Frank sacked by Spurs - where does this leave the relegation battle?

0:00The Athletic FC

0:30but then farking it up with Farker. And at the Hill Dickinson confusion as the cherries went on top of toffees, but it wasn't on a Sunday. All that coming up in this Totally Football Show.

0:43It's Wednesday the 11th of February. Welcome to a brand new Totally Football Show with us today. JJ Bull. Hey, JJ. Hello. Also back with us, Liam Toomey. Hello, Liam. Pleasure to be back so soon. Excellent. Fresh back from paternity leave. And making his first appearance with us here in the studio, since returning from Afghan, Jay Harris. Yeah, I wish it was in slightly different circumstances, this return, though. Right. Although the circumstances to which you refer are ones that have prompted, I think, quite a bit of celebration in North London. I'm referring to Thomas Frank's departure from Tottenham Hotspur.

1:20It's going to be a busy morning for you. Yeah, a very busy morning. It's going to be a very busy day. As you said, Thomas Frank's been sat this morning. They lost 2-1 to Newcastle United last night. it's been trending in this direction for a long time I think when we look back at his time in charge the writing's been on the wall ever since that defeat to Chelsea where the atmosphere was toxic, I think they only had an XG of 0.05 Jed Spence and Mickey Van der Ven walked past him at full time, just felt like the disconnect between Frank, the fans the players was on show then, it's just got worse ever since.

1:50Alright well we'll talk about why now and who's next and all that kind of thing very shortly. JJ, you're also packing your bags aren't you? Because you're off on tour soon i'm doing a world tour yes of england yes this year so many gigs uh where are you starting well i've got a couple of festivals i'm playing in bristol and liverpool then i've got southampton in may i've got luton would you believe yes in may and then birmingham uh manchester which is almost sold out already apparently on the 29th so we do want to come to manchester is there a place where somebody can find all those dates yeah i think if you go any any of my socials i've probably remember to put a link on one of those there and they should be there.

2:26The first day is Bristol 28th of March, is that right? That is correct. All right, excellent. Where's that going to be? It's at a place called Strange Brew. It's part of a day festival they're doing there. Oh, lovely. It'll be good fun, yeah. Great. Maybe we'll have a chance to sample some of your Strange Brew later on in the show, but we're going to begin with Spurs. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network. Gordon.

3:13Yes, it's Gordon to Ramsey and Thomas Frank is cooked. What was it, Jay, about their sixth defeat in their last 11, leaving them just five points above the relegation zone with no wins in their last eight league games, their worst run since Wendell Ramos. What was it that prompted this decision this morning? I think the manner of their performances over the last few months have been really limp. And Thomas Frank mentioned it last night. They do have an extended injury crisis, but that's only really kicked in in the new year. As I mentioned a little bit earlier, you go back to November, December, performances have been bad.

3:47I feel like ever since they beat Leeds just before the October international break, It's just been on a downward slide. They've won two games at home out of 13 this season. And it's so crucial that you get the fans on board. And last night, there were chants about you getting sacked in the morning. There were chants about Mauricio Pochettino. And that's just so corrosive and so toxic to have that atmosphere. I think the final straw for a lot of the fan base was the Arsenal Coffee Cup incident. And unfortunately for Frank, I think so just because they'd already not warmed to him. and to just have that image of him, you know, the head coach of Tottenham, it was just such a bad contrast.

4:27And when you compare him to Posto Coglu before, for all of Ange's thoughts, he was a really good galvaniser. And there were so many times in press conferences where people would say, are you aiming for the top four? And he'd say things like, I'm not aiming for the top four, mate. I'm here to win trophies. And in Thomas Frank's press conference, he spoke about, you know, we're going to lose games this year. You know, we're in a little bit of a journey. And so I think straight away there was a sense of Posto Coglu was this great motivator. He was very charismatic. And Thomas Frank is also charismatic, but he just didn't get that across enough in press conferences.

4:59His messaging just wasn't quite there. Right. The timing's really, I can't call it good, but the timing is perhaps an advantage. With Spurs out of the FA Cup, they have two weeks before their next fixture, which is the North London derby. Exactly. You know, I wrote on The Athletic last night that if there was a time for him to go, it would be now, because the players are due to be off for the next, I think, four or five days. So you've got an opportunity for them to decompress and then you can get in an interim or a replacement and you can give them a little bit of time. Whereas if Frank had stayed and the players had still had four or five days off, I mean, that just would have been an awful look.

5:35Something would have had to have changed. But it's interesting that last night he said he was convinced he was still going to be in charge for the Arsenal game. But after what happened when they played the Emirates in, I think it was November, They lost 4-1. They're absolutely humiliated. I think all Spurs fans were thinking we're going to get absolutely taken apart. And the board have clearly realised that it just had to change. OK. One big question now is who's going to take over? I don't know if there's any concrete thoughts about that. But one other question I had was, given that they finished fourth in the league phase of the Champions League, there's clearly talent in this team.

6:09With the right coaching, where do you think they could be in this Premier League? Really good question. I think firstly, Newcastle have done well in the Champions League as well, and they're both struggling this season. There's something about juggling European football and Premier League football that for those teams they found particularly difficult. I think one issue with Spurs is that they've lost so much leadership over the last few years, and there's a definite void. And I think Christian Romero's actions over the last couple of weeks sort of speak to that. in the last couple of years they've lost Harry Kane, Song Hyung-min, Hugo Lloris, Eric Dier and they just need those figures who know how to bring a dressing room together.

6:47I think that's why they're really interested in Andy Robertson, Connor Gallagher is someone who's come in and straight away you can see he's got the right character but I think there are lots of players in that squad where it's just a little bit of a mismatch. There are some very good young talented players but they need to be set the right example by the senior pros and I think there have been too many times this season where that's not been the case. For example, sorry, I think in the last two games, Xabi Simons and Archie Gray have probably been their best players. Xabi Simons, 22, and he already looks like he's got a huge weight on his shoulders and Archie Gray is only 19.

7:18You need the people to stand up. Romero's done it a few times, but he's also accosted them too many times as well. Might have been useful if he'd been there for that opening. Girl from Malik. All right, but who do you think then? What's the word about what Tottenham's plan is going forward for the North London Derby and beyond? To be honest, I don't know what the plan is. I think we've consistently seen in the club's messaging that they wanted to give Thomas Frank as much time as possible. I think it was just before the West Ham United game in January where the CEO of Vinay Venkateshum sort of spoke about this being long-term change and it's something they needed to maybe suffer a little bit of pain with, but they've come to the conclusion that they were giving their faith in the wrong individual.

7:56There are obviously going to be a few names floating around like Ryan Mason, who's been the club's interim before and obviously used to play for the club. I think we sort of have to wait and see. Johnny Heitinger, who was Liverpool's assistant last year, he only recently joined Spurs, so maybe he'll stay. But at this exact moment, I think we're still trying to work out who of Thomas Frank's backroom staff is staying, who's going with him and sort of trying to pick up the pieces. But as you mentioned, that 10-day break before the Arsenal game means they don't have to immediately rush. They can sort of take the next day or two to sort of manage to fall out from this and then go from there.

8:27OK, all sorts of other names flying around, like Roberto De Zerbi, who's just resigned from his position at Marseille under similarly troubled circumstances. And of course, the one that was aired most vociferously at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium on Tuesday night, Maurizio Pochettino. Is there any point in Spurs fans dreaming of a post-World Cup return? I think so, because I've realised that Pochettino is sort of a spectre that looms large over the football club. He seems to come out at least once a year, once a season and make comments about, I want to come back to the Premier League, I want to come back to Spurs.

8:59he did it while Apostol Coglu was in charge he did it on the High Performance podcast earlier this week I'm sure he's not doing it when he was at Chelsea well there you go I'm sure he's not purposefully doing it to undermine the head coach in charge at that point but it just doesn't come across as that is the only way it comes across I guess the issue for Spurs with a romantic return for Pochettino is the issue of the World Cup because there's a short turnaround between the end of that World Cup and the new Premier League season starting so would you be giving him the right platform to succeed if you're saying, thanks for, you know, taking the US to the last 16 or the quarters or ever.

9:34You've got no time off. You've got to jump straight into a pre-season tour, which I think is going to be in Australia. Then you've got the Premier League season. To me, that is also, that's a huge risk that you start off on the bad, on the wrong foot anyways. All right. Jay, you've got a busy day ahead. Where can we keep a track of all the latest developments on this breaking story? Stay across The Athletic, Twitter, Instagram. There's going to be videos. There's going to be written analysis. And yeah, just stay tuned. All right. Possibly by the time you hear this, they might have somebody in place anyway.

10:05But Jay, in the meantime, many, many thanks for being with us today and have a super day. Thank you.

10:14Jay Harris. Extraordinary stuff there from Jay. Not least the fact that with all the incredibly damning stats about Thomas Frank's reign, the thing that actually did for him was using an Arsenal-branded coffee cup. It's all about image. That's so true. It feels a bit like way back when Ed Miliband ate the sandwich, just all wrong. Just imagine if it was a Tory-branded sandwich, it would have been just completely. Very, very true. Very, very true. All right, well, the numbers, as I say, abound. Thomas Frank averaging 1.12 points per game. As Tottenham Hotspur boss, that's the lowest rate of any Spurs manager in the Premier League you've got something I think about expected goals JJ I just looked up some numbers just now while Jay was talking and I'm still not sure that's real so their expected goals it says is 27.4, this is according to Opta their actual goals is 36 so it implies they've massively overperformed what they should have done which means they're actually worse than the table says, they should probably be worse off than they are, I need to double check expected points as I'm going to do right now.

11:21See if I can do it at the same time as I'm talking to you. Okay. Yeah, but this is the thing. When do you make up a tune while you're doing that? How many points do a Spurs go? I don't know. And what I found is that Spurs basically have made watching football very, very unfun for their fans. And I found like a lot of football this year has not been that great. Spurs particularly are one of those. And like Newcastle Spurs are two of the teams that are the least fun to watch, I would say, this season. So I watched the first half of this almost like a sort of, not a masochist endeavour but just to see how bad it could possibly be and Newcastle were fully at them, loads of energy Spurs not really at all like that they were struggling to calm it down even As a measure of how much Newcastle were all over Spurs on Tuesday night Jay posted that they had nine corners in the first half against Spurs which is more than any other team has managed all season and he posted that in the 31st minute so it was pretty dominant stuff.

12:16That ex-genius though, JJ. Yeah, well, I have to... That's right, X points. X points. I'm going to check the Opto one because the understat one isn't giving me the answers that I want. All right. What's the expected anger from those expected points? Oh, it's so high. I mean, I just don't know any Spurs fans. I think there's a couple of games ago, I can't remember which one it was, but it was like the apathy in the stadium. It was like people just didn't care even. You could feel... I remember Gary Neville talking about it, how it felt eerie and how it was... People just didn't really care that they were losing.

12:44That was the soccer raid in a Verticom. I think. Is that the one? Yeah, which saw that remarkable second half turnaround. And that's the kind of confusing thing. There does seem to be every now and then a flash of a side in there. But we should talk a little bit about Newcastle, who, as JJ was mentioned, came in with problems of their own. Three straight defeats. And I think they'd only won two on the road all season. So how happy should they be by what they showed on Tuesday night? Yeah, it's a big win despite Tottenham's circumstances, I think. but it also speaks to the fundamental difference between the two clubs at the moment and JJ was saying that they've been two of the more miserable watches I think but the one thing you can rely on Newcastle to bring is energy in every single game that's what their identity is built on even if it's not necessarily properly directed and they make mistakes and leave themselves open It's like a positive and a negative right because when they get it right they're just impossible to play against you're like oh god stop it's relentless but if it doesn't work, if you can't get revved up to that same 100 % power bar level each time, it means that it doesn't really work and then you lose a lot of the creativity and the magic and the guile and the improvisation that makes a lot of football games fun to watch, I would say.

14:01So if you're just relying constantly on people running at you, go, go, go, smash, smash, smash, it takes away some of the more gentle artistic moments that I would like to see. Ronaldinho wouldn't work in that team. No. Yeah. And also you see it with Newcastle in the fact that they dropped... It would. Sorry. Joel Linton would do his running for him, I think. Yeah. I think he'd be happy to do that. But you see it with Newcastle in the last 20, 30 minutes of games sometimes when the energy dips a little bit. They haven't necessarily got much else to fall back on. So I think there is a good stat about them.

14:32They're one of three clubs that have dropped more points from winning positions than Chelsea, who we'll talk about a little bit later. The other one would be West Ham. West Ham and Bournemouth are the other two teams. Right. where Newcastle will be visiting Villa Saturday tea time in the FA Cup. Spurs not in the FA Cup, having been beaten by Villa in the third round. So they've got two weeks off before the Arsenal game, which could mark the earliest St. Totteringham day in Premier League history, JJ, because Arsenal's two games before that in the league will be against Brentford and Wolves. And if they win those two and then beat Spurs, they'll be 36 points ahead with 33 points to play for.

15:11Woof. All right. on that bombshell. We'll take a quick break and then we'll come back in with what happened across town at the London Stadium on Tuesday night between West Ham and Man United.

15:42What else happened on Tuesday then in the first part of Matchday 26? Well, League's two newest managers both had their win streaks interrupted. Man United, who needed a last gasp, a Shesko equaliser to draw 1-1 at West Ham. Chelsea, who drew 2-2 at home to Leeds after being two goals up and cruising. Liam will be telling us about that one very, very shortly. Spurs, as we heard, losing 2-1 at home to Newcastle. and then Bournemouth came from a goal down to beat Everton 2-1 with teenage sensation Ryan on the score sheet once again. Just circling back to the Man United draw with West Ham, though, we're joined by Karl Anker, who was there at the London Stadium, Karl.

16:23Hi, James. Hello. Hello. That was a very strange game on Tuesday. It was quite a muted hello. Are you still digesting what happened on Tuesday night? It was very stodgy. Simon Stone from the BBC asked Michael Carrick about the performance and used the word stodgy to which Carrick went eh good word Nuno has managed several low in entertainment but positive for him performances against Manchester United in his time not just for West Ham but also at Nottingham Forest and previously to Wolverhampton Wanderers so he's almost like a such a thing as a bogey manager shall we say a bogey manager for a football team.

17:03Yeah, I think so. Is it to do with low blocks, Carl, is it? I think so. So West Ham, they spent well, or well enough in the January transfer window. They've now got a striker, which means Somerville and Bowen can play more as traditional nippy wingers. And it's a very, very compact 4-5-1. Sit in deep, block off all areas, no joy through the middle. And then if they do win the ball, which they can do, because they can be quite physical at times, it's a quick ball out to Somerville, who's a pretty good 1v1 threat. So United can't do their tricky one-two passes through the middle. And obviously, because they spent the last 14 months playing with wingbacks, they didn't have wingers who can really stretch a play out wide.

17:42So for the better part of an hour, they just really had no idea of how to progress the ball. All right, well, let's talk about the opening goal for West Ham because that followed pretty much the pattern you were just talking about. A ball upfield, Gerard Bowen winning that at Luke Shaw's expense and then Thomas Sutek finishing it. A nice breakaway goal. Yes, a good breakaway goal. A really nice long pass from El-Hajid Majouf, a football player who I am a fan of. I think he's one of the better players in the bottom half. I think he had a very, very good AFCON with Senegal as well. He's one of those players that I'm sure more than one top six club is going.

18:17Could we get him on a quote-unquote cheaper deal in case West Ham go down before he ends up costing 70, 80 million in a bit? Good long crossing, good athletic ability. Tall for a full-back? I'm not sure if that makes sense. a quality player there. Tchuczek was described as Mr. Helicopter by the stadium announcer at West Ham after his goal because of his celebration. What did he do for his celebration? He saw just twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom. Okay. Yeah, a real sickener of a goal for a Man United team that just really struggled to get a second gear for more than an hour. But United played poorly because West Ham made it so.

18:56Okay. And it was an impressive performance from a West Ham team. who are very much on the upward tick at the moment, JJ. Yeah, I think what they've done is exactly what Carl says, is they've recruited really cleverly and mostly focused on bringing in pace so they can hit those counterattacks. It seemed like Nottingham Forest, you had Alanga and Hudson-Odoi would be pinging in behind so you can make use of a striker. And then Tati Castellanos, yeah, that's it. Up top, he's doing a lot more than what they had before. So they've got that threat now. Somerville as well. Somerville, yeah, he's been really good.

19:28He's a great player, exactly. Carl says it's repeating Carl but I think they knew what Man United have been doing recently and so they just adjusted to take care of that and it's as much as it's a low block it's also as soon as the ball got near the middle they would be snapped onto them like really tight so there was no real option then they'd lock off half the pitch there's times when you had like four West Ham players in the vertical space blocking the other half of the pitch so you couldn't really take the risky passes that you want to because if you do take the risky pass the fast lads are going to go and instantly ping up up the way.

20:00And that's probably how you beat them. And there's some sort of inevitability. There's something about this Man United now, like the mindset has definitely changed. There's a thing in them because as West Ham defended really well for most of the game, inevitably they sort of fell backward, like further and further from the 18-yard box to their own six-yard box. And that's when United get in. And I really liked how Carrick did the old school Man United thing of just put on more forwards. You can play right back now. That's fine. Because that works. and you get the ball in the area I saw this clip where Ferguson's talking to Gary Neville and he says the reason they would always do it they'd always put another striker on and risk losing 2 or 3-0 was that if you get that late equaliser or a late winner the difference in the dressing room afterwards the elation and the galvanisation that that gives you it takes you forward through the season so now they've got that goal as inevitability starts building where Man United are chasing a game there's this feeling they might actually be able to get back into it now.

20:57I'm not sure how much this will not back that sense of elation under the new manager but equally how much it'll mean for West Ham who were dreaming of pulling level with Forrest ahead of Wednesday's games with a win. Instead you get the last gasp heartbreaker from Cesco, Benjamin Cesco with the second 90 plus crucial goal that he scored in a couple of weeks because he did it against Fulham. He did, he did and the finish is exquisite. to have the quickness of mind to get across to the near post and then also the deftness of touch he doesn't wrap his body around it to generate power he sort of recognises the pace of the ball already if I can get a nudge on I can get this top corner it's like he lets the ball hit his foot rather than he hits the ball yes, yes one of my frustrations watching Seshko this season is he can be a bit too nice there is he's got almost so many finishes in his locker sometimes you can see him take an additional second trying to go okay which one do I want to do here where I'm sort of screaming at him in that voice you often do as you get closer and closer to the middle age you're like just put your foot through it stop being subtle whereas Cesco's joy is he is capable of these really really subtle touches these really subtle finishes his goal against Fulham was a sort of touch turn spin manoeuvre he's done in multiple matches I said this on Talk of the Devil so he did it against Newcastle right towards the end of the year he's done it against Burnley he tried it once against Nottingham Forest and he did it again prior to the goal against West Ham and this is something he keeps trying to do which is I'm going to spin and get the shot off and so the shot against West Ham he's getting now the motion and the sort of Premier League pace on it now and now it's a case of get it on target more really really start challenging the keeper more so a talent there someone who can definitely to my man finish the season with double figure goals and I think he's now it's a pronounced gap for Man United before their next game against Everton on 23rd.

22:55I would not be surprised if he's in the starting line-up against Everton. Right, that would be his first start under Michael Carrick, although he has notched up six goals in seven matches since Ruben Amirim departed from Carrington. So Everton coming up, which is a concern, is it, given that we've been talking about will Carrick's winning run survive contact with a low-block team? And look what happened. It didn't. So, yeah, Everton, your match might employ similar tactics. Are they in a position to do that? It's a David Moyes team. If anyone's really good at coaching a 4-5-1, it's going to be David Moyes and sort of stodge up the middle and slow things down.

23:32And I think Everton have recruited quite smartly in the January transfer window to replace the Jack Grealish as well. I think Tyric George, there's a player there, perhaps not a top six player that Chelsea need right now, but there's certainly someone who can definitely offer a transitional threat. So the good thing for Carrick and his coaching staff, for Steve Holland, for Jonathan Woodgate, for Johnny Evans, for his analysts as well, is they're staying in Manchester over this break and I'm sure they'll make some tactical alterations and go, right, Nuno probably figured it out. We need to find something new and something more experimental when we return.

24:07And I wouldn't be surprised if one of those things is Cesc got top and there may be two or three adjustments with the fullbacks or how the fullbacks try and play as well. Because, yeah, this Everton team are, sensible in a way that very few teams in the Premier League seem to be right now. Yeah, although it didn't work out for them on Tuesday night against Bournemouth. Thank you so much, Carl. Just a quick word, JJ, on the Hammers, who despite that late heartbreak of Cesco's equaliser have picked up 10 points from their last 15 available. They do move to two points from safety and Noddingham Forest, at least until Forest play on Wednesday night.

24:45Are they staying up? I don't know I think they've got momentum now and I think other teams around them do not but the problem with always in football is that each game changes the narrative of it and so I don't I think they've probably got enough in them they've got enough good players that they shouldn't go down so they should be alright with it but the ones I thought would be closest to them like Leeds I think would be closer to them but they're not and they should actually be higher up the table according to expected points and all that sort of nonsense calling this answer stodgy Yeah, I'm going to just...

25:16I feel West Ham have momentum, but I think they've squandered their most winnable run of fixtures. In particular, that the feet to walls is going to be one that is already one that West Ham fans will go, no, you shouldn't be doing that. I'm inclined to think they're staying up for purely narrative reasons, because the bottom five of the Premier League has been shaping up in perfectly for a Nuno revenge arc against Nottingham Forest or Tottenham. Choose your own adventure, Nuno, in terms of which former club you relegate. But the reason why those clubs are down there is they don't pick up points at a very good rate.

25:58So West Ham, I actually thought their reaction to that late goal was really encouraging because they were absolutely devastated and so surprised. They obviously felt they had the game completely under control. and that suggests to me just a level of buy-in to the plan and what Nuno's doing and the identity that they've built that you just don't really see from any teams down the bottom there. So I think there are enough games for them to get out of this. There's a clarity to Nuno teams that doesn't really exist with some other teams at the bottom. I couldn't, I'd really struggle to tell you what Robert Edwards is trying to do with Wolves.

26:37Nottingham Forest are trying to play like a Sean Dyche team but with limited success. Spurs are big shrug, what was Thomas Frank trying to do? Whereas West Ham, they're trying to play like a Nuno team which is stodgy up, hit you really hard on the counter. The games aren't going to be high in quality. They're going to be towards the end of the match of the day but if you're not paying attention, you're going to get rocked. And maybe, maybe, I don't know. It'll be close but I think they've just left too many points on the table a little bit too early on in the season. All right, two points to gap for now.

27:07Forest though in action on Wednesday night and they are at home to Wolves. So, hmm. Anyway, we'll be talking about the other two matches from Tuesday Night's Action next.

27:21You're listening to The Totally Football Show with James Richardson. Now we do four times a week. Keep up to date with us on Insta and enjoy us in glorious Technicolor on YouTube at The Totally Show. Karl Anker, and you can hear more from Karl in the Talk of the Devils podcast about Man United. and that will be out on Wednesday afternoon. So much happening Tuesday night in the Premier League. Chelsea's game with Leeds had plenty going on in it. Alien. Yeah, it was actually a really fun game to watch. I think it was some of the best football for about 60 minutes that Chelsea have played all season.

28:00Was that because of the Pedro and Parma double act getting back underway? Yeah, I think they had a really great balance of the positional structure that was clearly in place under Maresca and which Rosseña is trying to continue and build upon. But there was also a freedom in the final third that just wasn't there under Maresca. And I think you can almost measure the health of Chelsea's attack and the enjoyment of their attackers by the number of first-time flicks around the corner that were going on, particularly from Cole Palmer, but also João Pedro, Esteval. Maybe not quite as involved in the first half, but kind of had his moments.

28:41But Palmer in particular just looks almost back to himself. I know he's scored three penalties in the last two games, and that kind of pads the stats slightly in terms of goals. He also didn't score a goal from open play, which I would have put a very different perspective on Tuesday's performance. But he did put the ball through for the opening goal in kind of classic partnership with Pedro fashion, for Jao Pedro to open the scoring. And then Pedro, who gets pushed over from behind for the second game in a row. It's my favourite one of his skills that he does, where a defender just pushes him over in the box for no reason.

29:14It drives me wild. He must have just like an irresistible back to centre-back. But he knows it's coming. He's not going down like that. That's not shoving him to the ground, obviously. He's so strong and massive. But it is just a very obvious two-hand push. I know. Two games in a row that you're just not going to get away with. If you just had someone play five-a-side, there's no way you'd be giving them a free kick. There's no way. I think that rule should apply to a lot of these things. The Premier League should be self-refereeing in those situations. If you applied in five-a-side, would the crowd agree with you or not?

29:43That's what you should do, I think. All right. You play five-a-side in front of a crowd. Oh, absolutely. It shows JJ draws a crowd for pretty much everything. he does JJ's now a fun fixture on a lot of people's top five year ending Spotify reviews JJ somehow yeah that's happened what's your most popular track by the way on Spotify I think it's still probably Chris Wood but the Adriano 99 short power song seems to do very well especially at live gigs people sing that one night after night hour after hour I need his 99 short power

30:22Carl was just eulogising over your Bird Camp. If Bird Camp can do it, so can you. Yeah, I love that. It's really nice. If you're unaware, listen, JJ improvises songs about football and footballers and enjoys a large degree of success doing it. When you say large, I think... Yeah, you do. I think I will perform my expected songs in a certain way. Some of them are good. I was improvising them all, but now I'm trying to make them actually good. And so I've accidentally, like, not hamstrung myself, but I'm now overthinking it, which is a silly thing to do because it was working. We're just getting them out.

30:57It's difficult. And there's some sort of parallel we can draw with some manager, I think, somehow here. Hopefully I've given you a good segue to the next bit. Well, was Liam Rossignor thinking too much about getting a good record? Continuing his good record, I guess that might be one link. But Chelsea were on track to do that. And had I said to you about, what, 65 minutes in that they weren't going to take three points from this game, 2-0 up and absolutely cruising, what would you have thought, Liam? Yeah, I mean, well, I wouldn't have been totally shocked just because this has been part of Chelsea's identity all season.

31:33They've now dropped 17 points from winning positions in the Premier League. So they do switch off, as Rosseña said afterwards. They don't necessarily manage those positions very well. And the turning point was really having got an inexplicable penalty in terms of mistake from the defensive team. They gave one back with Moises Caicedo committing just a really silly foul. I mean, this is part of who Caicedo is. He backs himself to win the ball in situations where other players just wouldn't even try and go for it. And most of the time he ends up on the right side of that. or the worst he does is give away a foul in a non-dangerous position.

32:16But here, I don't think any other Chelsea player tries to make that tackle in the penalty area. And you could, even watching on the TV, you could feel the atmosphere change and the demeanour of Chelsea's performance change after that goal. So did that get into their heads? And is that why that extraordinary equaliser came about? Yeah, I think so. I think you saw from the restart from the Leeds penalty that Chelsea stepped off. They'd been pressing really aggressively for the whole game, winning the ball back against Leeds in good areas. And they dropped off. And that allowed Leeds the time and space to start putting testing balls into their penalty area and really examining a centre-back pairing that we haven't seen much this season, which was Trevor Chalabar, who starts almost every game, but also Joshua Champong, who's very talented, but is still 19, has not played much football recently, doesn't necessarily have the clearest understanding with Rob Sanchez in goal.

33:18And Leeds' game plan was just to create a bit of uncertainty. Right. How would you describe their equaliser? Absolutely farcical. It was one of the worst goals that I've seen Chelsea concede in quite a long time. It's like a 90s VHS highlight, wasn't it? Yeah, or like a kind of FIFA glitch that would prompt a rage quit, you know, just where a defender just completely stops. Like you're pressing the clear button and they just won't clear. And then... It's rigged. Yeah, the goalkeeper just moves into an inexplicable position as well. It was just complete cross wires between Rob Sanchez and Joshua Champoll.

33:53There was no clear plan for what Chelsea could do. And the ball gets rolled over to Nauru Okafor. And it was... From that point on, you felt that Chelsea had a big mental adjustment to make to try and win the game again. And yet... And yet they could so very well have done that. Yeah, and I think that was testament to how well they were actually playing through Leeds all game long. There was a lot more incision in their possession than I think Chelsea fans have seen under Maresca. And the move which creates the chance for Palmer is fantastic. It's a lovely little give and go of a flick from Malo Gusto, a great low cross.

34:34Palmer times his run perfectly. The cross takes out Carl Darlow. It's all there for him. But the cross is maybe a little bit too fast, a little bit too high. And in that split second, Palmer doesn't angle his foot quite right. I mean, it was quite funny that everyone in the stadium had the same face, which was Cole Palmer's face, which is just the maximum extension of your jaw. Just the silent scream, but of surprise as much as anguish. No one could believe that he of all players would miss that chance. Well, they stay fifth, but Liverpool can reduce the gap and Brentford can too. Brentford, who are up against Arsenal, though, at home on Thursday when those matches come round.

35:20Liverpool, who are away at Sunderland, though, Wednesday night, which would be a tough one. That's super. Anything else we should know about the Chelsea-Leeds game, Liam? I just think it was a big missed opportunity for Chelsea, especially when you then flick over to the Manchester United game and they were having so much trouble against West Ham. Even with that late equaliser, Chelsea could have leapfrogged them and built on that growing sense of momentum under Resenia. I still feel like there's a good feeling around the club at the moment, around the squad, but it is a setback. Not for Leeds, though, who've now only had two defeats in the last 13 matches, scored here with their only two shots on target, and came away with a point from informed Chelsea without Dominic Calvert-Lewin in their line-up, because he was not well.

36:05They are an impressively unpleasant team to play, I think. I was particularly impressed with just how seemingly random Jadon Bogle's role is. He starts at right back, but he appears everywhere and just causes problems. He seemed to be playing up front half the time for Leeds when they had the ball. And yeah, even at 2-0, they never gave up. They never stopped pressing Chelsea. They never stopped making them uncomfortable, believing they would maybe get a mistake. And they did. They did. Up the table, they marched. Very good. The one other game from Tuesday's action was Everton against Bournemouth, which saw Everton take the lead through a penalty, a very nicely taken penalty from Ndiaye.

36:51But then Bournemouth came steaming back in the second half. Ryan, who you're a big fan of, Liam, with his second goal in two matches. And then it was Amin Adley who made it 2-1 before Everton went down to 10 men after Jacob Bryan was shown a red fall pretty clear denying of goal-scoring opportunity on Adley. Yeah, yeah. There can't really be any complaints on that one. But I think it was really interesting to see how good Ryan looked again. I've been really, really impressed with him since he's arrived in the Premier League, particularly how physically and athletically ready he looks to impact these games at 19.

37:32and I think obviously it's a small sample size, lots of players have started well and then had a bit more trouble but if he is as good as he's looked so far, I think there could be some big Premier League clubs that maybe regret not getting on that particular train earlier. He's the next Semenyo, says Liam Toomey. Well, six foot two winger who can maybe play in the future across the front line. You can see why they targeted him and the way he scored that header it looked like a natural skill. He's only the third teenager to register a goal or assist in each of his first three Premier League appearances.

38:11The other two being... Go on, JJ, I'll be amazed if you get these two. Say it again. Teenagers. Two teenagers prior to Ryan had registered either a goal or an assist in each of their first three Premier League appearances. Michael Owen? Is not correct. I'm so bad at this. Wayne Rooney? Is also not correct. Give me my next one. God all day One of them came from Ligue 1 From the south end of Ligue 1 And scored an amazing goal Against Liverpool on his debut And after an initially bright start Tailed off very very rapidly I'm talking about Anthony Martial Of course The other one Has played for any number of clubs All of which he supported as a lad And is currently managing in the country.

39:02It is Robbie Keane. It is Robbie Keane. Very good. There you go. Oh, if you enjoyed Cole Palmer's miss, what did you make of Tiano Barry's? I felt this was even more egregious, actually. Yeah, he's a bit further out. But there's less pace on the ball as well. Yeah, the only thing I could think of looking at the replay is he maybe gets a slight nudge from Evan Nilsson as he's on one leg, but most Premier League players I don't think would be affected by that enough to miss as badly as he did. There you go. Costly miss for Everton, who go down yet again at the Hill Dickinson. We'll find out what that all means in terms of the standings when the rest of round 26 is played.

39:44But before we leave you today, let's quickly catch up on events in one or two other Premier League adjacent leagues or divisions. First of all, JJ, how about that Scottish title race? Anything interesting happening there? Really fun. And Hearts keep winning games. They keep keeping up the, I don't know, they're setting the pace at the top of the table. They've got, I think it's six points ahead now. It is, yeah, of Rangers. So Tuesday night, they had the Hearts-Hibs Derby. Does that have a special name? Well, the Edinburgh Derby. Okay, that'll do. Maybe I'm letting my country die by not knowing what the other bit is.

40:21But yeah, so a game, I didn't manage to see this, it was on Premiere, but I've watched the highlights and read about it. and I've heard that it was not fantastic quality. I then looked at the numbers and the numbers of 0.6 versus 0.38. XG suggests that that is exactly the way to review the game. Neither team really passing the ball much. There's around about 300 passes each. For context, Manny United West Ham, Manny United has 660 passes. So I think it's a bit of an end-to-end sort of stodgy affair, which makes sense because Derek McInnes' teams, he's the manager of Hearts, tend to be very hard to beat.

40:54And he has good characters and you rely on kind of individual talent in the final third and that's how they get goals. They find a way to win Derek McInnes' teams, which is exactly what they did. They scored in the 88th minute. Thomas Magnussen, an Icelandic midfielder, playing for Hearts, taps it in from inside the six-yard box and you can see the elation, the pressure, kind of lifted in the stadium. McInnes runs along the touchline, kind of trying to do high-fives with everyone there. He's pointing at a ball boy. He's like, yes! Really exciting. It's funny because in Scotland, I think I've got loads of friends who support different clubs in Scotland as you'd imagine now I would like Hearts to do it because I'd like to break the duopoly I think it would be fantastic lots of Aberdeen fans do not want that for some reason they don't want Hearts to win it because they were the last lot who won it before well it's like if someone's going to do it I want my team to do it not Hearts and there's all other sort of politics is the wrong word but like you don't want Hearts to do it especially you know but then in Edinburgh obviously you're going to the high B's are not going to want Hearts to do it and then in Glasgow I think a lot of fans who I know who are Rangers or Celtic fans, I mean, they are around the country, but I think some of them want Hearts to do it because they want to break it up.

42:03They're getting bored, especially Celtic fans. And then I think most of the rest of the country would be like, yes, come on. But it's weird because you can't, I thought it would be everyone united, like, come on Hearts, I want this to happen. Like with Leicester. Yeah, and I don't know if it is. It depends who you ask in different places. It's interesting. Well, what I think has proved, especially heartwarming about their title run is that they went off to this brilliant start and then got pegged back and it felt more, I think more than once in the course of the season that the bubble had burst, that they turned back into a pumpkin or whatever and the big boys had kind of re-established their superiors.

42:39People were predicting they would do over the course of a season but six points the gap between Hearts and Rangers and fully nine points from Celtic who are third. Celtic though do have two games in hand on the Edinburgh side and Rangers have a game in hand as well. Yeah, and Celtic have been a bit more sensible recently with Martin O 'Neill coming in. I mean, you saw what happened with Wilfred Nonsi. That is one of the most bizarre things I've seen in Scottish football for a long time. It was quite funny. I feel bad for him having been chucked out. He was there for about 27 or 37 days, something.

43:09It was some crazy low number. Less time than the interim manager had been in charge before him. Something like that. And there's something that I really like about Martin O 'Neill from like, it feels retro having Martin O 'Neill back, having watched Celtic in the 90s and the 2000s and everything. And just doing a really good job. You don't need to have a system and XGE to be able to do it. You can just be a really good manager, a good coach, players in the right places, drive them, teach them that they're Celtic players and they should be beating them and suddenly they look a lot better. And like underlying numbers, you can look at them at the end of a season.

43:41They tend to correlate. And Celtic have been massively underperforming. Hearts have been scoring far more than they should have been, but they seem to be built on a really strong defence, which ties back into what McInnes does. They're hard to break down. and that's why they've been so good and being able to get things out of games. So it's genuinely really exciting. Rangers seem to be playing much better under Danny Roll now and it's just, it's really fun. It's been one of the most fun leagues to watch for me. I've been loving watching the Scottish Premiership this season. Right, maybe not follow the whole game but from afar, check the results.

44:13Well, I couldn't, I was having to watch. No, no, absolutely. I was told to watch the rest of them. By the way, Lim, you were mentioning Leicester or we both were in fact. This is the 10-year anniversary of them doing a Leicester. How did they mark it? How did they mark it? So last week they got deducted six points, which has put them in the championship relegation zone. Was that financial irregularities? Yeah. I mean, there have been quite a few of those in recent years at Leicester, particularly in their seasons in the EFL. Let's say they've pushed the boundaries and then some. Yeah. Then on Tuesday night, while all that Premier League and Edinburgh Derby stuff was going on.

44:52They took on Southampton, and much better news, they went 3-0 up. How did that one finish, though, Liam? No need to track it from there, I'm sure. 4-3. 4-3 loss. Yikes. Remarkable. All right, well, as I say, Leicester down in 21st place now. They are level on points with Blackburn Rovers, and what looks like a, well, quite illustrious relegation race. You've got Portsmouth down there as well. West Brom not far off the bottom four. but yes, all sorts of drama in store in the championship. Watford, by the way, who are currently in 12th spot in the second tier, have a brand new manager. He is the 23rd new Hornets manager in the 13 and a half years that the Pottsos have been in charge.

45:36Do you know who it is, Jojo? It's me. I am the next Watford manager. That's next week. Yeah, exactly. It's Ed Still. Ed Still. The brother of Will Still. Yes. Who still has the will. Will still have the will, dropping down the level. Yeah, I don't know anything about Ed Still, so I can't tell you anything. What's that we're hearing in the background? It's Will Still Have the Will, one of your many really popular tracks. That's a little less popular, actually. Is it? It's shocking. I mean, it's not popular at all, I would say. Oh. But I am working on it. Okay, that was almost a commission from your social media, wasn't it?

46:18Yeah, I take ideas from people and steal them. And the nice thing, Liam, I'm not sure if you've ever watched this, is you can watch JJ's brain working in real time as he tries to construct the song around. It's a horrible place to be. Will still have the will. Are you going to do one about... The next Watford manager? No, Ed Still. Is your Ed still in the game? I already have a song. Do you? I am the Watford manager. I've got it. I've just been working on it for ages One of the ones I've been overthinking For a while Because it's just to be simple Well also the lyrics keep changing Week by week I imagine Well that's the thing If I don't get them out in time And I need to have a bit of a life as well Outside of constantly working And then do my own work at home But it turns out Ed Still I don't know the first thing about him Other than that he knows Will Still He's his brother Yeah Knows him quite well I think So hopefully I hope it doesn't involve Listing the Watford managers It does not Because that would be quite an undertaking there's you know your first two verses well i wanted to do a sort of spartacus thing you know like no i am the watford manager right this week but i mean what amount of managers they've gone through because i went through the wikipedia literally 23 yeah so many yeah and you look at all the different managers oh i remember him but it was only like last month you know i've always i've always had a soft spot for watford in that sense because they have made the chelsea beat feel like a beacon of stability one of the few clubs capable of doing that i always thought it's so interesting with that as well because like miles jacobson um sport interactive the guy makes football manager yes he's a massive watford fan like huge so they've always got sponsors with them so i think he's often at the games and would i'd imagine i'm making this up i can't remember i'm sure he talks to them at some sort of level where they'd be able to take some of his you know the network he has surely he'd be able to impart some sort of wisdom as in maybe keep a manager longer than four months right that sort of thing might work the potso's ownership kind of CV has always seen them hiring and firing at a fair old rate although they have calmed down a little bit with Udinese not that much but a little bit well we'll see how Ed still gets on at Vicarage Road right now though that's it for this Totally Football Show many thanks to Carl Anker and Jay Harris who were with us earlier on to JJ and Liam to Jake and Charlie in the booth and you listener we'll be back Thursday morning actually with all the Wednesday action and a big look forward to the fourth round of the Cup for now though from all of us here it's goodbye you've been listening to the totally football show part of the athletic fc podcast network for other great podcasts just like this one including the athletic fc and our dedicated club podcasts search for the athletic in all the usual places we're also at the totally show on insta and at the totally show on youtube the totally football show is an athletic media company production

49:04The Athletic FC.