Can Arsenal do the Champions League + Premier League double?

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1:36The Athletic FC.

1:45Mark Carey: Totally Football Show. Today, I can't believe it's Budapest. Tuesday, Arsenal's bottled up emotions bursting out as their side book their place in the Champions League final. Wednesday PSG booked theirs after handling Bayern and the ball a fair bit in a brilliant performance in Bavaria from Godfather to Weekend at Bernie's 2 how was Wednesday's sequel to last week's giddy nine-goal classic and Benoit against Kvara etc what awaits in the final plus in a good week for the Gunners after Monday's Man City Merseyside meltdown we look at that game and put out a missing persons on that funny Man City fan with the bottle he was everywhere hope he's alright all that and much much more in this Totally Football Show Unbelievable, unbelievable this.

2:55Mark Carey: Champions League final sorted. On the 30th of May, Arsenal will be facing Paris Saint-Germain at the Pushkas Arena in Budapest. Boy, things move fast, don't they, in football? It seems only a week ago that Arsenal were a bunch of bottlers who were fumbling their way to a disappointing finale on all fronts, Jay. Yeah, and I think one of the biggest differences in the last four or five days has been Marcel Lewis-Gelly playing in midfield. It was a really big gamble for Arteta to do that against Fulham at the weekend. I think it was only his first midfield start at senior level, but he did play there in Arsenal's academy.

3:31And it's just given Arsenal a bit more energy in midfield, something a little bit different. I think he's really good at driving forward, but also has the confidence to play some very progressive passes between the lines. And it's just given them a bit of energy. But we also can't overlook the significance of Saka being back in the starting lineup. And what that does to the crowd at the Emirates just gives them a massive lift every time he's on the ball. All right.

3:54Mark Carey: Crowd of the Emirates. Look no further than Duncan Alexander. You were there on the Hornsier Road roundabout waving your red flare. Yeah, definitely. What was it like, Duncan? It was an experience. I think, you know, for a long time, the Emirates was seen as a bit of a sort of, you know, corporate bowl with not much atmosphere, particularly when Arsenal were struggling. you know you'd often look at games at the end there'd be a lot of red seats but I think um this was a sort of authentic you know almost Anfield like European atmosphere I mean there was there were flares before the game as you mentioned there was singing in the concourse which sounds pretty trite but actually you don't really get Arsenal um and then but it was you know people in their seats like 20 minutes before the game again unheard of right um and then yeah the atmosphere from kickoff all the way through was was extraordinary and I think the to Jay's point I think the players certainly fed off that.

4:50There were a lot of Dan Burns-style fist pumps of the crowd after a throw-in and things like that. And yeah, it kind of showed the... I mean, we saw the atmosphere that Atleti fans could make last week. And I think Arsenal fans did the same. And it definitely did make a difference. I think the second half was a lot more comfortable than it could have been in a European Cup semi-final. And that was, yeah, sort of fans and team in tandem.

5:15Mark Carey: it's been a huge week for Arsenal with that and the Man City draw on Monday that the final week of May could be even bigger they've never won the Champions League they haven't won a Premier League title in 22 years they could saw up both in the space of seven days absolutely and they could

5:31Duncan Alexander: do with obviously they could do with winning all of their games but they could wrap it up or at least go a really long way by winning against West Ham which would then allow them I think if they were to depends on I suppose how other results go if they were to maybe get to the final game of the season be able to rest and rotate some players that would then allow them to have greater freshness in the final right but obviously i suppose we would have to wait to see um how manchester city get on it a lot of waiting and seeing it's still a week which i think is fine you know i mean in the old days obviously the european cup final was on wednesday i mean manchester knight had to rest players in the fa cup final in 99 ahead of the before completing the treble um so there is a bit of time and i suppose you don't want to leave it too long in terms of resting players for the final game they're not having that freshness because the other example would probably be Liverpool against Spurs.

6:15Duncan Alexander: It was June the 1st, if I recall. Three weeks. And it was quite some time. And the game itself was quite stodgy, I think, because not all of the players were really kind of... Pre-season friendly. ...conditioned. Yeah, so it can go too much the other way, I think, at times. I think your point about the Everton game on Monday was key as well. I mean, I must have heard the words Tiano Barry mentioned 50, 60 times.

6:34Mark Carey: So that was part of what lit the fire at the Emirates. Yeah, definitely. I mean, people were talking about it constantly before the game. it was almost like the door had opened up and suddenly everyone was in this kind of state of euphoria. Whereas I think we've seen Arsenal games in recent weeks, the Bournemouth game particularly, where everyone's kind of nervous and tephing. How funny. Conversely, were they to go to Budapest having not won the title? What would that mean for their chances? Mark, you came in going, does anyone seriously think Arsenal have a chance? I'm paraphrasing slightly against Paris Saint-Germain.

7:05Mark Carey: We'll answer that question in a bit. Perhaps shall we start off by looking at what PSG got up to on Wednesday?

7:41Mark Carey: Wednesday night at the Allianz Arena. Bayern Munich won. Paris Saint-Germain also won. Putting the holders through to the Champions League final. After a very, very dominant performance. Jay, the game in general, we wanted Godfather 2. What did we actually get? Phantom Menace? Phantom Menace, by the way. Oh my word. Sorry. This is for another time. I hope it doesn't work, because Phantom Menace is the first of a new trilogy. You can't have that. But it came out afterwards. You can have Attack of the Clones. I like Attack of the Clones. Well, no, I can't have Attack of the Clones. Only if I'm calling the first game Phantom Menace, which I am most assuredly not.

8:20Mark Carey: The only thing I could do then is have The Empire Strikes Back. That would be the... But are you saying that last week's game was... Godfather 1. ...more entertaining than a trade alliance? Fine. Not for me to say that. I can't agree. Favorite expression. Sorry, I hijacked. No, no, no. No, but Mark, what age were you when you saw Phantom Menace? I would have been six. Yeah, there you go. Okay. I've seen it since, multiple times. But, you know, there's an association with symptoms. Darth Maul redeems it, but otherwise... Does he, though? I like that fight at the end. How old were you when you saw it?

8:56When did it come out? 99?

8:58Duncan Alexander: 2000, I think. Well, I was four when it came out, so I probably saw it same age as Mark. yeah anyway we don't need to go into all of that a uh what did you make of the game i actually really enjoyed the game because everybody was expecting a goal fest and what we got was still really entertaining two teams um with lots of attacking talent on show i do think commentary said at one point there were more shots in this game than there were in the game last week and certainly yeah and certainly i don't think desiree dwey michael elise a they both had great opportunities to score and even Neuer made a good save or Safinov made a good save or it just went wide but I was just really taken aback by how well PSG defended like Carrot Skelly in particular there were just so many times especially in the second half when legs would have been tired minds would have been tired where he's just busting a gut to to get back and help out Warren Zerameri or Nuno Mendes on the other side and it was just a real complete performance you The build-up to these two games was all about PSG and Bayern Munich, these irresistible attacking riches versus Arsenal's stubborn defence.

10:02Whereas I think PSG actually went, well, when required, we can defend determinately as well. So really, really interesting that they showed that other side of their game. And they were helped by the fact that they took the lead just three minutes in. Yeah, that's always useful. I mean, you can obviously score two early in games, but I think in that context, when you're already a goal up, it's perfect. I mean, just looking at the stats, You know, they had 15 shots, but they only made 212 passes with a 70 % pass completion rate, which is, that's more League One than League One. But it was what the situation required.

10:33And they never really looked, I mean, yes, by an equaliser, but it was way too late.

10:38Mark Carey: Right, that was in the, I think, 94th minute or something. 35 % possession PSG had, but as Duncan says, they didn't need to do anything else.

10:45Duncan Alexander: No, I thought they were really intelligent with the way that they defended, because the main sort of narrative was that they were sitting in and having a sort of a deep block and they did stifle the space for Bayern Munich and that forward line thrives off space for Bayern Munich and they stifled them in that regard because they didn't need to go chasing the game. PSG obviously offers such an amazing counter-attacking threat anyway that they still had those chances but I thought it was very intelligent the way that their midfielders were being quite versatile and flexible so Nuno Mena's got the yellow card quite early on and everyone was sort of had a bit of a question mark over him to be like okay will he be able to last the whole game because he's he's walking a bit of a tightrope but Fabian Ruiz started in possession as well started on that left-hand side but also tucked in defensively out of possession and at times PSG was sort of creating a bit of a back five and he and that allowed Mendes to be a little bit more safe and just kind of block the space and Ruiz was the one to go out sometimes and then on other occasions it was Jaunevez who was going between the centre-backs at times when they were dropping deep which had allowed Marquinhos to kind of shuffle across and then Warren Zaire Emery to sort of be a bit more of a man marker as well so they were always just blocking space but in a in the same way that they're fluid in possession they were able to just kind of plug gaps out of possession as well which I thought was so intelligent.

11:56I felt a bit sorry for Vincent Company because after the first leg both managers were like yeah this is football this is how you play football more of the same in the second leg Vincent Company went yeah cool and then Lewis and Ricky was like yeah and like tricked him and it was almost I think it took mine quite a long time to realize hang on this isn't last week and you could see that um the elise and diaz and came were all frustrated at points you can tell by how far harry kane drops back it's getting deeper and deeper at points company was dressed for a big night out as well looked like he was about to hit the town in shoreditch or yeah yeah he did speak that uh extraordinarily paris saint

12:31Mark Carey: jermain's first six shots on target across the two legs all went in wow the parallels with last year with PSG again finishing low down in the league phase but then really coming to life in the in the knockout stages this time around they're doing it without Donnarumma who was seen as a prime factor of them getting to the final last time they did it on Wednesday without Hakimi as well although possibly given the nature of their of their game plan that wasn't the the biggest of issues Jay you were referencing a uh a comment from somebody about what Mbappe must be thinking yeah so we had um a couple messages from jcole cfc on on twitter i'm sure we can all guess where the inspiration for that handle came from but just pointing out like how must mbappe be feeling because he's not won a trophy during his time at real madrid and psg have made back-to-back champions league finals without him and i think that sort of just speaks to the the change in the psg project for want of a better word over the last couple of years and the change in focus on who they recruit well indeed and one of the recruits is another subject of another jcole message.

13:35Mark Carey: Kovárez Galia probably won't be in the Ballon d 'Or conversation because of Georgia not being in the workout but I thought he was the best player on the pitch. He makes top defenders in Europe look like kids. Riccardo Mantio saying Olisse, Kane, Dembele, Vicinho all get Ballon d 'Or mentions. Surely Kovárez Galia needs to be on the short list. I think he's the best in Europe. Duncan? Yeah he is. He was outstanding but to Jay's point right at the end when Bayern you know theoretically still had a chance of getting a little goal um Karat Scalier sort of won a free kick on the touchline and the heart from Diaz yes yeah and the whole bench just ran up and were like kind of cheering and it was a sort of show of unity that I don't think you'd have got a couple of years ago you know but also the the build-up to Dembele's goal Karat Scalier sort of drops into a central part of the pitch pops off the ball and then makes that running behind and pulls it back for Dembele just every time I watch him I just think he must be a defender's nightmare because he's so good either on his left foot or his right foot so you you're trying to prevent him coming in and kerning it top corner on his right because he's so good at that but then he can take you to the behind and cross it in so your mind must be all over the place thinking how on earth to actually prevent this guy because no matter what way he goes he's going to get the ball in the box in

14:48Duncan Alexander: some way shape or form on that goal though do you think i mean it was the second third minute do you think that it was naive from by munich especially when they're chasing the game to think if they they push on the halfway line. I know they like to play a high line. Don't they play the whole 90 minutes like that? Yeah, but I feel like there's a bit of pragmatism when it is knockout football, it's do or die. They were a goal down. They needed to sort of play their way into the game. And they played well overall, but if that goal obviously hadn't gone in and they were just feeling their way into the game and then Kane scores that goal, then it goes to extra time, et cetera.

15:19Duncan Alexander: So I just feel like there's an opportunity. And I know that it's you live by the sword, you die by the sword. That's the way that they play. It's the way that they scored so many of their goals in the league and in the Champions League. but even just a couple of yards, or just know that players like that, they're obviously full of energy in the first few minutes, that they can spin. And just, if you've got that much open space and you're any of those elite players, you're thriving off it. There were only a goal down in the tie at that point, right? Where they were playing as if they were three goals down in the tie.

15:46So it's like you've got to half-time at now, no, fine. Yeah, exactly.

15:50Mark Carey: Fadal Schellier with 10 goals and six assists in the Champions League this season. and he's scored or assisted in his last seven games in this competition. Can I give a shout out to Zaire Emery as well? Because I thought he struggled in the beginning of the game against Diaz. But as it went on, I thought he got more assured and more composed. As long as he's playing in an unfamiliar position, he's central midfielder, he's playing at right back. And Diaz was very tricky. And I thought he was going to be Bayern's best source of a goal at one point. But as the game went on, I thought he did really well.

16:22But then on the other side, I was quite disappointed by Marco Elise.

16:26Mark Carey: Yeah, and Bayern generally, you felt they played well, but it was a frustrating night for them. They didn't seem to have that same ease with which they played when they were away from home a week ago.

16:37Duncan Alexander: Yeah, no, I do think that overall they played well, but I also agree that they played well overall, but they were up against a side who were able to nullify them a little bit. And if they're playing against a team in the Bundesliga who are sitting in, they've got the individual quality to still unlock that because the gap of quality in the Bundesliga for a lot of the teams is quite big but they're playing against a team who's so elite at pressing really high but also sitting in as well and playing more of a deep block they were just as we said before they were getting frustrated with the fact that they just weren't able to exploit that space and Diaz and Alise on either side Kane less so because he can drop into sort of different pockets and drop deep but those two thrive off space they thrive off 1v1 battles and winning them.

17:17Duncan Alexander: And when they're doubled up on, when PSG were forming a back five at times, and when they're crossing it into a congested penalty area, that frustration builds and builds and builds. Although Jonathan Tarr had a really good chance just for half-time, like a completely free header that he put wide. And if that had gone in, you know, won all at half-time, I think that changes the complexion. I think the Musiala chance is bigger, better, made and wrong. But that was right before half-time as well. Very clever back heel from elite. And Musiala was really quiet in the game. And then there was that five-minute spell before half-time where I think he also tried to curl one in from the left-hand side of the box.

17:48But me and Mark were just really watching the highlights. And Musiala just hits it bottom corner and Safinoff dies the right way. And I think he's got to put it in there. He's got to reverse the ball back into the other corner at that point, which is a real shame because if that goes in just before half-time, then the second half could have been very exciting.

18:05Mark Carey: As it was, the goal for Bayern came right at the end of the game, as we mentioned. Came with his 55th of the season. He's now scored 140 goals for the club in a little bit less than three seasons. They were maybe outplayed, maybe a little bit out of sorts. Were they unfairly treated by the calls? There were two handball shouts. One was for Nuno Mendes, who was already on a yellow card and has an arm out which blocks a Bayern attack. And then about a minute after that, Jean Neves very, very visibly blocks the ball in his own box. Now, given that this was a week after Bayern had been penalised by one of the most harsh handball decisions, without which, by the way, it would have ended up all square and we'd have gone with extra time.

18:56Mark Carey: But anyway, a week after that, there was outrage in the Allianz Arena that this one wasn't given. Word spread that the reason that the referees hadn't given it was because the ball had been struck by one of his own teammates and that in fact there was a website that I think even the BBC linked to this which has got the iFab logo logo at the top saying if the ball is struck by your own teammate it's not not a handball offense but it's actually not an iFab site that and the actual iFab site doesn't make any reference to this I am back to being mystified this morning as to why that wasn't given Duncan the phantom explanation um yeah I mean it I mean we know that in European competition you get handball penalties fairly easily so not this time though not this time um i mean i do think i mean no offense to xiao pedro silva pinero the referee but you shouldn't really have referees that look scared he just has a face that looks he looked like he was like really worried the whole game and so every decision he made i think just didn't feel very authoritative as unfortunate as it would be

19:54Duncan Alexander: for bayern i do think that both there's mitigation for both so the nuna mendes one is is kind of uh irrelevant almost because it was the conrad limer handball that was identified by i think the but was that even a handball yeah i mean that was i think at that point it had already been given i think it did go a little bit onto his right arm and then by that point it did make the um the subsequent handball that everyone and i don't think there was too much in the replay about that i've watched the highlights since and they they haven't pointed back towards the fact that it was a handball initially by conrad limer which makes the whole thing irrelevant um so i think that one is there's mitigation for that one it unfortunately it is just the the law i don't want to be that person who says well it's the letter of the law because there's football in common sense with the handball for joan neves it's for tina who basically clears it yeah joan neves is just scared stiff so he just puts his arm but which bit is the is the law on that then the the if it comes off one of

20:48Mark Carey: your own and not according to the ifab website it's not there's no mention of that i've seen

20:53Duncan Alexander: other people um linked to a page with i've on the top bbc sport is my the source that i got it from where he said this, I was listening to a podcast this morning about it. Right. And he did also suggest that that was the case. I believe that it is the law. Yeah, I wouldn't. He knows his iFab. Okay, just strange to you,

21:09Mark Carey: the iFab website doesn't mention anything about your player from your own team. Yeah, but the iFab website is mainly just a menu for people in a hotel in Wales every day and going to fiddle around. Although they do have every meeting as a PDF back to the 19th century.

21:26Duncan Alexander: Okay, there is quite an extensive section, descending the thing but okay fair enough fair enough but i do think it is while frustrating i do kind of get it that the thing is if it came off vitina if it was a teammate and it hit your own teammate yeah but it was going towards the goal yes you'd be more yeah i would be outraged by the fact that it was cleared like there's neves is not trying to gain an advantage implicit or otherwise in any way by handling the ball because it's trying to the ball is intended to go away from the goal if it had come off a teammate's head and was going towards the goal and then it handballs as handball and then that's deemed to not be handball.

22:01Duncan Alexander: That would be, I think, outrageous. All right.

22:03Mark Carey: Well, Paris Saint-Germain probably were the winners anyway. Yes. Are they better than they were last year? Do they look a more complete side than they did going into the final last year? As good? About the same. About the same, apart from they don't have Donnarumma and goal. Okay. And if you remember, particularly the second leg of the semi-final against Arsenal. Right. He produced, I mean he looked dodgy on crosses in that game but apart from that he did one save from an Odegaard shot which I still don't know how his arm didn't shatter when he stopped it because it was one of those shots you see and look well that's in and then the next thing is it's deflecting out and yeah so that's a source of hope I guess for Arsenal but yeah they're clearly the best team on the continent once again What do you think then Jay?

22:51I think it will be difficult for for arsenal i think the fact that they've got some key players returning to full fitness saka odegaard habits helps massively if if this matchup was two weeks ago i'd be a little bit

23:07Mark Carey: worried the last two cup competitions have seen them exit with really disappointing results the man city league cup final but also the fa cup against saints yeah but that experience of the Cup final might do them a little bit of good and I think if you look at teams who win the Champions League they don't normally win it at the first attempt they sort of need to be in the semi-final final for a couple of years Liverpool are a really good example and I think this is Arsenal's second semi-final in a row it's the first time they've done it in their history they've been in the Carabao Cup final and I do think that experience of how to manage those big occasions might happen.

23:44What do you think about Lewis Skelly as well I think if he'd have played in the Carabao Cup final would have made a difference because Arsenal just got stuck, didn't they, progressing the ball. I think that's part of the reason this has all come around. It's the third time Arsenal have reached two cup finals in a single season. In 1980, they lost the FA Cup and Cup Winners Cup finals. In 1993, they won both the FA Cup and League Cup in two of the worst games ever played. And then this year. So, I mean, if there's some sort of balance, they've lost one, maybe now it's time to win.

24:11Mark Carey: It's a convincing argument. Should we have a quick word about what they did on Tuesday? against Atletico Madrid, a 1-0 scoreline on the night, which gave them a 2-1 win on aggregate. The 30th clean sheet of the season. Only two shots on target for each side in this game. Both of Arsenal's came in them scoring the goal in the 45th minute. Trossard with the initial shot and then Saka to finish it off. The crowd were up for it and the players were two and players were in the side who weren't there before. others have stepped up their game in a remarkable fashion like Jokka is all in all it seems a little bit of that kind of early season swagger that Arsenal had lost has returned is that fair?

24:55Duncan Alexander: I think so I think that the Fulham game I don't want to downplay the victory but I think Fulham had a lot of illness in the camp and it just even I mean you take any luck and serendipity that you can it just allowed Arsenal to kind of play in a way that they would normally want to play and And then the shackles are off a little bit. And I do think that fed into then the performance against Atleti, as well as the Manchester City result as well, that just allowed them to play with confidence. I think in general, we've always said this about all the English teams, I suppose, in the Champions League.

25:24Duncan Alexander: When teams actually try to go toe-to-toe with them, they can often come out or they will often come out on top. Obviously, Arsenal are undefeated in the Champions League this season. It's often when they're trying to break down that low block, which Atleti had at times, of course. But when they go for it a little bit more, and the game is a bit more back and forth, toe-to-toe, as I say, I think Arsenal will always come out on top more often than not because of the quality that they have. Whether or not they'll be able to do the same against PSG is a different story because they're just kind of otherworldly.

25:53Duncan Alexander: But I do think that having Myles Lewis-Gelliot as a bit more of a sort of optimistic player, whether it is like dropping deeper and then playing those 30 passes, but also adding an extra body inside the opposition block. I think Zubimendi does it sometimes, but Rice certainly doesn't. He likes to come deep to collect it and then nothing has changed in the opposition block. They're like, fine, have it there. We're going to stay and do as we were doing before. Whereas Lewis Kelly just asks questions. I think that's kind of sometimes what then has a knock-on effect to then get the ball to Saka, to get the ball to Trossot or whoever.

26:24He's not afraid to get fouled as well when he got the ball. Winning fouls is a skill in football and he's very good at sort of knowing it's coming and winning it, which I think helps. Zubimendi tends to sort of avoid that a little bit more. But to your point about the swagger, I think, yes, Dechton Rice was outstanding. Yes, it was probably Gokker as his best game. But for me, the key players in some ways were Ben White and Trossard because both of them have been in pretty bad form the last few months. Trossard in particular in the autumn was really good. And he was back to that level. And Ben White has really struggled for form.

26:57But I think having Saka back, they've got such a good understanding. There were a couple of passes he played that were brilliant. That really took me by surprise watching the game. how just changing one individual can the knock-on effect it has and clearly that telepathic understanding that Saka and Ben White have Ben White struggles to replicate with Maduweke even though they're both right wingers left-footed they play the game in a very very different way Maduweke probably this is just sort of me guessing probably takes more touches on the ball delays things a little bit more whereas it feels like Saka wants to play those quick sharp one twos with Ben White and Ben White sort of fries off doing that and there are a couple of times sometimes Saka got in behind from moves like that and when those things are coming off in possession it probably just is a nice little reminder that oh I can do this and that gives you a little bit more confidence defending the other way as well but that was Ben White's probably best performance of the season quite comfortably whereas in the last especially the Southampton game he really struggled and you're thinking if Arsenal have to finish the season with Ben White instead of then that's going to impact them but Tuesday night he was really good.

28:05Mark Carey: It's not that long ago that people were saying similar things about Victor Jokeres but the last what three games I think have all been Jokeres' best game so far for Arsenal. How was he on Tuesday and what's the difference been? He did a lot of off the ball stuff I thought was brilliant on Tuesday. It was a pretty thankless task but what he seems to have added and I don't know how oh, you can add this three quarters away through a season. But it's a sort of physicality to battle for the ball. Like he must have, I reckon he won sort of 80 % of his aerials in that game. And every time the ball came up to him, he either held it up and laid it off or won a foul.

28:41And he was just not doing that earlier in the season. Now, yes, this was a Spanish team rather than another Premier League team, but it made such a difference because it allowed people like Eze and Trossard and Saka to sort of get nearer to him. And it was very noticeable. And it was also noticeable how the fan base has really sort of swung behind him after sort of, I think, the start of the season excited about a new striker. Sort of sceptical, understandably, around Christmas time. And then, you know, now sort of, you know, it's cliche, but almost feels like a new signing. Like a new signing.

29:13Nice.

29:14Mark Carey: As for Atletico, they had a big chance to equalise through Alexander Sorlos. But they finished the game, as is fashionable, angry at the refereeing. great quote from the Madrid mayor Jose Luis Martinez when I saw the draw I thought we'd get Arsenal but I was wrong we played against UEFA I'm trying to think of any contentious decisions maybe the Gabriel Simeone which I sort of looked a little bit like a penalty I don't think there's quite I also think in football too often people forget Gabriel was what six three and Simeone's tiny so it's there's a reasonable element of i'm using my physical superiority here to push you off the ball it doesn't necessarily mean it's a foul but he's on the ball and he gets pushed off it before he can take he can finish properly which i think if it happens in the box constitutes a penalty but i might be wrong i think i don't think it's enough of a foul okay personally neither did the referee did the referee look scared on tuesday no he looked quite authoritative good um although he didn't seem to mind that simeone senior spent most of the game on the pitch i was where i was was quite nearly away dug out and he's just a yard on the pitch for half a game i mean fair play his heat must be extraordinary although to be fair michael i said did you know did cover some yards as well it was well they both got booked at the end didn't they yeah kepper got booked for kicking the ball onto the pitch at the end as well the little dark arts you've seen the

30:47Duncan Alexander: one that's been doing the rounds on social with um michael i tested doing a bit of a step over as the ball's coming directly towards him into the to the dugout he looks as though he's trying to get the ball back into play quickly just does a quick step over then goes to collect the ball knowing full well that he's wasting about 25 seconds but it's it's good the way what we should say before we move on is that the way the entire arsenal squad and coaching staff celebrated that game is also significant of course the fans were going to be excited but certainly for um so there's like a clip of Saka on I think CBS afterwards and he's being asked who do you want to play in the final and he sort of says I could give you a media trained answer but if you think about it you'll know who it is certainly a little bit more personality than we've seen from a lot of this Arsenal squad and just the way they see I think so yeah that's certainly what I'm assuming Why is that an

31:33Mark Carey: obvious answer? Because they lost to them in the semi-final last year and I also wondered if it's a sort of poetic because Arsenal lost the 2006 Champions League final in Paris maybe that's another element of it but yeah all the players dancing and everything fought and obviously they were criticized for over celebrating by some people I also understand that but it was interesting to see that all of the pressure over the last few weeks they really just enjoyed yeah the moment and I think this title race has clearly weighed on them at times and they needed that moment of we've got a step closer to a big big goal before we move on as you say Jay we should also salute Antoine Griezmann who didn't get the performance that he wanted or Atletico wanted in this game and thus exits the Champions League.

32:20Mark Carey: He'll be off to, he's got a few more games in La Liga and then he's off to Orlando City. There's a lovely piece from James Horncastle on The Athletic, which concludes with this, careers do not go on forever. So if there is a player out there who makes you remember why you watch football, try to watch each of their games as if it is the last because the last game sneaks up on you. Oof! And it did. this Griezmann what games he's given us hey anyway out go Atletico Arsenal head off eventually to Budapest will they arrive as Premier League champions well let's get on to what awaits this weekend to that end next

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34:30That's G-A-B-B dot com forward slash get Gab. Gab, tech in steps, independence for them, peace of mind for parents. This is Robert Mason, The Athletic Football Show. The men's warehouse is here to make you look and feel good no matter the occasion. From formal to casual, dressed down to dressed up, their in-store experts will help you find the right outfit for that thing you got on the calendar. And their on-site tailors will make sure the fit is perfect for your body. suits, tuxes, sport coats, jeans, shorts, chinos, t-shirts, polos, loafers, sneakers, sandals, underwear get ready to look and feel good for anything from head to toe by visiting Men's Warehouse today Men's Warehouse, love the way you look

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35:34Mark Carey: Premier League, two games played since our last show and they feel significant. On Monday, Nottingham Forest went to Stamford Bridge and beat Chelsea 3-1. Reducing, quite possibly, the relegation battle to just two teams, Spurs and West Ham. And then on Monday evening, it was Everton Man City. Man City going a goal up. Everton then sparking a Mancunian collapse in the second half, taking a 3-1 lead before eventually Jeremy Doku pulled it back to 3-3, right at the death. Where does that leave everything and what awaits this weekend? Man City, now five points behind with a game in hand, will be hosting Brentford at 5.30 on Saturday.

36:14Mark Carey: Then, Sunday afternoon, they'll be sat round a telly for Arsenal at West Ham. The Hammers, of course, as mentioned, involved in that race to avoid 18th place. They are one point behind Spurs, who will be hosting Leeds on Monday evening. The other fixtures this weekend, since we're here. Chelsea will be taking their clown car antics to Anfield to face Liverpool. That's Saturday lunchtime. 3 o 'clock on Saturday. Fulham take on Bournemouth. Sunderland are up against Man United in the Brighton Wars. There are three games at 2 o 'clock on Sunday. Forest Newcastle and Palace Everton Forest and Palace both in action this evening as we record in European ties as are Villa of course who will be against Forest at Villa Park huge game that in the Europa League anyway Villa on Sunday will be visiting Burnley let's start though with the title race Man City taking on Brentford Saturday at 5.30 first of all what happened at the Hill Dickinson?

37:20Mark Carey: They were 1-0 up and cruising at the end of the first half. And then Mark Gay? Yeah. Mark Gay did a Stevie G in a way. I mean, you know, in the same city. Yeah. Everton are quite weird. Remember they drew four at Old Trafford in the season where City won their first Premier League title. They're kind of good late season catalysts for drama. But yeah, I don't think anyone saw that coming at halftime. City had utterly dominated the first half, had gone ahead with a brilliant finish from Jamie Dock who should have been more ahead. But then as soon as Everton got one, it just completely turned. Heads went, no?

37:57Yeah. And that's the thing. I think people have talked, Jamie, people have talked a lot about Arsenal's mentality this season and the pressure. But we kind of give City a pass a lot of the time as this kind of title trophy winning machine that just picks off results. But they're not. And you could see that on Monday night. Like they look, I mean, particularly when Everton went 3-1 up, they look completely shell-shocked. And if they hadn't pulled one back immediately, I think it could have been, I think they would have lost the game.

38:23Mark Carey: What was more important or what will prove more important? Jeremy Dock, who's brilliant, 97th minute equaliser or the fact that they already shipped three goals at that point. So a point gained or two lost? Two lost. Definitely, because look at the way Man City celebrated beating Arsenal at the Etihad. the way that you know i think we were joking about before we started recording the uh city fam with a bottle of arsenal tears and you know harland who's pitching yeah there is yeah the we simply don't know you know harland strutting around in front of the cameras they had a massive advantage but i i did think there's still a long way to to go in this league and i think city's longest winning streak in the premier league this season is six games and arsenal is five and I think Arsenal might have done it twice.

39:14So no one has actually built up a significant winning streak which we've seen in previous Premier League seasons. It's normal Premier League six and my teams drop points. Exactly. But in the last few years you've had Liverpool, Man City, go on these really intimidating double digit figures around. That's not the case this year so there was always going to be a chance that they were going to drop points but I think to be one nil up and in control and then to allow the momentum to shift that way is definitely two points drop.

39:42Duncan Alexander: I think to suggest that Man City were going to even blow Everton away would have been naive as well because they played Burnley not long before. And if you watch that game, it wasn't all that convincing either. I know that Burnley had to sit in, but it was quite a dull game. And there was even a couple of opportunities towards the end where Burnley were like, well, we may as well go for it. We've got nothing riding on it. But they almost, there was a couple of like half opportunities where you thought, if you just drop points there as well. So it's also, I think we think that Man City, when they win, they're going to be dominant and they're going to win threes and fours, which they have done years gone by.

40:12Duncan Alexander: But there's been a few occasions this season where they haven't done that either. And then it obviously came back to the top scorers in the Premier League, fine. But they've got 69 goals with four games to go. I mean, they've multiple times got over 100 goals. Yeah, yeah.

40:24Mark Carey: Will this Saturday be another of those occasions that you reference? They are going to be at home to Brentford, who have some form at the Etihad. Che, did you not witness in the 22-23 season? I did. When City did the treble. the only team to win at the 88 were the only visiting team the mighty brentford yeah no no it was a fun day because um it was just before it was the last game before the break for the world cup okay and it was a couple of days after um ivan tony had been left out of the england squad and i don't think he'd been officially charged yet but it was around the time the rumors had come out about you know this alleged gambling activity that he'd done and then he scores these two great goals that Brentford crafted in a really clever way and sort of sent out a message to Gareth Southgate as if to say I can't believe you've left me out of the World Cup squad but it was a incredible performance and really Brentford should have scored more that day I think if you'd asked me a week ago I wouldn't have had much confidence in Brentford winning because they I think drawn six games in a row they lost to Man United but beating West time has hopefully given them a bit more um energy and i do think that brentford the entire time they've been in the premier league there's just something about playing big six teams that they get up for whereas when they're expected to play at home dominate teams around them in the table okay that's when they tend to catch you off guard and under the way teams set up against them i think it's sometimes because if you look at that brentford team at the moment you've got tiago who's fantastic at his big burly striker holding the ball up.

41:59Then you've got Shada and Dango Wattara either side have been running in behind. And I do think that suits them. They've got some very good defenders who don't mind sort of sitting deep so they can hurt teams less so set pieces this year. They're not nearly as good from set pieces as they used to be. But certainly on the counter-attack they're still really effective on the threat. Whereas I think when they're asked to control games they're not quite as good. And it's the shootout for the Golden Boot as well. Haaland VT Argo. So three goals between them currently. Sorry, I should say, Brentford know they're in a fantastic position to qualify for Europe for the first time in their history.

42:37And as I said, results over the last couple of months have sort of grinded that momentum down to a halt, beating West Ham, sort of giving them a little bit more impetus. Their final game is at Anfield. Salah's last game, Robertson's last game. You don't really want to be going into that game thinking we need to win here to keep our European dreams alive. I'd say that right now they're probably thinking the pressure's not on us when we go to Man City we've beaten them before they're coming off the back of a free all draw against Everton can we sort of catch them off guard I know I'm really talking it up here but they're probably not going to win Excellent

43:10Mark Carey: Man City have Brentford they've got a bit of fixture congestion Brentford this Saturday then Crystal Palace then Chelsea in the FA Cup final then Bournemouth away and then Villa at home Arsenal are going to be at West Ham on Sunday then home to Burnley then a trip to a Crystal Palace side who may well have a conference league final just a few days later and of course Arsenal themselves will have a European fixture of their own to look forward to a few days after that it begins that run for Arsenal with West Ham is this their last big test

43:44Duncan Alexander: and how big a test will it be I think it probably is I mean they'll say every game is a final etc but I think that this is probably going to be the trickiest one because West Ham have got so much riding themselves on on the in the remaining games and i think west ham despite losing was a three nil against brentford they played pretty well if you watch the game back they played pretty well and were quite unlucky to to sort of lose by that much um they have kind of really honed under nuna espirito santo try to say that quickly um a really sort of strong counter-jacking play that we know that he's sort of famed for and that could be a real threat against arsenal where they'll sit in for long periods for straight arsenal which has been a theme of arsenal season as well where there's been almost a bit of anxiety in the stadium when they've not been able to make the breakthrough and then maybe circle punch them i think they did do that if not last season than a couple of seasons ago west ham i think they've beaten last a couple of times i remember there was a game in yeah the emirates they beat it was it december yeah oh is it at home they lost 5-2

44:43Mark Carey: to arsenal last season and 6-0 to them right the season before they're currently on a run of three wins in their last 10 matches so although their form has picked up it hasn't picked up enough to get them out of the bottom three and do they actually have to win this match given the fact that they are a point behind Spurs and have a significantly worse goal difference than Tottenham Hotspur well the slight firstly I just want to point out we're in a strange situation where two years on from Arsenal fans cheering Spurs against Man City Spurs fans are cheering Arsenal on against West Ham um no doubt the mood around Spurs has transformed over the last two weeks because they've won back-to-back games right and I do think some people have got a little bit carried away is almost thinking, oh, Spurs are sort of sorted now.

45:26But their three final games, two are at home and one is against Chelsea. Now they've got an awful record at Stamford Bridge. I know Chelsea are in free four at the moment, but Spurs have won there once in 36 years. And that was in 2018 under Pochettino when they had Dele Alli, Kane and Sonnell scored. Now they've not won at home since December the 6th when they beat Brentford 2-0. They've got the joint worst home record in the league this season with Burnley 11 points.

45:51Mark Carey: so really but i think the third best away records yeah yeah um so they've got leads at home this weekend then at chelsea and then they finish off at home to everton yeah so they basically need to break their curse at home i think to give themselves the best chance of staying in the division deserve he came in and after he got his first point against brighton i think it was he said we could win all our last five games and they you know two down three to go essentially so

46:18Duncan Alexander: you can understand the optimism yeah i think when you say about i'm not keen on historical records of like the stanford bridge one where it's like 36 seasons ask any spurs fan they're like we there's no way like chelsea will just turn up the one game but i can i get what you mean when it's when it's just players on the pitch like and it's just a straight sort of shooter in that game i'm not as keen on on this sort of the historical thing because what happened in 1997 doesn't matter when you're trying to you're in a completely different circumstance That's basically I don't believe in a curse. I do think they look so much better.

46:51Duncan Alexander: If we're going to talk about Spurs, I do think they look so much better in the past couple of games. The game against Aston Villa, I thought that they were far more energetic. They were pressing so well. They were setting traps really well. Obviously that led to, it wasn't the goal, it led to a chance for Spurs. And I think they're probably, when they need to be the protagonists a little bit more, maybe they need to step up a little bit there in possession. but I think when it's a Chelsea who are just so devoid of confidence, if they play in a similar way and just press really high, this is obviously a couple of weeks away, that I do think that could be possible.

47:23Duncan Alexander: You know, last weekend was the 10-year anniversary of Battle of the Bridge. So in very similar circumstances, a Chelsea team out of form suddenly breaking Spurs' hearts. If we look at it sort of logically, Spurs won 37 points. Let's say they get four points from the last three game so winning a draw that takes them to 41 okay that was where some gold is much worse so they're going to need 42 right 36 so that's two wins from from three okay so they've got arsenal at home

47:54Mark Carey: this weekend then they're at newcastle then they're home to lead so essentially you'd be looking at the last two games as the as the game to win yeah and i think i think west ham can go to newcastle and win and i think if it comes down to the last day i think it'll come down to the last basically and that's fun for people who aren't heavily invested in those two teams but it's stressful for me but i'm glad you'll enjoy yeah i'll enjoy it jay um i'll message you um but yeah i think the fact that you know lees will relish taking part in that as well i'm sure um so yeah it's um exciting it is exciting okay 4 30 on sunday arsenal will be at west ham and again that is key at both ends of the table and of course straight after that we'll have our live recording of we're always live when we record it, but we'll live stream the recording of our weekend roundup.

48:43Mark Carey: So join us on YouTube if you fancy. Next up today, let's go on to the other things awaiting this weekend in the Premier League and beyond.

48:56Okay, class, let's begin.

48:58Mark Carey: Psst, love your boots. I just sold a pair like that on eBay. Oh, really? Yeah, it took like two seconds to list and they sold almost immediately. I've been selling everything lately. Some chunky boots, a faux fur coat I never wore, and a vintage chair that was more of an expensive clothing rack. You know, I actually bought these on eBay. Wait, are you, Kitty, sell stuff from Brooklyn? Okay, quiet, please. Find what you love, sell what you don't. eBay. Things people love. This is Robert Mace from The Athletic Football Show. The Men's Warehouse is here to make you look and feel good no matter the occasion.

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51:06You're listening to the Totally Football Show now with you four times a week. Keep up to date with us on Insta and enjoy us in glorious Technicolor on YouTube at the Totally Show.

51:22Mark Carey: Everton Man City wasn't the only massive game on Monday because up north, Mark, in the Scottish Premiership, title rivals Hearts and Rangers faced off at Tynecastle. There was a huge big game atmosphere.

51:43Believe it or not, I actually watched the second half of this game with my girlfriend. I actually still can't believe I pulled that off. Brilliant. It was sort of by accident. Interesting choice of phrase. Well, she just has no interest in football. So of all games to sort of end up watching with me, it was like, well...

51:58Mark Carey: I'm not sure how much your mind was on the football. My work watch the second half, I was getting quite into the... oh, this is, because I was explaining how long it was since. So Rangers had a halftime lead when you guys tuned in. Yes. Yeah. And then what happened? And then, so Hearts had generated, I think, 0.1 XG in the first half. So we're just completely not at the races. And then they turned it around. And the second goal in particular from Lawrence Shanklin, who's the captain, just sort of cross into the box. He's probably about 12 yards out, just smashes it past the keeper. and the Hearts fans just go wild.

52:33Yeah, I think we all want, as neutrals, Hearts to win right, just to break that duopoly that's been going on for, I think, 42 years. So it will be a fantastic story. And there were lots of shots of Tony Bloom celebrating in the stands and stuff. So yeah, I'm just more invested in Scottish football this season than I thought I would be.

52:52Duncan Alexander: This year could really be a win for the nerds in that regard. So you've got Brentford, Bournemouth and Brighton who are all pushing for Europe. you've got hearts obviously led by as you say um tony bloom's got a share in the club if all of those things happen i don't think all three maybe maybe all three actually could be in europe of the um the premier league sites of bournemouth brentford and brighton all led by really good strategic recruitment led by data and just really good planning from in the long term and it's it's a message i think to your chelsea's of this world that actually having this sort of due process is beneficial.

53:26Duncan Alexander: But none of them have got United DNA marks. I don't really know that one looked true in the Man United way.

53:31Mark Carey: At half time, the top three Hearts, Celtic and Rangers were separated by just one point. But following the 2-1 victory, Rangers are now seven points adrift of Hearts who are themselves three points clear of Celtic and with a plus five advantage on goal difference. However, more twists are likely in store in the greatest Scottish title race since I started paying attention. Three games to go Celtic and Hearts meet at Celtic Park on the final day of the season woof that's a week on Saturday before that Celtic have Rangers which they do kind of every week but anyway yeah yeah that's big and Hearts are aware at Motherwell and Jordan Campbell wrote a really good piece on Athletic a couple of weeks ago about Motherwell and normally again he might go Motherwell alright fine but they've been playing a very advanced brand of football so it's all happening in Scotland it really is there you go back regrettably to the Premier League and that early game on Monday we mentioned Forrest going to Stamford Bridge and taking Chelsea apart 3-1 praise for Forrest but Chelsea what what's going on there Callum McFarlane now interim boss describing the first 15 minutes as unacceptable and I think a lot of Chelsea fans would feel that about a broader spectrum of the game I think if

54:50Duncan Alexander: you look at every player on paper you say that they all have really good quality I think it's clear that it's not anything to do with their sort of footballing ability it's all the other stuff sort of swirling around them just given up maybe yeah I mean Chelsea've got previous for that not that I believe too much in historical things but I do think there is a the degree to which that I'm sure as sort of Mark's alluded to when you've just got not necessarily a lack of a plan but a poor plan it's hard to stay invested because they bounce between Maresca, Rosinia, McFarlane's back in temporary charge for the second time this season you know I was reading a piece from our colleague Liam Toomey the other day who said Blueco have been in charge for four years now like the the sort of grace period where you're allowed to trip over hurdles and make mistakes and learn from them that's that's long gone you know you spent a ridiculous amount of money on this squad you need to get Champions League football that's just completely drifting and slipping from your grasp you've got players like Garnaccio you spent a lot of money on who aren't getting in the team it's just a mess but it's happened over a prolonged period of time where they've consistently made bad mistakes so I'm sure they'll go again in the summer and wheel and deal and get rid of more players and sign some new players but until they actually commit to a good long-term strategy then you can sort of just see this continuing forever and it looks as if the Club World Cup last year was sort of the exception to the rule.

56:18Mark Carey: Yeah, curious that. Currently 10 points off the top five. They've had six Premier League defeats in a row. They did finally score a goal, ending a 566-minute goal drought against Forest Reserves, effectively, because Vitor Pereira had made, I think, eight changes to the starting line-up with the Europa League semi-final coming up tonight. Was there a point in the season, like October, November, where people were saying it was like Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal in the title race. I don't think anything like that was said in this pod. I mean, you can normally put your clocks back about the time of Chelsea in the title race.

56:55You know it's about time. Autumn leaves are falling. But yeah, it's not good.

56:59Mark Carey: What about Forest though? Six points clear now of the bottom three. Is that them safe? Yeah, I think so. They've been magnificent. I mean, again, Vita Pereira has done an amazing job. But then you do look, he kind of did that at Wolves last season, went to the pubs, and then didn't work as well this season. But I think the difference is, the Forest squad is really, really good. I think Monday demonstrated that. They can change that many players, go to Chelsea and win. But I just don't want to see Morgan Gibbs-White's forehead again. That was horrible. And, I mean, as far as we know, he's trying to, planning to play in the Villa game tonight, which is super i mean that is you know that's professionalism um is it safe though well those

57:42Duncan Alexander: stitches certainly look robust yeah that way with forest as well i think because the final games i was just looking at it they've got newcastle who aren't in the best form but you get what i mean uh manchester united and bournemouth who are obviously in great form they almost needed to get that those two wins against sunderland and chelsea and at the time or you know thinking about it a few months ago you thought okay they've got to go to chelsea that's going to be a tough game obviously the context with which it was played meant that it was comparably easier but i think that they needed to get those points in the bag obviously then got the second leg um this evening right and you don't necessarily need to to go and get victories in their remaining three games i think they've done actually all things told quite well in the way that they've managed the season they could be in a europa league final and comfortably safe going into the last day it's rare that a player changes the team as much as chris wood seems to for forest i mean he's been out most of the season they've really struggled they've wasted chances they've just looked sluggish he comes back and suddenly everyone looks like a wild beater and 12 goals in the

58:40Mark Carey: three matches since he returned there you go they're at home to Newcastle on Sunday if they win they'll go above the magpies and the table on a related note Sasu Hainu writing and saying has this Premier League been statistically the most even league ever feels like it 97 is still the club. But it is very much like that. And as I've been trying to say many weeks, this is what people wanted for a long time. And this is what it looks like. Teams drop points, teams lower down, go on good runs. I mean, looking at Forrest, they're only six points behind Chelsea, which is

59:15Duncan Alexander: extraordinary. And with Newcastle, they're only three points away from ninth. A lot of numbers out there. And they're 13th at the moment. All you need is just a victory and a couple of teams to lose. Is this three or four good for the league our league long term that we sort of this season at least we've reverted away from teams just racking up 90 plus points totals etc because there'll be a generation who's sort of grown up with that thinking that's yeah and it's not healthy i don't think and it also makes the the product less good i mean who wants to i mean i can remember the the late 2000s when the big four did it finishes the top four for like three or four seasons in a row and it most of the games were rubber.

59:57Mark Carey: I think having a league as balanced as this and at the same time having one side in the Champions League final is a pretty good indication of health of the league. Speaking of health and lack of it, Chelsea this weekend are going to be at Liverpool. If they lose that game, that will equal the worst run of defeats in their history, which came back in 1952, seven straight losses. For Liverpool... Mark, do you respect that in 1952?

1:00:27Duncan Alexander: I'll allow it. I'll allow it.

1:00:30Mark Carey: Yeah, Liverpool, who were top last season. Chelsea were fourth. They're currently sitting fourth and ninth, these two teams. Yeah, interesting game. That Saturday lunchtime.

1:00:42Duncan Alexander: You'd argue that Chelsea's the perfect opponent for Liverpool when they're still kind of going back and forth with convincing whether they're in good form or not. However, you thought at the time that Spurs, under Igor Tudor was the perfect opponent for them a good few weeks ago and then Spurs got a draw and Liverpool were quite flat in that as well so you think actually would Chelsea maybe kind of know their place a little bit some poor form some like low confidence um that could

1:01:08Mark Carey: potentially easily be a draw for Liverpool yeah I think Chelsea and Liverpool both feel a little bit like teams where the players are not entirely convinced that the man in charge is going to be in charge that much longer and there's a bit of limbo there possibly not I don't know we'll see this weekend that's the lunchtime game on saturday also this weekend villa are at burnley well villa produced a thriller against michael jackson oh that's great oh uh if the season started eight games ago villa would be third from bottom burnley would be last you know the other team who'd be in the bottom three it's chelsea it's chelsea yeah yeah but anyway yeah this is the in kind of eight games worth of form this is the third worst against the worst so we'll see how that one goes if Villa in somehow in some way uh messed this up they could be looking nervously over their shoulders come Monday because Bournemouth are six points behind them chasing that top five spot and Bournemouth are away at Fulham Bournemouth 15 games unbeaten at present so yeah that's the

1:02:12Duncan Alexander: longest record in the top five European leagues not just the primary top five European leagues which is just so so impressive i don't think that well i know that they're not always um been victories there's been quite a few draws in there but still they've um they've really done well and so i was looking at this um recently and there's only one occasion i believe in uh premier league history manchester united in the 2016-17 season um with 18 games that a team has been unbeaten for longer when not in the premier league top five so you manchester cities of this world have gone longer unbeaten. But for a team like that, it's rare that it happens.

1:02:48Mark Carey: Excellent. Crystal Palace are up against Everton Sunday at two. Palace who could be in the Conference League final. By the time you hear this, they're 3-1 up against Shakhtar ahead of Thursday night's return leg. Palace though, Everton are one of their bogey teams. They have only won one of the last 22 meetings with the Toffees, Mark. Brighton are up against Wolves. and Sunderland face Man United Saturday at three United who last weekend qualified for the Champions League Sunderland still in with a shout of Europe I should mention actually Sunday we were discussing Man United's performance and we talked about whether Michael Carrick should get the job what's the difference between this and the Solskjaer situation Solskjaer situation Lewis Constable writing in on our YouTube and saying please please please stop referring to oligarne solskjaer as though that was a bad appointment our clueless owners bought ronaldo and it completely screwed him we were good we finished second should have won europa we were on an upward trajectory best footy since fergie and various other people chime in on that very point it's true uh solskjaer deserves credit and carrick i'm not sure where we feel uh his future

1:04:05Duncan Alexander: lies but yeah i think there's the carrick element but also someone like steve holland behind him as the person who's doing far more of the coaching. It is a bit more akin to the way that Stralix Ferguson did it with different coaches who would be the one to take stuff on the training ground a little bit more. And then there's more of the ambassadorial role from the manager themselves. I don't want to say that this is Manchester United we're talking about. However, it does feel like you kind of need a bit more of an ambassadorial role and someone who can speak to the media. Yeah, this one isn't one for the nerds.

1:04:35Duncan Alexander: Not one for the nerds. I don't feel like it is. I think one of the good things Carrick has done, which is maybe boring for our jobs is that he doesn't really say anything that controversial and quietens what feels like never-ending noise about Manchester United at times whereas with Amarin he was constantly giving us headlines about hating his job and you know never changing his ideals and that type of stuff just feeding the sort of frenzy whereas it feels like Carrick has been apart from sort of quite criticizing a couple of refereeing decisions with firmer than you would normally do. Right. I think he's sort of avoided saying anything that causes a commotion but then United have played pretty well under him so it'll also be interesting to see if things suddenly went badly how he'd handle that.

1:05:24Duncan Alexander: I do think it's let's not kid ourselves I don't think United are the real deal or they've suddenly I know that I think under Carrick no team's got more points than them but I still think there's a lot of weaknesses and a lot of things that with a bit of time any opposition analyst and they already are working out a way to unlock them. Their midfield was pretty much empty. But with a bit of time, what could Carrick do? There is a subset of United fans who are kind of Amarim loyalists at the moment and kind of pointing out that Carrick's numbers, United are overperforming quite a lot and they were underperforming.

1:05:54Now, there's other factors that go into that and I think possibly it was time. Is there really a group of diehard Amarim loyalists still out there in the jungle? There is. they're brave because they get quite a lot of abuse from fellow or from non-believers. But yeah, I mean, we see this every season. The Dark Lord. Yeah. He who must not be named. Well, Darth Maul came back, apparently. Yeah, so maybe. Not a Grimsby, but yeah.

1:06:22Mark Carey: Anyway, Sunderland Man United sat at three, which is a fixture segue ahoy, perhaps best remembered for Eric Cantona scoring one of his most celebrated goals in the Premier League and then perhaps producing perhaps the most, the definitive Cantona celebration. We're going to be talking about Eric Cantona this afternoon, Duncan, for a Totally Extra that's going to be out on Saturday. I'm looking forward to that because he's a legend, but I missed the formative icon. There you go. And other things too. Very good. just um want to ask Mark something uh obviously Burnley Aston Villa was a fixture in 1888-89 obviously Burnley won 4-0 do you think that will have any bearing on you uh

1:07:09Duncan Alexander: I mean it'll be in their heads from kickoff it'll be in the back of their minds so you just you just can't write that off wouldn't it be funny if

1:07:16Mark Carey: hmm excellent well lots to look forward to this weekend and Sunday evening post West Ham Arsenal we'll get together to share our thoughts on all of that. For now, though, that wraps it up for this Totally Football Show. So many, many thanks to Jay, to Duncan, to Mark, producers Jake, Charlie and Xavi. And to you, listener. Do hope you have a good weekend and we'll catch up with you soon on the Totally Football Show.

1:07:50You've been listening to the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network. For other great podcasts just like this one, including The Athletic FC and our dedicated club podcasts, search for The Athletic in all the usual places. We're also at The Totally Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

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