Is time up for Tudor at Tottenham after Kinsky chaos in Madrid?

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1:57Duncan Alexander: although Newcastle did almost beat Barcelona. We'll talk about Tuesday's games, including Atalanta's 6-1 dismattalantling from Bayern Munich, and move on to other things like Monday's West Ham FA Cup success and knockout football of another kind with that all-timer of a brawl in Brazil. Hulk smash and more in this Totally Football Show. Wednesday the 11th of March. Duncan Alexander from The Athletic is here. Hello. Dan Kilpatrick from The Athletic is here. Hello. We're also joined by Natalie Gedra from Sky Sports.

2:30Dan Kilpatrick: Bom dia.

2:30Duncan Alexander: Bom dia, Natalie. But you are athletic, so...

2:33Dan Kilpatrick: I am here, yeah.

2:34Duncan Alexander: Yeah, you certainly are. Are you doing any marathons and stuff at the moment?

2:38Dan Kilpatrick: Oh, James, I'm running a marathon on Sunday. This Sunday? Yes.

2:41Duncan Alexander: Where?

2:42Dan Kilpatrick: Barcelona.

2:43Duncan Alexander: Oh. Yeah, exciting. Wow. Newcastle have got a marathon in Barcelona or something like that. Type segue, maybe.

2:52Dan Kilpatrick: Yeah, we can do this analogy later, yeah. Okay.

2:56Duncan Alexander: Dan got noted don't mention oh right okay how was your Tuesday night

3:03Natalie Gedra: it was eventful right yeah well actually it wasn't I was largely just sitting on the sofa but it felt eventful were you sitting on the sofa

3:11Duncan Alexander: or behind it

3:13Natalie Gedra: there was a there was a point where I was finding it genuinely difficult to watch which it was this season has been about new emotions with Tottenham and that was very much a new thing of almost physically being unable to watch them

3:24Duncan Alexander: Okay, it. A game which we won't name because... Wow. We watched you on Imagine TNT, were you? I was, yes. What a great shout to have Joe Hart on for what proved to be the night of the goalkeeper controversy.

3:43James Richardson: Yeah. A lot of... I think Dan pointed out that the goalkeepers union all came together, which is fair enough, because I think Igor Tudor's decision was probably okay, but the way he did it was not.

3:58Natalie Gedra: It was a bit like when the Prime Minister's kind of on the rocks and then all the cabinet kind of come out at once and sort of back him on social media. With the same text. Yeah, exactly. It felt like the kind of spin doctor of the goalkeepers' union said, right, lads, we go now. And De Gea came out, the Virial goalkeeper came out, Paul Robinson was on Five Live. one of the Schmeichels Peter Schmeichels Peter Schmeichels yeah and everyone was I'm sure Casper was yeah I'm sure he was yeah which the goalkeeper's evening kind of feels like an abstract concept a lot of the time but it was there for Kinski last night which I liked

4:35Duncan Alexander: yeah last time you were on was a month ago and it was the morning that they sacked Thomas Frank or that was announced was it yeah and you were an early member of the Frank Out Brigade as I recall and that's working out really well for you so far. Is there any chance that we might need to re-record today's podcast?

4:55Natalie Gedra: Well, I do hope so. Not because I like hassle and admin, but because clearly Tudor has to go immediately, but don't have any time to lose on this.

5:05Duncan Alexander: Do you think that view is now, I'm not trying to work up a story where there isn't one, so is there genuinely a chance that on the basis of four straight defeats and everything, they are going to pull the plug?

5:17Natalie Gedra: I mean, I think so, right? I mean, he was literally hired to make an immediate impact and give them a bounce. He certainly has. Yeah, and he's lost four games in a row. He has hastened the decline and he has not improved a single thing at Spurs. I'm not one of these people that has a kind of fatalist view of the club is broken, there's nothing anyone can do. I think the right person could lift the situation, could have gone in and improved on what Frank was doing, but Tudor clearly hasn't. He's talked down the players in the club. I suppose they've got one of the most fragile dressing rooms imaginable and he's gone in and told them how rubbish they all are, how they can't pass, they can't run, they can't finish.

5:58Natalie Gedra: He's talked down the club, he's played players out of position, he's changed formation every game, he's played defensive football. It's been a complete disaster and the sooner they get rid of them the better because they don't have time to lose. They've got nine games left to stay in the Premier League.

6:14James Richardson: I mean, to be fair, they find plenty of time to lose.

6:18Natalie Gedra: Yes. It's nice that you can laugh about it. That's all I've got. Well, Arsenal not winning everything and laughing at Spurs is kind of all Spurs fans have got left now for this season.

6:30Duncan Alexander: All right, well, we'll see about the former. Was curious to see Mauricio Pochettino on the plane flying to Madrid to see the game, serenaded by Spurs fans. What was the reason that he was in attendance?

6:42Natalie Gedra: I think the official reason was to watch Johnny Cardoso, who is obviously one of his US. Right. When you say official reason, though, Dan... Well, obviously, there's links to Spurs. There's a lot of talk about him going back in the summer. I think there's also noise about Real Madrid now, which could have been the reason he was in Madrid. So who knows what meetings he was having around that game, but I think he was kind of nominally there to watch Cardoso. But Spurs have been doing a bit of a PR drive recently where they got Jan Vertonghen back and they got Dele Alli back and they've been half-time guests.

7:17Natalie Gedra: And I kind of just feel a bit ashamed that these kind of beloved figures from Spurs past are being forced to watch this team. And I'd really rather they weren't. But yeah, there you go. I see.

7:31Duncan Alexander: Very good. Let's run through quickly the results from Tuesday night. The four Champions League last 16 first legs. In the early game, Galatasaray had a lively 1-0 win over Liverpool. Same scoreline that they had against the Reds in September. Both sides had further goals disallowed in that match. Newcastle-Barcelona finished 1-1. Harvey Barnes looked like he'd given Newcastle the winner, but with the last kick of the game, Yamal equalised from the penalty spot. The other two matches featured 14 goals. Seven of them in Madrid, where Atletico beat Spurs 5-2. That's Spurs' sixth straight defeat, their fourth in a row under Tudor.

8:10Duncan Alexander: and in Bergamo it was Bayern 6, Atalanta 1. Come on Spurs fans, let's hear some more about your boys. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson,

8:21Natalie Gedra: part of the Athletic FC podcast network.

8:25Duncan Alexander: I mean, they're like the Keystone Cops at the back at the moment, aren't they? Topham, goalkeeper slip, plant the back. Oh, he's done it again! Oh my God.

8:31Natalie Gedra: He's done it again! What is happening here? Alvarez.

8:39Natalie Gedra: Kinski all over the place Spurs three down in 15 minutes

8:46Duncan Alexander: They're getting Vicari already Down below us already Tudor made the decision He's going to change it Kinski seemingly can't handle it

8:56Natalie Gedra: Spurs can't handle it And Atletico Madrid are three up And this is embarrassing

9:03Duncan Alexander: Well Dan here we are Atletico 5, Tottenham Hotspur 2, which the way the first 15 minutes went actually is not a bad scoreline for Tottenham. I guess we need to start with Tudor's big decision to bench Vicario and bring in Kinski for his Champions League debut.

9:23Natalie Gedra: Yeah, well, I mean, it's easy to say this morning that it was a terrible call. And I think the way he handled the situation was brutal. and as I think Fletch said on TNT comments, it was a dereliction of duty to just ignore him as he went off. But there was some logic, I think, in making that call. To take him off? No, to start him in the game. To start him, mate. Throwing anyone into a big Champions League game when they haven't played since October is questionable, I think. Has Vecario been that bad? Vecario has been poor for a while and I think there is a feeling that he's one of the senior players at Spurs and he's by far the only one who is not stepping up and kind of taking on the responsibility for getting them out of this dire situation they are in in the Premier League.

10:10Natalie Gedra: Kinski is good with his feet, better than Vacario by all accounts and from what little we've seen of him. So there was a degree of logic, but obviously it was played out. It's now an infamous call and I think the way he dealt with it was abysmal.

10:27Duncan Alexander: so for anyone who didn't witness this five minutes in he slips over while passing the ball out and it goes straight to an Atleti player and Atleti score almost immediately

10:40Natalie Gedra: he was by far we might come on to this but he was by far from the only Spurs player to slip over so I kind of don't blame him for that one

10:46Duncan Alexander: so the second goal which comes almost immediately is after van der Ven slips over did Spurs then reveal that they'd used the wrong boots?

10:54Natalie Gedra: I haven't heard anything about that but it did look as though they were just underprepared in terms of footwear or studs, whatever, for the surface. And apparently, anecdotally, I've read, Atleti liked to water the pitch for big games. Apparently Barcelona, when they lost 4-0 in the first leg of the Copa del Rey a couple of weeks ago,

11:19Natalie Gedra: felt the pitch was surprisingly wet. I see. And they were kind of struggling to keep their footing. So apparently this isn't a new thing, but Spurs looked, and we shouldn't really be surprised, totally unprepared for it. So the first two goals were slips. Then the third one? Yes.

11:36Duncan Alexander: Not a slip, but the first one, it's got into his head at that point.

11:39Natalie Gedra: Yeah, he tried, I would say, a difficult-ish pass with his left foot across his body to the right back and completely fluffed his lines. And Alvarez was literally able to walk it. I mean, he could have dribbled it over the line if he wanted. I think he tapped it in from a yard or so.

11:56James Richardson: And there's some great photographs of before Alvarez has even scored, Kinski just face down. Presumably the wet tar. Might feel quite pleasant, I imagine.

12:04Natalie Gedra: I was expecting you to have the XG of that goal.

12:08Duncan Alexander: I can tell you what it is, yeah. While you're doing that, Dick Bernas, is this the quickest sub of a keeper based on performance ever? Well, there have actually been three keepers taken off in the Champions League at an earlier point in matches, but they've all been because of injuries. injuries, the only analogous occasion of a manager going, I'm going to make a tactical switch because my keeper is so rubbish, I guess would be the Paulo de Cana, West Fotheringham, Swindon. What did you make of his reaction when he came off and kicked the bottle?

12:39Natalie Gedra: He didn't look very happy.

12:42Dan Kilpatrick: Ah, if he wasn't happy, we were fuming. We were absolutely, I don't know what expression he used, But it's obvious that if he doesn't say sorry to everybody, he's out.

12:57Duncan Alexander: He's out. But that was later than this. That was in the 20s, the minutes there, I think. This was unprecedented. Sorry, Duncan, you were saying it was the right decision to do. He was saving the player, saving the team, in Tougal's words.

13:11James Richardson: Yeah, I think, I mean, Dan might have an opinion, but I think Kinski had completely gone by that point. I think he had to come off, but he should have got a big hug from Igor Tudor. And a sort of, you know, this is a nightmare, but these things happen. Not a complete blank.

13:28Dan Kilpatrick: Would you wait until halftime? Because it is less shocking when you take off a goalkeeper during halftime.

13:35Duncan Alexander: Would you wait until halftime to take him off?

13:37Dan Kilpatrick: Yeah.

13:37Duncan Alexander: Well, given that he'd already conceded three goals in the space of 15 minutes, would you be concerned at how things were going?

13:44Dan Kilpatrick: Yeah, but I don't know. It's just...

13:48James Richardson: I think if he was more experienced, you'd leave him on. But he is very young and he is inexperienced. I think it was just...

13:55Natalie Gedra: For me, I completely agree with Schmeichel in that I think when you take him off after that third goal, he is kind of branded with that now. It's Loris Karius. It is Loris Karius, albeit on a slightly smaller stage. And I think it's hard to recover from that. I would, is he, who knows? I mean, he could have stayed on and made, and next time he got the ball, made another howler, and the situation would be even worse. So we just don't know. But I kind of agree with Schmeichlund that I would have wanted to see him, just let him steady himself, boot the next one 50 yards up the pitch, whatever it is, calm down a bit, and then haul him off.

14:36Natalie Gedra: I don't know. Halftime seems like the logical time to do it.

14:40Dan Kilpatrick: And not only that, I would say Tudor lost the dressing room, if he ever had the dressing room, because I don't think that was really the case. He's been criticising, as Dan said, criticising the players and exposing Spurs' mistakes since he arrived at the club, since his first game. But it just made it look worse that three or four players acknowledging Kinski when he was leaving.

15:04Duncan Alexander: Even the Atletico players were giving signs of encouragement and consolation to Kinski as he went off.

15:09James Richardson: Our 30 fans applauded him off, didn't they?

15:11Duncan Alexander: To be honest, they had plenty to applaud for.

15:16Natalie Gedra: There was this thing that TNT mentioned that I didn't see because I don't think they had the footage of it, where apparently when Jed Spence was substituted late in the game, he wasn't acknowledged by Tudor either. And he went round the back, TNT were saying, and tapped Tudor on the back, literally. Got him to turn around, shook his hand, and then went and sat on the bench, which was pretty telling as to kind of how I think the squad felt.

15:37Dan Kilpatrick: What's up with his men management? I mean, really?

15:41Duncan Alexander: If you bring in a guy who's kind of an iron fist to whip guys into shape, maybe that's the way that he approaches substitutions, and he felt that, I'm just guessing, maybe...

15:50James Richardson: Did he do City of Entis? Was he this kind of like star?

15:52Duncan Alexander: Yeah, I think he was this stern there as well. I mean, obviously we didn't have this situation there, but maybe he felt that this is the decision I'm making, and it is a mark of my respect for him as a professional, that I'm not going to modely cuddle him as it comes off. I don't know. I don't know. But, yeah.

16:07James Richardson: I mean just on that third goal as Dan asked a very rare.99xg and.99xgot so Alvarez did what he was expected to do can't ask more than that

16:20Duncan Alexander: In amongst all this we should salute Atletico Madrid who were pretty magnificent at times very very magnificent that Griezmann backhill flick for the fifth goal was vintage Griezmann

16:35Natalie Gedra: 20 something seconds from the Richarlison header being saved to that brilliant counter-attack and yeah it was one of those nights where it was I mean obviously Spurs being dreadful was kind of occupying most of my head but it was kind of quite joyful to watch Griezmann I thought in full flow and he came out afterwards and said he's staying at Atleti till the summer there's obviously this interest from Orlando City and I think that's great for them because you know they're going for a potential double aren't they so yeah they made the most of the situation and I think in a way made their own luck Alvarez had to press Kinski to force that mistake right wasn't a given

17:16James Richardson: that's so true and obviously last season in a slightly less dramatic version of what Kinski did for the third goal Alvarez had that penalty didn't he against Real Madrid when he hit it onto his own foot which essentially changed the rules of football not sure Kinski's going to do that we'll see

17:34Duncan Alexander: Do you think, Spurs having made the scoreline a little bit more respectable with goals from Podo and Solanke, that this is recoverable? We saw, you mentioned Atletico Madrid taking a 4-0 lead against Barca, who are admittedly Barcelona, in the first leg of the Copa del Rey and then shipping three in the second one and very nearly losing the tie or at least going to extra time. Can Spurs?

17:59Natalie Gedra: Well, Spurs famously have recovered from a three-goal deficit in a big Champions League game. so I wouldn't completely rule it out. And I think the lesson from this season, if anything, and it's true of the Newcastle game as well, is that middling and underwhelming Premier League clubs can be extraordinarily competitive in the Champions League.

18:19Duncan Alexander: If only Spurs were a middling.

18:21James Richardson: I mean, we don't know who's going to be managing by this point. Well, yeah.

18:23Natalie Gedra: Ozzie ideally might send out an incredible team. Precisely. So, I mean, I can't see it. And I think, as really depressing as it is to say, it's not the worst thing in the world that this tie feels half over for Spurs because they've obviously got bigger problems and another priority which is to put everything into staying in the Premier League

18:44Dan Kilpatrick: Yeah, the list of fixtures immediately it's a bit concerning because you have Liverpool away and you don't know if you're going to have Cristian Romero or João Palinha because they had the incident and there's concussion protocols to follow

18:57Duncan Alexander: They both looked really, really unwell when they came off after a sickening clash of heads So, yeah

19:03Dan Kilpatrick: Richarlison is already suspended for the Liverpool match. And Van der Venne. Oh, sorry, it's Van der Venne. It's a Dragosin-Danzo back two, maybe with someone else.

19:16Natalie Gedra: So Poro's still suspended, is he? No, Poro, I guess, could play in the back three because if Tudor's still in charge, he loves playing players out of position. But Poro is not a centre-half.

19:26Duncan Alexander: Right, that's true.

19:27Dan Kilpatrick: So Van der Venne is suspended and you have Liverpool away. you have the second leg against Atletico Madrid and then you have Forrest at home, which is the game for Spurs. I mean, I don't know if you sack Tudor now to just try to save something in this sequence or if you wait until Liverpool or second leg because the Forrest game is just around the corner.

19:53Duncan Alexander: Well, if you follow Tudor's philosophy, you say that's enough damage. It's too much risk to leave him in there. I mean, if you apply the Kinski principle to Tudor, then you hook him as soon as possible.

20:04James Richardson: That's a good name for a principle, isn't it? A Kinski principle.

20:07Duncan Alexander: That does sound good.

20:08Natalie Gedra: To expand on the political analogy, there is, I guess, a case that you leave Tudor in charge for Liverpool because that's such a hard game for a new manager. Like you would leave the PM in for tricky local elections and then bin them afterwards. Right. But I just don't think Spurs can afford to do that now. Liverpool aren't they're not Liverpool of last season right they've got to try and get something in that game they can't lose another league they've got to put everything into trying to get a point at the very least and stop this rot and then it's less likely with Tudor in charge

20:43James Richardson: and one of the advantages Spurs do have at the moment is their goal difference compared to Forest and West Ham and so you don't want to be going to Anfield under Tudor and getting smashed

20:53Duncan Alexander: you certainly don't We were pondering on Sunday about how neutrals felt about the prospect of Spurs actually potentially getting relegated. Lots of people wrote in about this, just quickly to finish off this, by saying some positive comments, in the sense that JR saying the league would become more boring, we'd lose a team which plays open football, lots of goals per match, and they're unpredictable too. BZ2 said they'd be in serious, serious financial trouble. I don't think we should wish that on anyone's club. So true. Others quite happy to wish that on Spurs. Michael Smith says in terms of the English clubs that tried to start a European Super League, it'd be a case of one down five to go.

21:32Duncan Alexander: Sean Saunders says it'd be the funniest thing that ever happened in the Premier League. Brett Mendoza compares it to potentially Leicester winning the Premier League. And Michael Tune makes the point that there are too many London or Southern clubs in the Premier League anyway. Well, sympathy then. Yeah. Well, how much trouble would Spurs be in financially

21:52Natalie Gedra: if they went down? I guess the positive from a Spurs point of view is they have these revenue streams that aren't related to football. They've got the stadium, they've got the NFL and the go-karting and all the things that infuriate Spurs fans. And arguably it's part of the reason they're in this situation because a lot of fans will tell you, oh, they've taken their eye off the football and that's a kind of afterthought now. So I don't think it would be a sort of Rangers-Leads-style catastrophe. but I don't share the optimism that Spurs would immediately bounce back up, even with the expanded playoffs.

22:25Natalie Gedra: I think the Championship's a really tough league and they're a bigger club than Leicester, but look at the state Leicester are in at the moment. So beyond the owners getting their comeuppance, which I think a lot of Spurs fans would love to see, I don't really see any positive in... But obviously, I don't see any positive for Spurs getting relegated. Cheaper ticket prices.

22:52Duncan Alexander: Liverpool this weekend then for Spurs, while Forest, who are a point behind, face Fulham. And West Ham, level with Forest on goal difference, hosts Man City. We'll hear a bit more about West Ham later on. But next up, FC Bayern of Möncheng.

23:16Natalie Gedra: Hey, this is Adam Grant, host of Ted's podcast, Rethinking with Adam Grant. Let me share with you why smart finance leaders turn to Bill. They know that clarity isn't just helpful, it's strategic. As the intelligent finance platform, Bill uses AI to automate the busy work for nearly half a million businesses so they can focus on intentional growth. Eliminate the friction and start scaling with the proven choice. Visit bill.com slash proven to talk with an expert about automating your business finances and get a$250 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.com slash proven. Terms and conditions apply.

23:46Natalie Gedra: See offer page for details.

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25:13Duncan Alexander: Duncan, are FC Bayern of Munchen officially now the side no one wants to face this season?

25:19James Richardson: Possibly. Although we can think back to the autumn and Arsenal pretty much outplayed them. Although Arsenal do have a tendency, as Dan pointed out earlier, to be very good in the autumn and then stumble a bit in the second half. But yeah, I mean, this was just one of the most impressive performances I've seen for a long time.

25:37Duncan Alexander: Should Atalanta have been hooked after 20 minutes?

25:40James Richardson: I think so, yeah. I mean not the fans to be fair because they kept going I mean there was no storming out at half time at this No that was really touching

25:50Duncan Alexander: actually the way they supported them right up until the final whistle and beyond And got a goal

25:54James Richardson: in the 93rd

25:55Duncan Alexander: And got a goal as well But 6-1 Bayern won in Bergamo and they didn't even bring Harry Kane off the bench No

26:03James Richardson: Harry Kane's biggest input was basically celebrating some of the girls on the touchline So yeah that's quite a flex but I mean I think the story of the game was Michael Alisse. That's one of the best performances I've seen for a long time.

26:18Duncan Alexander: James Horncastle was at the Goethe Stadium and he said the same thing. Two goals and an assist. He's now on 15 goals and 22 assists this season. Admittedly, if you play for Bayern, you're going to rack up the numbers because they often have scorelines like this. They did Leipzig 6-0. They put six past Freiburg. They put eight past Wolfsburg. Lord knows what they're going to do to Atalanta next week in Munich.

26:41James Richardson: At least the away goals rule is no longer there. That's a slight bit of hope for Atalanta. But no, it's over, obviously. But I thought, not only was Alise just brilliant, I mean, his first goal when he bent it in from the edge of the box was outstanding. But I can't remember who it was. But Bayern had a shot late on that was pretty poor. And he could have squared it. And Alise was absolutely fuming. And this was when they were 6-0 up. And it's that kind of, I mean, almost to the looking at Spurs, it's that kind of relentless drive for kind of high standards that I think good football teams and great players have.

27:14James Richardson: And Bayern have that, you know, and I think people, when company went there, having gone down with Burnley, people were a little bit like, well, is that fair? You know, there was a lot of criticism of him sticking to his principles at Turf Moor and then getting a plum job. but I think the tactical flexibility they're showing, the movement. I think Luis Diaz is absolutely outstanding. I mean, Liverpool have clearly missed him way more than they thought they would this season. And yeah, I think they are by far the favourites for that half of the draw. And I think if there's a sort of football injustice based on this season, it will be an Arsenal-Bayern final and may the best team win.

27:54Duncan Alexander: Next up, they will be taking on, if they survive the second leg, they will face either Real Madrid or Man City who will be having their first leg on Wednesday night Atalanta, almost certainly now the Italian interest in the Champions League has ended Gazeta della Sport this Wednesday morning calling it not a humiliation for them but for all of Italian football and they run through the list of what's happened in the last 12 months you've got Inter in the Champions League final you've got Norway beating Italy 7-1 on aggregate across the two World Cup qualifying games. You've got Inter again by now.

28:31Duncan Alexander: City, our runaway leaders, getting schooled 5-2 by Bodo Glimp, the instant with the pigeon, of course, as well. But it is worrying times. They are worrying times.

28:41James Richardson: Yeah, and just to put it into context, we've got Optodata going back sort of 11 years for the Champions League. And Bayern's XG of 4.84 is the most in a knockout game that there has been black past the playoffs. So in the last 16 and further on, I mean, that shouldn't be happening at that stage of the competition, but it is.

29:04Dan Kilpatrick: It is the best football in the Champions League, Bayern Munich. And you can argue that Arsenal played some brilliant football in the Champions League, which they did. I know there's this big discussion on their style of football in the Premier League, but they did have really big performances in the Champions League. But as Duncan mentioned, the movements, the combinations, it's not just about the individual qualities, which are always flourishing at Bayern Munich. And you see them in big games as well, stylistically. It's just, it is really entertaining to watch. It is very impressive what they're doing.

29:42Duncan Alexander: Natalie, how impressed were you with Newcastle's performance against Barcelona?

29:45Dan Kilpatrick: You know, I was. I was very impressed. Actually, at first I thought I was in the wrong game because the goals were flying in. Right. Yes, at Barmunic and Spurs were so distracting. And I was thinking, oh, Producer Charlie, again, he put me with a bad game, you know. No goals here. But to be fair, I like the matchup. You did? Yes, because Newcastle, they have this intensity which is such a trademark for them and they're getting to good places in the final third. And then you have Barcelona with, you know, trying to slow down the game and possession. So in the first half, you saw a lot of these.

30:26Dan Kilpatrick: When Newcastle had the ball, they were so direct and so aggressive. And then you thought, OK, they're close to a goal here. But then Barcelona got the ball back and you thought, no, they can't control this match. Absolutely. And then on second half, Barcelona just basically didn't exist because Newcastle, they were just really good. And I know there was this discussion after the game that they were a bit naive for going for the second goal and exposing themselves potentially to conceding a goal. But if I was a Newcastle fan, I'd be frustrated that they didn't take their opportunities because they got into good positions so many times.

31:07Dan Kilpatrick: Right.

31:07Duncan Alexander: Also, a win is one thing, but a one goal win to take to the Camp Nou is not really that big a margin. so you can understand. Broadly speaking, though, how's Plaid had seen Newcastle restrict Barcelona just one shot on target before the penalty, which was 96th minute, I think. What was it he did? And what are the chances that they can wheel that out again next week in Catalonia?

31:28Dan Kilpatrick: I think they were first really organized. And I think Newcastle, they are good in playing this type of games at St. James' Park. They know how to defend with energy. and also they used their wings really well. And Lewis Hall had such a great performance against Laminia Mal, really, like outstanding. And offensively, they know how to play like a team in big games, Newcastle, and that was a big demonstration because with Barcelona, you have to be all over them. It's not just defending with your back four. And they were just really organized, full of energy, and they were trying to disrupt their rhythm all the time.

32:12Dan Kilpatrick: And I think that's something they did really well. You know, they were disrupting Barcelona's pace during the whole game, especially in the second half. And they were getting into some really good positions. But that's been the problem with Newcastle this whole season. It's the final touch. Sometimes it is the timing that they don't get right. And that happened a few times in the first half. And then in the second half, it's just that final decision. they were just not, it's not only the finish, but you know, the final movement, but they were getting into some really good positions and they had really good chances.

32:45Dan Kilpatrick: So they could have scored two, three goals against Barcelona, especially in that second half. So for me, that's the biggest frustration. It was so deflating when they got the penalty, really. Like it's so, it was really unfair because Newcastle were much better than Barcelona. And of course, I know Barcelona, they They were hit by injuries and they will be better at Camp Nou. But it was really a missed opportunity for Newcastle to take a bigger advantage to Camp Nou.

33:12Duncan Alexander: That was the only positive, vaguely result for the three Englishites. Because Liverpool, meanwhile, in the early game on Tuesday, lost 1-0 away at Galatasaray. The Athletic writes this one up as a microcosm of Liverpool's season. What do they mean, Duncan? Well, they weren't very good.

33:32James Richardson: The whole right-hand side of Liverpool's team was appalling. Mo Salah didn't do anything. Joe Gomez just kept getting caught out of position. Canate too. Every time the camera cut to Van Dijk, he was telling Canate to come closer. Galatasaray just cut through them again and again. Osserman was having the night of his life. The gaps between Liverpool's defence and midfield and attack were huge. and it was, I mean, they just looked so different to the team that were very impressive last season. And we mentioned Luis Diaz a minute ago, but he would have contributed to that game significantly last night in terms of effort.

34:16James Richardson: And yeah, I mean, to Dan's point earlier, you can't rule out Spurs getting something at Anfield at the weekend if they play like that because they were really poor.

34:25Dan Kilpatrick: On the theme of recurring mistakes from Liverpool against Galatasaray, they conceded with a set piece, of course, which is something that's been happening a lot. And they created a lot of chances and they were wasteful, which has been happening a lot in Liverpool season. Like you had Ike Tike, you had Wirtz. Wirtz had a big chance in the first half. Gakpo later on, McAllister, they all had chances to score for Liverpool and no one did. You had individual mistakes. Konate, who's been really good since the start of the year, he was fortunate that Galatasaray's second goal was disallowed by offside.

35:06Duncan Alexander: Yeah, which was a curious decision.

35:07Dan Kilpatrick: It was.

35:08James Richardson: I think the lines were flagged for a player who wasn't actually involved in the goal. And VAR can't really overturn an on-field decision like that. So the linesman had already put his flag up? Yeah, briefly, I think. So it was, as Nassie says, they were so lucky to get away with that. And Canate kind of tied himself in knots to try and keep it out.

35:27Duncan Alexander: Right. But it did finish 1-0. And for all that Newcastle got a draw at home to Barcelona, do you maybe fancy Liverpool's chances of going through more? We saw how Galatasaray collapsed on the second leg of their previously knockout phase game against Juventus.

35:43Dan Kilpatrick: Yeah, exactly. I do fancy Liverpool's chances because of that. And also in group stage, they lost three of the four away games. Of course, it was against good opponents. They lost to Manchester City. They lost to Eintracht Frankfurt. And they also lost to Monaco. And as you mentioned, they almost threw away their advantage against Juventus. So, and, you know, you would expect. It's a Champions League night at Anfield. It's only one goal. I really fancy Liverpool's chance. But they definitely need to play better than they did. because it was not a good performance from Liverpool at all.

36:20Duncan Alexander: And the voices calling for Slott to maybe drop Mo Salah for a bit and maybe suffer a few interviews off the back of it.

36:29Dan Kilpatrick: It was a very discreet performance from Salah again.

36:33Duncan Alexander: In the sense that...

36:34Dan Kilpatrick: He didn't do much, yeah. Yeah, generous. And I think the thing that doesn't play into Salah's favour is that Rio, Ngomorra, he's been taking his chances. He's been performing really well. So there is a section of fans who would expect him to start. I don't know if in a Champions League game like this, but it is a fact that he's been taking well his chances.

37:01Duncan Alexander: Right. Well, if they do get through, they'll be facing either Chelsea, love a Liverpool-Chelsea Champions League clash, or the holders Paris Saint-Germain. Those two teams will be facing each other in their first leg Wednesday evening. the other games Wednesday evening, Real Madrid against Man City, Bodo glimmed against Sporting, and Bayern Arsenal in the early kickoff. Next up for us, let's move on to the FA Cup and that business in Brazil.

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39:55Natalie Gedra: You're listening to The Totally Football Show with James Richardson. Now with you four times a week. Keep up to date with us on Insta and enjoy seeing glorious Technicolor on YouTube at The Totally Show.

40:06Duncan Alexander: Oh, Monday saw the last of the FA Cup fifth round games played. It was West Ham against Brentford. 2-2 after 90 minutes, still 2-2 after extra time. So they went to penalties where the hammers were pretty much perfect from the spot. And Dango Watara wasn't with his Brahim Diaz-esque Panenka attempt. He's taken his time. Oh, my word.

40:35Natalie Gedra: What was that all about? Not the time.

40:41Duncan Alexander: I'd say that was worse, quite considerably worse than Diaz's Africa Cup of Nations show.

40:46James Richardson: Yeah, Adam Ola-Luckman did a probably worse one at that same goal, I think. They all look bad when the keepers are standing still. I see.

40:54Natalie Gedra: It would have been great if it had dived.

40:57James Richardson: I mean, we've talked about this many times before. the anger that is generated particularly amongst proper football men when one is not scored is it's a shot that it doesn't go in you know is that any worse than trying to put it in the corner and scuffing it not really

41:13Natalie Gedra: it's a legitimate approach to penalties that has often worked you might think it's high risk sometimes it doesn't work but it's also high risk doing what was it Mavropanos who wellied it into the top corner that's kind of a high risk shot and if it comes off the bar you're saying, oh well, couldn't he have

41:30Duncan Alexander: been a bit safer with it? Well, it was another positive result for West Ham anyway, who've now only lost two of 11 matches across all competitions. So looking good. Obviously that's not looking good for Spurs. A lot of football still be playing. Spurs should maybe have a look. The concern perhaps though for the Hammers was the sight of Crescente Somerville, who's been their most exciting player of late, limping off the field after the final whistle. I'm not sure the entity of that injury, but they have a big game coming up themselves, the Hammers. They are hosting Manchester City this weekend.

42:07Duncan Alexander: As for the FA Cup, they're in the quarterfinal. They will be hosting Leeds when that rolls around, the weekend of the 4th of April. The other quarterfinal ties are Saints against Arsenal, Chelsea against Port Vale, and Man City against Liverpool, says Brian M. surprise City didn't draw Real Madrid again.

42:29Natalie Gedra: My hot take on the FA Cup draw is it should not happen before all the games have been played. Because if you're West Ham, right, and maybe I'm misunderstanding the psyche of hyper-competitive professional footballers, if you draw City or Arsenal away, that changes the dynamics than if you draw Port Vale at home. Surely how you're feeling about the competition and playing that game against Brentford, right? Or the draw should be after everyone's earned their place in the round. It really irritates me that they feel the need to do it before the game.

43:02James Richardson: But the law, L-O-R-E law, about the draw is just ridiculous as well. You get people going, oh, it used to be on the radio at lunchtime, so that's when it should be. I'm not too embarrassed about that. No, no, but I totally agree. It's a functional thing that happens after the games have been played. Yeah.

43:18Duncan Alexander: Yeah, if you were going to start a cup competition from scratch, there's no way you'd go, let's draw. before the matches have been played. Is it because people are going to switch off after the game or what?

43:28Natalie Gedra: Yeah, I guess so. Well, no one's watching the build-up to Brentford-West Ham, are they, anyway? Maybe that's why they put the draw in,

43:36Duncan Alexander: because I imagine lots of people did for that reason. Anyway, as a result of Man City drawing Liverpool, they do have a remarkable set of fixtures coming up over the next six weeks. Real Madrid tonight in the Champions League, Wednesday. Then West Ham at the weekend away, which is no longer all that easy looking a fixture. Real Madrid then at home in the Champions League next week followed by Arsenal in the Carabao Cup final followed by Liverpool in the FA Cup. Then if they get past Real Madrid they've got either Bayern or they've got Bayern in the Champions League. Then they've got Chelsea in the Premier League then another clash with Bayern before their next opponent in the Premier League who are, Natalie?

44:15Dan Kilpatrick: Arsenal.

44:16Duncan Alexander: Arsenal in the big title decider. That's a round of fixtures. No question about it Anyway We can deal with all of those games As they hoove more closely into view To finish off today's show I guess We need to talk about Something that nobody likes to see Players Involved in On-field kerfuffles

44:41Dan Kilpatrick: That's an understatement

44:44Duncan Alexander: So this was on Sunday In the Campeonato Mineiro

44:49Dan Kilpatrick: Yes, well done for your Portuguese

44:50Duncan Alexander: Thank you so much. In Brazil, of course. And it was Cruzeiro against Atlético. Atlético Mineiro. A derby.

45:00Dan Kilpatrick: Yes, big derby. Big derby. Right.

45:03Duncan Alexander: And, well, what happened?

45:05Dan Kilpatrick: Well, it all started with a clash between Cruzeiro's forward Christian and Atlético's goalkeeper Everson. Right. Everson's reaction. okay so let's let's let's get into this i felt he he could have got out of the way could he not it was completely out of proportion the goalkeeper's reaction you think yeah i thought it was okay

45:27Duncan Alexander: the goalkeeper's reaction was basically going down in a kind of mma style and kneeling on his chest

45:33Dan Kilpatrick: and and yeah yes yeah but the thing that surprised me the most and this is what i was trying to make sense of when I saw the footage was how did this become, honestly, the biggest, I don't even know how to call it. It was just...

45:51Duncan Alexander: Is it beyond a brawl? I'm not sure what the next level is up. I mean, it was a full-scale fight. There were flying kicks, fisticuffs, armed military police. All over the beach.

46:02Dan Kilpatrick: I've never seen anything like it.

46:11Duncan Alexander: Defende o Everson. Ué, o que é isso, gente? O Everson foi para cima do jogador do Cruzeiro.

46:16James Richardson: Confusão. Confusão. Confusão. Confusão. Ih, agora ficou. Uma briga feia agora. Começou. Uma briga feia agora. Porrada mesmo.

46:28Duncan Alexander: Christian goes in hard late on the Atletico keeper. Everson, while chasing a loose ball, and I feel he could have got out of the way, but leaves both feet in. Certainly, Everson feels the same thing. Push him to the ground. kneels on his chest, at which point all the Cruzeiro players come flying in. And in that scuffle, you get Everson. I think his head gets whacked into a post. Very regrettable. Then you've got everybody running all over the field, hitting everybody else. Twenty-three red cards were awarded, 12 to Cruzeiro and 11 to Atletico. Who were the players who didn't get booked? Where were they at this point?

47:05Dan Kilpatrick: Where were they at this point? No, there were players who were just trying to, you know, break up the fight and just trying to calm everyone out. They were just really the exception. And I think the important thing is just try to bring some context into how come this small action, smallish action, became like this gigantic fight that lasted like 10 minutes, I think. And then the game was, it was done anyway.

47:35Duncan Alexander: So it was first, sorry, second half stoppage when the challenge came in.

47:39Dan Kilpatrick: Yes, exactly. Well, this has been building up for a very long time. It is a rivalry. It is a big rivalry. But the past times they met, there was a lot of, you know, arguments on the pitch and off the pitch as well. A lot of provocative interviews and social media posts. And this has been happening for years, really, because the last time Cruzeiro won a title was in 2019. It was the state championship, and then they got relegated. They went through a big crisis. And Atletico was very dominant in the state. So they won six times in a row. They could have won if they won the final, which Cruzeiro was the champions, by the way.

48:26Dan Kilpatrick: And they could have won for the first time ever the seventh in a row. There are a few players who were key in these provocative actions leading up to games. And one of them was actually Lianco, a defender. Yes, Lianco, a defender who played for Southampton, actually.

48:44Duncan Alexander: Lianco who got hit by no less than seven different people in the course of this melee.

48:49Dan Kilpatrick: Yes. So he, yeah, not by chance, because he's been giving provocative statements for quite some time. After all games, Atlético played against Cruzeiro. He's an Atlético defender. So he was always in the middle of things. You had other players who went through all this build-up in the past few years. One of them being the goalkeeper. So he won five of the last six titles with Atlético Mineiro. So all of this was building up. Even small things like the referee. In a state championship, you always use the referees from your state. But because it was Atletico Cruzeiro, the final, they didn't trust the referees from the state.

49:43Dan Kilpatrick: So they brought referees from another state, which is very unusual. So there were a lot of small things leading up to this, and then hell broke loose and everything happened. And the thing is, you have 23 players with red cards and the suspension is only going to apply for next year's state championship. Nothing's going to happen to them now, which is ridiculous. You know, you have the league starting, the National League, and nothing's going to happen to these players right now because there are different entities.

50:18Duncan Alexander: The CBF's not going to bring in any special?

50:20Dan Kilpatrick: It's very rare. No, it's very rare that CBF would interfere with state matter issues because they're just different entities. There's Federação Mineira, the federation from Minas Gerais and the Brazilian FA. So it's just it's quite shocking. And to be fair, James, it's very lucky that the police acted quickly in the stands. because I was actually talking to a friend of mine who was pitch side when everything happened. She was reporting pitch side. And she said that there was a movement of atletico fans because it was half and half, the stadium. And there was a movement of atletico fans just going towards cruzado fans because, of course, they feel entitled to, you know, be a part of all that.

51:09Dan Kilpatrick: And the police acted really quickly. Otherwise, it could have gone way worse. Wow, that's so true. Yeah.

51:15Natalie Gedra: What I liked is there was a coach, I'm not sure which team he was part of, he kind of runs onto the pitch and he's obviously trying to calm everyone down. He's got his hands out, he's yelling. Then he just sees an opposition player on the ground and he just boots him in the back as hard as he can.

51:30Duncan Alexander: A lot of score setting after years of trash talk by the sound of it. A lot of people pointing out Hulky coming in and landing a punch from behind on Lucas Romero. but then again other people pointing out that Lucas Romero had himself been one of the seven people hitting Lianko and he did that from behind as well.

51:50Dan Kilpatrick: But that's the thing. I mean, Hulk is an experienced player. He needs to know better. Of course, after the match he came out and he apologized and he said it was embarrassing behavior.

52:00James Richardson: Good to see Hulk going against violence for once.

52:06Dan Kilpatrick: But given his experience and given his leadership, he just he needs to do better you know you just can't get involved in in a fight like this when you're i'm i'm almost sure 40 and and you know yeah it turns 40 in july yes so playing in bigger stages and it just it just sets just terrible example when are they next gonna face each other that's a good question i don't know when they're gonna face they will face each other in the league

52:37Duncan Alexander: Okay, in the Brazilian Real. Yes, yes. Okay.

52:40Dan Kilpatrick: Yes, but, and that's interesting because it won't be half and half. So, yeah, there is this element as well. The first game, where is it going to be played at?

52:54Duncan Alexander: Okay. 3rd of May. 3rd of May, says producer Shirley.

52:58Dan Kilpatrick: Already?

52:58Duncan Alexander: Oh, my God. Oh, that's not good. Wow, that's going to be a hot ticket. Crikey. As you mentioned, it was Cruzeiro who ended Atletico's run by winning this state championship with a 1-0 victory in the game.

53:12Dan Kilpatrick: Chichi is the manager.

53:13Duncan Alexander: Chichi is their manager. Yes, yes.

53:14Dan Kilpatrick: Former Brazil national team manager.

53:17Duncan Alexander: Wow. Have you ever seen anything like it, Duncan?

53:20James Richardson: Well, we talked, didn't we, the other day about the famous Manchester United against Arsenal brawl that saw both deductive points back in 1990. And Natalie pointing out a few players didn't get involved. But I think that lasts with you forever. David Seaman was the only player who didn't get involved in that brawl I don't think he ever really got over it Well

53:41Duncan Alexander: We'll keep an eye out for the 3rd of May And that rematch But I think that's it then for today's Totally Football Show Lovely to see you Natalie And best of luck on the mean streets of Barcelona

53:52Dan Kilpatrick: Oh thank you

53:54Duncan Alexander: Dan Better times ahead I do hope so Best of luck for the second leg And for Anfield this weekend Duncan, good luck to you with Wickham and any other adjacent sides you might be.

54:09James Richardson: Well, at least Spurs weren't 2-0 up with two minutes to go, eh?

54:11Duncan Alexander: What happened to Wickham?

54:12James Richardson: That was great. What happened to them? They lost 3-2. Oh, OK. And you were 2-0 up with two minutes to go? And I was there. It was painful, but, you know, just have to take it on the chin and go again.

54:25Duncan Alexander: Indeed. We'll be going again on Thursday morning with our reaction to Wednesday's fixtures and of course a big look forward to the weekend in the Premier League. Do hope you join us for that. For now from all of us here, it's goodbye.

55:06Natalie Gedra: The Athletic FC.

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