Arsenal take control of the title race as Forest & West Ham boost survival hopes

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1:48Mark Carey: The Athletic FC.

1:56Jack Lang: Totally Football Show. Today, Arsenal-Brighton sees Arsenal's title prospects, Brighton, as City's draw with Forest leaves the Gunners' gap with Guardiola growing. We talk Gibbs-White gobsmacking goal and more Wednesday news like the Hammers hauling in hapless Hotspur and the Magpies, a man down, still making it past Man U. Then we've got Felipe Luiz's Flamengo firing, some Fulham feels and, phew, the FA Cup fifth round in this Totally Football Show.

2:29Jack Lang: Thursday, it's 5th of March. Off we go with another Totally Football Show. Once again, Duncan Alexander is a big part of it. Hey, Duncan. Hello, James. We've got some fresh blood in the shape of Art de Rocher.

2:40Duncan Alexander: Good morning, everyone.

2:42Jack Lang: Art de Rocher. How are you doing, Art?

2:44Duncan Alexander: I'm all good, all good.

2:45Jack Lang: You recently returned from Brighton.

2:47Duncan Alexander: yeah about an hour or so uh got back so four hours sleep but i'm ready oh you stayed over yeah i stayed over it was i think a bit easier right um that way yeah with the right hey it's

3:00Jack Lang: a lovely place to be yeah wake up the sun glinting off the sea yeah exactly windows was open so yeah

3:06Art De Roché: it's all good i mean the sunrise is in the east and brighton faces south so i'm not sure it would glint off the sea at that time of day yeah you might have to walk out on the pier you'd have to start walking towards Hastings which I'm often doing yeah

3:20Jack Lang: okay Jack Lang's also here with us hey Jack hi James nice to see you and you been up too much um shaved your moustache

3:29James Richardson: was that big psychologically yeah yeah it felt a bit weird for a few days

3:34Jack Lang: I imagine it did

3:35James Richardson: keep catching myself in the mirror feels quite weird now

3:37Jack Lang: I've got to say okay well let's work through it we touched on moustaches the other day and they are big perhaps more than any other bit of facial furniture although I'm guessing if you shaved your eyebrows it would have a big impact too but they define the kind of recognition

3:50James Richardson: they define a perceived personality so much well okay i hope you i hope you can adjust i uh yeah first time in about six years i'm clean shaven really what happened why why uh there is a broadly coincided with having children oh yeah yeah yeah and i also look about 13 when i am

4:10Jack Lang: clean shaven so right i wouldn't go that far but hey yeah okay all right ah when was the last time

4:16Duncan Alexander: you were clean shaven to be fair one of my friends has recommended or said i should change it up a bit like oh yeah just because i always have this around art's got a kind of general growth and a

4:28Jack Lang: very nice one yeah you don't need to do anything to it yeah but that's the question that a lot of

4:33Duncan Alexander: men with beards face at some point yeah should i be styling this exactly so i don't know jack might be an inspiration. To have a moustache? Yeah, possibly. I think you'd have a certain

4:43Jack Lang: Billy Dee Williams flair with a moustache. Can I say that? Did you say it?

4:47Duncan Alexander: Yeah.

4:48Jack Lang: Orlando Calrissian.

4:49Duncan Alexander: My friend said a goatee, but I wasn't sure. That feels a bit out there.

4:54Art De Roché: I don't like a goatee. Do you not like a goatee? No. Duncan? Goatees feel like the worst of all the options. Okay. I think. Hmm. Yeah.

5:03Jack Lang: You ever had a beard, Duncan? Not a full beard, no. You ever been in a Turkish jail? Yes Indeed Did you have a good time watching Wednesday's games everybody Art you were down in Brighton For what proved to be a hugely significant If not hugely entertaining 1-0 win for Arsenal Others were watching other games There was the Man City match Which ended with a 2-2 draw Against Nottingham Forest That leaves Arsenal 7 points clear At the top of the table It also means that Forest are now level with their relegation rivals West Ham, who themselves on Wednesday won 1-0 at Fulham. It leaves West Ham still in the bottom three, but now they are only goal difference behind Forrest and only a point behind Tottenham Hotspur, who go on Thursday evening against Crystal Palace.

5:54Jack Lang: Good Lord. It was also a big night on Wednesday for the top five race. Man United losing away to 10-man Newcastle. Chelsea, meanwhile, coming from a goal down at Villa Park to crush Aston Villa 4-1. Jean-Pedro with a hat-trick. For now, that leaves United, Villa, Chelsea and Liverpool all separated by only three points, with Liverpool, the team, currently without a seat when the music stops.

6:17Art De Roché: I don't understand because we've got this, you know, nip and tuck two-team title race. We've got four teams battling for three Champions League places below there. And we've got one of the best relegation battles I can remember for a long time. And yet everyone keeps telling me this is a terrible Premier League season. So I must be missing something.

6:32Jack Lang: Hey, Duncan.

6:33Art De Roché: Nice.

6:33Jack Lang: Nice to get a bit of positivity. Indeed. All right, we're going to need that as we dive into our first game, which is Brighton Arsenal. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. Shuffled out wide for Kaio Saka to take on Cadioglund. Gets a shot away and it goes right through for a minute in. This title race may go down to the wire, but Arsenal are going to have a seven-point lead because Manchester City have dropped points and they know it. Well, there at the Amex was Art de Roucher. Oh, that must have been quite a moment at the end when the news came through on the many transistor radios.

7:15Duncan Alexander: Yeah, it was amazing. To be fair, it was the loudest cheer of the night, louder than when Pakaio Saka scored, louder when their own full-time whistle actually went too. And it was actually how I found out the Manchester City result. we hadn't even seen I guess the notifications come through on our phones on on our laptops and it's also how Arteta and his players found out so I think it's a memory that a lot of I guess people associated with Arsenal will cherish for a while because it's such an unusual thing to happen in a day and age where everyone knows what's going on all the time the way you're talking

7:50Jack Lang: art sounds like you think Arsenal have just won the title no I'm not gonna go that far just yet

7:55Duncan Alexander: because I also remember the 2011-12 season where I believe it was with maybe six games to go. Manchester United were eight points ahead and lost it on goal difference. So I'm not going to go that far, but it was a major, major, I guess, momentum swing that could help Arsenal.

8:15Jack Lang: Okay. The game itself, 1-0 to the Arsenal, but a performance that perhaps even George Graham would have found a bit of a slog.

8:22Duncan Alexander: If I'm being totally honest, I felt like it became more entertaining the longer it went on. Right. What? Because of the way Fabian Herzler had built up the game, it just felt like it was an event more than a football match. And in terms of the Premier League, I feel like it probably needed something like that in terms of actually giving this title race a moment because for too long, it's just felt like, it has felt like a slog for Arsenal. and this actually gave them I feel like more purpose to go to Brighton and really act as the villains that they were painted out to be what had he done ahead of the game so basically he'd spoken about the amount of time that Arsenal take over set pieces whether it's throw-ins goal kicks free kicks also he spoke about their I guess methods at corners blocking and that sort of thing So going into the game, I mean, the whole stadium was aware of what was going on.

9:25Duncan Alexander: He'd really done a good job of letting his fans know what to look out for. So whenever Arsenal had a throw in, which they had a lot in the first half, the boos just kept getting louder and louder. But again, to be honest, it felt like that actually worked in Arsenal's favour. They used it. Brighton's fans got more frustrated as the game went on, not just with Arsenal, but with their own players because their players would try and speed the game up but would make mistakes. I mean, there was a moment where Brighton tried to take a quick free kick, their player hits it into a teammate and it falls straight back to Arsenal.

10:02Duncan Alexander: Why would Arsenal do that? Funny. I mean, it was just, yeah, an insane way for the game to go but I think a really, really funny one.

10:14Jack Lang: Herzl's got a lot of stick for his post-game comments which fall a bit short of kind of well measured and sporting. I will never be the type of manager who tries to win that way. Arsenal are doing their own rules. But that does sound a little bit like good management to shape the battleground as it were. And also the team, Brian, didn't play badly apart from the finishing which is not really his fault I guess.

10:39Duncan Alexander: No, I feel like when you're looking at his post-match he also said that if Arsenal do win the league nobody's going to ask how they want it. So he knows the game. I think he just wants to be quite front-footed in what perception people have of what happened.

10:55Art De Roché: But I think people have forgotten how football works in a lot of ways. I certainly have. I mean, yeah. When Brighton got promoted to the Premier League they had Chris Heaton as manager and they played some of the most stodgy defensive football because they knew they had to just stay up and staying up and then they can then build and now they've become a better footballing team.

11:14Jack Lang: There's an allowance if you're in that position.

11:16Art De Roché: Yeah, but Arsenal haven't won the league for 22 years. We've seen what's happened in the last few seasons. Their desperate to get across the line. We can see they're nervous at points, but you can't blame them for grinding out wins. Last night, they won 1-0 in not a classic, but then City drew 2-2. A few weeks ago, when Arsenal drew 2-2 at Wolves, that was the biggest implosion ever seen. It's not really the same sense I'm getting from the City result.

11:41Jack Lang: Are City bottling it, Duncan? Maybe.

11:43James Richardson: I think this Herzler stuff is great just because there's been this low hum of journalists and pundits being a bit sniffy about Arsenal. And fair enough, I think they're not my favourite team to watch play. But then not many managers or actual names have broken cover. You've got Arna Slott, but he's kind of moaning about everything because he's in his own personal hell. But for Herzler to get involved and be like, oh, this is the wrong way to play football. Like it came very close to like, we did not resort to that. Like old school Premier League theatrics. And that's great for everyone because it's putting voice to what a lot of people are thinking.

12:21James Richardson: But it's also great for Arsenal because they get this massive like backs against the walls. Like we're doing it despite the critics. It's absolutely great all round.

12:31Duncan Alexander: Love it. I also think when you look at Arteta's response in his press conference, oftentimes he will stay away from any controversy involving another manager. I guess the most recent example is Liam Rossini after the warm-up gate, if you want to call it that, in the Carabao Cup last month. But last night, even though he was quite short with his answers, he did also say, take a look at Hertz's comments whenever Arsenal pray Brighton. But that doesn't mean that Herzl is wrong. It doesn't mean he's wrong. But what I took it as is it's nice to see that needle between managers because we haven't really seen it.

13:12Duncan Alexander: Whenever Arteta's asked about Pep, they're always very friendly. It was the same when Pep and Klopp were going at each other for the Premier League. So I feel like when you're looking at title races and moments, it's nice to have a bit of edge. It's a pretty thin edge. It is, but it's more than we've had. in recent years.

13:31Art De Roché: Gen Z edge, but it's fair. I mean, to be honest, when Herzl joined Brighton, we were told this was the sort of manager he was, and he did this quite a lot. We haven't really seen that much of it, but it is, you're right, it's fun, and it adds another little element to this definitely fun season.

13:46Jack Lang: All right, Mark Carey's in the waiting room looking to be admitted, but before we get to the Man City game, who is your favourite team to watch then? Not Arsenal, but who? All the games are on at the same time On all the channels Which one are you watching?

14:04James Richardson: Regardless of club

14:06Jack Lang: Which club is the one you go They'll be good

14:11James Richardson: Come back to me

14:12Jack Lang: What are you thinking about that? One Arsenal player is not taking his time To reach 300 games at least It's because Saka, he's only 24 Only 24

14:23Duncan Alexander: September birthday as well So he's one that kind of has the same age for most of the season which is actually quite nice from a writing perspective um but yeah when you i guess look at his goal uh yesterday i think it was a 0.01 xg seriously yeah he was only shot the first half exactly uh but what i liked about it was oftentimes this season it's felt like sometimes he got the ball on the right wing and he'll kind of just way up his options before doing something when he got the ball in that position um he just went for that space inside and took a shot on and in moments you need someone to just take initiative and he did that I think that's what he'd done when he first broke into the team he's been able to replicate that season on season he's had maybe uh fewer goals and assists this year but he's still a player that Arsenal can rely on and I think last night showed that and it was a nice moment I think he was the first person Arteta told the result and he was like, really?

15:27Duncan Alexander: So his disbelief was quite nice to see. And of course, he's recently signed a new contract with Arsenal. So for him to be the guy to step up, not just at Brighton, but with the first goal at Wolves as well, I think is quite a nice way for the past few weeks to have gone.

15:46Jack Lang: All right. Well, the disbelief based on the fact that City, ahead of their game with Forrester, have won six straight. Forrest had lost both of their games under their new manager, Vitor Pereira, in the Premier League. City had Erling Haaland back and it all looked like the game at the Etihad was going to be a bit of a foregone conclusion. It wasn't, though. Let's admit Mark to the chat and find out why.

16:12Mark Carey: This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Olly Kaye and the very best football writers around. Gibbs White pings it across the city half to Anderson.

16:28Jack Lang: Anderson and Hudson-Odoi play a 1-2. Yes! Anderson buries a low shot from outside the penalty area into the bottom corner. Knee slide from Elliot Anderson in front of the Forest fans. They are level again. Elliot Anderson equalising improbably for Nottingham Forest, a point that they held on to, a scoreline that they held on to, right through an interminable set of time added on minutes. Incredible chance right at the end as well. First of all, Mark Carey, welcome to today's Totally Football Show. You were just saying that you and I have differing views on the Elliot Anderson equaliser.

17:06James Richardson: We both definitely agree on the quality of the goal. Really thumped into the bottom corner. It was a really nice one too. I think it was Callum Hudson-Odoi that he sort of bounced it off and it was very much a pass with a message to say, you are giving this back to me immediately. I'm going to get it out of my feet and slot it into the bottom corner. I just thought it was Steven Gerrard-esque in its design. Okay. Which he used to do that quite a lot, is that the pass had a message on it and he obviously used to shoot with conviction. It's not that you disagree, was it Art? It's just more that aesthetically you think of a Gerrard goal as more maybe on the right side of the pitch and it was very much outside of the foot to start the one-two from the left side of the pitch.

17:44Jack Lang: before curling it into the bottom right right again as needle it's not really i know yeah it

17:49Duncan Alexander: probably speaks to how much me and art disagree yeah yeah i mean me and mark have these conversations all the time so i i think it came down to just the aesthetics really because i came in and said oh yeah that goes a lot like cunha's against arsenal in january so we have an agreement there i'm outnumbered i come in i parachute in i'm already outnumbered it's fine the other forest

18:12Jack Lang: goal is there anyone you can compare that to the extraordinary backheel nutmeg from morgan gibbs

18:16Duncan Alexander: white tiara murray against charlton really it's it's again not aesthetically not aesthetically but it's a backheel that went through legs okay so that's what comes to mind straight away the

18:27James Richardson: thing about the morgan gibbs white one was that it was he was sort of pivoting at the same time it wasn't that the ball was static he just he only said in the interview after he was just improvising which he very much had to do at that point i think it went through ruben diaz's legs and Donnarumma just didn't know what was going on. It was a fantastic piece of ingenuity as much as anything.

18:43Jack Lang: Right, and I loved his celebration as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Caught up in the madness. So City had taken the lead with Semenyo notching up his seventh goal in 12 matches as a man City player. What a season he's having. 17 now for this Premier League campaign. Then the Morgan Gibbs-White equaliser. Then Rodri restored City's lead in muscular fashion. From a corner. From a corner. Yeah, just checking. And then Elliot Anderson. And it remained 2-2 to the death. Well past those eight minutes that were notionally added on, City was still pressing. And that incredible melee.

19:22James Richardson: Yeah, I was watching this live and I got a bit confused because there was so much of the melee and the chaos that it seemed like no one was really trying to snatch at the shot with too much kind of vigour. And I thought the whistle had gone because it just seemed like it was just sort of playing its way out. And I thought if a Manchester City player knew that the ball was still live, if you like, they would have shot with a bit more conviction.

19:45Jack Lang: Well, somebody did, but Murillo comes screaming across, almost like one of those table football sliders, you know.

19:50James Richardson: Yeah, I think it was... One of the pundits said after the game that actually, if you can't affect the game in terms of making a challenge, then how could he affect the game? It was just by getting onto the goal line, which he did excellently. He did that quite a lot last season as well, in terms of just kind of thinking pessimistically, how can I at least do something if I can't get to the ball? And that's pretty much the last kick of the game. But it was Savino who had that shot. And if I'm being ultra-critical again, and I had a slight disagreement on this this morning, I thought he could have really punched it.

20:21James Richardson: And just kind of, because there's so many bodies, whack it, but try to counterpoint.

20:26Duncan Alexander: My point was there is no time at all to even think about how you're hitting that ball. You're just going to take a swipe and hope it goes in. It goes through legs as well. So it's not like it's a terrible shot. But, yeah, I'm with Savini on that one. I just think he's not even aware of what's going on and he's just taken a swipe at it.

20:49Art De Roché: Maybe he had a sudden vision of the Arsenal fans in Brighton waiting. Maybe so. Maybe so.

20:55Jack Lang: So it's no longer in City's hands, Mark.

20:57James Richardson: No longer in City's hands. I mean, I wrote it in the briefing that we did after the game that aesthetically City were as good as I've seen them for a long time, especially the first half, they were just popping about, rotating excellently. It was each of the midfielders were just taking it in turns to just drop between the centre-backs and make sure that they built up. And it was just Nottingham Forest frustrating City as much as they could, but City found an answer with the Semenyo opener. And you thought that they're not really, if things stay as they are, then City are going to kind of walk to a victory here.

21:25James Richardson: And it played out, and again I wrote this in the briefing, that it played out like so many other patterns do with these sorts of games, where it's just total domination from the leading team, total underdog football from the other team, yet still they managed to score a couple of goals and it was very much making the most of their chances. I don't know why it plays out like this so often. But it often does with Arsenal. Arsenal, another example, with Wolves as well, the way that it did. I don't know if it's just taking your foot off the gas a little bit too much or... Bottling, I think that's what it's called, isn't it?

21:56James Richardson: Yeah, I really don't know. But yeah, aesthetically, City were very good, but they just bottled it at the risk of sparking another very polite debate I thought that was such a penalty on Harland you did? yeah completely because like so he took a touch that was at a different angle to the one he was running your body doesn't immediately adjust and like go that way he had to take a couple more steps and so it just collapses into it

22:20Jack Lang: his touch was probably a little bit heavy he then runs into the keeper's hands instead of chasing the ball which possibly I would characterise that slightly differently would you?

22:29James Richardson: yeah okay Would you say it's a striker being cute? Oh, yeah, definitely. To play for the contact. He wanted it. He wanted it, and he got it. Like, sales clattered into him. I don't tend to like that. Even if it was a penalty, I don't tend to like those ones where it's quite obvious that you're kicking the ball out, but you are trying to make contact as quickly as possible. I don't like it either. But it does happen. Yeah.

22:51Art De Roché: Can you imagine working in a place like this with all these furious arguments going on? Unbelievable. Toxic culture.

22:56Jack Lang: What a night for Forrest, Mark, because when they were 2-1 down, West Ham were busy winning at Fulham and they dropped into the bottom three.

23:07James Richardson: Yeah, I mean, the narrative with Nottingham Forest has been, are they too good to go down if you look at their individual players? Morgan Gibbs-White and Elliot Anderson, two goal scorers, the two main examples of that. They have still got some real quality in the side. You thought they might have had a bit of a bounce when Pereira comes in, as is often the case. They didn't. And maybe this is kind of the beginning of a bump rather than a bounce. They can use the foundations of broader that performance and the confidence to take it into the next few games. But it does feel, again, aesthetically, that they are maybe too good to go down.

23:40Jack Lang: But it's so tight at the bottom that you can't tell. Just goal difference at the moment. He will have a bit of time to work with the players, though, through this FA Cup weekend. As for City, seven points now behind Arsenal. They do have a game in hand and they do have the clash that the Etihad coming up. But I note that the Opta supercomputer gives Arsenal a 93 % chance of winning the title. Duncan, you worked at Opta. Is there a big room with people in white coats servicing with rolls of paper, a giant?

24:13Art De Roché: No, it's a very modern supercomputer. Is it actually a supercomputer? Yeah, it's the size of, I don't know, a block of cheese maybe. But it's very powerful. You titled it the supercomputer? Yeah, I christened it the supercomputer, and that word is... Well, it's in the latest Arctic Monkeys song, so I'm taking some credit for that. What differentiates it from your common or garden computer? It's sentient. It's a very powerful machine. Okay. But it simulates the remaining fixtures. Built-in printer. Has it got that? Dot matrix. Yeah, yeah. It's got a 500 megabyte memory upgrade as well. But it's really, it's honestly, it's cutting edge.

24:54Art De Roché: But yeah, no, it simulates the remaining games 10 ,000 times. 10 ,000? In 93 % of those outcomes, Arsenal win the league.

25:02Jack Lang: Wow. What does it come up with for the relegation battle, which is oh so tight? Now, as I mentioned, Spurs, who have that game Thursday night, as we record against Crystal Palace, only a point above Forest and West Ham.

25:15James Richardson: If anyone just listening or watching, he just put his finger in the USB and he's shaking slightly. Really short. I do know that didn't they go from 100 % likelihood of relegation to, I want to say, 99.8 %? On Tuesday? On Tuesday.

25:31Art De Roché: Really? They were 0.3 % after Tuesday's game. They're now 0.1 % chance of staying up. Spurs are now up to 8%. Forest on 30%. West Ham on 53%. Where's the other percentage gone? That doesn't add up to 100%. Leeds as well. Leeds can go now. Okay, yeah. What are they on? They're on 9%. Oh. And Crystal Palace are on 0.7%. Even Brighton and Sunderland have a slight transfer. So Leeds are on a bigger percentage likelihood of going down than Spurs,

26:05Jack Lang: even though Leeds are above them in the table.

26:07Art De Roché: Yes, but I have seen the supercomputer wearing a Paul Gascoigne 1990 Spurs shirt, so it might have an inbuilt bias.

26:16Jack Lang: Should we talk about West Ham then? Mark, was there anything else you wanted to add about the evening at the Etihad?

26:23James Richardson: No, not too much, really. As I say, I was impressed with City's ability to control the performance as much as anything. They were sucker punched. They have had issues with conceding on transitional moments. But if they do carry on playing like that for the rest of the season, they will win more often than not, maybe even against Arsenal. We don't know.

26:44Jack Lang: All right. Mark, thank you so much for being with us this morning. Thank you for having me.

26:51Jack Lang: Controversy's Mark Carey. All right, Fulham hosting West Ham Wednesday night and it was a 1-0 Hammers win, witnessed by you, Duncan.

27:00Art De Roché: Very enjoyable game. What a goal. What a goal. Yeah, Somerville's really kind of stepping up when it counts. I mean, him and Bowen, probably the two key forwards and they combined, I mean, Bernd Leno helped a fair bit as well. I saw a few Spurs fans pointing out his Arsenal heritage, but I think it was just bad play. How did he help? Well, he ran out to get a long ball and completely messed it up and Bowen kind of got in between him and Kevin Bassie and then passed it to Somerville. He still had a little bit of work to do, shot from the edge of the box, but yeah, right in front of the West Ham fans and the sort of scenes, similar to the Arsenal fans, I guess, at the end of the Brighton game.

27:39Art De Roché: You can see sort of belief flooding through a fan base. It's quite fun. But I think Roshane Thomas' piece this morning on the Athletic, kind of focused more on Madsah Manson and goal, who, I mean, when West Ham signed him, I was a bit like, really? Like, is he the signing you want to make? And he started the season, and I think anyone who saw the West Ham-Chelsea game very early on, he was absolutely all over the shop, under a series of corners, but he's been recalled by Nuno, who himself obviously was a goalkeeper, so knows ball, knows glove, I guess. And he was really good. He made five saves, he had his best goals prevented figure of any game this season, and he kind of exuded a calmness.

28:23Art De Roché: I mean, Fulham didn't create loads of open clear-cut chances, but he was still very kind of calm, and I think Fulham dominated the first half, and he kind of exuded that calmness, which spread through the team, and basically gave West Ham a platform to do what they did in the second half. And yeah, they seemed to just be finding a kind of structure and a kind of flow, I think. I mean, again, I don't like to speak against the supercomputer, my old friend, but I think West Ham of the three are the least likely to go down. What are you doing, Duncan? Look, the supercomputer can hunt me down, and it may well do so, but having seen West Ham, I just feel like they're one of the three that are on the trajectory of hope.

29:08James Richardson: Speaking of knowing ball or otherwise, there was a massive meltdown in ball knowledge, I think, when Tom Kearney, the decision to give him a penalty was overturned. I thought it was a terrible decision. Kearney lined up a shot and then Tati Castellanos just kind of like came in and like dangled his foot in front of Kearney's swinging leg. So technically, Kearney did kick Castellanos. Right. But only because Castellanos, you can't just like dangle your leg in front of a guy who's kicking the ball. That's you committing a foul, regardless of, you know, whose leg is moving. Kearney's halfway through taking a shot.

29:46James Richardson: Yeah.

29:46Duncan Alexander: I thought it was a penalty as well. So again, sorry to do it twice in one episode, but I'm agreeing with Jack. I mean, it's clear for me because when you're in that position as a striker, he's not a strike, he's a midfielder, but you know what I mean. You're not really in any knowledge of anyone around you. You're just taking that shot and he's had his leg taken away from him. I think that was a penalty, but I don't know.

30:13Art De Roché: I disagree. I think, yeah, I think Castellanos had stopped dead. It wasn't like he was still moving. he had made a movement to get out of the way and yeah but he's allowed to play the ball

30:25Jack Lang: and if his ball is between Kearney's foot and the ball

30:29Art De Roché: he's clearly got there first he didn't touch the ball he saw Kearney and he was like oh I need to stop myself because if I carry on I'm going to give away a penalty and he stopped dead and Kearney as he swung his foot back kind of catches him and that kind of trips him up

30:43Jack Lang: I like to think this is the kind of chat that went on at Stockley Park the moments following that But anyway, it wasn't given. West Ham did get the win. They are now level with Forrest and just one point behind Spurs. But they do have a tough run coming up. They've got Man City and once tough Aston Villa in their next two league fixtures. What's your gut say, Jack? Who's the team you most fear for? Is it still the Hammers?

31:09James Richardson: No, I'm with Duncan, actually. I think West Ham are on a...

31:12Jack Lang: So who is going to go down with Burnley, let's say, and Wolves?

31:17James Richardson: you know what i i think spurs could be in trouble i'm saying it

31:27Duncan Alexander: i i don't i didn't want to be the one to say it because everyone knows that yeah but you do like agreeing with me so but i again i do like agreeing with jack um when you look at the way these teams are playing football uh-huh the words duncan used before belief OK. It feels like Forest have more belief in themselves. It feels like West Ham have more belief in themselves. When you look at Tottenham, I don't know where that belief is.

31:55Jack Lang: Another word that Duncan likes to say is numbers. And oftentimes this season you've said, look at the numbers. When discussing Wolves prospects of becoming the worst Premier League side ever and other top talking points, what do your numbers say about Spurs?

32:11Art De Roché: Well, if you look at the XG table, the bottom three is Burnley. I think they're going to go down. In 18th, it's Wolves, again, probably going to go down. In 19th, it's Sunderland, probably not going to go down. But, yeah, they've been fortunate, maybe. But then of the three that we're talking about, it has Spurs in 17th, Forest in 16th, and West Ham in 15th. So that follows the pattern. I mean, obviously, we were recording this before Spurs played. Yeah, I was going to say. But even the game against Crystal Palace is interesting, I think, because, yes, a win...

32:42Jack Lang: A win leaves them four points clear, and this conversation might be very, very quaint by this time tomorrow.

32:47Art De Roché: It could, but I think almost... It sounds silly when it's a relegation battle, but I think the manner of the performance is probably more important than the result because I think it sets the tone for the next few weeks.

32:57Jack Lang: Oh, so it matters how you perform, but not for Arsenal. Arsenal, any result will do, but for Spurs, they've got to...

33:04Art De Roché: I think when you haven't won a game in this year, calendar year and it's March, then I think yeah.

33:11Jack Lang: Okay, I'd say any win will do. But we'll find out Thursday night if they can get three points at home to Palace. Next up today, let's move on to the battle for top five and that Villa Chelsea humdinger.

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35:45Mark Carey: you're listening to the totally football show with james richardson now with you four times a week keep up to date with us on insta and enjoy us in glorious technicolor on youtube at the totally show all the way over to garnacho and garnacho in on gold and so joe pedro Oh, it's a hat-trick.

36:06Jack Lang: Jean-Pedro. Jack Lang, you were watching this as Chelsea ended their three-game winless run in spectacular fashion. Away to Aston Villa. Villa, who'd taken the lead early doors, but then Jean-Pedro happened.

36:20James Richardson: Yeah, fantastic. He's been in such good form since Liam Rosinha took over. Looks very liberated, but also I think the important thing is that he's taken his all-round play, which has always been very good, but he has become the threat in the box as well, which is what he was missing from his game. First goal is a great example of that, just the kind of determination to run past his marker and get on the end of the low cross. He links play really well. He's scored some really beautiful goals as well as the ugly ones and yeah, really making the difference for Chelsea. I would also highlight Enzo Fernandes, who unlocked the Villa defence with the ball over the top on the first goal, set up João Pedro's second goal with a very cute little ball around the corner.

37:07James Richardson: And I mean, when Chelsea play like that, you have to sit back and just admire it. They play some really nice football. How has he been liberated? Great question. I think yesterday, I tend to think that Chelsea look a little bit better and Enzo Fernandes is further forward. So Rosinha has tended to play Caicedo with either Andre or Rhys James. And then Enzo Fernandes is more of a number 10. I think that helps because when Fernandes is deeper, Joao Pedro tends to drop in a little bit more. And I just think he, yeah, maybe liberated is the wrong word. Maybe he was too liberated before, but I think he's now been told, You need to be in that six-yard box at certain moments as well.

37:56James Richardson: I think there are real similarities between a number of the Brazilians who are playing in the Premier League, like Mateus Cunha. I think you could say a similar thing, like you just need to score a few more goals. Evan Ilsen at Bournemouth. A lot of these guys do the build-up stuff really well, but only get six, seven goals a season. I think Dwarf Pedro, if he scores 15 goals a season, he becomes a different prospect.

38:19Jack Lang: OK, three goals last night and an assist. Andrew Turma says, who does Jack think should play around Jaapedro for Brazil at the World Cup if he has nailed that number nine spot?

38:31James Richardson: Well, that's a big if at the moment. He hasn't, like, so he was kind of head of the queue maybe nine months ago. But in more recent games, Mateus Cunha has been the Premier League forward alongside, you know, Vinicius. And Esteban is also kind of the incumbent on the right-hand side. Rodrigo's injury for Real Madrid, so he's going to miss the World Cup. That changes things a bit. So right now, I would probably expect the front four to be... So Vinicius Junior has been playing centrally through the middle. I would probably expect him to play there. Maybe with... I would say Jafinha is a lock. But yeah, Rodrigo makes it interesting.

39:20James Richardson: I would probably say Vinicius, Rafinha, Matheus Cunha still. And then I would say it's between Joao Pedro and Estevan for that final place. Obviously, all four of those players can play in all four of those positions, which is kind of what Brazil want, really. But yeah, I think Joao Pedro, with the goals, he's putting himself higher up in the list than he was a few weeks ago. All right. Sounds like a quartet or magical. Let's go.

39:47Jack Lang: Could be. Terrible news for Rodrigo.

39:51James Richardson: Yeah, I mean, interesting. I think I saw that he'd been kind of playing with a partial ACL tear, is it, for years. And he's such a funny player, Rodrigo, because sometimes there'll be a few months and you think, wow, this guy, the fuss should be all about this guy. Forget Vinicius, this is the player. First touch is amazing, reads the game really well. Just a little bit less explosive. But then there are times, I guess, partially explained by this injury. He's been quite poor this season, especially. But bad news for him. But Brazil do have the options in those positions. I think they will be OK.

40:35James Richardson: OK.

40:36Jack Lang: Chelsea having options as well. Rossegna dropping Robert Sanchez to the bench after his performance against Arsenal. A decision vindicated by events.

40:47James Richardson: Yeah, Philip Jorgensen was good. I thought he came off his line very quickly a few times to stop Villa breaking through, blameless on the goal, really. And yeah, I mean, I don't think he's necessarily the long-term number one there, but I think there's every chance he's better than Robert Sanchez, which is what they need.

41:12Jack Lang: Half the story was how good Chelsea were, and you have to sit back and admire you, say, Jack. But if you're a Villa fan, what did you make of their performance, their latest setback?

41:20James Richardson: I mean, funnily enough, I thought they played quite well in the first half. They had a goal ruled out for a very narrow offside that would have changed the rest of the match, I think. They had a very high line, I think, and Chelsea did exploit that. Chelsea could also have scored before, I think, between João Pedro's first and second goals. Cole Palmer ran through and slightly dithered. And, yeah, I said on the pod a few weeks ago that I wasn't too sure about the kind of some of the recruitment. Leon Bailey playing. I know they've got loads of injuries. Right.

41:56Jack Lang: I mean, the whole midfield's out, essentially.

41:58James Richardson: Telemans, Bubika Kamara. And McGinn, of course. John McGinn still. Yeah. And I think they do look light, unfortunately. And, yeah, I don't think it was a 4-1 necessarily, but they didn't play great. and yeah it's it's a tricky moment in what has been a good season overall for now villa are still

42:19Jack Lang: part of the top five because man united one of their rivals with whom they are now level on points behind on goal difference also lost on wednesday night away to newcastle this was also quite a match not least for that extraordinary passage at the end of the first half in which

42:35James Richardson: everything happened jack yeah red card for jacob ramsey second yellow for um simulation then Newcastle won a legitimate penalty won and converted by Anthony Gordon and then Casemiro scored in the 54th minute something like that this was all in time first half stop it yeah completely manic period of play at the end of what was actually a really good first half mainly because Newcastle were really good they were still without Bruno Guimaraes but this was the best that I've seen them play without him. Sandro Tonali was brilliant. Joe Ellington was brilliant. And Man United just weren't there. They were just not happening for them anywhere over the pitch.

43:25James Richardson: So typified by Brian and Bermot, I think, out on the right. He's been moved over there. So Cesco can start. Had a really poor game behind him. Diogo Dallo was rested and actually quite a big miss, I think. I don't think Nassim Masraoui gives United the same forward impetus. And yeah, they were just not clicking anywhere. Newcastle put together some really nice attacking moves on the counter, particularly, which kind of all fizzled out until the game blew into life. And after Casemiro equalised just before halftime, you did have the feeling, well, United would just go on and win this against 10 men.

44:05James Richardson: and yet Newcastle dug in and Will Asula came up big later on.

44:11Duncan Alexander: Wow. What would you say about that goal, Art? It was amazing. I mean, when I was at the under-21s Euros in the summer, I had to write a piece like who are the five guys to basically watch. He was one. Nick Voltamada was another and Elliot Anderson, actually. So that's nice to kind of see those guys all have their moments this season. But for that to come off his left foot like that, I think it's probably a moment he's needed because obviously when Alexander Izak was at Newcastle, he was very clearly the understudy. And now this year he's had Valtemada and Visser come in to take those spots. So for him, I think a young player who's got quality, but has only really shown it in glimpses for Newcastle, always been kind of in and out of the team.

45:01Duncan Alexander: it's a moment that could really help him and Newcastle because we've seen that their Premier League form this season hasn't been great so going into this kind of back end of the year still in the Champions League as well could really be a massive boost for them

45:18Jack Lang: Indeed, Barcelona next week Premier League after the game put out a little well they put a post out which featured a photo of an 11-year-old William Orsola at Old Trafford receiving from Brian Robson, the Man United Soccer School World Skills Final, which he had the trophy for winning it. And here we are, 12... They didn't know. Little did they know. So it was the 90th minute, anyway, on Wednesday night. Kieran Trippier hoofs the ball and finds... It was described as a lovely pass on commentary. It very nearly went out of play.

45:52Art De Roché: Yeah, Oshula does well to keep it, and he almost stumbles as he gets to it. It looks like he's going to fall over. Such has been his pace to get to the ball and rescue it. Slightly overstrode, but a little bit. But then sorts himself out. Faints twice to throw the Man United... Very big step-overs. The radius was off the chart.

46:11Jack Lang: But enough to bamboozle the United players.

46:13James Richardson: To be fair, I don't think Tyrell Molassia takes much bamboozling.

46:17Art De Roché: He wasn't even the same postcode. And then bends it in to the far corner past Lamans. And it was one of those moments where, again, you know people are enjoying the Premier League the crowd goes mad he runs and jumps into the crowd the other Newcastle players join him it's what we want absolutely

46:39Jack Lang: Newcastle up to 12th place now in the Premier League table Man United missing the chance to take a real lead in that race for top 5 spots

46:48Art De Roché: United United United's next game is against Aston Villa which is promising to be you know always a good game from Federico and Makeda through to Van Persie's goal that clinched the title the last time United won the league. But this one, obviously, didn't Villa lose out on the Champions League on the last day last season in that very fixture. Is it home or away? It's at Old Trafford. So, yeah, I think, I mean, people will tune in because it's a big match. But I think it's worth, yeah, I think United will be favourites for that.

47:21Jack Lang: Very good. Of course, it's FA Cup coming up this weekend And before any more Premier League action, we'll be looking at what the fifth round holds very, very shortly and getting a little bit more Brazilian news from Jack.

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49:44Mark Carey: This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network.

49:50Jack Lang: Jack Lang. James. So on Wednesday, we were marvelling at this news about Felipe Luis, who everyone enjoyed so much at the Club World Cup. He turned up with his Flamengo. Biff Chelsea did the eventual winners 3-1. He'd already won the league and the Copa Libertadores with Flamengo. These numbers. He'd averaged a trophy every 14 games, seven titles in 100 matches in charge. He'd won 8-0 against a Carioca rival, and then the next day was fired by Flamengo. Can you tell us why?

50:30James Richardson: There's a two-word answer and a one-word answer. Is it one word yes? The two-word answer is Brazilian football. The one-word answer is Flamengo. Okay. And I'll expand on those now. So, yeah, a complete nonsense. And it's sent short ways through Brazilian football, which, you know, coaches get sacked every three or four. It's like Italy, but more. But yeah, after an 8-0, after everything he's done. Fans are outraged. And I think there seems to have been a bit of a fallout behind the scenes between him and the club's directors. Very popular figure with the players, with the fans. I think widely regarded in Brazilian football as the next big Brazilian manager, a guy who can actually go abroad and succeed in a way that Brazilian managers haven't since.

51:22James Richardson: Luis Felipe Scolari was probably the most recent guy who went abroad and did quite well. I mean, not even that well in a sustained way, but Felipe Luis is very worldly, urbane, very modern manager. There is a piece from the Club World Cup, if you want to read a bit more about his management style. I'm sure he will be at a pretty big club within the next few months. He's a very, very good manager.

51:48Jack Lang: Was it his attempts to get to a very big club that led to his disagreements with Flamengo?

51:53James Richardson: Well, there have been stories about maybe talks taking place with Chelsea. I think the bigger issue seems to have been, so he renewed his contract at Flamengo at the end of last year after a very protracted process, which I think kind of created some friction between him and the guys above him. But really, people are seeing this as a reversion to type from Flamengo. So historically, it's the most chaotic club in the most chaotic league. It's the biggest club in Brazil. And until about six, seven years ago, they lived in a state of permanent chaos. Just like think Man United, but like throw fireworks in there as well.

52:37James Richardson: but they've had this period of complete serenity based on some good financial decisions and Philippe Luiz smoothed over a few things as well and now this is just like I've got a couple of friends who are Flamengo fans and the memes are very good so it's just Flamengo returning to their true selves in a very painful but also quite funny way

52:59Jack Lang: Leonardo Jardim coming in

53:01James Richardson: yeah so he's been at Cruzeiro for a very funny career because he was the guy who made Monaco amazing with Mbappe, Bernardo Silva that fantastic team and then kind of disappeared for a long time went to the Middle East and it was slightly surprising when he popped back up in Brazil, did well at Cruzeiro I've been wanting him to get a big job preferably in Europe for a while because there's a good story about

53:27Jack Lang: Was he on judging leave?

53:29James Richardson: Very nice The interesting thing about him is that he used to be really into handball. Oh, yeah. And I think has spoken in the past about how handball informs some of his tactical approach. Okay.

53:42Art De Roché: It's not an Argentinian thing, mate. Nice.

53:45James Richardson: Nice, yeah. But, yeah, he's the new man appointed yesterday.

53:49Jack Lang: Okay. As it stands, he is the Flamingo manager. Also, speaking of Brazilian football, Jesse Lingard has joined Corinthians.

53:59James Richardson: Yeah. Right. Not as we record. It hasn't been finalized. He's been training with them. But the paperwork hasn't gone through, so they haven't announced him. But I think it's imminent. Yeah, he's been in South Korea for a while. Yeah, that's right. And Quarinchins have, I mean, it's quite a Quarinchins move. Memphis Depay has been there for the last couple of years. and there are shades of Colin Kazim Richards as well who popped up at Corinthians after some wilderness years. And yeah, interesting one. Not often you see an English player in Brazil.

54:36Jack Lang: So I hope it goes well for him. Yeah, 33-year-old now, Jay Lings. Best of luck to him. FA Cup fifth round, everybody. Just to run through the games. Friday, Liverpool are back at Molyneux where they lost on Tuesday, taking on Rob Edwood's Wolves. Saturday lunchtime, Mansfield of League One take on Arsenal. Tea time, it's Wrexham Chelsea. Then at eight, for the fifth time this season, Newcastle face Manchester City. Sunday, Fulham Saints at 12. Saints on a nine-game unbeaten run. Later on, you've got Port Vale, who are the most recently qualified team for the fifth round, and also the lowest-ranked side still in the competition, and they're hosting Sunderland at 4.30.

55:18Jack Lang: then. It is Leeds-Norwich. Woo! And we'll be doing our Totally Football Show straight after that, rounding up all the weekend's activity. And there's one more match, and that's West Ham-Brentford on the Monday. Not sure which game you're most interested in. I know you're going to Field Mill for Mansfield Arsenal. Perhaps you'll tell us why in a second or two. First of all, though, let's get the Athletics' Wrexham correspondent, Richard Sutcliffe, on to tell us about what awaits there at the race course ground as they host Chelsea Saturday tea time.

55:55Jack Lang: Rix and Marin, the FA Cup fifth round for the first time in almost 30 years. What's the mood like in the town? Very excited. Forest was the first time they've had a Premier League team in the Reynolds-Mac era. But to actually get Chelsea, obviously it's the first glamour tie. So particularly at home, it's all everyone's spoken about since the draw was made, really. Brilliant. What do you think their prospects are of making it through to the quarterfinals? Well, it's going to be tough. Being at home will help. And Phil Parkinson has got history with Chelsea, who was the Bradford City manager, who went to Chelsea in 2015 when they were top of the league under Mourinho and went 2-0 down, but then ended up winning 4-2 in the fourth round.

56:41Jack Lang: I was there that day for the Yorkshire Post and it was an incredible day and they fully deserved it. and it was through a tactical tweak. He played James Hansen. It was his battering ram centre-forward. He played him out on the left wing because he was up against a young lad called Andreas Christensen. He was now at Barcelona, but he was a bit of a waif of a teenager back then. So he put James Hansen out there to bully him and it worked brilliantly. And City won 4-2. Richard, what tactical tweaks do you think he might come up with this time to counter Chelsea? Which Wrexham players should the uninitiated look out for?

57:15Jack Lang: I can't see him doing too much different they've got a problem in central midfield they're lacking a couple of players Ben Sheaf out for the season Matty James who's been in a championship for a long time he's got a broken tone so he's out so there's real problems in there the big thing is going forward it's either Kiefer Moore up front on his own or Sam Smith up front on his own and them playing off them Josh Windass, Nathan Broadhead Oli Rathbone's been the big success story of the season, really. He didn't play until November because of injury. And they played with the year last year, but he's come in and he's scoring.

57:55Jack Lang: I think he's got six or seven goals now, and he's less than one every 90 minutes, which, you know, if we're attacking midfielder, he's pretty sensational. It was him who got the winner last weekend at Charlton. In the FA Cup, it's been Josh Windhouse, who you mentioned there, who's really been leading the way. Five goals in his last five FA Cup starts. Yeah, he's great for the big occasion. He's Josh. He's got the winner against Ipswich, just a little deft header. But like I said, all the way through with Sheffield Wednesday, I'm pretty sure he scored against Newcastle when they knocked them out at Hillsborough two or three years ago.

58:32Jack Lang: He's a big game player and he's a very clever player as well. And it's going to be interesting to see how he does against, obviously, the World Club champions. They've got a promotion push on Havrexham, But is this their biggest game of the season so far, Richard? I'd say so, yes. I've been of the mind that going out of the FA Cup wouldn't be that much of a problem. I've said that for the last two rounds. But obviously, they're in now against Chelsea, so everyone's chuffed. And you speak to people in Wrexham, and they absolutely love the FA Cup because it's part of their DNA, really. You know, obviously, the Arsenal game, everyone remembers.

59:06Jack Lang: But they've beaten Forest when they were European champions. They've knocked out West Ham. and knocked out Middlesbrough and Gaza and Janinho were there. It's what Wrexham were known for before Reynolds and Mack came along, really. Everyone would focus on Wrexham for a week and then the spotlight would move on, but they'd still remember that Mickey Thomas free kick against Arsenal and things like that. The FA Cup is massively important to Wrexham. I've just had the worry of fixture congestion, really, because if they did get through this one, which is a big if, I know, So, you know, it's over the Easter weekend when Wrexham have got two games.

59:41Jack Lang: So all of a sudden you've got to move two matches there when, you know, you really are at the business end of the season by then. And, you know, they're in a really good position, League-wise. Sixth, four points clear. So even though all their rivals are playing at the weekend, they'll still be sixth. What happens, whatever happens against Chelsea? But, you know, I'm always a little bit apprehensive if, you know, if you get into a Saturday-Tuesday, Saturday-Tuesday for the final month, it can rebound on you a little bit. All right, Richard. Well, let's see what happens then on Saturday. Many, many thanks for joining us today.

1:00:10Jack Lang: No, absolute pleasure.

1:00:15Jack Lang: Richard Sutcliffe will be at the Racecourse Ground on Saturday. I'm sure a lot of people are going to be making that their FA Cup game of choice. Would you like to make a case for Mansfield Town against Arsenal?

1:00:30Duncan Alexander: The pitch apparently isn't going to be great. Oh, good. So rather than Arsenal being the ones that kind of annoy people, if people want to see them potentially be annoyed, they can tune in. Yeah, apparently it's going to be a bit of a bog.

1:00:47Art De Roché: I watched Wickham draw 0-0 at the end of January. It wasn't a classic. Yeah, I think it could be. I mean, a lot of people are pointing out Arsenal's draw in this, in the Champions League is, you know, reeks of quadruple. But this is, you know, this is what a classic potential FA Cup bananas game.

1:01:08Duncan Alexander: Really? Yeah. Also, sorry, Max Dowman is back. Yes. An injury. Was on the bench last night, but obviously didn't come on because of how the game was going. Did actually see him, after the game, walk through the mix zone. And he was completely fine. Him and Marley Salmon, another 16-year-old, who has had a couple of appearances in the FA Cup already this season. So if Mikel Arteta sees this game as one to give them a bit more experience against men, then I think it might be fun to watch those guys play as well.

1:01:46Jack Lang: Against men and stags. Nigel Clough's side have won none of their last nine games in the league, but have had as many FA Cup victories in 2026 as they have in their league campaign. These sides have only ever met once before, Art. It was in the fourth round at Highbury in 1929. Harry Peel and David Jack scored the goals for the Gunners in a 2-0 win.

1:02:12Art De Roché: And then they closed the game down. Very disappointing.

1:02:14Jack Lang: Yeah. Very possibly. What was number one, Jack? Why? I think it might have been eight minutes from the heating. I actually looked up what was a big hit. Ain't Misbehaving by Fats Waller

1:02:24Art De Roché: Charks in 1929

1:02:26Jack Lang: Yeah I was staggered by that as well Ain't Misbehaving and Tiptoe Through the Tulips by Nick Lucas Banger to be honest Big tune Very much so Tiptoe Through the Quagmire The Bog Perhaps for Arsenal Newcastle Man City is maybe the other big fixture Jack is there another one you're looking out for?

1:02:50James Richardson: No I like the look of that one I like that it's a random Saturday 8pm kick-off thrown into the mix every now and again. I mean, they seem to be playing each other every other week, these two. So there's not much novelty factor. City knocked Newcastle out of the League Cup. So, yeah, I think this is the fifth time they play this season. Could yet play each other in the Champions League. You never know. In the final. In the final. Why not? So, yeah, it's a big match. Moderately excited about it. But the other one, I mean, come on. Yeah. The other one I would lean towards would be Fulham v Southampton.

1:03:28James Richardson: And I think actually going back to your question from earlier, which side do I really like watching, I'd probably say Fulham actually. Is that right?

1:03:34Jack Lang: Especially if Harry Wilson's not injured because he was against West Ham. What's the likely of a good? No idea.

1:03:42James Richardson: But I do like Harry Wilson. I like a lot of their players.

1:03:47James Richardson: Even when they lose, it's an interesting match. and they play nice open football. They're in the NFC, aren't they?

1:03:54Art De Roché: They just turn up with their boots and their wash bag and they'll have a game of football. You can almost make a similar case in terms of an opportunity for Sunderland, who play Port Vale, and Leeds, who host Norwich, because they can all get through to the quarterfinal and from then on it's alive. We saw last year that one of the stories of the season was Palace winning the FA Cup. I think it meant more to them than it would have done to Manchester City's fans. Fulham have never won a trophy have they? I mean if you look at who are the biggest team never to win a trophy then it used to be Crystal Palace but now it might very well be Fulham

1:04:30Jack Lang: Might well be the Cautious There we go Alright Fulham Saints is midday on Sunday so make a little space for that in your weekend schedule listener Make a little space too if you will for us Sunday evening probably around about 7.15 stroke 7.30 when we'll be getting together again in this studio for our thoughts on the fifth round ahead of West Ham Brentford, Duncan.

1:04:54Art De Roché: Some breaking EFL news. Oh, yeah. They've agreed to expand the playoffs next season to eighth or to sixth team. So it will go down to eighth place. OK. So potentially good news for Spurs. But, yeah, so it will be mirror the sort of playoff system they use in the National League and places like that. But, yeah, some people don't like it. Some people think that it's going to weaken the playoffs or dilute them, but I mean, that's sort of what the playoffs are, right? So more the merrier for me. There you go.

1:05:24Jack Lang: There you go. Duncan, thank you so much for today. Many thanks to you, to Art, to Jack, to Jake and producer Charlie in the booth and yourself, listener. Catch up with you soon for now from all of us here. It's goodbye.

1:05:41Mark Carey: You've been listening to The Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. For other great podcasts just like this one, including The Athletic FC and our dedicated club podcasts, search for The Athletic in all the usual places. We're also at The Totally Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

1:06:07Mark Carey: The Athletic FC.

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