Is De Zerbi Spurs' saviour? Can Italy end their World Cup curse?

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1:34The Athletic FC

1:43Totally Football Show. Today, Spurs, Igor to stress it was mutual consent as Tudor's tumultuous term terminated. Elsewhere, all white on the night at Wembley. World Cup playoffs, kick clashes and more to come on this Totally Football Show.

2:06and hello listener it's monday the 30th of march for us in the brand new recently refurbished totally studio i've got daniel's story not able to enjoy it up on the big screen how you doing daniel i'm well matt how are you yeah i'm very well thank you i'm going to ask everybody who is studio based today to pick a favorite photo adorning the walls of the studio these days tom Williams there's a couple of France related ones are you going to stick to type? Hi Matt yeah that would be the most predictable choice wouldn't it? Quite like Perlo v Zidane over here from the 2006 final. Yeah obviously free image of that final.

2:43Free hand I mean the image that very much comes to mind when you think of that game. Zidane yeah looking like he's about to nut the ball rather than another player. If only he knew what was to come. Duncan there's a couple of mascots arms around the referee with an extremely large football, but I'm guessing that's not the one you're going to pick. No. Obviously, Conte, Tuchel, Handshake Gate one over there in the corner is quite good. I don't like the Matarazzi-Rui Costa one because that's been seen on social media approximately four trillion times. And there's a better version where Matarazzi is leaning on Rui Costa's shoulder.

3:19I quite like the Dudek one because, I mean, everyone knows he didn't really stay on his line, but you can see there, you can't even see the goal line. So, yeah, fair play. The Athletics' Dan Kilpatrick's with us for the first part of the show to talk Tottenham. Does that mean that you're picking a quite poorly framed image of Jürgen Klinsmann? Yeah, I mean, it's directly opposite me, and I'm here to talk Spurs, so I do feel duty-bound to pick Klinsmann. There aren't many others really catching my eye. Maybe Ronaldinho kind of adds a bit of joy. It's quite a smorgasbord. There are some kind of classic photos.

3:51We've also got Razor Ruddock during his Swindon Town era, which is a period of time that I'd completely forgotten about. All right, well, Daniel and I aren't going to pick one in protest of the fact that there is simply not a Nottingham Forest image to be seen. But Dan is with us to give us the view from the lane on the latest Tottenham to Malt. We're going to start with a Spurs statement on Sunday. This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network.

4:2144 days and out then for Igor Tudor. He lasted five days longer than one of his predecessors, Ange Postacoglu, did at Forest. 24 hours more than Liz Truss managed as Prime Minister. He's not the shortest reigning Tudor in English history, though. Apologies to the relatives of Lady Jane Grey for bringing up her nine-day tenure at the end of the Tudor period on the pod again. Igor's inevitable exit announced on Sunday afternoon, a statement which, amongst other waffles, said, we can confirm it's been mutually agreed for head coach Igor Tudor to leave the club with immediate effect. We also acknowledge the bereavement that Igor has recently suffered and send our support to him and his family at this difficult time.

4:59Billy T on X pointing out, Dejan Kulicevski last played for Spurs three managers ago. The next hire will be the fourth manager since his injury. He never played for two of them. We're going to get Dan to the person who looks like he's coming in to take Tudor's place shortly. But in terms of the outgoing manager, had to happen, had to wait an appropriate amount of time following the bereavement. shouldn't have happened in the first place. Is that about sum it up? Yeah, I think that about sums it up. I think after the 3-0 defeat to Forrest last time out, his position was more or less untenable. I mean, Spurs didn't just lose to a relegation rival at home.

5:33They got thumped by a relegation rival at home. It was really hard to see him carrying on after that. Then you add in this family tragedy that he's had in his own personal life. He obviously went back to Croatia straight after the game, has had the funeral of his father Mario since then. So I think it's probably fair to say that Igor Tudor himself now has bigger concerns than Spurs, and it just made sense for everyone to make a change. He has been a disaster. He is not the biggest problem. He was not the biggest problem at Spurs. He didn't start the rot at Spurs, but he's accelerated it. I've just done another athletic podcast with James Horncastle, just to throw James under the bus on a second athletic podcast.

6:17he compared Tudor to Winston Wolfe when he joined Spurs in that he comes in and he quickly and efficiently kind of cleans up messes I'm trying to think of another kind of Tarantino character we can compare him to I could only really come up with Mr Blue in that he was a very brief part of a major disaster but quickly forgotten look yeah he came in with a mandate to make a quick impact and clearly he has not done that. So I think this is the only decision Spurs could really make. I guess there are a number of questions now, but one of them is, is it kind of too late to save the season? If you were playing the blame game, who you're pointing your finger at more than anybody else?

7:00Players, board, Tudor? Oh, the board, the hierarchy. I mean, the people in charge of the club would no doubt say, well, we inherited a mess from the previous decision makers, i.e. Daniel Levy and his inner circle. Obviously, there is a question as to whether Enoch, because I'm refusing to call them the Lewis family going forward, whether Enoch were kind of pulling the strings in the Levy era all along or whether it really was different people making decisions. That's kind of irrelevant. You know, the mess Spurs are in is because of the decision makers of the club, past and present. The biggest mistake I think they made was sitting on their hands for too long when it was clear that Thomas Frank wasn't working.

7:36You know, I knew from the start of November as a Spurs fan and kind of Spurs watcher that it just wasn't going to work. I think around about the time Spurs meekly lost to Chelsea, I said to people, you know, this guy is not a Spurs manager, Spurs have got to do something. That was certainly clear to me in November and to others. It was obvious in December, it was obvious in January, and February the 11th was too late to make that change. So they sat on their hands there. Perhaps if they'd have listened to Fabio Pratty and got Tudor in in November, you know, it would have been a different story for him and for Spurs.

8:06You know, he would have had more time and more breathing space to kind of work his way and make an impact, as he has done at previous clubs. So yeah, the ultimate responsibility lies with them. I do think, having said that, there's a degree of responsibility for the players, and obviously coaches past and present too. You have to say that this poor run of league form started under Ange Postacoglu and Daniel Levy. It did not start this season, Spurs were in free fall in the second half of last season, but that was masked by the Europa League win. where does he rank Duncan in terms of calamitous Premier League managerial appointments or can we not say that definitively until we know whether or not Tottenham are Premier League or Championship next season well it sort of reminds me a little bit of when Sam Allardyce went into Leeds the year they went down and he completely forgotten about Sam Allardyce going to Leeds until I read her how does Eager Tudor compare to other short tenures yeah and Allardyce came in in traditional confident style and said winning games that's what I do and then proceeded not to win games and it just feels like when you get to this stage of a season I mean there was once you know once upon a time a club having three managers in a season seemed outlandish you know Forrest onto their fourth and I think if you look at the bottom of the Premier League right now I mean it's a bizarre situation where everyone's kind of managed everyone down there they're all in a sort of whatsapp group going you know who's got training this week we'll do that team yeah so I think I mean what is interesting is who spurs the point now because you know with with what is it seven games to go it's um there's a lot of pressure and and you know we know that different managers can can start differently and and you know if they go for De Zerbi as as we're led to believe it's going to happen whether he can kind of change stuff quickly enough is a big question great news for Les Reid who for a very long time was only famous for having had the the shortest Premier League managerial tenure and having not really done anything else in Premier League history prior to that.

10:07I know he hasn't lost it to Igor Tudy, lost it to Sam Allardyce, but at least he can, you know, now perhaps finally move on. Les Miserables, as he was magnificently dubbed. On Christmas Eve. On Christmas Eve as well. I mean, I was at the game on the 23rd, the Carabao Cup. Well, it wasn't Carabao in those days, but quarterfinal, Wickham beat, League 2 Wickham at the time beat charlton and that was that was enough the axe fell this is slightly straying into he's 27 until he's 28 territory but there is some debate about how 43 or 44 the days you do you count the day he was appointed and the day he was sacked which in my mind you do but then the argument is if someone was appointed yesterday and sacked today that's one day but my view is that that's the only circumstance where that works and even if you're appointed monday and you're sacked wednesday you've done three days so there is some contention but it doesn't change the fact i think poster coglue now has the shortest reign or is it still allardyce still allardyce well stellini but he's not a permanent so he was yeah i think he was into he'd be allardyce by a day but i mean let's be honest none of them are coming out another one in there yeah none of them are coming out with um with a badge of honor not particularly no we'll get on to deserve you shortly last word on Tudor to you though Daniel how damaged is his reputation by this or can he

11:29Matt Davies-Adams: just sort of say spurs in it I mean I suspect that's exactly what he will say uh when he has meetings with clubs who are not Tottenham Hotspur uh I mean I thought it was dreadful and a dreadful idea from the start I just I didn't get it I know he had this firefighting reputation but to me that firefighter reputation always or always traditionally felt country dependent right so you You weren't just a firefighter, you were a Serie A firefighter or you were a Premier League firefighter. And that's how it's always been. And I think that's probably judged on this reign and others, how it will always stay.

12:03Matt Davies-Adams: So I guess he'll go back to Serie A or maybe back to Ligue 1 and try again. He won't be damaged long-term because whatever happens at Spurs, you know, Dan's just said it, everybody knows it's the hierarchy that is to blame. It's not his fault that he was offered a job that he took. he did do it really badly and he did do some really strange things in terms of tactics and in terms of like PR, you know, how he talked about the club. But yeah, I mean, it goes way beyond him. And yeah, he'll probably go back to Serie A and he'll be managing Lazio again or someone like that soon. Yeah, certainly no tears shed in the Kinski house goal, you wouldn't have thought.

12:43So the latest reporting as we have it on The Athletic from Jack Pitbrook on Monday lunchtime is that Roberto De Zerbe is likely to be appointed as the third head coach of the season. They've offered him a long-term contract, significant financial package. You're making one of the best paid managers in the Premier League. Several Spurs supporters groups have voiced their reservations. Danny Boyce also got doubts about De Zerbe. Yeah, I think it's a high-risk appointment and probably not worth it, ultimately. So I'm always wary of kind of ascribing a view to a fan base as a whole there will be a lot of different views and opinions on deservey within the spurs fan base of course there will but what we know is these three groups so um spurs lgbtq plus supporters association the women's supporters association and spurs reach i think are their kind of um ethnicity and cultural heritage official supporters association have all come out and said no to deservey and i kind of urge the club not to pursue him as a manager so we know that and putting aside what mason greenwood did and putting aside what the zerby has said or has not said or has done and has not done over mason greenwood spurs have a major disconnect between fan base and club it's never been greater in my adult lifetime and it is a major problem and they're not going to move forward as an organization they're not going to be successful unless everyone's on the same page and putting in the same direction and there's kind of alignment and a clear direction of travel.

14:17And if Spurs appoint Deserby, who is by no means a sure thing, by the way, he's not guaranteed to save them from relegation, they are going to immediately alienate a section of the fan base. It may be a small minority, but it's still going to be a section of the fan base who are never going to accept this guy. And I think that's a major problem. And I think for that reason, they shouldn't do it. Now, there's no manager, arguably, apart from possibly Pochettino, who would unite everyone in the fan base. But let's say if it was Oliver Glasner or Silva or iraola for the sake of argument there would be some supporters who would say you know i don't like this guy's personality he's too combustible or i don't like his tactics he doesn't play great football whatever but there wouldn't be supporters who are fundamentally opposed to those guys on a kind of values level and say that i will never accept him and there will be supporters who will be thinking that about deserve because of what he said or they perceive you know positions he's taken and i just don't think i mean frankly i just don't have the energy for it like suppose i've had a succession of culture war managers.

15:15Ange was a culture war manager, massively split the fan base down the middle. Mourinho was a culture war manager. Conte was a culture war manager. They haven't had unity in their fan base behind a manager really since Pochettino. And as a Spurs fan, I'm just kind of exhausted by it. I think a lot of fans are just exhausted by it. And I don't think they should do it again. And it's kind of baffling that the hierarchy haven't learned this lesson. Adding into the fact that De Zerbi's tactics, while exciting are kind of pretty prescriptive aren't they and there's no guarantee that he's going to come in and you know teach this broken and fragile group of players to kind of bait the press or you know whatever it is he's going to try and tell them to do and get results in seven games so I think this is extremely risky and frankly misguided pursuit and yeah as we sit here now we don't know if they're going to be able to persuade them persuade him sorry to take the job and I kind of rather hope they don't to be honest.

16:10How is he viewed in France at the start and end of that spell at Marseille Tom because obviously that's his most recent posting? I mean De Zerbi's Marseille spell went exactly as I think everyone predicted it would in that he comes in and has a full pre-season to work with the squad loads of new signings arrive at the same time very quickly gets Marseille playing really exciting football, gets the fans on board. And first season, I mean, a multitude of ups and downs and mini crises and genuine crises. But the season culminates in him qualifying OM for the Champions League automatically, which was, you know, the main target that he had.

16:57And then inevitably in the second season, everything just blows up. and we know the double-edged sword that a deserving managerial tenure brings. Chances are the football will be really exciting. The players will buy into it. The fans will find it exciting. But he has a way of just grinding people down, grinds the players down, creates this atmosphere of permanent tension. And what didn't help Marseille was that he was surrounded by senior figures who were similarly emotional and reacted to setbacks, sometimes even monumentally minor setbacks in very emotional fashion. So you have this constant feeling of chaos, this sense that at any given moment, the whole thing could just explode.

17:45And inevitably, it did. I think that the one thing that you would say in De Zerbi's favour, looking back at his time at Marseille, is that there was this constant churn of players, constant turnover, incomings, outgoings, a player comes in, it's player of the month for like, you know, less than a month. And the next thing, just you never see him again. And then he leaves, you know, a couple of months later. So he was constantly building on shifting sands. So you had this, you know, this just permanent instability, which was exacerbated by the fact you had this extremely emotional coach. I think the problem with regard to Spurs at the moment, one of the many problems with the Ricard to Spurs at the moment is that the Spurs job right now is the ultimate poison chalice.

18:32I think no matter who you are as a coach, the thought of coming in and having seven games to turn this oil tanker that is heading straight for the rocks around and knowing that the reputational damage that could be caused if you don't succeed is something that will weigh extremely heavily. There are coaches who could come in in the summer and given a full pre-season, will be able to begin to turn things around. But I think the chances are they're not going to want to accept the job now in the hope that they're still a Premier League club. What's what he wants, right? He wants the job in the summer, provided Spurs stay up.

19:09And he's saying... Which you can understand. Yeah, yeah, which you can understand. Yeah, he doesn't want to know that he's got to go to Lincoln. Precisely. And Spurs have made this mistake before. Conte didn't want the job in the summer of 2021. he'd just left Inter he wanted a break he wasn't really that I don't think he saw Spurs as a good fit for him sort of culturally and Nuno came in was a disaster Spurs sacked him and then went back to Conte with an improved offer Conte was a bit bored I think by that point thinking oh you know I could do something to do and they kind of persuaded him to take the job and we know how that ended and they're kind of making the same mistake again it's like this guy doesn't want the job right now but you're presumably hoping to make him an offer but he cannot refuse.

19:52And that's bringing in a coach who is immediately kind of starting on the back foot in an environment he doesn't really want to be in. And you look at Spurs fixtures as well. I mean, first game would be Sunderland away. Not easy. No. Brighton at home then, which narrative drifting off that. And then Wolves away. And we know Wolves are one of the best teams in the Premier League right now. And Spurs always leads at Wolves. Yeah. Ouch. Daniel, how are Spurs relegation rivals likely to view this appointment, if indeed it does happen?

20:22Matt Davies-Adams: Intrinsically, if they take the fans out of this for the moment, and Dan's absolutely right to firstly talk about those fan groups, it's completely relevant. But putting that to the one side, I think if Spurs get what they feel they want, that's probably bad news for everybody else. The clanging irony to that is Spurs getting what they want has only led to Spurs getting worse and worse over a period of about half a decade. So, you know, that's also relevant. I think the Zerbi thing is fascinating, right? Because Lewis Dunk did an interview where about a year after he'd joined Brighton, after Zerbi had joined Brighton, where he said the first few weeks were incredibly baffling.

21:07Matt Davies-Adams: We just couldn't cope. We didn't really know what to do in training. It was like really hard to get to grips with this football, but look at us now. And yet, obviously, Zerbi's first few weeks are going to be the most defining weeks in his job unless something extraordinary happens. If they go down, he has a decision to make about whether he stays. And at that point, he has four years, nine months left on his contract. As we're told, it'll be a five-year deal, which is extraordinary. So it's just, it's kind of emblematic of everything that Spurs are now, that a five-year deal would be basically determined success or failure within seven games.

21:45Matt Davies-Adams: and that they are in this position at all. I honestly thought that they would turn to Ryan Mason for the third interim spell just to try and limp themselves over the line. And I think if they'd have done that rather than Tudor, I think they would have probably stayed up. I think that would have been enough goodwill within the squad that maybe that would have, the kind of arm around the shoulder, I've been here before, I'd done this before, might have worked. But they obviously felt that that was too much of a risk. But then, you know, financially, it deserves a huge risk. if you look at the money that he's reported been offered and the length of the deal.

22:18Matt Davies-Adams: So yeah, if I'm West Ham and Forrest, none of us know what to think, right? We're all just kind of desperately trying to pretend the other clubs don't exist and focus on our own form. I am glad that as a Forrest fan that we played Igor Tudor's Tottenham rather than new manager X's Tottenham because that felt like something awful. You know, it never felt that that was going to work. So that would be my only feeling. Well it's looking like it'll be deserved it's definitely not going to be Jermaine Defoe he's taken the woking job the chance to work with the sons of Yusuf Yaskalainen and Darren Kaski and Jermaine Pennant's nephew impossible to resist for any of us but particularly for Defoe it turns out he used to play for England which is going to lead us nicely to our international chat that comes next Dan thank you so much we'll catch up with you again soon Pleasure thanks guys

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25:22This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli Kay and the very best football writers around. And the final change is going to see Ben White come on.

25:44Matt Davies-Adams: And that reaction was, I think, predictable. Palmer trying to make that happen and they have made that happen. Tucked in by Ben White at the far post. and Ben White collides with Vinyas. Vinyas sees it over the bar. The referee is being appealed for a penalty, a late penalty for Valverde. He's a little things and he does. It's not the first time he's been a Manchester City goalkeeper this season. One all between England and Uruguay at Wembley on Friday. A friendly at the business centre of the domestic season in front of a disinterested crowd. Let's test our panel's mettle then by seeing how much content we can spin out of this.

26:21If nothing else, Daniel, it was an eventful evening for Ben White. Yeah, it was.

26:26Matt Davies-Adams: provided a little drip of narrative that it's fair to say the evening needed after 78 minutes. I mean, it was really desperate. It was boring. It was sort of sold as, oh, Marcus Rashford's at least done himself a favour. And I thought, yeah, that's just because he beat one guy once on the left wing, isn't it? It was that sort of night. It was, you know, without wanting to kind of dig up old graves, which I will now proceed to do, there was this sense, I think, that when England got a new manager everything was suddenly going to be exciting and everyone's going to look forward to the home qualifiers and the friendlies were going to be pop bang and whistle and other than some pretty physical challenges by the Uruguayan players it just had none of that there was no interest in the game whatsoever it was badly timed it was a bit odd to sure just pacey picking the reserve squad and saying someone show me what you can do because like the reality is is that those players will show what they can do when they're surrounded by the first team, not when they're surrounded by each other.

27:24Matt Davies-Adams: So it just felt a really kind of compartmentalised, deconstructed football match, which was pretty horrible to watch for everybody involved. Yeah, I mean, there's strong unbroke-up energy to this international break with Uruguay and Japan, or Japan as was contractually obliged to pronounce it. Yeah, we didn't learn anything. Players would be better for the couple of weeks holiday. But these, yeah, Daniel said it there. I mean, we're not learning anything at this point. We're just trying to avoid injuries. And to be fair, Uruguay didn't help on that front. So if Phil Foden's learned how to dodge Matrix-style challenges at the World Cup from that, then maybe something came out of the game.

28:06It's been an interesting window in the sense that we're not used to these inter-confederational friendlies anymore because the gaps in the international calendar that used to exist for friendly games are now taken up by the Nations League. And so I think as a consequence, we've forgotten quite how desperately dismal an awful lot of these matches are. I've been to more meaningless England home games than I can care to remember. And I sat down and watched this. As an England fan? Not as an England fan. Obviously, Duncan, thank you for checking. Not taking us under your wing now for the summer? No chance.

28:40You'd be well down the list, believe you me. But I put this on. I was like, okay, it's England friendly. Uruguay are interesting, you know. see what it's like and within like five minutes just you get lulled into that england home friendly routine the disinterested crowds that the air the paper airplanes start flying the paper airplane thing is it's like the new mexican wave but it's specific to wembley but i mean you say crowd but i mean 80 000 people turned up for it and i can remember the 90s when these sort of games and we're going to england nigeria before uh i think 1995 so in that period where England had no competitive games because they're, you know, hosts of the Euros.

29:18And I think there were like 32 ,000 people there and a similarly dreary 1-1 draw, if I recall correctly. And so, yeah, I mean, financially, fair play to the FA because they've managed, they keep managing to convince a lot of people to come and see these games, but I'm not entirely sure why or how. They managed to convince a lot of people. England struggling to convince players to stick around. Eight have left the camp. Ramsdale, Tamori, Calvert-Lewin, Stones, Wharton, Madweke, Rice, Saka, is that eight? Daniel, out of all of those, Adam Wharton may be the most significant. He just always seems to be injured in and around international duty.

29:55And James Garner did all right on Friday, which might concern Wharton.

30:00Matt Davies-Adams: Yeah, absolutely. The kind of resonating quote from England-Uruguay was Thomas Tuchel describing Garner as the kind of mini Valverde, which is a whacking great compliment. and it's probably evidence that he has jumped slightly up the queue. I don't know if it'll be ahead of Kobe Mainu yet. I think it probably might be ahead of Adam Wharton now just because of availability. And Wharton's availability has been an issue at club level this season as well. I think Anderson and Rice are the two starters and we may well get a chance to see Anderson alongside Mainu, I suppose, against Japan with Garner coming on possibly to kind of show what he can do next to him.

30:41Matt Davies-Adams: Rice is obviously a shoo-in to start. I think Anderson's a shoo-in to start. But Garner is really useful for international managers because that versatility of position is huge. He's played at full-back for Everton. He's played at central midfield. He's played a slightly advanced role in that central midfield if he's needed to. So he is multi-positional and international managers love that. And it sounds like Thomas Tuchel is making him kind of one of his teacher's pets. Yeah, on those withdrawals, Tuchel, going down the I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed route, which always hurts more, doesn't it?

31:12It's Japan. Japan on Tuesday. A Japan side who beat Scotland 1-0 at Hampden on Saturday. A result which was greeted by boos from the Scotland fans at the final whistle. Steve Clarke, animated as ever, said it was disappointing. It's just the modern way. It seems to be if you lose a game, you get booed. You just have to deal with it. He's going to be hoping for some big Dickinson energy when his side take on Ivory Coast at Everton's newest stadium on Tuesday. Always like it, Duncan, when you get a random venue for an international friendly. Yeah, I mean, I think Loftus Road is a strong contender.

31:45Craven Cottage, Latterny, perhaps. Craven Cottage as well. Yeah, MK Dons, we don't like that they exist in some respects, but they do often provide a home for internationals. But yeah, I mean, Scotland v Ivory Coast in Liverpool, it's a good combo. And yeah, I think it's a bit harsh getting booed. Japan are quite good, aren't they? Good kit, at least. So what does Scotland expect? Well, we'll see how they get on Tuesday night and whether it's greeted by cheers or boos. Elsewhere in friendly news, Senegal peredited their AFCON trophy ahead of their friendly against Peru, despite being stripped of the title.

32:19Tom, are you enjoying rubbernecking on all this silliness? I mean, it is grimly fascinating. And I was going to say that everyone involved is basically just holding their breath until the Court of Arbitration for Sport rules on who has actually won. the africa cup of nations but i don't think that will make all that much difference anyway like the fact that it was stripped from senegal so long after the end of the tournament was farcical in and of itself and any subsequent decisions are only just going to add to the farce i think everyone who you know witnessed what happened anyone who paid any attention to the tournament will remember that you know senegal won it on the pitch that they got the trophy that they had the party um And even if Morocco do go down in the history books as African champions, it will feel hollow for them.

33:12I think it will feel hollow for everyone else. And in the meantime, yeah, you just get these extraordinary scenes like the ones that we saw prior to the game against Peru, when a country celebrates a success that theoretically never actually happened. the CAF general secretary has resigned amid the controversy trying to cover it as retiring sort of tiring talking about it Duncan in a way isn't it I think we just should we just say that Senegal won it and just ignore the last couple of weeks of discourse well I've got a lot of respect for Swiss-based bureaucrats so uh you know as a cycling fan I've got plenty of experience of Cass stepping in to decide stuff.

33:55But yeah, I mean, clearly Senegal are the people's winners. There were some fun scorelines elsewhere, friendly-wise. Seven-goal thriller between Switzerland and Germany. 4-3 it finished to Germany. Great goal from Florian Wierz in that one. Austria beat Nigeria 5-1. Kani Chukwameka scored on his debut after switching his international allegiances. It says, and France beat Colombia 3-1 in Maryland on Sunday afternoon. Desiree Douay with a brace. Anything much to learn, Tom, French-wise from wins against Colombia and Brazil? The main takeaway from this international break is that France are very good.

34:34I think we knew that already, but they put out a completely different starting 11 against Colombia compared to the one that started the game against Brazil and in some ways looked even better. I think a big challenge for Didier Deschamps in the build-up to the World Cup has been to make France a proper attacking team, which we know is not really one of his strong points. Because if you go back to Euro 2024, yes, France reached the semi-finals, but they did it having scored one solitary goal in open play and having relied an awful lot on penalties and own goals. and we know that the talent pool that France are able to pick on in attacking areas is terrifyingly deep and that made what happened at the last Euros even more puzzling.

35:22Now when you watch France, they look a lot more like the sum of their parts and the key decision that Deschamps has made has been to shift the system to a 4-2-3-1 to put Michael Alisse at number 10. It'll be Kylian Mbappé up top. unsurprisingly Usman Dembele on the right and now there's a bit of a there's a bit of a battle for the one remaining slot on the left wing Hugo Eketike was really impressive against Brazil scored a beautifully taken goal, dovetailed very nicely with Mbappe so he is staking a very strong claim to be a starter but Desiree Dwe is another candidate, Marcus Turam could start there as well Dwe scored a couple of goals against Colombia last night and he was lining up alongside Ryan Schiacke who was the understudy to Michael Alisse.

36:10Magna Zacriouche, who was the understudy to Dembele, who was brilliant, and with Touran up top. And Touran was brilliant, scored the second goal, set up the third. And France still look a little bit flaky defensively, but they look much more menacing in attack, in a way that, you know, when you look at the names on paper, they should be. The only other thing to add is that Maxence Lacroix of Crystal Palace made his first international start, but having been brought into the squad after William Saliba dropped out through injury, another Arsenal withdrawal, and he was extremely good, got an 8 out of 10 from the keep, which is pretty much as good as it gets.

36:47And the feeling is that he, you know, if there are any withdrawals higher up the centre-back food chain, he's now best placed to profit from that. Yeah, I watched the Brazil-France game and Tom's right, they did look very good. Michael Alisse looked ridiculously good. so you know the former Reading winger but the other thing that was really noticeable from that game was the cooling breaks the sponsored cooling breaks was my first experience and I mean slightly hilarious that it was about 11 degrees Celsius so not sure much cooling was required but it was yeah they were sponsored by different things in each half which and it really did break up the game and they didn't really add any time on for it as well so the first half had I think 2 or 3 minutes of stoppage time and the cooling break took at least three or four minutes.

37:35It's like a classic sort of like FIFA facilitated modern football thing. A s*** idea that no one asks for, that no one wants, that makes the thing that you're watching, whether you're a fan or a TV spectator, worse, that is totally pointless and yet it's just been introduced without anyone getting a say and will probably end up just being introduced to all football for the rest of time. So, you know, thanks, Infantino. We're going to blame him even if he's, I mean, you know, ultimately the book stops there, doesn't it? Let's face it. Well, while we're steakside and talking friendlies, why don't we check in with the USMNT next.

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40:24Matt Davies-Adams: you're listening to the totally football show now with you four times a week keep up to date with us on insta and enjoy us in glorious technicolor on youtube at the totally show

40:44he's got a second Belgium have a fifth here in Atlanta US MNT time Felipe Cardenas joins us from Atlanta Felipe Maurizio Pochettino's team beaten 5-2 by Belgium on Saturday evening or were they? if you watched it with the sound off you might have struggled to make out which team was which. That kick clash was quite something. It was. And it was funny because when the teams came out in their anthem kits, their anthem jackets, you know, it just looked like, you know, we're getting ready for a traditional friendly match, right? And as soon as they ripped off their anthem jackets and ran onto the pitch, you know, some of them sprinting to get in form before the kickoff, everyone in the press box looked at each other like, what is going on?

41:31Like these, there's a complete clash here. And so that became the story of the first half and it completely overshadowed probably the best first half of football for the U.S. men's national team under Mauricio Pochettino. It was crazy that that became such a much more of a story than the football. But yes, you step back and you realize that sometimes even adults can make mistakes that kids don't make these days. Everyone takes their second kit to their match, even in junior football. So yeah, that was a bit of an embarrassment for both federations. So if the first half was good then, what on earth happened after halftime?

42:10And was it a bit of a reality check for Maurizio Pochettino's team? It was. And Puchetino mentioned he used that exact phrase in his postgame comments to the press. It was a reality check. You know, I think for him, you know, having said before the game in a separate interview that the goal for this U.S. team was to get to the semifinal of the next World Cup and then being completely, you know, dominated in that second half in front of a very partisan home crowd in Atlanta, you know, a market here that really wants to embrace the world. the U.S. national team. It was a very, very deflating loss.

42:49And I think what happened, you know, the first half was very good for Mauricio Puchesino. I think tactically, he understood that the Belgians were going to play with a very high line, and they did. And that allowed Anthony Robinson and Timothy Weah, both playing as both left back and right back, to just streak up the field. And it really was working. And it led to the corner kick that But then Wesson McKinney converted to give the U.S. 1-0 advantage. But it didn't take very long for the Belgians to equalize. And then the second half, the tactics, I think Belgium, you know, Rudy Garcia, the manager, really adjusted.

43:23He went into a mid-block. And then he just told his dynamic winger, Dukou, to just go out there and harass Timothy Weah 1v1. And he did it relentlessly. and I think tactically and then from an individual quality perspective you really did see the disparity there between the two sides. Semi-finals might be optimistic what do you think would be a realistic placing for the USA at the World Cup? I think it's more of a quarterfinal berth you know this team is talented but they're not what I think some of the truly diehard US fans believe they are you know a team of players that yes are are now fully um you know they played a world cup they are mostly european based you know that gets this fan base really excited but you forget what a world cup is all about it's faster it's more athletic these teams are just as good um from an individual perspective if not better from some of the best players that the u.s has you know man for man.

44:25And now with this 5-2 loss in Portugal coming up, there's a lot of doubt about this. Can this team really make a run? I think the World Cup is a totally different animal for a host nation. And I really do think that that's going to be an advantage for the U.S. But it's not going to be just a walkthrough in this group stage. I still think that Paraguay opener in Los Angeles is really tricky. And obviously, we're waiting to see if, you know, who gets through as that fourth team, whether it looks like it could be Turkey, they seem the stronger side in this playoff, but that'll complicate things for the US as well.

45:03All right, before we let you go, then, Felipe, just tell us, how does the thermometer read in terms of World Cup fever in the US just now? It's been a fairly tumultuous buildup in various regards. Are people generally excited for the tournament starting i think this this match window is has turned the volume up a little bit on on what is coming this summer but you know i had a conversation yesterday with somebody uh you know a producer at another outlet you know she asked me the same thing and i said i think the american market is always slow to embrace an international event even one that they're going to host and right now that's still what it feels like i think from a football perspective yes this FIFA window makes it feel more important.

45:46You know, there's a lot more international press here covering the United States. And obviously Belgium and Portugal just sort of ups the ante in terms of opposition. But it doesn't feel like the country's buzzing yet for this World Cup. It will feel like that, I believe, you know, come end of May and June, because this country, that's what this country does. As soon as the lights turn on and they're the brightest, they really do deliver in terms of organization. but right now it just feels like this US team and when you lose like this it does like I said is a bit deflating but the US market is just waiting for June I think for this World Cup Yeah it'll come around pretty quickly I'm sure Felipe thank you so much for joining us today we'll catch up with you again soon Anytime have a great one take care This is the Totally Football Show part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network Alright then Tuesday who's going to be punching their metaphorical ticket to the World Cup and who's going to be making alternative plans for the summer.

46:42Headline act for many, European-wise, Bosnia and Herzegovina versus Italy, both fresh from breaking home nation hearts, eliminating Wales and Northern Ireland as they did on Thursday. Are you okay to talk about this now, Tom? Yeah, go on. Who do you make as favourites? I mean, I think it has to be Italy. I think the fact that they won their semi-final in such convincing fashion suggests that they are are in the midst of putting their World Cup qualification playoff ghosts to rest. But then again, the fact that it's in Bosnia, that you'll have all the usual difficulties at that kind of fixture, tends to throw up, hostile crowd, etc., etc.

47:30And Bosnia were very solid against Wales. They were quite happy not to have the ball. They sat pretty deep in a 4-4-2 structure defensively, looked for opportunities on the counter-attack, didn't create a huge amount of chances, but ended up getting the one goal that they needed through Edin Dzeko right at the end to take it to extra time and then held their nerve in the penalty shootout. So they're a pretty seasoned unit. I suspect Italy will have too much for them, but I think it will probably be pretty cagey. What do you reckon Daniel? The home advantage may be nullified by their respective exploits Italy in third year and Bosnia having gone all the way to extra time or is there too much time between the games for that to be a thing?

48:14Matt Davies-Adams: Yeah I actually think home advantage is really big in these four games particularly for Bosnia and for Kosovo a kind of fevered atmosphere I think is going to really help like with all these games or particularly with this one but particularly the bosnia italy won the first goal feels absolutely massive i know that bosnia tried against wales and scored late if they score first against italy i can just see italy's kind of heads going i didn't think they were great against northern ireland they did enough but first half they were really poor it's just that northern ireland didn't really have enough to trouble them if bosnia have got enough to trouble them then yeah maybe and edin dzeko is obviously uh like still this spearhead 40 years old ridiculous that he's still going and doing what he does so there is a very good kind of really nice narrative there I suspect it'll go through but I think maybe Italy on pens or Italy an extra time maybe obviously the Italian players celebrated Bosnia winning the shootout against Wales so they obviously fancy it but you know can you pin a video on a wall but maybe that will happen well what does the World Cup need more a 40 year old palish striker struggling in the in the son of the usa or the italian national anthem speaking as a 40-ish something guy who's probably going to struggle a bit in the sun i quite like the thought that there's going to be someone doing that out on the pitch i think that would make us all feel good about ourselves i mean i you know i think from a neutral perspective you this you know haha italy thing has probably gone on long enough we could do with them being back in the tournament but you know got to go and prove you prove you're good enough you surely do uh meanwhile over in path d czech republic or Shakir, depending on your preference, versus plain old Denmark.

49:56They're unbeaten against the Czechs since a 3-0 defeat at Euro 2004. They're great at home as well, unbeaten in 17 matches. And actually, Duncan, this is a bit like the Italy-Bosnia game in that you look at it and think, if you get through this game, you might have a decent chance of having a good run in the World Cup. They're going to a group containing Mexico, South Africa and South Korea. South Korea obviously got a bit of World Cup heritage and Mexico as a host. but still you might fancy Czech Republic or Denmark to be able to squeeze past and into the knockouts. Yeah, particularly with potentially three teams going through from the group as well.

50:33So yeah, I mean Czech Republic took a while to wake up, didn't they, against Ireland. But as you say, their home record's really good. But I mean Denmark should have won their group. They should be there already. So I think this is the hardest one to call of the four and possibly could be the most entertaining game as well. So both these teams would expect to be at World Cup. So it's not like a sort of Bosnia or Kosovo or Wales situation where, you know, it's just a dream. It's very much like we should be there. This is their last chance. All the UEFA ones are pretty hard to call, right? That's sort of the point, I guess.

51:11Yeah. And I think, you know, there's lots to dislike about the expansion of the World Cup. The fact that it's now a 48 team tournament, which, you know, let's face it, will only serve to dilute the quality and leave us waiting for high quality matchups longer than you would have to wait ordinarily at a World Cup. But the fact that the qualifying process has still thrown up these very evenly matched playoff ties between lots of really decent teams suggests that the balance perhaps hasn't been completely skewed by the fact that it's an expanded tournament. Sweden against Poland in path B more personally the magnificently monikered Strawberry Arena imagine telling a West Ham fan back in September that Graham Potter would be 90 minutes away in the World Cup it really is a funny old game Potter, Sweden stank out qualifying they're now just a pole vaulting away from the finals though Daniel Jokerez and Lewandowski both scored in the semis how reductive am I being by asking if this is just about which of the pair packs they're shooting boots?

52:16Matt Davies-Adams: having watched Poland over the last 15 to 20 years at major tournaments it's pretty much always been about Lewandowski and I suspect that will continue Giocres scored a hat-trick in the semi-final but in general you know I watched that game and Sweden looked really really good I don't know what exactly what parts has changed but speaking to someone after the game they said like the whole mood of the team just feels completely different that qualifying group was such a disaster that it ending and kind of still leaving them with a shot at something because of the Nations League they'd sort of completely turned focus on these playoffs now and they looked absolutely ready for it they look like they've been preparing it for it for for a long time I think they'll beat Poland Poland just yeah they all just look a bit one-dimensional when I've seen them as I say for a long long time and yeah I think Sweden will do this and fair play to Graham Potter you know it was an interesting job to take he took it on a really short-term basis and then they offered him longer if you take sweden to the world cup they have got the tools within that squad particularly in the attacking sense if alexander is that gets himself fit that they you know it's quite easy to see them they're going to be like the the turkey aren't they they're going to be like the dark horse that everybody calls a dark horse until they eventually do nothing and everyone tries to forget that they predicted they were a dark horse rich usa heritage at world cups as Well, Sweden, of course, Duncan, everything was better in the old days.

53:40And third place in 1994. Many, many happy memories of your Brolins, your Darlins, etc. Yeah, what an era that was. I preferred their performance in USA 94 to Euro 92. Where, yeah, upset my young mind. Lol. The final UEFA playoff is Kosovo against Turkey. Turkey can reach the finals for just the third time. or Kosovo could mark a decade of being a FIFA force by making it onto the grandest stage of them all for the first time ever. Again, sort of difficult to pick a favourite for this one. Is there a team you'd rather see in Canada, the USA and Mexico? Kosovo bring the intrigue, Turkey bring the noise?

54:24I mean, Kosovo is a great story. Like you say, 10 years after becoming an independent football nation and they go into this off the back of that incredible, 4-3 win over Slovakia away from home in their player semi-final but there's so much talent in this Turkey team you look at the players in that line-up Arda Gouler, Keren Yildiz you feel like they could potentially do something really special and I think if they do qualify they will be right in the mix for dark horse chat as they as they always are and it wouldn't be a major tournament if people weren't tipping Turkey to be the dark horses, only for them to be immediately eliminated.

55:09So that's another reason to get behind the Turks. Although for Kosovo, obviously they're going to group with USA and Australia. They've got good dark horse potential as well. Yeah, but also I imagine Americans and Australians would pronounce Kosovo in quite a different way. Kosovo. So I'm looking forward to that if it happens. You got a dark horse, Daniel, as it stands at the moment, that's not in the usual pack?

55:35Matt Davies-Adams: dark horse world cup that feels like putting me on the spot uh i will say my dark horse is rolls a dice and picks out columbia nice yeah no i would i mean i have to say like in preparation for the podcast i was just like looking through some world cup stuff i can't believe that france are longer odds to win it than england i mean having not just because of recency bias in the past week but also most of my life you look at the the two attacks that i mean tom knows it but the two attacks that france picked the other night in different halves it just blew my mind that they're not favorites for the world cup england started a dominic and replaced him with a dominic so i don't know what you're talking about fair enough france don't stand down france no longer have a dominic so yeah maybe they should be heavier if they uh intercontinental playoffs Bolivia against Iraq Iraq have only ever been to the World Cup once Bolivia looking to reach their fourth Also, Jamaica against DR Congo on Tuesday night I'm confused about this Duncan Why didn't Steve McLaren stick around for this?

56:39I thought he left because he thought they had no chance Is he that high on DR Congo and that low on the reggae boys? Yeah, it's slightly confusing but I think he just fell on his sword maybe for the greater good Not on his umbrella. Well, in many ways, he's become a human umbrella for Jamaica's chances of reaching the World Cup. Come at one with the device. Beautiful. We'll round up, of course, everything that happens in those various World Cup playoffs on Thursday's show when Jim Boat will be back in the hot seat. And now they're nearly done, elsewhere, a new survey has revealed that three out of four fans want VAR to be scrapped.

57:2092 % of fans surveyed agreed that VAR has removed the spontaneous joy of goal celebrations. 82 % of them strongly agreed. 85 % of match-going fans strongly disagreed that VAR decisions are generally resolved in a reasonable amount of time. Daniel, big element of tell us something we didn't know about this, and it's going to matter not, is it, in the grand scheme of things. It's here to stay.

57:44Matt Davies-Adams: No, yeah, Pandora's box, VAR is, from the moment it started, it was only ever going to grow and if we can stop its spread then we could consider that a minor success in a sea of defeats and yeah I mean I want to speak to the eight percent of people who don't think it affects their celebration of a goal when it's there like I want your confidence I want your lack of self-doubt like these are people who celebrate goals without looking towards the linesman back in the day to see if there's an offside flag and I am jealous of them but it is I mean, I do suspect the survey of, you know, if you're someone who answers that survey about VAR, you're probably more likely to err on the side of being angry than answering it saying, yeah, I actually think it's all right.

58:30Matt Davies-Adams: But it's clear, you know, you just have to take a sample size of everyone you've ever met and take 10 of them who like football and at least eight or nine of them will say, I don't like VAR. I didn't want it introduced and I don't want it to grow. As I say, if we avoid the corners and the second yellows and all that stuff, then we should consider that a small victory. Harking back to France-Colombia, it feels like a great opportunity for FIFA to get a sponsored VAR break or two into the World Cup, doesn't it? I mean, I'm sure those discussions are taking place as we speak. But yeah, I agree with Daniel.

59:03I agree with the sizable majority of respondents to that survey. the difficulty now of course if we were to bin VAR which we obviously should do we'd be getting the genie back in the bottle and there are certain things that I think I think even fans who are desperate to bin it off would would struggle with the reversion to a pre-VAR age because you know there are things we've got used I mean offsides for example offsides are now more accurate than they've ever been because the decision is being made by a robot rather than a human being if you could make that more if you could make that quicker if you could speed it up then I'd be in favor of retaining that but yeah i think the for me the biggest tragedy of var has been the the fact that you know goals no longer have any sense of permanence it used to be the ultimate full stop to every sentence in every football match the goal is that the ball is in the back of the net and if the flag doesn't go if the flag doesn't go up and the referee doesn't blow his whistle the goal just stands whereas now but the flag does go up yeah that's what i'm saying you you would have a period of a few seconds grace during which time a goal could potentially be ruled out but invariably wasn't.

1:00:08Whereas these days goals, perfectly valid looking goals, get ruled out quite routinely because something has happened that no one has noticed 15, 20, 30 seconds before the ball ended up in the back of the net and it is very banned. Counter-argument. Counter-argument. You sometimes get to celebrate girls twice. You never used to be able to get... That's not a counter-argument. You never used to be able to do that. That doesn't make up for the fact that you didn't celebrate it Oh, they're just checking it but I think it's probably going to be fine. They're checking it. Yeah, they're still checking it.

1:00:37Oh, it is fine. Yeah, we'll celebrate again. That's not a reason to keep that extra joy.

1:00:41Matt Davies-Adams: That's like, Duncan, that's like starting Christmas dinner, the best meal of the year, then going out for a walk for an hour, coming back, eating the rest of it cold and being like, two Christmas dinners, winner. It's not really like that, is it? Not really, no. One place they don't have VAR is the WSL. Big weekend there. Man City moved a step closer to clinching the title. They beat Man United 3-0 at Old Trafford. And Arsenal, also the proud owner of Bragging Rights, they hammered Spurs 5-2 at the Emirates. That was on Saturday, as was Liverpool's derby victory. They won 3-2 at Everton. That was a 4-3 thriller at Kingsmeadow on Sunday afternoon.

1:01:18And a bit of history as well. Donkey needle like this between Chelsea and Aston Villa. The first game in the WSL to have both teams score three times in the first half. There was only one goal in the second. Schurken Nuskan curling in the winner in the 82nd minute. And that is just about that for today. Thank you to Dan and Felipe for joining us earlier, to Lucy and to Jake in the booth and producer Xavi, and of course, Tom, Daniel and Duncan. Jimbo back on Thursday. For now, though, it's ta-ta.

1:02:04Matt Davies-Adams: in all the usual places. We're also at The Totally Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

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