them so much. Look at their little faces. They're so great. I think it's Spritz on the right. He really looks like a teddy bear, doesn't he? Looks like a teeny tiny little teddy bear. Actually made friends with a couple of chihuahuas in the park today. Billie Jean was not into that.

1:01:59Zheng Qinwen: Much like Tito and Spritz, She's far more into humans than she is into dogs. She's neutral on other dogs, but very positive on humans. Thank you, Sean, for bringing Tito and Spritz back into our lives for tonight's show. That's really made my day. Hello to Bodhi, Maisie and Roger, our mascots. Hello to Greg, Chris and Jeff, our top folks and executive producers. Matt, let's have some shout outs.

1:02:29Catherine Whitaker: We have Brittany Hatting. Hello, Brittany. Hi, Brittany. Brittany is from North Dakota and says, like Brittany Tagliareni, who is representing USA in tennis at the Special Olympics and at the 2018 Special Olympics, won two gold medals. Amazing.

1:02:54Zheng Qinwen: That's good stuff, Brittany. That's so cool.

1:02:57Catherine Whitaker: I think knew that we would be struggling and gave us an excellent answer.

1:03:03Zheng Qinwen: Boy, do we appreciate that. North Dakota. I know that Bismarck is the capital of one of the Dakotas. Is it north or is it south? Well, I can tell you something about South Dakota as well that Brittany has said. So that will cover us off. because... It is, it's North Dakota. Bismarck, nailed it. Well done, Catherine. That is impressive. Sorry, Matt, carry on. I'm quite pleased with that. I can tell. I'm glad you know me now, though. Yeah. Well, now that you can, you know, use that knowledge, Brittany is going to her first ever tournament at the ATP Challenger coming up in South Dakota at the end of October.

1:03:57Wow.

1:03:58Zheng Qinwen: Who do we think is playing the South Dakota Challenger? Do you know what? I think Brittany has got a good chance of seeing Oliver Tarvitt.

1:04:08David Law: Well, you thought it was going to be good, Brittany. You ain't seen nothing.

1:04:13Zheng Qinwen: And if Oliver Tarvitt isn't playing that, what on earth is he doing? David's going to be writing to the LTA.

1:04:20David Law: Can he get in is the question.

1:04:22Zheng Qinwen: Brittany, have a great time. Let us know if you have Tarvit time in real life.

1:04:31Catherine Whitaker: And actually, I've just realised there's a link between our two shout-outs today because we also have Diana Spadafora. We know Diana. We know Diana. She has been in our predictions and she also guest edited our Tennis Reform episode earlier in the year. Brilliant. And Diana is going to her first live tennis in Vienna at the end of October. While she's visiting Vienna, it coincides with the tournament, and she's going to that, which is very, very special. You've been there, haven't you, Catherine?

1:05:08Zheng Qinwen: That's really cool. I went there for one day to do a Tie Break Tennis press conference for you.

1:05:16David Law: Thought so. Was that the year Marcus Willis played? Gosh, maybe. I know exactly what year that was, if that was the case.

1:05:29Zheng Qinwen: Was it 2016? What was Shoes Off the Wilbomb year? It has to be, right? It can only be in 2016. Surely come Vienna 2017, you were signing Marcus Willis off. With my one day in Vienna. Diana, thank you for leading us down that rabbit hole.

1:05:53Zheng Qinwen: Okay, folks, that is it for today's tennis podcast. We are part of the Athletic Podcast Network. We will be back on Monday with our next show. Thank you all very much for listening and or for watching. And we will see you then.

1:06:48We'll be right back.

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