England 2-3 Spain, plus Man City found guilty of 114 charges

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1:44For owners, that turns busy into business. To learn more, head to toasttab.com. That's T-O-A-S-T-T-A-B, toasttab.com. Toast, built for busy. Live from downtown London, it's the Totally Football Show.

2:10At Wembley, England 2, Spain 3, after a poor start, when Mark Gay gets charged by Jamal, normal for a Man City player, of course. England respond in style, take the lead, but without Dan Byrne to throw on, taste the feat. We look back at that and the other key international stories. Zidane with France, Zidane with Italy, beaten and booed off in Mancini's first game back. Plus, panic on the streets of London, and Manchester so much to answer for. We ask, did the Smiths predict Friday's guilty verdict for Manchester City? It's the Toby Football Show. It's Saturday the 26th of September. We have Duncan Alexander here in the studio.

2:50Hello, James. Hi, Duncan. Thanks for being with us on a Saturday night. No way else to be. Could have been anywhere in the world. Yeah, technically, but yeah, this is good. But you're right here with us, as is, sort of a bit, Daniel's story at his place in Julian Laurent's Chez Louis.

3:07Julien Laurens: Hello, boys. Hello, everyone. Good evening. Good evening to you. Lovely to see you both. Danny you were at Oxford City Morecambe in the National League South earlier today National League North surprising I agree that Oxford City are in the National League North but that is where they are Morecambe yeah that would make sense all right do you have a good day out I had a lovely time yeah speaking to Morecambe fans who four years ago were playing Ipswich Town in league games and now yes we're at Oxford City today so it has not gone well in the last four years. Premier Football Club. Four years ago, they were playing.

3:42Now they're preparing to face Manchester City. Extraordinary scenes. Jules, thank you for being with us. You've been busy as ever, but you had your eye on both games from England's group, but principally the one at Wembley. Did you enjoy it?

3:57Julien Laurens: Yeah, I thought it was great. I also watched Scotland before, which I should not have, let's be honest here, because that's 90 minutes of my life that I would never get back. But I thought this England-Spain game, I was excited before the game. And I think that the two teams delivered. And there's a lot of things for us to dwell into. Right. Number one team in the world against the number three team in the world based on the summer's ranking. So, of course, it was good. We're going to be talking about the England-Spain clash at Wembley. Of course, we're going to be talking about Friday's big news regarding Manchester City.

4:28Nick Hambling, say players. Actually, no, let's go with... Ah, yes. N3WTRT says, it seems like the charges against Man City are already affecting the players involved, considering Gay and O 'Reilly's issues. But you could even argue Rodri as well, conceding the penalty, which Kane missed. Do you think, is that... Is it too much to feel a couple of Man City players make a mistake? Their club is suddenly in confusion and doubt over their future? Daniel, what do you think? I think we are putting two and two together and reaching 140, probably. No, I don't think so. They did both make mistakes, both those England players.

5:10I think that's probably a product of the system and the style in Spain being good more than the results of Friday, I suspect. You can understand how it would be on their mind, though. Having said that, another Man City player had an outstanding performance on Friday evening, jewels for Italy against Belgium, even though his side lost 2-0. Gigi Donnarumma was outstanding.

5:35Julien Laurens: Yeah, and Ryan Shecky, I thought, was very good for France as well in a slightly different position for Zidane's first game away in Turkey. So clearly very, very different performances from different City players. Yeah, all right then. Let's get a quick check on the results before we get into tonight's action at Wembley. It was a 3-2 win for Spain there in North London against England earlier in the day. As witnessed by Jules, Scotland had started life under Sebastian Pocignoli with a goalless draw away in Slovenia. On Friday, Kylian Mbappe scored the only goal as France beat Turkey. Kylian then going off with an injury, which has already ended his international break.

6:18Concern for his wellness, of course, from a France and Real Madrid perspective. In that same group, Belgium took on Italy in Rome and beat them 2-0. So winning start for Mark van Bommel as the Belgian manager. On Thursday night, you had new managers for the Netherlands and Germany, Xavi Nandez and Jurgen Klopp. That game finished 1-1. Cody Gakpo with a fantastic equaliser against his old club manager, of course. In Group A4, Portugal were 1-0 winners over Wales. Wales. And in probably the game of the round, at least until this Saturday, Norway beat Denmark 3-2 in Oslo with Erling Haaland scoring twice.

7:02He's now on 64 goals in 56 caps. Remarkable stuff. All right, then. The game we're going to start with, though, is the one at Wembley. England's 3-2 defeat at home to Spain. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. Daniel, a defeat, but not an inglorious one for Thomas Tuchel's Three Lions. I think that's fair. We, everybody was hoping for something different from Argentina. I think it's true to say that these were two performances at different ends of a spectrum. And maybe there is a middle ground that England would like to find before the next major tournament.

7:44But this is a good time to try and find it and to kind of stick a pin in the map in various places and see what happens. It was great fun. England could both have been 3-0 down and 3-1 up in various points. They were brilliant on the break. They scored the best goal of the game, but there are serious questions over the back four. It sounds really negative because it was a fantastic game, but those defensive concerns are my main takeaway from the match. As you say, though, England could quite comfortably have been 3-1 up, but if Kane had converted that penalty, there were other chances for England as well.

8:21Spain, equally in the opening 40 minutes or so, had innumerable chances to put the game perhaps beyond their host. But they conceded more goals in the space of about five minutes in this game than they did in the entire World Cup, Jules.

8:37Julien Laurens: Yeah, and to be fair, I think, again, like you said, Jimbo, even apart from the penalty, England could have scored at least another one. I mean, I thought the Kane goal, the Kukurela own goal for me, was a little bit lucky and sometimes you need to ride your luck against the Spanish defence like that that didn't look as solid as the one that we saw in the World Cup and that's probably because England I think went for them and when you go for them which France didn't do in the semi-final for example certainly what Argentina didn't do at all in the final I think you can rattle them the problem I think with this England team right now is they are not capable of playing like this for big parts of the game against a team of the quality of Spain because they left exposed defensively and Daniel is right defensively there's a lot of Rorys not just the back four slash five with the goalkeeper, but also I didn't think the Anderson-O 'Reilly double pivot.

9:25Julien Laurens: One, I didn't think that was the right choice from the beginning. I thought it was very naive from two-hole to put O 'Reilly there, you know, in a game like this. And then the other thing, really for me, sorry, Lewis Kelly and O 'Reilly are left back, and Lewis Kelly and Anderson in that double pivot. I thought that was a bit naive. I didn't think Lewis Kelly was ready for a game like this. And then you leave space in midfield everywhere, which Ferran Torres really on a better night would have benefited from and scored two goals. So the Lewis Kelly Anderson double pivot in front of already a shaky defence, I'm just not sure that was the right call from Tuchel tonight.

10:00Julien Laurens: All right. Duncan, we left you at the World Cup shaking with cold fury over Thomas Tuchel's decisions. How did you feel about his performance tonight? I think it was more a continuation of the third place playoff, wasn't it? It was a sort of jamboree back and forth. a lot of fun i mean to jules's point about the midfield i agree but i do think that at least with the midfield you can say well they've got declan rice to come back in the the point with the defense is that i mean brunthwaite came on has had a very good start to the season but there doesn't really seem to be much depth and much you know there's no one sort of coming through i think that you just think well they're gonna sort of england can build around them for the next sort five six years so and that was the issue throughout much of the world cup you know like England's defence just doesn't look sturdy and it's going to cost them.

10:51Unless they can score more goals than the opposition, which on tonight's evidence, maybe they can. Anthony Gordon looked excellent. Yeah, Gordon was great. I think Gordon and Bellingham were outstanding. Kane, pretty good. Obviously, the penalty miss is a mark against him. I thought Saka was a bit quiet. But yeah, I think Gordon was playing with a sort of pomp of someone who is now a Barcelona player and his finish. I mean, I did love the way Unai Simon was backpedalling because it's rare to see a goalkeeper backpedalling at that speed. But Gordon did really well to curl it in because it wasn't a massive area of the goal to hit, but he did it.

11:30And Bellingham just looked, I mean, a couple of his runs and then just as he's about to be tackled, just stabbing a pass through. He basically looked as good as he did at the World Cup. So, there are positives and it was an entertaining game. I think, you know, Sam Matafe said in commentary that there were no paper planes being thrown on the pitch, which is a very, you know, it's a good mark of a reasonable England game. So, yeah, I thought it was, I think it'd be easy to be negative about it, but I think there's enough positivity in there to, you know, let's just hope England don't go back-to-back relegations from the A-League and the Nations League.

12:03We don't want to be the international Norwich. Well, indeed not. Who would? Who would? But if you're Spain, though, that's 39 games unbeaten. What an extraordinary run they're on. Jules says if you go at them, they will wobble. Daniel, things seem to be humming along pretty well for the Spanish. Yeah, and if you go at them and you don't get it right, then they pass through you, right, which is the whole problem. I think if I was about to start the game, they'd have been three and a half a half time. So that is an issue. or 3-0 up before half-time, before England then potentially come back. But yeah, Ferran Torres' finishes, you saw with the Asbel's finish for the third that he just scores those chances.

12:48Two one-on-ones. One of them's a great save by Trafford. I think Torres thinks he's offside to sort of slightly half, makes half an effort to finish it. And the other one's just a really bad finish. And England were getting carved open at that point, not just because of the bad passes, although that's what caused two of the goals, but just, as Joel says, the spaces in midfield between central defence and midfield and the full in the fullbacks the fullback is great pushing on but it kind of blows my mind that we've got to a stage where we've got general quants who is a starting right back and nico o'reilly is our starting left back who has played in midfield i think every game for man city this season and that's because they like the security and defense of guardiol rather than having o'reilly there because i don't think he's a good enough international defender to be a full-back, to play in a four.

13:37So there's a lot to answer there. I still would like to see, you know, I know he's had pull-outs, but I'd still like to have seen Rhys James and Lewis Hall in this international break. I think that's where we have to go. But yeah, as Duncan says, it's Branthwaite, he's the next cab off the rank and his fitness is not dependable and he's not played very much for England. And if Esri Konsa isn't in the Arsenal team in three months, which is quite possible England have got a real battle to find starting central defenders. Yeah, to Daniel's point, I mean, Trent and Lewis Hall were on the bench. Right.

14:11Surely, they're just there, Thomas. You like making substitutions. Use them. I mean, I guess we will see, like we are going to see, he spoke about this international break being really weird before, and he's like, I think he's going to split it up into two twos effectively. So I think we will see that in the third and the fourth game. And my hope is that by doing that, we then kind of end the international break with this freshness of like, actually, this looked really good. This is more options for the future. I don't think we'll get that in central defence, but we might get it everywhere else.

14:39OK. There were one or two choices that Tuchel made regarding those kind of two squad, well, regarding that two squad approach. One of which was the fact that Jordan Pickford didn't start in goal, but instead it was James Trafford. And he performed well, would you say? Yeah, I think he didn't, you know, it couldn't be fought with either of the goals. I think his distribution is just a level above Pickford. I mean, when Pickford first got into the England team, it was basically, you know, he was probably the best ball-playing English goalkeeper, but he's sort of been superseded a little. And I think Trafford is definitely the sort of the new high-water mark for an English goalkeeper that can play with both feet some quite good passes.

15:24And he did that on a few occasions. The first goal, certainly no fault of his, possibly Spain's second neither, but some nice saves in there as well. Tuchel, prior to the game, oh sorry, Daniel. I was going to say, on the Pickford-Trafford thing, I think there's two things. Firstly, I think Dean Henderson's really unlucky that he was injured for this break, because I think he's one that's challenged Pickford more. But there's also this really weird pattern with England. It might be pure coincidence, but Pickford has never conceded three in 90 minutes for England. So in the last five times England have conceded three goals, it's been when Pickford hasn't been in goal.

15:56Now, so I don't know if that's just a case of getting used to a new goalkeeper behind the fence because Pickford has been there for so long. And as I say, it might just be pure coincidence, but five feels quite a lot for it to be a coincidence. So yeah, the only time he's conceded three, I think, was against the Dutch in the Nations League, which went to extra time. So yeah, it's just an odd one for England on that front.

16:17Julien Laurens: I think it made no sense, by the way, to put Trafford in for Pickford. I just don't understand the logic at all. I'm not sure what Tuchel was trying to do or to achieve here. We've seen Everton have got the two best defensive records in the Premier League this season, so take your pick. Yeah, but you play the world champions, European champions, just play your best goalkeeper. Why are you changing? Who else changed? Donnarumma played, Mignon played, all the number ones played in this first game. Same for Testegen, same for Djokovic Costa. I don't know, we can go through all the teams. Just nobody put their number two, or I agree with Dahlia, number three goalkeepers on the first game of this Nations League.

16:54Julien Laurens: And none of them played Spain. So for me, it made no sense whatsoever. Interesting. Do you feel the result would have been different with pickers on the field, Jules? I mean, I certainly, I just don't think he helps already a shaky defense. And we saw the mistakes from O 'Reilly and Gehi, etc. I would not have to go back on them. I think he's, yeah, I think he's strange when you change them from being used to pick foot behind and Pickford is the shoutest, shoutest you say? The one that shouts the most, goalkeeper, far more than Trafford and also who has, I don't know how many more caps than Trafford anyway.

17:29Julien Laurens: So for me, I don't know what would have happened had Pickford started this game and played the whole game, but it's just one of those things that Tuchel does that makes no sense whatsoever. All right. Scold Trafford is never nice to hear. That's very nice. Matt Voll saying Trafford was leakier than his roof. Yeah. Cole Palmer, not able to make it for fitness reasons. Thomas Tuchel, speaking quite frankly about his disappointment over that. Were you surprised at that? I was impressed by that I'm not a Tuchel fan at the moment but I liked that he made that stance maybe there's a reason for Cole Palmer not to be there there's no need to get conspiratorial about it but even if he has got an injury this is a massive squad because it's a four games and it's immediately following a World Cup and Tuchel has come out and said I can't pick lots of number 10s that's why I didn't pick Morgan Gibbs-White and so for Gibbs-White to get on And being on the left with Rodgers on the right, with Bellingham still on the pitch, it was like, these are all my guys now.

18:34You're going to get three more games to show me what you can do. And he's right that Palmer won't get that chance. And he doesn't... Look, if he's the best player in the Premier League between now and November, I'm sure he'll be in the next squad. But if he's not the best player in England, then he won't be. And that's as it should be. You don't get to pick and choose when we've got... We are blessed in that position more than any other. OK. We haven't mentioned Mark Cucuré's own goal stroke Harry Kane's goal. That was an unusual moment and one that I think was warmly welcomed by a lot of people watching, Kukurela being the figure that he is.

19:08Do you think Spain were fully focused on this match coming off yet another trophy in the summer?

19:15Julien Laurens: I think so. And I think, again, they won it with the bench. And, you know, Baena coming on, scores like five minutes later. Oya Zabal coming on, score. They won the World Cup also with their bench and the squad. there's a Luis de la Fuente interview in L 'Equipe today, which is really good, to be fair. And he says in it something really nice. He says, every time at the World Cup we played against somebody, they said, oh, it's Francis Mbappé. It's Portugal's Cristiano. It's Argentina's Messi. And for us, for Spain, probably because also Lamine was not having a great tournament. He said it was, for us, it's Spain's 26 players, basically.

19:51Julien Laurens: And he said, we really like Sparta and the 300 Spartans. And I think it's true. And again, today it shows. And I don't want to go hard again on Tuchel, but Tuchel's substitution is the outside of even the Pickford-Trufford one. The rest, I just don't understand really. And I think, again, he's put to shame by what De La Fuente has done in terms of coaching and substitution to all. And maybe it's easier because he's worked so many times for De La Fuente and that bench is very strong and they know exactly what they do. I think De La Fuente also said in that interview that since he took over, he's won 70 % of the game with Spain thanks to one of those finishers, like they like to call them, somebody off the bench.

20:33Julien Laurens: That's an incredible ratio. Incredible ratio. And Tuchel is nowhere near that, obviously. And I thought today, again, some of the substitutions were either too late, the wrong ones. Taking players off that probably should have stayed on the pitch a bit longer and the other around too. And it's just, yeah, I think Spain were focused. I think they wanted it. I think it looked like Lamine wanted to shine and at moments you saw how brilliant he is anyway, which we knew, but it's always a good reminder. But yeah, and even if Spain were not that focused, they were still too good and too strong for England anyway.

21:04Okay, a game that might have been about Thomas Tuchel re-establishing his credentials, building more confidence in his position as England manager. Are you more or less pro Tuchel post this game, Daniel? It's really weird in that we're in this kind of bizarre feast or famine situation where, it's either a game like tonight or the third fourth place playoff where it's just two it's just swinging haymakers and seeing what lands or it's this really reserved sitting back and defending and you know i said before about this kind of huge spectrum and trying to find the middle of it that is what's going to happen between now and 2028 but he's been in the job quite a long time for him to still be doing that for that spectrum to still be so wide that it's either chaos ball and chances at both ends or it's trying to shut the game down to a zero chance game it's kind of odd that we're still in that position and it would be really interesting to know where like where he sees the strength line because I still think he thinks that sitting back was the right thing to do I know he has had to calm that down because it was met with such opprobrium from the public but I still think he thinks that was the way to go because he thinks that Bellingham is a magic player who can produce a moment and when you see us playing like that if that's our best defense we won't win a tournament with it because it will just get pulled apart in in too many moments i think that um foreign england managers of which there have now been a few kind of get too caught up with what england means and what england's style is and they can't they overthink it and i think to daniel's point that he's yeah he is sort of half the time he's talking about DNA and English players will never pass the ball.

22:43England had a higher pass completion rate than Spain in tonight's game, for what it's worth. And then half the time he's sort of searching for an identity that maybe he doesn't really need to. You've got lots of good players. Just shake them into a team that can win games. There you go.

22:59Julien Laurens: By the way, I know we've gone long on England, but I'm not happy with Harry Kane tonight, by the way. Oh. And I was not happy in the semi-final. or he didn't play the game against France at the World Cup. But tonight, the goal is a lucky goal. I'm sorry. The rest is two touches in the box. One is the header for the goal. The other one is the penalty. The other thing is, that's it. There's no more shots on target after that goal that, again, is lucky. There's nine passes in 17 minutes that he played or something like that. For me, it's just not enough. And I know he's had a great year and I know he wants the Ballon d 'Or and the whole of England want him to Ballon d 'Or.

23:33Julien Laurens: And I get that. But tonight, Hurricane was just not good enough. and he was not good enough against Argentina either. Whether it's his own fault, his own making, whether it's the team around him, whether that kind of gung-ho style of it's chaos, let's attack, let's defend, everybody runs, doesn't suit him because I don't think that suits him. And again, it's maybe not one for now because we've gone long already on England. I just don't think he was very good tonight. Right. Plus the penalty as well. Daniel? I was going to say, I will say, with that brilliant move for Gordon's goal, I was watching it, but I saw this sort of blonde hair flapping, steaming through, and I thought, is that Harry Kane running faster than I've ever seen him run before?

24:15And I was like, no, of course it's not. Harry Kane is 50 yards behind. Exactly. Well, there you go. England beaten by Spain. They now face trips to Czechia and then Croatia, Tuesday and Saturday. Those are two matches before taking the Czechs here in London on Tuesday week. Very good. Slovenia 0, Scotland 0. We don't need to talk about that one further, Jules.

24:41Julien Laurens: I was a bit harsh because Scotland did create some chances, to be fair. I like Pocignoli, but I was disappointed by the Nini draw against a team like Slovenia, who was really, really not good. 17 shots to Slovenia's four. Yeah, it was one-sided. They'll be facing Switzerland. This is in League B of the Nations League on Tuesday night. Next up, let's get on to Friday's most important scoreline. Man City 1, Independent Panel 114.

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26:37This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Olly Kay and the very best football writers around. Yeah, Friday brought some news, huh? Broken at The Athletic by David Ornstein. Of course, Manchester City found guilty on 114 of the 115 charges relating to breaches of the Premier League's financial regulations. What punishments they will receive for this, we don't know. They are, of course, going to be appealing. But although the last time they got sanctions for charges relating to their activities in that period, which was back in 2020 when UEFA gave them, I think, a two-year European ban over financial irregularities, they did successfully appeal that.

27:26This time around, it looks like there's a lot less wiggle room for them, or at least so people who are knowledgeable about these things say. But for what we've got at the moment, first of all, we've finally got a verdict. How incredible is that? Yeah, I mean, it's been going on five, seven, however many years. We have got a verdict and we've got a definitive verdict. I think that's important. The appeal will take a long, long time. One of the things that was mentioned during this case is that Manchester City basically prevaricated and delayed this case as much as they could. I don't expect that's going to change during an appeals process.

28:11We then get the question of the sanctioning and how long that takes. So anyone who thinks like, you know, thank goodness that's all over, strap in for series two and three. But yeah, we did get a definitive verdict and we got a verdict that the Premier League pushed for. and the Premier League pushed for against some pretty extraordinarily deep pockets legal-wise. So I understand the frustration in how long this has taken, and I think that's probably more to do with the judicial system than the Premier League. But kind of fair play to the Premier League, because this was them staking their reputation on the line.

28:45And also with the complete knowledge that if they won the case, the Premier League's reputation also takes a massive hit because of what they are trying to prove in their case. So, yeah, it's a victory. It feels like it's a victory for nobody, basically. It feels like for football supporters of every other club, there's this kind of what-if thing. You obviously get people like Rio Ferdinand and David Herr coming out and saying, well, how many titles have I won now and all this? You get the possibility of counterclaims and suing from other clubs. It's just going to get messier, I think. We don't know how long it's going to take for them to appeal.

29:19You're suggesting they'll take as long as is possible. what about the sanctions the announcement the announcement of the sanctions is there any idea of when we'll get to know the entity of that no there isn't and there's there's not even um there's not even full knowledge yet of whether that will come before or after the appeal uh and to shoot so sporting sanctions right are difficult in that if you if you impose you cannot oppose a sanction before the appeal because the imposing of the sanction effectively makes the appeal none of void anyway. If you relegate Manchester City and then say, well, we'll put you back if you win, it doesn't work like that.

29:56So that's why this has to run and run and run, because it has to go to the nth degree, the end of the full process before those sanctions can hit. I don't think, personal view, that there should be any upper limit on those sanctions. I'm not sure that there will be an enforced relegation or an expulsion, but I would like to think there would at least be enough of a points deduction to make relegation a formality. choose.

30:22Julien Laurens: Yeah, I mean, I agree with Daniel completely in the sense that I think the Premier League won and lost in the same time because the last few years, the years that this case referred to have been tarnished. So yeah, we can joke and Rio Ferdinand can joke and we saw Lukaku teasing Giju Danaruma in the game between Italy and Belgium saying, you know, shush because you owe me two titles and that will continue continue obviously until the sanction for how long I don't know but it will happen all the time to City fans to City players to ex-City players I don't know how people like Omar Barada for example feel now who were at the club at the time and now have left the club and we never speak about it well you don't think we speak about it either you also wonder who knew and who knew what I think it's an absolute mess to be fair but at least like Daniel said at least the verdict is there we know.

31:18Julien Laurens: I think it's something that a lot of, if you'd seen the emails that obviously started this investigation eight years ago, I think City can say as much as they want we have irrefutable proof that we did nothing wrong. If you read the emails, you understood and if you know how Roberto Mancini was paid, for example and loads of things like that, I think it was pretty obvious that there was a bit of dodginess in some of the things they did. So now we know that it's the truth. You mentioned of various people affected. Even Noel Gallagher shouted out in the street. Noel responding to Friday's announcement saying, if you're telling me that because of some sponsorship deal that was signed nearly 15 years ago, the four in the row and Istanbul and all of those things now mean nothing and the club should be burned to the ground and its supporters banished to North Korea, then you're being hysterical.

32:10So, Duncan? Noel Gallagher leaning into nostalgia. Wow. Yeah. um yeah i mean as someone whose other sport is cycling i mean i'd obviously see a lot of people and we've just heard there's some players saying about stripping titles reallocating titles doesn't really work like you know the arsenal liverpool or manchester united winning the league in that way you don't get the joy from that i think if you get some joy i don't think so I don't like oh your number of leagues one magically ticks up to another one and the cities goes down yeah but I mean who looks at the other than me who's looking at the Wikipedia page for titles won every day not that many people I mean cycling there's the parallel with Lance Armstrong he's seven titles which were taken away and not reassigned so that's an interesting case I think because everyone else was on the gear as well well maybe we've got some of them I mean obviously Floyd Landis the year after Lance Armstrong Armstrong was stripped and Oscar Pereira was given it.

33:10Right. But the thing with Armstrong was, like City, at the moment, the sanctions came a long way down the line. Now, they were stripped from Armstrong. He doesn't accept that. He lies around in Austin with his yellow jerseys on his wall. But I think now, as the longer time has gone on, people now are sort of veering back to, well, you know, on the road he won them, so he probably is the winner. So I think even if City was stripped, I think down the line people would then be like, well Aguero's goal was pretty memorable you know Yoya Turi was very good in 2013-14 they probably were the winners so there's no satisfactory outcome really at all Yeah it is a difficult situation Daniel was kind of touching on this as well it's the least bad option at the moment the fact that we have got a verdict but when you talk about taking the titles away and whether that gives satisfaction I think of Calciopoli which although a different set of accusations did see a predominant club in the land being stripped of titles.

34:08In that case, they were. Two of them were given to Inter, who had been their closest challenger in two of the years involved. And I think the Inter as a club and also their supporters enjoyed that hugely. It wasn't the same as winning it on the pitch, but it still was a satisfaction to them. The other thing that was kind of curious about that was that although Juve were enormously upset, outraged, whatever, to have been, as they felt, victimised by this inquiry, they felt that everyone was at it and they just happened to be caught with the phone taps. You had this thing which is perhaps typical of football fans where everybody just lived their own version of events.

34:52So Juve went down, but that kind of relegation and that victimhood then got kind of woven into the kind of fabric of the Tiforzeria, the folklore of being a Juve fan. And that's now part of what makes them Juventini. And they're back to an extent. But everybody else just went on and kind of went, oh, yeah, we always knew that they were cheating, they were putting pressure on. So people just kind of went on. I guess everybody does week to week as football fans, just living their own version of who's right and who's wrong. I don't know. Oh, Daniel. I was going to say, and it should be said that Manchester City have engineered that amongst their own supporters.

35:33You know, this statement from Caldoon Almarac today talks about, you know, kind of effectively we've done nothing wrong. We're still fighting for this. And you can see the replies from fans saying we are, you know, we're not taking this line down. We're going to fight. We will still be innocent, et cetera. You do sort of have to take a step back and remind yourself that this is a football club playing football matches. I know I'm at great risk here of making my own career sound meaningless, but you don't have to back your club on absolutely everything. I have seen lots of City fans who have said this is a shameful day for our club and people should, at some point, there needs to be a moment of reckoning where those people who did things wrong, even if they don't like the verdict, accept the verdict.

36:16That's my point. You don't have to like it, but at least have the decency if an independent panel has come up with a result to accept it. There will be a lot of people who feel a lot of clubs spend a lot of money and people used to spend all the money and Chelsea did lots of stuff. But, Chils, you touched on what's in the emails and some of the ways in which City were demonstrated to have been circumventing the rules, financial doping, whatever you want to call it. This is a particularly egregious case.

36:44Julien Laurens: Yeah, I think Arsene Wenger used, I think he was the first one to use that. you know, financial doping, talking about Citi. I think it was from Citi Air, that. It was it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He already there, you know, which I think is absolutely spot on in this case. And again, Citi can appeal and, you know, whatever the appeal will bring, we will see at the time in three months, six months, another year, you know, whatever. We're waiting long enough. We can wait a bit more. But that is just, that's just the fact. Where the Citi fell down, it's okay if the brother of the owner of the club fancy investing in his brother's company.

37:18Julien Laurens: it's just that went against the rules so whether you if the rules were not done for you sure where you thought you could not break the rules but go around the rules maybe there were still rules in place and you could not do a lot of the things that clearly those emails shows your own emails by the way from your own people with their own Manchester City email addresses and things like that have clearly put out there that they were doing so this is it I think it's sad if you're a City fan and you believe the club when they said we are innocent, we did nothing wrong. And to some extent, you've been lied to.

37:54Julien Laurens: I did a show on Wednesday with a massive City fan who said, I believe them. That was obviously before Friday. I believe when they said we're innocent. I believe when they said that they did nothing wrong. But if one day it's proven that they did actually wrong, this is it, it's over. I won't go. I would feel like they lied to me for all those years. And I think a lot of City fans would also feel like that. Whether they want to fight or not, it doesn't matter. they were lied to. They were told we did nothing wrong and actually people have found that you did something wrong. Duncan, I know you want to come in here, but the question that comes from that is if that's how the fans feel.

38:29I wonder how some of the players who just arrived, players who just renewed contracts there, Enzo Moresca, etc., will feel the kind of assurances that they might have received and what this means for City's future. But over to you, Duncan. Yeah, I just think this sense of kind of not knowing what the truth is anymore in terms of like what we've watched in the last 15 years is unsettling. I can understand. There's a very good, Matt Rendell wrote a book about Marco Pantani and he actually, obviously, you know, Pantani's career in cycling that time had some, you know, decisions that were made down the line.

39:02But he wrote a really good line, which was, watching contemporary sport means acknowledging surface reality as an interim state prone to re-evaluation even far in the future. And I think that's kind of where we are. Right. It's like a colossal VAR, but spanning kind of eight years or so. Yeah. To your point, James, about people, about supporters and people in general now kind of living their own truths. And this doesn't just apply to Manchester City or football or even sport. That's why, to my mind, the stripping the titles and stuff is less important than the future punishment, because you can live your own truth in the past.

39:38That's fine. You can say what you want. But if Manchester City get a hundred point deduction, you cannot pretend that hasn't happened because that has factually applied. So that's why that is more important to me as a football supporter than taking away titles in the past. I want to see their future impacted, not their past, because everything snowballed from what they did. So the team they have now is a result of winning, indirectly winning that first title.

40:06Julien Laurens: Well, that's why I think they won't be stripped of the title. I think they would keep them. And I think it would tarnish the Premier League. And I don't think the Premier League won them. I don't think the Premier League and it's not the Premier League decision by the way the sanction will have nothing to do with the Premier League it's not the Premier League who will decide the sanction but I think the Premier League would not want City to be stripped of their title because I think that will tarnish even more the Premier League's image and what this means and the biggest league and the best league in the world and all of that because all those years then will be tainted forever if at least they keep those titles and it's not great I mean I'm laughing I don't know why I'm laughing but Daniel is right if you if, okay, the heavy fine means nothing either because they've got a lot of money.

40:47Julien Laurens: But if they're relegated, if it's a strong point addiction, if they can't sign any players for the next two years, I don't know, whatever it is, I think stripping titles brings you nothing. And, you know, I don't think it changes anything apart from, again, being very negative for the Premier League itself. The rest is, I think, far more important if you really want to punish City more than stripping those titles that they want, you know, the Aguero moment, the Pellegrini, all of that. And you have to do it with points deductions. People saying, I'll just put them in League Two. Why would that happen?

41:19Why would the EFL suddenly, you know, where does a team from League Two go to fit them in? You have to punish, give them points deductions so they suffer the relegation. So this season, so then they go down. Yeah, maybe the next season as well, and the season after that. So we're waiting to hear when the sanctions will be announced. We're waiting to see what the timeline might be for Man City's appeal. Daniel, you also touched on one other thing which we should mention, which is the notion of other clubs bringing legal action. Several Premier League sides have already, I think, made it clear that they intend to follow up on that possibility.

41:55We have seen the precedence. Is it Burnley who sued successfully Everton, who were found guilty of financial irregularities, and Burnley made the case that their own relegation was as a result or was certainly Everton's financial irregularities were a contributing factor in that and were awarded, I think,£35 million worth of damages, which is still pending. So the precedent is there. You've got Man United and Liverpool. United potentially for two Premier League titles. Stoke City, who lost an FA Cup. Daniel, you even mentioned Sunderland, who missed out on the League Cup, would have got into Europe in 2014-15 as a result of that, would have had potentially an entirely different trajectory over the years that followed, instead of relegation and financial disarray.

42:51Two years later, they were in League One, yeah. Look, that sounds slightly comical, and I heard from City fans who were like, that's a joke, you can't do that. And the point is... He's lost points to City over this period, effectively as a case. Rewind to 1888 and just wipe everything and go again. Preston, Preston had it good for too long for me. Reverse alphabetical order, Duncan. It's the only way now for you. I am. Yeah. And it does sound comical, right? But then that's the whole point. You put on one of these strands, dozens, and the whole thing unravels. And that's why that's what's so unsettling about all this is that you watch those things.

43:28And, you know, on some level, we watch it and assume that what we're watching is set in stone. like the result is the result the league title winners are the league title winners the Champions League winners we assume that you can't reverse engineer anything and this suggests that what we were watching wasn't right and if I was, you know, the Sunderland example the Watford example, the Stoke I think is a lesser but if you're a team that missed out on the Champions League I think, yeah, you know, you've got someone like Southampton who finished three points behind Manchester City Manchester City qualified for the Champions League Southampton didn't again a few years later Southampton go down you think well that summer Southampton had to sell Jose Fonte and Sadio Mane so obviously the whole future of the club shifts I'm aware that making Southampton an argument for benefiting from cheating is a bad for right now but yeah it's it's it kind of fries your brain as soon as you start to look at it yeah it's scary the notion that if people were to start I mean it just spirals beyond any kind of reasonable parameters of the league still working together at this point, isn't it?

44:33I know. That's why you kind of just have to say it happened. It happened. I mean, Marseille have still got their Champions League win, right? Yeah. And everyone kind of looks at that with a slight raised eyebrow. But they were the first French team to win the Champions League and no one can take that away from them. If they only have one, I don't know. You slightly joked, James, about the VAR thing, but that is where you have to get to. You have to treat it like the biggest refereeing decision ever. and you say, well, our goal should have stood, so we should have won that trophy, so blah, blah, blah.

45:02You can do that with every club at every moment in their history. Of course you can. And it's not a nice thing to do. But yeah, again, to repeat the point, that's why the punishment has to be effective, significant and future-based, not past-based. OK. You don't think we're going to get the decisions sorted out this season, Daniel, by the sound of it? If we get it, if this is done before you are 20-28, I'll be happy. Wow. Wow. Jules, what do you think? Are you any more optimistic?

45:31Julien Laurens: No, I mean Daniel knows much better than me. But he's taken long already. I think he will take long and I think City will slow it down as much as they can and do what they've done. What would they change anyway for the last eight years? So I would love it to be done before the end of the season, but I completely understand that it's probably unlikely. It's going to make the resumption of the Premier League so weird because like City have won five out of five. They go to Anfield in the next game, which is good timing by the fair play to the victory computer for that. That's the only entity that knew what was coming.

46:09Julien Laurens: Wow. It's obviously not a coincidence that this whole thing is leaked or revealed, let's put it that way, in the longest international break we've ever had, right? Instead of through the season. There's no, nobody can tell me this is not on purpose. Very possibly. I would say it happening in a break of a season would be good, probably good for everybody, including the Premier League, right? If it's done before, I think it happening next summer would be a lot easier in terms of like City start on minus whatever it is, 80 or whatever, is a lot cleaner for the Premier League. I think to know where everybody stands at the start of the season because otherwise you have a situation where clubs as has happened with PSR where clubs are not sure whether their position and points total is actually right with six seven games to go in the season which happened with Forrest and Everton so that we that does get too messy I think

47:29We'll be right back. weight and size restrictions and availability. Terms at lowes.com slash shipping terms. Hello, I'm Monica Reinagle, host of the Nutrition Diva podcast. Summer is here and with it, the hot and sticky weather. A morning working in the garden or maybe on the golf course can leave you more depleted than you realize. And plain water isn't always the most efficient way to restore the balance. That's where liquid IV comes in. Its science-backed formula is clinically proven to hydrate faster than water alone. Whether you're exercising, playing outside, or simply surviving a summer heat wave, it's an easy way to stay hydrated.

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49:45You're listening to The Totally Football Show with James Richardson. Now with you four times a week. Keep up to date with us on Insta and enjoy seeing glorious Technicolor on YouTube at The Totally Show. Friday's announcement was huge and seismic and all those things. Only the first small step towards finally getting this whole story settled, if it ever will be. With that in mind, let's park it for now and quickly return to all that international football that's been happening. We'll finish off with a quick roundup of some of the big stories. because there are so many storylines over the last few days with managers coming in, nations trying to reboot.

50:22A lot of that going on in Group A1 or League A1, Jules, which saw Zinedine Zidane, after so many years out of management, taking control of France or taking over as France manager. How did it go away to Turkey, briefly?

50:37Julien Laurens: Yeah, they won 1-0. It was not the best of games, although I thought they did well. He's changed a few things. So Mbappé moved from the number nine position that he's been playing for the national team for a long time now, onto the left-hand side. We had Dembele, who moved from out wide to the number nine position. Olyse was the 10th of the World Cup. He moved back to the right wing, where he plays with Bayern Munich, for example. We had Ryan Cechi, who played in the midfield three, and I thought was actually quite good. And in some moments, sorry, it looked really good, and it's only the beginning of the journey.

51:14Julien Laurens: There were other slight issues, I thought, a bit defensively, but I think Zidane was happy. Although he missed the start of La Marseillaise, maybe because it's just new for him, but by the time he came out of the dressing room in Izmet, where the game was played like an hour and a half away from Istanbul, the Marseillaise had started already. He said the protocol was a bit short and I got caught and he didn't like it because he was so excited to be there and missing the Marseillaise for him would have hurt. Oh, there you go. He's going to be missing Kylian Mbappe for France's next fixture. How bad is the knee injury?

51:48Do we know?

51:49Julien Laurens: It's a hyperextension. You say that in English as well? Hyper extension, yeah. So it should not be too, too bad. I think he would probably be bad. There's big games for Real Madrid. They play Villarreal. They play Roma in the Champions League. They would be the Clasico not long after the international break. We returned from the international break. But yeah, he played with the new boots, in famous boots that we talked a lot about. and I don't know if there's a link between the injury and the new boot or not. But certainly it only lasted 55 minutes before coming off after scoring the only goal of the game.

52:18Hyper extension, or as we call it in England, grand designs. Very nice, very nice. France's next game is against Belgium. Belgium, who have recently appointed Marc van Bommel as their manager. And what a great start he had. His Belgian side were away to Italy, who'd welcomed back Roberto Mancini, the architect of their Euro triumph of 2021. Other things happened subsequently between Mancini and Italy, but he's back with them now. But it was not a good restart for Roberto. They lost 2-0 at the Stadio Olimpico. Joseph, you see this one as well. They look better in the second half, but still. Disjointed, dispirited, all sorts of other things.

53:02Two slaps in the face, Gazeta called it. The crowd booed them at halftime. and then at full-time as well.

53:09Julien Laurens: Yeah, yeah. I thought there's so much work to be done there. And whether Mancini is the right guy for it or not, whether it's just a lack of talent, we saw some new faces, we saw some old faces. I think we saw also a good Belgium team post-Rudy Garcia era with Van Bommel in terms of intensity, Mika Goss scoring the first goal quite early on. I thought there was a lot of really good, positive things from Belgium and actually quite a good weekend for the Van Bommel family. Because as you said, But, you know, Dad Mark won for his first game in China or Belgium. And Son Ruben gave a wonderful assist to Cody Gagpo to score the equaliser against Germany in the Netherlands-Germany game.

53:45Yeah, with the outside of his boot curling it past all the defenders. Glorious stuff. That game, by the way, that's only the second time the Italy-Belgian game, only the second time in the last four decades that Italy have lost a home game by a margin of two goals without scoring. And the only other time that occurred was in some random friendly with Croatia. So, yes, problems there, as you say, Jules. Whether or not Mancini is the man, there is a major, major shortage of talent for the Azuri. Well, Netherlands won, Germany won. It finished in the game, which featured that incredible Ruben van Bommel assist.

54:23He's the third generation of van Bommel to turn out for Netherlands. Beyond the goals, so Medsha with the Germany goal half an hour in and then right at the death, the Cody Gakpo equaliser. Beyond that, did we see any signs of club football, of Xavi Barcelona or Dutch heritage football from those two sides, Daniel? I was going to say, my main takeaway from the game to make this purely Premier League focused is that Brian Brobby went off with a pretty nasty looking hamstring injury, which had Sunderland fans very worried. Dan Ballard then went off during Northern Ireland's game. as well with a similar looking injury.

55:06And Kai Havertz went off with, again, similar looking injury. So kind of three or four days after the load management jokes and players getting a bit of grief for pulling out. Yeah, Sunderland fans will certainly wish that Broby and Ballard had, because that's two kind of, well, it's two pillars of the spine of the team. That's a horrible mixed metaphor, but you take the point. They are important players, particularly Broby, because he's been, obviously scored a hatchet against City literally before going on international duty so yeah that's that's a worry for them Sunderland I think have got nine games between the two international breaks three in Europe one in the cup five in the Premier League and if he's missing for those then their whole season shifts well there was controversy due to Broby's injury because Germany scored while he was laying down asking for treatment which you know as painful as a hamstring injury is the referee isn't beholden to stop the game for that so yeah but van dyke piled in to the germany celebrations it was a brilliant game because obviously we know the enmity between the two sides but they just the whole game was just back and forth and i think you know javi and clott both looked delighted at the end just to kind of been involved with such a such an event it was it was it was just one of the best most fun it felt to me like watching an international on terrestrial TV in the late 90s or something.

56:30It was just really enjoyable. You're loving the Nations League, aren't you, Duncan? Between that and this 3-2 tonight. Well, my theory is that when the Nations League started, it was really good. And then you had all the shuffling from the relegation. So the last one wasn't as, it was all a bit strange. Right. Whereas now everyone's kind of gone back to roughly what it was at the start and it's good again. Excellent. So ban relegation. Excellent. Currently topping the Germany and Netherlands group are Greece, who Apollo Ador was tatting his dark horses in our Thursday show. They won 2-1 in Serbia.

57:03Dubikas with a late winner. Soly scored.

57:06Julien Laurens: Isak scored, by the way, for Sweden as well. Gokhara scored. Haaland, you mentioned, scored. A lot of Premier League players were really good so far. Excellent. Erling Haaland got two goals as Norway beat Denmark 3-2 in another exciting game in this very entertaining Nations League. less goal-tastic was Portugal's clash with Wales which saw just the one goal Jean-Felix with that and Cristiano Ronaldo with a new hairdo at least new to me yeah, new hairdo, you're right he had a goal disallowed he had one goal disallowed, he missed a number of other chances one of which saw him inveigling against somebody I can only imagine himself because it was like the mind was willing but the body just no longer had it.

57:54And yeah, I hope he can get his thousandth goal and that we can conclude his glorious career. I think we've got the 2034 World Cup to aim for. No, he said that he's not going to be coming back, but yes. He said 2030, but 2034. Excellent. All right, well, loads of excitement's coming up. Denmark are going to be taking on Wales on Sunday night. There's little things. Things are happening on Sunday. Have you got, Jules?

58:23Julien Laurens: Can we just give a shout out to the Charles family? I mean, the brothers especially, because with Northern Ireland, Pierce Charles have a penalty from Croazcalia, and then Shea Charles scored the winner in the 97th minute or something. So again, we talked about a lot of families so far, like the Van Bommel one, but for the Charles family, it was a very, very good weekend as well. There you go. Very good. Excellent. Anything you'd like to throw in of a heartwarming note, Daniel? Absolutely not, never. Excellent. Well, you have a great time with your family on Sunday. I would like to mention a former international and former Premier League marksman, Danny Ings, who scored in his debut for Wickham today.

59:02Of course, of course. Who was it against? It was against Reading. The new manager? No, there's no new manager yet, but Wickham are just signing players without a manager, but it seems to be working fine. Autonomous collective. We are.

59:19Julien Laurens: Did Oldham Athletic, did you see, I mean, it's not because it's my video, but it's a great video of Ousmane Dembele and Oldham Athletic and all this viral stuff. Did they win today? They lost 4-1. They lost 4-1. I'll tell Ousmane, he won't be happy now. Can I just ask, Ousmane Dembele, Oldham Athletic, what? Yes, we did an interview with Ousmane and Graz Kelly. Okay. But the producer of the shoot, Paul, at some point we asked him, or who's your club and I think Ousmane is expecting a Man United because Paul is from Manchester or Man City and Paul said do you know Oldham Athletic and Ousmane said Oldham Athletic and then put his hand in his face in his hand and said like yeah he knows it because he plays football manager a lot and he was like yeah so it was and this has become a little bit like viral between PSG and Dembele and Oldham Athletic and all of that and they played today obviously and I yeah I didn't check and Ousmane asked me I'm absolutely battered at home by Salford.

1:00:18So that's okay.

1:00:19Julien Laurens: I'll tell him it's not a good omen. There you go. Fantastic. Fantastic. I think that wraps it up for this evening. We're going to be back. We did actually a special Zidane Totally Extra. Jules, you were part of that. That's out right now. If you fancy something with your Sunday morning stroll or whatever, we're going to be doing another Totally Extra on Monday, which is going to be out on Tuesday, all about Cesc Fabregasque, by the way. And then we'll return with a regular Totally show on Thursday, by which time there'll be all sorts of other things to discuss, not least another England performance, this one away in what we used to call the Czech Republic.

1:01:01And I'm still not sure of the pronunciation of its current nomenclature. What is it, Jules? Czechia. Czechia. And I really should. Good. That's it for tonight. That's the message. Daniel, thank you so much for being with us. Jules, thank you as well. Merci, mon brave. Thank you so much, Duncan. Thank you, everyone who followed us late on a Saturday night. We'll be back with you soon for now from all of us here. It's goodbye.

1:01:31You've been listening to The Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. For other great podcasts just like this one, including the Athletic FC and our dedicated club podcasts, search for The Athletic in all the usual places. We're also at The Totally Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

1:01:58The Athletic FC.

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