Chelsea’s winning start and Liverpool’s significant summer business

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2:25The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

2:35Totally for Busho. Today, Club World Cup special. WTF in Cincinnati with Auckland Raiders Bayern scoring 10 while PSG also run riot in California we round up all the news so far from the De Lape debut for Chelsea to the blistering Bocca Benfica battle plus elsewhere we hear why Florian Wurtz means fire Wurtz on Merseyside what's going on at Wednesday and why Italy's divorce has just seen them go to Reno it's the Totally Football Show

3:09And it's Tuesday the 17th of June, listener, as we join you from disparate positions around the planet. Daniel Story, for example. Daniel Story, hello, where are you? I'm in sunny Remster, Nottinghamshire. James, good day to you. Good day to you too, sir. Matt Davis Adams, perhaps not that far away from Daniel? Yeah, I was just going to Google it. I would suggest probably half an hour, door to door, as the crow flies. Right. 14 miles, to be precise. Do you know where Daniel lives? He does now, and so does everybody else. And Seb, staff are blors, safely tucked away in handboot. Yeah, I'm further away.

3:47Is it awkward that you two don't know the way to each other's houses? It feels like you should be friends in real life. Well, you know what, right? Actually, strangely enough, about a year ago, I was driving back from somewhere, and I must have gone through Remston, because I drove past Daniel Story on the phone, laughing his head off, and I said to my wife, that's Daniel's story. And she said, I don't know who that is. And we carried on driving and I explained who he was and she said, oh, that's a coincidence. But yeah, it's very strange to see somebody out of context. I remember that day. I was listening to the Totally Show.

4:22There you go. Listener, where are you? Is it nice there? Good. I've been in a kind of special place called the Club World Cup over the last few days. and a lot of things were said before the tournament kicked off. It's a World Cup tournament of a variety. So, you know, there's goods and less goods. But particularly the two games we had, I don't know if you caught either of them late, late on Monday. You tuned in for those expecting a glorified exhibition tourney. Boom, they were proper World Cup action. See any of that said? Yeah, I did. I saw Bocca against Benfica, James. and it was kind of like a it was a little bit of an antidote to everything I'd seen up until that point because I think when you when you consider what continental football could look like at its very very best intercontinental football you kind of think of loud febrile atmospheres dueling cultures a little bit of tension which we certainly got in the Boca game and it was great because both sets of fans were really into it Boca fans of course and I can't explain this but I think everybody here will agree with me that you're going to watch Boca Juniors aren't you because you just so rarely get the opportunity to do that and they're surrounded by such mystique and romanticism and and yeah I wasn't let down I'm not sure that's kind of going to be the pattern going forward I think they're going to be the exception rather than the rule but it was certainly nice given it moved me a little bit which is more than the rest of the tournament I've done so far it moved James Horncastle a lot he was loving up Boca Juniors on theathletic.com this Tuesday morning.

5:57On Monday, Boca took Miami Beach. They lit fireworks on uncork flares. Plumes of yellow and blue smoke twirled into the sky, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it was a terrific game, that. Four goals, three red cards, all sorts of stuff. We'll get onto that perhaps a little bit later. But loads of Club World Cup business to decide. Loads of off-the-field business as well with your Florian Vertzes and Thomas Franks and big news potentially involving Nottingham Forest and that kind of thing. today. But let's kick off with Monday's action in Atlanta as Chelsea began their world title campaign against LAFC.

6:34This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network.

6:42Curling it in beautifully. That'll do. Look who's arriving from midfield. That lovely number eight habit in a Chelsea shirt. These days it's Enzo Fernandes. And equally lovely, the debutant Liam Delap with a delicious assist for that second Chelsea goal, to the delight of the three men and a dog in the Mercedes-Benz Stadium at three o 'clock or four o 'clock on a Monday afternoon. Crikey. The people who were there saw some very nice goals between that and the netto chop, Matt Davis-Adams. What did you think of Chelsea's performance? I thought it was very patchy, to be honest. I thought there were some things that they did pretty well and some things that they did pretty poorly.

7:24I think a better team would have scored a couple of goals against them. But I think they found themselves in a position whereby they clearly didn't need to go full throttle to beat LAFC. I think probably the surroundings did play a part in making it all feel a little bit strange. But very interesting that Enzo Mareska picked what I would suggest would be his first choice, 11, for the first game. And clearly he's thinking, win these first two, and then maybe we can do a bit of rotation for the final game against Esperanza to Nis. Where that leaves Enzo Fernandes, score of that goal we heard, I'm not so sure.

7:59I think that that's something that we've been ruminating on on Straight Out Com, the Athletics Chelsea podcast for a while, as to if Romeo Lavia can ever maintain an extended period of fitness. Where does that leave Enzo Fernandes fitting into the team? But he comes on and makes his case as to why he should be involved pretty regularly. I also thought you mentioned De Lapp. I think that the performance of Nicholas Jackson was improved by De Lapp's very presence. I thought he was unlucky not to score and then it was his assist for Neto's goal as well. But yeah, it's kind of tough to read much into it, isn't it?

8:32Because they're playing not even one of the best teams in MLS. So how much credit should we give Chelsea for beating them? I'm not sure, but they got the job done. Obviously, the game was played in a climate-controlled stadium, So it wasn't like a PSG Atletico type thing where they've expended a load of energy. They are lucky in the fact that their final two group games are both taking place in Philadelphia, a stone's throw from where they're training. So they're not going to have to be crossing from East Coast to West Coast and doing these extended trips to get to games. I think they are in a pretty good position to obviously to go through.

9:08And then from there, we shall see. But yeah, I think this was a fairly promising result. Goal, some nice goals, lots to pick out in the performance, but maybe you'd expect that after they haven't played for a couple of weeks. I mean, it was a gorgeous assist from Dilap, who has that in his locker. Benetto Chop, though, oh my word, Ryan Hotdog Hollingshead still sliding his way towards the touchline as we speak. Yeah, it was one of those where if you had your time again, you'd keep your head down as a defender, wouldn't you? You'd go, well, he's done me, somebody else is going to have to deal with this because I'm not going to try and get back.

9:42I mean, bless him for trying it. But yeah, he looked like a man trying to climb out of quicksand as his arm sort of slips under the surface. Yeah, it was really good from Neto, who is probably the Chelsea player, I think, who over the second half of last season, Matt will tell me if I'm wrong, advanced his case the most. He was kind of forced to play as a striker, central striker, when Jackson got suspended. And he probably has got that left-sided role down now. we know that Chelsea have lots of wide players we know that they're also looking at more wide players there's talk of Leon Winger coming in as well so they will buy again but I guess Neto is the one who's got that wing space confirmed Matt am I right?

10:24Yeah I think what he did was prove to be durable and reliable which is the things that have dogged him throughout his career up until this point he was available for pretty much the entire season so not just playing in a position that he wasn't favoured in but showing that he could be counted on to be available more often than not. And kind of in stark contrast with Nani Maduake in this game in particular, I think he really looked like he'd struggled. But Neto had obviously gone all the way to the final of the Nations League. So I think he was probably in perfect shape to play the game. But yeah, at the moment, he looks like a starter.

10:56But as Daniel says, there's supposed to be more incomings in his position. So we shall see. and you can buy players, right, and register them for the latter stages of the Club World Cup. So who knows, he might even find himself out of the team by the end of the tournament. Remarkable. You mentioned Enzo Fernandes and his position in the team. He scored in the Conference League final, scored in this as well, but not definitely part of Chelsea's future. Is that right? Well, look, Chelsea are going to have a lot more games next season than they had this season because of their participation in the Champions League, which obviously carries an extra two.

11:31they and Manchester City are going to go into the start of the Premier League season massively undercooked because of their participation in this tournament so there's going to be lots of minutes to go around for everybody but Enzo Fernandes' problem is that he's got Cole Palmer in his way in one of the positions that he wants to play and the blend that Lavia and Caicedo gives you is sort of irresistible you know, Lavia's progressive passing is a joy to watch and Caicedo is Caicedo best in his position certainly in the Premier League possibly even wider than that So it's difficult to see how he gets a regular start in either the number 10 position or a bit further back.

12:05But obviously, he's a player, as we're seeing, who seems to be getting better and better during his time as a Chelsea player. How happy he's going to be not starting every week, I'm not sure. But, you know, often when he does start, he's captain. So it's a quandary for Enzo Maresco, that's for sure. But again, it comes back to relying on Romeo Lavia, continuing to be fit. And that's not something that we've been able to bank on in the time that he's been at Chelsea. Other quandaries from Mariska include the defensive slopiness which could have seen LAFC potentially equalise in the second half of this game Would a better opponent have punished them?

12:37We might find that out, I think on Friday, is it, when Chelsea have their next game That's against Flamengo, currently the number one side in Brazil Three-time South American champion, one-time world champion and they've got their latest world campaign underway late, late, late on Monday against Esperance of Tunis. I'm going to guess that since this actually kicked off at 2am, none of you saw it, but I was there. So I can tell you that it was a fine 2-0 victory for Flamengo. It looked like they have a lot more in their locker. A couple of beautiful goals and very nice movement. And most of it orchestrated by a player who Chelsea know so very well, Jorginho.

13:18Yeah, I mean, I watched the highlights of the game this morning as we record. And I think it's fair to say after the first round of games, kind of hot take time, that we know that European teams are going to be the strongest. Before the tournament started, they were the top eight favourites for the tournament were all European teams, down to Dortmund in eighth. And then it becomes pretty clear that South America is going to have a significant advantage over everybody else in the world. There is a real hierarchical order that I think we're already seeing, which is exactly what we expected. and the positive spin on that is that we've seen the elements from Palmeiras, from Flamengo, from Botafogo, from Boca that they're the things we wanted to find from South American teams.

14:03We didn't want them to try and play deep defensive football to try and stymie the Europeans. We wanted them to give it a go and make the most of the opportunity and I think we've pretty much seen that. Nowhere more so than in Boca's performance against Benfica which perhaps we'll get on to in a roundabout of the Club World Cup action next.

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16:42This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli K, and the very best football writers around.

17:06What else has happened in these opening three days of the Club World Cup? You had Bayern beating Oceana's 11-10-0. That was pretty remarkable from every point of view. Paris Saint-Germain doing Paris Saint-Germain things. Word or two more about Bocca Benfica, though, on Monday, Seb. I loved Herrera picking up the red card for attempting to assault the referee as he went at the VAR station. Yeah, it's extraordinary. It's extraordinary. And listen, I'm not condoning what Ander Herrera did, but you could almost say something that the tournament needed because it was kind of a very profound indication that it mattered to somebody and I'm not trying to be snarky but I've wanted to get into the tournament and I want it to take me and to absorb me all these kind of things but I found it very very difficult to pay attention this was probably the first game that has that's actually really really held my attention for 90 minutes and there was this lovely animosity to it there's just a malignancy to the whole game and i didn't actually know and herrera was playing for bocca juniors until well not until that moment but around about that moment and to think this is perfect he's like in the same way that kind of fifa tried to drop lionel messian into miami into the tournament to kind of boost sales it feels like herrera has just been parachuted in to kind of just to bring a bit of passion a bit of heart to see everything that we're watching but there's a broader point here right which is that it feels like and this is a mistake that stakeholders make a lot I think in football is that the game doesn't speak for itself right you can't just boil it down to its constituent parts 11 players on each side and a ball throw onto a pitch and it sells itself because it doesn't you need all the framework you need all the context and you need as a viewer particularly at that time of night you need to feel like everybody's into it otherwise you're thinking oh I've got work tomorrow I've got to be up quite early podcast um you know what am I doing with my life because there have been games during this tournament where the stadiums have been so quiet that i can hear individual conversations around the commentary box and it's it's kind of when you see the gaudy trophy and the massive stadium and the millions and millions and millions of dollars that have been spent on promotion and what we'll broadly call hubris um that kind of belittles the occasion and makes you kind of evaluate how you're spending your time but this was this was kind of no i'm glad i stayed up i'm glad i'll be kind of 60 tomorrow and i'll need five coffees this made it worthwhile and it was a great game great this game didn't provoke an existential crisis in hamburg and grabbing you from the start particularly that opening goal was absolutely beautiful lataro blanco with a nutmeg then setting up a merengiel with whom i wasn't particularly familiar who did he not backheel flick past the benfica keeper yeah it looked that way i'm not quite sure of the intent and the purity of the contact but it did seem that way i was particularly impressed because one of the themes during these games as well has been the pitches are very dry they're very hard um there's been a little bit of discussion about a quote-unquote hard grass i don't know what that means but difficulty with football hard grass doesn't sound like something you'd want on a football pitch you want slick soft grass um and so the quality of the attacking work and the speed of the attacking work particularly in the first half is really really good bockers next game with their huge following there in the united states will see them take on Bayern Munich, which could be quite a match-up.

20:27Bayern, who earned lots of headlines for their victory on Sunday against Auckland City FC. Lots have been said about this game, but the fundamental thing is we finally saw somebody score big in the first half and then go all the way to double figures. Yeah, although they threatened not to. It was six and a half time and then I think it was sort of 66 or 67 minutes that Bayern scored the seventh. And then I think at that point it felt obliged to carry on a little bit. They also brought on Jamal Musiala, who scored a hat-trick within about 15 minutes of coming on. I mean, yeah, obviously Bayern were incredibly dominant.

21:04Obviously, the game was not competitive in any way because Auckland City are... I mean, they are literally an amateur team. They get crowds of between 100 and 150 back home. They'd have enjoyed Atlanta. Yeah, I mean, I hope they had a good time because they were using their annual leave, by the sound of it, to do so so I hope they really kind of you know kill two birds with one stone by having a couple of decent nights out um look it sounds like everybody's had a great time and there's no way of saying that without it sounding incredibly patronizing because we're also talking about Bayern Munich playing against them but I think they did pretty well to keep it to 10 I know that was in part controlled by Bayern Munich very much taking their foot off the gas but yeah I think they did pretty well well they took off two of the key plays in Michael Olisse and Kingsley command and that's when things slowed down after that swashbuckling first half intriguingly the 6-0 at halftime didn't include any goals from Harry Kane and it was when he went off for Jamal Musiala that then things kicked up again and Musiala ended up with a hat-trick about 20 minutes Lacer said yeah there's a broad point here James I interviewed some of the Auckland City players before the tournament started just to find out about their lives and their journey journey to the tournament and through football over the last decade and some of them have been through some some really trying experiences to get here I thought firstly like they did pretty well like forget the scoreline I think given that they are an amateur team given the challenges they face to keep it to to 10 as Dan says was was admirable as silly as that sounds the other thing to say is that I I spoke to a couple of people in the camp the day after I just want to see how people were doing and one of the things they said is that um they were glad that kind of Bayern gave them everything they had they didn't want to be patronized they didn't want kind of uh ostensible substitutions that weaken their sides you know playing goalkeepers up front that kind of nonsense they said we you know that they they were grateful for that and I think in the days after it's been quite tough for some of them because um social media commentary being what it is and the need for kind of attention grabbing comments and uh and hot takes um you know they've been ridiculed a bit and they've been they found themselves at the the center of a conversation about whether they belong which is a legitimate conversation it just it's unfortunate that has to happen to these people because they've gone they've done their best they've trained ever so hard yeah dan's right they've taken annual leave a couple of them have had to miss the tournament because they don't have enough annual leave and that because they're not able to take the time off work um a few of them have taken unpaid leave to be here so the sacrifices are great and um you know there was certainly some trepidation going into this about what might happen against a team of by meaning its strength and quality and um yeah but i i don't think any of them did themselves an injustice their goalkeeper was absolutely superb i thought um and there's some really solid performance in front of him so i think once the the heat dies away from the situation i think well hopefully i'm hoping some of them are able to look back on it with with fond memories and not just for social reasons, but for footballing ones too.

24:03Maybe some happy news in their next two games. Next up, they're up against Benfica. 10-0 is the biggest scoreline that there's ever been at the Club World Cup or previous iteration, the Intercontinental Cup. Wasn't the biggest marker, though, perhaps, laid down in the opening games here? That belongs to Paris Saint-Germain, who picked up where they left off from a couple of weeks ago in the Champions League final. They did Inter 5-0 that night. They did Atletico Madrid 4-0 here, although Alexander Solos' chance to pull one back for Atletico was a colossal one. But that's two of the most defensively resolute outfits in Europe.

24:43Dispatch 0-0 across the two matches. What does that tell us about PSG and your chances of keeping a low block against them? I think it says that when we've heard a lot going at this tournament about player fatigue and overload, I think what it shows is that when you are playing football that players love playing and when you're winning games by handsome margins, that tiredness, certainly the mental tiredness, dissipates pretty quickly. And you just kind of get on with it and you play on instinct and you play on autopilot. And PSG's autopilot at the moment is brilliant attacking football. I don't think it was quite a 4-0 game.

25:21I mean, once Clermont Longley got his second yellow card at 2-0, it did feel like Atletico sort of realised that the game was up and slightly gave up a little bit. The penalty was obviously really late on for a handball from about a yard away, even though his hands were up. But yeah, I don't think it was quite a 4-0 game. And actually the second goal, as brilliant as it was from Vittinia, kind of opening his body up finish, came pretty much seconds after Atletico would have thought that they'd scored an equaliser. and that was the game's defining moment really. But there's just something about PSG that when the parts seem to click quicker than any other team in Europe at the moment and I include any Premier League team in that, everybody seems to know where everybody else is going to be.

26:04We talked about it after the Champions League final with the Dembele backheels and the Douay flicks and it does just feel like they're still in that exact mode. It's like they woke up the day after the Champions League final and went, yeah, we can still play again. Playing with that Dembele in this game, the goals from. Fabian Ruiz, Vicinha as you mentioned, Maialu who also scored in the Champions League final and then Lee came in with a penalty in the 97th minute. A couple of assists from Kvala Schellia as well. Next up for Paris Saint-Germain yikes, it's Seattle Sounders at the Seattle Sounders home ground Lumenfield in Seattle.

26:39Possibly you saw Matt Davis Adams Seattle Sounders first game of the tournament which saw them take on Botafogo because there's a couple of Botafogo players who you might be seeing a lot more of. Yeah, these players that have been linked with Forest for a long time, Jair Künj and Igor Jesus, the goal scorers, there's got to be a reason, I mean, presumably they want to play in the Club World Cup and that's why they're not coming to Forest yet. I'm slightly concerned that they're going to arrive absolutely exhausted and not be in a particularly good condition to hit the ground running and you'd certainly expect Igor Jesus to be involved pretty heavily from the off.

27:15But yeah, I mean, his goal was taken really nicely, so fingers crossed they'll be they'll be ready to to tear up the Europa League in a couple of months time their moves subject of some some controversy in France let keep speculating on the nature of the relationship between Marienakis of Noddington Forest and and the Botafogo owner who is our friend John Texter who also owns Lyon who as you probably know are currently facing potential relegation to the second division in France, over their financial imbalances. They have a hearing on June the 24th. The French authorities have been very clear that they can't generate money just by shifting it across from Textos' other clubs like, well, Palace a bit, but mostly Botafogo.

28:02It has to be from player sales. Supposedly there's a triangle of interest that could just see Lyon out of this problem. Yeah, I mean, last summer, Forrest sold Ono Angala and Moussa Niakate for a combined around 60 million euros to Lyon, which Forrest fans were delighted with. Both were not fringe players, but both were probably not. Niakate was probably a guaranteed starter, Mangala wasn't. Mangala then got loaned to spend most of the season on loan at Everton anyway. so that worked out well there is reports this summer of Lyon paying£8 million for Matt Turner who would probably be Forrest's third choice goalkeeper Forrest sold their third choice goalkeeper last summer to Newcastle for£20 million so if that's the market maybe£8 million is a snip but I can see why people might be slightly cynical about that but yeah I have to say I don't really get if there was a relationship I don't really get what's in it for Lyon at the moment The rumoured fees for the Botafogo players seem perfectly reasonable.

29:07I mean, Igor Jesus is a Brazilian international. Jaikuno is a very promising, very tall centre-back. And there's also the left-back as well, who is kind of tipped to make Brazil squads sooner rather than later. And the combined fees are going to be somewhere in the region of£20-25 million, we think. So that seems about right. I don't think there's anything necessarily to read in that. Forest have bought extensively in Brazil before with Danilo and with Murillo. Murillo incredibly successfully. So it's a market they like. It's a market their scouts have liked for two years now. So I think that's all pretty much normal and pretty good business from everybody.

29:46As Seb kind of alludes to, it's the fact that these multi-club models exist that means you are tempted to become a kind of quasi-conspiracy theorist every time there's a football transfer because you're like, yeah, but why? Why are they doing that? Why is this happening? Who benefits most? And that's, you know, once you allow multi-club ownership, you find a mess as Crystal Palace and John Texter are learning at the moment. Indeed. Well, actually on that subject, should we just mention the news about UEFA and their upcoming decision about whether Palace, one of Texter's portfolio, can play in the Europa League next season?

30:22The issue here is that he owns 43 % of Palace and 77 % of Lyon, and they're also in the Europa League. Yeah. Can the two clubs both feature in the tournament? Well, Irish Cup winners Drogida United were expelled from the Conference League last week because they are owned by a US-based group which also own another Conference League side, Sülkenborg of Denmark. So for all the talk of there being alliances between Marianakis and Texter, that's certainly one potential battleground because Forrest would benefit if Pan-Less didn't get into the Europa League because I think they'd get bumped up into that competition.

31:00Forrest, of course, a long way from being part of any multi-club ownership model. Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, yeah, Maranac has owned Olympiacos before he owned Forrest. He has since bought Rio Hava in Portugal as well. They're under the stable. There's, you know, player, for example, Jonathan Panso, spent last season on loan from Forrest to Rio Hava. That deal will be made permanent. I mean, this is happening all over the shop now. You look at Brighton have had one, Leicester have had one. It is everywhere. It started when Seb's neck of the woods, quite a long way east of Seb, but that neck of the woods with the Leipzig model and the Red Bull ownership.

31:38I'm closer to you than I am to Leipzig. But, yeah, I mean, I think the Palace situation is slightly different from the Torello group. The issue there was that they missed the deadline for, how shall I say it, tweaking the ownership so that it technically wasn't a multi-club model for a period of time. The Palace argument, and I think is a strong one, and I think, and also even though this is Forrest, I hope it is successful, is that John Textor doesn't have a controlling interest in Palace. He has a percentage, but it's not a controlling share. So that would be their argument that they are a separate case.

32:16and I think that UEFA will go with it. I think it almost kicks up too much of a stink if this just starts happening. I mean, my personal view is that multi-club models shouldn't be allowed and that would be really easy, but I suspect Pandora is not for closing that box. Well, fingers crossed for Palace. Man City will be starting their Club World Cup campaign on Wednesday. Man City, the reigning world champions, will be up against Wydad Casablanca, the club not the Christmas telly debate. Ha ha ha ha ha. In the meantime, their rivals in the Premier League have been busy. And we'll get on to what they've been up to next.

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34:59This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network. Yeah, Mad City getting things underway in the States on Wednesday. Wednesday. A new look line-up potentially for them. Moina Ahmed writes in saying City now have reindeers and line-deers. Pep and Pep. Ryan and Ryan. Nico and Nick and Guardiola and Guardiola. Could be plenty of confusion there. A bit like that time, Matt, that you went on the Forest Focus podcast. Yeah, hosted by Matt Davis, who looks like a slightly younger version of me, apparently, according to members of my own family. But yeah, we managed to get around that.

35:36as well as younger, better version of you. Yeah, I think that's fair to say. Yeah, this is fun. Yeah. Anyway, Man City, they've made some interesting signings, haven't they? They certainly have. And they're not the only ones, Matt, because while they're off in the States, Liverpool have gone and finalised the Florian Wurtz move by Leverkusen. And also Spurs, very much one of Liverpool's rivals next season, have confirmed the signing of Thomas Frank as their new manager. Both moves happening a few days ago, but since our last show, the frank news came on Thursday and it was Friday for Florian. Let's talk a little bit about Florian Wurz more.

36:18I said you've told us a lot about him and it is a huge fee, structured in an excitingly modern fashion, but he's absolutely worth it. you've confirmed on a number of occasions, not least because I read only Mo Salah had more assists than Wirtz over the last two seasons. And now both those players are going to be lining up for the same for the same outfit. Yeah, and I think it's really exciting for that reason, Jimbo. A lot of Wirtz's success at Leverkusen also was to influence the careers of some of the players around him. for instance i think that the effect in a kind of secondary way on alex grimaldo jeremy fringpong uh patrick schick and victor boniface like players like that you know he's someone who sees all the attacking parts around him and is able to utilize them in the best possible way chance creation is fantastic the thing the simple thing that the tldr version of this is vids is someone who tries to influence a game in the attacking sense every time he touches the ball has this wonderful ambition not in a kind of reckless way he's not someone's going to give the ball away on the end of his own penalty box because decision making is excellent but his instinct is always to go forward he's very optimistic with the ball um and certainly when you add not just Mo Salah but Diego Jota Cody Jack Poe those kind of players Zoboslai will probably benefit from playing not quite sure in what sort of formation but alongside him roughly um I can't see a downside to this I think he's a wonderful wonderful player and I can't wait to see what happens next one of the things gets mentioned about him is um you know that age-old refrain about will he be able to cope with the physicality of the Premier League fair question because he's not the biggest player but also it's worth remembering Viet's spent most of his youth career playing above his age group um being kind of one of the smaller players on the pitch he's also someone that's very happy taking physical contact because you know he's been playing in a league where for a lot of the players he faces one of the options one of the only options, kick him, just kick him.

38:15And he takes a lot of punishment. He gets fouled a lot and he has to deal with that. And I think, you know, it's something he's prepared for. It's not as if he hasn't encountered that to this point in his career. So I've got no reservations about him and the fee either. Is this a Premier League paradigm shifting transfer? And it's not the only one Liverpool are making. Jeremy Fringpong also coming in from Bayern. Leverkusen have got the goalkeeper, Mamadash Fili, who was so excellent at the Euros last year. He's finally arriving. Kirkus from Bournemouth. Possibly Kirkus on the way as well. Are Liverpool, who finished 10 points clear of Arsenal just a month or so ago, and 13 of Man City, they're significantly better for the next campaign?

38:56Yeah, I think so. I think they learned from last time that there's a need to invest while you are on top. I think almost they had to make both decisions at once in that they had to sort out the contract issues. And I think that's pretty much happened in a way that everybody thought it would with Virgil van Dijk staying and Mohamed Salah staying. But if you're committing that much money to older players, you also have to be successful now or keep being successful now. There's no point Mohamed Salah and Virgil van Dijk being there on huge wages into their mid-30s if you're simultaneously trying to effect to rebuild below them or around them.

39:39So you have to invest in the now. And when you pay£100 million for a player, you are investing in the now. You're saying he is going to be our ready-made replacement. We're not buying a young left-back and hoping to have him two years, maybe one out on loan, then a bit of rotation in the Champions League. And then he's our starter in 2027, 2028. They haven't got the time to do that. This is the Liverpool of now. And they are trying to create a little mini dynasty now in which the talent of Van Dijk and Salah stays so high and is joined by talent around them that they try and win two or three titles in a row.

40:16That's clearly their aim. It does create a slight issue further down the line, I think, maybe when you've spent a lot of money up front and those players eventually leave. But it's a heck of a good problem to have if you're working out what happens after you've won three Premier League titles in a row. And obviously Liverpool have never done that. are they going to have to sell over the next couple of months to finance this? I think the information is that there are certain attackers who would be available for the right price. Darwin Nunez is clearly one of them. I think Luis Diaz or Jota, one of those two, is probably another.

40:51We hear that there's going to be interest in Andy Robertson, which makes complete sense if they're buying Kerkhez. They've already sold Kelleher. Yes, I think they would like to sell. the kind of yeah the elephant in the room here is the Saudi Pro League transfer window because if you can get a fee for Nunes or Diaz that allows you to only have to sell one of the highest value assets that won't get into their first choice team then they would be stupid not to and Liverpool aren't stupid I think also they'll get a good fee for Gerald Quencer who is certainly of interest to buy Leverkusen whether they go as far to match Liverpool's asking price for him which I think is around€40 million which would be a Leverkusen club record I don't know but there's value I think there's an interesting point here as well and that what Liverpool have been smart in doing is they haven't waited for this team to disband before building a new one so this comes in and of course his fee puts him on center stage at the same time he's still playing in a team which is kind of which has as its tenants Mohamed Salah Virgil Van Dijk Alisson like these are players that have won an awful lot in the game and so you don't immediately have that situation where new player new country uh premier league record fee all of a sudden this is your team here are the keys you go and decide whether we win games or not which is i think like there are harder questions down the track about who leaves and when who gets big contracts of course there are but at the same time it's like that soft landing and i think as well it's important for someone like jeremy fringpong because fringpong i think fringpong has a harder task than vietz in many ways because he's such a different player to alexander arnold his distribution is not similar in any way his traits on the pitch his patterns of movement are very different so he kind of has to adapt himself around Liverpool or vice versa and that's the kind of change over the sort of era transition that I think it's a lot easier for that to happen when you have these these kind of broad-shouldered players all around you in the rest of the side and when you're coming off a championship because that could be very very difficult otherwise so I think the timing of it is really good like to spend yeah from a position of strength but but also demographically in terms of where different members of that squad are.

42:58Matt, 13 points between Liverpool and Man City last season. City with the signings that we kind of touched on there, Gianni Reindeers, Ryan Ike-Nori, the other ones, and also Rodri, who's like a new signing, of course. Who would you rather have? Who do you rate more? The new Liverpool squad or the tweaked Man City squad? I would say probably the Liverpool squad, because of what we were talking about there, in that they're evolving. They're not trying to do it all in one hit, which is what Manchester City kind of forced themselves into in January. And now they've been left with people like Nico Gonzalez, for example, not sure where he fits in now.

43:36So I think, as Daniel said, you want to be improving from a position of strength. And, you know, to bring it back to the Club World Cup, the big advantage that Liverpool have got is that they are not in it. So they're going to have, you know, Florian Wurtz is going to be warming up for his Liverpool career, playing in a series of sponsored cups. and various random friendlies rather than playing in the Club World Cup. And that's going to be a benefit to him. It feels like they're doing it because they can rather than because they desperately need to, which is probably a good thing. And it's, yeah, second season for slot.

44:10There's no kind of big change behind the scenes like there has been at Manchester City. It feels like a real revolution at City, doesn't it? And then obviously they've got Pep Linders, who is the former number two to Jurgen Klopp having come in there. So that's an interesting dynamic in and of itself. I'll just say that Liverpool feels a bit more stable with their change in cities, which is pretty drastic and quite risky, I'd suggest. Well, plenty of time before the new season gets underway for the picture to change in all sorts of nuanced ways. Meanwhile, this Spurs move, Antonio Conte, Jose Mourinho, Mauricio Pochettino, Tim Sherwoods, They've all come and gone at Tottenham Hotspur without producing the turnaround that fans had dreamed of.

44:56Thomas Frank, the latest man to try. 13th permanent appointment at Spurs by Daniel Levy. Producer Charlie pointing out this is Ange replaced by Frank. Queen Vic vibes. Don't understand that. Perhaps you do. But the odds-on favourite over at Brentford to replace Frank is Keith Andrews, the Brentford set-piece coach and possibly lover of peaches. I don't know. That's quite exciting, isn't it, as a development from forward-thinking Brentford? It's the next evolution of football, isn't it? We knew this when Nicholas Jova got his own mural that this was inevitable. It feels like a massive, massive risk for Brentford if they do that, personally.

45:38I think you're taking somebody who's not been a number one yet and putting them into a Premier League side that's just been gutted from most of its backroom staff. It's going to lose at least one of its star players. If I was one of the three promoted clubs, I'd be feeling pretty good about Brentford appointing Keith Andrews personally. But, you know, it worked for them before, didn't it? Promoted a coaching staff member in Thomas Frank. And it's a very obviously well set up club with a very defined way that it wants to play and run itself. So I guess that it should be, in theory, quite easy to slot into.

46:10but yeah I'd be pretty concerned actually if I was a Brentford fan about where things are going to go next season Yeah I do wonder if I hope they at least look at external candidates and Kieran McKenna is a very obvious shout here he's the second favourite at the moment he was the name that immediately jumped to mind when I heard that Frank was leaving I think I agree with Matt completely it's a huge ask for Andrews if there are doubts about inexperience then they are magnetised and multiplied when you get into a Premier League scenario, particularly if you start slowly. We've seen it time and time before.

46:45He would at least, I suppose, get pre-season, which is unusual for that type of manager. Generally, they are replacing someone being sacked in mid-season or being poached in mid-season. But yes, I think it would be a huge step up. I remember watching Brentford in the first round of the EFL Cup last season. They were at Colchester and someone walked onto the pitch and I was like, I recognise that guy. who is that guy in a Brentford track suit? And then Keith Andrews started lobbing balls and talking about corners and throw-ins and I looked it up and was like, that's Keith Andrews, that's who that is.

47:19And yeah, if you'd have said then that he might actually get the Brentford first team job as his first job within like 11 months, I would not have believed you. And yeah, I think it would be a bad decision. I hope they go slightly differently. I also think, by the way, it would be better for Andrews if he could just stay on in somebody else's club staff and get some experience it has to be the right call I think I agree with all of those reservations what I will say though and um this comes from a little bit of a place of ignorance but if you're if you're a Brentford head coach I suppose more than pretty much any other club in the in the Premier League you're an extension of the system and so I guess as a set piece coach I might very well be wrong here but as a set piece coach you've already proven your ability to work within the parameters of what's expected of you at Brentford because all those decisions will be so heavily data influenced um I have no I was thinking while Dan was talking about whether I could think of any other instances of a set piece coach being promoted that high that quickly and I can't um but I don't know Brentford Brentford have got such a good history of good decisions um that I wouldn't I think the bigger issue is is perception here right not just externally but you know Matt's Matt said it himself the promoted clubs will be thinking Brentford are the ones to go at and that's like that's a big deal and that's a big deal whoever replaces frank indeed we still haven't got confirmation it could even be chris wilder because he's available now of course after being fired this week by sheffield united just on the subject of football in sheffield tom russell though asking daniel could you talk about the situation at sheffield wednesday a great great club that's had a pretty crap time for 25 years and is now held hostage by an incompetent owner.

48:57That sounds fun. Shall we get to that after this? And we'll also get on to another of the big talking points, Gennaro Catuzzo for Italy. Yay!

49:12This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. Gennaro Catuzzo officially announced as the new Italy manager on Sunday, but first, Daniel, tell us about Sheffield Wednesday. Yeah, I mean, this civil war between Desfond Chancery, the owner, and the supporters has been lingering on for at least two years, really. It was September 2023 where he basically released a statement on the website saying supporters are selfish, you've got no right to tell me what to do, you've got no right to expect things of me, I'm not funding the club anymore, if I keep getting treated like this I'm not putting any more money in, and he did continue to put more money in, and that's the complicating factor here, is that he bought Sheffield Wednesday for around£30 million and he spent in the region of£150 to£160 million and what's happened is that Sheffield Wednesday have gone down three league places in 10 years.

50:06He would quite like quite a lot of that money back when he sells the club and he's not getting offers that he deems acceptable we are told and therefore the club is in a position where nothing is happening and it's slowly stagnating and dying. Players weren't paid on time in March. That wasn't the first time they were eventually paid. They weren't paid at the end of May. And we are told that some of the players still haven't been paid May's wages. There's obviously no revenue coming in, matchday revenue coming in over the summer. So any money they make in the transfer market, it seems is going to have to go on player wages rather than investment.

50:46It's all just a really, really sorry situation. And I mean, the best thing that can happen is that club can be sold. That's not easy. I think the message has to be now, it's really hard when you've had this for two years to up your protest as a fan, because what happens is you get worn down by it and your spirit gets eroded. You don't get riled up. But I think the time has come for them to get riled up now. I think they have to outright protest, which is really hard when you haven't got a game for nearly two months or a competitive game. But that has to happen. The club is in great danger. People always think, well, it's a big club.

51:18They won't go under. but if you aren't paying players and you're getting charges for that and you continue to not be able to pay players you no longer are a going concern like that's how that's how unfortunately that's how economics works and they are getting towards that time crikey that's dramatic well hopefully we'll see some better news on that soon not sure if the final item today falls into that category i'm reasonably positive but genaro gatuzzo was officially announced as the new Italy manager on Sunday. Italy are in a little bit of difficulty in their latest World Cup qualifying group, having missed the four-time World Cup winners, having missed the last two editions of that tournament.

52:01Norway are racing ahead in the group. Italy only played one game so far, sorry, two games so far. One of those, though, was a heavy defeat at the hands of the Norwegians. Spalletti has gone. Cattuzzo, one of the last great generation of Italian players, has come in. Andy says, Jimbo, honestly, please tell me, am I missing something with Cattuzzo? I just don't see it. He's failed at every top job he's had. No. Well, Andy, he's had lots of jobs, some of them top. Milan for a bit, Napoli, Valencia, Marseille. This is the biggest task he's had. Has he ever really convinced? Probably not. But it was interesting to see a succession of former Italy managers talking about how happy they are with the appointment in the days that followed the announcement.

52:53Lippi, Marcello Lippi, who won the World Cup with Gattuso and others in 2006, famously Ringio Gattuso grabbing Lippi by the throat as part of the celebrations. Iconic moment there. And Lippi saying, basically, I think this is great because I see myself in him. not sure which bit but if marcello thinks that that's fine with me sacchi was a little more a little bit more explicit about why he thinks it's good news uh he called gattuso just what italy need because he says that more than ideas and tactics this is a team lacking spirit and i think if you saw the norway game or their performances the euros last year that is 100 right gattuso he says is exactly the man to restore the fire and pride and sacchi adds he himself is evidence that you don't need technical ability to be successful you need hunger etc and so on uh so yeah i'm on board with this they do need some tactical ideas no question italy i was gonna say he strikes as a it reminds me of joe jordan when he was at spur he strikes as a really good um assistant manager for a tactician right someone who maybe struggles to convey the meaning of the message, but who is getting the rest right.

54:11Italy need both, right? That's the problem here, is that they're choosing between two things and they need both. And I just, I heard, like you say, I heard all those Italy managers or read their quotes and I thought, well, it sounds like you're talking about Gattuso the player here, not necessarily Gattuso the coach. We shall see. The plan is perhaps to bring in somebody with more technical expertise, a Cesare Prandellian perhaps, a kind of overseeing role as a technical director, but moves ongoing with the Italian national side. Crikey. They're in a spot of bother. Nine points behind Norway. They need to win all the remaining games with big goal margins to try and catch up on Norway and then beat the Norwegians.

54:50Harland would go at the end of qualifying. Now, just to finish off today, and perhaps most excitingly of all, the draw for the InterTotally Cup has now been made. You might count this in our last show. Santiem. certainly did he says that was a filthy draw actually looking forward to that more than the club world cup so the bar set very very high there by santiem if you didn't hear who's getting who i can confirm that daniel story you'll be up against michael cox your reaction i think it's the second time i've played him in the first round it it sounds bad news but it's also like a very nice uh well i lost but actually it's fine because i lost to michael so he'll probably go and win the thing so it's a kind of it enables some emotional self-preservation if it wasn't for that damned Cox I'd have won the whole thing well indeed and how many men have said that in the past as well uh Michael Cox a three-time winner of the Intertotally Cup but Daniel Sturri you've got one of those trophies on your mantelpiece as well the other match-ups in an absolutely scintillating first round Duncan Alexander will be taking on producer Charlie with very much a when Italy hosted the World Cup in 1934 vibe to it.

56:06And also Tom Williams, who will be taking on Charlie Eccleshire. Oh, and the one that we'll be kicking things off with in our next show on Thursday, which is Julian Laurence against Benji Laniardo. Benji, who's a former finalist, taking on here the player who has featured in more intertotally matches without ever winning the title than any other. Julian Laurence. Curiously, all the previous winners of the Interactive Cup are on the same side of the draw. You'll have noticed this, listener, which means we're guaranteed to have someone in the final who's never won before. Who will it be? Anyway, you can begin that journey with us on Thursday.

56:45We've reached full stop on, I think, today's show. So it's many, many thanks to everyone for being with us. Matt Davis-Adams. Thank you, James. The handsomer, better version of the Matt Davis, Noddington Forest duopoly. Seb Stafelblur, the one and only and Daniel Storey and of course producer Charlie and you listen I hope you have a terrific time we're back as I mentioned on Thursday with loads more exciting things to say so do join us for that for now from all of us here it's goodbye

57:17you've been listening to the Totally Football Show part of the Athletic FC podcast network for more great football podcasts like this one including the Athletic FC and our six dedicated club podcasts Search for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify, and all the usual places. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

57:40The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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