England beat France 6-4 to finish 3rd! Who will take home the World Cup?

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0:54Saturday at the World Cup, it's the third-fourth playoff, the game no one wanted. Oh, hey, actually, you like it now? After England and France combine and a 10-goal tear-up for the ages. We look back on the whammy in Miami. 4-0 to 4-3 to 6-4. Wave goodbye to Didier Deschamps. Have another moan at Thomas Tuchel. And ask, is not using Saka in soccer a Saka-bull offense? Then, Sunday, the actual final. Tidy Spain v Messi-Argentina. Manic, Titanic, Hispanic. We preview the big game. Saturday afternoon in Los Angeles. and our bald man summer continues with Tom Williams and Tim Spears. But we've brought hair in us today because we've got Daniel Storey joining us on the line from New York.

1:37Hello, Daniel. Yeah, men in her suits. I'm here. We've also got the suit, Martin Madur from Buenos Aires. Later on, when we look ahead to Sunday's big game, as you know, it's Spain against Argentina in the World Cup final. Daniel, you're in New York right now for the game. How is it there? Yeah, I went to Manhattan this morning. I'm staying in Long Island City this evening, moving to Williamsburg tomorrow morning. And yeah, I mean, there were loads and loads of Spanish and Argentinian fans, predictably more Argentinian fans and also predictably more just people from the USA wearing Lionel Messi shirts.

2:16That was slightly curtailed, that atmosphere, by a biblical storm that led to flash flood warnings and told people to kind of go home and go indoors because Manhattan's going to be underwater this afternoon. It was pretty spectacular. And I myself hot-footed it back to the hotel for the England game. So, yeah, it's clear that, I mean, I've seen enough people just in Manhattan to more than fill the stadium tomorrow. So there's going to be a huge watch party in Manhattan. There's going to be watch parties all around here. There's an Argentinian bar near my hotel in Long Island that are already gearing up with the kind of pre-drinks tonight.

2:52So, yeah, it's good stuff. Good. The stadium will be sold out, as you suggest. In fact, I hear that tickets are going for upwards of$12 ,000. You do get a half-time concert thrown in for that, along with the football, so there's that. A lot of fun than football, almost. Perhaps so. Well, especially given the two teams that will be contesting the game. There's also, though, as you mentioned, chance of biblical downfall, a flood advisory, and a code red alert for smoke and unhealthy air quality, and forecasters predicts a strong chance of Trump. It should be said that all of the excitement has kind of happened on Friday and Saturday.

3:33So we had the Canadian wildfire smoke on Friday all day and all night. How bad is it? And then it was terrible on Friday. It really was. It was more the smell, really, than an inability to catch your breath, although I wasn't running that far. But this morning, I went for a run in Central Park, and it was fine. It cleared overnight. Then we got the rain, which is sort of double cleared. It sounds like we're going to have full sun, 80 degree Fahrenheit tomorrow, kind of perfect playing conditions, which is sort of fortunate, given that they're playing in one of the outdoor stadiums, and I think they could do without a weather delay tomorrow.

4:07But I think it'll be fine on the day. All right. Well, we'll talk more about the final a little bit later on. Let's get a moment of today, though, Saturday, which saw this absolutely biblical tussle between France and England in the third, fourth playoff. Tom, why don't you kick us off? Incredible. Still getting our breath back, aren't we? I'm going to go for Kylian Mbappe's second goal of the game, which I think, Chex notes, made it 4-3 to France, who were 4-0 down at half-time. Just a beautifully constructed goal. Ousmane Dembele charges down the right, plays a pass in. Michael Lissé dummies the ball.

4:45Kylian Mbappé plays it into his path. Lissé plays it back to Mbappé with the outside of his left foot. Mbappé sticks it home, thereby becoming the outright top goal scorer in World Cup history. It's Lissé's seventh assist of the tournament, which has not been done before either. And there were still plenty of goals to come. But not enough for France. What was your moment of the day, Tim? yeah for the first time since arriving here I'm picking a goal as my best moment of the day normally picking like drinking smoothies or seeing Taylor Swift's house but yeah it's Jude Bellingham's the 10th goal of the match which is the one that we got most excited about I think we couldn't believe that there'd been 10 goals that England had scored 6 but the way that Bellingham scored it I've never seen him score a goal quite in that manner maybe he has in La Liga and I haven't seen it I don't know but sort of charging from just inside his own half and sort of leaving Le Croix for dead and then Upper McAnoe as he's finally going to be known on the last day of the World Cup for him.

5:47And yeah, just beats everyone. Didn't he? Yeah, he did, yeah. Upper Notmigo. Unbelievable. And yeah, just an incredible, an incredible and fitting finish. So like one of the best international matches that we've all ever seen. I mean, best is a difficult term. Most fun then. The most entertaining, without doubt. and one that, it should be said, cemented England's best ever finish at a workout on foreign soil. Daniel, what about for you? Moment of the day. Yeah, I went for the meaning of it. I went for Saka's penalty, which was his hat-trick goal. Only the third player since 2010 to score a hat-trick for England.

6:28So Harry Kane's got five in that period and Raheem Sterling won, a very famous one away at Spain under Gareth Southgate. and partly because it was a hatchet goal and also partly because Saka felt like the sort of narrative of the match, him being brilliant and playing the entire game, felt like a kind of defining, almost Thomas Tuchel was saying, you thought your headlines were done? Well, I'm going to give you a few more. Indeed so. Well, we'll get into some of those headlines and some of the salient facts of this extraordinary third-fourth playoff that took place on Saturday. France against England, 6-4 to the three Lions.

7:10Nobody was looking forward to the third-fourth play-off. How wrong we all were. It turns out to be the highest-scoring game of the tournament. The highest-scoring World Cup game since 1982. The first ever 6-4 in World Cup history. Hungary-El Salvador, the old, the famous 10-1 match in 1982 was the last time we'd seen such a goal fest at a World Cup. This was extraordinary. England, as you probably know, going 4-0 up. France racing back to make it 4-3 and looking for all the world like they were going to be 6-4 winners. Had England managed to lose this game, having been 4-0 up, what would that have meant, do you think?

7:47I don't know I mean you know on the one hand it is only the third fourth place playoff it doesn't really matter but I think had England capitulated to defeat having already gone ahead and then lost against Argentina in the semi-finals I suspect the headlines would not have made particularly comfortable reading for Thomas Huchel but luckily for him luckily for England they held on yeah indeed so you've picked out Belliam's goal already it was extraordinary he only came on towards the end of the game what was behind the incredible first half um well the way that france approached the match definitely suited england you know being an attacking open demotivated team was just perfect because that's exactly how we like to play on the counter-attack exploiting those gaps it felt like dachamp had basically just said just go out and have fun don't worry about tracking back just go and enjoy yourselves and show what you can do boys whereas england did have more of a tactical plan they were sitting slightly deeper they were looking to exploit on those quick transitions with uh rashford and saka again that suits them down to the ground and yeah it was i was annoyed at first james i have to say uh with what i was seeing because it was all like where was this a few days ago not just in terms of the work because obviously argentina weren't going to it was never going to be that kind of match on wednesday night was it but more in terms of like the energy like declan rice for the opening goal We didn't see any of those sort of bursts, you know, midweek against Argentina.

9:18And he could barely lift a corner with his foot. And maybe he's over his illness. But again, and seeing Saka doing what he was doing, I was just annoyed. You know, that did subside and we all got to enjoy it a lot. But it tends with frustration that in terms of energy and ambition, we didn't see any of this in the game that mattered. So the question that was resounding throughout this performance from commentators offspring to us sat around on the sofa was why can't England play like this in the games that matter Daniel what's the answer well one answer is that there are different players on the pitch today I mean the Saka question is fascinating really this is a guy who been England's big game player repeatedly over the last few years is has arguably been other than Kane at club level the most consistent English player and has had injury concerns in this tournament we know that but and if he'd have only played 45 minutes here he'd have been brilliant in the first half and then come out for half time I think everyone would have gone well look he needed to be managed etc but to play zero minutes in a World Cup semi-final and to then score a hat-trick and play 97 minutes in a World Cup third, fourth place play-off three or four days later.

10:36It felt like a different tournament for Saka. I know part of his success against France was exactly right, as Tim said, the fact that he was allowed to play like that. And he wouldn't necessarily have changed the game on Wednesday, but it would have been nice to see him given a chance. I think the same is true to a lesser extent to Marcus Rashford. I mean, we're all still, I think, thinking about that concert for Gordon's substitution. And Rashford was really good when he came on against Croatia. he had kind of flattered to see slightly but all of the starting wingers did that to an extent again he he came on in the 96th minute against Argentina so there were different players I know Argentina wouldn't have allowed us to counter-attack like that fine but we didn't try there were no runners in the other half against Argentina from 60 minutes onwards so yeah it was it was a really odd game for that the other thing I would say is that I thought even Tony did really well he's another player I think it's been or both him and Watkins have been underused in this tournament in terms of giving Kane taking Kane off after 60 or 70 when you can and backing Watkins and Tony to be as good as they are you know this is nobody is as good as Harry Kane at what he does for England but you that doesn't mean you flog Kane constantly and play him every minute and just never give everyone anyone else a chance just otherwise there's no point picking those players so yeah it was a Tim said he kind of got over that I kind of didn't get over that but maybe that says more about me than Tim.

12:04Well, there'll be plenty of opportunity to explore those feelings in the days to come. It is remarkable though, 10 goals, 6 for England and Harry Kane wasn't even on the pitch. Kylian Mbappé was though, he had the frustration of standing and watching his England counterparts receive their bronze medals, being so close he could almost touch those prized possessions. But he did walk away with that remarkable record, now the all-time top World Cup scorer. Yeah, I mean, the bronze medal would have completed his personal collection because he's already got a gold and silver medal, except obviously those things do not exist.

12:40But yeah, he is, as things stand, the all-time leading goal scorer in World Cup history and perhaps even more significantly for this tournament, has got a two-goal advantage now on Leo Messi in the race for the Golden Boot. Be his second successive Golden Boot, no player has ever won two Golden Boots in succession. He said himself, I would swap all these goals to be playing in the final. But nevertheless, he continues to enjoy a pretty remarkable tournament. Have they given up bronze medals for third place finishes before, Daniel? Not that I recall, but I think that's because I only noticed those games when England are playing in them and they lost their other one in 2018.

13:19I don't know. We were a bit worried when they were getting their bronze medals because they all then assembled on the celebration pedestal. and ordinarily you'd have a trophy to lift but obviously there is no trophy for third place and I was slightly worried they were going to start fireworks and all that jazz but they didn't, they posed slightly awkwardly and then they left the stage so embarrassment was avoided Yeah, not so for France as Didier de Jean bows out after 14 years in charge with a less heavy defeat than it looked like it might have been but still a 6-4 defeat, in general I'm sure people will be taking the broader view of a man who's won them so many things.

13:59But what was the reaction in France to their semi-final defeat? Were they blaming Thomas Tuchel as well? Yeah, everyone now blames Thomas Tuchel for everything, regardless of which country you're in. There was, I think, bafflement more than anything. I mean, obviously, enormous disappointment because France had looked so good, particularly in the group phase, in the 3-0 win against Sweden in the round of 32 but just mystification as to how France could have produced such a complete non-performance and you know there's no great desire to put the boot in on Didier Deschamps because he is France's greatest coach and is bowing out with that status intact but you know people have questioned some of his choices the fact he took Adriano Abrio off at half time the fact that all of his changes in the second half were like for like changes that made no material impact whatsoever on the way that France played and for all the success that he's achieved as France coach there has often been this undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the quality of France's football this tournament we thought finally that we would get this perfect marriage of you know Deschamps pragmatism and defensive solidity and a spectacular attack we got that in the group phase we got that against Sweden in the round of 32 but you go back to the game against Paraguay in the last 16 that was a real grind 2-0 against Morocco in the quarter finals convincing but not all that spectacular so it wasn't like France were firing on all cylinders and then suddenly just disappeared against Spain there was a slight sense of diminishing returns already so there's you know there have been questions raised as to some of his you know in-match choices but in the main there's no great desire I think for like a big kind of post-mortem because he's going off into the sunset and with all the laureates that you'd expect given what he's achieved in the job.

15:46And excitement perhaps at Zinedine Zidane arriving in his stead. Yeah, so Philippe Diallo, the French Football Federation president has confirmed that the announcement of Deschamps' successor will arrive before the end of the month. It will be Zidane. It's the worst kept secret in football. And I think Le Keep are reporting that he will take up the role on the 1st of September. so that kind of you know I think that perhaps softens the blow a little bit the fact that there's this exciting new era that looks like it's about to begin I guess we don't know what Zidane will be like as a head coach there might be a temptation to think that because he was this you know remarkable swashbuckling playmaker he will bring a similar kind of football with him but for anyone who remembers his Real Madrid team super successful but he is he is a pragmatist in the same mold as Deschamps so I'm not sure we should necessarily expect massive changes in terms of the kind of football France play.

16:40I think they've really left their mark in this tournament. In terms of World Cup history, in terms of the best teams who never won it, they're not quite at that level. I think you have to be a finalist to maybe reach the Hungary 54 or Netherlands 74 kind of level. But in terms of really good semi-final teams like the Dutch in 1998, they'll be remembered. I'll certainly remember them. They were the team I wanted to watch throughout the whole tournament. Yeah, you tune into every match. how many goals are they going to score today? Look at Mbappe and Alisi, what they're doing. It's the best attacking partnership of the whole tournament.

17:12And, you know, particularly, again, we talked before about, you know, they snank the place out of the Euros, four goals in six, to score 20 at this tournament. You know, for Deschamps to say he was going to inject life into this team, he absolutely did. It was bold, four attacking players. Yeah, I thought they were absolutely fabulous. I mean, they should sign off, okay, with a defeat, but with some, you know, some fantastic goals, some fantastic football. Indeed so. Daniel, before you leave us, a few thoughts more perhaps on England post-Wednesday with the benefit of a few days of perspective and indeed President Trump's opinion on the subject of England's defensive switch against Argentina.

17:54I know you're frustrated by seeing what Saka, what Rashford could do today, but the line that what happened on Wednesday there was as much to do with England's DNA as Tuchel's tactical choices. Although backed up by England's history, is it something that you buy? No, I don't. Not one little bit. I think if Tuchel had his time again, he maybe wouldn't say that in such strong terms. I think saying it's part of our DNA when 18 months before you said that the reason England didn't win Euro 2024 and therefore the reason why Thomas Tuchel is there is because they had a fear of winning against big opponents and to be very exact about that and to say that his job was to change that I think to then that then frames the 30 minutes against Argentina having taken the lead as the reason for Thomas Tuchel being England manager because he's saying there's a fear of winning there's a fear that you don't believe you can do it and therefore you have to go into your shell and you have to rely on these stereotypical tropes of English football from bygone eras of passion and chess beating and defending the line.

19:04To sort of suggest that you are merely being carried along by that tide effectively undermines the reason for your appointment at all, which, let us remember, was a one-tournament brief initially. He signed a new contract before the start of the tournament, fine, but it was initially a one-tournament brief. so if 18 months ago Thomas Tuchel had already identified that as the issue and had then had 18 months and then had come to the tournament and then the worst happens that England fall out whether it was worse than Southgate or better than Southgate or different Southgate whatever it happened to then immediately come out and say well I told you this was wrong 18 months ago and you sort of end up thinking well what have you really been doing for 18 months then because we know these players are good we know they're capable of attacking football we know they're capable of defensive football we know they're capable of brilliant football the issue as you told us that we didn't know that they believed they were capable of all three and you're now telling us exactly the same thing so where are we and and more importantly because I think he will keep his job why is it going to be every different next time because you had 18 months is the next two years is is this is this the you know this suddenly the miracle time when after 100 years of English tradition and inbuilt DNA, it's suddenly going to change in two years.

20:20I mean, to my mind, it looked like it had changed in three days today because England did carry on attacking, albeit against a half-baked team. But I don't buy it at all. I don't buy it at all. And I think he will keep his job because there's nobody else. And I think the clear frustration of players after the game, Harry Kane and Mark Gahey, the most obvious two of those, I think that will subside with a period of reflection and going back to their clubs and concentrating on the day job but one thing i would say finally is that the nation's league has been treated like a bit of an afterthought by most people in the public most england fans even that's not the case now england have got a group with croatia in and with spain in most importantly they've got the games home and away against spain in which thomas tuchel is going to have to show some improvement in that because if england merely fall into their shell again it raises serious questions about whether they can do it a year of 2028, which is a home tournament and is our best chance of winning one in an age.

21:17I absolutely agree with everything Daniel said and particularly on the sort of mentality side of it. I don't know if these quotes have been underplayed a bit, but Anthony Barry in a typically candid half-time interview sort of let slip a bit of an insight really when he talked about the semi-final half-time and he talked about England's inferiority complex. I thought the fact that he's even talking about that in a semi-final is bad enough but it shows that it's an issue within the camp and something that Thomas Tuchel has not sorted out at all which is a big part of his remit and Daniel also says there's perhaps no one out there to bring in if there's even a sniff of Pep Guardiola

22:02as David Ornstein revealed this week he verbally agreed to become England manager two years ago So he's unemployed. He clearly wants a break, which he can still manage to do before, you know, September or whenever, starting January like Tuchel did. If there's even a chance, I mean, you just go out and get pepped, don't you? Wow. Would he be the man? Just on the subject of Southgate, whether it was better or worse, Gareth Southgate never had the benefit of the hydration break to get into his players and try and sort something out in the middle of a half. Love him or hate him. I think I know which one you feel about it.

22:35that was a benefit that no manager has experienced before in a tournament. That was an advantage that no manager has had before and Tuka wasn't able to use it. We shall see. It's going to be a tough two years by the side of it for him, hopefully not for England. Tom, anything you want to add to that? Or can I ask about Morgan Rodgers? Yeah, no. That's enough in England, isn't it? Surely. Morgan Rodgers,£117 million from Aston Villa to Chelsea, announced on Saturday. Tim, you've written about this for The Athletic. Yeah, the second most expensive Premier League sign of all time after Alexander Izak, the most expensive Englishman of all time.

23:16And yeah, kind of came out of nowhere. And the fourth most expensive player anywhere in the world of all time. There you go, Sam Morgan. He scored 10 goals and got six assists last season. Is that right? Yeah, I mean, he had a very good season and it's a very good signing for Chelsea, but the finances behind it are astonishing. I assume Chelsea have just gone out and blown Arsenal out of the water here because James McNicholas at The Athletic is talking about Rodgers being one of Arsenal's top targets for the summer, regardless of Trossard coming in and out and his replacement being sorted. So yeah, how do Chelsea keep doing it?

23:51He's potentially snubbed the Premier League champions for a team that finished below Bournemouth and Sunderland and Villa, of course, and Brentford and Brighton last season, not playing in Europe next year. He's picked chaos over stability. OK, Alonso may sort it all out, but there's chances I won't. He's gone for the romantic option. Plucky up-and-coming Chelsea, trying to get back into the big time. Well, you mentioned Trossard, who Arsenal picked up when they missed out on another big signing, who went to Chelsea. And that move worked out a lot. better for the Gunners. Could this be another, could they have dodged a bullet as it were?

24:32I mean, certainly a hefty outlay. Yeah, I mean, at the price, I think they probably have dodged a bullet. It's an extraordinary amount of money. This is a guy who had a fabulous season, but it's 10 months since Aston Villa fans were jeering him for completing a pass. And Emery was talking about how to take him out of the team because he was getting so much grief from fans at Villa Park the start of the season it's i mean that itself is a is a great redemption arc for him i'm amazed i am kind of you know i don't blame chelsea fans for being very happy about this but it does slightly great that he has yeah given up the chance to play in the champions league at villa or elsewhere for this project it will be interesting to see where he plays obviously cole palmer is still there they're really good mates there's a chance that alonso does a kind of two number tens behind a striker thing.

25:21If I was Rodgers I'd be slightly worried of getting farmed out onto the left wing because if that happens I think you lose a sense of what he's good at. I think we saw that against Argentina with him starting on the right although he created the goal I think he really likes to be on the ball all the time and for Chelsea I don't know I think there's four positions in that team. Left back, right back if Gusto is going to go, centre-back and goalkeeper that I think are a higher priority than any attacking player. And as Tim says, this feels like a lot of the budget gone. Then it's Chelsea, so they'll probably find£200 million for a goalkeeper and three defenders anyway.

25:57Magnificent. I thought of an England thing. Oh, yeah. Briefly, the Marcus Rashford nutmeg for Anzire Emery midway through the first half. Obviously, he got kind of superseded by all the goals. But I think quite possibly the nutmeg of the entire tournament. Yeah. So, you know, worth a mention. There you go. Another little bubble for England to take away from Saturday's action. Very good. We'll move on in a second or two to talking about the final. Daniel, thank you so much for being with us today and throughout the tournament. We look forward to catching up with you in about, what, a month or so when the Premier League revs up.

26:33Yeah, I've got two weeks off and then I'll be back on Monday, August the 3rd for English football till May. All right then. look forward to hearing all about it have yourself a great holiday and we'll catch up with you soon keep on boys thank you daniel

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28:28Sunday's final England. Fans would love to have seen England in it, Tom, I believe. But you have to say it's quite a match-up. The two top-ranked teams in the world, the South American champions against the European champions, Argentina against Spain, eh? Brilliant final in prospect? Yeah, I think so. And I think arguably the two best teams that we've seen at this tournament, not the most flamboyant, not the most eye-catching. We weren't talking about Argentina and Spain the way we were talking about France in the group phase, for example. but they have both shown a remarkable ability to win tournament matches in different ways Spain in their traditional style Argentina I mean semi-miraculously every time just doing everything they can to seemingly throw a game away only to then snatch it back at the death as England found to their cost in the semi-finals so yeah I think it'll be brilliant I mean I say of the game that we had today.

29:29Yes. My suspicion. I think it will be interesting, but it also feels like... Tactically fascinating. Yeah, could well be nil-nil penalties, but I guess we'll find out soon. As well as the best European and South American, the top two ranked teams. Also, the two teams that have failed to beat Cape Verde in this tournament, neither of them, in 90 minutes anyway. And two of the three unbeaten teams excluding penalties in the tournament. Do you remember the third? I feel like... Oh, the Netherlands. No, excluding penalties. Sorry. Anyway, it's Iran. Ah, Iran. That's green drawers. Remember that? Yeah.

30:08So it's Spain, Argentina and Iran. We've been hearing that a lot on our 80s radio session. Well, on the subject of Wednesday's final, while it brought heartbreak for England fans, quite the opposite emotions were at play in Buenos Aires Wednesday as Argentina roared back in the final minutes of that semi-final. A short time ago, we caught up with Martin Mazur of El Grafico in Buenos Aires to hear about how things played out on Wednesday and what the feeling is there in Argentina ahead of Sunday's final. First of all, thanks so much for joining us. You just got back to Buenos Aires in time for Wednesday's semi-final.

30:49What was the reaction there on Wednesday in those final minutes against England? I have to say thank you for having me and it was one of the best moments that I remember, sporting moments in Argentina. The communion, the sense of we're all together in this, we are suffering together and then we were celebrating all together. But I think this game, this semifinal became legendary. It became a legend. It will be remembered forever, which, of course, didn't happen with Argentina, Croatia, Qatar, or in the semi-final in Brazil 2014. This was completely, completely different. Martin, did it mean more because it was against England?

31:38Is that the best opponent you could have a victory like that against? Yes, certainly. It meant so much more. Now we are on the verge of being too relaxed. OK, we've won against England, so OK, yeah, it's the final, but the work is done in a way. It will be remembered forever. This World Cup will be remembered forever. So I'm sure that the players are now saying we won against England. That's not important. The important thing is against Spain. But for the normal Argentina people, I would say it meant so much more. Even before 2002, 1998, there were important games, but not in such a crucial game.

32:30In 1998, yes, it was more important than 2002. But this was more comparable with 86. Sunday looks like the toughest test perhaps this team has ever faced against this Spain. They are so impressive. Only one goal conceded. So, yes, it's the toughest game. But in terms of, you know, that added value that was England or could have been France as well in the final, I think Spain is less tense. There is less tension in the air because it's Spain. If it was France with the final of 2022, I think it would have been also very tense in advance. Now, I'm not saying that we are relaxed, that Argentina are taking it easily.

33:24No, it's the toughest, yes. but the extra component here could have been France. And for Spain, it's a completely kind of game that it's going to be a very strategic game, I think. OK, is it going to be Leo Messi's last game for Argentina? I fail to see that moment coming. I remember in Qatar, oh, if we lose now, this might be the last game of Messi. and now three and a half years later. So you never know. It's superhuman. It's extraterrestrial. So he can do whatever he likes, actually. Argentina plays in 2030 at least one game here at home. So it's so difficult for me not to imagine Messi even, you know.

34:23Okay, let's play this one more game. For all the other players in his generation, of course, this would be, even for Emiliano Martinez, he said that if he won back-to-back titles, he would retire from international football. I'm not sure if it's happening, but for Messi, it's like a completely different universe. I would never dare to say, oh, it's the last game. Although the song that is now being sung in Argentina's dressing room states that it's going to be Leo's last cup. So let's see. He doesn't sing that song, though. Martin Mazur. On the subject of Messi's longevity, I'm sure everyone's seen the remarkable picture from 19 years ago when for that UNICEF-sponsored initiative, he bathed a sweet baby Lamin-Yamal and the odds of those two figures 19 years on coming to meet each other in a World Cup final, I mean, you wouldn't want to put a number on it, would you, Tim?

35:37I mean, I'd like to. Would you like to? I love the quote. I love the quote from Luis de la Fuente, the Spain manager, who said, maybe Lionel Messi has picked up lots of babies but it's or maybe it's chance but for those of us who have faith who believe in something beyond chance is God's pseudonym when he doesn't want to sign his name so that is a nice turn of phrase isn't it he's basically pointed at some kind of divine providence yeah there's some kind of destiny there and it's hard not to think that when you think of the baby in the font Messi I mean I remember when the photograph first went viral on social media I saw it four or five times and saw that it was purported to be Messi cradling an infant Lemony Mal.

36:20And I was like, well, that's obviously Photoshop or something. That would be absurd. It is absurd. Messi goes out onto the pitch tomorrow knowing that he has held the most dangerous play on the composition in his hands. Yeah. It's so weird. So mad. It's not like it's just... If it was just two players meeting in the final, if it was just the two backup goalkeepers, it would be like insane. But the fact that it's the two protagonists, The fact that this is the first time they're ever playing against each other, I think I'm right in saying, in a match, and it's a World Cup final. Oh, sorry, Messi and Jamal.

36:52Yeah. And also, so much of Argentinian football banter is about telling people, we're your dad, or our favourite player is your dad. And their best player has literally bathed the infant version of the opposition star man. It's all coming up Argentina again, is it, potentially? Can they recreate that at some point on Sunday? That would be fantastic. It'd be quite the goal celebration, if they're hands across the divide. Yeah. Do the real-life Babetto Romario, but it might be tricky for Messi to pick Yamal up on his own. He might need some teammates. It'd be amazing if they did it and Yamal's wriggling to get free.

37:32Spain. We haven't seen Yamal be quite Lamin Yamal yet. We've seen flashes, haven't we? Who's seen flashes? And, like, you know, lovely flashes. but he's scored one goal which was a tap-in against Saudi Arabia I think and he's frequently been the player who your eye is drawn to but we're waiting for a signature performance Which we may or may not get given these injury issues coming in the Achilles etc Tim though you pointed out the fact that both these finalists didn't beat Cape Verde and when you think back to the opening game when Spain had that goalless draw it seemed hilarious and we all thought well why was everyone getting so worked up why was Paul Malouse so confident about their chances in this but Laminia Marlachos didn't start that game his growing influence is perhaps one of the factors but should we be focusing elsewhere in the team is that what you're about to say to us yeah potentially yeah I mean they have sort of you know lost they're blossomed and grown into the tournament a bit like sort of Jed Spence and we're putting team form and uh yeah they've had a few match winners obviously Iathabel and Marino with his two late winners but I mean what's his name Rodri that guy is probably their match winner you know because because they are they play as a team they control games they're much more sort of fluid and complete than Argentina are and yeah but Jamal has still grown in influence more of a distraction than anything I mean France put three on him in the semis and we've seen in in the quarters and the semis that that has freed Pedro Porro up to be influential in both those games.

39:06Right. Has that been the big surprise about Spain, the way that the full-backs have had that kind of influence? I think so. You know, we've made the comparison quite a lot between this Spain and Euro 2024 Spain who are all about the wingers. Jamal has this incredible tournament, Nico Williams on the other side, similarly. And this tournament, Nico Williams was injured at the start. Jamal was carrying an injury. So they've had to look elsewhere for goals and attacking inspiration. They had that very stodgy opening game against Cape Verde. and it's almost as if the full-backs have not entirely stepped into the voyage but I don't think any of us imagine that we've been talking about Pedro Porro as one of the players of the tournament before the World Cup began but he's been extremely influential, scored the second goal against France and I think this is what great teams, tournament winning teams do.

39:57They go into a tournament with a plan of attack and if that doesn't quite work out they find other ways to play, They find other weapons to use. And I think the full-backs, and Porra in particular, are perfect examples of that. Of course, Argentina find a way in every game. Neither of these teams lose, I should say. Spain, what is it now, 37 matches? 37, yeah. Argentina, no knockout game defeats since 2019. No competitive defeats, I don't think. No competitive, but in knockout games, because of course, Saudi Arabia at the last World Cup. That makes more sense than what I said, yeah. The way that they managed to come back against England, we've all put down a lot to England's attitude.

40:41Are Spain equipped to do exactly what England should have done against Argentina? Of course, yeah. Certainly if they score first. First goal is going to be massive, I think. I don't think it's going to be a high-scoring game necessarily. I know we've seen a lot of Argentina comebacks, but I feel like if Spain do take the lead in this game, they obviously have the ability and the possession to just play it out. I mean, you know, I know they were 2-0 up against France, but they were giving it the olés, they were flicking it over French players' heads in stoppage time. That's just ridiculous. You hate to see it.

41:08It's ridiculous. But I think on paper, I think analysing the teams and them as a match-up, it's Spain's game. But Argentina just... But Leo Messi? Obviously, they've got the greatest player of all time, does help a little bit. And they're just surviving on emotion and this utter never-say-die attitude. know I heard from Martin earlier you know the sort of emotions involved in this you see why the lad Barco does what does what he does in the in the semi-final you know running on and antagonizing the England players their emotions just sort of you know right there for them they like being backed into a corner it's all it's all pretty powerful this sort of emotional team spirit and never so dire attitude that they've fostered over many many years now it's all muscle memory to them and they just start playing whenever they need to you know it's magnificent in many ways what do you think is going to happen on Sunday?

42:03Low scoring you think? Yeah I do think so yeah I think Spain will win narrowly yeah I think it's just a match too far for Argentina maybe I find it hard to count this Argentina team out because they just have this incredible ability to just hang in there and you know I've said it before but they just seem to relish putting their opponents under psychological distress even when they were hammering England when they were still trailing just this sense of like we are in complete control here and this will be horrible to live through and at some point we will find the break you didn't get any sense of panic in the argentinian ranks i mean helped by the fact that there was panic everywhere you looked in england's but i just find the psychological element of this argentina team fascinating a team of absolute bastards and then the greatest footballer of all time you know just like banging in goals with his eyes closed i suspect they'll be quite happy for spain to have the ball spain will want the ball and argentina will kind of you know try and just I guess lull Spain to sleep a little bit by refusing to be broken down and try and drag them into a battle in the way that they did against England a little bit and yeah I can see it being extra time penalties a proper nerve shredder.

43:15The perfect final I think is Spain go 2-0 up and then there's 15 minutes left Messi scores a hat-trick wins the golden boot becomes the greatest World Cup goal scorer of all time, retires and then picks up a naked Luminium Al on the pitch at full time. Why is he naked? Don't ask. He just was. Yeah. I mean, we can dream. We can. That's what football's all about. Magnificent. We'll wrap it up there, but we will be back straight after the final with another of our live streams, with all that that implies. So if you'd like to see us live and direct at work with our hottest of takes on Spain-Argentina, then join us probably about half an hour or so after the final whistle, whenever that may occur on Sunday.

44:05For now, though, it's many, many thanks to Daniel and Martin, who joined us earlier on, and to Tom and Tim, our production crew, and especially to you. We're back on Sunday for the World Cup final. Do hope we'll see you then.