Brazil bossing the Club World Cup, plus PSG v Messi in the last 16

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2:41The Athletic FC Podcast Network career in is career and we enjoy the full operatic sweep of Salerno Tana Sab. All that plus a cracking on this day in this Totally Football Show.

3:00Tuesday 24th of June, listener, thank you so much for joining us. We've got Colin Miller here. Hello, Colin. Hey, James. Also, Charlie Ackleshire. All right, Charlie. Hello. And good day to you, Duncan Alexander. Good day. Nice to see you all. Colin, Duncan, Charlie, what have you been up to through these long football-less weeks of summer? Well, I was in Paris for the French Open for a few weeks. That was great. You've got Wimbledon next week, haven't you? Wimbledon next week, Queen's last week and the week before. So it's been kind of the busiest time of year for us. Crazy, crazy. Duncan, finding a way to fill the days?

3:35Yeah, just about. I mean, you say football-less, but it seems to be wall-to-wall football. Wall to wall. More football than ever. Which I'm not against. Let me put it out there. Every competition that's currently in progress is growing on me. Is it? Exponentially. Okay, which one is growing on you the most? I ask this because I've been doing a bit of Club World Cup and we're at the same studio where the unders are, the under-21s on Channel 4, and I've not been watching it. So which competition's been better? Because there's a little bit of an unspoken rivalry seething through the corridor. Is there?

4:10A little bit, yeah. You know, how was your game? Oh, no, it was great. Your game was too hot. Well, you've only got kids playing, etc. I can imagine. I haven't watched that much of the under-21s, but I did see a bit of Portugal-Netherlands at the weekend. So you haven't been watching the unders, but you have been watching the Club World Cup? Well, a bit of both. But Mark Van Bommel's son was sent off for a bad tackle, which was a joyous thing to see because it's good to see some stuff really is in the DNA of players. So what was that, in the Portugal game? as well. And then Netherlands beat them with 10 men.

4:43Did they now? Did they now? So, what if you like hearing about teams making stirring performances with reduced numbers and sons of former Netherlands internationals also representing their nation, I advise you to stay tuned, listener, if you needed any further encouragement because we've got both those items returning later on. Colin, what about you? What have you been up to? Yeah, picking and choosing games. I think it's fair to say. And the Club World Cup? I mean, there's just so many matches on, aren't there? There's four a day. And obviously the group stage is concluding now too. So we've got a bit more of an idea of how the knockouts are shaping up and a bit more idea of who's going to be playing who in the next rounds as well.

5:23So, yeah, I mean, I think these competitions may be from a kind of a neutral observer's point of view or a bit of a slow burner. But also when it does get to these stages and you get a bit more involved in the narratives of what's going on, that there is a bit more involvement and attachment to it. And obviously for something like the Club World Cup, which doesn't have any history or tradition in this format, I think it is very difficult to pick up certainly casual football fans' attention over a sustained period. Yeah, I think when, for example, Botafogo beating PSG, that was a moment when a lot of people went, ooh, especially when afterwards the Botafogo manager came up with that great quote, the cemetery of football is full of favourites.

6:04I think as well, the one good, and look, I have a lot of big questions over everything that's going on in the background in terms of how the tournament got here and everything else. But it is, from my point of view, and I think all of our point of views, we're very European-centric in how we consume football. I mean, that's sort of natural. But it is great to see the other clubs being able to be on this stage. And especially from a sort of fan point of view as well and the atmospheres, those clubs, especially Brazilian and Argentine clubs, have brought to the tournament. I think it really adds a lot.

6:35And Arawa. Don't forget Arawa Red Diamond. Oh, yes. The only question there, I guess, is how much it then distorts the competition. The local ecosystems. Yeah. Yeah, well, you with your questions. All right, then. Well, let's make Club World Cup very much item one ahead of those unders. And also, very shortly, hear from Jack Lang about the Brazilian side. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network.

7:05Vamos, Botafogo!

7:34beaten by Botafogo last week in that major shock, saw off Seattle Sounders at the same time. They claim top spot in the group, which means that in the last 16, Charlie, wheel out the narrative for this, they're going to be facing Inter-Miami. Boom. Inter-Miami. First time Messi's ever faced a former club. Is that right? Which is quite fun. Did PSG never play Barcelona? No, surprisingly, no. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Inter Miami faced Palmeiras. If they wanted to avoid facing PSG, which you imagine they did, they needed to beat the Brazilians. They probably took a two-goal lead. Did you see Luis Suarez? Rolling back the years.

8:14Rolling back the years and scoring. Suarez. Luis Suarez. It's past one or two. Luis Suarez still for Inter Miami!

8:26A very Suarez-y goal as well. Would you say? Oh, yeah. Did he bite someone? He didn't bite someone, but he did the kind of equivalent, I mean, his sort of dribbling equivalent, which is kind of quite scurrying and just like, get out of my way and it's going to bobble a bit. Hit it on the half volley. Yeah, exactly. And kind of celebrate before it even went in. Yeah, nice. So, yeah, it's very him. All right, then Palmeiras got two goals in the last 10 minutes and they take top spot. So they will be taking on Botafogo in an all-Brazilian affair. Saucy. That is saucy. While Inter Miami get PSG. By the way, happy birthday, Leo Messi.

9:02He plays for Inter Miami. Oh, really? He's 38 years of age. Oh, he's still playing, is he? Still playing. He'll be very confused seeing the PSG forwards running around, wouldn't he? What was this? What have they brought in here? I watched PSG, actually, last night. Did you? Well, I thought I did. What I've tended to do with these in more recent times is just pick one rather than kind of dance around because then I feel I get unsatisfied. I was watching the Atletico Botafogo. It was very much to be avoided at all. OK, I'm glad you made the right choice. I mean, it was by no means a thriller, but they are just a great thing to watch.

9:36So the Botafogo-Atletico game, as I say, was pretty rough stuff. And it does bring us on to one of the big talking points of the Club World Cup, which is the weather. This one was played at midday in Pasadena at the Rose Bowl. And the two teams got absolutely shagged out. In fact, there were only three goals scored in the two early games on Monday, both of which were played at midday. whereas the late goals you had 4-4 in the clash between Ali and Porto both of whom went out and then the four goals in the Inter-Miami Palmeiras clash yeah I do think it's disparate the fact that in this country anyway and in Europe the games we're watching really are just the day ones because the time difference I think that has an effect as well on our perceptions of it because the night games are you know they look like better occasions the football's often been better and I get I mean there are going to be far more of these day matches in the knockouts aren't there which is kind of good for European viewing habits but maybe not so good for the players well no Boca Auckland for example which certainly won't be in the playoffs given that it features Auckland is going to be on at two o 'clock local time in Nashville and the forecast temperature is this is America 103 degrees which I think is kind of 40-ish 40-ish yeah and this is something that Enzo Mareska was talking about yesterday in his pre-match press conference.

10:57He said, look, we just can't train. It's just far too hot. And they're in, I think they're in Philadelphia and there's images of their training session. It's able to see huge industrial fans at the side of the pitch blowing on cold air. And there's been public health warnings issued about don't go outside, don't be doing strenuous exercise outside in the daytime. Yet we've got these games being staged and got these, you know, players need to prepare themselves in all these various ways. So this is probably the one big issue. If this tournament is being used as sort of like a, almost like a trial run for next year's World Cup, and obviously some of the cities are different, but, you know, these extreme weather temperatures and the extreme weather storms as well, we obviously need to land games by up to an hour, hour and a half even.

11:45So these are issues that need to be thought about, Certainly in times of the scheduling around matches. Did you see Borussia Dortmund's clever innovation? The first half of their game against Mammalodi Sundown. Sundown very much something that everyone was looking forward to. What a great game that was, by the way, if you didn't catch it. 4-3 it finished to the Germans. But their bench looked really empty. And that's because all their subs spent the first half sat in the dressing room, the air-conditioned dressing room, watching it on TV. Playing someone's game gear. Disrespectful to the tournament for me.

12:17I mean, I was working on Saturday and watched the Inter-Irawa game. And that was in Seattle. It was 12 degrees and drizzling. And the players were loving it, just running around. Inter just were able to, they weren't great, but they were able to sort of attack for the whole game. And yeah, it does make a difference. But I mean, we should point out that even in 1994, there were obviously big issues with games then. Famously, Jack Charlton, John Aldridge, Steve Staunton wearing a cap in the line-up for a game. So, yeah, I mean... But that was a World Cup that afterwards was always seen as being of a lower standard because of the weather conditions.

12:53Because they were playing at midday in Pasadena, that kind of nonsense. Obviously, these days, we wouldn't do anything. Well, also, there was issues with the pitches then, and I think there's issues... I was going to say, Jude Belliam's been talking about that, hasn't he? And I have to say, that is a bit that makes you wince a little bit when you've got players who are already so clearly overworked and at injury risk, and then they're playing on these pitches and they're talking about it not being great on the joints. And I remember the start of the season before last, there were a couple of Premier League ACLs for players who'd played in those American Super Series club thingies.

13:27And it's hard to draw a straight line from one to the other, but it may not have helped. Well, we had that Jack Lang hard at work in the blazing California sun at the Botafogo Atletico Madrid game. Straight afterwards, we caught up with him to ask him why exactly it was that Brazilian side two came into Monday, having lost no games whatsoever, and with all four of them topping their groups, how they'd managed to become one of the biggest football stories of this Club World Cup so far. Here's what he said.

13:58Brazilian clubs, in common with the rest of the South American teams, the rest of the world, frankly, are really up for this, as they are for most, you know, all of the previous editions of the small-scale Club World Cup, the Intercontinental Cup before that. It is a chance for them to bloody the nose of the kind of footballing hegemony, as it were, and they really relish that, always have. But it's also, I think, a testament to an improvement in Brazilian teams over the last five, maybe 10 years. The squads are better than they used to be. they've got more players kind of a prime age and pay better wages.

14:40So, you know, look at someone like Gerson who plays for Flamengo. He was in Europe, did really well in Italy and at Marseille. Flamengo were able to buy him back on both occasions. He's kind of in his prime age. A few other players like that at all their clubs were better managed behind the scenes. People were kind of professionalising these clubs and, frankly, more investment. So they tend to spend a lot more. So Brazilian football is actually well run now? Well, it's all relative, James. There's still a lot wrong with it, a lot that can be improved upon. But compared to where they were 10 years ago, maybe, I think there has been a marked improvement.

15:23If you look at the last six Lebedadores winners have all been Brazilian, four of those were all Brazilian finals. So they pulled ahead in South America. whether that's good for the overall health of the Southbroker game is another debate but they definitely left that behind really and now they're aspiring as they always have to be kind of one of the big world leagues well at this point Botafogo is through already to the last 16 the other three well placed which one do you think could go all the way and why I'll ask that in a slightly different way. The one that won't is Fluminense. They've got a mark of the less talented squad than the other three in the competition.

16:08I think they're kind of, without wanting to diminish them, they are in the happy-to-be-here camp. They've done really well so far, but I can't see them going deep. Botafogo have this kind of never-say-die grit and some talented players up front. Iguazes is very good, but I don't see them really as potential winners. The other two, Almeidas and Flamengo, I think, are the teams that have the best chance. Almeidas haven't done that well so far, but they've got a really smart manager. Abel Verheer, that Portuguese guy. A really kind of gritty, problem solving manager. I think he will be good at finding solutions in knockout ties.

16:51I can see them causing a lot of teams' problems. And Flamengo just played the best football. Really, really good against Chelsea. A lot of talented attackers. they may find it a little bit harder when they have to do more defending in a match but I think they certainly have the talent and at their best they're probably one of the most attractive teams in this competition so I think both Palmeiras and Flamengo would be looking at a quarter of semis at this time Coming into this tournament it wasn't since 2012 that a Brazilian side had beaten a European team if they were, if one of the Brazilian teams were to win this Club World Cup what would happen back in Brazil?

17:29Well, honestly, the level of euphoria that you see after just one of these group stage victories is quite remarkable. So I honestly can't quite grasp the size of the celebrations. I think the interesting thing is Brazilian football and South American football in general are so partisan. The fans of these teams are just at each other's throats 24-7 in a domestic context and yet transferred to this Club World Cup kind of a global setting which it's to some degree the Maracos, Brazil versus the world South America versus the world taken over and so what will be interesting to me is if Flamengo win it fans of other teams are going to be somewhat excited they won't be you know they're all fireworks or whatever but that is a really strange dynamic there's a pride in what not just a single club is achieving but us as a nation of what it means for us, what it means for Brazil, what it means for South America.

18:29So honestly, it won't compare to a national team World Cup win, but it may not be far off. People are really buzzing about this. Well, it's a while since I had one of those national ones as well. All right, Jack, there's a long way to go and you've got a lot of football to watch. So we'll let you go. Many, many thanks for stopping by today. My pleasure, James. Speak soon.

18:53here's a question from Ben Hayes with the three promoted sides these days struggling to stay in the Premier League which three teams from the Club World Cup would you import for a season that's a great question I mean you've got to go Brazilian is hard to well you've got three do you want to have a Brazilian I'd go Sulzberg

19:15Flamengo Flamengo of the Brazilians yeah Yeah. Hmm. It'd be quite interesting. I'd take some money from Derby County and get Auckland City. Yeah, I was going to say, Auckland, there'd be like a, yeah, sort of grim fascination with seeing just how bad that could get. Al Ali could be, maybe not for the results on the pitch, if they've obviously gone out in their group, but obviously such a huge African club with a mass fan base like that. And really with a very distinctive history and player resources and everything else. And I think, I mean, obviously FIFA's kind of packed in this tournament is to sort of promote clubs like this or so they say but that is genuinely clubs who we've probably never seen before, I know I mentioned it earlier but I think whenever you watch a men's World Cup with the national teams, there's not really any surprises either because all the players play for clubs who we all watch or can watch anyway, whereas in sort of maybe 20 or 30 years ago that wasn't the case, there was always players that you've never really seen before wow, who is this guy or whatever else but I think at this tournament there is certainly a tendency for that.

20:19Who's been your revelation of the tournament then? In terms of a team? Yeah, no, a player who you went, oh, we're not... Or a team, I suppose. Well, actually, funnily enough, Boca Juniors striker, Miguel Marentillo. Oh, he's been so good. Yeah, he's been amusing. And this is a guy who's 29 years old, has just got one cap for Uruguay. He's only playing because Edison Cavani's out injured. Scored a great goal against Benfica and then another superb one against Bayern Munich. And this is for a club, obviously Boca Juniors have this sort of long history of iconic front players, obviously, you know, obviously Max and Maradona, and even Tevez, Benedito, Canizio, Baristuda.

20:56And again, they sort of thought, oh, Cavani might be this ageing star. He's going to be the guy that does that. He's the guy that's on all the promotional stuff for this tournament. Yeah, he's out injured again, and Marin Tiel's been amazing. And he looked, he actually, I mean, if you didn't know he was 29, you kind of think this is a guy for the future. He looks like he's so much energy and so much movement, and he just looks in great form. So, yeah, I mean, I would never probably have watched him play at a major tournament before. So it's obviously fascinating. Yeah, I mean, the idea of Boca Juniors, that would be one that a lot of people would choose, wouldn't it, just because of the history and everything, just parachute them into the Premier League for a season.

21:33Very nice. Get it done. Lovely stuff. A little bit more Club World Cup chat coming up as we get on to Man City and their big game Thursday night and loads of other stuff too.

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24:30This is The Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Olly Kay and the very best football writers around. What's Chiellini claiming here? Here he is again. Into the box. There's the first challenge. Oh dear. Oh. It looks to me, dare I say it, that he's had a little bite at Chiellini. Surely not again. Surely not again. 24th of June. as we record this, listener. As I mentioned, it's Leo Messi's birthday. It's also a special anniversary for his teammate, Luis Suarez, because it was on the 24th of June 2014, 11 years ago, as we record this, that Luis bit a chunk out of Giorgio Chiellini's shoulder during Italy-Uruguay at the Brazil World Cup.

25:25Italy's last match at the World Cup. Yeah, now that was the sting in the tail. So it's also the anniversary of the last time Italy were in a World Cup. That is just, yeah. Amazing. That's mind-blowing. Yes, I mean, I remember that happening and there was all the talk of, you know, what will this mean for... Because he hadn't actually made the move at that point, had he? He got banned for four months and in the space of that four months, he moved to Barcelona. Yeah, and I remember there being some, you know, how's that going to affect it? Will that, you know, could that even help Liverpool? Maybe Barcelona won't want to sign a player.

25:56He was just a bitter player, but they did. And fair play to them because he did. He did. Very well. To be fair to him as well, oh, he's not a bit of a player as far as I know since. That was the third on his kind of Palmares up to that point. But I think since then he's gone, you know, vegetarian in that sense. I mean, it is incredibly funny to have bitten people three times in your career, much more than twice or ten, I'd say. Or 50 % more than twice, so that's... Yeah, true. Yeah, I mean, I wonder what you would have got longer odds on at that point. Italy not playing a World Cup match in the subsequent 11 years or Suarez not biting someone.

26:31player. Both would have seemed far-fetched, wouldn't they? Maybe he needs to bite one more player for Italy to get back to the World Cup. As you say, get it done. We'll be talking about Italy and international mishaps a little bit later on when we touch on the unders. But back to the Club World Cup, where Tuesday as we record, you've got Benfica against Bayern and Boca Juniors. They're in the blazing heat against Auckland, as we mentioned. And they need a seven-goal swing. Basically, they have to hope that Bayern take their game seriously against Benfica, because if Benfica get a point from that, Boca are out.

27:09And if Benfica get beat, then Boca still need to get a seven-goal swing on them. But they are playing Auckland City, so that game should be quite interesting. The early hours of Wednesday morning, meanwhile, Chelsea try and secure their place in the last 16. They'll be taking on Esperance of Tunis after their defeat to Flamengo. Chelsea not only trying to get a place in the last 16, but also avoid Bayern Munich once they get there. Man City play Juventus on Thursday equally. They'd rather not be playing Real Madrid, I think. Juve currently ahead on goal difference. Chelsea, by the way, in their game against Esperanza, no Nicolas Jackson because, well, we've all seen...

27:47Yeah, I mean, that Auckland situation is a bit San Marino, England, 93. Just kind of need to rack up the goals very quickly and don't give away a goal in the first 10 seconds probably would be the advice to the lads. All right. Man City did rack up the goals against Al Ain. City, who were owned by the vice president of the United Arab Emirates, taking on here the team owned by his brother, the president of the United Arab Emirates, and fielding for the occasion in their very snazzy sash kit, a much-changed line-up with two former Wolves players on the flanks, Nunes and Ait Nouri. this performance is this Man City better than the one we saw in the first game do you think?

28:31Should this be their A team? I mean quality of opposition as well but I do think that what this tournament could be really useful for City is sort of turbocharging this stage of their evolution because they're clearly in this period where Pep's realised right that team is done I need to build the next great team he's signed a load of players and you know and he started by getting players in in January, but then this gives him even more time to kind of gel ahead of the new season and I'm sure he's hoping will kind of smooth that transition over and they won't have to have, you know, last season can be the transition period and they can go straight into it this season coming.

29:11Two goals for Ilkay Gundogan, who's very much not one of the new rivals. Also, Ryan Cherki, who got his first City goal and so did Claudio Echeverri and a lovely free kick it was too. I think this group I mean there's a few lopsided groups in this tournament but this is probably the most of all you've got Juventus and City and then you've got Allian and Wydad which is obviously a massive jump in quality but you do mention I think whenever you do have those games and as Charlie says you're implementing a new system of new players and new ideas it's just a very easy way for them to buy into it very quickly whenever you're beating teams by five or six goals isn't it and I think that that can breed confidence in it particularly quickly as well whereas they're probably Manchester City if they hadn't been in this tournament probably would have been on a on a very similar pre-season excursion somewhere but whenever you're in a friendly match it's just not the same in terms of how you prepare for them and how you how you get that quicker well it's a very niche thing but I'm enjoying the fact that obviously normally when a club signs players they'll be like they're making their debut in the you know the umbro cup or whatever and they don't count but this is a proper competition so like Turkey's goal is his first goal for City that is a proper goal so it's nice to see you know people hit the grand winning competitive games straight away something I've noticed as well like not so much with this City obviously because there's a lot of change but like watching PSG the other night it's very it's obviously international tournaments are always countries they're national teams who are often kind of especially in the group stages working out how to all play together because they don't do it loads it's very unusual to see it the teams are incredibly well oiled by this point because they've been playing together like they couldn't have been playing together longer they're right at the end of a season they're so in tune with one another so it's just striking watching that with PSG yesterday it's like oh yeah of course they're incredibly coherent and I've thought that about a few of the Brazilian teams as well but you can see they're obviously they're so in sync with one another and it just felt jarring because often group stages are a bit like oh wow yeah can Brazil fit all these amazing forwards together or, you know, is this the right midfield balance for England?

31:17Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You kind of get rid of all that. What's slightly strange in this group then is that Juventus are playing nothing like they've been playing through the season, scoring loads of goals, looking really entertaining. As you said, it is a bit of a lopsided group, but still, this Juve would have stunk the joint out under their previous management against this opposition. and instead they beat Allain 5-0 and the other night got a 4-1 win over Weedad with Keenan Yildiz effectively scoring a hat-trick, although one of them's down as an own goal. He's a really great player from what I've seen.

31:52I mean, I don't watch Juventus every single week, but he's a player that really stands out. He already caught the eye, I think, at the Euros last summer. But here he's been absolutely brilliant and Italian Press, of course, raving about it. but just generally Juve look really, really good. They're very direct. They're very keen on moving the ball upfield as fast as possible. The opposition has to be taken into account, but that's why I guess Thursday night is going to be absolutely fascinating to see which team pet picks and how they get on against a Juventus side who under Tudor are looking. You know, the Tudor age is off to a glorious start.

32:30No one's losing their heads yet. Nice. Nice. The losers of that game probably will be facing Real Madrid in the last 16. Pep doesn't lose games at the Club World Cup or its previous iterations. He's had 10 games there. He's won 10 of them. His team has scored 33 goals and conceded just two. We'll see what Thursday does to that record. Are you looking forward to that game? Will you tune in Thursday night? Well, it'll be at sensible time. Yeah, that will be. Partly, as you say, because the extent to which this Juve renaissance is just they've been playing bad teams, or whether there is something more real there.

33:12Elsewhere at the Club World Cup, we had, speaking of Real Madrid, their first win under Xavier Alonso. They overcame Pachuca of Mexico 3-1 on Sunday, despite playing 83 minutes with a man less. Yeah, I mean, that Drew Bellingham goal was sensational. Incredible finish on his weaker first. Did you see his brother's goal for Borussia Dortmund? Yes, yeah. Very nice in there. 4-3 aforementioned, et cetera, and so on. Victory over Mamalodi Sundance. That was the first victory for Inter's new boss, Christian Kivu, as well, as they beat Urawa Red Diamonds and their stirring set of supporters. Reid, by all means, the ingenious piece by James Horncastle, who stuck for something to do during much of the 90 minutes of this game, which weren't the best, decided to liken into the top TV drama Severance.

34:01It was some success, I felt. I greenlit that piece. Did you? I was very pleased. I mean, it was, you know, Lumenfield. It was right there. Of course. Of course, Lumenfield. And Innie Milan. Innie Milan, yeah. There you go. It works. Yeah. Red Diamonds took the lead in that game. Went to see Red Diamonds. The last match before coming to the Club World Cup. It was at the... Jumping down all game. They very much did. And I was quite surprised when actually the winning goal for Inter, which came in what it was, 92nd minute, actually silenced the fans because nothing had seemed able to stop them until that point.

34:42But as you walk to Saitama Stadium, there's a series of banners outside kind of getting you in the mood, like always red, come on diamonds, that kind of thing. Pro Evo, isn't it? The last one is Sing Out in the Together Wonderland, which I'm going to carry with me always, I think, as a message. It's the Lautaro Martinez equaliser. Yes. Which was pretty spectacular. That was. It was the 78th minute and it was their first shot on target. And he basically kind of leans over backwards towards goal and hooks it over his shoulder and the defenders into the net. Yeah, incredible. So I said that's a really great finish.

35:23and Christian Veri said no, I don't think so. I saw that live. He did not like it, did he? He hasn't slept the night before. Vieri was obviously a huge guest to have and a legend and a very personable fellow. But he does kind of swing between grumpy old man and excited puppy dog-ness, which makes him a very entertaining person to have alongside you on a live TV broadcast, I would say. But anyway, yeah, he said he wasn't sure. He didn't say it definitely wasn't a good finish. She just said, there were a lot of boots in there, he said, suggesting that a lot of boots tried to hit the ball. That one did, and that's what happened.

35:59Is that not what makes it a good finish? Even if he didn't necessarily intend to do exactly what he did, just to put it back towards goal in that situation? Well, I should have asked Christian that question. Yeah, it's not like he's not aiming for goal. I hear you. It's cricket season, so he's probably distracted. Perhaps so, perhaps so. Anyway, Alex Simeon says, on the topic of transfers with Arsenal and Man United, keen on signing a striker, why hasn't Lautaro's name ever been mentioned? I get that he's a bit older than Sesko or Eketike, but he's also been one of the most consistent strikers in the top leagues in the last few years.

36:36It's so true. Why does Lautaro Martinez not care? He signed a new contract last year, didn't he? So I think that probably put the kibosh on it a little bit. I think I mentioned on here before, he Spurs were looking at him and were very interested in him the summer that Kane nearly left to Man City in 2021. Right. But obviously Kane ended up staying so he didn't come. I think as well the World Cup in 2022 maybe not on the teams and their scouts but certainly in kind of the popular view had an outsized effect on how he's viewed because he seemed a little bit hapless missed a lot of chances and I think that shaped the kind of public perception of him.

37:13In this era of scouting. No, sure. I mean obviously they should be beyond that and they're not just watching the World Cup. But yeah, I mean, it's not like the good old days where you just go and sign Philippe Albert off the back of the 94 World Cup. Even now, clubs will sign players and you look up that player and they did get like a hat-trick against that club a year earlier. I love that, yeah. Just sign him. I mean, yeah, and now he's on a long contract and I think the sense was always that he would have been quite hard to get out of Inter. But yeah, I mean, he's certainly got the skills. Well, I think he might also have turned down a move.

37:45He has recently turned down a move to Saudi as well. That's what I mean, yeah. So it's not quite as simple as just saying, let's go and get him. No, but it's interesting why he's not been mentioned. I guess economics of it, not just as a massive transfer fee involved, but you'd imagine he's one of the best-paid forwards in the world. And they might not have quite the resources that some Premier League clubs do, but he must be, I'm imagining, their best-paid player. And he just seems to be their icon, as it were, and they're just not going to let them go. Fair enough. Nearly 28 as well. Okay. Inter and River are level on points and top two in that group, but they've got Monterey just behind them.

38:24And Wednesday night, wee small hours of Thursday morning, Inter play River and that's going to be a huge thing. Inter River, the wild swimming classico as some are calling it. Very nice. Will Inter go down to the river? That's the question for early hours of Thursday morning. Anyway, we'll have an answer to that on Thursday morning's show, when we'll be bleary-eyed doing another roundup of events at the CWC, as all the kids are calling, yeah? Up next, what's going on over at the Unders?

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42:19This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network. Over at the unders, Charlie. Yeah Because there's more than one of them You've got under 21s And the under 19s And excitingly there was a bit of afters at the unders At the end of England Spain In which England's under 21s Beat the favourites 3-1 James McAtee, Harvey Elliott And Elliot Anderson Wow that feels like a huge result Spain the favourites Young Spanish players England's fresh generation That's the unders for you I suppose it is Mad stuff happens down at the unders England will be facing Netherlands in the semi-finals in Bratislava that's on Wednesday evening because England faced Netherlands in the semi-final of the senior euros last summer with great success how do you fancy their chances against the junior version this Wednesday Duncan is the only person here who watched Netherlands in their 1-0 defeat of Portugal on whichever day that was I mean Portugal probably should have won So I fancy, I mean, with the caveat, as we mentioned, that they were Van Bommel-less for much of the game.

43:33So I would fancy England to win. Do you? Yeah. I mean, England, it's funny, you look at the team, there's no one who's like, wow, this is a huge prospect. But there's so much kind of Premier League experience in there. You know, Elliot Anderson, Harvey Elliott, that I think they've just got a bit more know-how than some of the teams there. Intriguingly, while the seniors played Netherlands last summer and this Wednesday the under-21s will face their Dutch counterparts, the under-19s were also up against the Netherlands last Friday in that tournament and they got knocked out 4-2. This was also thanks to the result in another game, the one between Germany and Norway.

44:14But flag this up because not only is that tournament a bit bonkers, This was the England team that had that 5-5 with Germany last week that we mentioned. But also then Germany went on to have a 6-5 on Monday night against Spain. But, and this is really the kicker, the Netherlands team features Lucas Venegor of Hesseling. Any relation? Yes. And he scored as well. So, yeah, in that 4-2 victory for the Orangie. Rangie. Very good. Anyway, back to the under-21s. And there was also, last weekend, an Italy-Germany quarterfinal, which was pretty entertaining stuff. Italy took the lead against the Germans, then shipped two goals, then had two men sent off, then, with nine men equalised with the last kick of the 90.

45:07Partele, nostro numero nove. Si! Si! E' l 'Italia! E' l 'Oegra! C 'è la giustizia! C 'è la giustizia! Del calcio! and then conceded a goal just a few minutes short of penalties. Oof, heartbreaking. Germany have got, is it Nick Voltermann? Yeah. Who's really tall. Sounds a bit like... He must not be named. Exactly. But also... He's quite scary as well. He's 23, which I know is in the rules because it's like you'll be 21 at the start of the qualification and stuff. Right. But it does feel slightly cheating having a massive 23-year-old. He's massive. Yeah. Five years out of Hogwarts. Yeah. Yeah. yours for 50 ,000 quidditch or whatever I've never read it he certainly stood out in that game have you not?

45:51you've not read your kids aren't into it they might have read it at some point but I didn't get involved not with you no ok also standing out in that game Diego Coppola who will be at Brighton next season who's generally regarded as one of the good things about Italy's national prospects at the moment hey anyway that's enough about the you know junior yeah we're over the unders I've got a question for you do you want to sign a foreign keeper in Korea you can't why is that Colin well South Korea have had a ban on foreign goalkeepers from 1999 but just goalkeepers just goalkeepers I feel players are fine but you have to be a South Korean to be a goalkeeper in the K League well that was the case for 26 years.

46:42It will be changing next year because the K League have lifted that ban. It's now moving to right back. What's prompted it? Well, the league say that there was disproportionate wage demands and they also cited the fact that when the ban was introduced... So what, Korean keepers were demanding loads of money because they knew that... So essentially, it was a specialist position and there was only so many South Korean goalkeepers available so they could obviously ask for more money I guess. But also, whenever the ban was introduced, they had 10 professional clubs, and now I think they've got 26 across the top two divisions.

47:16So there is obviously a need to have more goalkeepers in general. But I was sort of thinking, this sort of thing is, it's obviously quite uncommon in football. And I guess it's an interesting argument in certain contexts, if does that help player development and so on. And I guess the most famous example was Italy, after the 1966 World Cup. and they banned foreign players coming in altogether. And then I think they lifted that partially in 1980 or something. And then you had three for much of the 90s. And I guess that played a big part in how Italian football subsequently developed into what it was.

47:53Obviously, it's a very different circumstance. I mean, there are big kind of social issues as well. People talk a lot about the way that kids were brought up. And there were a lot of kids who used to go to Sunday schools at the oratories. And you would play a lot of football in those days. And that kind of Albertini, for example, who was part of that great Italian generation, both for Milan and Italy, Dmitri Albertini, he always used to talk about the fact that that whole kind of culture of learning football had almost entirely disappeared in Italy. I don't know if that's... How is that related?

48:25Because you'd have those Italian players growing up with that sense of an Italian game and learning indeed the basics of those in regular sessions. I mean, you do have, obviously, kids play football in Italy, but, hmm, I don't know. It's a mystery for the Italians why it's gone quite the way it has, but my word, it has gone that way. Well, Siddharth Cattuso. I think the idea of having specific positions is interesting as well. Yeah, like England with the perennial left-sided issue, the 90s and noughties. Portuguese people having no centre forwards. You know, yeah. Each country could nominate one position, but they're not allowed.

49:00Not allowed one. I mean, equally, if you're allowed foreign managers, should you be allowed one position that you're allowed to draft in a... Should you be conceded one position where you are allowed to ring? That's not football. Yeah. Maybe. Obviously not. That's a stupid idea. Let's move on. No, but a lot of people would say it's just as arbitrary. Like, I think to some non-football people they would find it quite odd that you can just bring in a foreign manager and bring in foreign coaching staff and just a completely different way of thinking. Like, it is, you know... I'm not to get kind of all jingoistic about it, but I can see why people would be like, oh, that's odd.

49:36I don't think it's jingoistic. If you think there's a value in having national team football as some kind of mechanism by which you evaluate the respective strengths of various nations based on the footballing culture that they produce, to then drop in the manager, who's arguably the most important figure of all, from another country, does seem to make a mockery of the whole thing. But we kind of get on with it, so, okay. Exactly, and you can dismiss people as being like, oh, that's xenophobic. It's like, well, that is kind of how international football works. It's like, yes, it is prejudicial.

50:04We don't allow people from other countries to play. Yeah. Yeah. Crikey, on the subject of Italian teams that were great in the 90s but aren't so much anymore, Andy Jennings says, please can we have a three-part series on Solanitana Sampdoria? Woof. You probably saw this. This was the big Sampdoria relegation to Serie A. storyline that's been rolling on for well over a month now. What do you think, guys? Should we pull up a chair and tell sad stories of the death of great Italian teams?

50:43Part one in Annie Jenny's three-part series, I think, act one would be Sam Doria, who, if you don't follow them, were Italian champions in 1991, reached the European Cup final at Wembley the following summer against Barcelona and were a proper side. The players that came through there. The Klatt and all that. Well, yeah, but even before that, you had Viali and Mancini, the goal twins. You had so many great players there. Viejo Ward and Lombardo and all that. Franz Carr. Did Franz Carr? No, he didn't. Daniel Dicchio did. Daniel Dicchio was there. Franz Carr was a Reggiano or Regina? Regina. He was a Regina.

51:23Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, the 90s, though, saw Sam's star progressively wane, especially after the death of their patron, Paolo Mantovani. The real kicker for them was the disastrous ownership of a fellow called Massimo Ferreira, who was this jaunty Roman film producer. He often wore a kind of exotic scarf and ended up jailed for corporate crimes and bankruptcy, to quote. And amidst all of which, he wasn't able to, He was never investing anyway. Couldn't offload the club. They slid into annual relegation battles and finally, May 23, they went down. They were then bought by Andrea Radrizani, the former Leeds owner.

52:04Oh, yeah. And last summer, he appointed Andrea Pirlo as their manager. Then, four games later, he appointed Andrea Sottil as their manager. Then, 12 games after that, he appointed Leonardo Semplici as their manager. And then, with relegation looking very, very, very much a prospect. Towards the end of the last season, there was a big change and they went back to the well. They went back to the glory team of the late 80s, early 90s. They brought in Kiko Ivani, who you remember wearing the fellow who stood next to Mancini in Italy's Euro 21. Oh, yeah. The really daffa guy with the amazing glasses.

52:42That's Kiko Ivani. Yeah. Anyway, he came in as manager, but with pretty much all the rest of the team helping out in some role or other. Attila Lombardo was on board in Venezia. Mancini was in, but not officially, but his son, Andrea Mancini, is the sporting director. The result of which was they went down anyway. And this was them going down to the third division for the first time in their history. Here we come on to Act Two.

53:14Act Two. Hang on, everybody. Because a couple of hundred kilometres to the east, Enter Massimo Chilino, Destroyer of Dreams And indeed Brescia Now again, Brescia were Never at sample levels But they were a proper side I remember them They had Baggio play for them in the 90s In that Baggio team There was an 11 for a while that featured him Pep Guardiola and Luca Toni up front There was another Brescia team that had him And Andrea Pirlo playing together as well Where are Brescia now? They don't exist They avoided relegation at the end of last season season by one point however the league then went Chilino hasn't settled his debts and as such incurs a four-point penalty for the club for next season and one to follow the season after Chilino went well in that case we're not going to participate next season we're just going to wind the club up and similar to that he basically ended Brescia Just a huge button in the ring Beep See ya Gone Anyway With Brascia Officially dropping four points In the table for last season That means that Sam Kind of moved up Out of the automatic drop spots And instead Got a playoff They inherited a playoff spot That would have belonged to A team called Froziononi A playoff spot That matched them Against Salernitana And here I think we're ready for The Denouement Act 3

54:45so Salernitana from Salerno which is kind of the unfashionable end of the Amalfitana Riviera in centuries gone by these two sets of fans would have would have been very much at loggerheads because Sampa from Genoa and Amalfi was the the great naval republics of the kind of Italian middle ages Pisa and Venezia the other two but this was a big thing and it's more than enough to get a couple of tifuzeria at each other's throws. Anyway, Salernitana got relegated the previous season from Serie A. They were in the playoff from Serie B to C this season and they now had to face Sampdoria who effectively were a worse team statistically than Frozionni but still were pretty irate with the league for having swapped things around because of the Brescia decision they had to postpone the first leg at the playoff.

55:39Anyway, when it finally... Unlike Brescia, Selena Tana were in Serie A late 90s. I remember they got promoted. Rigoberts Song played for them. Gattuso played for them after he came back from Rangers. Yeah, no, obviously Rigoberts Song was there. But they were in Serie A a couple of seasons back when they went through, I think, four managers. Pepo Inzaghi was one of them. But yeah, they'd been on a bit. This was them effectively playing to escape a second successive relegation. The first leg against Sampdoria when it finally takes place, sees them at the Marassi Stadium in Genoa, where Sampdoria, backed by a fervent crowd, win 2-0.

56:17Goals from Meli Mühlenstein, son of and brother of also, and Marco Curto with Fabio Borini sent off in the 92nd minute. Very exciting. After that, Salernitana returned to the south, But on the way, on the plane back, which must have been dramatic, 21 members of their players and staff were struck down by a really violent bout of food poisoning. Theories... Lasagna gate. Exactly. Sparking a lot of chat amongst... Lasagna gate. Anyway, as a result of which, they requested that the second leg be postponed because effectively, I mean, no one was in a position to make any runs. because they had them, etc.

57:08And how did that go down? Not the lack of food, but yeah. The league accepted the fact that medically it was a bit of an impossibility, so the return leg was postponed until this Sunday. The Salerno Santa fans, meantime, the ultras, had taken a pretty diverse position between the different groups on how this return leg should be treated at the Arecchi Stadium down in Salerno. Diretivo Salerno, who are one of the kind of Salerno groups, put out a statement, as ultra groups in Italy like to do, saying, I'm going to try and say this, the physical and spiritual union between the fans and the club is finally made true.

57:52Now you understand how we've been feeling. It's two years you've made us vomit. The Salerno, we are the Salerno who do not bend. I hate these corporate statements. There are groups put out nowadays. The Dittetival Ultras, meantime, said that, no, now more than ever, it's the time to pull out our pride and get behind the team. So they did turn up to the Areci Stadium where, of course, their team needed to score three goals. However, oh, and they did get one, but then it was called back for a handball. But then the Salerno fans say that there was more than a handball when three minutes after that, Sampdoria then took the lead, going 3-0 up on aggregate.

58:33this was just before the break second half gets underway Salona's going to come roaring out and Sam score again so now they're 2-0 up number two yeah of the game after which things get very very ugly as you've probably seen there's flares thrown there's bangers there's seats lobbed at the pitch twice the referee has to suspend the game and take the players off and then eventually it's abandoned which means now that officially it's been put down as a 3-0 win for Sam Sampdoria and also Salernitana get a couple of games behind closed doors. Next season, down in the third division. As for Sampdoria, 40 days after they were first relegated, they finally found out that they're staying up.

59:19We've all learnt lessons, said their president. Well, also learning a lesson is probably... Don't get the catering at the morass here. Well, quite. Probably the Genoa fan who... I don't know if anyone's seen this. there was a tattoo celebrating Sam's relegation to the Serie C which was turned out to be slightly prematurely done I mean I guess as you sort of alluded to there, Sam are many people's second team really in Italian football I think people maybe sort of look at them very fondly in terms of the sort of nostalgic element to it. They have a great kit. Well they still do I mean it's a lovely kit.

59:54ERG. Yeah. The old sponsor. Yeah. And I guess the sort of lesson. I'm not advocating Brexit. I guess the lesson from this entire string of Brechers, Amdoria, Thalentani of teams who just got this boom and bust cycle of ownership and one of the things actually, this is very comparable to Spanish football, so that would have been the case maybe 15 or 20 years ago, but since they brought in all their financial regulations, which a lot of top clubs don't seem to like because they see it's restricting how much they can spend and the players they can sign, it's actually brought a lot of club stability and you don't really get those cycles happening anymore of course you don't see them going out of business you don't really see multiple relegations at once those are things of the past and i guess that is the one thing that italian football could probably be very useful for at an institutional level the one thing well one of the many i would assume well well understand anyway best lots of lintano from what i can see probably up for sale now so and that might be a good thing because effectively this club doesn't seem to have been run very well they've had two straight relegations if anything oh yeah um i wonder is it the same in italy is there an italian podcast sat saying oh look at qpr in mid-table in the championship remember in the 90s when they had les ferdinand and yeah 11 gallon yeah yeah anyway there you go uh many thanks andy jennings for prompting that and I look forward to your libretto on the subject that's probably it for today's show but we've got plenty of things to discuss when we return on Thursday not just the Club World Cup and under 21 stuff also Paul Pogba's return he's at Monaco see how that turns out Darwin Nunes could be off to Napoli all that kind of transfer for fun and games.

1:01:52Plus... What's the thing that's going to be? Kevin De Bruyne are putting through balls for Nunes to hit the woodwork so Scott McTominay can follow in. I mean, that's a tactical masterstroke.

1:02:04Plus, there'll be the second quarterfinal in the Intertotally Cup. Let's see, who's this going to feature? Tom Williams against... Charlie Eccleshare. Ooh. Now, Tom Williams, I mean, he's a player, runner-up in 2023 and 2024, How's he going to do in 2025? Well, Charlie, you were runner-up yourself in 2022. Yeah, so this is the fight for the right to get to the final and get beaten. Maybe, maybe. Who knows? Maybe it's one of our years. The winner will be facing Julien Laurent in the semifinal. Because I don't know if you heard our first round. He dispatched Benji Laniado. Oh, Mr. Catcake's got a question.

1:02:45One last question. Will Julian Cruz Pass England's finest En route to the final Much like His beloved PSG Well we just don't know But Mr Catcate I urge you To listen in on Thursday See if England's finest Can get past Wales's finest Very true Tom's Welsh this week See Ah good Yeah no ringers allowed on that Never played each other before We learnt in the build up To the tournament Who? Charlie and Tom Charlie and Tom Yeah felt like he had Had clashed But no No I know Not in the club Not in the inter-de-car. Just in a car park, yeah. We often do clash. It'd be good to do it in a formal setting this time.

1:03:23Excellent. What flights of fancy are you away to green light now? I'm heavily focusing on Tour de France stuff. Okay, you've got Wimbledon, Charlie. Yeah, starts on Monday. Colin, for you? Yeah, I've actually got a piece coming out on the footballers who are being released this summer and the issue surrounding that and how football deals with pre-care and after-care of a lot of academy players who leave the system. Because out of every 200 players that enter the sort of professional academy system, only one will become a professional footballer. Half a percent makes it. When you say professional, so that's what, top four leagues?

1:04:01Yeah, yeah, yeah. So essentially it has a full-time career, more than a handful of games at one of the top four divisions. Half a percent of everyone entering the professional... I'm sorry, I'm just repeating things back to you. Yeah, the statistics behind it are incredible. And I think it's one of those issues that, actually I was speaking to Johnny Gorman, who he played briefly in the Premier League for Wills. He had nine caps for Northern Ireland, but this was all when he was 17 or 18. And a couple of years later, he just essentially dropped out of the professional game. He's now a sports psychologist and he's produced these academic papers on the subject.

1:04:35Fascinating, just the scale of it, but also how every footballer is essentially sold a dream. And understandably so at that age, but they buy into it to the extent that it becomes their personality and their own identity. So when they leave that system, they become directionless and lost and it's very, very difficult for them to sort of readjust into normal society. So it's pretty much challenging that and what football could and should be doing, both in terms of how it helps develop these sort of young adults and they're actually fully formed citizens and not just a footballer, but also then whenever they leave the system, what can football clubs do?

1:05:11And there's maybe more of an understanding in the past, but a lot more needs to be done. And it's just a very timely piece with 30th of June essentially being the time all these contracts expire and a lot of these kids will just not play professional football again and be in that structure. So, yeah, it is a serious issue, but hopefully one that will improve. Okay, 30th of June, did you say? Yeah, that's essentially the expiration dates for the contract. OK, and that's when the peace is out. Yeah. I look forward to reading that. Colin, thank you so much. Thank you for being with us today as well.

1:05:41And Duncan, Charlie, producer Charlie too, and you, listener, we return on Thursday. Do join us then for now. From all of us here, it's goodbye.

1:06:06and all the usual places. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

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