Do England have it in them to beat Spain at Wembley?

0:00Totally Football Show, international break, it's underway. Let's get through this together, eh?

0:10Today we're talking England-Spain and also England's pain. Do they not have it in them? Netherlands have Javi in them. Catalan, one of the hosts of new managers as these international fixtures roll around. Klopp, Zidane, Pocagnoli, among the others. We'll hear about their plans as the Nations League starts up, remind ourselves what it is and look at some further flung fixtures too. Brazil in India and USA with their teenage sensation Kavan Sullivan. It's the Totally Football Show. Thursday the 24th of September. Very exciting line-up for you today. We've got Duncan Alexander, Tom Williams, we've got Felipe Cardenas on the way, and Jack Lang as well.

0:48Hello. Hi, Jack. Close your eyes. You could almost be back in the Ranchito Avenue having a World Cup. marooned in Mexico.

0:57James Richardson: There are worse places to be marooned, but yeah, it was 28 nights in the same hotel was an experience. On your own? On your own? Largely on my own, yeah. What do you mean by that? Well, I had big play to some degree. Colleagues dropped in for a couple of games, very fleeting, on the edge of my consciousness. Right. Mostly it was me and the hotel staff who I grew to knew rather too well, frankly.

1:22Jack Lang: A World Cup meets Alan Partridge meets The Shining. Yeah, strong Shining vibes. When the lots were drawn and you got Mexico, I think everyone thought, wow, Jack's going to get the real World Cup down there. But we would see you from time to time from your lonely diary.

1:40James Richardson: It was great. It was a great gig. And it did mean I skipped out a lot of the US-based doom and gloom. Don't remember any doom and gloom around, are we? No. Just sunshine. 24-7. Well, not 24-7. That would be weird. Two weeks, I've had him. In Stockholm, perhaps. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I don't want the listener to feel too sorry for me. No, no. I was eating like... Well, you got to go to England, Mexico, where you were probably eating the turf. Did you eat grass after that? Didn't eat the grass. Didn't get anywhere close to the actual pitch, but something of that game will stay with me, I'm sure. Excellent.

2:15I don't like the phrase eating the grass. I know Thomas Tuchel said he wished he had after that game. Do you think that's something from German?

2:22Jack Lang: Is that a thing in your book, Tom? Eating the grass. No, although the thing that it brings to mind in a football context is, no, I was going to say Gerard Houllier. Remember the controversial Robbie Fowler goal celebration when he scored against Everton? Right. And he appeared to be pretending to snort the white line. Well. And Gerard Houllier said, no, no, no, they're just joking around. He was pretending to eat the grass. There you go. Well, for me, England played the Netherlands in a friendly at Wembley and Puntala hit the ground and sort of sat up and he had a mouth full of like actual Wembley turf.

2:51And it's, I don't know, it's something really quite unpleasant about it. Like being sort of waterboarded with grass.

2:56Jack Lang: But specifically on the subject of the grass as the Azteca. Yes. I mean, I think Tuchel has been slightly mocked for saying he wished he'd eaten it. But I've only ever been to Mexico City once and I did the stadium tour of the Azteca. And I did. I ate the whole bunch. I grabbed a fistful of turf. What did it taste like? No, I just put it in my bag. Okay. So I'd have like, so I would be imbued by the spirit of the Azteca and specifically Maradona's handboard in England forever.

3:27James Richardson: I bet that wasn't as surreptitious as you thought it was. So you left Mexico with Mexican grass in your bag. Yes, yes, I did. Live to tell the tale. Wow. Jack, I know there's a lot of other memories. Some musical, that track that you. Yeah. What's the guy called again? Juan Gabriel. Juan Gabriel. He's quite a performer, isn't he? Yeah, I mean, my son loves that song now. Yeah. He demands it in the car. Right. Yeah. What song is it, Jack? Desde qui te connaissi. Yeah, Since I Met You. Yeah. It's a nine-minute opus, and it starts very slowly with a plucked guitar. But it's stay with it. But it gets rowdy at the end with horns, and then when the drum drops.

4:09The drums, and I know you were excited by the backing vocals, the horns does it for me. The horns, yeah. The horns. Check that out maybe If you're in search of musical adventures Beyond our kind of bubble Yes I'll move on It's That was all the World Cup But it's Nations League That's what's happening The real World Cup For many That's happening over the next I don't know Three, four months As far as I can tell Hands up who knows Who the holders of the Nations League are Portugal Portugal Come on guys That's how big this competition is An Iberian side So close Spain B Portugal For the second time, actually, they are the current holders.

4:46And we're going to be seeing loads of teams vying to take their title from the 54 teams in action. All in all, you probably know the Nations League format. I don't think people do. And the good news is they're changing it. They're changing it. This is the last time. The last time of the current format. If you come third in the group, you automatically qualify for the 2086 World Cup. Yes. Well, that's important. Yeah. Yeah. So 54 teams, I think we said, and there's promotion and relegation. But if you're in the top league, League A, then if you win your group, then you get through to the final four.

5:21And that's where the real magic happens. There's some good games coming up. You've got this evening, Thursday, Netherlands hosting Germany, which is always big, but particularly with two rookie international managers on their respective benches, Gianni Hernandez for the Netherlands, And, of course, Jürgen Klopp. Jürgen, two squads, Klopp for Germany. France got a new manager, Zinedine Zidane. We'll hear about that from Tom shortly. In their group, which is a tough-looking group, you've got Italy, who have Roberto Mancini returning. They face Belgium, who've got a new manager as well. And it's Mark van Bommel.

5:56Yes. Wow. So weird. Scotland have got a new manager, Sebastian Pocconioli. Yeah. I mean, obviously. Fleetingly of Monaco.

6:05Jack Lang: Yeah. He didn't leave much of an impression. We'll touch on some of that later on. Further afield, the man they call Poach in the USA will start the new chapter of USMNT with a very exciting set of squad selections. Lionel Messi will get his send-off with Argentina. And Brazil, as mentioned, head over to Australia for a bit and then India.

6:32James Richardson: Yeah, really racking up the air miles.

6:34Jack Lang: are they that afraid to go home after the World Cup and submit themselves to the anger of the

6:41James Richardson: Brazilian people it's still digesting maybe we'll get a check on surely no one has ever played Australia then India in an international break before it's quite commonwealth coded isn't it yeah it's the sort of thing that would have happened in the 1930s I feel anyway we asked what listeners were looking forward to in the international break lots of people got in touch actually Victor Akadra says, USA Youth Movement, Kavan Sullivan, Adrian Mehmeti, Julian Hall, Neil Peer, to name a few. So we'll hear from Felipe Cardenas about USA later on. Adore Apollo says, I'm looking forward to seeing whether Greece will be everyone's dark horses for Euro 2028.

7:21Oh, yeah. Is that right? Mm-hmm. He mentions some of the players. I say he. They mentioned some of the players. Kostoulos, Zolis, Zolis, rather. And Zolakis, Konstantinos. Karetsis at Dortmund

7:34Jack Lang: Tom you're up on Greece here Yeah I mean just you know Lots of very exciting Talented players Been quite a few Greeks Hitting the headlines In the Premier League Already this season So

7:43James Richardson: You've got your guy At Como Do the Cass Oh yeah Yeah a good shout Yeah Okay Ian Phillips says Can we agree that the most WTF of the new appointments Is Sebastian Pocaniole Pitching up as Scotland boss Him and big Oli McBurney Is a footballing marriage I didn't know I needed Wow Well, obviously, so much for us to get into. Let's begin, though, with what's going to happen Saturday at Wembley as England face Spain. Saturday evening, England-Spain at Wembley, and then back two hours for a live stream after. Duncan, you're joining for that? Yeah. Woo! All right. That'll be on YouTube live after England-Spain.

8:22England taking on the best team in the world. How positive are England supporters in the studio feeling about England's chances with...

8:33James Richardson: I defer to Tom as the biggest England fan. England fan up until what? 2014-ish?

8:39Jack Lang: Been over this. It was a fleeting dalliance at the age of six. So they met not long ago in the Euro final. And they could have, had it not been for reasons, they could have met in the World Cup final this summer. This time around, what's at stake? A lesser thing. Beyond the League Cup Beyond the League Sorry Nations League Sorry

9:03James Richardson: It's interesting that Sir Anthony Gordon Gave a very good Press conference I thought you called him

9:07Jack Lang: Sir Anthony Gordon then He's made that big an impact

9:11James Richardson: Sir Anthony Hopkins Anthony Gordon Said that a lot of his Barcelona teammates Have told him In the last few weeks England v Spain That would have been A real World Cup final I'm sure I think there is On both sides Did they pat him on the head As they said that It's a feeling of missed opportunity here. Famously in football history, in 1967, Scotland beat England and they claimed that they were now the world champions. So I feel like this is an unofficial World Cup final. Except that the timeline of unofficial world champions will have diversed them a long way away. It might be Spain anyway because they've won so many games.

9:47What is it, 38 games now? A world record 38 games if you discount them losing the last Nations League final on penalties to Portugal. Yeah. But, I mean, I guess what I was hinting at when I say what's at stake, for Thomas Tuchel a chance to build bridges, reset. As such, his call-up of the likes of Trent Alexander-Arnold and Cole Palmer, both of whom were notoriously excluded from the World Cup squad. Cole Palmer had to withdraw. Declan Rice also withdrawn. And Morgan Gibbs-White pitching up because he'd literally run out of other people to call I guess. Yeah I mean everyone wanted Gibbs White probably in the World Cup squad and definitely in this squad he's been probably the most consistent player in his position in the Premier League this year.

10:31Produced a nice little video of his wife. Have you seen this Tom? Unfortunately I have yeah. No it's quite

10:36James Richardson: sweet. I haven't so please tell. They're miming to a song I don't know what the song is. The lip syncing yeah. And he's sort of she's because they only just got on their family holiday and he had two hours later he was off. It's quite sweet I don't know. Do you think? Why cynics like Tom Woodard? No, I just like... I'm with Tom on it. I feel like if Paul Bowden had done that, you'd have been all over it.

10:55Jack Lang: Yeah, please don't bring his name up. Yeah, like... I get the sense that perhaps two of them aren't as into it like as each other, maybe. I don't know. Really? I don't know. Just peculiar. I don't know. It'll be harmless, harmless, harmless fun. So, you know. Yeah. Fair dues. It's on TikTok. I mean, in the 80s, if a player got caught up late, they'd probably been in, you know, drunk in the street or something. So it's progress. That's good. Thomas Tuchel, speaking at length, in fact, on England's own app about what went wrong against Argentina to deny the nation a place in the final. How convinced were you by his explanation, Jack?

11:35James Richardson: Well, I think the most pertinent point was that the retreat began before England actually scored. Right. Is that true? Do you remember? No, I don't think it doesn't try with my memory of events. No, I felt that England were attacking a lot in the lead up to that goal and had kind of wrested control of the game. And I, yeah, I don't really buy that. Well, he also said that he hadn't rewatched the game. So fair play, nor have I, Thomas, and probably never will.

12:04Jack Lang: Well, our friend Michael Cox wrote a piece the day after the game. And he pointed out that England had started to retreat even before Argentina equalised. And even before Tuchel had started to make the changes that he was subsequently lambasted for. And I think we touched on this when we were analysing the game. As much as Tuchel bear responsibility for some of the choices he made, there is an inherent tendency in the English national team to get into these advantageous positions and then panic. England are not good at seeing out games like this. And what happened against Argentina has happened at multiple tournaments over the last 25, 30 years.

12:51Jack Lang: But that's why the Mexico game was so celebrated because it was one of the few times where England actually did, particularly with 10 men, shut up shop and keep out the opposition. But yeah, I think... But by doing something similar, by putting on Dan Byrne, Yeah. And like letting Mexico have the ball. And Mexico made the mistake of just, you know, hammering crosses into the box. Mexico made the mistake of not having Leo Messi, who is arguably the biggest factor for what happened. That is a huge mistake for any team. Right. Yes, to his point, they were probably in a retreat a little bit. But I think he was convinced by the Mexico performance that they could just jump and jump again.

13:23And they couldn't. They could not. But anyway, let's all water under the bridge. Now they face this Spain side who are almost unstoppable. Are they, Jack?

13:31James Richardson: I mean, they look very, very good. There's a bit of new blood in the Spain side, like the token effort. We're going to see in a lot of these squads, there's big changes. Spain, not so much. Not so much. Roberto Fernandez is in after doing well from Espanyol. And Fermin Lopez is probably the only person in that squad who will feel, oh, God, I've got some ground to make up having really unluckily missed the World Cup. But their squad is just so good. And they are, I think it's really appropriate that England are playing this opponent now because of the whole Argentina thing, because of whether it was mental or tactical or as Anthony Gordon suggested.

14:14James Richardson: Sir Anthony Gordon. Sir Anthony Gordon, pay him his dues. Lord Gordon of Catalonia. Exactly. So like Anthony Gordon was like, yeah, kind of back to a lot to some degree. Right. It's not in us Which is an amazing Oh is that where that came from It's not in us I'm not sure It's something that can be taught I'm not sure we can ever get that

14:37Jack Lang: Get what? Passing Not panicking

14:40James Richardson: Not panicking But I think specifically possession Keeping It's not in us It's not in us Which I thought was This debate just seems like it's Someone's got his ears Circular Like we were talking about this stuff 20 years ago Surely but England can't England can't keep possession The way that England The old Jimmy Hill intro to three lines Very much so. I'm amazed by that. Yeah. I think Gordon's been turned on the training pitches of Spain. Right. It's not in you. No estás... I think he needs a spell in the Tower of London after Wembley. No hay passing ahí. To be fair to him, he speaks very good Spanish already and learning Catalan.

15:18A clever man. Well, there we go. It might be one or two Spanish lessons on Saturday at Wembley. Luis de la Fuente, who has just extended his contract to 2032 because he wins everything. Why wouldn't you? Spain on Saturday. We'll do the live pod after. Then England play Czechia on Tuesday and host them again a week later with a match against Croatia in between, who are now managed once again by Slavon Bilic, who's a lovely chap. Well, let's get on to some of the other fixtures next.

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19:11Other exciting fixtures. It's Thursday as we record this, which means that this evening is the Netherlands-Germany game. Still worth having a quick chat about because how exciting to see Javi Hernandez, not Dutch but of the Dutch school via Barcelona and the Cruyff Institute at La Masia against Jurgen Klopp who's certainly taking a fresh approach to international management.

19:36Jack Lang: Yeah I mean Xavi being Netherlands coach is fascinating and we all know about the Dutch influence at Barcelona and it kind of feels like this is perhaps the first time that They do have it in them. They do have it in them yeah I mean demonstrably and now we have like you know Barcelona giving back to Dutch football, what Dutch football successfully imported to Spanish football, and then kind of forgot how to do. And, you know, you look at some of the Netherlands' recent coaches, and they have just been cycling through the same, like, four or five. Four people. The last 12 appointments have been the same four people, one of.

20:11Jack Lang: And they've all been Dutch coaches, but they don't all play in a particularly Dutch style. Louis van Gaal one of the greatest Dutch coaches of all time but 2014 World Cup Netherlands play with a back five and football was fairly rudimentary I mean you know even this summer at the World Cup Netherlands go out to Morocco having had 30 % of possession or something so despite the fact you had these relatively storied Dutch coaches at the helm they weren't doing things that seemed all that identifiably Dutch And so they've gone for a Spaniard, a Catalan in Xavi, albeit not their first choice. And we know this because when he was introduced to the media, Nigel de Jong, who was sitting next to him, who was the president of the Dutch FA or something, basically said, well, our first choice, as you know, was Pep Guardiola.

21:02Jack Lang: And he said no. And our second choice was Arna Slott. And he said no. Our third choice was Xavi. And I'm very pleased to say he said yes. And he joins us now. That was how he was introduced. That's what I feel like when I come on the pod.

21:14James Richardson: Really awful. Jack, that's so not true. Definitely not true. Normally. I mean, Tom, possibly. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Although I think, Tom, you did step in for Jack about a week ago when Jack was not able to. Yes, that's happened. I mean, that's very Dutch. The Chavi to your Arna slot. It's very Dutch to do that.

21:33Jack Lang: Yeah, to be that frank about things. Hopefully, Chavi's prepared for what might be a very different experience. and so it'll be interesting to see how Chavi goes about trying to re-Dutchify you know the Dutch national team and the Netherlands have all the issues that they've had for the last few years which is that they don't have any decent centre forwards Brian Broby that is a good shot actually and he's moved Memphis to Pai has not been called up Bacorz sadly has not been called up so there is a shift going on but yeah you're right how could I forget about Brian Broby about hat trick hero Brian Broby And Xavi used his bum well as a footballer.

22:11Jack Lang: And Brian Brobby uses his bum as well as almost anyone and the rest of his physique. So maybe that'll be a common thread. Very possibly. As for Germany, 44 players picked by Jurgen Klopp because there's nothing in the rules to say you can't. He's a loopholder. And he's got two squads in the first squad play the first two games. And then they get to go home but from one of them, a keeper. And then everybody else has to stick around.

22:37James Richardson: Would you be annoyed if you were that one? No, if you were the keeper who plays in both squads, wouldn't you feel like... Well, I presume he probably won't play in both in all the games. Right. But yeah, there were 69 cap players, but a better metric, eight I'd never heard of. Oh. Across 44, which is quite a high number for an elite national team. Right. But yeah, it's certainly a punchy way to start things. And it's, you know, the way he came in and said, look... Let's reclaim national pride. Reclaim our national pride. and also the whole like if people don't leave me me and my family alone i'm out of here right um yeah i mean it's very it's a very yolo start to his his reign and could be really exciting could be couldn't it you get this sort of impression he doesn't really like if he walked out tomorrow he's fine yeah and which is a which is a really interesting dynamic for an international team because germany possibly well i suppose brazil as well but there's a you know in terms of like how much the national team just encapsulates and enrages everyone.

23:34So I'm excited to see how it transpires. There we go. Netherlands against Germany could be taking place even as we speak. But anyway, Thursday evening that kicks off. Also in that group are Serbia and Greece, who we spoke about before. Also on this Thursday evening in Lisbon, you've got Portugal hosting Wales, Tom, which you don't want to talk about.

23:53Jack Lang: Like Welsh optimism is a low. How are Wales in Group A? Because they've won Group B. Bingo. Last time. Or won their group in League B. You haven't got a new manager on account of the fact that Craig Bellaby's moved to Burnley through. Yeah. I mean, he wavered clearly. I mean, his head was turned. When turf more calls, it's hard to have been all this. His post-game press conference, will he introduce it by saying, well, my first choice was to be managing Burnley. But I mean, so he... He spoke to Burnley. and the explanation that came out was that there'd been fairly detailed negotiations about what would happen were he to become Burnley coach and that things broke down because of the composition of his backroom staff or something like that.

24:42Jack Lang: But he was asked about it in a press conference this week and he said that's not what happened. I decided myself that it wasn't right, still committed to Wales. I said no, anything else is untrue. it's not an ideal context going into this extremely difficult set of fixtures and you know Wales fans have been hugely positive about Bellamy ever since he came in because he made a really positive impact but he was criticised a little bit for some of his selection decisions in the playoff final against Bosnia when they failed to reach the World Cup and now that he's been fluttering his eyelashes in the direction of Turf Moor there's a bit of

25:21James Richardson: Bellamy wanted turf more in the same way you wanted more turf at the end

25:29Bellamy wanted turf more in the way that you wanted more turf I thought that was a reference to me not having any hair but it wasn't so I can enjoy it too Double meaning Well as you say very difficult set of fixtures because you've got Norway and Denmark in this group they're facing each other on Thursday evening but first of all you go to Lisbon to take on Portugal where there's tremendous excitement about this septuagenarian turning up. No, not Cristiano Ronaldo. His new manager, Jorge Jesus. Jorge Jesus, I should say. Yes. His former manager, Al Nassar. They won a title there. Anyway, so Ronaldo's still there.

26:04He's not going to go to any more World Cups and things,

26:06Jack Lang: but he is going to do this Nations League. And he's obviously closing in on his 1 ,000th goal, and I can see him ticking off quite a few of those in this fixture. Against Wales. And to be fair, it will be a proper 1 ,000. yeah you suggested that peles was in some way questionable i think there were some non-canon efforts in there different times the rsss f have some thoughts on that ronaldo gave a really funny

26:31James Richardson: press conference yesterday oh did he which he did the classic ronaldo rallying against enemies perceived or he said they'd need a shotgun to get me and even then i dodged the bullet Shotguns of course actually shoot pellets Yeah I know but I mean yeah Was that the funny bit or Did he do jokes on it? Funny for Ronaldo No one was laughing Not funny ha ha but funny I guess we proved earlier that In saying that we thought Spain were the reigning champions People are out to get him including us Yeah people need to

27:08Jack Lang: Put some respect Recent footage though of him playing for Al Nasser does not suggest that he's likely to dodge a shotgun, let alone a very slow-moving... Wales team? I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's still perfectly capable of Sparrow. Who's going to be marking him? Well, this is the thing, Wales, on top of the, like, ambient doom and gloom, we've got all these missing... Ambient doom and gloom, what an album that is. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's deep crap. Yeah, a lot of missing players. No Joe Rodon, no Dylan Lawler. that would be the first choice centre-back partnership. No Harry Wilson, no Carl Darlow, first choice goalkeeper.

27:46Jack Lang: So Wales are really down to the bare bones. Damn. Yeah, and it's 10 years since Portugal. Like a Nantucket beach. Like a Nantucket beach. I'm just kind of... Yeah, and 10 years since Portugal knocked us out of the Euro 2016 semifinals. Would be great to avenge that, but it's hard to... All right, well, that's Thursday night anyway. Oh, Friday night, you've got Turkey, France and Italy, Belgium. Woof. Where do you want to start with those two? because one of those needs watching. Turkey, France is going to be interesting because Zidane, France for the first time in 14 years without Didier Deschamps.

28:18Yeah. Zidane, who hasn't managed for how long has he been out? 2021, he left Madrid.

28:23Jack Lang: So five years. Five years. Twiddling his thumbs. Waiting for this. Yeah. And yeah, now he's back and we're already getting a sense of how he's going to go about things. It's looking like there's going to be a bit of a tactical tweak. Kylian Mbappé is no longer centre forward. He's going to be on the left. Usman Dembele is going to play through the middle, rising his Paris Saint-Germain role. Michael Alisse, who was the number 10 with a fair amount of success at the World Cup, is going to be out on the right where he plays for Bayern Munich. And then he's going to play a midfield three of Manu Kone of Roma as the number six, Adrian Rabiot and Ryan Scherke in like a kind of central midfield role.

29:06Jack Lang: So, I mean, loss of talent on the pitch. I love how Rabiot's still there. No, Rabiot's still there. Well, someone's got to do the running that Mbappe probably won't do. And one of the issues with Mbappe playing on the left is that ordinarily your left winger kind of tracks the opposition fullback and defends a bit, but not really Mbappe's thing. So, I think that probably explains why Rabiot's there. So, yeah, like, you know, some fairly significant changes. Mbappe's been a centre forward for France, you know, for the last couple of years also for Real Madrid and I think you know the feeling has been that that is his position that is where he's going to play and so it's kind of curious that he's being moved out to the left again but I mean Zidane I think Zidane Zidane said in his first his first press conference of the get together he thinks that is still Mbappe's best position Must be the first time a golden boot winner has been moved out of centre-fool straight after a World Cup Yeah Yeah There's a Kylian Mbappe exclusive right now on the Athletic you can read it you can hear it.

30:02Jack Lang: It's almost like he's trying to get his name in people's heads because there's some big... I've never heard of it. Never out of your head. It was pretty good on the video, yeah. Turkey, who will be taking on France on Friday evening, are still... Dark horses, mate. I think so, yeah. Vincenzo Montella, bright young Italian manager in charge, despite their rather woeful World Cup performance. Well, they made Pat Beach look good at the World Cup, which I will respect them for. Which is good. Yeah, yeah, true. Italy-Belgium meantime in that group and Roberto Mancini returning, having walked out on the Azuri for Saudi money, has now crept back in after their latest failure to reach a World Cup.

30:39Intriguingly, he, of course, won Euro 2020 with Italy a year late. So we'll see how he gets on. Intriguingly, he's freshened up their squad a lot. Among the many exciting players to look out for is Alessandro Romano, who is on loan from Roma, yes, at Cagliari and has the Islanders up in top four right now. So he's one of the revelations of this season. He's going to be anchoring the midfield. But there are a lot of new young faces there, and there are no less than 10 foreign-based players, which means that actually this weekend we could see more Serie A players turn out for Scotland than we do for Italy.

31:15Because Scotland have fully six Italian-based players in their squad, and that's not including, of course, Scott McTominay, who's had to take this international break off for some minor heart surgery. And a manager with an Italian name. And a manager with an Italian name. All right, so we have this question, Ian Philip, who is excited about seeing what Pocanoli can do with Ollie McBurney. Pocanoli, who played in the Premier League or certainly in English football for Brighton and West Brom, which I don't remember, but I've read that happened. You recall his work at Monaco. Yeah. From that, what can you posit for Scottish fans?

31:51Jack Lang: I mean, it's difficult context because it was the season where Monaco signed a load of experienced players to try and add a bit of top level know-how to this very callow changing room. So the Paul Pogba, Eric Dier, Lukas Herodekski recruitment drive. And they all got injured and didn't play very much. Lots of pressing, lots of tactical versatility, different systems. I think ultimately people felt that it was more the case that he didn't know what his best team was than that he was just kind of mixing things up to keep things fresh. And they had that dreadful run of results right at the start of the season when they lost seven out of eight Ligue 1 games.

32:36Jack Lang: Then it looked like he was turning it around and they went on a really good run. And then they tailed off again quite disastrously at the end of the season. And, you know, he departed. One thing that really struck me about Pocagnoli was how relentlessly positive he was. So Monaco got stuffed 6-1 by Real Madrid. Very much an air to Steve Clark in that sense. Well, I mean, in the sense that all international managers are a reaction against the guy that went before, Pocagnoli kind of makes an awful lot of sense. He saw his team ship six goals at the Bernabeu and came into the press conference room and was like, I saw some things that I like for my team tonight.

33:11Jack Lang: I wouldn't change things. I wouldn't change anything about my approach. So very much the anti-Steve Clark in that respect. So, you know, we'll see how that works out for him. Prior to getting the Monaco job, we should mention that he was the fellow who took Union Saint-Gilois to their miracle season in Belgium where they won the title for the first time in 80 years. Yeah, and I think probably fairer to judge him on that than what happened at Monaco. Monaco is like a peculiar football club to have to manage. So much pressure from the supporters. Well, I mean, just relentless. But it was like a bit of a period of transition.

33:47Jack Lang: And there were some good things amid the many defeats. Okay. Very good. Anything else about European fixtures or should we follow Victor Akadra's lead and ask a question or two about USA? Tom? It's like a trivia question. Oh, yeah. So Zinedine Zidane, former Ballon d 'Or winner, taking over France national team. Who is the only former Ballon d 'Or winner to have won a major trophy as the head coach of an international team? Charlie's got his hand up. No. No professionals. Is it... So, a Ballon d 'Or winner... Won a Ballon d 'Or as a player, became an international manager and won a major trophy.

34:28Jack Lang: I have this weird feeling that Christos Stoichkov might have done it. But no. If only. If only. Duncan can't get it, can you? No, I'm thinking. I'm running through the list in my head. Charlie's all over it. He's got it. I tell you what, we'll get the answer after this.

34:47At QVC, fall shopping is more than just checking out. It's discovering the brands you love across beauty, fashion, home and culinary, all in one place. Whether you're getting ready for crisp mornings, cozy nights or everyday moments, QVC has what you need for the season ahead. With brands like Laura Geller, Philosophy, Ninja, and so many more. Shop now at QVC.com. Saturday, September 26th, two of combat sports' most dangerous strikers collide. Bare Knuckle. Liverpool's own Darren the Gorilla Till goes to war with Cuban powerhouse Yoel Soldier of God Romero. Plus, the Bare Knuckle Middleweight Championship of the World is on the line when the reigning champ Dave the Redneck Mundell defends against undefeated British challenger Jack the Meek Cleaver Colon.

35:39BKFC 94, Till vs. Romero. Watch it live only on DAZN. Sign up now at DAZN.com. Are you going to give us a hint first or just make the answer straight on us? What year did he win the Ballon d 'Or?

35:54Jack Lang: He won the Ballon d 'Or in the 1970s. Oh. And he lifted this... Second Beckenbauer? Correcto, Bechton. Franz Beckenbauer. Won the big one. Mm-hmm. There it is. Get that, Charlie? Charlie's nodding. It's official. Yep. Confirmation. Charlie with access to the internet is not in a way. Now, USA, what a World Cup they had, eh? Remember that? The heady days of the opening weeks and why not us to the sad, sad business over Balogun and the Blah with Belgium. Well, they are back underway on Saturday with a friendly against Peru ahead of some key matches against Mexico. And Canada, of course, their top rivals, the big headline for the U.S.

36:36men's national team, is the call-up for Kavan Sullivan, the Philadelphia Union attacker who's got six goals and eight assists, depending on how you rate assists, in the last eight games. As such, he's actually performing better than the pixie-toed Argentine down in Miami. Little man. Yeah. Yeah. Earlier, I spoke to our friend Felipe Cardenas about him and about Pochettino's new chapter with the Stars and Stripes. Felipe, we go again. We're back. Yeah, it's back. You know, international windows. It's what I love. Well, you're there at the training ground. And I imagine there's a lot of excited folk there because of Mauricio Pochettino's latest call up and one 16 year old in particular.

37:20Yes, this has been, I think, post-World Cup, an important call-up because Mauricio Pochettino, not only has he agreed to extend his contract with the Federation through 2030, but this particular squad includes eight teenagers. And yes, Kevin Sullivan, the 16-year-old, is the most high profile of the eight. He is a Philadelphia Union attacker. And obviously, as we know, he is already signed to Manchester City. He cannot move to Manchester City until he's 18. He is turning 17 next week. But there's a lot of buzz about this player. And as you know, Jim, in American sports culture or just American entertainment, when a hype train takes off on the rails, it gets real.

38:07And so there's a lot of attention being, there's a lot of people pointing at Kevin Sullivan as, you know, can he be the next big American football star? Or even the next global superstar, because the kind of things that he's doing right now, even at 16 in MLS, he debuted in the league at 14, breaking Freddie Adu's record, which is a name which I guess has been used a lot in comparison with him in terms of prospectively a world-class talent. Freddie Adu never really came through. How confident are you that Kevin is the real deal or will be? Well, you know, I tend to, personally, I pump the brakes often with teenagers because you have to see how they play at a high level over a consistent period of time.

38:49And so, yes, Kevin Sullivan playing in MLS, playing against professionals over the last eight games. He scored, I think, seven goals and added a few assists. Eight assists? Yeah, yeah. And from a numbers perspective, he's there. He's right alongside Messi, who's very likely to win his third straight MVP in this league. That's never happened before. So to just be in the same company with Messi obviously elevates the hype around this player. But he's an interesting player. I think he's a player whose profile, we're not sure yet where he is going to best fit tactically. He can play across the front three.

39:27He likes to be on the ball. He's not a number 10. He's not a number nine. He's not necessarily a winger either. The other day I told a colleague that I think a comparison, and this is not a like for like, but I do see something similar to like a Phil Foden type, that type of player where you just want him around the ball. He can be creative. And he's very aggressive and confident for a teenager. And I think that's what right now is standing out. Freddie Du, as you mentioned, I think the biggest difference is that football in this country has just moved so much more forward than it was before. I think Freddie Du perhaps won't have the same opportunities, the same infrastructure, and even just people around him saying, let's take it.

40:14Let's be calm about this. Freddie Du was compared to Pelé. He was on 60 Minutes as a teenager. And I think even just here, the national team, they're being guarded with these young players. They're not just throwing them out there to the press to talk. So I think we have to wait and see, Jim, to see what Kevin Sullivan can do, especially in this window when he starts playing against real, true internationals. And we're talking about opponents in Mexico and Canada, of two CONCACAF rivals that don't have a good relationship with the United States on the pitch. So that'll add another element when he starts playing.

40:52Absolutely. It's Peru on Saturday night, friendly, and then another friendly against Chile on Wednesday. The call-up features eight, I think you said, teenagers. There's a bunch of older players who didn't make the squad, including Weston McKinney, Fowler, Mbaligan, and Christian Pulisic. What are the shockwaves about that news been like? I think it was somewhat expected, only because all three players that you mentioned are coming off a World Cup. And then when they went back to their respective clubs, McKinney with Juventus, Pulisic with AC Milan and Flo Baligan, obviously he almost made that move to Everton, but he's back with Monaco.

41:33They were all nursing injuries. And, you know, you saw this with some other national teams around the world. You've seen England players back out. Colombia decided not to call in Luis Diaz to give him rest, to let him get back into the fold of Bayern Munich. And I think that's a lot of what occurred between Pochettino and those players you mentioned. Christian Pulisic just now getting back into good graces with AC Milan and the new manager, Amarim, scored a goal in his first start. So that just opens the door, Jim, to who's going to step up in the positions that those players occupy for the national team.

42:07Is there any chance that Trump can make a call and get Pochettino to bring Balogun back into the squad? I don't know. I'm just asking. The mood around Pochettino after that World Cup, which began with a bang and ended very much with a whimper against Belgium. What's the general feeling around him now as he begins this new chapter? Once Prochettino agreed to stay on, which was a surprise. I didn't think that he would still be here at this stage. I thought by now he would be back in Europe, probably back in the Premier League. And that didn't happen. And he has been pretty vocal in saying that he's not only back, but he wants a bigger role.

42:43So now he's not just a senior men's national team coach. He's really an architect of what U.S. soccer from the U-17s to the U-20 World Cup, which is coming up, the Olympic Games in two years. He wants to be part of that. And so I think the narrative around Ficettino of this braggadocious Argentine who has come in and tried to just shake up US soccer, now he's part of the program. And this team has to take a next step. Felipe Cardenas. Felipe mentioned Freddie Adu, which led to, towards the end of Adu's not great career, he was linked with a move to Blackpool. I think it might have been when they were in the Premier League.

43:23I wanted it to go through purely because you could have had the headline, Adieu, like to be beside the seaside. But it didn't happen. Yeah. It was much ado about nothing, as it turned out. Very much so. Oh, Jack. Yes. Move us on, please. Brazil. So, first of all, you were hinting about the fact that things haven't quite been digested yet, the way that the workup went for the Selassar.

43:47James Richardson: Well, I think that's true of all countries, isn't it? We see it with England, like a lot of the post-mortem is only happening now because this is when the managers are speaking again. So to some degree, that's just a kind of a quirk of the calendar, I think. But yeah, Brazil, there was a small reckoning after the World Cup. What did that consist of? Questions over team selection. I think to some degree, Ancelotti was helped by the fact that Neymar made it all about him in that exit against Norway, because it obviously shone a very embarrassing light on the selection of Neymar and Ancelotti. That is a black mark against his name, but it also disguised so many of the other things that were wrong in that tournament.

44:37James Richardson: So like to some degree, being able to point at Neymar, I'm like, this guy's gone now. That is beneficial in some ways. The fact Ancelotti signed a new contract before the tournament meant that there was no like, let's get this guy out and start again. It was always going to be a kind of continuity process. He's named a very experimental squad, which Brazil often do in the wake of a tournament exit. Kind of rip it up, start again, which hasn't gone down well with everyone. Oh. Thiago Silva, still playing, has had a bit of a moan. Because he's not in it. Well, he wasn't expecting to be, but I think he was moaning on behalf of his 35 to 42-year-old brethren.

45:20Right.

45:21James Richardson: Your Casamiros, your Alisons, maybe. Those are the ones that come to mind, but probably Danilo and Alexandro. These guys have all been left out. Jean-Pedro was the big exclusion from the summer. He's not there this time because of injury. He was. Yeah, he pulled out. So he was intended to be there. And I think that's, I mean, that's the least Ancelotti could do after leaving him out of the World Cup squad. There are some interesting new players, like 11 of them are based in Brazil. This is also something that Brazil always do, like give the local people a bit of what they like. Also to put them in a shot window.

46:01Put them in a shot window. It doesn't hurt. The Glauber special.

46:04James Richardson: Very much so. And so you've got like youngsters. Jaya Konya, who's been playing for Nottingham Forest, has got his first call up. Vitor Hayes, who's this young Manchester City centre-back, not big names at all. Probably the most interesting one is like 27-year-old Mauro Junior, who's a left-back at PSV, who's never been called up until now, but it's been a problem position. So he's been. But I think the most interesting thing people will be watching in the Australia game, there's a double bill against Australia twice. Yeah. I mean, once you've gone there. Yeah. I mean, Brazilians call Australia, o Brasil que deu certo, the Brazil that worked out, kind of turned out right.

46:51James Richardson: Right. Do they really? Yeah, because it's seen as a similar climate, similar... Similar kit. Geographic range. Similar kit, that's so true. Similar kit, yeah, lovely. But against Australia in the first game, I'm sure there will be changes, but the first game, the front four is going to be Vinicius Junior, Rafinha, Henrik and Esteban, which is kind of this...

47:13Jack Lang: Is that Rafinha through the middle?

47:15James Richardson: To be honest, I look at it and I've got no idea. I imagine Henrik will probably have to play as the main striker. Maybe have Vinha just behind, Esteban to the right, Vini to the left. But that's a great front four. But it also, it's the thing that Brazil did all the way in the run-up to the World Cup. Just playing four forwards and leaving the two in midfield, who probably in this case will be Bruno Guimaraes and someone else. That's what went wrong at the World Cup. So maybe in a friendly against Australia and maybe against India, that's fine. But I think long term, he has to be looking at a way to find a passing midfielder and making it three in the middle.

47:53When do Brazil next get some serious fixtures, though?

47:56James Richardson: I think not until next year, really. Really? OK, so yeah, he can mess around. And even then, so the South American World Cup qualifiers are going to be a bit weird because Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay. Is it Paraguay? Already qualified. Will have qualified because they're all hosting one game. it's not been decided yet but like given how many teams like six automatic qualifiers it's basically going to be South America come on in you know you're all you're all right and then yeah love the bit of South America by the way we touched on it earlier Tom you mentioned the fact that this is the last edition of the European Nations League in this format the one in four years time is it?

48:382028-29

48:39Jack Lang: is the new door two years time what is the new format? it's going to be Three leagues rather than four. So leagues A, B and C, six teams per group. But isn't it an 18 team divided into leagues? Yeah, 18 teams per league. But divided into three groups of six. Swiss league style. Yeah. Because they're divided up into groups of six. I think the feeling was the Nations League wasn't complicated enough. So let's just change it. We've certainly nailed our explanation. Oh, well, we're still in group A. We need to change this. Yeah. This can't be right. What? News, UEFA. Anyway, just out of interest, why India?

49:12Yeah. It's part of a big movement in India at the moment to sort of get top level sport, I think. They've just been awarded the 2032 World Cycling Road Race Championship. They're trying to get the 2036 Olympics. There's a really big government push in many sports in India at the moment. Okay. I imagine this. They've got, basically, they're splashing a lot of cash. And I think that might come into it.

49:35James Richardson: I think it's going to be an amazing occasion. Like India has fervent support for Brazil. And the only other place I'd love to see them go in future, like Bangladesh, during the World Cup, if you see any footage from Bangladesh. So Bangladesh is essentially split right down the middle between Brazil and Argentina. They have these huge watch parties of like literally thousands of people, like all decked out in the shirts. They are crazy for it. And I would love one day to see, imagine a Brazil-Argentina in Bangladesh. In Bangladesh. Wow. Make that happen, world. Where are they going to be playing this time?

50:12Calcutta Fair enough, there you go Argentina have got three friendlies coming up And the one that I guess everyone will pay most attention to Is the one in the middle against Benin Which will see Lionel Messi don the Argentina shirt In a competitive match for the final time It will be his 208th cap if selected He's got 125 goals Done pretty well Jack, just to wrap things up you've written about Ecuadorian winger Kendry Pies yeah who Duncan saw in action recently he was in the Chelsea under 21 now known as Cobham Next Gen in certain decision against Wickham oh yeah in the EFL Trophy it's just got a new sponsor which I can't remember but it's some American food chain okay had many sponsors good because he's called Pies well yeah he lost 2-1 but he did assist Chelsea's goal Did he?

51:08He looks all right. Yeah. Jack, what should we know about Kendrick Pies and why?

51:12James Richardson: So he was one of the breakout players in South America three years ago now. He made his debut at 15, was a regular for Ecuador national team at 16, came through at Independiente del Valle, which is where Moses Caicedo, Pierre Incapier, William Pacho. It's like a big talent factory. And yeah, I've written about his situation. situation. This should be up by the end of the week. So he was seen as the next big thing, lovely left-footed, kind of like playmaker, dinky little player. So Chelsea paid foot, agreed to sign him when he was only 16. He could have moved when he was 18. Big sensation in Ecuador.

51:51James Richardson: They feel like this is the best attacking player they've produced in decades. And it just hasn't really happened for him so far. So he had to wait to come to Europe until he was 18, went to Strasbourg, barely played loan cut short went to River Plate barely played loan cut short and then a couple of weeks ago Xabi Alonso said yeah look this guy's not part of my plans hence he's a sub for Chelsea's under 21s at 19 and he has this kind of wonder kid reputation so it's an interesting yeah is there any idea why he hasn't been able to when he was young in Ecuador there were a couple of instances he He was spotted in a nightclub and a strip club age 16 before an Ecuador match.

52:39James Richardson: So there was this big feeling that this kid maybe needed better care, better advice, all of this stuff. And there's also, I think he's to some degree, not necessarily cut out for the European hurly-burly of the European games. I see, physically. Yeah, he's like an old school playmaker. Right. which is something I love, but maybe isn't cut out for Premier League or Liga. But he's a very talented kid. And what he is, the struggles he's had aren't commensurate with his talent, I don't think. So, yeah, I'm just, I've written a piece and it's just like, yeah, what's up with this guy? What could be next?

53:19James Richardson: Because he is a talented player. All right. Well, I look forward to finding out more about Kendry Pais. They're on The Athletic. What's Eating the Pais? Ah, nice. Thomas. There's Caper of Sutton isn't there?

53:32Jack Lang: Yeah. Time to think about it isn't it? Yeah makes you think. As mentioned we're going to be getting together on Saturday night to watch the England game Duncan Yoohoo! And then we'll do a live pod streaming on YouTube so do join us for that if you fancy or check it out afterwards Splendid to see you Jack Lang

53:55James Richardson: You too James. Look forward to Are you making it in some other time soon? Thank you very much, Tom. We'll be back Saturday, as I mentioned. No Euro show next week. So then I think on the Tuesday we'll be rounding up other stuff. But enjoy all that international football. Thank you for being with us today for now. From all of us here, it's goodbye.

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54:51Saturday, September 26th, two of combat sports' most dangerous strikers collide. Bare Knuckle Liverpool's own Darren the Gorilla Till Goes to war with Cuban powerhouse Yoel Soldier of God Romero Plus the Bare Knuckle Middleweight Championship Of the World is on the line When the reigning champ Dave the Redneck Mundell Defends against undefeated British challenger Jack the Meat Cleaver Cullen BKFC 94 Till vs. Romero Watch it live only on DAZN Sign up now at DAZN.com