Can Chelsea make it three FA Cup final defeats in a row for City?

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1:46The Athletic FC.

2:17Totally Football Show. Plus, Heartstopper, we relive Wednesday's last-minute drama in Scotland and look ahead to the weekend's climax north of the border. All that and much, much more in this Totally Football Show. Thursday the 14th of May, it's a big hello to you from the Totally Football Show, which today welcomes back Natalie Jedra. Hey, Jimbo. Of Sky Sports. Yes. How are you, Natalie? I'm good, I'm good. Busy end of the season, right? Busy doing what? Yeah, a lot of games, a lot of games. Games, yes. shoots, interviews. It's been an exciting end of the season. Last week I spoke to Ryan Shirky, but I've been working on a documentary with Sky about Brazilians in the Premier League.

2:58Nice. So it's been fun. Nice. Okay. Well, maybe we can hear a little bit more about that later on, but there's plenty to talk about. A, Duncan Alexander. Lots. So much that Scottish football's become super interesting. Yeah. I was double screening it last night. You were watching the Celtic game. The Celtic game mainly, but then also, you know, keeping an eye at Tyne Castle, as you do. Yeah. And yeah, it was flabbergasting what happened at the end. We'll talk more about that later on, because Phil Hay will be joining us ahead of what's going to be the decisive weekend in the greatest title race possibly Scotland's ever seen.

3:37I don't know. We'll chat with Phil. Charlie O 'Cosher, football's so good, you come back from Rome to see it. exactly yeah swap Rome for turning over to the Celtic game in the 94th minute which was a really good decision excellent you've been at the Italian Open I should explain yes tennis yeah which is fine but it's not it's not this week in football it's not the 94th minute of of Celtic or the 90 whatever minute it was for Arsenal West Ham last weekend which you witnessed in a yes in the media room in Rome. Right. At the Foro Italico. At the Foro Italico. Yeah. Just next to the Stadio Olimpico.

4:13No, it was. And what was the reaction from the Italian journalists? The Italian, well, it was one of those where everyone was getting increasingly interested in what was happening because I think they could sense that a number of the British reporters were kind of melting down. And so from a kind of like anthropological perspective, I mean, maybe they're observing us more than they were necessarily the football. But everyone was sort of gathering around laptop screens to watch. It's exciting the week that Attenborough turned 100, that they're doing that. Exactly, yeah. But yeah, to sort of see what Darren England would decide.

4:45It was quite a moment in Rome. Yeah. Well, everything's still to be... In the eternal city. Exactly. Well, so much stuff still to be decided. There's also the Spygate row, which has deepened dramatically in the last few days. And the Intertotally, which gets underway this week. We'll have a very special episode of the Totally Football Show on Saturday featuring all the quarterfinals. Wow. Like the 1990 FA Cup semifinals when they put them on the same day. Is that right? Pretty similar. Charlie and Duncan are both involved in the quarterfinals. How do they get on? Find out on Saturday. Shall we begin with the world's longest running cup competition which has its main event on Saturday the venerable FA Cup the final which sees Manchester City taking on Chelsea at 3 o 'clock This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson part of the Athletic FC podcast network Charlie, what are your plans for Saturday?

5:47Up at 9, telly on I think I will be at a sick birthday party for some of that if not all, so I may not be able to indulge in all the build-up, all the game. But I'm sure people have their phones out. Yeah, you'll have it recorded anyway. Yeah, exactly. So, well, this game, which is a sizable one, Man City, perhaps heavy favourites, but then they were last season against Palace and they were the year before that against Ten Hag's Man United. So, Natalie, what can we even begin to predict for this? Yeah, Man City heavy favourites because of Chelsea's recent run, But there were positive signs on the weekend on their point against Liverpool.

6:33And, well, if you want to look at Chelsea's perspective, I think there are a few good news with Levi Coyle. I think the main one playing 90 minutes. And then Colin McFarlane, he confirmed that he can start on the weekend, despite the fact that he just came back from a very, very long injury. And it looks like that really lifted Chelsea. and not only because of his passing and the way him and Fofana, they just get along so well on the pitch, but also his leadership. And it just gave Chelsea fans a real lift. There is the issue of a lot of wingers injured, but there is the possibility as well of Garnaccio and Pedro Neto coming back.

7:18We need to wait. They would be assessed. Either way, Mark Cucurella did really well on the weekend. And so there are positive things for Chelsea fans to hang on to. But of course, Man City are our big favourites. They've never faced Man City in an FA Cup final of Chelsea. They have met in League Cup final and famously in a Champions League final, which Chelsea won, again, rather against the odds or at least predictions. They haven't beaten City since that occasion at the Dragaard 13 games ago. two meetings this season, which they didn't win either. They did take a point, though, under the same interim manager they've got right now, Callum McFarlane, in what was, I think, his first game in kind of interim charge.

8:04Yeah. Late Enzo Fernandes equaliser. Well, so, is that significant? I mean, City really should have won that game. I mean, I think, yeah, Nathalie's offered the reasons why there is some hope. I mean, I think it's all that if they play a three at the back again, I feel like that is quite a good way, as a sort of shock therapy thing, to get you a result or two. It may not be sustainable, but in a game like this, where you're the underdogs in a cup final, I feel like Cucurella's the kind of player who I can imagine having a really big cup final. He's that sort of character. I think he'll suit that position quite well.

8:43Yeah, I mean... He's got a good main, like the horse in 1923. Which should really help. yeah I mean you can't say they've they don't have a chance I mean Palace did it last season against the odds obviously United the year before as well and that United team were pretty maligned they only scraped past Coventry to get to that final Chelsea themselves not long after Palace had beaten Man City went and beat Paris Saint-Germain when that seemed impossible so they can raise themselves for a big occasion on occasion but this this Duncan This is their last chance, really, to get something from this woe-begotten season.

9:22Oh, yeah. I mean, the season's fallen apart. I mean, they're such a strange team, aren't they, Chelsea? Because last season wasn't great, but they became world champions. And then this season, people were sort of saying they were in the title race in October because they were vaguely near the top. And narrator, they weren't in the title race. But they're not as bad as they have been the last month or so. and it's quite literally a cup final. It's a one-off game. It's quite weird. I know you said that this is the first time they've met in an FA Cup final. That's quite unusual, right? It is. It does, yeah.

9:54They've both reached many, many FA Cup final. Two most successful cup teams probably in the last two decades. This notion that they're not as bad as they have been, they've lost five of their last seven. So this is down to that point that they took at Liverpool and the fact that they scored an actual goal in the game before that. Basically, yes. Okay. No, basically, yes. They're scoring goals, are turning up to play matches. Most of them have got their own kit and shin pads. I mean, they really are on the way back, I think. Manchester City, meantime, were in action only last night, as we recall, this Wednesday evening.

10:25Helped on by Foden. Mamouche!

10:32Manchester City doing all they can to keep the squeeze on Arsenal. They kept their treble hopes alive with another 3-0 win. As we mentioned on Sunday, it is this season's most popular scoreline. Manchester City winning 3-0. This time it was against Crystal Palace. They also beat 3-0 away, didn't they? Did they now? Yeah. Did they? Slightly juggled side from Pep, featuring Phil Foden, who seized his opportunity to remind his manager of what he can bring to the team. He did, yeah. I mean, he set up the first two goals, but the first one was with a brilliant backheel for Semenyo. And up until that point, it had been a pretty flat start, really flat atmosphere.

11:16Obviously, all those changes didn't help. And I guess for City, the sucker punch of Arsenal's win on Sunday. So it felt all a bit flat and as if their minds were kind of on Wembley. But then the goal went in and from that moment, and that was such an individual moment of brilliance from Foden, that completely changed it. The best weighted back heel you'll ever see. It was. It was perfect. Was it assist of the season? Do you prefer the Ryan Cherky one? I do love that Cherky. The one at Chelsea, that disguise pass. Cherky also had a nice assist in this game for the third goal for Savinho. The build-up was amazing.

11:55Yes, yes. It was very Cherky, you know, with the ball glued to his feet and just carrying it on and dribbling and a really nice assist for the third goal. Pep was talking about the fact that they've been defeated in their last two FA Cup finals. This is their fourth straight appearance in the FA Cup final. And explaining that it was all the referee's fault. But drawing from that that he wants his players to learn the lesson that they can't rely on the officials who are fallible and that they essentially need to up their game to remove any kind of margin for error from officials. Because the still of the Henderson handling outside the area, it's a fairly major miss.

12:37It is extraordinary. That's from last season against Palace. I can't remember what happened against United. No, I don't remember the big controversy there. I don't know if that's me not remembering it or Pep slightly overstating it. Maybe it's just part of the... Part of the conspiracy. It is smart from him either way with everything that's happening with referees and VAR to bring it up now. Well, Pep is very experienced with cup finals. And Wembley, he just galvanizes his players to these finals. It's quite remarkable. And City, they managed to rest. Haaland, Doku and Scherke. They only had a few minutes against Crystal Palace.

13:20So these very key players will be fresh, will be more fresh. And if you look at the midfield, it's really important. It's really interesting because Jamie Redknapp was talking about it at Sky after the game. It's a very small midfield with Ait Nuri, Bernardo Silva and Phil Foden. And in an era of really physical midfielders, and especially in these holding positions, it's very refreshing to see players who are just, you know, basically really well positioned with a great reading of the game, just performing really well and showing a different way to, you know, be a very efficient midfield. And yeah.

14:03I'm interested with that. If Rodri is still out next week, whether he would be so bold against Bournemouth away, because that feels like a much tougher game to be playing that kind of lightweight and also very progressive attack-minded midfield. Bournemouth away on Tuesday. And when Pep was resting players, Was he arresting them for this kick around against Chelsea or for the big match against Bournemouth? I wonder which is the biggest match for Man City this week. Raises his eyebrow. Duncan, what do you think? It's the FA Cup final, isn't it? I think so. I think they're going to assume that Arsenal will beat Burnley on Monday night.

14:40And, yeah, obviously then they could lose the title on Tuesday. But, yeah. I mean, I think it has to be Chelsea in the sense that they could beat Bournemouth and it still be in vain. Right. You know, it's obviously the fact that it's out of their hands. I mean, I did wonder last night whether they might, given once it went to 2-0, you could see their motivation sort of drain from Palace. I mean, like, if you're playing, I've said many times, I think the kind of obsession we have with teams are either fighting for their lives, ergo, they're really hard, or they're mid-table, ergo, they're really easy.

15:12I don't think it's quite that simple. But what I would say is if you are playing a team like Palace, if you can get a lead, then you'd hope that they might lose interest and not really fight. And there was a moment, it was still 2-0 and City sort of flooded men forward. Palace were on the break and rather than breaking they just sort of started passing it around to one another in a way that suggested they weren't that motivated. So with that in mind I did wonder whether City would really go for the jugular and take the goal difference thing out of the equation because that could be huge. And you felt they could have won that game 5 or 6 if they'd really gone for it.

15:43What's the goal difference now then? They've won ahead of Arsenal thanks to that late Savinho goal. They could have more or less taken that out of the equation. And Arsenal have Burnley on what, Monday night? They've got Burnley on Monday. But if it goes to goal difference, it's very hard to see a way in which Arsenal have the better goal difference because City would have to win two more games compared to Arsenal just winning one more game. But they're playing Burnley at home, aren't they? They're playing Burnley. But even if, say, they won 5-0, that would put them four ahead of City and City would have to win two games.

16:11I can well see them winning those by... 3-0. It's happened. Well, exactly. win a couple more 3-0s and that's plus 6 as Duncan will know more than anyone and 3-0 it's only Liverpool beat Newcastle 3-0 in 1974 it's only happened once since then FA Cup final 3-0 when was that Duncan? I'll give you a clue it wasn't held at Wembley oh I know United Millwall 2004 correct alright well is it going to be City rolling on or are Chelsea going to do a Wigan? against the Sky Blues. What's your predictions, everybody? Natalie? I don't see City losing this one, honestly. I think Chelsea will put up a fight because they have players that can do that.

16:59They have their Enzo Fernandes and their Cucurellas and their Levi Colwells. But ultimately, I think experience at Wembley also helps. and this is as much as City lost their last couple of cup finals. FA Cup finals. FA Cup finals, yeah. I think... But as well, even with that being the case, they won at Wembley literally two months ago to win the Carriam. So, you know, it depends whether those demons are Wembley specific or FA Cup specific. Among the Chelsea players who could, is Cole Palmer fit? Yes, he is. He is and he played well against Liverpool. So, yeah, another good sign. He played on the right wing.

17:44Against his former side, of course. Duncan, what's your feeling? Well, for balance, I'm going to say Chelsea are going to turn up. They're back. There's going to be some sort of controversy. Cole Palmer will do something. I think Charlie's point about Cucurella. I think this could go down as a Cucurella final. I literally said that yesterday. Did you know? I mean, yeah, I just... Cucurella final, TM. He's got that kind of main character energy. Wikipedia page. I still would say there's about a one in three chance of that happening. The sensible prediction, I think, is, as Nassie says, that City will just be too good.

18:24But I can see a world as well. If Chelsea can score first, I think they need to score first. I think if City score first, game over. If Chelsea can go ahead and have something to cling on to, then, yeah, I think it could get interesting. Wow. All right, 3 o 'clock Saturday afternoon. We find out it's a cup final. Anything can happen. Meanwhile, there's the Premier League, with Man City still in the title hunt and loads of other storylines to be resolved as well. Let's get on to Matchday 37 next.

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21:42This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli Kay and the very best football writers around.

21:57Premier League matchday 37, no games on Saturday this weekend because FA Cup final. Friday night, though, there is Aston Villa-Liverpool. What? That's early because Villa have got a Europa League final on Wednesday against Freiburg. They're from Germany. Neither Villa nor Liverpool are yet certain of their top five place yet, with Bournemouth breathing down their necks. Four points back with two games to go. What? And in terrific form. One of those two games, of course, is against Man City. Anyway, that's Friday night. On Sunday, six games, starting at lunchtime with Man United Forest. Natalie, you're going along to that one.

22:38Yes, I'll be at Old Trafford. Good. We'll hear why later on. Three o 'clock then, there's one, two, three, four matches. Brentford Palace, Leeds Brighton, Everton Sunderland, and Wolves against Cottages, the feudal crofters derby. That is an amazing quartet of sort of on-the-beach games. No, they're not. Because, look, Brighton and Everton and Brentford, but they're all in the hunt for these. I guess, yeah. With the Champions League places going down to 11th or 12th in the Premier League table, it's so much to play for. I mean, I was thinking that when you were talking about the Villa Liverpool, if there was only top four Champions League, it would be quite a really, it feels like it would be a really good top four race.

23:18It's a shame that it's been for now. Are you suggesting that the thinly spreadness of the Champions League places diluted the brand? Perhaps at 5.30 on Sunday, then the really kind of serious stuff starts as West Ham travelled to Newcastle, looking for three points to take them out of the bottom three, at least until Tuesday when their relegation rivals Tottenham, currently two points above the Hammers, visit Chelsea. Meanwhile, the two title rivals are also separated by just two points. Arsenal playing Monday night at home to Burnley, looking to put some goals on them. City on Tuesday away to Bournemouth.

23:55By the way, regarding the dilution of the Champions League brand, this just in from our permutation desk, if Man City win the FA Cup, right, and Aston Villa finish fifth and win the Europa League, okay, and Palace, right, lose the Conference League final against Raya Vallecardo, who are a good side, then the league placings for the European qualification will go as follows. First to sixth will all be in the Champions League, right? That's currently Arsenal City, Man United, Liverpool, Villa, and Bournemouth, right? 7th and 8th, which currently is Brighton and Brentford, would go into the Europa League.

24:38And 9th place into the Conference League would be Chelsea, as it stands. Although there are any goal differences above Everton, so possibly Everton. Nine teams in Europe. If Palace win, though, it goes down to 8th. Basically, the top six still go into the Champions League and everybody else just shuffles up and Palace go into the Europa League, yeah. I do think this ludicrous numbers of Premier League teams being in Europe, and you've got about half, is going to create more of these integrity and inverted commas issues. Because you're going to have increasing numbers of teams towards the end of the season, almost binning off the league to focus on European competitions.

25:15And we're already in a situation where on the final day, let's say it does go down to goal difference or even just, you know, regular points. But having a team in Palace who are about to play a cup final against Arsenal and you've got City playing against Villa who could be hung over off the back of winning a European trophy, that's clearly suboptimal, I would suggest. The next season you might have even more of those situations with teams in European semifinals and finals and more or less prioritising those competitions. What's the solution, Charlie? I don't think there is one. I mean, I get because I was thinking with with this final day.

25:53Is that avoidable given the, you know, in the Premier League, obviously, there are about a million permutations. And I'm sure it's very, I'm sure it's fiendishly difficult doing it. But they could have probably foreseen that Arsenal and City would be in the title hunt. And that Villa and Palace were both favorites for their European competitions. I mean, I was thinking, could you have put Villa and Palace against each other? and almost say, look, if there's a reasonable chance you're both going to be focused on Europe, well, don't ruin other teams' origins. Yeah, just play each other and waste each other's time.

26:25Better guided use of VAR to ensure that the right teams were still in contention at that point. Simple. Well, I don't know. It's an interesting point you raised, but I feel it's one that's always been there in football since... Sure, it has in like little... There have been little snippets of it, but I think if you've got half a league in Europe, Yes, half a league, half a league. That's an issue, potentially. I don't know, Charlie. That was a very important point. I'm scared. I'm going to move straight on. We touched on Arsenal-Burnley and Man City going to Bournemouth. We're going to have a show before that on the Sunday, but since we're talking about the type of race, do you see, as Charlie put it, anyone dropping serve in those games, Natalie?

27:12with Man City Bournemouth yeah yeah I think that is a very tricky one and even Burnley I mean let's they just they just made Aston Villa drop points on the weekend yeah and I think it's the case but that's that Aston Villa with one eye or two eyes on the cup but that is that is the case that Charlie was mentioning on we think that you know relegated teams are not going to do anything and mid-table teams are not going to do anything until they do. Right. Look at Brentford-West Ham. It is a long shot. And chances are... For City. No, chances are Arsenal are going to score. I don't know. They're going to beat Burnley apparently 3-0.

27:55But with City, City-Bournemouth, it's such a tough game, honestly. And it is a very, very good game. It would be a very good game regardless of the situation on the table because of how intense Bournemouth is and the quality of their players. And they're all playing for Iraola, who's leaving the club. There's a lot of good stories there. A great Brazilian. A great Brazilian. Thank you for mentioning it. I don't want to be the person bringing it up all the time. So yeah, really good young players. They're 16 or 17 games unbeaten now, Bournemouth. 16. So yeah, it's remarkable. So it is very possible that City drop points there.

28:33and Arsenal wins the league without being on the pitch. All the neutrals will be rejoicing. You say that, but when Leeds won the title in 1992, they had a camera at, I think it was Lee Chapman's house and all the players sat on it, very small. When Leicester won, it was Jamie Vardy. I think there's a certain romance, the players all drinking low-strength lager watching a game and jumping around. In 1997, it happened where both Liverpool and Newcastle, I think, had to drop points in the midweek and they both did, which handed the title to Manchester United. I mean, I think Bournemouth will be missing a couple of players, won't they?

29:09I mean, there's Christie and there's Jimenez for unsavory reasons. And Ryan Christie has been such a reliable practice on the midfield. Exactly. So I think that's a blow for them. I do think that if City can take it to the final day, I know that there's this assumption that Palace will play their under-12s and will basically roll over and let Arsenal win. I don't think it will quite be like that. I think Palace will, you know, they may rotate a bit, but I don't think that's such a gimme. And in the same way that, you know, West Ham away, as it proved, was really hard and they were going for it.

29:41But Palace are, I know they won't have loads to play for. Maybe they, we just don't really know. Tight ground. But it's being assumed, I think, that that'll be, you know, a really easy game. I'm not sure it will be. I think if City can just take it to the last day, then who knows? Have a team who've waited a long time for a league title ever gone to Southhurst Park late in the season and seen dreams fall apart? we simply don't know. Exactly. I mean, no team has ever led on the final day and then not won it. Is that right? Yeah. No team's ever come from behind on the final day. Yeah, no one's ever...

30:11It really happened a few years ago when City played Aston Villa at home on the last day, which is also happening this season, and they were 2-0 down. Wow. Ilkay Gundogan did some stuff. We were talking about refereeing and VAR and stuff, as we love to do. Listener Emma writes in, says, three clean sheets in the three games that Gabriel should have been suspended for after head-butting Haaland. That yellow was the real refereeing turning point in the title run-in, in my opinion, says listener Emma. I don't know what affiliation football-wise listener Emma has, but I am curious about why Arsenal winning would be such an unpopular thing for so many neutrals, given that you've got City who won, what, five of the last seven titles?

30:54Yeah. and have a significant legal challenge to their... A lot of fans have spent years saying they have a big problem with sports washing and state-owned football clubs. But they have an even bigger problem with Arsenal. Arsenal can deny Man City the league title and PSG the Champions League. But I think there's a really obvious... In theory, yes, it's great. Well, it's because people don't care about City. People don't benchmark themselves against City. City winning a league doesn't cause any introspection or jealousy because it's like, well, that's City. They're not real. Whereas if Arsenal were, and Arsenal have like a huge media presence, a huge fan base.

31:30They're annoying. They're a rival. They've got a history, like, you know, they used to be good. It's way funnier for everyone. If Arsenal are collapsing, City don't provoke like schadenfreude particularly. It's like if you see some local tech billionaire driving down the street in your Ferrari, you just go, there's the tech billionaire Ferrari. But if your next door neighbour would do that. Oh my goodness. Exactly. Or like professionally. When our friends become successful. Kind of. We all benchmark ourselves. All the gunners. We all benchmark ourselves against people in life, whether that's professionally or friends who you think you're at a similar level to.

32:03If they're doing way better, that does provoke jealousy. As you say, if it's someone who's like unbelievably wealthy and whatever, you're just like, yeah, obviously he's really successful. That doesn't provoke feelings in me. They spend their whole lives hating Arsenal or seeing Arsenal win or seeing that developing feelings towards Arsenal. But not to City. And not with PSR, you know. People are not like, oh, I hate this PSR thing. No, and they are. They spend their whole lives building something towards big rivals. Completely. And this is not unique to Arsenal. Last season, Arsenal found, I think, a lot more that Liverpool won the league because it was like, when City did, it's like, that is annoying, but it's City.

32:45For then Liverpool to come and do it, that was like, oh, that should have been our title. and in the same way Arsenal fans would probably way rather City won the league than Manchester United even though City have dominated because they grew up with Manchester United as this kind of loathed rival they'd probably rather City won it than Chelsea you know in the same kind of way like they inspire those feelings in a way that City have never really done like it's an extraordinary situation don't get me wrong but though apparently it's kind of I've heard it's not dissimilar in Germany that actually when Leverkusen won which from the outside that must have prompted rejoicing.

33:21It was more like, no, that's annoying. It's actually easier if Bayern win every year because that's just, that doesn't count. So in Scotland right now, Hibs must be absolutely furious. I'm sure there is a lot of that going around. Murray got into trouble, didn't he? Did he? He's a Hibs fan and he said, but he actually wants Hearts to win the league just to sort of end the duopoly. And a lot of Hibs fans were like, no. That is disgraceful to be fair and he should be ashamed of himself. Wow. Not the first time he's got in trouble for talking about who he would support in a sporting event. Very good point.

33:55The famous D-Anyone, but England, 2006 World Cup. There you go, Charlie. Alienated the British public for some time. Right. I'm never going to forgive him for that. Right. City at Bournemouth, you have to wait till Tuesday for that. I'm sure we'll talk about all of this more on Tuesday. Just to mention down the other end, the one game this weekend relating to the relegation battle is West Ham's trip to Newcastle, which they absolutely must win if they want to take it to the final day. It is fascinating. It's such a big weekend for West Ham because if they beat Newcastle, they push Spurs into the relegation zone because Spurs are only playing on Tuesday.

34:34If they lose to Newcastle and Spurs beat Chelsea, they can be relegated by Tuesday. And if they both lose, it's down to the last round. So it's fascinating. Right. The last round which sees West Ham face Leeds and Spurs home at Everton. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I spoke to De Zerbi on Monday after the Leeds game. And one of the first things he mentioned was, I hope Leeds play like that when they face West Ham in the final round, which is a fair point. That was Raleigh Ferguson famous, you know, talking about if only teams made as much effort against us as they do against Newcastle. What a game you were at on Monday.

35:12Yeah, yeah, it was. Say that about a team like Leeds. And it was Leeds he was referring to. Having seen De Zerbe and Spurs, their momentum a little bit halted by Farkas' side on Monday, what's your take on this? I was so confused in the final whistle. What does it mean? I was just ready for a win or a loss. I wasn't ready for a point. I think the main point De Zerbe made is that they need to handle their emotions better. and especially yeah especially with with their decisions in the final third like that final ball anyone in particular?

35:50yeah just go there yeah Richarlison yeah he wasn't he wasn't good in the ball and to be fair like Spurs just weren't they weren't making good final decisions and and it was very it was their main problem against Leeds because they created chances and Leeds they're very good in making teams create half chances, you know, and it's quite remarkable what Daniel Fark did, because at the start of the season, we were talking about Leeds as this team who should adapt because they had this attacking brand in the championship. And they really did adapt because now they are quite comfortable without having much of the ball.

36:32And they can push teams into just having those, being uncomfortable all the time or having a lot of half chances. and this is exactly what they did with Spurs. So, I mean... They came so close to winning this as well, no? They came very close to winning, yes. After Leeds scored, Spurs completely vanished from the game. And then they came back in the final minutes and created a few good chances. So, it's really hard to... I still think they're going to be safe, Spurs. I still think they're going to be safe. But that Chelsea game on Tuesday is going to be very interesting. Yeah, at Stamford Bridge, their record there is shocking.

37:11It is terrible. It is a good time to play Chelsea, potentially, just a few days after that cup final. Especially, I'm sure, you know, Spurs fans probably be hoping for extra time and, you know, really knacker them out. But yes, I mean, I've been at many of those Stamford Bridge defeats for Spurs and it is, yeah, they do just really struggle there. But it has, Nathalie's right, it's been so up and down. and like even within that game yeah you go from thinking Spurs are more or less there they're basically safe that would have been such a huge win if they got over the line then yeah that Kinski save to protect that point I mean what a huge save that might be and there have been times they've been playing simultaneously and it's been you know West Ham that one where they had against Everton and then Spurs got the late win against Wolves yeah I do think they'll I do think Spurs will stay up I mean I think it will be like the best team to go down from the Premier League in a long time because i don't think west ham are that bad right since that team that went down with uh what 42 points back in 2003 2003 who was that west ham oh yeah the the two good to go down west ham um yeah they're the only team in the 21st century to to get more than 40 points and go down so hence the uh the managerial golden ticket of getting to 40 points i mean they have i do feel The last two games that they've lost, both of them haven't scored.

38:32That's pretty harsh on them. I think both against Brentford, they lost 3-0, obviously 3-0, but they could easily have got something from that game. Yeah, they may have got close against Arsenal. I don't think that's really been mentioned. But yeah, and obviously that game they could have got something too. So either they're due a result or it's just going against them at the worst possible time. Well, indeed. and the trip to Newcastle, while Newcastle's record is not good of late, is by no means a gimme. Although they did win this fixture last season under Yulon Lopetegui. And indeed, Brunner's first win as West Ham manager came against the Magpies in November.

39:10Huh. Well, we'll see. We'll see. Can they take it to Chelsea Spurs on Tuesday? We'll find out. Meantime, next up, let's take a look at the drama It's ramping up north of the border as Hartson Celtic vie for the Scottish title. We'll get the word on the Scottish Premiership next.

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42:15in the away end and Celtic have been given an almighty lifeline in this title race and Motherwell are absolutely second Scottish Premiership everybody it's hearts in mouths up in Scotland this weekend as the title race heads to the final day with a big clash of the two contenders Celtic and Hearts we're joined now by Phil Hay of the Athletic and Hearts fandom Phil first of all is this the most incredible title race in Scotland ever? There have been title races before one in particular between Rangers and Celtic which went down to the last day and over the years it has been neck and neck between those two on more than one occasion it's certainly as tight as it's been between an Old Firm club and a club outside the Old Firm since 1986 when Hearts lost it on the last day on goal difference to Celtic so no absolutely not the tightest there's ever been but it is Absolutely up there, as close as you are likely to get in any season.

43:20And also the significance of the fact that the top two play each other on the last day, which wasn't the case in 1986, but will be the case on Saturday. Yeah, after another incredible night on Wednesday, when Hearts looked like they might actually have it sewn up, their first title in what, six decades? They'd beaten Falkirk 3-0. Celtic were drawing 2-2 at Motherwell. This is what, after 94, 95 minutes. Then there was this huge VAR decision which saw Motherwell's Sam Nicholson penalised for handball and Celtic's Iaini Anaccio scored from the spot in the 98th minute which means that, as you say, it all comes down to the final day with Celtic facing Hearts in Glasgow.

44:00It was before that goal coming down to the final day anyway. The difference would have been that Hearts would have been topped and cleared by three points with a better goal difference, not a wildly significant goal difference but enough to mean that Celtic would have had to have won by three clear goals at the weekend, which isn't beyond them. That is definitely true. But it's completely changed the dynamic in the sense that if Celtic win now at the weekend, the title is theirs. You're right. I mean, it's provoked a lot of debate, the penalty. And I mean, I have to be a little bit careful here because people will say I'm not objective about this.

44:33And it is fair to say that I'm of a heart's persuasion. There isn't anybody on here of a Celtic persuasion and people listening saying, well, where's the Celtic perspective on this? then I hear you. I think the thing that probably needs to be focused on more is the fact that in order to make a decision on it, John Beaton, the referee, had one angle to look at from a distance, which, to my mind, wasn't wildly conclusive. There's no doubt that the hand is there. But there were no alternative angles to look at. He took the decision in the space of about 20 seconds. I think there's a lot of criticism of VAR in various parts of the world, and particularly England, but it is particularly tin pot up in Scotland.

45:12I mean, it looks underfunded and it looks inadequate. And I do think that one camera angle of that decision and the decision itself taken in the space of 15 to 20 seconds is, you know, fairly sort of inept and amateur refereeing. Although, as I say, in Beaton's defence, that is all that he has to work with. It really isn't an adequate system. But there's no doubt that the hand was up as well. It wasn't obvious that it didn't hit the hand. But in the end, the penalty was given, and that's the key factor here. Right. You might say it only took 20 seconds because it was, from that angle, a fairly clear hand ball.

45:52I know that Derek McKinnis called it a disgusting decision, and the Athletics' very own Colin Miller said, if you're a Hearts fan, you'd be feeling like you've been robbed blind and absolute travesty. I must admit, that wasn't my take. I'm not sure if anyone here has seen it from a neutral perspective, Charlie. I think I'd be pretty furious if I was a Hearts fan. Would you? Yeah. I don't think it's, it doesn't feel to me like a clear and obvious error. I know that that wording is maybe meaningless now anyway. But was it a case of reversing the on-field decision then, which would bring in the clear and obvious error argument?

46:27No, I think it's one of those that you normally see where either way it's not really getting, or certainly in the Premier League, I don't, I must confess, I don't know if it's the same kind of bar in Scotland. But it felt to me like one of those ones where if it's given on-field, it's probably not overturned likewise if it's not given it's probably not overturned okay I mean it was a strange way to jump for the ball with your arm up there I thought I mean initially it looked like it could have been for an elbow rather than a handball but yeah anyway it does all come down then to Saturday lunchtime where Phil if I'm not mistaken hearts can draw Celtic must win but for the neutrals or if anyone was writing the script for this this would be the finale you'd want if you were a neutral absolutely yeah and perfect finish for the Scottish season.

47:09I think from a Hearts perspective, it's a sense of creeping death rather than excitement at this point. It's probably worth stressing just how difficult it is to win the Scottish title if you are not an all-firm club. First of all, you have to outrun both of those teams. And it's not the Hearts haven't spent money this season or signed players. They absolutely have. And actually, quite a few of the players who were signed in January haven't made a particularly big impact this side of the transfer window. But they do have bigger budgets and they have considerably bigger wage bills. Hearts have won 15 of 19 games at home this season and are unbeaten.

47:45They've lost three league games in 2026. They've taken 10 points from four games in the split. They've conceded 31 goals, I think, from 37 games across the season. And it's still, odds on, isn't going to be enough. and that's why I will die on the hill of saying that Hearts will never win the title in my lifetime. I've said that since I was about 10 years old. I think it will be proven again at the weekend and I think it will not happen while I'm alive and kicking, sadly. Who won when these two teams last faced each other at Celtic Park, Phil? So Hearts have won at Celtic Park this season and it is absolutely the case that Celtic are a weaker version of themselves than they have been in previous years.

48:28I'm also, I'm not naive enough to realise that had they not had that weird experiment with Wilfred Nonsi in the middle of the season and got rid of Martin O 'Neill at a point where Martin O 'Neill seemed to have them ticking over perfectly, really, and really nicely, then I think they would have finished top. I think they would have done if O 'Neill had had the full stretch. And that was a big mistake and it did a lot of damage to them and it's absolutely helped. So I think on Saturday they are beatable. Hearts are good enough to get a draw there. But it feels stacked in their favour, I would say.

49:04And this is total paranoia and it's probably, it might well be unfair, but there are plenty of Hearts supporters who will feel that if it comes down to big decisions, then they will not be going our way. All right. Know that feeling, Phil. If it does go Hearts way, I don't know if you're willing to countenance this, but if it does go that way, I was talking to a Hearts fan this week who likened it to Leicester's triumph, the greatest ever against the odds title success that English football's ever seen. Hearts, the case for them being an equivalent achievement, that's about their road back from going into an administration, relegation just over a decade ago.

49:44How big an achievement would it be, given expectations this season? They very nearly did go out of business. 10-12 years ago it was a close run thing it's funny actually there was zero expectation of this at all at the start of the season the only thing that kind of stirred a bit of interest in us or a bit of hope in us was the investment by Tony Bloom the Brighton owner because Bloom is notorious in a positive sense for finding really good marginal gains in the transfer market and I think if you're a non-old firm club that's the only way that you progress in Scotland is by really the sort of money ball exercise.

50:24And somebody like Claudio Braga, who Hearts have signed for£400 ,000, scored 17 goals this season. I can't really think of a player who's carried the club in the way that he has this season. But from our perspective, it's more to do with the fact that it's been so long since we won the title. And everybody is, no getting away from it, massively haunted by what happened in 86 when all we needed was a point at Dundee. We lost at Dundee. Celtic beat St Mirren 5-0 and the title went that way on goal difference. We haven't really had a sniff since then. I was five at the time. This is the first time in my lifetime that I can actually sort of vividly remember us being in a position where one result will do it.

51:06And one result might yet do it, but you can understand why we err on the side of feeding the worst, if that makes sense. Absolutely. Well, Phil, that's really kind of you to join us. and we'll be counting down with you to the big game on Saturday. Are you going along? No, it's away from home and I have a season ticket, but you need loyalty points up at about 10 ,000 for this game. So sadly not. I'm in two minds, quite honestly, as to whether I even want to watch it because I'm not deluded enough to not know what's coming. But I think come Saturday morning, I'll force myself down the pub. Right.

51:41There's some heavy use of superstition going on in that answer. Phil, thank you very much. Enjoy yourself at the pub, whatever the outcome and we look forward to seeing lots more of you in the months to come because you're going to be joining our American jaunt for the World Cup Yeah I can't wait I need to get the suitcase out soon the paperwork's just about all sorted and I'll be seeing you in LA Yeah bring it on Excellent Alright then Phil Hay thank you very much indeed Thank you Our game 12.30 on Saturday What a build up to the FA Cup final then What's next on the Togli Football Show well very shortly we'll catch up on any other points of interest in the Premier League weekend.

52:18But before that, the Championship Playoffs, Spygate. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network. The Championship Playoff Final is due to be played next Saturday. Saturday week, rather, at Wembley. And it's currently set to be Hull against Southampton. and Southampton, who were 2-1 winners against Borough after extra time on Tuesday. Hull, who'd beaten Millwall 2-0 the previous night. However, there's a major question mark over Southampton's participation as the fallout from Spygate continues. Reports of a likely sporting sanction. Don't know what that will be.

53:08Reactions getting more and more heartfelt from the Borough, the beaten semi-finalist's point of view. further evidence emerging of man standing behind a tree then fleeing to change clothes in a golf club all sorts of drama who can give us the latest? Natalie is there a real chance that Southampton are going to be removed from the final because of the fallout from this story? There is a chance because there are rules to be followed now that were actually created after the Bielsa spy gate which was already very entertaining but very different because Bielsa basically said yeah I did it I'll pay the fine and he went there and did it and paid the fine yeah this is much better so you have an intern an intern rather what's his name Duncan?

53:58Will Solt. Will Solt okay and Will Solt what what is he alleged or actually fairly visibly what did he do? He filmed well some people claim at first he had very complicated equipment and listening devices so it turned out it was a iphone right but they're very powerful these days good zoom live streaming he was spotted by borough and there's a brilliant reconstruction of this by sky sports he was spotted by borough on the corner of their training ground craftily concealed half behind a tree i mean he's not going to win the world hard and seek championship with that tactic but yeah but they spot him he could have been a passer-by but he wasn't he wasn't and when they approached him he fled he hot-footed it he through a prestigious bordering golf club where he went to the toilet to change his clothes.

54:49Wow. By Jason Bourne. Wow. It is the grassy knoll of championship playoff football and it seems like Saints are banged to rights. Yeah. And isn't he now being there investigating to see whether he's been doing this for other opponents of South Africa? They're going through his credit card records to see if he's bought petrol down the road from... From every training ground in the Champa. Wow. A sightseeing around Britain. Actually, it maps Southampton's away upcoming fixtures. I mean, it sort of sounds silly. And it seems particularly silly given Southampton have been so good in the last few months.

55:25But maybe they've been so good because... Right. Well, Barabos Kim Helberg, as I mentioned, the kind of emotional response, was touching, really, the words he had. I think like a lot of people, perhaps, I regarded the whole thing as a curiosity. But he was making the point of the hours that go into trying to legally scout and understand the tactics involved. And at the time, it involves away from your family, the sacrifices that need to be made. And that for another club to just resort to sending somebody down with an iPhone to a closed training session is something that sits very bitterly with them.

56:06Yeah, it is really interesting, though, to try and understand how much of an advantage this would give you. I mean, I wonder if you watch Southampton, have they been incredibly good, if indeed this has happened earlier in the season, at sort of counteracting opposition plans? I think some people might not realise how much planning, specific planning for each fixture goes into football these days. Clubs will spend, usually in a week, a day of training on out-of-possession stuff for the opposition they're about to face, and then a day of in-possession stuff. So it is actually quite valuable, I'd imagine, because you would see where certain players are going to be positioned, you're going to see certain tactics they're going to...

56:44Like, for instance, the Arsenal short corners that they prepared for the Newcastle game, if you'd have seen their training, you'd have seen that. Which they did against Southampton as well. They did lots of short corners. And Southampton beat them. Yeah, it makes you think. So I do think it's more value. Some people are like, oh, who cares? It's just some footballers running around. What does it matter? But I do think... Chasing a pig's blood. Yeah, yeah. I do think you'd get quite a lot of value out of seeing your opposition's training. Well, clearly you must think it because it's taking a pretty big risk given that there are...

57:13I don't know. He brought a change of clothes. True. Hit behind a tree. I didn't find a treat. Yeah, and that's just the one with... This is another story for the ages, really. I mean, I have found this... As you say, Jimbo, you're right. Obviously, at first, it does seem kind of a bit comedic because it's like so amateur hour in its execution. But you're right. I mean, obviously, there's a huge amount at stake. Managers are making... Everyone at the club is making huge sacrifices. And this, I can understand why emotions are running so high. You know, and with, you know, the questions that are being asked of Eckhart as well.

57:47You know, are you a cheat and all of that. Yeah. Questions which he won't answer. Again, in complete contrast to Marcelo Bielsa's approach. Yeah. And Tom Decker, he was asked in the press conference, are you a cheat? To which they ended the press conference. But, you know, it's heavy. It is heavy. Hull awaits somebody in the final, probably Saints. it would be a huge penalty to remove them from the biggest game in football, the richest game in football. Sorry. I mean, what a strange situation as well. The Bayern are now training in case their season's either over, but they're still having to. And I'm sure there must be plenty of people who are like, this isn't going to happen.

58:32You know, like to actually be training with the normal intensity. Well, they're pushing the FA to fast track the disciplinary process. And I imagine that an element of them training might be to keep the pressure on. There's no way you can move the championship playoff final. It's not like it can be delayed due to the calendars and particularly the World Cup imminent. So they're going to have to decide over the next couple of days. Yeah, it is an independent panel that decides that. And it usually takes longer. So they're trying to rush it. But yeah, it's all very confusing. Ticket information is very confusing as well because both teams, they need to start their sales at the same time.

59:10Oh, yeah? Yes, yes. So, yeah, for defence, it's not great either. Indeed not. Indeed not. Hull, who only stayed up in the Championship last season on goal difference and who then had the fourth worst defensive record in the Championship this season. Second bottom on the expected points table. Were they? Yeah. So, again, extraordinary. They've even reached the final in some respects. Anyway, this season. Wow. Yeah. Is that the biggest chasm between expected points and points in the long history of recorded expected points? I believe it's going to be up there. I'd need to probably hire a spy to check out some of my previous seasons.

59:50Alrighty, well there you go. That final due to take plays a week on Saturday. Before that we've got other Premier League. And indeed on Friday, tomorrow as we record, it's Aston Villa Liverpool, which does have a fair bit riding on it. As mentioned earlier on, fourth v fifth, they're both on the same points. Thus, they both have Bournemouth on their hot streak, only four points behind. So if Villa go and win the Europa League anyway and get in in fifth place, then Liverpool would get in in sixth as well. But I don't know. Big game. And I'm interested to see how Villa's selection is going to be, who Naamiri will choose, because you want to rest players, But at the same time, do you want to rest them for 10 days?

1:00:36Because their last game against Burnley and the Europa League final, you know, he needs to find a balance between that. And to be fair, against Burnley, he only made three changes. It was against Spurs that he made seven changes. And so, yeah, there's this factor. It's interesting. And none of them are mathematically guaranteed a place at the Champions League yet. and with Liverpool with things being a bit weird there Weird now yeah weird is a word yeah don't really know what to expect from this game really Right but Villa and Charlie this touches again on what you were mentioning teams with their interests elsewhere we saw what Aston Villa were like against Spurs which has had a potentially huge impact on the relegation battle presumably they'll have their hearts more in this one given that Champions League places need to be sorted.

1:01:32Yeah, I guess. I mean, they will probably be fine. They'll probably get away with it. And obviously they can make it all academic by winning on Wednesday. I mean, Emery does have history with missing out on a league placing for the Champions League and then losing a Europa Cup final with Arsenal in 2019. I'd be amazed if that happened this time just because they do have still quite a lot of margin for error. More curiosity though, because... Is this the Brentfords? Yeah, Liverpool played Brentford on the last day. And if Brentford finish sixth, they need Villa to finish fifth to get in the Champions League.

1:02:05And that would help if Liverpool beat them. But then that wouldn't help them finish fifth. I'm confused. Can you explain that again? So Brentford might need Villa to finish fifth. Yeah, well, anyone finishing sixth or sixth will need Villa to come fifth if they're in the Champions League. Right. So Brentford and Liverpool will be direct rivals, perhaps, for sixth spot? no no well they could be depending on the results but more likely it would be beneficial for brent to lose to liverpool ah so that villa finished fifth yet that would probably mean that why would losing to liverpool mean villa finished fifth because liverpool would win oh right because they're fighting for fourth and fifth not fifth and six i'm up to speed listen i'm so sorry thank you for waiting so it's all i mean it's i think it's quite fun but yeah to charlie's point it's also a huge mess on the last day but it could lead to I mean we've had quite a lot of seasons recently where you know who was Sky going to pick for the last game of the season well there's nothing we're going to see the league the championship trophy presented but I think this this year there's going to be loads going on drama all over okay on this but an ultimate weekend other games include Leeds against Brighton and you saw Leeds against Spurs on Monday and we're very impressed Natalie Yeah, and they can really influence things now at the end of the season.

1:03:27Yeah, they face West Ham on the final day. Yeah, and facing Brighton. Brighton, meanwhile, who are seventh, only two points themselves behind Bournemouth. And two ahead of Brentford. And no side since the start of March has won more games in the top flight than the Seagulls. So it should be a good game, that. Two teams in form. Also, you've got Brentford Crystal Palace. Bees against the Eagles. Exciting. Everton Sunderland. Toffees five games without a win now which is their worst run of the season just when it seemed like European football might be there to be grasped but at the same time that's the type of game that you can't really be disappointed with either because they both overachieved this season with Everton and Sutherland Michael Ray writes in and says I don't speak for all Toffees but I'll be happy finishing outside of the European places as the squad is super thin and the extra games would have killed next season's league campaign.

1:04:24Next season, however, I will be expecting a Europa or Conference League place. Well, yeah, they could be almost, they could be the best team not to qualify for Europe. So that would set them up quite well for next season, given that everyone they'd be competing with could be in Europe. Oh, it has midweek fixtures. Right, okay. And that's kind of the same case with Sutherland. When I spoke to a few Sutherland fans about the possibility of them playing Europe, just now they dropped a few points, but they were a bit worried because they already overachieved this season. I mean, yeah, you don't want to tank next season to stretch in your squad.

1:05:00I hear you. Wolves and Fulham are untroubled by such concerns. Man United and Nottingham Forest face off Sunday lunchtime. United already with their Champions League place secure and Forest just missing out on the Europa League final. Natalie, you're going along to this game is there a specific reason i'm gonna sell this game well because there are there are a few good good stories there uh the main one bruno fernand is trying to reach 20 assists and how many weeks has he been on 19 for oh that's not that long because yeah no and against chelsea was it nobody ever makes it's a bit like the derby points total no nobody ever lots of players start the season on fire and you think oh definitely but you know what's interesting about this one is that I feel that all the players really bought into it.

1:05:52And against Chelsea, for example, Matheus Cunha thought he had the 20th and did the 2-0. And I was at Man United, Sunderland Man United, and there are a few moments where you think, okay, Bruno can shoot from here, but then he chooses the pass, you know? It's so interesting to watch. Wow. If United get a penalty in the last two games. Right. Could he pass it, yeah? Yeah, do it better than Robert Perrott. That's so interesting. And yet, there might have been times when United, certainly against Sunderland, that United's prospects in the game might have actually been impaired by the fact that he was deliberately trying not to score.

1:06:32I don't know if he was deliberately. You make a convincing argument for that, Natalie. But also, last home game for Casemiro. Yes. And I know he's very much looking forward to that because we spoke about it. To his last home game. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, addressing the fans, it's going to be a nice moment. And there's the question mark with Michael Carrick, because apparently he's going to be, yeah, he's going to be recommended to Jim Radcliffe to be the next manager. If they can get it over the line by the weekend, it would be nice because by the time he picks up the microphone to address the fans like they always do, it's nice to know if you're going to be in charge for the next season.

1:07:11100%. He could reveal it then, there and then. That would be quite a nice moment. Yeah. Yeah, drop the mic. Your job now is to get behind the current. Exactly, yeah. And speaking of getting behind the current manager, is that what Forrest will be doing with Vitor Pereira? He is on an eight-game unbeaten run. That's pretty good, isn't it? Well, yeah. Tell these to Marimakis, you know. You never know what's crossing his mind. But apparently, yeah. Apparently, it's true. It's not like they wouldn't then just sack him after two games if they start next season badly. I mean, it's hardly like a binding commitment if they keep it for a bit longer.

1:07:45Fair enough. Wow, so much to look forward to over this weekend and the next few days. Hard to keep track of it all, but we're going to be here on Sunday evening to round up events thus far in Scotland and at Wembley and in the Premier League. And then, of course, we'll have a show on Wednesday morning post-Mannion City's trip to Bournemouth to see what the situation is there. Woof. All right. That's it for today's Totally Football Show, though. So many, many thanks to Natalie for coming in. Thank you. Enjoy your weekend there in Manchester, Natalie. Thanks to you, Duncan. Charlie, are you heading back to Rome?

1:08:25Heading to Paris next week. Oh, right. You've done Rome. Yes. Okay, because the final is coming out on Sunday. It is, yeah. Same day as... The Rome Derby. Yeah, I mean, classic Italian scheduling. You can think that having the Rome Derby next door, but Sinnoh will most likely be in the final. Yes. And I think there's talk of rearranging the Rome Dalm. There has been a lot of talk of rearranging it. So Sinner taking precedent, which is pretty huge given, you know, football's precedent. I think it's easier to reschedule a football match than a tennis final. Well, yes. Maybe not. But also just the fact that Sinner is such a big deal.

1:09:02And I mean, he really is. He really is. Huge game that for Roma. A little bit like him, but mostly Roma. but hey you'll know all about that if you follow our European edition of the Totally Football Show which will itself be back on Tuesday morning anyway thank you Charlie, thank you Duncan, thank you Natalie thank you Jake and Charlie in the booth and thank you listener have a great weekend and we'll catch up with you soon

1:09:31You've been listening to the Totally Football Show part of the Athletic FC podcast network for other great podcasts just like this one including The Athletic FC and our dedicated club podcasts, search for The Athletic in all the usual places. We're also at The Totally Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

1:09:58The Athletic FC.

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