Are we set for another Spain v England final?

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1:05Today, in Dallas, well, well, well. Spain gave France a 2-0 Bastille Day beating to march into the World Cup final. We discuss what De La Fuente did and Didier didn't, and how Spain and this clash with Mbappé proved the real dictators. Plus, we get the latest news ahead of Wednesday's other semi-final. Reckon you know who's in that one. Tuesday afternoon in Los Angeles. It's totally at the World Cup, where we've just witnessed Spain having their annual semi-final victory over France. Joining us to discuss that and more, Tom Williams and Tim Spears. Hello to you both. Hello, James. Hello. Hello.

1:45All good? Very good. Warm. It is warm here. It is warm, but it's not unpleasant. Yeah. Possibly warm where you are as well. Spaner. How about that Spain, Tim? Yeah, I guess defences do in tournaments, as the old adage goes. Also scoring two goals. Yeah, absolutely. One of them by a defender. Yeah, but I guess it kind of felt like the theme of the match was they, you know, they muzzled this French attack that we've been raving about for weeks on end. Who could stop them? How could they be stopped? Well, you know, just keep the ball. How's the result going down in France, Tom? A lot of disappointment, as you'd expect.

2:23A degree of bewilderment as to how France could have performed quite so badly. I mean, you go back to the last World Cup and there was a similar level of bewilderment about how they could have played quite so badly for the first 80 minutes of the final against Argentina. On that occasion, they rallied at the end and we had one of the greatest football matches ever. Today, the rally did not come. All right. Any L 'Equipe player ratings? L 'Equipe player ratings have dropped. Give you some select highlights. Stand-up performers for France were Jules Koundé, Deo Upamekano, as the American commentator here has been pronouncing his name, and Adrian Rabiot.

3:02They got a five out of ten. Oh, they got the highest? Worst performers, Luca Digne, Ousmane Dembele, Michael Alisse, only a two out of ten. L 'Equipe's star man for Spain were star men plural even were Dani Olmo and Pedro Porro both got an 8 a 2 out of 10 in context how bad is that for L 'Equipe to give you a 2 out of 10? pretty bad you don't get many ones and you get vanishingly few zeros you have to do something morally reprehensible to get a 0 so a 2 is bad what did Didier Duchamp get? he got a three he got a three yeah for his last I mean he's obviously still got the third place playoff to come but he'll always have that he'll always have that but his last meaningful match as France coach and yeah he's gone out with with quite the whimper I think that's spot on for Alisa but and you know he he might even admit himself that if you chart his performances from I don't know the start of last season to now have we seen him be less effective so you know and subbed off and you know we said he'd been the difference maker for France and yeah he didn't turn up and where are they now where are they now we'll get on to the game in more detail very shortly but perhaps you'd enjoy a moment of the day from Tom and Tim I know I would Tom why don't you begin I'm going to go for Pedro Porro's goal oh yeah 58th minute of the game Spain already 1-0 up and France are not managing to lay a glove on them.

4:36And Spain scored this beautifully constructed goal. Porro pops a pass in to Dani Olmo, who gets clattered from behind by Dao Pemikano, but manages to flick the ball around the corner. And I think Desiree Douai had just come on for France, should have tracked Porro's run, didn't. Porro runs into the box and very neatly slots the ball past Mike Mignon. And, you know, one of a number of Tottenham players who were enjoying quite successful World Cups after a less than successful season. I mean, Porro is arguably the best right back at the entire tournament. That's the second goal that he scored today.

5:10And the moment it went in, you kind of thought, well, this is probably it. And so it proved. That's the ball game. Tim, what about you? What was your moment of the day stroke? You can have the rest days as well. Yeah, I tend to be picking non-football moments for these, but that's fine. Sure, yeah. So I went to Taylor Swift's house just to see if she was in. she's on honeymoon apparently okay um but yeah so i i embarked on a hollywood bus tour all right if you're watching the video version we now got a picture of was that the bus you were on that's the bus we're on and is that you clarified that you went on a bus tour because initially that's just went to a house had a look yeah normal behavior yeah the security guards who were there full-time do move you on if you sort of linger okay um but yeah we're on this said bus here uh and taken up in the hollywood hills to see where all the celebs live and you know their huge house it was quite interesting I found the most interesting part like who lives next to who so Rihanna and Paul McCartney are neighbours right they've done a song together apparently which came from one of them wandering to each other's house just to knock on the door he wanted a cup of sugar ended up with a hit record we've all been there we've all been there and the other one would be Tarantino and Sacha Baron Cohen are neighbours which feels like quite a meeting of minds have they ever worked together not yet maybe in his last film Tom and I live across the corridor which is where so much of the great content comes from.

6:29And you've moved in as well now, Tim. Yes. Well, what's going to happen in the next few days? So much creativity in the air. Any other highlights from the Hollywood bus tours? Pharrell's$17 million mansion is up for sale. Okay. We couldn't get close to it. It's like a huge glass-fronted building. In many ways, Tim, in many ways. With a recording studio. And, yeah, no, it was great. We went to the Walk of Fame to see all the stars on there. Oh, right, okay. The thing as well. There's one particular star which is very scuffed up and has been vandalised. Which one's that? An awful lot. That's the President's star.

7:03Oh, has he got one? Yeah, someone took a pickaxe to it a couple of years ago, I think. Really? Yeah, it's not in the best state. Crikey. Well, which did... I went for Simon Cowles, but then security sort of dragged me away. Oh, he's got one. Okay, there you go. That was Moment of the Day, a vintage edition, actually, I think, of that. Looking forward to what you come up with after the next set of rest days. but next let's get on to a proper forensic analysis of how Spain did France this time.

7:35Relatively even and star in Dallas between France and Spain and then Luca Dean gives away that penalty and a team that was set up to defend and hit on the break suddenly found themselves having to change their game plan and didn't. I think does that sum up kind of what happened to France France eventually, you mentioned Pedro Poro, about an hour in, finishes them off with that lovely team move. But it wasn't even close, was it? No, it wasn't. And I mean, it's probably an obvious thing to say, but the worst possible start against a team like Spain, who are so good at just dominating possession, but particularly for France.

8:11This is the first time at the tournament that France had fallen behind. And all their previous games, OK, there were games where they had to grind things out. But certainly in the early phases of the tournament, in the group phase and around the 32, they get the first goal and then they can just pick you off on the counter-attack. And they do that better than almost everyone. But they can't do that if they have the lead. And so conceding such an avoidable goal, you know, Luka Dean, I think everyone watching, you could see the danger. It's a cross comes in from the left and Dean kind of, the ball like springs up off the turf at him.

8:43And he kind of heads it up and then sort of is kind of like, you know, pulling back his leg for this slow motion clearance down the pitch. And, you know, Jamal gets in. And then as soon as Spain had the advantage, everything France did just played into their hands. And I think fundamentally what this France performance spoke to was like the absence of any great idea to their football. You know, Didier Deschamps' basic thinking is you have a very solid defensive structure. you add on four of the best attacking footballers in the world you let them do their thing and most of the time nine times out of ten it works but you come up against a proper coherently structured team who don't take risks even when they're in possession you're likely to struggle and I think that's what happened do you think if they hadn't conceded the early penalty it would have been any different or was Spain just another level France were having the odd moment here and there they were having those very very quick sort of transitions in Spain's half not proper counter attacks because Spain just weren't giving them the room to do that but there were these little darts that Mbappe was making and it was sort of relying on Benay Simon to come out and stop them to be honest I thought he was one of Spain's best players as a sort of a sweeper keeper but yeah the penalty obviously changed the game neither team had been behind in the tournament it was an annoying penalty really it's not like it's an I don't it's an accidental collision I don't we don't really want games almost decided by those in Walker's so far, but he has to give it he does absolutely clatter him some numbers about the French performance first off they had two shots, not on target, and an XG of 0.04 and then after 90 minutes the mighty French had managed three shots on target, but an XG of 0.3, which is their lowest XG in a World Cup match since 1966 since record keeping began.

10:40Michael Olisse subbed off so ineffective had he proved. OK, so what does Spain do to shut France down like that? I think a lot of it comes to the way that Spain build up when they have the ball. They are very careful not to commit too many players beyond the ball. And something that we've seen with Spain quite a lot of this tournament is they score quite a lot of goals from cutbacks. And that's because the entire team moves up and down the pitch together. They're not just committing players forward and attempting risky passes. And it means that even when they lose possession, they're very well set up to snuff out opposition counterattacks.

11:17As Tim was saying, France had a couple of half openings in the first half, but next to nothing in the second half. And I think an awful lot of it is just to do with the very coherent way that Spain managed space and the way that they are constantly thinking beyond the next turnover of possession. I don't think you saw very frequently at all situations where France turned over the ball and suddenly found themselves with a numerical advantage. Spain just get players around the ball very effectively. And when you're up against a team like France who are so dependent on being able to counter-attack and being able to attack space, it's a really effective way of playing.

11:58I mean, the XG number you mentioned, 0.04, that actually lasted to 63 minutes. so whatever Deschamps said at half time clearly didn't work which so it felt to me like he was clueless as to how to to change the patterns of play you know France had had like occasional difficulties against deep line defenses for periods of matches earlier in the tournament but they had so much of the ball and so many avenues of attack that it was always inevitable that they would win whereas whereas here against a fairly deep line defense they didn't really have the ball so there's just so few opportunities to attack and then by the end they're just taking pot shots from range and obviously Alise completely subdued so what else were they going to do and those the three shots on target the first one arrives in the 81st minute after Unai Simon comes out of his area Dwayne flushes attempt to lob him and the other two were Ousmane Dembele shots right at the end the first time that Simon was really worked and that was you know that was the extent of it and by that point the game is basically over already and they'd both been teams that have dominated possession throughout the tournament so it was going to be who can keep the ball better and what you're going to do better with it.

13:00And I think you'd said, Tom, a few days ago, that, you know, how do you beat France? Well, one way is you frustrate them and you keep the ball from them. Good question now. How do you beat Spain? One or two of the players that we should highlight beyond Pedro Poro and Simon, who you mentioned, one would be Rodri, who people have commented about how he's not back to the player he was, but he looks something pretty close in this game, no? Yeah, something approaching his best form. Just his positional sense and his calm sort of reflected the whole team really it was a it was a spanish football performance not just this spain team but that's how spain win matches that's how spain win tournaments um it was it was a masterclass and you know they've been so bullish for weeks on end now saying that they're going to win this tournament and they lead up to the game and but they've completely backed it up you know it was a proper de la fuente masterclass i mean they play like a club team i think that's almost the ultimate compliment you can pay them.

13:55There are very good international teams at this tournament who play like international teams. You could probably put France in that bracket. Spain play with a coherence and a sense of what they're supposed to be doing that you find very rarely at this level. Also, the use of Poro is interesting. I was at the Belgium game for the quarterfinal and Umar was running down a lot of cul-de-sacs. They would put two or three on him, exactly as France did today. Again, they would have two or three on him every time. I remember thinking to myself during the during the belgium game why is poro not on the overlap here to really help him out i felt like a deliberate sort of ploy to hold him back and sort of lull belgium into false insecurity having watched today's game because it's very similar because he pops up on the overlap to create their equal like create their opening goal against um belgium and then here today we hadn't seen too much of him on the overlap at all and after what was it 55 minutes he sort of pops up and France weren't expecting him to be there because he was the only player that they then didn't track when he plays the one two so it just it just makes you think are they deliberately sort of holding him back and making the opposition defense think no we'd have to worry about Porro it's just Yamal let's get two or three on him because that's the second time in two games now where he hasn't done much to start the game and then he pops up to be the difference maker like a Tottenham ruse everyone knows he plays for Tottenham they're probably not going to pay that much attention to oh my god he's in the penalty area how's that happened Spain making their way through to their second ever World Cup final.

15:20They've done it so far without needing, I think their best player, La Minna Mar, but they've done it with the strength of the collective or Yatabel, Poros, so many other elements. How do then you beat Spain? Well, when you've got to score first, I think that would probably be key. I mean, there's, you know, the way that they saw the game out having been ahead today as they have been throughout the tournament. I mean, we haven't really seen what I'd call weaknesses, but Belgium got some joy. Belgium the only team to score against them of course by being a bit more direct Doku would often pick up the ball from deep and sort of run at them from a deeper position than France were picking the ball up today they would also go long to the front man which is not something that we really saw from France today so that's a couple of avenues that Belgium had limited joy and created some chances and scored a goal and did have them on sort of the ropes or leaning against them slightly for parts But otherwise, you're not really seeing weaknesses.

16:18Who do you think of Wednesday's semi-finalists would give them a bigger problem? I think Argentina have got a similar style of play. It's not quite as advanced, I don't think. But Argentina like having the ball, like controlling their matches, like to slow the tempo down. England are more similar to France, I think, in that they are more of a counter-attacking team. Harry Kane dropping deep and Bellingham running beyond and the wide players running beyond as well so I think it would be it would probably be more interesting as a kind of clash of styles to see Spain v England but then we saw Spain being in at the last Euros it's getting boring now well Spain v England was the final of the men's Euros it was also the final of the women's Euros it was also the final of the women's World Cup and the men's under 21 Euros so yeah a bit of a run going there but it would be more interesting from a sort of a clash of the titans point of view for Spain to play Argentina I think because they've both got these incredible tournament records where Argentina under Scaloni two Copa Americas in the World Cup and Spain now with Euros Nations League getting to another final here and yeah the only game they've lost in a tournament under De La Fuente was well it was on penalties to Portugal in last year's Nations League so it's the two ultimate tournament teams I mean that might make for a quite a dull match but um it would be a fascinating.

17:36It'll be proper. Head to head. Yeah, it'll be proper. It'll be more proper. England are sort of, you know, the Andy Murray of the last four. Let's be honest. You know, they're always sort of there at their backs but they don't win much. Andy Murray, who famously loves being compared to English sporting institutions. So he'll be well on board with that. Well, they'd both be great finals. I think we can say that. Which are we more likely to get? We'll have a quick look forward to Wednesday's Clash in Atlanta next.

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20:29Have you called now Italy's record of 37 straight games I'm beating? Yes, something like that. I think the final is where they would beat it. If they win, they're going to be facing either England or Argentina. So that's happening in Atlanta on Wednesday. Freshly arrived there in the state capital of Georgia is Jack Pitbrook. A short time ago, he spoke to us. Jack, welcome to the show. So you're in Atlanta ready for the semifinal. You've been with England through the highs of Mexico City, through the heat of Miami. How much do you think is left in the tank for these players?

21:08Jack Pitt-Brooke: Not a huge amount, I think, for either team. I think that both teams probably come into this physically and mentally exhausted. England's games have been pretty dramatic, all three of the knockout rounds. Argentina's games have been even more so, two of them going to extra time. And I think this is going to have a huge bearing on Wednesday's semi-final because I'm not sure how much either of these two teams still have left to give. Has Thomas Tuchel calmed down yet? Oh yeah, he was very calm. We're looking forward to his press conference, which is in a few hours, but everything I've heard suggests that he's pretty relaxed.

21:46Jack Pitt-Brooke: I think that the issue after the Norway game, I think both him and Bellingham were both in a state of extreme emotional and physical exhaustion, especially Bellingham, when they gave their post-match interviews. And I've written about this for The Athletic. I think that everything that they said has to be judged in that context. I don't think that there's necessarily a big rift or a big issue in the camp just because they both gave some fairly opinionated interviews under intense pressure at the end of the Norway game. Jack, there's been a lot talked about the atmosphere pre-game there and the security risks and that.

22:24What have you seen so far in Atlanta?

22:26Jack Pitt-Brooke: I've seen quite a lot of England fans, probably a few more Argentina fans. I haven't seen any issues. I think everybody is maybe a little bit on edge because of all the obvious factors that go towards this. I'm not sure how the stadium will handle it, given the lack of segregation and the fact that fans will be mixed in. But I hope it goes smoothly. and the limited amount that I have seen so far suggests that at the moment things are going smoothly. On the field, what do you think is going to be key in this game, Jack? I think that I'm a bit worried about whether Argentina might come in almost over-motivated.

23:05Jack Pitt-Brooke: I mean, they're so up for this game and of course, you know, it's a World Cup semi-final, of course you're going to be up for it. But I want, they seem to have these big emotional highs and lows in their games and that could be incredibly powerful, but at the same time, it's a strength that can also become a weakness. And I wonder if they do get a bit too overcommitted, if England might be able to pick them off. That said, England have, in every game they've played so far, England have had a really bad patch and they haven't, generally, they haven't been punished. And I think there's every possibility that if they have one of those bad 20 or 30 minutes on Wednesday where they lose their composure, it's totally plausible that Messi will just go bang bang bang and suddenly it's 3-0 so I think that I think this is going to be a chaotic game much less controlled than the first semi-final and I think it's very hard to make predictions about it I think a lot of people would see England as favourites for this game the better team but then Leo Messi so you never know but what do you think second World Cup final ever for England on Sunday I'd make England very marginal favourites I think they probably I think England probably have the physical edge by which I don't mean you know charging into tackles I mean the fact that England have just got more younger fitter players who can run more and I suspect that might I'm sure that England's plan is that that will eventually make the difference in the end and maybe they will be able to grind Argentina down that said that the Messi factor is such a it's such a kind of you it's such a unique thing right to have this brilliant player at the end of his career and the whole team cohering around him that I wouldn't be surprised at all if Messi scores the hat-trick and Argentina walk it.

24:44Jack Pitt-Brooke: I think everything is... Almost literally nothing would surprise me tomorrow. I think everything is on the table. Jack, Pitt, Brooke. So on the one hand, England are probably the better side, but on the other hand, Leo Messi. It's about the size of it, right? Yeah, like Argentina are such a fascinating team and seemed determined to live through so many different types of nail-biting circumstance in the knockout rounds of this tournament. So against Cape Verde, they tried going ahead and being pegged back, having to win at the death. Against Egypt, they tried falling 2-0 down and then having to come from behind and win it at the death.

25:27in the quarterfinal against Switzerland. They did the usual thing of going ahead, not playing, and then needing a worldie from Julian Alvarez in extra time to get themselves out of trouble. And you kind of feel like, oh, at some point, surely, they're just going to stop doing that. They're going to score first, take control. They seem to really relish having their opponent at arm's length, but not doing anything more to put the game to bed. I think an awful lot of their sense of footballing identity comes from their ability to do that. Like, yeah, we're only one goal up, but we don't need another goal because we are just better on the ball.

26:01They have all these players with very similar morphologies and playing styles just knocking the ball around together. And every now and again, that fires on them because they keep letting in goals when they should have put games out of reach. The kind of player that they don't have, everybody says, is a wide player, a Di Maria, something like that. And supposedly, if you're England and you're looking how to beat them, that's what you want to do, attack them down the flanks. Tim? I thought you were going to say Dan Byrne then when they're playing but I don't know. Well if we do see Dan Byrne tomorrow then that bodes very well for England obviously because he'll only be coming on if England are winning you would assume.

26:38But yeah I think in terms of England's prospects have beaten them they need to set the agenda in the match. They don't want to let Argentina dictate the tempo and get their passing game going. So I think in terms of playing with pace and width and this sort of brisk direct style um a switzerland had joy yeah with dan and doy particularly in the second half little little combination plays and one twos so i've seen i have seen a school of thought that uh marcus rashford is better suited to the dan and doy role as they're now calling it as opposed to gordon who gets to the byline but in in terms of the starting 11 there are quite a few selection issues for tuchel mostly around fitness you know in you can say it's a sort of world cup semi-final and you've got to throw everything at it and put your best team in even if they're sort of 70 fit but if you've got Rhys James at right back and and Rice in midfield and Saka as the right forward all kind of not at their best I think because England need to be quick direct and and dictate the tempo in this game I'd be concerned about having a few players who aren't that fit so they're gonna need they're gonna need honesty from the players I think in making these decisions as to how fat they are you can't have a situation where Declan Rice plays as he did the other night when he was walking through treacle clearly shouldn't have started that match he'd been ill for a few days and it almost sort of you know cost England in that game with sort of the sluggish first half that they had going behind etc they can't do that to Argentina you know have teams who aren't fit have players who aren't fit and they're sort of you know running through treacle again and Argentina get ahead because that's how they'll win the game so there are there are big decisions to make and what does he do about Messi hope for the best I imagine that there's got to be something more specific yeah well I mean England have got a lot of exceptionally mobile central midfielders obviously there is that slight concern about Declan Rice but you know him and Elliot Anderson working in concert in front of the back four that is the area where Messi operates we know that he drifts out to the right quite a lot so you know Nico O 'Reilly will have a job he's another very athletic player so I mean they shouldn't be they shouldn't be surprised by how Argentina seek to use Messi but Messi just has this ability to find space where there shouldn't be any and like the fact this is his first ever game against England which is incredible like why do Argentina have to worry about not one but two six goal scoring threats the first time that any team has ever had in the World Cup two players reach six goals Harry Kane and Jude Bellingham with Bellingham very much the man of the moment how do argentina deal with him can they deal with him well he's sort of he's got this sort of free role where he's just he's making his own runs to the box and ghosting in at the last minute and yeah if you don't if you if you're keeping too much of an eye on kane then you let your eye off bellingham and sort of vice versa um it's a it's a heck of a match to to be excited about it's amazing how almost every game these two teams play is of huge historical significance you know even the friendly they played 21 years ago is probably the best england friendly of this uh century in geneva when they've beaten 3-2 with two late goals from michael owen i think what we can't we can't underestimate um how impossible it's proved to beat argentina at major tournaments you know there's only saudi arabia that have managed it since the pandemic so it's yes england have probably got a level to go more than argentina to have but that still that still doesn't mean they're going to win for me but saudi arabia did it so you're saying there's a chance is it going to be another classic do you think tom in a way i find it more interesting than the spain france game i know everyone was saying oh this is the real final spain v france but the fact that england and argentina have both kind of like scrapped their way through this tournament have had these moments of real jeopardy and not just oh you know they were ahead and they you know they they conceded a goal and they had to sort of shore up they've had to come from behind they've had to you know they've had to cling on for dear life and you know the history between the teams as well to me it feels more I feel like there are more kind of subplots to this than there were to Spain France which had plenty of its own subplots but it just it feels that there's more there's more around this a lot of people felt Spain France could have been the final maybe the two best teams at the tournament but this certainly feels way more interesting as a clash and we'll we'll see how it all plays out you'll be back with us might have one or two other guests as well when we return straight after england argentina live we'll be doing a live stream it'll be on our youtube channel we do live streams on a sunday night with the premier league but we're it's quite a big game we'll do one here and we'll do one after the final as well so i'm guessing that'll be around half an hour after the final whistle to maybe 45 minutes or so do keep across our youtube channel and then here we are we'll pop up maybe the skunk will join us too who can say that would be fun wouldn't it wouldn't live skunk spotting anyway that's all wednesday whatever time zone you're in for now that's it for this totally the world cup so many thanks to tom and to tim and to jack pitbrook who joined us earlier the production crew and you see you tomorrow enjoy the game from all of us here it's goodbye