Forest set for 4th manager of the season + FA Cup 4th round weekend

0:00The Athletic FC

0:30to the weekend's FA Cup fixtures in this Totally Football Show.

0:43Thursday, the 12th of February. So good to have you with us, listener. Here in the studio, Liam Thalms with us. Hi, Liam. Hello, good morning. Good morning to you too. I thought I'd be third on the list. I'm in a steam company. Right. Well, you can tuck in now because we'll have a hello with Charlie Eccleshire. Hello. And also with Duncan Alexander. Hello. Very shortly, we're going to be joined by Daniel Story to discuss events. Events, because it's been a quiet midweek. Tuesday's games saw Thomas Frank departing from Tottenham Hotspur. And then in the early hours of Thursday morning, interesting timing with this one, Sean Dyche getting the heave-ho at Forest.

1:26It's their third sacking after Nuno Espirito Santo and his public falling out with Maranakis and Edo. And then Ange Postacoglu, who lasted a full 39 days. And now Sean Dyche goes too. Why that kind of time of day? Were you shocked when you saw the news this morning, Duncan? Yeah, I was up very early and saw it and wasn't surprised. We kind of knew it was coming. Maranakis likes to make decisions post-game, hence the timing. I don't think people were thinking of the American time zones. It was more just, you know, as it happens, it happens. So, yeah. I mean, it's interesting, obviously, because it's the first time in Premier League history a team will have had four permanent managers.

2:10I mean, they'd got three before the clocks went back. So, you know, Deitch had a good... How far can they go? Do you have double figures? I was going to say, if they keep tracking, there's at least one more after this next one, isn't there? at the pace they're at. Yeah, I mean, a few people have remembered Leeds from a few seasons ago when they had three, plus Skubala as a caretaker, briefly. Obviously, Big Sam came in late doors that season. I know you don't like that. Can you have late doors? Oh, not this weekend. That's one for you. Yeah, yeah. We've been through this. I don't like it because it's wrong.

2:36Well, I think you can have it in the theatre. But anyway, Sam came in saying... There's one place you can't have late doors. They're very strict about that. No, you can come in a door late. I've tried to... They lock it, surely. You could break in with an axe. Then it's just the very axe that's been wielded in the Premier League this week. But you say as well, there wasn't a surprise, which obviously isn't because of Maranakis, but they were in sort of fine form. I mean, they've had eight points from the last six. Yeah, here's Gazerelda saying if Forrest were looking for a new boss in their situation, being three points clear of the drop with 12 games to secure safety, wouldn't they look to a manager who got eight points from his last six Premier League games?

3:16like Sean Dyche. But I think it's more, it's less form, it's more kind of the direction and vibe. Yeah, I mean, Dyche kind of threw the players under the bus after they went on the FA Cup against Wrexham. He was critical after some Braga game in the Europa League. I think, unsurprisingly, perhaps, there's a lot of turmoil behind the scenes in Arnaud Forest and I think the players, you know, maybe have the ear of the chairman sometimes. One man who called this for a Sunday night show is top Premier League chronicler and Forest fan, Daniel Storey, who was there at the City Ground on Wednesday for the Deich Denouement and is with us now to tell us all about it.

3:57First of all, is it a sad story this morning, Daniel? I think it's a fairly inevitable story once Forest didn't win. You say I called it. I didn't think that Forest would have more shots than a Deich team had ever managed in a Premier League game before, 35. it sort of says everything you need to know about Forrest that they if they hadn't missed a six on one chance in the first half then Sean Dyche would probably be the manager this morning and everyone would think well they're going to stay up so it'll be alright they didn't take that six on one chance yeah it was good stuff that was incredible I can't recall seeing a cavalry charge like that before there was that one it wasn't as many people but Liverpool against Arsenal at Anfield December 23 and it's basically Rice against I think like five Liverpool attackers and Trent hits the bar and it looks mad.

4:46It looked like a pitch invasion or something. Yeah, but then they all get back at the same sort of time. By the time De Forrest-Parrot actually has the shot, they're all sort of flooding back into the picture. I was desperate for sort of Dominic Schauber's lifestyle, someone to pull back Lorenzo Luca before he could shoot and just take the red card and free kick and we move on and probably win the game 1-0. But yeah, it was a mad old night at the city ground, But it did end with pretty horrific boos, some jeering for Omari Hutchinson, who cost nearly£40 million in the summer and hit two consecutive corners with his left foot straight out of play before getting to the goal.

5:25Daesh at full time tried, the sort of TV cameras panned him and he tried to do a half clap to the crowd and then realised that probably wasn't going to fly this evening and just headed straight down the tunnel. He was sacked by 11pm. And, yeah, I think it's one of those sackings where people will say, well, the points were all right. So I'm surprised this has happened. That's what I said, Daniel. I can't believe anyone would say that. I was just presenting the, you know, the idiot's view, obviously. But I mean, and look, I get that. And Charlie, you are a fellow Premier League chronicler. And that opinion is perfectly valid when you look at points per game.

6:01What I would say is that if you take out a bizarre win at West Ham in which Forrest were awful and didn't deserve to take anything from the game. They have six points from the last nine Premier League games. That includes games against Palace, Leeds, Wolves, Everton, three of those at home. This run of games of Wolves at home, Palace at home and Leeds away was sort of sold as saving season and Forrest took two points from the three games. And I think probably whatever the table tells you are now more likely to go down than West Ham just because of the sheer chaos there. while, irony of ironies, Nuno sits there fairly smugly looking to take us down.

6:39No FA Cup this weekend, Daniel. Fernabashe is going to be the next fixture that's in the Europa League, the first leg of your playoffs to reach the last 16 of that competition. So there's a bit of time for Maranakis to make his next move. Who do you think's on his notepad? I think it'll be Vitor Pereira, who, you know, there's this bizarre situation in the Premier League where Nuno could feasibly manage two teams a season and they both go down. And feasibly, Vitor Pereira could also manage Wolves and Forrest and they could both go down. He's a fairly easy appointment in that he has managed in the Premier League.

7:16He's available. He did keep Wolves up with a sort of mini great escape last season. He has managed Olympiacos with Maranaks before. Really well. I mean, briefly, he won a double there, no? Yeah, and it's always briefly with Vitor Pereira. Well, also with Maranakis as well. It doesn't need time, though. That's fair. But the wider lens shot here is that, as I said, if Forrest scored a six on one last night, then Daesh is probably there. And that isn't a way to run a football club. Also, don't you feel that it's just totally arbitrary, the order in which Daesh has come in? If he hadn't done this stint, they'd probably be sacking someone else and he'd be about to come in.

7:54It's not as if it's because of a philosophy or anything like that. it's totally reactionary and kind of who's available at a given moment. Yeah, but I mean, it's a bit of both in that Forrest wanted to overhaul the playing style with Nuno. They appointed Edu, which is the first massive mistake of the season. Nuno then fell out with Edu and so he left. Mistake number two. They then completed that overhaul of the playing style by appointing Ange Postacoglu, this sort of tactical dogmatist, but in a completely different way to Daesh. He left with a 0 % win ratio. I see he's on the overlap this morning or stick to football this morning sort of talking about criticising former clubs I get that but he was wretched at Forest he left that wasn't a mistake to get rid it was to a point they then went for Dyche which made some sense at the time but it's all it's almost as if Forest had Dyche for too long this season that appointment was just too early if we'd have done that in January rather than October it probably works that's what I mean if he was coming in now he'd probably come in and stay in the shape from a Victor Borrera point of view I saved them for Christmas.

8:56Right. You're just doing it at the wrong time. But in Vitor Pereira terms, this might be kind of peak Vitor Pereira appointing moment. I think they are fairly fortunate to have an obvious identity of next coach in this situation because you talk to sort of Premier League, inverted commas, normies, and they'll say, well, who would go and manage Forrest now? And it's like, well, Vitor Pereira probably would. And there were reports of players not enjoying training under Dyche. for all the 35 shots last night. I mean, seven of them were from central defenders outside the box. There was a lot of bad crossing.

9:31It wasn't, you know, they've created a few good chances, but they weren't very good in terms of execution. And they'll hope to get another lift. They are now the only ever Premier League club or will be with four managers in the same season. They will hope that one last salvage job allows them to survive. They're slightly unfortunate, I suppose, in that it's probably going to take or could take 40 points to stay up this season, where they already have enough points that would have kept them up last season. So that's a slight lurch in Premier League. But they're a club that exists three games away from existential crisis at all times, Forrest.

10:06And putting Dyche into that scenario, I think in hindsight, was probably always going to end this way when he was going to have to be there for seven months, not seven games. And yeah, they might well go down this season. And they deserve it if they do because they finished seventh last year. They were bestowed with plenty of advantages for doing so, including a£200 million summer transfer budget. And they wasted that and they've wasted pretty much everything since, including 35 shots last night. Yeah, I think this all counts a lot against Daish as well. There was a lot of talk back in his Burnley days, back in his Everton days about how good could he be with a team of quality players.

10:42And I know they've been without Chris Wood for big parts of the season. They've sold Alanga, who were two of the real key players at that. The team was built around. But when I've watched them this season in recent games, they've been pretty abject going forward. It's basically been, to what Daniel was saying about the execution, get the ball wide and cross it. And I did a piece on this a while back, and someone left a really great comment on it saying, they're playing with the ghost of Chris Wood up top, thinking he's going to be there in the box, and he just isn't. And there's no real kind of variety for a team which has really got a lot of internationals in there.

11:09It's a good squad, it's a top-half European squad. You could almost say a forest without wood is no forest at all. Well, that's much better than what I was going to say, which was only, isn't that what they got Lorenzo Luca for? And look how that turned out. but yeah. What happened to the team that went and beat Liverpool 3-0 and Spurs 3-0 at home? I mean, do we rewrite those results or was it just that it worked well as a new manager bounce and then petered out? Yeah, I think the general theme of the tenure was that there were some excellent wins. They beat Leeds 3-1 at home, they beat Tottenham 3-0 at home, beat Liverpool 3-0 away, Brentford 2-0 away.

11:45They just never really seemed to gain any momentum and the defeats seemed to linger long in the memory than any of those wins. And if I thought Daesh had two strengths, one would be organising a defence at set pieces. That's not really improved. And the other would be when you do get something to really dig your teeth into, to kind of keep as yours and to use as fuel for the next games. I thought he'd be really good at that. And he's been unable to do that as well. So yeah, it's simply a case that the strengths they thought they were getting with Daesh are not there anymore. It's also worth saying that opposition teams have completely worked Forrest out under Daesh, which is give them the ball and they struggle to score because Daesh has now played, I think, 10 matches as a Premier League manager with 62 % possession or more last night being the 10th.

12:34And he's not won any of those games. So you let Forrest have the ball. As Liam says, they'll cross it and cross it and cross it, or they'll pass it around and then cross it. And it just doesn't lead to many high value chances. I was curious to be reminded, Daniel, that all of this has kind of come about because of the falling out between Nuno and Edu back at the start of the season. Is there any feeling at Forest that they backed the wrong horse on that? I mean yeah I mean every every single supporter is shouting exactly that at the moment to each other on WhatsApp online at the game last night yeah they did back the wrong horse and they didn't need in hindsight they didn't need to overhaul everything after having their best season since 1995 that was an absolute nonsense to do so I understand the need for ambition or the desire for ambition but it can hold you down as much as it can take you up if you let it kind of strangle what was working and that's what's happened at Forest they backed the wrong horse It was interesting in January that two of Edu's or Kier Drabchian's clients, who is also Edu's agent in Douglas Luiz and Zinchenko, their loans were ended.

13:38Vito Pereira is a George Mendez client. Nuno was a George Mendez client. Forrest have worked with George Mendez before. I don't know if that's a symbol of things changing or just Uncle George giving them a ring when they're desperate. we will wait and see but yeah they've completely balked everything from pretty much the last day of the season onwards this summer it didn't help that they didn't know which European competition they were in and that delayed transfer business that wasn't their fault at all but everything else in that point has made it's made things harder rather than easier and then the great disappointment of this season is that I think every Forest fan thought however disappointing the league campaign will be at least we'll have that first European season and now those European games are everything they could do without.

14:22They've got Liverpool and Manchester City in the next two league games. That's going to be for a new manager. That's why I would have got rid of Dyche if you weren't convinced. I'd have got rid of him after the Wrexham FA Cup defeat in January, which was before Arsenal at home. And then they had this run of games where they really could take on points. Now they're left with two games against Fenerbahce, Liverpool, Manchester City, Brighton away, Tottenham at home, which is fairly season-defining.

14:51Daniel's story. What a week it's been. It's going to be an incredible Uber Eats advert. With Thomas Frank, Sean Dyche there. Not quite sure what the location will be. Yeah, pages. They can have some fun with it. Wow. Well, we'll talk about where that leaves the league and the relegation battle when we touch on some of the other games. The results, anyway, in this second part of Matchday 26, as mentioned 0-0 between Forest and Wolves with Lorenzo Luca squandering the game's biggest chance elsewhere Man City beating Fulham 3-0 just for a change City thus moving three points behind Arsenal the Gunners play tonight as we record Thursday at Brentford Liam will be going along to that Liverpool became the first visiting team since May May was it to win at Sunderland yep a 1-0 victory that moves them two points behind Chelsea in fifth Chelsea of course only drew on Tuesday night.

15:49There were heroics from Emi Martinez and a Brighton own goal late on to help Villa beat Brighton 1-0. And there were absolute scenes at Salhouse Park between Palace and Burley. Palace went 2-0 up, then conceded three in about five minutes to a team that hadn't won since when? October. October? Madness. We'll be hearing from Ruben Pinder, who was there a little bit later on. Next up, though, let's check in on Manchester City and their 3-0 win over Fulham. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. This is Haaland trying to get his shot away.

16:24Oh, he does. That's some finish there. Well, he's already written the record books time and time again, but Fulham are his favourite chapter. It's 18-8 against the Cottagers. Well, Charlie, Wednesday night you were watching City putting the pressure on Arsenal, closing the gap with the leaders to three points with a 3-0 win against the Cottagers. City always beat Fulham. Good Lord, they've won their last 20 meetings. That's the longest winning run any side has ever had against any other team in English football history. Wow. It's crazy. How did this one rank among them? Probably somewhere in the middle.

17:05I can't say I can remember all of those wins. It was very comfortable. It looked really uncomfortable. I mean, they look miserable out there in the rain. Yeah, and on that, I do wonder if all the rain has contributed to all these midweek sackings. Managers look particularly forlorn, sort of stood there in the pouring rain. There's that pathetic fallacy element. And we know they can't use an umbrella. They can't use an umbrella. So they just stand there getting drenched, looking really sad and pathetic and more sackable, I think. But yeah, luckily, neither of the managers involved in this game are in that conversation.

17:38City were really good. And, you know, I think everyone sort of thought that their win against Liverpool was kind of the launch of their title charge. You know, they've been on the precipice. You know, they were nine points behind and got back to eight. And then obviously by winning, they did six. And they carried on that momentum. I think, you know, getting Ruben Diaz back is really significant. It means they've got Diaz and Gehi as a partnership. whereas for the last sort of six weeks they've been without kind of either one or you know because Guardiola and Diaz went off injured at the start of January and Rodri it looks like is sort of getting back to being able to play pretty regularly so they've got a bit of that solidity back and that's the thing that they've been lacking and then this sort of fabled run that everyone's been sort of waiting on all season then maybe this is going to be the time.

18:33Because they'd been in dreadful form, obviously, before that Liverpool game. Was it one win in six? Yeah. And back-to-back wins now, keeping the pressure on. I mean, Liverpool is impressive, but they do always beat Fulham. Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, it's a weird thing because also it's kind of hard to talk about either a City game or an Arsenal game without knowing what's happened with the other because it's so zero-sum. I mean, like the weekend that's just happened, And, you know, Arsenal beat Sunderland on the Saturday, went nine points clear. That seemed like quite a significant result. By the end of the weekend, the way it was being talked about was as if they'd sort of lost ground somehow because obviously City won the much harder game and did it in dramatic circumstances.

19:12So I guess we'll have a better sense of this result after what happens with Arsenal tonight. But they did what they needed to do and they're in good form. Goals from Semenya, that's now seven goals or assists for Antoine Semenya in eight games since joining City. Nico O 'Reilly with a lovely second goal. And then Erling Haaland with his first non-penalty goal in the Premier League since Christmas. Very well taken one. It was two. Arsenal at Brentford Lim. You're going along. Kai Havertz won't be involved. He's going to be out for a couple of weeks, I think. Is that right? Is it a muscle injury?

19:44Yeah. That's a big blow. I mean, that's quite significant, I think. Especially at a time when they've got other attackers missing. Right. And his return. His return has been really key. I think you look at someone like Jokeres' form has really picked up since Havertz came back. I don't think that's a coincidence. Havertz is sort of known as this guy who makes other players play better around him. He's one of those kind of facilitators. He's very intelligent. And it's a worry. I mean, it's a bit like what happened with Rodri coming back from a serious injury. He then picked up a muscular injury.

20:12He was out for a while. You see this quite often, kind of overcompensating and what have you. So, yeah, I think he's going to be out for a few weeks. Misses the North London derby. But yeah, I mean, there are question marks tonight over Trossard, Odegaard and Saka. Saka's obviously been out for 10 days or so since that Leeds game. Odegaard missed the last game. Trossard went off on the weekend against Sunderland. So yeah, they could really do with some of those players being available because, yeah, Havertz is a big miss for them. It's a real test of squad depth now, right? Winning the Premier League.

20:41It's really no longer about just how good is your first choice starting XI. It's kind of that squad. I mean, City are a great example of this. I mean, a word for Nico O 'Reid, I think, who's been fantastic this season. He's incredibly versatile as well. I mean, I'm amazed I don't hear more talk about him kind of in relation to the England squad for the upcoming World Cup. Someone that can play full-back, can play central midfield. Really, really good technically, really good physically as well. Really good off-ball running, really good on the underlap. It was a really nice finish last night as well.

21:08And it's kind of enabled that different iteration we see of City now, where they've got this real pace and quality at full-back. Mateus Nunes off the right as a function of playing a midfielder there. And Pep's spoken a lot about that, of saying that he's a midfielder, but he's got the capacity, he's got the crossing quality, which makes sense when you've got Erling Haaland up top. And City have really lent into kind of being a more transitional team this year, really hitting teams on counterattacks. Makes sense, they've got the pace, they've added to that with Semenya, a really good ball carrier.

21:33So again, I think City always seem to reinvent themselves a bit under Guardiola, but I think this way they're leaning into how the Premier League is going more. Often City have been, I think, a bit against the grain. They've always been the possession team, the pressing team, and now they're saying, we'll take in swing corners, we'll take a long throw now and then, we'll play on the counterattack. I think it's been really good fun to watch. Daichi. Interesting. I enjoyed the fact this game ended 3-0 as well because, let's be honest, Fulham should not bother turning up to these matches. They should just forfeit.

21:59And that forfeit is a 3-0 win. Fulham ended up with a higher XG. Is that right? Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, City basically, you know, were playing at walking pace in the second half. Didn't you see his bizarre run of not playing very well in the second half? Yeah, it did, yeah. But then they haven't conceded a first-half goal in the league since they played Fulham in December. And they did once employ Svengorn Eriksen. The corner of the phrase, first half good, second half not so good. So it makes you think. It does, doesn't it? We'll find out what happens, of course, on Thursday night in that key Brentford-Arsenal game.

22:32Brentford coming off back-to-back victories in the league, away at Villa and then also away at Newcastle. Meanwhile, on Wednesday, Liverpool became the first travelling side to win a Premier League match at the Stadium of Light this season. 1-0, Virgil van Dijk's header, which was then, I thought touched in off somebody on the line, was it not? It is. Headed in. Right. It was on target. It's fine. I was also largely able to watch this game because of the different kick-off times. Right. It wasn't a thriller. Well, the first half, which you missed. Yeah, different from City. No, I was just going to say, the first half, which you missed, because you were still watching.

23:09Yes, but by this point, I was sort of double screening. Not a lot happened in the first half of this one, I would say. Sunderland-Liverpool. It was an attritional match. Yeah, I mean, it's a very handy win for Liverpool, and especially Chelsea and Manchester United get dropped points. So now just three points separating. United in fourth, Chelsea in fifth, and Liverpool in sixth. Crikey. And Brentford, if they win tonight, will be level with Liverpool. So, yeah. What a race that would be there and a little bit further up. Our league. the cursed right back position at Liverpool suffered with Oturo Endo was horrible one of those injuries that when you see it you know exactly what happened and you don't want to watch the replay but your brain says just watch it again, oh no I shouldn't have done that and it was quite sweet the way he got up and was like no I'll defend this corner but Liverpool had a bad thing this season of carrying on playing, did it at Bournemouth where putting themselves in dangerous positions because of a refusal to play the percentages.

24:15He was hobbling around because of his bad injury. Sunderland had probably their strongest spell for the second half while that was happening. Sunderland, who have missed Granit Xhaka while he's been out. Is that the difference between...? It does feel pretty significant. They do lose so much without him. How good a player he is, but also his presence, how much he's the leader of that team. So, yeah, that's been hard. I think there was always going to be a natural levelling off a little bit. I mean, you know, yeah, exactly. Their underlying numbers were, you know, a bit Villery. Right. Sunderland now in 11th spot.

24:53While Liverpool, as mentioned, just outside the Champions League position. Speaking of Villa, they did get a win midweek to keep pace with the leaders. Three points behind City and six behind Arsenal. We'll catch up on their performance next.

25:13This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli Kay, and the very best football writers around. Villa fans, it's time to talk about your brave Aston Villa. 1-0 against Brighton, an own goal from Jack Hinshelwood after Brighton had peppered Emi Martinez's goal. Liam you were watching this Peppard might be a bit generous there were shots on his goal there's one really good save from a Ferdy Kelly shot from range where he tips it onto the bar it was quite a decisive touch it's going to just creep in another attritional game actually the weather this week has definitely contributed to that I think Brighton were fairly brave they went pretty man to man in the press high energy midfielders saying he wanted a response after the defeat at Hunter Palace they definitely got that And after Tim Spears' comments on Sunday night, which no doubt were pinned up.

26:11I was thinking you'd pin a video in the dressing room. Someone will have typed those up and handed them out. Yeah, or like Arteta when he gets the tweet up of Tony about a nice kick about with the boys. So Tim Spears was saying, sorry to interrupt me. Tim Spears was saying Brighton are, what were his words, a nothing team, I think, without identity. He also talked about Herzl being in trouble. I'm not sure what the mood is amongst Brighton supporters like yourself. Yeah, there's obviously a lot of disdain for what I think is something like one win in 12 or 11 now. One in 13. One in 13, okay. Seagulls were fifth at the start of December.

26:47Doesn't feel like that long ago, but you're already 14th. Basically, it's been relegation form since that high point. Yeah, they tend to do this a lot in seasons where they start quite well. And there's a reason why they tend to be well clear of the drought plateau a bit in the middle of the season. It wasn't quite as bad last year, but they did actually end last season with a really good winning run at the end, which put them back in European contention. They had big wins against Spurs and Liverpool at the end of the season. I'd probably come out a bit more on the apologists' side with Hurts.

27:13I think overall, his job's been quite good. You can look at the points per game record. He's about as good as De Zerbi was. There's obviously been a lot of clamour for him. But the Spears' point is interesting in the sense that they're probably trying to be more flexible than ever before. There's the balance of, OK, you go from... This is a bit like Spurs going from Postacogli to Frank in a similar way, where you say, OK, how much does your identity matter? Do you need to be a team where you say we're always going to play in a repeatable way? We're going to try and score a lot of goals we were already attacking.

27:41That's never really been a hurtless thing. They don't concede as many now. They're not ever kind of hit big. They had that one big defeat at Forest about a year ago and never since then have they been well beaten. But the problem now is that the goals are drying up really. Danny Welbeck had a great run, scored a lot of goals, has had a back injury. Kareem Matoma has come back from injury and not quite looked as sharp. And obviously so much of his game is reliant on his speed. Diego Gomez appeared to have cashed in all of his goals in one game at Barnsley in the League Cup early this year and just currently they don't really have enough goals in the team So the season is petering out a little bit, I mean there's probably fairgrounds to Sack Herzler on how poor the run of form has been but I think this is generally a club where they tend to stick by a coach, De Zerbe had maybe not as bad as this and Potter as well similarly bad, kind of long runs and it's weird obviously the amount that they've spent gets held up against Hertha as well but the tricky part is this club or this team keep reinventing themselves, right?

28:41They keep selling the best players second behind Chelsea for the player sales made sold their top scorer again last summer sold Gio Pedro so they've got a weird amount of depth in place it's kind of like the wingers in the number 10 role but they're not always in midfield and at the back they're quite light they've not really got a second choice striker behind Danny Welbeck they've got two Greek youngsters and one of them is out with an ACL injury So it's a team that are quite imbalanced and they're probably about where they should be in the table. I think if it's a season where the promoted teams haven't done as well or been as competitive, then they'd probably be a couple of places higher in points better off.

29:14But there's definitely fair clamour for a team that have been in European football. Do they have a few games? They are. And this has become a weird conspiracy theory among Brighton fans that Fabian Herz is genuinely playing Milner in order to get him an appearance record instead of trying to win games and see how it results. What would be in it for Herz? I think it falls apart very quickly, right? He loves Premier League trivia. Hurts is younger than Milner, so maybe Milner's just saying, you'd better play me or take your lunch money. I mean, it's an amazing idea that that's genuinely what's going on.

29:43And it's kind of transpired because Brighton conceded a couple of late goals in games where there was a free kick away to Fulham that Harry Wilson scored in a central-ish position. And people were saying, oh, Milner, his fault that you've conceded it there. There was a really late goal against Everton they conceded which isn't really any midfielder's fault. It's a cross that dunk doesn't clear properly, shot comes in, keeper parries the rebound, back out to the striker. But Myrtle's jogging around the edge of the pit. Yeah, it's one of those things where I think the club has definitely kind of stalled a bit.

30:15And look, maybe this is an easier position for me to have as someone that sees more football teams just because of what I do for kind of this job. But we've been speaking about Forrest, who is generally a bit mental what's going on there. West Ham as well can be a bit chaotic where you go, So, OK, if they're having a bad season in their 14th, that is OK in the grand scheme of things. It's not good, but it could be a lot, lot worse. So it's a fine balance between saying, you're right, this is a team and a squad, and the money they spend should be aspirational for Europe. But if this is kind of the drop-off, maybe I'm unpopular for thinking this.

30:44It's not an absolute nightmare. Also, you're able to zoom out a little bit as well. And obviously, fans view it. And again, you never want to tell fans, I'm not going to say, care for what you wish for or anything like that. But isn't the reality... Yeah, it isn't the reality. They'll probably level off and finish about 10th, 11th. Which isn't to say you shouldn't dream bigger or whatever, but for the job he's doing, I just think if you actually look at it in the round, he's doing a sort of about par job. But obviously it gets boring quite quickly if you feel like you're not going anywhere and you have a bad run and it's like, well, why don't we change the manager?

31:20We've got nothing to lose because they're probably not going to get ridiculed. It's a quiet week. Let's change manager. Well, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, next week maybe. Dietrich is available. Nobody likes mid-table, do they? This is the thing. No one likes the transitional season. You'd almost rather be in a relegation scrap and have something to fight for in that kind of, I think, Well, Charlie uses the phrase zoom out. Well, I remember being in the way end with Dean and just about seeing the nearest girl. That comes up as a discussion, right, where there's a split in the fan base. I'm aware we're talking for hours here on Brighton.

31:50We can move this on. But there's fans that will say, OK, you think about where the club's come from and there's probably a younger generation, probably the generation that I'm in, that say, look, that doesn't kind of matter anymore. You've earned the right to be this established, settled Premier League club where you say, how long are you going to kind of go, oh, it was bad once, so now we should be grateful for anything. No, we've made it to Europe. We've got to Wembley and had cup runs. We've kind of set the bar there. And I think the actual fair dynamic and probably where the club at is somewhere in the middle of that, right, of saying you can kind of do a bit of both.

32:20I mean, but to broaden that to football generally in the Premier League, I think this season has shown whether it's Crystal Palace or whether it's Nottingham Forest, whether it's Brighton, whether it's even Newcastle, that you can have success in a season. But unless you're one of the very biggest clubs, you can't just go again and again. And it's tough. It is tough. Liam, thank you so much for sharing that with us. Next up, for balance, we'll hear from a Palace supporter. Palace who are, I probably don't need to tell you, a point and a place above the Seagulls in the Premier League right now.

32:55And that's the real title battle. Very good. Palace were involved in that crazy 3-2 defeat at home to Burnley. We'll find out what happened there next. The flick on. Oh, it's a no goal.

33:12This is extraordinary. Burnley lead by three goals to two. All right then, Crystal Palace Burnley, which, well, Ruben Pinder finished 3-2. The midweek's maddest game. You were there and you join us now. Thank you so much. So what actually happened to us by Palace were 2-0 up and cruising with the first two goals from open play this season from Jürgen Stren Larsson. Yeah, I mean, I wish I could explain what exactly happened. Chronologically, the first half an hour goes really well for Palace. 17 minutes and then another 15 later Strand Larsson scores two really good goals the sort of goals that have been missing from Palace's season with Mateta up top nice running behind and a kind of not a volley but a kind of ball was bouncing smashed it past keeper and like a really nice low header proper traditional centre forward play for the second goal his chant is being belted around Selhurst how does it go Ruben?

34:10he's Scandinavian he hates the Albion which is of course not original stolen off Wolves but works for both clubs. And then everybody's, the fans are buoyant. It's like, oh, everything's going to be fine. And I feel like that complacency maybe the players had as well because suddenly every time Palace lost the ball, Burnley were cutting through Palace's midfield, creating chances, not like clear-cut chances, but good enough. And when I was watching the highlights back, I didn't really notice this at the time, but the lack of backwards running when Palace's forward players lost the ball was quite alarming.

34:48And they did look quite tired, which I feel like I've said a lot this season, but they are. Burnley looked like someone had lit a fire under them. Yeah, they were impressive on the break. And this is a classic problem that Palace have had all season. Can't break down low blocks because Glasner is quite one-dimensional. It's mid-block, steal the ball, counter. we can't even really counter that well from defending deeper than that. So it's very like we can only do one thing. And the kind of double whammy effect of not being able to break down the low block is that when Palace lose the ball trying to do that and it's just like hopeful crosses swung into a crowd of bodies when that ball gets cleared and the opposition have fast strikers and you have like Will Hughes and Chris Richards kind of trying to chase back we're also very vulnerable to the counter.

35:37So returning to your chronology you guys are 2-0 up. And then Burnley strike motherlode with three goals in six, seven minutes. Seven minutes, I think. And go from being 2-0 down to 3-2 up by half-time. Only the second time ever in Premier League history that a visiting team has done that. Who were the other team, Duncan? Tottenham Hotspur, away in Newcastle in 1995. Kevin Keegan's Newcastle. And all that, right. A crazy time. Right. This not Kevin Keegan's Newcastle, this Oliver Glasner's for now. Crystal Palace. You mentioned complacency there, which certainly rings true from what you're saying, but this is a Crystal Palace side who hadn't won any of their previous seven games at home, so it feels weird that they would be complacent, even at 2-0 up, unless the whole circumstances of the manager, perhaps, having already announced that he's doing one, meant that everyone's kind of written the season off.

36:30Yeah, it's difficult to really analyse with any great confidence like that how those intangible things are affecting the players um so they definitely shouldn't be complacent from the point of view of thinking they're doing really well because obviously the form speaks for itself over the last 10 games they'd be bottom of the form table but i do think that like it it's the the rare occasion where the cliche of two nil is the most dangerous scoreline actually comes true i feel that we hear how rare it is something that's not That's what happened since 1995. But people still say it. And this was, like I said, the one prayer occasion where it came true.

37:06It didn't make any sense. I think there's an element of fatigue, an element of resignation that the manager's going at the end of the season. Possibly earlier. Could resignation be a word that we... Well, I mean, managers don't resign anymore, do they? He tried his best to talk himself into the sack. He did on Monday, actually. Yeah, he's a unique case. OK. Right, yeah, so you don't feel that he'll be stepping down. Might the club, this was his 100th game in charge, sadly, and it ended with the booze ringing out at Salhurst Park. Yeah, well, it's the sort of form that got Patrick Vieira sacked three years ago.

37:40Glasner tried his best to talk himself into the sack recently and Steve Parrish didn't bite. That's what it felt like anyway. But, you know, now that Thomas Frank yesterday, at the time of recording, was sacked and died today, this morning, that news break. Now that those managers are available, maybe... Really? You think Paris were waiting for Dinesh and Frank to be available before? Well, this is based on no information, but my gut feeling was that Glasner stayed around because Paris didn't have a backup plan. Right. Because the toxicity is not helpful to anyone. But now that things are moving in the managerial market, maybe, maybe...

38:16What about Big Ang, if you want a European proof of way? Yeah, I mean, he might be... He knows how to take a team 17th but win a European trophy, which is kind of where Palace are tracking. And at least tries to play attacking football. Was it the weirdest first half you've ever witnessed at Salis Park, Ruben? Yeah, in terms of the contrast in mood and how quickly it happened, we went from laughing and singing to, felt like one of my friends was going to have a heart attack on the brink of half-time. There were shouts of sack him in the tunnel, which obviously, you know, it's emotions running high.

38:48Which obviously didn't happen, just to be clear. Yeah, it was really bizarre. and I thought I was finally going to see Palace win at Selhurst Park in the Premier League again. We've only won two games at home in the league this season against Liverpool with that famous Nketiah last-minute winner. It's famous, thank you. And Brentford, we beat Brentford, but I wasn't there for that game. So I've only seen us win once at home in the Premier League all season. Right. I mean, there are some fans who haven't even seen once, I guess. Yeah. crikey what do you think about Burnley after witnessing that first half they asked nine points from safety still I mean I don't think much about them ever but they they keep you up at night no they will now but I mean yeah they were somewhat impressive they were get that in Latin on the pad they attacked really quickly you know Anthony and Hannibal Hannibal scored a good goal he was very busy in midfield and kind of got away from Kamada and Wharton.

39:55He likes to rattle players, doesn't he, Hannibal? But it didn't feel like it was very hard for them to get back into the game. The goals that they scored were very much like just a passive defence letting things happen. Not to take too much credit away from them. They did score three goals but I don't think it's the beginning of a resurgence to survive or put it that way. Okay. Their first win in 108 days and 17 Premier League matches. Ruben. who's up next for Palace nothing in the FA Cup of course because Macclesfield yep thanks for the reminder yeah a weekend off for the players and then a trip to Bosnia and Herzegovina where we play Mostar in the conference league and then Wolves so in theory after the Brighton yeah well after the Brighton win at the weekend the thinking was nice run of games now get the season back on track and then obviously lose to Burnley midweek.

40:50No easy games in our league. Or the Conference League, apparently. Not done well in that either. All right, well, best of luck, Ruben. We'll see what further news comes out, given their extended break from Silhas Park about the manager's future and plans going forward. For now, many, many thanks, Ruben Pinder. Thank you.

41:14Palace currently, one, two, three, four, five, six, eight points off the bottom three so yeah probably alright you think I reckon that'll be alright because Duncan here was saying everyone from Palace Down which includes Brian yeah I think so really Liam I think Duncan is a man of data surely the amount of teams in there that are kind of on for a low to mid 40 point season this is currently between Forrest and West Ham I want a fully fledged we've just had two seasons of the Premier League teams going straight back down I want a I think Leeds could they're the only team I look at really and think could get sucked into it properly.

41:51Really? I think Spurs, Brighton and Palace, I just can't see. I just think they will get one point behind the... I think it's fine. I mean, they're shape-switching earlier this season, the change to the back three. I just want to survive on Sunday. I don't think any of us really know. So, let's move on to something in the rather more immediate future, which is the FA Cup fourth round coming up this weekend.

42:21you're listening to the totally football show with james richardson now with you four times a week keep up to date with us on insta and enjoy us in glorious technicolor on youtube at the totally show epic up fourth round it begins on friday no less than two games on the friday hull hosting chelsea so trip down memory lane for liam resenia that's also this is very niche but you know that meme of one normal day at Barclays that's all I ask the picture, like Conte never said that obviously, but the picture of him that's used for that meme is after Hull City versus Chelsea 10 years ago this year what does he say?

43:02Oh he just gives a fairly normal interview, I think he talks about like the, they've just switched systems and all of that it was that game after they'd switched and then went on that crazy run, he doesn't really say anything, he says nothing I thought he said one normal day no no no he says the Barclays has been added in no no no incredible yeah it's it's just one of those etymology of memes here yeah thank you Charlie I'll send you the link you can get that interview they put it up and everyone's all the comments are like what when does he say the Barclays thing but it's actually quite weird watching it now because it's like yeah there's an uncanny valley of Conte so the FA Cup fourth round anyway gets underway on Friday with Hull City taking on Chelsea.

43:47Also Friday, Wrexham host Ipswich Town. Disappointingly, same division clash. If it's two very different divisions you were after, Duncan, you can't say fairer than non-league Macclesfield FC, who knocked out the holders' Crystal Palace, of course, in the third round in what is statistically the biggest upset in terms of difference of places. I didn't enjoy that chat. Michael sort of form a league club with a very flat pitch. It just didn't feel right to me. Anyway, they knocked out Crystal Palace and they will now take on another Premier League opponent in the shape of Brentford. Well, actually, it is Brentford, not just Brentford-shaped.

44:32Arsenal host Wigan Athletic of League One. Manchester City face Salford City of League Two. Salford who they played last year in the Cup a narrow 8-0 win that time Look out on the Athletic tomorrow for a piece by Conor O 'Neill looking at the much suggested thing that City get easy draws in the FA Cup What's the answer? Well I'm not going to reveal but there's some stunning findings I hope there's also proof that Brighton get the worst away draws of any team well we'll see won't we but my hunch is that fans of clubs only remember their own club's ties and that affects their thinking Man City who in the third round faced Exeter City and beat them 10-1 I prefer not to speak that match to City Aston Villa they're in the fourth round after beating Spurs last time they welcome Newcastle to Villa Park it's actually the third meeting of the season the Magpies yet to find the net against the Villains Liverpool play your friends Brighton, Liam.

45:42Leeds are off to Birmingham City in an NFL-flavoured clash. Patriots and 49ers. Yeah. West Ham goes League One, Burton Albion. Wolves against Grimsby Town of League Two, who, of course, have already staged a major upset this season. Could they be on the end of one against Wolves? Ooh. I see what you've done there, Charlie Eccleshire. Of course, the previous upset was in the League Cup where they knocked out Ruben Amarim's Manchester United. Sunderland go to Oxford. Oh, right. What other games did I miss? Three-sided ground. Yes. A real level if the wind's up. And are there any other games that I've forgotten to mention?

46:25There are a few, but yeah. Stoke-Fulham. Stoke-Fulham's a game. Macclesfield-Brentford. That happens on Monday night. John Rooney's side, brother of Wayne, knocking out Crystal Palace. It might not have been the biggest ever for you, Duncan, but it was pretty huge. What are their prospects against Brentford? I mean, they'll be hoping for the same, won't they? Sort of middle-ish Premier League team from London. I'm sure Brentford will have learnt their lesson. I think what was really striking about the Crystal Palace game was just how lackadaisical Palace were early on and really the first few challenges they lost and that kind of set the tone.

47:05You'd imagine Keith Andrews... Yeah, I was going to say, you wouldn't expect Brentford to be out-physicalised like that. Yeah, exactly. They might relish it. What about Arsenal's game against Wigan? Right, it's like Wigan. Well, so they sacked Ryan Lowe on Sunday, who you may know from his... Calamite. Yeah, his habit of speaking about unfortunate events as a Calamite. Calamite, if I'm being honest, was Calamite. Conceived another Calamite goal. And, well, what an unfortunate event for him. You would have to say, as he gets dismissed this Sunday because of their poor form, they've replaced him with a pair of caretaker managers.

47:46Liam, do you know what the caretaker managers are called? No. Whelan and Barrow. I love that. Yeah, straight from the Weimar Republic. Slightly niche, but yes. Glenn Whelan, of course. Will it inflate their chances of... Well, as a League One observer, as I am, Wigan were tipped by some to be up in and around the playoffs this season and have really struggled. They've got a very good goalkeeper, though, Sam Tickle. Oh, yeah? Mr. Tickle, long arms, etc., etc. But he is very good, and I think he will be off to a higher division next season, whatever happens. I wouldn't expect him to be busy. You wouldn't expect him to be busy, albeit with an Arsenal-rotated team.

48:29Right. But Arteta, even when he rotates, still keeps it fairly strong. Yeah, I mean, he was pretty rotated for the Portsmouth game in the third round. I mean, yeah, these two teams played each other in the FA Cup semi-final 12 years ago. You went there. That was the last time they met? That probably was the last time they met, yeah. According to my notes, yeah. In the semis, the Gunners just got through on penalties with a certain Mikel Arteta scoring from the spot. It also was the game that featured, I think I'm right in saying, Kim Kallstrom's only contribution in an Arsenal shirt. Yeah, he scored his penalty as well.

49:05I mean, you think the Arsenal fans get talked about as being hugely neurotic and tense at the moment, but this game came off the back of a nine-year trophy drought. It was absolute desperation. And Wigan, I think, had beaten City in the previous round, which kind of cleared the way for Arsenal to finally go on to win something. Then they went behind. I think Murtasaka equalised. It was this incredibly kind of tense, frazzled performance. But then actually the penalty shootout, Arsenal scored all of theirs and Wigan missed a couple. But it was an incredibly nervy affair. Right. The Latics, who won this competition 13 years ago, they have one member of that FA Cup winning side.

49:43Callum McManaman, still in the squad. He's now 34. They've also got Jamie Carragher's son playing for them. His name is James Carragher. League One is full of figures from the Premier League's sons knocking around. You've got Max Deitch at Northampton. That's right. Yeah. Check it out. And others. And others. All right. Well, anyway, that's Arsenal Wigan, which you'd have Arsenal's strong favourites to go through. The man Wigan reportedly wants to be their new permanent manager is Exeter boss Gary Corbwell, who was also involved, actually, in that FA Cup final win for the Latics 13 years ago. More recently, he's been on the bench watching his ex-der side getting beaten 10-1 by Man City in the previous round.

50:28City this time around taking on Salford on Saturday afternoon. Slight Derby vibe to this given the ownership structure of Salford, Class of 92 and that. Not that it stood them in much stead last season when they got done 8-0. Unlikely perhaps to see an upset in that. Where might we see Cup Magic? Are there any fixtures that you thought, ooh, banana skin potentially here? How about Birmingham and Leeds? Grimsby Wolves. Okay, how about Grimsby Wolves? Well, how about it? I mean, that just screams banana skin, doesn't it, for Wolves, obviously already having a bad season. If the weather feels so bad, I feel like the last place you want to have a lot of wind and a lot of rain is Grimsby.

51:11I don't know if they think they're already down, but I think everyone else in City of Islam is all but kind of relegated, So the last thing they've got to play for this season is a bit of a cup run of some form, restore some kind of morale. And if you are going to have any chance of getting back into the relegation fight and then out of it, I think you need a win from somewhere and the cup feels like a great place to get that. OK, Grimsby Town, who have playoff ambitions in League 2. They've won five of the last six league encounters. And we recall how much trouble they gave Man United in the Carabao Cup earlier on.

51:44I mentioned Birmingham Leeds and my rationale was that we were doing a totally extra the other day about Leeds in which tangentially two Leeds fans observed how rubbish they are in the Cup and Birmingham are a strong team right now, no? Yeah, Birmingham obviously massively dominated League 1 last season started OK but then tailed off but have sort of come back into form in the last month or so so they're a good footballing team It's a 12 o 'clock kick-off, possibly on police advice, but it should be, yeah, I could see an upset there. Not many league places between them. I mean, the number of places it could be two teams in the same division.

52:27They're a point off the playoffs, Birmingham, having played a game more. And Leeds form on the road this season hasn't been great. So, well, we shall see. Burton Albion hosting West Ham. Might that also be a tricky one? West Ham are coming back into things. I was at the game this week against Manchester United, and they were really defensively strong for large parts of that. There's a real attacking cohesion to them as well, especially out wide. They've got good fullbacks, two really good wingers. I think that Jarrah Bowen and Crescento Somerville are starting wingers in a relegation scrapping team.

52:59They just felt they're way above that level. That's probably two international footballers come to the World Cup this summer. Again, their problem is conceding goals. Conceding late goals as well has really robbed them of some points. So they could already kind of be out the relegation zone had they have seen out games better. And as we spoke about Forrest earlier on, they feel like they're on a bit of a nosedive. West Ham feel like they're on the up. But this is also West Ham who have been a bit mental at times this season. So you never want to kind of write them off as ever being too confident that they're going to be just fine.

53:27And you think they would rotate quite heavily. Right. Unlike Wolves, who have nothing to play for, obviously West Ham are right. They struggled against QPR and the last one needed extra time. So, yeah, all things are possible. Very true. This is the first ever meeting, by the way, with the Brewers of Burn Albion, which means that they are the 150th different team that West Ham have faced in a competitive match. How about that? Any other fixtures that we should or that you will be keeping an eye on this weekend? No, it does lack that sort of standout game, I would say. Right, at least ahead of the games being played.

54:01Last time we saw all sorts of unexpected. That's the magic of the Famous Cup. It really is. It really is. Well, you know what? We'll just leave it there, wait for it to happen, and Sunday night we'll get together here in the Totally Studio and talk about what's come out, what's emerged from the fourth round. Today, though, many, many thanks to Daniel Story, who joined us earlier on, and Ruben Pinder, to you, Charlie Eccleshire, to you, Liam Tham, to you, Duncan Alexander, and producers Jake and Charlie in the booth, and you, listener, do hope you'll be joining us Sunday night, either on YouTube or hanging around until Monday for the podcast.

54:40And for now, from all of us here, it's goodbye.

55:10The Athletic FC