Ireland’s epic comeback, Scotland’s Denmark decider + can Brazil win the World Cup?

0:00The Athletic FC

0:30and things in this Totally Football Show.

0:43Monday 17th of November, 206 sleeps till the big one. We've got Daniel Storey with us today on the Totally Football Show. Hi, Daniel. Good morning, James. Good morning to you. Tom Williams also here. Hey, Tom. Hey, James. Good morning. Good morning. and good morning or bon dia to Nathalie Giedra of Sky Sports. Bon dia. Hi. I've got to stop using my faux Brazilian accent for you, Nathalie, because you're very soon going to become a Briton. In two days' time. What? Yes. Have you done a lot of revision? Because that's citizen test. Oh, I took the citizen test. Oh, you did that? Yes, yes, I did. Oh, so now you've just got the ceremony.

1:22Yes, it's just a ceremony. Oh, you've got your sword ready in the cape? Yes, something like that. Yes, yes, yes, yes. They have us sorted. The citizenship equivalent of the final stage of the Tour de France. The race has been run. Now, Nathalie is just sipping champagne and waving at passers-by. That sounds fun. It does, doesn't it? I'm trying to think of a British equivalent to the last stage of the... Tour de France? I guess last day of the Premier League season, when the title has already been secured and the title winners are just there for the party. Maybe like an England game away to Albania when they've already blown up their qualifying group in just remarkable, remarkable fashion.

2:01England doing something that nobody had ever done before, winning all of their qualifying games without ever conceding a goal. I say nobody had ever done that, not in the era of proper qualifying things. Was it Yugoslavia who did it back in the 50s or 60s when there were only four teams? So, I mean, let's be serious here. Anyway, England very much. Back in Brazil, are they looking at England going... Yes. Yes. Yes, they are very much. Are they? Yes. No, no, really. I don't think many Brazilians would be that surprised if Brazil lost to England in the World Cup. Yeah, but we'll get to that. Okay.

2:38You spent the week with Carlo Ancelotti's Sela Sour, didn't you? Yes, I did. The whole week. The whole week. Yes, they have a lot of media activities traditionally. So, you know, you have a lot of press conferences and access to training. So, yeah, it was fun. It was really nice. Are you going to be a dual citizen? Yes, I am. Yes. But to answer your question about the test, the test was actually fun. Oh, yeah? Yes, yes, because you have to study a lot about, you know, English culture and history. So, yeah, it wasn't as bad as I thought. But you do have to test. You do have to study. What was the most surprising thing you learned in your studies about being a British citizen?

3:17Yeah, something that I, God, honestly, I already forgot. But I thought it was very interesting at the time. Like the roses that you, from each country, there was a question on. From the counties? Yeah, from the, yes. Like which rose or which flower represents a certain country? Yorkshire and that. I mean, Daniel's all over there, aren't you, Daniel? Yeah, Red Roses of Lancashire, White Roses of Yorkshire. Oh, yes. See this, I had to study about this. You studied it so well. Yeah, exactly. A lot of history. That was the interesting part, yeah. Right. No one from the home office is listening, just in case Natalie's just lost a couple of points.

4:00It doesn't stick. But to be fair, The War of the Roses, I did remember. Right. I mean, there's a film there as well, isn't there? Yeah. Tom, Nathalie's going to tell us about Brazil. Maybe you're going to opine about France a bit because you went to Paris to see them appropriately. Yes, so I was in Paris last week for France versus Ukraine, which was France's penultimate qualifier, and they won 4-0 and secured their place at the tournament. And then last night they were playing away to Azerbaijan, and Didier Deschamps shook his team up a little bit, and they still won 3-1. So they are looking pretty solid.

4:34but some concerns about lack of strength in depth in defensive areas because the first choice back four and the goalkeeper are pretty much nailed on but very quickly once you get past that set of players, the level of quality dries up quite quickly. So that's what the French are worried about. But yes, at the other end of the pitch they are looking absolutely terrifying. All right. And Daniel, you went to Luton's goalless draw with Rotherham and also I imagine caught up with England's visit to Tirana and Albania. Yeah, I did. It was one of the worst football games I've ever seen. Which one? But I was a Luton-Rotherham.

5:16Oh, yeah. But I was there because Jack Wilshere is Luton's manager and I spoke to him after the game, doing a piece on him this week. I was astonished to learn that Jack Wilshere is younger than Virgil van Dijk, which sort of blew my mind a little bit while I was watching the game. at the weekend. But yeah, good luck to him. He's kind of, well, he says he's not fallen back in love with football, but he's rediscovered how much he had fallen out of love with football before with the kind of pain of injuries and et cetera, et cetera. So yes, it was a dreadful match and we'll move on from that. Okay.

5:51Have you ever fallen out of love with football, Daniel? Maybe at halftime at Ken Halls' Road, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, just the standard kind of for the half an hour after painful, horrible exits. I mean, it's not falling out of love. It's sort of pretending that you don't care and in doing so showing that you care far too much. I hear you. I hear you. Well, let's get a quick check on what's happened in World Cup qualifying since our last podcast. Croatia, Portugal and Norway have all put their places at the World Cup. Croatia with a victory over the Faroe Islands. Portugal beating Armenia 9-1 with hat-tricks for Bruno Fernandes, Jean Neves.

6:30at Norway slamming Italy at San Siro four goals to one Norway making it eight wins out of eight in qualifying and a goal difference of plus 32 wow elsewhere all but there are the Netherlands Switzerland and Spain but for other teams the next two nights are going to be decisive on Monday tonight as we record Germany who've never failed to qualify for a World Cup face a winner-takes-all showdown with Slovakia for their qualifying space for this one That's Slovakia, who beat Germany 2-0 in their group opener. Tuesday, it's going to be crunch time for Scotland and Wales. Scotland face Denmark at Hampton Park, win, and they'll be at the World Cup for the first time since 1998.

7:14Wales will be up against North Macedonia in Cardiff that same evening. Assuming the Belgium don't lose to Liechtenstein in that group, Wales will need a victory to finish second. But you know what? They're in a playoff anyway because Nations League. way to give jeopardy true but the advantage yes yes yes is significant it is okay meanwhile definitely in the playoffs on the right side of that draw are the Republic of Ireland the Republic who'd taken one point from their first three games and looked about as out of it as possible have come alive in the past seven days they beat Portugal 2-0 and then on Sunday they went to Budapest and came from behind against Hungary to snatch a 3-2 victory with the last kick of the game.

7:59That match is where we're going to start today. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network.

8:28to finish the game. I've no voice left. Wow. Nice summary there from Darren Maloney with Ray Houghton on vibes in the background. Summing up, a dramatic ending to what may just be the best qualifying match of all time. Let's hear from someone who was there, Gavin Cooney from The 42. Gavin, welcome back. Thanks very much, James. It was an extraordinary afternoon to watch on TV. What was it like in Budapest? It was great. that Pushkas Arena is obviously you know the centrepiece of Victor Orban's massive state investment in football in Hungary but forget state investment I mean in Ireland we trade more less on state investment than we do on national feeling and that Troy Parrott and that national team of name and gender is a national feeling around the football team that has been dormant for almost a decade remarkable in the ground I mean it's a phenomenal atmosphere because I'm so Irish focused it's easy to lose sight of how much the World Cup means to Hungary.

9:31I mean, like, you know, they've lost two World Cup finals and yet haven't been to a World Cup since 1986. Ireland have been to three World Cups since they were last added. So what really struck me about the atmosphere on the ground was the silence. So Paris equalises to make it 2-2, and there's a kind of a dumbstruck silence at that point. But then obviously the atmosphere cranks up again, and Hungary have those have those ultras behind the behind the goal the Carpathian Brigade like creating constant drumbeat of noise and then the winner goes in and again it's just complete silence like a dumbstruck awestruck silence and obviously the Irish fans up in the gods behind the other goal are going mental and then Parrot is off screaming through the air but it was so silent it must have been like screaming underwater that's what will stick with me actually it was just the silence and how quickly then the stadium emptied, apart from obviously the Irish fans who were kept back for half an hour and would have been happy to be kept back three hours, to be honest.

10:30It was just, you know, like it's easy. Like, I mean, you know, we haven't had many great nights in Irish football in the last decade, but that one stands out among any of them ever, to be honest, James. Lots of teams come back to win a game three too, but I think to give the measure of Ireland's achievement here, we need to take it back a bit further. A week ago, you'd been so abject. You had been so abject in the opening matches. What was it, one point from the first three? There was no way that Ireland would be booking a place in the playoffs. Then we had the game against Portugal in Dublin and the 2-0 victory there, with Troy Parrott getting his first two goals in that.

11:08Only playing, I guess, because Evan Ferguson's injured at Roma. And then this game here, when they, what was it, three minutes in, when Hungary opened the scoring, what was the mood among Irish supporters then? Oh no, we put everything into Thursday night. Ireland started terribly. I mean, they couldn't get out of their own penalty area. They conceded a free kick after 20 seconds, a first corner after a first minute. They barely cleared that. They made a hames of clearing the second one. Liam Scales managed to skew it over his shoulder. And then they went to sleep on the third one, left Kirke as unmarked for that short corner and that stinger of a cross by Sabaslay and didn't get in front of that cross.

11:49and the goal scorer Lukács managed to be just about onside. So we're thinking, oh no, like the pressure has got too much for these players because Seamus Coleman is back now and bringing the average age of the squad back up. But it's a very young team that is known only misery and disappointment for their years-long international careers at this point. But they battle back. Chidozi Ogbeni, who had an outstanding game for Ireland, wins the penalty for that kick from the lumbering Shalai, who I actually wouldn't be surprised if he announces his retirement from all forms of the game this morning.

12:24Parrott then is standing over that penalty forever, James. He's missed his last two penalties for AZ at club level. He can't hear the whistle because of the whistling from the Hungarian fans. So the referee has to give him kind of a gesture to go and take it. But he rifles it in. And then Ireland, I mean, we're not a gung-ho people, really, you know. And our football team is not either. We were determined to chase that game in an extremely patient and cautious manner. So we sat back, protecting not like a lead, but merely the chance to at some point chase the lead. And you can see as we, Colin stood far too far off Varga, who in fairness thinks a stunning goal to make it 2-1.

13:02And then Ireland, I don't want to say they rolled their luck a bit, but like Hungary missed big chances. Kelleher stood up tall, Scales made a couple of great blocks in the second half when it was still 2-1. And then I think Hungary began to get nervous and we're like, oh, my God, we haven't put these guys away yet. This can't be yet another World Cup nightmare. And Troy Parrott said, yeah, it's going to be another World Cup nightmare for you. Wow. Well, a beautiful, is it a dink? Is it a chip? I'm not sure. What would you call it for the second goal? About 10 minutes from time. I would have called it probably a dink.

13:34What was like it was the touch. Oh, James, like the touch was so good. It killed it dead and it gave him enough time to figure out, do I want to square this? to I think it was Johnny Kenny or do I want to lob the goalkeeper and maybe that put a little bit of doubt in the goalkeeper's mind and he just lifted it over him like Paratus emerged like we haven't like he was always very talented from a young age and was you know like we're always crowning the next best thing in Ireland because ever since Robbie Keane retired you know heaven help the land that needs a hero and all that and Paratus had to wear these expectations since he made his debut for Ireland and for Tottenham in the Premier League at the age of 17 and he kind of fell away a bit like you know he'd struggled with injuries during loan spells in the Championship and in League One I can remember a couple of years ago after Ferguson had burst on the scene we talked to Parrot as if and would you have any advice for Evan Ferguson you've been in the limelight as a youngster and he was 21 and he turned around and said well hang on I'm not an old fella yet like I'm not a senior fella yet the injuries have cleared up he's gone to AZ a style of football that really suits him and he's well to use the lame pun I know you're much better at these than me but he has taken flight Oh nice so good at playing on the shoulder of course I was going to say like I mean the pun potential of Troy Parrott meeting you is like the meeting of De Niro and Pacino and Heath like you know this is the these are two heavyweights meeting now No I mean I think everyone's had a field day with talking about original Parrott material and also it's not just the Parrott there's also Troy you've got the glory that was Troy Troy Story.

15:12Troy Story 3, actually, in this game. Of course. Anyway, that with 10 minutes to go, 15 minutes later, it was still 2-2 when Kelleher just punts the ball upfield with what essentially is surely the last play of the game. And what were you thinking then? Here we go again. Like, I didn't expect it to go in, obviously. And then as soon as it goes in, It took me about what feels like 15 minutes to figure out Has that gone into the side netting? Oh no, that's actually in the right side of the post And I, along with 4.5 million other Irish people Thought of Robbie Keane's goal against Germany At the 2002 World Cup It is eerily similar You know, the strawberry blonde Irish player Kicking the ball along I think it was Staunton in 0-2 It was Geller today Liam Scales is in the Niall Quinn role He's up and gets the nod on And then Parrot ghosting in a la Robbie Keane.

16:09Robbie got obviously a firmer finish on it over Oliver Cannon 0-2. Parrott, I don't know how he manages to get the contact on it. There's a great still image of it. He's straining every sinew. He's on his tippy toes on his whatever left foot and then just gets like the top stud of his right boot onto it to kind of poke it beyond the goalkeeper. It was an amazing moment. He kind of pokes it down so that it actually goes under. I think the keeper but extraordinary as you say and then he wheels away there's tears and his interview as extraordinary as his hand trick was I think for many people watching that post-game interview has been something very very special from this weekend as well Oh yeah he gave a great interview on Thursday after Portugal describing it as the best night of his life and he didn't he did the great thing he didn't leave it with in football terms it was best night of my life and it turns out now it was the second best moment of his week it was such it was a brilliant interview with Tony O'Donoghue of RTE, you know, speaking through tears, insisting that these were tears of joy, but, you know, that's why he talked about, that's why we love football and these things are possible.

17:16It didn't seem like they will be possible for this group of players. It had been so long since we've had anything to cheer about with regards to this team. We thought that maybe we had been left behind, but no, it can still deliver for us. Excellent. Into the playoffs you go, as I say, a week ago. Who would have thought? Just lastly then, Gavin, what has happened? How did you go from one point in your first three to winning the next three, including these two magnificent victories? It's hard to explain it, really. Like, Ireland did lose to Armenia in September. Armenia watchers will realise they were beaten 9-1 by Portugal last night.

17:54They were ranked 105th in the world when we played them. And Ireland were shocking. I mean, that was 2-1 going on 4-5-1. And Hal Grimmsson afterwards, you know, hoarse voice, ashen-faced, said it would take a miracle to get to the World Cup. He did correct some of his errors. He brought back Seamus Coleman, who had been omitted from the squad in September, brought back John Egan as well. They bring the kind of experience and leadership and organisation, these things that, you know, you'll hear always talked about as to they're so important, they're hard to explain and point to exactly what they are, but they're real things because this Irish revival has been built on them and crucially, parrot is fit.

18:31You know, he missed the window in September because he picked up a knee injury with AZ at the time. He was the top goal scorer in all of Europe at the time. And he wasn't even fully fit for the October window, but fit and firing for November. And he's just gone to another level. And he's the kind of goal scorer that we haven't had since Robbie Keane, really. So those are probably the real factors. And happily, Cristiano Ronaldo has played a hilarious role in it all as well. We must not forget, you know, less Ronaldo be left out of any headlines. So it's just that coalition of factors and some luck as well.

19:08I mean, there's some breaks in Ireland's way that previously hadn't, but the baleful gods have finally relented their assault on Ireland and we're going to look forward to the playoffs in March. All right, those who the gods wish to destroy and all that. No, sorry, yes, good luck with the playoffs. The draw is 2 o 'clock on Thursday and it's going to be so exciting to see who you draw. Gavin, best of luck with that. Thank you so much for sharing your side of that incredible afternoon in Budapest. Look forward to speaking to you again soon. Thanks, Emilio and James.

19:43Gavin Cooney of The 42. Natalie. On the manager, Jaime Halgrimson. Yes. Yes. Sorry if I'm butchering his pronunciation, but, you know, manager of Iceland when they played in 2018. So it was quite funny when he got asked about, oh, my God, this incredible moment. How do you sum up the emotion? You know, that kind of question. And he kind of gives a smile and said, yeah, I've lived that. Because he went through kind of the same thing with Iceland, where there was a lot of emotion, first with the Euros and then with the World Cup qualification. And the points they got from the match against Argentina in 2018.

20:24and if you look him up online, I found it interesting that his description is professional football manager, former player and dentist. That's right. Yeah, I'm not sure in which point you drop the dentist, because you've been to the World Cup and the Euros. It's a proper trade though. Yes, yes, no. I'd love to see one of his business cards from when he was still working as a dentist, whether it's football manager first, Dentist second, entertainer third. There you go. Maybe just the double side football coach on one side, dentist on the other, depending on who you're handing it to. Maybe there'll be more greatest nights of Troy Parrott's life when the playoffs come around.

21:05In the hat alongside the Republic of Ireland are Kosovo, Italy, Ukraine, Turkey, Poland and Albania, plus through the Nations League, Romania, Sweden and Northern Ireland. You'll then add to that two from Belgium, Wales and North Macedonia, and one of Scotland and Denmark, one of Austria and Bosnia and Herzegovina, one of Germany and Slovakia, and one of the Czechs or the Faroe Islands. So there's some proper sides in there, and Italy. Yeah. Wales, Tom, guaranteed to be there one way or another. The draw that Belgium had against Kazakhstan, to everyone's great surprise, means that Wales can still qualify as group winners in Tuesday night's clash with North Macedonia.

21:53You're going along to that game, as is Daniel. I am not. Oh, you're not going to? No. Daniel is. Daniel, you're going to this game. I am indeed. At least one of us is patriotic for Wales. Yeah, I mean, I know we discussed this on Thursday, but it is one of the great pre-match atmospheres in world football. Listening to Amahid and the Red Wall. And yeah, I can't wait. it's going to be a fantastic occasion. And as Tom said at the top of the show, it really does matter for Wales to finish second and to get that home draw in the playoffs. Belgium will finish top of the group because their fixture is gentle.

22:30But yeah, it's massive for Wales. And they have a number of injuries, particularly in midfield and big Kiefer Moore missing as well. So yeah, it's going to be a nervy night, I think. Yeah, and I mean, you know, you look at Wales' form this year, the only teams that Wales have beaten since the start of the year are Kazakhstan twice and Liechtenstein twice. And over the last couple of months, every time the level has gone up, the friendlies against Canada and England, the most recent World Cup qualifier against Belgium, Wales have been found out. We should be capable of beating up North Macedonia.

23:06Should have beaten them in the away game in March, having completely dominated the game, then fell behind to this really silly goal in stoppage time, but then equalised through David Brooks and one of the worst goals you've ever seen. So it ended up coming away from a game that we should have won, relieved that we'd snatched a draw. And North Macedonia haven't lost a competitive fixture this year. They drew home and away against Belgium. So the archetypal tough team to beat. As Daniel said, lots of key absentees, in particular midfield, Ethan Ampede, Jordan James, both suspended. But if you can't win at home to North Macedonia, what are you doing kind of thing?

23:42And just to go back to the point about the importance of a favourable draw in the playoffs. In the 2022 World Cup playoffs and the Euro 2024 playoffs, Wales managed to get home draws for the semi-final and final, obviously qualified in 2022, lost on penalties to Poland for Euro 2024. And knowing how good Wales are at home, how big a role the atmosphere plays, it does feel absolutely critical that they win this game. And if they do, they then go into the playoffs with a bit of forward momentum behind them. OK, we'll see how good they are at home Tuesday night then with North Macedonia. Scotland also in action on Tuesday night.

24:22They face Denmark in what is a head-to-head battle for top spot of that group. Whoever wins, or Denmark actually are OK with a draw, but Scotland with a win will be straight into the World Cup. Their first appearance of that tournament since 1998. What a big game that's going to be. We'll talk about that next.

24:42This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Olly Kay and the very best football writers around. Robertson needs to be good, it is, it's Christy! And now they are back to within one! And this could yet be a stunning night for the Scotland side! Yeah, Hampton Park getting ready for its biggest game in years Tuesday night as Scotland face Denmark. On her way there, possibly very shortly, is Laura Brannan, formerly of the Totally Scottish Football Show. And she joins us now.

25:22Laura, you're in your Scotland top. I am, I am. I'm warming up. Excellent. What's the atmosphere like ahead of this absolutely key game on Tuesday? Slightly shocked, slightly not quite sure how we've got to this stage, but also just excitement at this point. I think it's a relief that we're still in it, and Tuesday night is not going to be a dead rubber. I think that's what everyone just wanted, going into the final game. We can deal with whatever happens at Hampden, but we just didn't want to waste this opportunity going to a sell-out crowd in our stadium on the last day. And it's that kind of nervous excitement right now, That will probably change closer to kick-off, though.

26:04It was more the nervous and the excitement, I guess, around the hour mark of your game away in Piraeus at the weekend when Greece were 3-0 up and, meanwhile, Denmark were a goal up in their game against Belarus. But Belarus came roaring back, as did Scotland. It was the eight craziest minutes of being a Scotland fan, I think, on Saturday night. It came to a point where I just didn't even know what was happening anymore. So we were in the pub and everyone was just down and out, 3-0 down. We're thinking, oh, why are we even here? Let's just go home. And it was typical Scotland, really. We have to always do it the Scotland way.

26:43So Belarus score, they equalise. Then they take the lead. At the same time, we're pulling one back. We're pulling a second one back. The pub didn't have a clue what was going on. We had the phones out with live score on it, watching the results coming through. the last saying to stoppage time, that was, it was like watching teletext two decades ago. Everyone was just staring at phones, waiting for numbers to change. And it was just something I don't think we've ever experienced in this day and age when we're so used to just seeing everything on the TV screens. Well, it's going to be simple enough on Tuesday night.

27:16Scotland must win to top the group. A draw is enough for Denmark. They might be feeling a little bit deflated after only drawing with Belarus at the weekend. Plus, they had a couple of players out with a virus, Joaquin Andersen and Rasmus Hoyland, for the Belarus game. And no way of knowing really how much that virus has spread. How was Scotland looking? And how much has the crowd resolved their earlier issues with their national side? There's a lot of unhappiness in terms of the performances right now. It's not been good. it's been up and down I think especially since Euros in 2024 we've struggled to really kind of get into a groove not like we say the old days now it was like four years ago we were beating not even that three years ago beating Spain and even Denmark as well at home we saw some of our best ever performances at Hampden in our lifetime we've not quite found that recently fans are very frustrated we've been watching some dire performances at Hampden poor atmospheres as well as a result of that with Steve Clarke there's a lot of discontent in terms of how he lines up the team when he makes changes as well when it's not going right who those changes are as well it's always quite a controversial one I like to stay positive and say in Stevie we trust because somehow he manages to turn it around and pull it off but a lot of Scotland fans are a lot lower than me in terms of those optimism levels and they want to see more in terms of tactics and better performances and I'm very much of let's just get it over the line and then analyse it but a lot more fans just want to watch a better product on the pitch in terms of the opposition he doesn't tend to change it very often depending on who the opposition is it's always kind of the same regardless so it's not it's not harmonious across the board right now but we're in that stage of if we pull off on Tuesday night, then no one's going to be complaining about tactics.

29:20Of course. Laura, thank you so much. It looks set to be a very emotional night one way or the other. And I hope it goes well for you. And we can catch up with you again soon. Yeah, thank you so much. Really hoping for a historic night.

29:39You're listening to The Totally Football Show with James Richardson. Now we do four times a week. Keep up to date with us on Insta and enjoy seeing glorious Technicolor on YouTube at The Totally Show. Scotland, they could be there. They could be one of the 48, Natalie. I've got a broad question for you. Yes. Who's going to win this World Cup, do you think? Oh, God, really? Yeah. Already? Yeah. It's November. I'll tell you who's not going to win it. Oh. Nigeria. They lost their pre-playoff playoff in Morocco on Sunday against Democratic Republic of Congo on a Pounties shootout. Democratic Republic of Congo changed their goalkeeper for the shootout, you know, in Netherlands fashion.

30:23It was Timothy Fayulu, who's currently on loan at Noah in Armenia. He's not only on loan at Noah in Armenia. He's the second choice goalkeeper at Noah in Armenia. So he's not even a regular starter at club level. Comes on purely for the shootout. Makes two saves. Very, very nice. Not very nice, of course, for Nigeria. A 48-team expanded World Cup, but they still can't make it there. Cameroon, the same for them, but hugely positive for the Democratic Republic of Congo, who's still in with a chance of reaching the World Cup for the first time since 1974, if they do it, back when they were known, Tom, as...

31:01Well, there was Zaire and they were sadly seen as a bit of a laughingstock. There's that famous footage of the player breaking out of the wall at the free kick and hammering the ball away. And all these guys don't even know how to play football. They lost all their games. And then subsequently it came out that there were various kinds of political pressures on the team, that their life during the tournament was extremely kind of pressurised and unpleasant. And so actually, I think, yeah, for DR Congo, which is a mad football nation, to potentially get to another World Cup and not right the wrongs of 74, but give a kind of positive impression of, you know, their credentials as a football country would be incredible.

31:39Defend free kicks better. Yeah. So into the playoff they go. It's an intercontinental playoff, which sounds so exciting. It's going to be taking place in March. Six teams involved, Natalie. Bolivia are there, New Caledonia, and now Democratic Republic of Congo. There'll be three other sides, either United Arab Emirates or Iraq. They're playing Tuesday night. and then two runners up from Central America. So, anyway. It sounds like the DRC will be seeded in those playoffs, which means they'll get a bye to the final as well. I think probably the chances are it will be DRC and Bolivia seeded. So they've got a really, really good chance now, yeah.

32:17Excellent. Excellent. All right, so the question is, who's looking really good? This kind of came up on Sunday evening as I watched Norway tear Italy apart at San Siro and began to think, and indeed, three seashells, right, Sin, saying, are Norway the dark horse in this World Cup? Will the Ferrari front drag the ladder rear to World Cup glory? It was lovely because I watched a bit of that match as well, Italy-Norway, coming back to the World Cup after 28 years and celebrating it. And the truth is they really switched on in the second half and just Italy just couldn't exist anymore. And Erling Haaland pulled on Erling Haaland because he wasn't, you know, doing much until the 77th minute when he scores kind of a half volley.

33:06It was a lovely goal. And then his second goal. A minute later. Yes, a minute later, like very much a striker goal. 32 goals this season for club and country. 16 goals in eight World Cup qualifiers. But it also, James, it left me wondering, what does this say about Italy? Because I know they're not going to score nine goals against Norway. But I just thought that, you know, after scoring the first one in 10 minutes into the game. And I know they had important players out as well in Moise Kinn and Calafiore. But still, and the trauma with the playoffs, you know. I mean, trauma's the word, having gone out in playoffs before the first two World Cups.

33:52This morning's Gazette de la Sport actually goes with tennis on the front page. Oh, yeah, because Yannick Sinner won the ATP finals. But there's a little box which says San Siro whistles Italy humiliated. Yeah, which I think is probably a fair summary because they, as you said, couldn't live with Holland and Co. But it's a workman like Azuri side. They have some invention down the flanks for De Marco and that, but I think this is more about Norway. What they've done, not just to Italy, but eight wins out of eight, a goal difference of plus 32, which is just mad. And with Erling Haaland in the side, you're always in there.

34:31Yeah, and he has now scored 55 international goals in 48 appearances. That's a lot. Coincidentally, Kylian Mbappe has scored the exact same number of international goals. It's taken Mbappe 94 games to reach that tally. That's still a remarkably decent return and the kind of thing that pre-Messi Ronaldo would have been historic. But the fact that Haaland is averaging more than a goal a game in international football, OK, you could say that, yes, occasionally a country like Norway or whoever, you come across sort of cannon fodder. But there aren't any other players in international football currently who are scoring at that rate in international football.

35:09Also, arguably, that whole story about scoring loads of goals in qualifying doesn't matter when you come to a tournament because it's a different level of teams. It doesn't necessarily apply to this World Cup, given some of the sides that will be making their way there. Yeah, and we're talking about Haaland, but Martin Oldegaard has seven assists during qualifiers. And was missing in this game. And was missing in this game. And Strand Larsson scored quite a goal, the fourth goal. Yes. Strand Larsson, but you also get a Lancer's ball here. Oh, it was good! It was good!

35:44They've got so much talent up front. As Three Seashells says, the Ferrari up front. Hey, Daniel. Yeah, as I say, they describe it as a Lada at the rear. I mean, comparatively, I suppose that's true, but it's not a knockabout defence. Maybe he likes Lada. Lada's quite reliable. Maybe true. True. Julian Ryerson's starting for Dortmund. Christopher Ayer has his injury problems, but would start for Brentford when fit every week. Chilbo and Hegem plays every week for Bologna. It's a decent team. It's not a complete mess at the back. And there's enough glue there with Sander Berger in midfield, I think, to just let everybody else go and play.

36:25I would not want to be drawing Norway's group in the World Cup next year, that's for sure. The draw is going to be very interesting, because I think there are a lot of teams just waiting for the draw in this gigantic World Cup. And I don't know, depending on the draw, how far can Norway go, really? That's the question, isn't it? How far can Brazil go? We were talking about it. This is why I have the draw in my head. Right. Yes, because the mood around the Brazilian fans is we need to take a look at the draw to see how far Brazil can actually go. It's very different from the previous couple of World Cups where we were talking about winning the World Cup, especially Qatar.

37:02We were really talking about being one of the favourites to win the World Cup. It's been such a messy preparation for 2026 that we're thinking, OK, we need to wait for the draw to see if we can get to, I don't know, maybe quarterfinals. You know, that would be amazing. But there's been a lot of signs of improvements in Brazil. So how many games Sanjol has he had so far? Is it seven? Yes, he took over the team in June, in the June international break. So yes, seven now. And four wins now. The latest one being at the Emirates this weekend with a 2-0 win over Senegal, who don't get beaten very often, as England found, of course.

37:40Yes, exactly. So Brazil played a brilliant 45 minutes, probably the best 45 minutes under Ancelotti. And I think the most interesting thing is to see that we're not playing with a recognized striker. There's a big talk around who's going to be the number one, number nine. And again, Brazil started with Vinicius and Rodrigo kind of playing as a false nine and Mateus Cunha filling up the pockets and Estevão playing on the right hand side. And it's been working really well. It's looking fluid and the goals are just coming up. You know, Estevão scoring again. He's the main goal scorer in the Ancelotti era.

38:17He scored four times under Ancelotti already, which is a remarkable stat for an 18 year old. and Casemiro scored the other one and Casemiro has been, he had a brilliant match again and scoring strike as well. He's been scoring for Man United, scored three times for Man United and now for Brazil. So Casemiro is a mystery to me. He had his Gary Neville against West Brom moment famously, I think 18 months ago by now or something like that. And yet he's the key, he's probably the most decisive player aside of Bruno Fernandes and Mateus Cunha. So one of the most decisive players for Manchester United and for Brazil as well.

38:54Yeah, Ancelotti loves him, worked with him in Real Madrid, of course, and really likes him. He was praising Casemiro after the match, saying that he's crucial in giving balance to this team, which is true because in the partnership with Bruno Guimarães in the middle is working wonders. Even Bruno mentioned this after the game that they've been really getting along. And to be fair, Casemiro hasn't been really questioned in Brazil. He constantly delivers, he has a winning career and he's pretty solid playing for Brazil. Natalie, you just said there before about everybody would maybe be happy with quarters and then you went off to reel off a list of an amazing front four, a really good central midfield combination and one of the great cup managers in the game's history.

39:45Is that just about learning the lessons of pride before or for from Qatar and just trying to ignore everything and grow into a tournament? Because Brazil clearly can win the World Cup, can't they? Well, I think if we had an extra year, people would be more confident, an extra year under Ancelotti, because the past three years have been such a mess with four different managers that forming a team was really the main issue. Now it's looking good, but I feel like we haven't had enough time to really test this team. If you don't have long with a new manager, is Ancelosi actually one of the better managers you can have?

40:23Definitely. Definitely. Because not only he can put a team together and make these players play where they want to play, but also make tough decisions like leaving Neymar out of the World Cup, which is a real. And also absorbing the pressure, because this is one of the main things with Brazil, not winning the World Cup since 2002. players, they really feel the pressure. And I've had off the record conversations with a lot of international Brazilian players, and they all mentioned this, how much it gets in their head. And you can feel when you talk to them how much the environment is way better under Ancelotti.

41:01So we're not feeling very positive because of all this mess. But there is, of course, there's the fullbacks, who is just a question mark. but we do have a really good team. Gabriel being one of the best defenders in the world. Militão. Marquinhos. Keepers pretty good. Keepers, yes, exactly. And Ederson and Alisson. Yes, it is a really good team. So fullbacks. This is a stitch-up from Natalie, isn't it? An absolute stitch-up. A couple of people writing in. J. Cole says, can Natalie talk about how excited she is to watch Esteval? Yes, J. Cole, she can. Will he start ahead of Rafinha Rodrigo in the World Cup?

41:39Also, I'd love to interview with Esteval on Sky Sports. Nice, thank you. Scott says if you're born after 2000, then you're surely wondering what all the fuss is about with Brazil. Sorry, Natalie, says Scott. Hey, maybe the Celestau are about to remind everyone. No, Scott, that's a bit harsh. Come on. With Esteval and the right position in attack, it's really interesting because naturally you would think that it's Hafinha's position, you know, on the right-hand side of attack. and when he comes back, when he comes back fit, we are really just wondering what Ancelotti will do, if he will alternate between them.

42:18I mean, Estevão is really young. We weren't expecting him to deliver so much so soon. So it is a very interesting one on this side. What do you think? Would you have Brazil among the favourites, Daniel? By the sound of it, you would. Yes. I mean, I'd forgotten that Rufinho existed. I'd forgotten that Hendrik existed. I'd forgotten that Militao existed. And Natalie's only argument against it is the fullbacks aren't brilliant. And I think, yeah, she's hustling us. The messaging, because Brazil have gone into every World Cup since they last won it in 2002, with people saying, look at this collection of forwards.

42:54And every time they've been eliminated in such painful circumstances, like that incredible attack that gets knocked out by France in 2006. 2010, huge expectation they lose to the Netherlands. 2014 the ultimate trauma the 7-1 against Germany apologies Natalie the name orangey all the rest of it lose to Belgium 2018 penalties in 2022 yeah I'm loving this but he's just twisting the knife but basically like on paper Brazil are always going to be contenders to win the World Cup but when you have had so many very similar experiences and you take any of those teams and okay the 2010 10 team was sort of subsequently felt to be a bit too functional, whatever.

43:35But in terms of pure quality, the ability is always there. But I can understand why now it's kind of like, oh, yeah, you know, maybe caught us and then see how we go because they've tried. Yeah, we're going to go in and win it. And it hasn't worked. It's also because Natalie's becoming a British citizen. So she doesn't have cultural identity. The Home Office listener has just given her a big tick in the patriotic box. Check on us after the March international break because Brazil's playing France and that's going to be a real test. Top echelon, if we're not going to lose, top echelon, you've got to have Brazil in there.

44:04Yeah. I mean, England, I don't know what, if you have any further thoughts, Daniel, after the 2-0 against Albania, if that moved your needle at all. I mean, they've appointed a manager to win a tournament. It's a new strategy from England to not build from within, to think there's nobody that quite fits the building phase now, so we just need to try and win a tournament. So they have to be involved in that conversation. I think the heat is a factor for European teams, particularly European teams where the average temperature is about 18. So, yeah, that's going to be an issue. It's haunted England before at those major tournaments.

44:42It's haunted them in, you know, in tournaments in Europe when it's hot. You know, I'm thinking back to Germany, 06. So, yeah, that is a factor. But other than that, yeah, I think France, Spain, Brazil, England, the norms, England. So, yeah, I mean, that would be, I think, would be the last four that people would pick with slight question marks about Argentina. Eight wins out of eight for the three lines. 22 goals scored, none whatsoever conceded. Harry Kane with 78 international goals now for those keeping track. Pretty hard. If you're talking about fullbacks for Brazil, what would be the one weakness?

45:16Is it a left side question? What's the issue for England, Daniel? Neil? I mean, yes, fullbacks in terms of we don't quite know who we're going to pick. I think strength in defence in general. I think beyond John Stones, Konsa and Gehi, assuming they will fit, they'll be the first three. But there is some doubts about that strength in depth. And then it's just about belief. It's just about do you believe in a massive game, quarterfinal or a semifinal against a team you haven't beaten in a major tournament for a long, long time? Have you got enough about you to kind of push that last bit. That's what was always lacking under Southgate.

45:51There seemed to be a kind of, not tactical, but a sort of a mentality vacuum at just getting over the line. And that will ultimately be what decides their fate. Because for the first time, I think this is a tournament where genuinely, if they don't win it, it will be seen as failure. I know that was the kind of aftermath of the Euros under Southgate, but reaching the final was a good effort, particularly given how England played. So it's just about, yeah, if you know you're expected to win it, can you get it over the line? Plus it being potentially 40 degrees when they play. And there again, the importance of the draw.

46:26If you're in one of the groups who are playing on the East Coast, you know, the heat will be nothing like the factor it is for the teams on the West Coast. Unless you're in Seattle, of course. Unless you're in Seattle, yeah. And if you're scoring from set pieces, because people have been talking about, you know, England being more pragmatic. Maybe with these conditions, with the weather conditions that we really... So true. Yeah, you have to kind of celebrate the fact that you can be pragmatic. That's a really good point. What about France and the other team that we're allowing into this elite echelon?

46:56Yeah, there was a piece in the Keep the other day about, you know, the main contenders. And I think France see themselves as being slightly behind England and Spain. You go back to the last Euros and France reached the semifinals, but were dreadful, you know, despite having this galaxy of attacking talent. remarkable array of attacking players. So the Ukraine game on Thursday, they started with a front four of Mbappe up front, Ryan Schalke in the number 10 role, Michael Alisi on one wing, Bradley Bacola on the other wing. And then you're bringing on, you know, the likes of Hugo Eketike, Magnus Akliusz, Ousmane Dembele is currently injured, Desiree Douai is currently injured.

47:34So the front end of the team looks ridiculously strong. I think the main concern in France is about the lack of strength in depth in defensive areas. there's a very clear first choice back four which is Jules Koundé at right back William Saliba Dayou Pamecano at centre back and Luca Dean who's still on a march on Teo Hernandez for the left back role but every time Deschamps tries to rotate things France encounter difficulties so last night against Azerbaijan it was the second choice back for Malo Gusteau, Ibrahim Kanata who is captain Lucas Hernandez and Teo Hernandez and okay they weren't quite comfortably in the end but they did look quite shaky.

48:13Canate's form for France in recent months has been really poor. He didn't play a single minute at Euro 24. And that, I think, is a concern. There's very little strength in depth in the fullback areas at all. But that issue they had 18 months ago of not being able to score a single goal from open play, that's gone now. Yeah. So basically Deschamps has settled on a 4-2-3-1 system. And the most exciting development post-Euro 2024 has been the decision to basically build the attack around Michael Alise. He's now the number 10 and he has been exceptional in quite a few of France's games. It was interesting watching the game against Ukraine on Thursday.

48:54Alise started on the right, which is obviously where he usually plays for Bayern Munich, where he previously played a lot for Crystal Palace. And Ryan Schalke started at number 10 and you kind of thought, I wonder how this is going to go. And Ukraine sat deep, they played with a back five, didn't leave any space and Schalke was on the ball a lot, didn't really create very much. France then went ahead with a penalty. Schalke went off and Alise moved into the number 10 role and within five minutes, literally five minutes, he'd created two clear-cut chances with perfectly weighted through balls, one to Akliush, one to Ekitike, and he scored France's second goal.

49:31I felt a bit sorry for Schalke because he went off just at the moment when the space was starting to appear because ukraine are a goal down and they had to start pushing forward but alice just looks absolutely born for that world and it's interesting that de chan who we tend to think of as someone who is tactically very conservative has decided that he wants to give this sort of responsibility to alice and turn him into a number 10 when generally speaking he's you know he's always played on the wing you know and bapé still banging the goals in all the time you know duane dembele uh you know two exceptionally good good players so again on paper they they should be a formidable prospect and this new shape does suggest that they are they're going to be a lot more coherent in an attacking sense well champs the headlines just waiting there you go just waiting to be written there all right well we're going to have further chance of course to chat about these teams but interesting just to get a little uh sense how things are wanted to ask you natalie you mentioned leaving neymar out the side But how's his battle with relegation in Brazil going?

50:35Well, yeah. Well, he's been playing for Santos, being heavily criticized because he's not playing well. He doesn't look fit. Yeah, recently Santos played Palmeiras during this international break in a rescheduled match. And Palmeiras fighting for the title. But they had so many players out because of international break and injuries. And anyway, and Santos pulled a win, an important win. And they've been playing really poorly. So there is a real chance that Neymar will get relegated with Santos. There's still five games to go. So, yeah, we'll just wait and see. But they're not playing well. And Neymar recently made the headlines.

51:15He played against Flamengo and he was just complaining about everyone on the pitch, shouting with his teammates. It was just really ugly. It's not looking good. Sorry, there was something else I think you wanted to say. Yeah, no, we were talking about this, the so-called favorites to win the World Cup. International break in March, again, will also be interesting because we'll have the finalissima between Argentina and Spain. So, yes. So, yeah, that should be good. Argentina. I say, of course, what's the finalissima again? The team who won the Euros and the team who won the Copa America. Oh, okay.

51:50Like the Intercontinental Cup. Of nations. Of nations. Oh, okay. Yeah. So in Argentina, they did absolutely brilliant during the qualifiers and they just played well and they're very solid and consistent. Messi is still playing. Remember when we thought 2022 was going to be his last World Cup? Yeah, no, he's playing, scoring, all of it. And he can do it in 40 degree heat, as has been evidenced by his club of choice. Daniel. I wish I'd bought shares in the word intercontinental a year ago. It's absolutely on fire at the moment with playoffs and finalismas. I'm loving it. Excellent. Well, it's going to be interesting to see how those final slots get filled up.

52:35And, of course, we'll be back on that. I mean, we'll have some chat about that in Thursday's show. We'll also look on the midweek Women's Champions League games because some big fixtures coming up there. Man United, who are currently one of the three unbeaten sides, along with Lyon and Barcelona. They're away at Wolfsburg. Arsenal up against Real Madrid. Chelsea have Barcelona. That's big. Of course, this weekend was a big one in the WSL with Man United getting beaten by league leaders Man City. And second-place Chelsea slipping a little bit behind Man City with their draw at Liverpool. The other big game, of course, was the Arsenal-Spurs game which finished nil, nil, nil.

53:22Chelsea's build-up to Barcelona and dropping points at Anfield will both be discussed in this week straight out of Cobham with our good friend Matt Davis-Adams. So check that one out whenever it drops, probably imminently. We'll have a new Totally Football Show on Thursday with playoff news and stuff. And, of course, they look forward to Premier League match day 12. Hmm. So do join us for that, listener. Hope you'll have a good time in the meanwhile. Many thanks to Tom Williams, to Natalie Jedra, Daniel Storey, Jake and Charlie in the booth. And we'll be back with you soon. For now, from all of us here, it's goodbye.

54:20Search for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. We're also at The Totally Football Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

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