Can Liverpool sink any lower? How high can Arsenal fly?

0:00The Athletic FC

0:10Tony Football Show Big Wednesday in the Champions League PSG, PSV and Arsenal on a Bayern spree in a big week for those We ask, after Liverpool lose again will Arnie soon get terminated? After 5-3 defeat in Paris is Thomas the Frank engine now out of the tunnel? And can anything derail this Arsenal? Could it be Chelsea this weekend? We'll be looking forward to that big round in the Premier League with derbies for the Gunners at one end to the Gonners at the other as Wolves travel to Villa and all sorts of other delights in between in this Totally Football show.

0:47Thursday the 27th of November. Got a bumper Totally Football show for you today. With Duncan Alexander of course. Hello James. Duncan what a lovely shirt you're wearing. Thank you James. Charlie Eccleshire is here. Hello. In a more nuanced item. but very nice you're yeah also Liam Dahm hello James hi and more I think that's a message for all of us there isn't it I hope so yeah that's what it says by the way on Liam's t-shirt it's Thanksgiving today isn't it isn't it Thanksgiving today I do Thanksgiving very much so what do you want to give thanks for Liam just everyone here today really sat around the table isn't it with damn you took mine Duncan probably thanks to UEFA for their Swiss format embracing and all the raw drama and jeopardy you experienced at the emirates on wednesday night charlie what about you yeah i mean all the goals uh that we got last night 42 in nine matches yeah i mean editorially it's a great segue but a little bit superficial in terms of what you're really expressing well i mean i don't know how deep you want me to go um but maybe you know you can save that for offline.

2:02All right. Let's do this podcast first, though. As you say, 42 goals in nine matches, which was almost twice as many as there were on Tuesday. Why? I don't know. But the results on Wednesday were, well, in the big game at the Emirates, Arsenal put three past FC Bayern, although the Bavarians did get that lovely breakaway goal from teen sensation Lennart Karl. Arsenal, five wins from five now in the competition. The other North London side in action was Spurs, who went to Paris to face PSG, twice took the lead and ended up losing 5-3. That's much more like it. Meanwhile, at Anfield, Liverpool's nightmare run continued with a 4-1 defeat at home to PSV.

2:43That is now three matches in a row that Liverpool have lost by three goals. PSV, for their part, have now thrashed both the Champions of England and the Champions of Italy in the space of just a few weeks. Elsewhere on Wednesday night, there were seven goals in Piraeus between Olympiacos and Real Madrid. Four of them from Kylian Mbappé, who responded to Olympiacos taking the lead by scoring the second fastest hat-trick in Champions League history. It took him six minutes and 42 seconds. He later added in another goal amid a spirited Greek comeback and the game finished 4-3. Inter's perfect start came to a halt away to Atletico Madrid.

3:21The Nerazzurri losing 2-1 in the 92nd minute to Atleti. It was a feisty affair, that one. Italy's other Nerazzurri at Atlanta, though, had a much better time of it. They went to Eintracht Frankfurt and beat them 3-0. Same scoreline for Sporting in their victory at home to Club Bruges. And lastly, the two early games on Wednesday were both pretty lively. Copenhagen, 3-0 up against Kazakh side Almaty at the Parken. With 10 minutes to go, it ended up 3-2. So a little bit of tension at the end. and Cypriot side Paphos had a late goal to grant them another surprise result. They twice came from behind at home to Monaco, once with a David Luiz header and ended up drawing 2-2.

4:03The water park adjacent outfit are currently 24th and in line for the... Hey! Monaco very much on the slide. But yeah, Paphos with your David Luiz could be heading for the knockout phases as it stands. Monaco possibly the only football club who could have a good water slide at their ground because obviously it's above ground. Be the only good thing they... Oh, yeah. By the sea. Hang on a second. Most grounds are above. Most grounds are above ground. No, but it's higher than most. It's on the top of a car park. And the train station. You could zoom around. Right. Imagine the San Siro if they ran a bit of water from the top of those spirals.

4:43Yeah. Not what we intended to leave with today. I notice that Andy Jones has just popped up on the big screen. Good morning, Andy. Hello. Thank you for having me on the top at Liverpool. Well, indeed. Let's begin with Events Wednesday at Anfield. Here's what Dutchcom's made of it. Yes, now they give it to Dest. There's still a fourth. Dest and Peppy, the Americans. Dest leaves them ready for 10. Yeah! 4-1! They're having a good time there. as increasingly visitors do as PSV romp their way to a 4-1 victory. Andy, once again, we must call this a new low. Are there any signs of it stopping? No. Can we leave it there?

5:32Yeah, unfortunately, it's just gone from bad to worse. And when you think, you know, everyone for us at the weekend, the 3-0 defeat there was going to be the rock bottom, as you say. but then they find a different way and a new way to hit another new low. The problem is that the shoots of progress that you were hoping for, you're just not really seeing. When you are seeing, it takes a second and Liverpool just show brittleness and any setback they seem to encounter at the moment they fail to overcome and that's been the main problem. Nine defeats in the last 12 games. You have to go back to the 1950s to find a similarly bad run from Liverpool.

6:12they're in the s*** and it needs to change as Curtis Jones explained post-game but what realistically can be done at the moment we've got West Ham coming up Liverpool have West Ham coming up at the weekend what realistically can be done to start to turn things around it's a great question um and evidently it's puzzling everybody inside Liverpool as well as the fans because it doesn't seem like an obvious thing to fix because there are so many issues that Liverpool have got at the moment. And I think, for me, it's becoming a lot more of a mentality than a tactical problem. You know, you can pick holes in Liverpool's tactical game still.

6:50But for example, they were great for 30 minutes against Forrest. And then at the first sign of adversity, they can see a really stupid corner and then concede another set piece. And then it's almost like the game's over. And against PSV, again, they can see the really ridiculous penalty. But then dominate the first half, you know, probably should lead. Going into a while of time, you think, right, you know, this has been much better. Liverpool should go on and win this now and then come out with a whimper in the second half and it just gets worse and worse so I think that's the problem it's how do you turn Liverpool's mentality around at the moment because they look beaten they look defeated before they've even stepped out on the pitch opposition smell blood I keep coming back to Forrest's second goal it's the left back on the byline passing it back to the right back on the pen spot that shouldn't happen no opposition team comes to Anfield and does that but 19th place Forrest at the time felt confident enough to start at the second there was no retreat there was let's take these on and teams are smelling blood and Liverpool at the moment seem powerless to stop it they've not got loads of squad options at the moment that they can really use they've got a couple of injuries in bad areas so you know right back for example they're having to play midfielder there which you know is imbalancing things the centre back issue you know Ibrahim Canati's conform continues to to get worse if you like or you know he seems to be at the scene of a crime in every single game but you can't really take him off because of Joe Gomez's fitness isn't quite there and Leone was injured and you look at the summer and how excited everyone was with the signings that they made but it doesn't feel like they fully built the squad in the way they needed to because, you know, a winger is another sort of issue in that neither Salah or Gakpo are performing or producing but there's no one really to come on for them other than a 17-year-old and you shouldn't be putting the amount of pressure that is required on who's coming on at the moment for Liverpool you don't want someone like that.

8:37Do you think Aonistop will make big changes to the team for the trip to West Ham at the weekend? I don't think so, mainly because he's not really got that many options to make. You know, we'll wait to find out Hugo Echotique's injury and hit situation. You feel like Isaac may come back in. But outside of that, you know, the right backs are still going to both be missing. Probably the biggest change he can make is if he does finally sort of pull the trigger at centre-half, I guess, and bring Joe Gomez in for Canate. You know, he might change the left back. But outside of that, you know, Liverpool's squad players, you know, you've got sort of like Wattaro Endo and players like that.

9:09Federico Chiesa, who he's shown no sort of intent to start games, to start league games, even when it was all going well last season. So it's difficult to see how he turns to them. But that's almost the problem. There's not many, many options. You know, we'll wait to see on Florian Vieta's fitness to see where he is and if he might, you know, come back into contention for Sunday. And that, you know, might be something that he can do with changing the system or, you know, just bringing Vieta back in. But that's almost the problem at the moment. that he's, it's the definition of insanity, he's doing the same thing over and over again, even though it's not working.

9:41But the problem is just that Slott doesn't have many options to change. And what he has tried to change, obviously up to this point during this run, hasn't worked because the results have continued in the same way of getting worse almost. There do seem to be some parallels with the slump that Man City went through last season. Around the same time, they were reigning champions. It was kind of precipitated by a disastrous result against the Dutch side in the Champions League as well. That was kind of, I guess, focused around Rodri's absence and eventually it all came right. Is the feeling kind of behind the scenes at Liverpool that this too will eventually right itself?

10:19Or are they thinking that they need another round of investment in January? Or are they thinking of a change on the bench? It's difficult to know. I think generally the support is still there for Slott, that he can be the man to fix things and sort out the situation. but with every passing game the last two particularly results have really changed the feel and the mood music I think around supporters there's been a lot of changing of minds because even up during the international break there was still a feeling that he would be able to turn this round and it would be a matter of time before things got clicked and things like that but the manner of the two performances to lose 3-0 and 4-1 at Anfield is unforgivable really borderline unforgivable as a Liverpool manager it feels like they need to invest again which feels ridiculous given the amount of money they spend but they did sell a lot of players as well and some of them they've not really replaced and yeah it's how do you fix a mentality issue because at the moment Liverpool just feel second best the opposition look sharper hungrier quicker just more up for the fight and Liverpool as I said earlier whenever they sort of encountered any sort of adversity they just seem to wilt and even last you know against PSV they do get back in the game but then it just feels like the next setbacks around the corner and ultimately that sort of that then hits them and they can't recover from that Andy lastly then on the subject of PSV who did win this game 4-1 and we failed to mention so far they're a decent side they recently beat Napoli 6-2 so they are a dangerous outfit what did you make of their performance did they deserve as much credit as Liverpool deserve criticism yeah they definitely deserved credit I think it was interesting they got the early goal and Liverpool did dominate that first half, but then the second half, you just saw, you know, it felt like they changed a few things.

12:08I think Slot sort of explained Liverpool's press fell off a cliff sort of in the second half because of Eckert TK's injury. You got to see the technical quality of PSV and the way they were able to move the ball. They've got a lot of really exciting players and they sort of had threats from a lot of different areas. And there were times where they could have scored a couple more goals because they were real danger on the counter-attack and they had that nice blend of technicians with pace as well and the ability to press the ball. So yeah, it was really, really impressive. And that's the thing, you don't want to sort of take anything away from them because they've rocked up at Anfield and won 4-1 and deserve to win the game.

12:43They decided that Liverpool should generally be beaten, but at the moment, Liverpool are just in a bad place and PSV took advantage of that and well deserved the victory and looked really good in doing it. All right. Andy, thank you so much for joining us and catch up with you again soon. No worries. See you later. Andy Jones. Liverpool ahead of the trip to West Ham and the Champions League are currently just three points above Union Saint-Gilois, who are 25th in the table and thus represent the bottom barrier of the teams that will make the knockouts. Liverpool's final three games will see them travel to Milan to take on Inter, last season's runners-up, and then also on the road to a resurgent Marseille, the side who beat Newcastle on Tuesday.

13:31The final match is at home to Carabaug, which ordinarily you'd say, hmm, but right now, hmm. Yeah, I mean, obviously the West Ham game as well looms. Looms. And fans are remembering stuff, might remember that last autumn, Eric Ten Hag's final game as Manchester United boss was away at West Ham. Ooh. And obviously Nuno's got a particularly good record against Arna Slott. So he has. I'm not saying anything, you know, History doesn't repeat itself always, but there's definitely... But it rhymes. It does rhyme, yeah. A word, as they say in the industry, for Ivan Perisic. The guy is an absolute marvel.

14:11I mean, firstly, anyone who can take set pieces with both feet, you're all right by me. Incredible. And genuinely, I think he could have scored that penalty with either. He went with his right, put it away beautifully. He's 36. He suffered an ACL a couple of years ago. And you'd think at that age, well, I mean, that could almost be the end of him. And he went back to Croatia, sort of from Spurs, recovered quite quickly from the ACL. Having in September, he's back playing in April, and he's just back playing top-level football again. He's incredible. It feels like he's been doing it forever. And one last thing, a weirdly Cat Stevens-coded front line for PSV.

14:49Because? Till and Mann. Very good. That's so good, isn't it? Oh. That was Liverpool's defeat at home to PSV. Next up, let's touch on happier matters for Premier League teams with Arsenal's 3-1 defeat of Bayern Munich. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. One too many, Martinelli wanted back and now he's off and running and there's the season and he's in behind Kimmich and he's away from the keeper and he's got an open goal. It's Martinelli! There you go. that was the freshly returned Martinelli making it a whopping 3-1 for Arsenal against a Bayern team that had not lost a single game all this season Duncan and Charlie you were both there Liam you were writing about this extraordinary for Arsenal first of all six points clear in the Premier League of course and five for five now in the Champions League players coming back from injury pretty perfect night I was intrigued by Declan Rice's comments afterwards He was saying how hard Bayern are to play against, specifically for the way they like to rotate a lot of their build-up, that it's kind of been really hard for Arsenal to go man for man in the press.

16:00They had to be quite a zonal and really patient. And I thought first half, they really sat back, first 10, 15 minutes especially. I thought it showed a real different side to their game, the kind of side that you need in Europe sometimes, where you can sit deep, absorb pressure. I thought they were then pretty good on transition. They were pretty good when they kicked along with Raya and played off second balls. and even the calling they get for the opening goal comes about really from a second ball in midfield and Zubimendi just really, really harrowing. I think it's Comrade Lima and then they're enforcing the set piece.

16:28So we had a lot of chat often about Arsenal and their creativity and open play stuff, but I just thought defensively they showed all those sides from sitting deep all the way up to kind of pressing man for man and Mosquera and Saliba going so tight with Kane and Karl. Duncan, give us a stat about Arsenal and open play goals. High scoring Premier League team from open play in November, which confound some people's narratives. Are they becoming too reliant on their goals? No, it's a worry. You do wonder. And that's because of Eberich Yezey? Yeah, who, to Liam's point, was fairly quiet in the first half as the game.

17:03It was a very, it's rare you go to a football game where, as Charlie was saying before we came on over, there was not that much at stake in some senses because, you know, Bayern are fine even though they lost a match. But I've rarely been at a football game where people settled in to watch sort of a tactical battle more than this. First off, Bayern had a lot of the ball and a lot of the Arsenal fans were sort of, oh, this is quite interesting. What's going on? And it was really kind of fascinating. But then the second half, to Liam's point, again, I think obviously Arteta imparted some information at half time and Arsenal came out.

17:36What did he impart? Well, I think what Bayern were doing, the way to counter it and that second half performance from Arsenal was outstanding, particularly Declan Rice, who, for people who can remember, but that was a sort of Roy Keane in the 90s sort of performance. I mean, it's weird. These Champions League group games are sort of like deluxe Carabao, where it's like they're low stakes in some way. The pressure's off. You know, every league game is so suffocating the pressure, whereas you have the midweek and it's kind of like, yeah, this should be fun. Like, I didn't really sense any stress or anxiety going into this game, whereas obviously you just had the North London derby where everyone's really uptight going in and there's Chelsea away and that has this like seismic feel.

18:15this felt like obviously you really want to win it because it's Bayern but you know if they lost it didn't really matter right because Arsenal won the first four games exactly so both teams were in a strong position but yeah I mean the second half performance was especially impressive because for the first 15 minutes Arsenal absolutely went for Bayern first 15 minutes of the second half and it was as if they were just sort of pummeling them but Bayern somehow managed to stay up and often once a team weathers that kind of storm you think ah sort of what have they got left but they actually then just went again and got those two goals.

18:47And as has been the narrative this season, it's the squad. You know, they were able to, Martinelli and Madweke, Madweke had to come on early because Trossard got injured. But, you know, two subs scoring, which was the case in their first Champions League game away at Athletic Club. And Calafiore had just come off the bench, put in a beautiful assist. They kind of battered them. I mean, like the numbers, the XG was 3.1 to 0.65 in Arsenal's favour. It was dominant. I mean, actually in XG terms, more dominant than the 4-1 against Spurs. Or at least Arsenal had a much higher XG than they had in that game.

19:22Yeah, they really looked superior in that second half. You mentioned the opening goal during Timber there, and Barney conceding again from a set piece. We should also talk about their equaliser, the phenomenal counter-attack there. What was it, two touches and then... It wasn't a counter-attack, was it? It was a settled possession. Maybe I'm being overly technical here. OK. Sorry, Jim. No, no, I mean, you're right. That was the strength of it, that it looked like a transition, right? To just go one ball in behind. Right, from one end of the field to another, yeah. That was the one pass I think Bayern had kind of on repeat that looked like it could keep threatening and was probably more the reason I think Calafiore came on was to probably provide a bit more physicality up against Alise, not intentionally to come on and say, you know, go on and set up the goal.

20:07Yeah, it was a really good move, I think. So Kimmich pings it up to Gnabry, who first times it across to... Yeah, because it was the one time where they switched. Yeah, they switched over and then Carl crashed in the box. So, yeah, it was a really good move. I think that's the danger when you do sit off with someone like Kimmich and with his passing range and his quality that you then say, well, OK, we're going to have to defend whatever he can kind of produce. But, yeah, I think mostly they kept Kimmich fairly quiet and wasn't always able to do that. All right. Harry Kane was dropping deep as well, but mainly to chat to the ref.

20:40It's the first time he's ever played 90 minutes against Arsenal and not had a shot. I mean, it felt like he barely had a touch. He didn't have a touch for 10 minutes. I looked at the clock. His first touch was after 10 minutes. Most of his touches seemed to be in Bayern's own box, actually. But there was a moment, because he got the ball about half an hour in, and he had his first proper touch with the ball, because there was enough time for him to get booed. And I don't think he got booed before or after, genuinely. I don't remember there being a moment where he had the ball long enough for that to happen.

21:05There were a few smattering in the second half. But yeah, you're right. He barely influenced the game at all. And then one player for Bayern who did, Manuel Noir? Yeah. And I've got a particular love of... What happened on that? So first of all, on the corner, what happens there? So Timber, I think, runs across him, or he gets a couple of runners across him from the back post that kind of just knock him off of his stride. He just seems to then panic and go, well, I've got to come for it now and deal with the ball in. And he comes out kind of half trying to punch it, half trying to catch it, and Timber gets the flick on, which, I mean, for not a hugely tall guy, he's got a great jump on him, Timber.

21:36They've got a few giants in that team. They do, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's pretty impressive, or bad defending. the balls are it's amazing but for him to find that space just in front of the keeper with the size it was very much welcome to our league wasn't it pack your six yard box well watch out but yeah I mean I love Manuel Neuter and also slightly pitch him in the same breath because he did invent modern goalkeeping essentially like what we now think of as what goalkeepers do was in a lot of ways down to him but he's like one of those bands that's like still doing the tours but can't quite play get the high notes or do the because There were a lot of moments in that game where his kicking was a bit weak.

22:13He can't really reach the halfway line as much as he would like to. And then, obviously, for Arsenal's third goal, if you did a career heat map of touches outside the box from Manjana, there was that one in the World Cup where he got robbed in the opposition half. But he got absolutely done. He floundered. He tried to bring down Martinelli, and it was never going to happen. The amazing thing about him, just the chutzpah on the guy, even after that he then did a no-look throw and it was like you've just conceded that goal to Martinelli you've kind of made an idiot out of yourself I'd maybe keep a low profile and he's still just like doing mad stuff he believes in the past if you don't do that yeah exactly I love that it's amazing he believes in his craft more than anyone I've ever seen now that craft is slowly fading but it was lovely to see and I think we got the full Manu Noor experience yeah he was still roving up around the halfway line even after that third goal remarkable Arsenal then as I say five wins out of five in the Champions League six points clear in the Premier League Chelsea at the weekend what a game that sets up as one's just beaten FC Bayern the other one's just put three goals past Barcelona so no no so well set up that yeah well we should see oh by the way the Gunners under 19s also beat Bayern on Wednesday their equivalent youth outfit a 4-2 victory for Arsenal's juniors in the UEFA youth league it featured a frankly ridiculous goal from 15 year old max downman the veteran have you seen that goal yeah yeah a delicious sort of pirouette and then dinks over the keeper i mean he's playing the champions league come on it's you know it's everything you want from a youth team player like it's the car when you hear like youth team player scores amazing goal it's it's got that sort of mad skill and then audacious finish and arsenal's lineup also featured the The youngest player to ever appear in the UEFA Youth League, Luis Munoz, or Munoz possibly, who's aged 13.

24:12Oh my goodness. December 2011 he was born, so for fans of rapidly ageing. So there you go. Crikey, what a blisteringly good night for Arsenal on Wednesday. Next up, let's hear what happened to their neighbours across town Spurs on their trip to Paris.

24:34This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Olly Kay and the very best football writers around. At the end of the day, they're playing in front and they're taking shots, but Spurs have been quite happy with that. Another strike at this time, it's in!

24:58What a hit that is from Vichina. Glenn Hoddle with his very own Steve McLaren on Sky Sports moment, celebrating Spurs' defensive pragmatism just ahead of Vichina's extraordinary equaliser in what turned out to be a 5-3 PSG win over Spurs Wednesday night. Jay Harris was there and he joins us now literally from the Gardenault. Hey, Jay. Hey, guys. Jay, they wanted entertainment. Yeah, exactly that. I'm not too sure, you know, conceding five goals was exactly what they wanted. But I think Spurs fans came away at least pleased that Frank abandoned the 5-4-1 system, which everybody criticised after the North London derby.

25:41And I actually think his personnel selection was really crucial as well. Started Archie Gray, Lucas Bergwijn and Pape Sarr together in midfield for the first time since the opening day of the season when they beat Burnley. And I think that youthful midfield, the vigour, the energy it brings, the technical quality it brings, was something that fans have been crying out for all season. There's this quite divisive partnership of Ben Tenkur and Jaapelinha that Tottenham fans are getting really irritated with. So I think Frank was instantly onto a winner for the fact that he broke that partnership up.

26:12And Spurs were pretty decent for the first 45 minutes. And then I still don't really know what happened in the second half, but it just felt like they just completely collapsed and Romero probably had his worst game of the season. Frank also played two up top with Colin Mawani and Richarlison, both of whom scored. Yeah, this was actually a massive game for Colin Mawani, you know, coming up against his parent club, who ditched him after 18 months. He hadn't scored in his first nine appearances for Spurs. So to get two goals in this game, especially the second one, I thought he took really well, was key.

26:42He assisted Richarlison's goal. So again, I think the big lesson that Thomas Frank should take from this is, yes, when we come up against Man City, PSG, Arsenal, maybe previously he's gone too defensive. I think this has shown that actually there's nothing wrong with having a go at them. You can have success. I mean, they did record a higher XG than PSG, but just when you've got someone like Vitinha, it just slightly unbalances those types of things. Yeah. Yeah, first hat-trick of his career that was, which is funny because at the weekend, Eberichie Eze got his first hat-trick of his career and they were both against Spurs.

27:14Yeah, someone was trying to find out after the game. I'm hoping producer Charlie might know, but when was the last time Spurs conceded hat-tricks in back-to-back games? Surely it's quite a rare event. Pressure's on now. Well, it can happen. You can lose 5-3 to the European champions, but by and large, this was a performance to draw many positives from for Spurs fans. Yeah, definitely. As you mentioned, Vitinha, those goals he scored were sensational. And Thomas Frank said afterwards, PSG already have one Ballon d 'Or winner and they've probably got the next one playing in midfield. When someone, especially that first strike, produces something like that, it's frustrating, but it's how football works sometimes.

27:51But I think Spurs, the youthful vigour, I mean, Lucas Bergwahl was excellent. His first performance since he suffered a concussion a couple of weeks ago, just before the international break. I think this was only actually Gray's fourth start of the season. they're both 19 years old spoke to Gray after the game actually and he played for Spurs mainly in defence last season but he prefers to play midfield and he actually did say that he got a lot of experience from last season but playing in midfield he's happy that he's doing that now and I just think that is sort of the foundation that Frank needs to use going forward but having said all that well done you've gone away to the European champions you've lost with dignity but the biggest test for this is his approach against Fulham on Saturday I did a quick poll on Twitter before the game said, you know, which win was more important or which game was more important, PSG or Fulham.

28:4090 % of people said it was Fulham. So well done against PSG. Some positives to take. But you now have to take this proactive approach against Fulham and get a victory at home. I think it'd be only their fourth victory in their last 21 games as they win on Saturday. That's where it all comes down to. Otherwise, the pressure is going to be right back on, Frank. Excellent. Jay, have a great trip home and we'll speak to you soon. Au revoir. Merci. Au revoir. Thanks, Jay. Jay Harris in Paris. Very good. The other games run through the results already. I mean, Real Madrid was bonkers. We talked yesterday about the reports of unrest at Real Madrid.

29:20Ill feeling between Vinny Jr. and apparently a coterie of other big names. But everybody, a lot happier, won the mansions after they survived their initial scare away in Perez and came away with a 4-3 win. Kylian Mbappe with all four goals for Real Madrid. Virginia and he combining brilliantly. He's now on 22 goals in 18 matches, which is pretty good. Pretty good. No Haaland, but it's decent, yeah. All right. Real Madrid face Manchester City next in two weeks' time, which will be an interesting one. Anyway, that's having stands after five rounds of the Champions League. Next up, let's get on to what awaits this weekend in the Premier League.

30:09This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. It's Premier League, match day 13, everyone. Five games on Saturday and five on Sunday, Liam. Perfectly balanced. Saturday things kick off with three games at three Brentford Burnley Sunderland Bournemouth and Manchester City against Leeds at 5.30 Everton will be hosting Newcastle at the Hill Dickinson and then at 8pm Spurs are up against Fulham in that key key test of Thomas Frank's new freewheeling philosophy Sunday the big match is Chelsea Arsenal at 4.30 but before that you've got Crystal Palace against Man United at 12 that sounds like fun and three games at the unusual time of five minutes past two.

30:57Not sure why this is. I think it's because to accommodate the 12 o 'clock, there being a 12 o 'clock game. Right. You'd imagine. Just move it a little bit later. A little bit later. So there's no risk of overlap. Why don't they move the one game at 12 to 11.55 and leave the two o 'clock? Not enough rest. Yeah, not enough rest from Strasbourg away. I'm not surprised they're playing that midday slot, Palace giving their away in Europe and an 8 o 'clock kickoff. Yeah, it does seem like that. I think we have seen teams, including Manchester United, demand to play on Sunday night at 7.30. Magnus. Anyway, those three games at five past two are West Ham-Liverpool, Aston Villa-Wolves.

31:35Anyone want to whistle for that one? Is it Derby? And Forrest Brighton. There you go. Quick recap on the situation after 12 rounds. Arsenal are six points clear of their hosts on Saturday. Chelsea, City lie third, seven points off the lead. And then you've got nine teams from Villa, who are now in fourth, down to Liverpool in 12th. Those nine teams separated by just three points. Our lead. At the other end, still only the two points for Wolves. Burnley are on 10 and Leeds on 11. They're now in the bottom three, along with the side from Molineux. Well, have we talked enough about Chelsea-Arsenal?

32:16Is that the big focal point for you this weekend, Liam? what's exciting you about match day 13? Yeah it's a pretty good game I think it's also much nicer that it's Chelsea v Arsenal and not the other way around I think Chelsea would be a good test good team at home and I think I mean I've had to spoke about it almost a bit of a cliche but kind of the thing of having those big games in succession that actually can almost be harder to then pick yourselves up and go again for the game three, four days later when you've expended so much I think one good thing from this midweek was it didn't feel like they kind of had a big emotional outpouring in the game, like it was giving everything.

32:49As I said, it was a good show of the squad depth as well. So providing that the injuries aren't too severe, I think that they're in a really good spot for a game like this. Excellent. Yeah, I mean, the main injury warrior now is Trossard, who went off yesterday and has been in such good form. I wanted to ask you to imagine, as a Brighton fan, did you foresee that he would get to this level? Because it feels like he's gone from a really good squad player for Arsenal to this season, just like going up another few levels. Yeah, I don't know if maybe quite this high, but kind of similar to what you're saying about Ivan Perisic being a little bit of a maverick or a slightly unicorn player, I think similar about Trossard.

33:28Yeah, very two-footed. I think he's got a really good eye for a pass, really creative. He's quite a small player, always quite diminutive. And I think he clearly never was kind of physically superior to younger players when he was growing up. So clearly just learned to be technically good because of that. I mean, there was a period where Graham Potter, probably his best Brighton team, He had Trossard playing wing-back in a back three slash back five. So he's always been really versatile. He's played through the middle at times to Brighton as well. Been real green. Yes, yeah, yeah. Just a nice bloke as well.

34:00Big fan of Lego, I think. Is he? Yeah, likes playing Lego. He's a missing piece for Arsenal, that's for sure. He's also... Brian were wrong to let go of him. I don't think they have much choice. But he was also a very early kind of ex-G man. When XG first emerged into the world in the early 2010s, he was at Genk. And I remember there were a lot of... It was when I worked for Optum, there were lots of like, oh, there's this guy at Genk called Leandro Trossard, he's over-performing as XG, when no one really knew what that meant. But he clearly has always had a lot of talent. And I think this season, I think it was after the Burnley win, when he kind of led the kind of huddle, I think.

34:39And I think he's really stepped up in sort of responsibilities this season. So yeah, it's slightly annoying. when he's for Arsenal that he's out injured now. Yeah. How long forward do we... We don't know. I mean, Arsene just said he felt something went off. I have to say, actually, I did... There were a few times before that, earlier on in the game, where I did think he wasn't moving quite right. So I was surprised he didn't go off sooner with this Chelsea game in mind. So many players coming back, though. Martellini, we mentioned, Maduecki, Odegaard coming back in as well. And, you know, they've still got Jokeres and Havertz and Jesus.

35:08They've got three strikers to come back. But I think that would be a big loss because I think Trossard as well has really helped this sort of Mikel Moreno thing, for that to work. Every other piece needs to kind of be perfect around it. And Trossard's so intelligent. He's really helped with that. But no, I think this game is so well set up. I mean, like you said, Jimbo, both of them beating European giants midweek. Chelsea, who in about mid-December last year, they were second, you know, or at least right with Arsenal in second. And there was the same kind of questions. Can they have, you know, can they really be contenders?

35:39this feels well set up for them to demonstrate whether they can actually challenge Arsenal this season or whether it's going to be another season where they're knocking around looking for a top four spot Man City looking to pick up some scraps perhaps they've got the easier looking fixture at home to Leeds who've lost their last three games five of their last six in fact Man City haven't although they are coming off that defeat to Newcastle Erling Haaland of course born in Leeds so this will be a special game for him as indeed it will be if he manages to get a goal because that will put him on 100 Premier League goals.

36:13He will beat Alan Shearer to 100 goals in terms of speed. Wow. Obviously City should be fresh as well after they rotated their entire team for the challenge of Bayer Leverkusen. Yeah, back-to-back defeats, of course, for Pep's side. All right. Sunday at 2 is the next chapter in Liverpool's dramatic campaign, the aforementioned trip to West Ham. The Hammers have won just one of their last 19 meetings with Liverpool in all competitions, but this does seem like a good opportunity for them to get a second one. Nuno with a good record against Liverpool. He's also picked up seven points from the last nine available with the Hammers.

36:52Back-to-back home wins. It's terrible timing for Liverpool that West Ham have been fairly abject for a lot of the season, had a managerial change, and have actually now kind of found some form, found a settled team, and found a good kind of base level of playing. I think if you're Liverpool, you're almost hoping for a team that you know you can completely put away, just a real kind of confidence booster. Does that team exist for Liverpool right now? I mean, I kind of feel that they're in one of those periods. They play at Molyneux. Well, tricky place to go, you know, when you're not winning games.

37:20I would just say on Liverpool, it is quite interesting. I mean, their last three games in which they've scored one and conceded 10, I think they've got a higher XG than their opponents in those three games combined. And if anyone is kind of interested or sceptical of XG, I mean, Liverpool are a really good illustration because earlier this season, they won their first five league games, but there was something very unconvincing about them. Every week we were saying, but the numbers were backing that up. Like their underlying numbers were really bad. And what, you know, the idea is that... Now the numbers aren't backing it up because the underlying numbers are really good.

37:51No, but they're not really... But there's variance. I mean, it's variance. If you're not going to keep winning every game if you're not creating as many chances of your opponents. Ditto, they're not going to keep losing these games. These are overall... So you're saying don't panic because the signs are there that they are getting into positions where they could... Yeah, well, I'd say they were nowhere near as good as they were early on. They're not quite as bad as the results are now. Overall, the results are probably fair. It's just weird. It's come in these two clusters of amazing results and terrible ones.

38:21But yes, I think they will start, you know, if they keep doing this, they will start winning games. Then you have to factor in confidence and general vibes and system. If there are faults, a run of successive defeats will start to widen those cracks. So true. I think, sorry, I don't want to labour the Eric Tenhall point from earlier, but there is something quite, I think, as a struggling manager, the London Stadium is maybe the worst ground to go to. Is it because of how big the technical area is that you can look very out on your own? Yeah, and there's something quite bleak about it. I think West Ham fans would probably agree with that as well.

39:04I mean, we should say it's quite different, the circumstance of Ten Hag. I mean, Ten Hag, I think, was on borrowed time by the time he went. You're pining for that. Slott, you know, he had that amazing first season, so I think has earned the right to a bit of grace in a way that I think Ten Hag was kind of the opposite. I think he was lucky to still be there by that point. 5 past 2 that game as is Aston Villa now in 4th place against Wolves extraordinary Villa were 18th in the table 7 games ago they're now 4th well to Charlie's point Villa are the kind of ex-G over performance are they? their numbers aren't great but they are picking off wins with long range goals and a few fortunate results here and there so again like we said they're 4th I don't think they're the 4th best team in the Premier League what about Wolves what are their underlying numbers Wolves underlying numbers are actually alright they are no way an 8 points adrift of everyone else team Wolves and yeah I still we know for a fact they're going to get more than 11 points Duncan knows that for a fact everybody else I suspect is more open to by March the 1st they'll have over 11 points ok but their problem is that yeah there's a lot of teams that could have more than 11 points yeah and I think it may be too much for Hans and Rob Edwards to turn around, but I think they're not as bad as people are saying.

40:30Remember, they nearly won at Spurs, they let in a last minute equaliser there, they've had other games, so they have been unlucky. It is hard to see that bottom three changing. I mean, obviously, we're 12 games in, but West Ham and Forest now seem to have sort themselves out a bit, and I don't see any of Fulham. Fulham just seem to win a game frequently enough just to drift I mean they've done okay for a team to start a huge amount of recruitment and backing there but yeah I think it's Fulham is that yes Fulham I think it's fairly cut away from probably Newcastle I mean if Newcastle can learn to not be abject away from home at least a few times a season they'll obviously be perfectly fine Brentford could get dragged I mean I'd say they've sort of overperformed maybe you know well just like I think they've been really really good maybe they get dragged into it I mean, the one that leaps up to me of being dragged in, and I don't like saying that because I don't want the three promoted teams to go down again, but it's Sunderland.

41:28There's no way. They're on 19 points already. They need theoretically points to double that. Let me introduce you to a little team called Blackpool FC, my friend, who began similarly and Hull around that time as well. What do you see in Sunderland to indicate they will be there is my question. I don't doubt there's exceptions to the rule. Them underlying numbers. Blackpool the season that Munoz was born, of course. Yeah. The Arsenal youngster. Yeah, yeah, exactly. His first memory. Oh, no, what? He would have been born late because he was December, wasn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was six months after that war renegade.

41:59He's been told Blackpool playing the Premier League and he just simply doesn't believe that. But Preston North hadn't won the league as well. Anyway, we digress. But Liam's question, I think, is a valid one. What do you see in some way? Their attacking numbers are pretty underwhelming. They've got a goalkeeper who's basically performing better than any other goal group in the league and has kept them in games, particularly like Palace game. Robin Bruce? Robin points. Well, yeah. Will the roof cave in? You wonder. I don't think they'll go down, but I do feel that they might finish 17th. They are hosting Bournemouth this weekend.

42:33Burnley in the bottom three are away at Brentford, who I don't think most people are too worried about, but we shall see. Burnley, by the way, have the lowest XG, the fewer shots and their goalkeeper Martin Dubravka has made the most saves in all the Premier League this season so to your point about Wolves there is a team that's performing even worse than them

42:58I'm calling it now Wolves are staying up alright

43:04so many interesting looking fixtures apart from those ones, Palace against Man United looks like a tasty one, Palace who haven't actually conceded a goal in their last four meetings with United but coming off that trip to face Liam Resenia's Strasbourg Thursday night hmm what do you think on that one it's probably again another real test for I think Amrum because it's the kind of game that United tend to struggle in where they have to dominate it's ironically the reverse thing that Palace have had where they've now gone to the Conference League and found our team sit back against us and we'll play back five and all of a sudden the way you then have to score goals and create chances changes an awful lot.

43:44I think we've seen United play up really well in a lot of big games at times. They've put together probably their best run of form under Amram all season in the past few games, past few weeks. But I think that's a real banana skin for them. I mean, I remember the fixture at Old Trafford last season where they were basically matched up shape-wise and Palace came out. Two new winners and just a much better team. so it's yeah maybe continuing to be kind of an audition for Glasner as well could he be a bigger club manager because Palace they look really good really solid under him and that's a Brighton fan saying that I mean it'd be nice for the travelling Man United fans to see a 3-4-3 in an operational state how many of the Man United fans will be travelling it's not 1996

44:34speaking of games from last season that bring back memories how about nottingham forest brighton liam do you know what that that game as bad as it looked as a as a scoreline um was actually the scoreline was seven it was it was bad it looks like a one no um that was a real turning point in brighton season actually they went on a really good run of form after that and then ended the season really really well and that was probably another game where i don't know if you ever do get a seven nil game but actually there were moments in that first half where you know brighton could have equalized and and just were fairly abject defensively, but it wasn't completely awful.

45:09That has been the one result that seemed to hang around Fabian Herzler, who I think has done a really, really good job. There was a great piece out on the site this week by Andy Naylor, our Brighton writer, and was saying that maybe he should get even more credit than De Zerbe had. In terms of he's at 50 Premier League games now, he's got more points from those than De Zerbe did. It's a lot more stable. It's a lot less sexy, attractive football all the time. It's not always intense kind of baiting the press. We're going to play through you. We're going to have our central midfielders on the edge of the box.

45:38And it's not always as aggressive a press. I think they're one of the best teams, you know, without the ball in the league this season in terms of how they can, you know, be aggressive. But it's a little bit more stable. They've changed the game really well. Keeps bringing on substitutes to score. Did it again with Jack Hinshaw at the weekend. So, yeah, that's definitely, I think, probably for him personally, a game that he'll want to have some better memories from. But I think since then they've kicked on and they were really, really good. Excellent. Forrest have kicked on since appointing their third manager of the season.

46:09Sean Dyche with back-to-back wins in the Premier League. One of the great things that Hutzler has done is get Danny Welbeck in a starting role. He's got seven goals in seven. Yeah, and a real nice range of finishes as well when you look at the goals that he scores. There's a great three-ball from Giorgio Ruter against Leeds, Ray Chips the keeper. An outstanding cross from Minta, where the ball's kind of dipping. I was at the game and where I was sat was kind of further up from where the TV cameras are. So I couldn't quite appreciate in real time. I could see the quality of the ball going. That's an amazing whipped cross in towards the back post.

46:42But kind of only when you see the reverse angle do you see as it's dropping the way he meets it. So, yeah, he's in the form of his career. He's basically on track, I think, to hit 15, 20 goals, the rate he's going at. Obviously, often the big question with him is kind of his fitness and availability. But I think he's playing more regularly than he ever has done. and that must also contribute to being in good scoring form, you know, carrying that through games. But I think he's got real good creativity around him. Look at the midfielders Brighton have. Georgie Ruter is a number 10. You know, it's really great at kind of slipping him in behind the defence.

47:13Minter gets into the box well, provides good crosses. Diego Gomez tends to be a bit of a threat from the left-hand side as well. So it's quite well set up for him, yeah, as well. All right, it should be a good game, that one. That's another of those five past two on the Sunday. Late game on Saturday is Spurs against Fulham. before that at 5.30 he got Everton against Newcastle again a very intriguing looking fixture Newcastle on the road with all sorts of problems beaten on Tuesday in Marseille Everton Duncan this man wrote a very good piece pointing at Liam about why Newcastle's away form is much worse than their home form and it's not just about passion is it not about passion?

47:52it's probably partly about passion I don't think Newcastle of all clubs or fan bases are ever going to lack for passion I think they're going to come out pretty good on that. No, they're always an interesting team at kind of how they defend. People will probably remember them a few years ago as being that ultra-aggressive pressing team, that 4-3-3 that was just, you know, any team that turned up at St. James' Park felt like they were just going to get, you know, Newcastle players just running at them for the whole game. They've been quite passive away from home and they tend to drop into this 4-5-1 where it's just a completely flat midfield five.

48:23And the problem then becomes as soon as they don't put pressure on the ball or whoever's got possession, that whole midfield can be taken out with one pass. There isn't kind of that Declan Rice or Moises Caicedo figure who sits a bit deeper that as soon as that pass goes into midfield, will shuffle left or right or jump in and really break up an attack. And I mean, the midfielders pick up silly yellow cards because often the balls can pass and they quickly have to recover and make a foul to stop an attack. All teams just kind of play through them. Villa did it a little bit earlier on in the season.

48:50You look at both the goals that Brighton scored in the win at the Amex, came from that kind of, looks almost like a goal from the 2010s because you go, well, teams have learned now how to be compact in defending that in that midfield block. So it's something that I'm kind of amazed how he continues to persist with it. He's been quite honest about their problems in terms of the away form. And yeah, it's just something that no one else seems to defend that way. And I think that's why it's just, it's almost a bit too hard to sit there and be passive without kind of having players engage the guy with possession.

49:18I remember the 2010s a lot worse than you do. What kind of goal exactly, what kind of defending are we talking about there? It's just kind of being a little bit more open not quite as compact and you think now for instance you think of like Arsenal as a really great example of a team out of possession that when was the last time you saw a team play a through ball and split Arsenal apart completely that one I think players are a lot more athletic now so if those passes do happen they can recover or as we're talking about goalkeepers in the current or post-Mamuano era that can come out from their goal and sweep up so I think teams have become a little bit more collective in that and better kind of at that block defending Forest are probably another great example from last year of teams where you just go well you can only get at them kind of around the sides or through crosses and I just don't see that with Newcastle currently alright we'll see if they fare any better in their trip to the Hill Dickinson as long as Everton don't start fighting each other I fancy the toffees for this one yeah they're on back-to-back wins and back-to-back clean sheets Everton looking good they're currently 11th part of that glut of teams for whom a victory could see them rocket into the top four.

50:29Madness, madness. And very exciting. We'll return on Sunday night to round up all the action from Premier League match day 13. But that is it for today's Totally Football Show. So many thanks, Charlie, for being with us. Thank you. To Duncan and Liam, Jake and Charlie in the booth. To Jay and Andy, who joined us earlier on. and you listener. There's no totally extra this week but there are loads of ones in the back catalogue. If you haven't heard our exploration of Roy Hodgson's golden years at Fulham or the madness that was the Curbs, Tevis, West Ham, the Biscuit Man and all that and so many other great stories then go back and have a look.

51:14Anyway, have a great weekend whatever it is you're doing and we'll speak to you hopefully on Sunday night for now from all of us here. It's goodbye.

51:23you've been listening to the totally football show part of the athletic fc podcast network we're also at the totally football show on insta and at the totally show on youtube the totally football show is an athletic media company production

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