England are European champions again. Plus Gibbs-White stays, Isak goes?

0:00This summer, JBL is on a mission to help you tune into what you love. Audiobooks, podcasts, and everything in between with JBL's live headphones. These headphones are perfect because of their high-res sound, making your fave stories and voices come alive with so much detail, exactly the way they were made to be heard. Plus, they have 80 hours of battery life, so you can binge without pressing pause all summer long. Find your pair at JBL.com.

0:30The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

0:40totally football show today come back queens of europe come back with the title we salute kelly hannah and her sisters and all the girls as the lionesses bring the pride home then from spot kicks to not spot fixing why pack it up won't have to pack it in robbie keen memories we've got them and we talk transfers with Isaac and Gibbs White and all the rest. Lots more of that kind of thing in this Toggle for more show.

1:25We got bullied. We got absolutely bullied. It wasn't good enough.

1:36It's very clear this England side are physically miles off him.

1:47They've absolutely punished us. There's been no learnings from this team. We never give up, so you know until the referee whistles, as a final whistle, you know you have an opportunity to score a ball. Sits the defender down. Achimang! Goky, the skillset. Achimang! The fight with the heart, the team spirit that we have, whatever's going to happen, we're ready for it. Chloe Kelly to win it. And save the sand, and the rebound is forcing! I'm so grateful to wear this badge. Chloe Kelly. And I'm so proud to be English. It's staying home. And still the European champions. The Lionesses go back to back.

2:37Well, Monday the 28th of July. Listener, welcome to another Tobey Football Show. It's the Monday after England's Lionesses retained the Euro title and we've got Daniel Storey, Matt Davis-Adams and Natalie Jedra of Sky Sports here with us. Hello, everyone. Hello. Hey. Good morning. Also, Johnny is very, very shortly from Switzerland. Charlotte Harper, who's all up in that Euro final biz. a rollercoaster she describes it I think we'd all go along with that England's tournament yeah I mean I you try to say a rollercoaster I think until Sara Paraluelo stepped up to her penalty I think that was the only two minutes in the last month I thought England might win the tournament so it was it was a rollercoaster with a fair number of lows I accept that the penalty wins were highs but they just sort of felt like delaying the inevitable for most of the tournament until yeah that ultimate high does a roller coaster stop 500 feet in the air probably not but that's that's where england's tournament stopped charlotte harper joins us now hi charlotte good morning jimbo how are you yeah very well we're just discussing roller coasters and their likely stopping points for england's lionesses stops on a high an absolute high georgia stanway said if she were to get a tattoo it would be a roller coaster to summarize tournament and um who would have thought back to back to back to back extra time victories and dethroning the world champions and an open top bus parade coming up on tuesday the first ever england team men's or women's to win a major tournament on foreign soil stick that in your wikipedia page

4:31I don't think many people expected it just in the way that England performed throughout the tournament they were subpar I told Serena Wiegmann that and she said what does that mean and completely distracted everyone by talking about golf and didn't want to talk about her team's subpar performance at all that was just after the semi-final but they played the best that they have ever done all tournament against Spain. So, left the best till last. Beat the world champion. So, it was easy, I guess, along the way to see other teams doing things that maybe England weren't doing but the line has always had something that other teams didn't have and with it came the title.

5:13Matt, what was it, do you think? I mean, it's easy to say now, isn't it? But it's that kind of bloody-mindedness, I think, just refusal to accept defeat and I think that comes with having so many players in the squad who'd been there before or so many players who'd won things against the odds. You only need to look at the Arsenal contingent who won a Champions League weeks before that nobody thought they would win that particular final. I'm sure that was a massive help for them. But as we said on Thursday, the strength and depth that probably nobody else could match in this tournament was key here as well.

5:45You saw the team sheet and thought, hmm, Lauren James starting, not so sure about that. She doesn't look particularly fit. Lo and behold, she doesn't make it to half-time. But who comes on? Arguably England's player of the tournament who has ever turned the game by setting up the equalising goal. And yeah, I don't think anybody else has been able to match that in terms of quality replacements. Obviously, Ajumang wins young player of the tournament, having made several superstar cameos. And they have a manager who knows how to get it done. This extraordinary record in finals, particularly of this competition.

6:16And I saw Daniel posted yesterday, and very similar to my thoughts at the time when the team sheet comes out and you think, not sure about that, not sure about that. it's not really our business to try and second guess Serena Vigman and whether she's right or not is it because inevitably she is and every call again pretty much spot on from her here. So yeah, a combination of players who know how to get it done whether they're on one leg or two and a manager who's very clearly the best in the business. Now, hindsight's very much our business. Of course, Matt. We'll be piling that on. Natalie, are you looking forward to potential Lionesses versus Brazil's Silla Sour next summer?

6:55No, next summer is it? Two summers, two summers. No, not really, especially considering the quality and the resilience and everything that they showed in these heroes, because I think it's a good combination of great individual stories. And I'm sure we're going to talk about some of them. And this collectiveness that they created, not only for this tournament, but throughout this whole process with the women's team since the last heroes, since before that because the project just goes so far back. So I think it's just the perfect balance. You know, when you hear Jess Carter talking about after the match, saying that she was afraid of starting the final when she woke up, but then she looked around at the team and she felt confident and she was one of the standout performers in that final.

7:45You just see that symbiosis, that combination of, you know, like individual talent and individual confidence and also this team spirit. They all have each other's back and they have Serena Wigman leading them. So it was incredible. Well, it was another epic performance to end an epic tournament for England. Let's get into what actually happened Sunday in Basel next. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The woman who won the Euros for England the last time round to win it for England this time round. Chloe Kelly is staying home. Chloe Kelly, of course.

8:38It was Caldente who'd headed Spain in front 25 minutes into a first half dominated by the world champions. 10 minutes though into a much better second half for England. Her Arsenal teamer Elisa Russo equalising with another cracking header set up by Chloe Kelly, who'd come on for Lauren James, and who, 75 minutes later, then stepped up to finish the job with that decisive penalty. Natalie, you were saying about getting into the individual stories, fewer as dramatic as Chloe Kelly's, who starts the year effectively dropped by her club man, Citi, and by Serena Vigman as well, and now is European champion with England and Champions League winner with Arsenal.

9:21Yeah, dramatic exit from Manchester City. She fell out of love with the game for a while and she was very open about it. But then she moves to Arsenal, she wins the Champions League and she wins the Euros. For me, Chloe Kelly crying after being ice cold and so reliable in the big moments was one of the coolest images of that team celebrating. You know, she had a really tough year and how tough it was for her mentally. And then she's in Switzerland not starting games, but consistently delivering when she's asked. So, and that penalty, it had to be her. So it's just a really, really good story. Charlotte, would she be England's woman of the tournament?

10:11Great question. I think Serena Wiegmann is so reticent to speak about individuals. She hates it. And yet, in this tournament, we've seen her let go a bit and she was eulogising about Lucy Bronze after the Sweden quarterfinal, just saying she's one of a kind and she's never, ever seen anything like it before. But Chloe Kelly, you could see that when they embraced and Serena Wiegmann gave Chloe Kelly a peck on the cheek and they were in tears, you knew how much that meant, not only for the player but for the manager as well. So impact sub, no doubt, but I think England showed that the whole was better than the sum of their parts this tournament.

11:00And Wiegmann herself, as Matt was saying, a lot of second-guessing going on both in terms of her choices for the tournament and for this final, but total vindication. Yeah, you can't falter in terms of selection. I think the big surprise was selecting Carter over Morgan in that back line. I spoke to Jess Carter in the mix zone last night and she said when Serena told me in training, I thought, are you sure? And she was full of praise for Eswe Morgan just as how outstanding she has been on the pitch, but also off the pitch as a squad member and willing to play her part. And she just said, Serena Wiegmann instills that belief in you.

11:44And I just thought, sod it, I'm just going to play the game of my life in the final. And she admitted that she'd really struggled because of the racial abuse that she had received. She wasn't that kind of happy-go-lucky, calm, relaxed Jess around camp that she normally is. And when she had that conversation with Wiegmann and Wiegmann put her trust in her, it kind of just she was just unshackled and fair play to Jess Carter because she had a brilliant game stepping up yesterday we're talking about the things that maybe this England team had that other nations weren't able to provide one was an extra day's rest compared to Spain and Michael Cox with the remarkable statistic in last Thursday's pod that every men's or women's Euro World Cup final since 2012 has been won by the side who'd had an extra day's rest after the semi-finals that trend continues the other quality if you will perhaps is is a fair dose of luck we saw it against Italy for England we we certainly saw it here Paroloolo's uh missed from a couple of yards out and countless other chances how worried were you about England during uh Sunday night in I think once they got past extra time, I thought then, you know, 50-50 penalties, I backed England.

13:06But during extra time, England looked exhausted. They were really, really struggling. You know, you saw the caffeine gels being consumed and energy drinks. But I favoured Spain going into the final. When they went 1-0 up, you think, wow, this is a hefty mountain to climb. But England were extremely organised defensively. I feared in the first half because they just didn't take their chances, and Spain did. But as the game grew on, you just thought, really? Again? When Meade slipped for her penalty, I thought, right, that's it. England's luck is out. Fair play. It's been a brilliant game. Top-level football, but, you know, they've ridden their luck and their journey has ended.

13:54But, yeah, it's just something about this England mentality. Leah Williamson was saying that they know that they can look at each other in the eye and say that we I will go deep for you and I will suffer and I know that we've suffered before and we can suffer again. Natalie you mentioned individual stories I bet there's another you'd like to highlight. Yeah well we were talking Charlotte mentioned Lucy Bromson because everybody's been talking about her but finding out after the the final that she played the whole tournament with the fracture. I mean, this is just, it takes everything to a different level.

14:30It puts everything into perspective. Every little niggle that you felt in your life, you just rethink everything. And it's just, it's incredible what happened to her. How is it possible? I recently fractured my tibia as it happens. And I certainly wasn't competing in any international tournaments, I can tell you that much. Medically, how can you do that? I think, you know, we don't know the full extent of the fracture and I'm taking nothing away from Lucy Bronze. She has been an absolute warrior. And yet you can get hairline fractures. You know, people have run marathon on fractures. But I do not doubt that if, you know, Jimbo, having fractured your tibia, how painful that is, that if anyone is going to bear that pain, it will be Lucy Bronze.

15:22She said she hasn't been in full training with England. She had to, you know, spread out her medication and dosage and things like that. She found out that she did it just after the Portugal game, which was the end of May. So for just under two months, she's been playing with this. And Esme Morgan described her as a freak in the best kind. Jess Carter said she's just stubborn. Imagine saying, no, I'm not leaving this pitch regardless. But there will be no one like Lucy Bronze. She is irreplaceable. I'm looking at the Spanish front pages of the sporting press right now on Monday. Marker with football sometimes is unfair.

16:09Maximum penalty from Mundo Deportivo and sport. Cruel final. I mean, we've been there. Every nation has to some extent. Why does Spain come up short? Matt, Natalie, Charlotte, Daniel, anyone? I think cruel is pretty generous from the Spanish press, to be honest. I'd say more that they were fairly disappointing. I mean, wasteful in front of goal would be something that I'd point to rather than cruelty. 22 shots, only five of them on target. One goal from an extra of 2.35. We praised Bon Mati on Thursday. I thought she was fairly anonymous here. Piteas too. so yeah I'm not sure it's cruelty more that they just didn't play as well as they could have done and this is England's best performance of the knockout rounds by some distance I think it's fair to say but yeah having gone a goal in front you would have expected a team like Spain who dominate possession so much and who had created so many chances to be able to put it away so I think there's reason for them to feel rueful of their own game management rather than any kind of luck that England had or bad luck I thought Leah Williamson summed it up nicely actually she said we've ridden our luck, but I don't think we're lucky.

17:17And that kind of plays into that old cliche, doesn't it? The harder you work, the luckier you get. And that was the case with England. But yeah, for Spain, just didn't play as well as they could have. That's my kind of very basic analysis of it. Yeah, you know, I love the part of the show where we read the headlines from the always pondered Spanish press. Always very dramatic. And it's not even a new story because against Germany, They also wasted a lot of chances. So you can say that there is a bit of cruelty with Bon Mati wasting her chance in the penalty shootout because she was player of the tournament.

17:59And it was a bit sad to see such a high-level player in such a crucial moment not delivering. So I'll give them that. But in the end, football tournament is about accuracy and taking your chances. And in Spanish, they fell short there. I do think that fairly subtly, Wigman managed to change the game, not in England's favour, but certainly made Spain slightly dominant, gave them something else to think about. I kind of noticed in the second half, Lucy Bronze was almost playing two positions. I think out of positions, she was pretty much playing as a right back because she was having to fill in for Claudio Pina, it was at that point, cutting in off the wing.

18:41But as soon as England got the ball, she shuttled up into central midfield and went next to Kira Walsh and made it a two in the middle of the pitch there. And I think what that did is it made England slightly less scared about Spain on the counter. And therefore, Chloe Kelly could get higher up the pitch. Beth Mead, when she came on, could get higher up the pitch. I think in the first half, like my abiding memory of Lauren James was, other than the chance that went by her, was her basically in the left-back position, shuttling the ball back to Alex Greenwood to hoof down the pitch and England just getting clogged in.

19:12So we didn't really see that Chloe Kelly having to do that in the second half. She was able to get really high. And obviously that's where the goal comes from because she makes that overlapping run and is then able to cross the ball into the box. So I thought, you know, Lucy Bronze, who I'm sure we'll talk about in a bit in terms of her resilience, but not just that. She was playing two different positions, I think, in the second half. A lot of people are talking about legacy after this victory. reaching the final of the World Cup, back-to-back European championships, kind of record that any nation, any team, men and women would dream of.

19:45Obviously, the Spanish actually have that kind of thing, but yes. Yeah, and I remember when I first moved to England nine years ago, and it was obviously before the 2018 World Cup, and I noticed that there was so much cynicism when the British spoke about, their football teams. And of course, the men have been doing well since then, starting with Russia. But I think we should really acknowledge how important of a role women's football is playing in developing a different mindset, especially for the new generation of English fans. And that is big, and that is big, big, huge credit. Because when we hear the players giving interviews after the match and saying like, this is England, I'm so proud of being English.

20:37And that says something, especially to the new generation. So I really think we should acknowledge how big this is for English football and for women's football, but the impact that it's been having in this country. Charlotte, have you got any final thoughts on not just England's performance, but the tournament as a whole? How successful was Euro 2025? There was just a buzz in the stadiums. There was concern ahead of the tournament that they hadn't chosen big enough venues. But the fact that 29 out of 31 were sold out. I went to the Germany-Spain game with Michael Cox and just being among the fans, that vibe and that bite, but just a warmth and a friendliness that really captured that moment.

21:31I just, I don't think, we'll look back and I'll think, wow, we didn't realise how lucky we were. And I think this is a real turning point in women's football because there is a tension between the authenticity and relatability of the athletes, which connects with the audience. And then the money's going to come in and the commercial deals. And I think this, we'll look back at this moment and it will be a point in time where we go, it has catapulted. and we've always wanted that for women's football and it's great. But the proximity that you get with these athletes, I think is understandably going to diminish and people will want a piece of them and they will be demanded.

22:15It's just going to, you think Euro 2022 was, you know, a moment that has catapulted women's football. This is just going to accelerate it even further for better. and there will be some drawbacks as well. I think we spoke a few weeks ago on the show about how the format of the women's major tournaments actually slightly did England a disservice in that Euro 2022 is this massive moment that caused an explosion of, for example, WSL attendances. And then the next World Cup being in Australia, the time difference, how that all played out, it felt more difficult to recapture that or continue that mood over an extended period of time.

22:57I think that the victory in this tournament kind of supercharges that. It's the perfect moment. We shouldn't take away the individual credit for the players and for the manager and for doing what they've done, but the legacy is there. There will be more. I looked on Twitter last night and Birmingham City are saying, if you want to watch the next Lionesses play, come and see our games. And fans are engaging with that. And that will happen across the country. It will happen at WSL level. It will happen, I think, even at WSL Championship level now. And I don't think that goes away now. Winning a tournament once feels like a moment, but winning it twice feels like a legacy.

23:34And it does create something that there will be challenges. And Charlotte's absolutely right. And some of those challenges are how it kind of learns to deal with itself. And that is a huge issue for the FA and for clubs individually. And because there's a huge gap at the moment in terms of how prepared clubs are for that, but it can only be a positive. This is a once in a generation chance. And you heard in the week leading up to the game, heard some of the former players from 87 and 2003 and 2009 and all those years where they were having to almost fight their own system to make it work. These players don't have to do that anymore.

24:13They have earned the chance for the system to kind of go hand in hand with them and create what we want. And honestly, I'm looking forward to 2027 because, as Daniel mentioned, we won't have the time difference. Brazil is hosting it and I can guarantee we can throw a good party. So that, yes, the expectations are high already. OK. Another Spain-England final, no doubt. Charlotte, what would, as you sign off from Switzerland, what would be your favourite memory of the past few weeks? Oh, God, Jimbo. I'm speechless. I will sign off with a very crude comment. which is, b****** get s*** done. And that was the phrase written on a toiletry bag that Serena Wiegmann used as a motivational technique before the semi-final against Italy, and she used it again before the final against Spain.

25:09And, yeah, England got s*** done. Certainly did, Charlotte. Magnificent. Charlotte, listen, have a great journey back, And many, many thanks for all the memories, etc., that you brought us from the tournament. And we look forward to catching up with you soon when the new season gets underway. As for the rest of us, up next, it's a bit of On This Day.

25:41This summer, JBL is on a mission to help you tune into what you love. audiobooks podcasts and everything in between with jbl's live headphones these headphones are perfect because of their high-res sound making your fave stories and voices come alive with so much detail exactly the way they were made to be heard plus they have 80 hours of battery life so you can binge without pressing pause all summer long find your pair at jbl.com

26:13This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli Kay and the very best football writers around. The Dutch settles on Euro 2025. Copa America Feminils going on over in South America, Natalie, with Brazil in the semifinals. You're up against Uruguay. That's early hours of Wednesday morning, UK time. What's the other semi? Argentina-Colombia, right? Yeah. Broadly speaking, how's that tournament been going? How's it been received? Yeah, not good. Completely different reality from what we just spoke about with the Euros.

26:59Marta was one of the many players who complained about the organization of the tournament. Only two stadiums were used throughout the competition. And because of that, for the first few matches, the players, they couldn't even, they couldn't go to the pitch to warm up because they wanted to preserve, you know, the conditions of the grass. But against Bolivia, for example, the Brazilian team, they had to do warm ups in a very small place that, according to them, smelled like paint. And the players were questioning Alejandro Dominguez, who is the president of Comebol, and mentioning that the men's Copa America last year was held in much better structure.

27:36Ari Borges, one of our most experienced players, said that even non-league games were better organized than Copa America. And there are other differences like not using VAR until the semis, which was a complaint from Uruguay, especially when they didn't get a penalty against Argentina. The attendances have been very low. The biggest attendance was the first game from Ecuador, because it's been held in Ecuador. So with 6 ,000 people in a 12 ,000 stadium. And, you know, there are still the smallest, the biggest attendance. Yeah, yeah. I'm wondering what the smallest was. Oh, yes. No, Brazil played with like a few dozen people in the stadium.

28:21So there are still teams fighting for more support from their federations. The Uruguayans, for example, they had a strike before the tournament. They didn't show up to a training session. So in two years' time, we were talking about the World Cup and how excited we all are. And it's great to see how much the women's game has progressed, but it happened in different paces in different parts of the world. I think it's important for us to keep that in mind. And if there's one thing England and Spain and other successful teams teach, is the importance of a long-term project, which is still what a lot of South American teams are fighting for.

28:56And it's not a reality for a lot of them. All righty. Well, it's the 28th of July. And on this day, 25 years ago, Natalie, you'll be excited about this, Robbie Keane made the shock transfer from Coventry City to Inter. Talked about David Platt moving to Italy last Monday. Not last Monday, but we talked about it last Monday. Robbie Keane's move less successful he was kind of viewed there as the sixth choice striker because they had a lot of strikers they had Ronaldo, you know the original Ronaldo, they had Christian Vieri Zamorano, Hakan Sukur Karanika Lomba various other players but anyway Robbie actually did alright in his early games, I think he got two goals in his first four starts but then Marcello Lippi the manager was sacked and Marco Tardelli came in and decided that he didn't need Robbie Keane.

29:49And he was back in England not long afterwards. I think by December he was turning out for Leeds where things went a lot better. Ironically, Tardelli would be reunited with Keane eight years later when he became Giovanni Trapattoni's assistant with the Republic of Ireland. Keane himself has had a successful bout as manager, most recently winning titles with Fenerbahis in Hungary. But perhaps the most significant thing I wanted to mention was that he is Morrissey's cousin. Morrissey out of the Smiths. Matt, you're no doubt familiar with this story. Yeah, I was not familiar with it. I was also not familiar with his managerial career.

30:31Robbie Keane's one of those players who, you know, you can occasionally look at his Wikipedia page and go, oh, did he play for them? But his managerial career is even more abstract than his playing career. that, you know, following, replacing Teddy Sheringham as manager of Atletico Colcata, to then obviously go to Maccabi Tel Aviv, and then Ferencvaros, where he's managing Naby Keita, amongst others. Is he? Yeah. It's a unique path. Well, Robbie himself was unaware of the fact that he was Morrissey's cousin until reasonably recently. He says that he was in a shop in Los Angeles in 2013 when one of Doogie Freeman's friends was in the shop and came up and said, Hi, my name is Leon.

31:15I'm best friends with Doogie Freeman. I look after Morrissey. He really wants to meet you. So Robbie said, Oh, really? He said, Yeah, yeah, he's a cousin of yours. I said, Is he? I hadn't a clue. I rang my mother, says Robbie, and asked, Am I cousins with Morrissey? She says, Yeah, my mother's mother and his mother are sisters. I said, You only took 20-odd years to tell us that Morrissey is our cousin. She goes, Ah, I forgot. So there you go. Did he then say that the Smiths were his favourite band when he was a kid? In the same way that he would claim that every team he played for was his boyhood club.

31:47Very nice, Matt. If you're a Man City fan, you might feel that 28th of July has great significance in reference to 2011. When the blue half of Manchester signed Sergio Aguero. He had one of the best debuts in Premier League history. coming off the bench to score twice and create a third in a 4-0 win over Swansea. That season ended in most memorable fashion at the Etihad. Sergio Aguero, can't mention him without talking about how underrated he is, Daniel. Never voted Player of the Year, only voted into two PFA teams of the year in his 10 years of City. Yeah, it's the victimhood of consistency, basically, isn't it?

32:29Like if you're just eight and a half to nine out of ten pretty much every week, nobody really notices his purple patches were phenomenal. Yeah, I just remember that debut against Swansea. The goal he scored was absolutely zero back lift with these tiny little legs. And he absolutely belts it into the corner and you're like, yeah, we've got a problem here, everybody else. We've really got a problem here. Where do I get? Decent effort. Oh, it's more than that. It's magnificent. What a way to round off your City and Premier League debut. A classic goal. And the assist was incredible as well in that game.

33:08He loves the ball over Michel Vaughan, the Swansea keeper. Looks as though it's just flying out of place. Somehow catches up with it. First time, volleys it across the face of the penalty area for David Silva to tap in. Incredible. Kind of the assumption was that when Guardiola got there that maybe he wouldn't fancy Aguero. He wouldn't be an Aguero-style player. and then cut to when Aguero leaves and Guardiola's beside himself, sobbing on the pitch, saying there's absolutely no way we can replace this guy. Yeah, Daniel's right. He was just too consistent for people to take notice of his brilliance, really.

33:42But extraordinary player. There'll never be another like him. Unless this 16-year-old kid who's currently turning out for Independiente in Argentina goes by the name of Benjamin Aguero, who is not only the son of Sergio, but he's also the godson of Lionel Messi, and genetically, perhaps more relevantly, he's the grandson of Diego Maradona. Yikes. Talk about connections. Yeah. I quite like that. I quite like seeing Norway create Erling Haaland in a lab and going, come on then, Buenos Aires, what have we got? Well, if you're a hothousing kind of next generation talent, I was reading this weekend about San Ramesi.

34:26I don't know if you're familiar with San Remo, or the town in kind of by the border with France in northwestern Italy, where they hold the famous music festival. Such great tunes there. But San Ramezi are a team in Serie D, which is effectively kind of the fifth tier. They are putting together a team which features Tobias Del Piero, Juan Djokovic, and there is only, yeah, and also Francesco Gattuso, who's a goalkeeper. What an incredible, you know, nepotism FC. But apparently Tobias Del Piero, who is a number 10 himself, is the one who's the absolute standout. So Sandra Macy, keep an eye on them.

35:09All right, next up, transfers and the packet R business.

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36:51This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. Friday, news broke that West Ham's Lucas Pakitar is set to be cleared by the FA of those spot-fixing charges. You recall that he had been charged on four counts of deliberately picking up yellow cards, allegedly for the benefits of friends and family piling on on betting markets. He could have faced a life ban. As it was, the investigation did cost him almost certainly an£85 million move to Manchester City, which fell apart when City learnt of the investigation. Paquetar's lawyers themselves described the FA's evidence as only circumstantial.

37:36Basically, suspicious betting had been traced to an island called Paquetar in Brazil. Natalie, where Paquetar, I believe, is from, 60 bets were placed there on him getting a yellow card in the games in question. What happens now? Is there massive legal action on the way? Yeah, so I spoke to his team. and until Sunday evening, they haven't been officially notified of the result. So, you know, we have the reports, but they're still being cautious about it. And, you know, you can't blame them because, as you said, James, it's been such a long wait and a roller coaster. At moments, it really looked like he could be banned from football.

38:17What is a fact is that if the outcome is for Paqueta to be cleared of the charges, they will look for ways to be compensated for the heat that his career has suffered in the past two years, not only the negotiations with Manchester City at the time, who were very, very advanced, practically a done deal, but other things as well, like he hasn't done anything commercially, you know, with brands and sponsors. And there's the mental and emotional damage to him and his family, which was, you know, discussed, especially when he got booked last season against Spurs and we saw him cry on the pitch. And also, it will be interesting to see where his career can go from here.

38:57You know, can he pick up from where he was when he was charged? Because last season wasn't his best, but, you know, West Ham was struggling throughout the season. So it's not only on him. The previous season, when the allegations submerged, he really played well. So he's incredibly talented, even in the national team. He hasn't been called up recently. So it will be interesting to see how his career will pan out after all of this. All right. Well, his lawyers will be getting busy. No doubt his agent will be too. but you reckon he'll move away from West Ham, Natalie? That's a big question, Mark, honestly.

39:31Well, before all of this, it was a done deal for everyone around him that he would move from West Ham. But, you know, the club has been very supportive of him throughout this process. One of the big statements in the process came from David Moyes, his former manager. So that had a big influence. and yeah, no, I think we'll just have to wait to see how things will pan out for him in terms of his career and, you know, the following legal actions. Okay, and for the Celisal? Yeah, for the Celisal, I think it's going to be interesting because there's no player like Paquetá with the characteristics he presents to the team.

40:16He's very versatile, so he can play as an 8, he can play as a 10. He's been used in different positions. I think it's down to Ancelotti now, but there is definitely a place for him in that midfield, especially considering that one of the main criticisms for the national team is that they were lacking this number 10 creative player. He can be that. He played enough in different positions, but he can add some creativity to the team and he can do well in disrupting opponents and going out in one-v-one situations. So I'm expecting him, if he goes back to playing at the level he was before, I'm expecting him to get a call up in the next few matches for the national team.

41:06If his dream was a move to Nottingham Forest, the bad news for Paquitar is that they might have that position already occupied because, Matt, this is perhaps the biggest news of the week. Forrester hanging on to Morgan Gibbs-White. Yes, extremely surprising. I watched him play the second half of a pre-season friendly out in Portugal on Saturday night against Fulham. And he looks reasonably committed as ever. He's clearly doing the right thing. His attitude has been great ever since all this transfer talk broke. Good on him for being ultra professional. And then lo and behold, shortly after full time, it was announced that he signed a new contract.

41:49and apparently will be staying at Forrest until 2028. I think probably I wasn't the only person who thought, OK, you signed a new contract in the way that Mateus Cunha signed a new contract at Wolves last year and he'll be off for more than£60 million at the end of this season. But apparently there is no release clause. And yeah, he's here for the next three years entirely of his own accord. And yeah, happy to be part of the project as Forrest stick it to the big six and always win. as the propaganda machine told us over the last couple of days. Very, very nice. Daniel, you mentioned, we were talking about this before when it seemed like his move to Spurs would be on about where he ranks in the pantheon of all-time Forrest greats that you've witnessed.

42:35Matt, what would be your take on that and how happy are you that he's sticking around? I'm very happy that he's sticking around. I mean, Forrest, you might have heard this, James, but they did win the European Cup a couple of times. So when we're talking about all-time greats, his body of work probably needs to be a little bit larger, but he's a key player. That you witnessed live, I think, was the criteria. OK, sure, yeah. I mean, the thing about Morgan Gibbs-White is, I mean, there's an argument to be made, and in fact, Daniel Taylor does this in The Athletic today, that maybe his goal output should be slightly higher.

43:01But what he gives to the team, other than goals and assists, is really intangible. You know, his work rate is absolutely incredible and quite unlike that of what you would expect for a player in his position who's supposed to be the playmaker and creator. He's captain more often than he's not. He's a key figure at the club. and to have lost him and Anthony Alanga in the same summer would have been devastating for Forrest and to be able to keep him is massively important and puts a whole new slant on things. You know, Forrest supporters have been a bit unsettled by the fact there's not been much incoming transfer activity yet.

43:34Well, I mean, this is not like a new signing, but this is something which looks incredibly unlikely a couple of weeks ago that he would be there and it makes a huge difference to Forrest's plans going forward. He's a fantastic player. his attitude as I say has been absolutely exemplary throughout all this and in stark contrast to lots of other players that we've seen in similar positions and players that we see now so yeah full credit to him hopefully he's here until 2028 it's interesting to see what impact if anything it will have on his England prospects but certainly brilliant news for Forrest.

44:09I wouldn't blame Morgan for being slightly annoyed about this situation I don't think it's unfair to say that he probably wanted that Champions League move the thing that plays really well for Forrest is the World Cup next summer because he desperately wants to be part of that so even if he does feel a bit like kind of what wow this was a mad two weeks what's really happening here he now has that as a focus and to play you know and to play the best season of his life and therefore get that move next summer if that's how it transpires the heart the idea of like no release course is the important thing for Forrest the no agreement to leave next summer I don't I mean I don't really know what that's worth because if he has a brilliant season and Manchester City come back for him and as I understand it Manchester City was the one the move he wanted this summer and it didn't come about if that was available next summer I would have no problem with him leaving for significantly more than the 60 million they were going to get from Tottenham okay Manchester City who have in the meantime activated their buyback clause for Burnley goalkeeper James Trafford, another player being strongly linked with Newcastle over the summer.

45:13Newcastle have been having a rough old time of it in terms of bringing people in ahead of their return to the Champions League. Paul Mitchell, the man in charge of that area for the Magpies, leaving in June. Eddie Howe and his son, part of the team, trying to get the transfers done in his absence. It's been a pretty disastrous run. They missed out on Liam DeLapp, Eketike, they're hoping to get Johan Wisser over the line, but Alexander Izak and his omission from the Far Eastern tour causing significant doubt on whether he's ever going to line up, suit up for the Magpies again. The big question with him now seems to be, where on earth can he go on the kind of money that he wants?

46:02Anybody have any thoughts? He'll be going to Liverpool, won't he? I mean, whether that's on the money he wants, I'm not sure. If he wants an incredible amount of money, he'll go to Saudi Arabia. But that doesn't seem to be in his remit. But it feels like there must be something in place with Liverpool anyway, because you don't hear him link with anybody else. Obviously, Arsenal have just bought a striker of their own. Chelsea briefed last week that they weren't going to be in for Isak. Manchester City have Erling Haaland. Real Madrid have Kylian Mbappe. Where else does he go if it's not Liverpool?

46:36So I think he must be pretty sure that all the mechanics are in place for this to happen quite quickly. Otherwise, he wouldn't be kind of ruling himself out of Newcastle's pre-season, etc. Liverpool, who may well be clearing a spot for Isaac with the sale of Luis Diaz to Bayern. Bayern Munich, FC Bayern. Other big moves on the way. Victor Goyker is officially confirmed as moving to Arsenal for initial 55 million, which does sound reasonable in the current context. A potential Liverpool forward line of, what, Isaac with Eketike and Mo Salah and, hey, Florian Wurtz playing in behind. I mean, it's the stuff of Madman's dreams, surely.

47:23Yeah, but I don't know how worried Liverpool fans would be if the Isaac deal doesn't happen because you don't have Luis Diaz, which is a player that everyone really liked. It is a good piece of business. 75 million euros for Diaz, I think it's good business from a financial perspective. But I still think they need a winger because if they don't get Isaac, that's worrying. It looks like they're going to get him, but we never know with transfer window. There are rumours of Darwin Nunes leaving too as well. So they do need the numbers. If they don't get Isaac, it's a huge tease of the Cody Gakpo because I feel like his performance level last season was flashes, but the flashes we saw were elite level.

48:17And if he, I think he deserves to either play off the left or play as a central striker ahead of Nunes, if Ekotike wants to play off the left, There's obviously a lot of fluidity there with Salah being the kind of one focal point on the right. But yeah, it's a huge season for Gakpo because he's another one who will have an eye on the World Cup. We want him to start for the Netherlands in the World Cup next summer. And slightly become a forgotten man in all the talk of Eketike and Izak and Salah being a guaranteed starter. He'll want to start 40 games next season, Gakpo. Second week of the season, Newcastle-Liverpool at St James' Park.

48:53Monday night football. It'll be funny if Izak's gone by then. Yeah, no, and I can understand completely the frustration from Newcastle fans. We still have a month of transfer window, but I remember at the last game of the season, I interviewed Bruno Guimarães on the pitch right after they clinched their spot for Champions League this season. And the first thing he said, OK, we're happy, but we need to sign players. We need more players. And all fans were desperate for it, for some more depth in squad, especially playing Champions League. And you mentioned Jokidis. As much as I really do believe that having a striker will be such an important improvement for Arsenal, because we've been talking about it since forever.

49:41and we see this. It's important for us not to look at Jokeres and see him like the savior, the guy who's going to sort everything out because last season showed other problems that need addressing. In terms of result, there was clear progress with them reaching the Champions League semifinals. That was really something for Arsenal. But in terms of their game, we didn't see the progress we saw on the team compared with previous seasons under Arteta. They struggled to be creative enough They were predictable at times. So, of course, they suffered with crucial injuries, which was something big. It was a big factor in terms of creativity.

50:20But even so, we have to be careful when looking at Jokiris and expecting him to sort out every problem up front at Arsenal. Well, he is one of a raft of signings at the Emirates, so a raft which might see another body sitting on top of it if Eberici Eze is really going to be making a move across the Thames from Selhurst Park, as those rumours continue. Anyway, as you mentioned, Natalie, a month or so of transfer talk still to enjoy. Just to conclude for now, Matt, we'll see you on last Thursday's show who was saying how enthused they were about Evan Ferguson's prospects down in the Eternal City, a.k.a.

51:00Rome. He's had a pretty good start, hasn't he? how much stock we want to put in friendlies I'm not sure but yeah really fun to see how he began his time in Italy. Five goals in two games one of them admittedly against a side from fifth tier Uni Pometsia and then another on Saturday, last Saturday against Kaiserslautern out of the Bundesliga 2 I was going to say also wearing one of what probably must be the best kit of the new season I think we've seen Roma's new third kit, which is, accidentally or otherwise, Evan Ferguson inspired. It's a white with orange and green touches. And it is, I mean, it looks like you could win Wimbledon playing it in 1992.

51:46But other than that, it is beautiful. Oh, yeah, I like it. Another Brighton low-knee estupinian who's gone to Milan, part of their 4-2 win over big money Liverpool. Anyway, as you say, Matt, no stock to be set in friendlies. So with that, let's just finish off by asking you, with the EFL kicking off on Friday in the shape of Luton against AFC Wimbledon. Speaking of Wimbledon, a League One clash this. What you're most looking forward to in the various tussles ahead? Yeah, I mean, that's a good game to kick off. I feel like there's always a game to start the season that is built as there were two divisions between these teams.

52:31last season and this is very much that it was also the the national league playoff final 14 years ago when wimbledon first got into to the football league they beat luton on penalties um at the etihad so yeah that's something to look forward to in terms of league one also interesting to see cardiff in the third tier for the for the first time in 22 years gareth bale leading a consortium trying to buy cardiff at the moment in terms of the champ which is a week later i think it's going to be interesting to see Birmingham. I'm actually going to get a look at them on Saturday. They're playing Forest in a friendly but 111 points in League One last season.

53:06So interesting to see if they can kind of parlay that into a successful championship campaign. West Brom, also West Midlands-based. Perma linked with jobs. Ryan Mason actually getting one. Excited to see how he gets on. Frank Lampard obviously nearly got Coventry promoted last term. Had a pre-season. But I think the key thing about the championship is that I don't see it being the three teams who've gone down coming straight back up again which has kind of blighted it for the last few years I think six of the last 12 teams automatically promoted have been in their first year of parachute payments you'd expect it switch to be strong I'm not sure about Southampton you've got Will still in charge now our friend JJ Bull asking slash singing whether Will still will still have the will intrigued to find out if that is the case.

53:53But yeah, it looks a bit more up for grabs. League 1-2, a bit more competitive without Wrexham and Birmingham in there. Shout out to our old friend David Priest as well, who has recently been named the goalkeeping coach of Lincoln City. So great to see him working back in the EFL. And League 2, we've got Barnett and Oldham back in there. Oldham obviously founder members of the Premier League, always enjoy the fact that their manager's name is Mickey Mellon. And Barnett sort of flew their way through the National League last season. so they might feel they've got a chance of being a contender to get promoted again as well.

54:24But as always, lots of tremendous stories. And if you don't mind me saying, James, the best place to keep up with them is What the AFL, the podcast with myself, Adrian Clark, off this parish in Sam Parkin, which returns later this week, looking ahead to Leagues 1 and 2. What days would we look out for? What the AFL, Matt? We are going to be releasing on Monday, mainly throughout this season, with the notable exception of the first episode, which we are recording on Tuesday. day so when i get around to getting that out it will be in your ears later this week i went to a lincoln city last week for a to do a kind of piece on what happens on a pre-season day at a professional football club basically because you wanted to hang out with chris cohen let's be honest yes partly that um and i was doing as i always do when you get there which is try not to look super impressed because you're hanging around near footballers and football managers uh and then And all I hear is his bellowing voice across the room.

55:16And it's David Priest galloping over to me to shake my hand, which was a nice touch. He'd only been announced there the week before, but I think he's really happy. Yeah, he's been living. His home is Lincoln at the moment. So he's kind of back home after spells in Sweden and India and Sunderland. All over. That's the sound of the Priest. Indeed. All right, then. Now, we're going to be back, oh, first thing on Wednesday, with another instant on what a totally goal, which you'll be aware is our kind of retro series. We dust off the shows we made in the lockdown months. 2020, we were talking about classic seasons.

56:00In the one coming out on Wednesday, we're looking at Louis van Gaal's Ajax winning the Champions League. What, 30 years ago now? Crikes. Then on Thursday, to take us into our very mini summer pause, we will bring you the final of this season's Intertotally Cup. Whoop, whoop. Indeed. It is Tom Williams in his third final, yet to win one, taking on former winner, Producer Charlie. Yikes. No bigger mountain for any quizzer to climb, but we'll see how Tom gets on against Producer Charlie in a special edition of the Totally Football Show, which should be with you on Thursday. Yeah, excellent. For now, I think that wraps it up for today's show.

56:50So many, many thanks to Daniel, to Matt, to Natalie, and to Charlotte earlier on, and of course, producer Charlie, who's always there, always listening. And you, listener, have yourself a great time. Totally Goal Wednesday, Big Quiz Final Thursday, bit of a break after that, and have yourself a great time, whatever you're up to in the meanwhile.

57:36The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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