Italy’s heartbreak, Potter’s redemption - and City v Liverpool in the FA Cup

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1:44Totally Football Show. World Cup ready. With finally all 48 nations confirmed. And Graham Potter too. Today we're talking Turkey. Are they dark horses? It's never gone wrong before. Sweden. How? Joy in the Balkans. and a kick in them too for Italy after their Zenitza knockout. Plus, England, Japan, Deserbi at Spurs, FA Cup quarterfinals and much more in this Totally Football Show.

2:18Thursday the 2nd of April. It's a big hello to you listener on the show today from Sky Sport, Natalie Zjedra. Hello. Hi to you, Natalie. Duncan Alexander of The Athletic. Hello. Indeed. And Adrian Clarke of the Handbrake Off podcast. And are we calling it the Breakdown YouTube channel, Adrian? Well, yeah, the videos that I do are called The Breakdown. So, yeah, let's go with that. But you just type in my name and then it'll pop on YouTube. But yeah, hello everyone. You're going to be giving us some national breakdown later on with that England-Japan sizzler. But of course, that was among the perhaps less consequential events on Tuesday night when we finally got the 48 team lineup sorted out for this World Cup.

3:04Duncan, were there any crazy stats? Maybe about teams missing out? Yeah, I mean, it was good to see a scene become completely mainstream, actually. The number of Italy haven't played in a World Cup since X or Italy haven't won a game at the World Cup since Y, content that was funning out, I felt like a proud father.

3:30It's a long time, isn't it? Italy qualified for more World Cups in cricket over the last decade than they have in football, etc. No one's ever seen an Italy victory in a knockout stage. What followed it on an iPhone? Because it simply didn't exist. They simply didn't exist. How did Brazil get on over the last few days, Natalie? Oh, just a rollercoaster of emotions, as it always is the case. You know, tragedy against France. And now everything's great because we beat Croatia. So, yeah, very emotional. OK. And England, Japan, as we say, Adrian, concerns because these friendlies matter. Do they? I'm not sure.

4:16But they mattered to the players. But yeah, it was not a good week, was it, for Thomas Tuchel and for England. And yeah, who knows what team is going to show up for that first match of the World Cup because we're not any closer to knowing really, are we? No. There's already been quite a few of those players who won't be going to the World Cup 11s. I wonder if there'll be an England player who won't go to the World Cup 11 and just how well it might do. Questions perhaps for a later day. Let's check on the results and find out some of the people who will be. Global events permitting at the World Cup this summer.

4:53Tuesday night, Wednesday morning, the final six places were decided. I'm guessing you know some of these. In the European playoffs, Sweden defeated Poland 3-2, thus making the World Cup despite not winning a single qualifying group game. Turkey beat Kosovo 1-0. They're back at the World Cup for the first time since 2002. Meanwhile, there were penalty shoots out needed in the other two Euro playoff finals. Set-piece specialist the Czechs beat Denmark to make their first World Cup since 2006. And finally, Bosnia, and trying the fancy pronunciation Herzegovina, defeated Italy. The Azzurri failing to qualify, apparently, for the World Cup a third straight time.

5:35Good Lord. Also, Tuesday night, Wednesday morning, we had the two Mexican finals. Iraq beating Bolivia with former Wicca man Ali Alhamadi with the opening goal. Iraq going to a group with France, Senegal and Norway. And Democratic Republic of Congo beat Jamaica 1-0 to qualify for the workout for the first time since 1974 when they were known as Zaire. This 52-year gap is the joint longest period of absence of any of this year's qualifiers, although Italy have now requested for them to hold their beer. All right, then. Let's start with events in Zanica. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network.

6:38Crikey, what scenes in the Balkans Tuesday night and way, way into Wednesday morning, 4am the streets jammed as players and supporters celebrated Bosnia returning to the World Cup. Novak Djokovic amongst them, of course. What a night for Bosnia and Herzegovina. Duncan. Yeah, the sort of scenes you dream of when you're a country the size of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was a strange game in the sense that Italy started very well, didn't they? They kind of, I mean, ish. It was fairly even. but um the moise canes goal was you know slightly fortunate it's fair to see a sort of you know side-footed finish from from that distance but he uh he made the most of it and it felt at that point that it was you know italy were it wasn't a perfect uh passage but they were finally going to do it but then obviously the red card just before half time was uh was a key moment even before that though i think one of the issues for it and there have been so many forest-filled to print a deep analysis of where Italy's gone wrong again over the last few days.

7:55But one of the major issues is the mentality and the whole retreating when you have a goal advantage, or even sometimes when you don't. And even before Bastoni's wild lunge, they were behind on the shot count by 11 to 2. I think it's not a vintage Italy side by any means, but one of the big regrets that the Italian press are saying pretty much unanimous is that they didn't go out and actually play that certainly once they had the lead they sat back obviously once they went down to 10 men it became a different thing but funny enough they had more they probably had more chances then the big Moise Kane one-on-one that he unfortunately wasn't able to convert but a brilliantly taken goal by Moise Kane which takes him up to eight in his last six international games so pretty good record for him Bosnia-Herzegovina don't seem to lose their heads at that Then the red card really does make a huge impact.

8:47And eventually it's Tabakovic who equalizes. It's a name to conjure with. And we end up going to penalties. Natalie, were you across this as well? Yes, yes. I think everyone who is really into at least international football or football, it was just such a story. And you touched upon it, James, with the mentality. Because if you look at the many theories that emerged in the past couple of days of why Italy didn't qualify for the World Cup, I mean, you have an Italy that has success with youth, you know, with the under-17s, under-19s winning the Euros recently. So it has to be in their heads if you compare to them not qualifying to the 2022 World Cup.

9:37It is not a vintage Italy, but it has enough quality definitely to go to the World Cup. Of course, it's not that squad that you read and it has that fear factor. It doesn't. But when you haven't qualified for the past two World Cups, it just has to be in their head. And I think there's an extra dose of cruelty this time, considering they just lost two of their games in qualifiers. And it was to Norway. I mean, Brazil lost six of their 18 matches and they're going to the World Cup. Honestly, it just it sounds really, really cruel, really mean to Italy. In 2022, they were not convincing at all. This time there was less of a doubt around Italy.

10:19And I think this is why it's one of the reasons why it's more shocking. It's not only because it's the third time. I think there was more confidence around the work that's been happening in Italy. I don't think it's the lowest point for me. For me, that remains that performance they put in at the last Euros against Switzerland. And so after the disappointment, well done to Bosnia, incredible. And it was fantastic to see the sheer joy right through the night till dawn on the streets that followed their penalty shootout. win but by the next day by yesterday i was just feeling well i'd almost rather that they had a third apocalypse and maybe finally learned some lessons and then rather than go to the world cup and put in a performance like they did at the euros because that was so abject against switzerland that final game when when they went out under spalletti trying to find some sort of silver lining in this but there are there are definitely lessons to be learned as you say they're under 17s or under 19s have both been European champions in recent years it's a little bit like when you're trying to catch a wave and you see some gorgeous ones on the horizon heading in and they never quite materialize because I swear for two or three decades now there have been great Italy youth teams that never quite made it and this maybe ties in with one of the issues which is the lack of game time for young players and the ways in which the Italian system fails to get the best out of young talent both in terms of the way it's developed and then in terms of the opportunities These are maybe subjects for an inquest another day.

11:48And on Monday, we'll have James Horncastle on the Euro show out on Tuesday. He was there in Zenitza, so I know has his own views. Duncan? Yeah, I mean, these things are cyclical. I mean, Italy have now beaten England and Uruguay's record as former winners who have missed. They both missed two consecutive World Cups in their history. We'll see England in 74 and 78, but Italy is now up to three. but I think when it's a country of the size of an England or an Italy and this happens there is obviously the the urge to kind of go back to basics remember like the remember the Germany England game at Euro 2000 when England kind of won but it was a pyrrhic victory in a in a terrible match and both countries kind of got knocked out on the group stage and Germany went back to the drawing board and completely revamped their entire sort of youth system and everything and England kind of shrugged and went, we haven't got Alan Shure anymore, let's see what happens.

12:45We've got a golden generation, which sort of worked. But obviously since then, England have also completely revamped academy football. And I do think, to your point, James, about, I think if you look at Germany, you look at Spain, you look at England, they are much more willing to give younger players a chance and kind of build a team around them at a younger age. And maybe that is the way forward for Italy. But I think just as a general, for the neutral, I think it's really sad to have another World Cup without Italy, particularly one in America where there's so many links as well. And yeah, the scenes in Bosnia were fantastic.

13:20And the visa banner that they unveiled immediately afterwards was superb, if slightly tempting fate printing work. But still, hats off. But yeah, I mean, a World Cup without Italy is not quite the real deal. Yeah, where are the sort of grisly, hard-nosed defenders of yesteryear? I think that's something that I would look at. There's obviously a slight lack of trust, isn't there, in a defence that conceded, was it seven goals against Norway across those two group games? That was probably in part at the heart of why they sat on their lead before the red card. I think once they have the red card, there's only really one way of playing on the counter, and they almost scored a brilliant goal, didn't they, from Ken on the counter.

14:08So I don't know. I just think that without that red card, they could still have potentially made it. It was a really daft decision, wasn't it, from Bastoni? Definitely. So he was so far away. He still had a lot to do in terms of scoring that goal. He's not having the best of times at the moment. And a lot of people, there's been a lot of talk of karma and whilst Italian supporters are deeply distressed by what's happened, there is one kind of bit of it which I think there's almost a kind of perverse enjoyment of the fact that Bastoni's got his comeuppance because he pulled off one of the most egregious dives in the Derby d 'Italia against Juventus and got Colula sent off and then celebrated in a pretty objectionable manner.

14:50His opponent getting a red card when he had absolutely dived. And since then, he's been having a terrible time of it in the Champions League and now very much in this game. And the feeling is now that the muted moves to Barcelona are only going to be more likely now. I mean, we've seen players have problems with their national team before. David Beckham, for example, and everyone gets over it soon enough. But yeah, it was a key moment. Having said that, if you go out in playoffs, three World Cup qualifying periods in a row, I think the individual episodes become less consequential. And there's a broader picture there.

15:29As I said, we'll get into more of it on Tuesday's show with James Horncastle. Natalie, though. Yeah, no, I think there are so many questions because where does Italy go from here? You know, is the president of the federation? Well, do you have thoughts, James? So as it stands, Gravina, who's been there for the last two misqualifications, but was also in charge when they somehow won the Euros at Wembley over England. And North Macedonia as well, the defeat to North Macedonia. He was in charge. Yeah. So he's still there, but with the pressure building, the parliament have been talking about how he has to go.

16:08Minister of Sport has called for his resignation. I think either today or in the next few days, he will go. Gattuso will go as well. The Italian papers today talking about who they'd like in. Mancini returning, possibly. Antonio Conte, who did an amazing job with the Italian. Horson. I should say, Horson's not even. When they hear this, Duncan. Pep though, Pep was the Gazette's shout and they managed to kind of conjure a scenario in which it could maybe happen Pep's got great ties with Italy it's a challenge we all know how much he loves to go to teams where he can't just buy in loads of players and that but yeah, we'll see one thing they might like to do in future is not celebrate getting Bosnia in the playoff final that did ramp up the expected hubris didn't it?

16:54I mean, it was silly because anyone who watched those games, I think you see would have got on better against Wales than they did against Bosnia. Really? Yeah, I think so. I don't think this Wales team are particularly effective. So it just seemed like a sort of, not only foolish, but like a little bit of a lack of knowledge. Are you looking forward to seeing Bosnia? Let me just check. They're in with Canada, Qatar and Switzerland, which is a nice group, no? Edin Dzeko at the World Cup. and him celebrating with what was probably the worst bandage I've seen in a professional footballer around his injury shoulder.

17:30There was a bit of drama before the penalties because he injured his shoulder. And then he puts an ice pack and I'm thinking, that's not going to do much, you know, it looks awful. But yeah, you get nice stories. The scenes in Sarajevo were amazing. And Zeko playing a World Cup at the age of 40 is one of the good stories, yeah. Excellent. All right. Well, well done to Bosnia-Herzegovina. Better luck next time for Italy. And we'll chat more about that in the days and weeks to come. But who else is through from Europe? Well, the Turks, the Czechs and the Swedes. Turkey, who I know are going to be a lot of people's dark horses.

18:13What do you think, Duncan? A lot of talent in that side. obviously it's an ongoing meme that every time turkey are in a tournament they're dark horses but you look at their squad and it's like no they actually probably are i mean i think this time i think the fact they're in america's group um is quite interesting as well you know obviously that will that will garner a lot more attention than they maybe would have had in a in a lesser group um so yeah it's um yeah i back them i mean obviously as you said this is their first world Cup appearance since the famous 2002 when they got all the way to the semis and then scored very, very early in everyone's favourite match, the third place playoff.

18:55So, yeah, I think they can finally turn up. Yeah, neither Ada Goulet nor Kenan Yildiz were born last time we looked at the World Cup. This time they have a group with USA, Paraguay and Australia. It's an interesting mix. It's insane to think that a footballing nation like Turkey with so many passionate fans has a whole generation who never watched Turkey at the World Cup. You know, it's only the third time that they're playing the World Cup. They played 1954 and they played 2002, obviously. And on the other hand, Kosovo was a lovely story, wasn't it? You know, the youngest footballing nation recognized only 10 years ago, 18 years of independence as a country.

19:36It was a good opportunity for them to strengthen their identity internationally as a nation. but their manager Franco Foda said that the future is bright for them there's more to come from Kosovo but it was a really nice story two good stories to be fair you know seeing Turkey in the World Cup is really uplifting Adrian are the Czechs getting there is that a good story? It's not a bad story I mean it's been a while since they got to World Cup as well 2006 wasn't it when they had those legends of Czech and Poborski, Neved etc So, yeah, look, they're really solid. The issue is that they won't be able to play at home in America, of course.

20:17And that's where most of their best results have come, on home soil. Look, they're not going to be a great watch. That is my fear. Are you saying you don't like watching teams who are based on set pieces for their goal? Look, I've got no objection to set pieces at all. You know, you get the same amount of goals from a set piece as you do from an open play goal. Look at that muscle memory. But they don't have much of the ball. What did they have? I think 23%. 23%. Yeah, 23%. 120 minutes against Denmark. It was 2-2. The Czechs had 23%. Yeah. And two goals from corners, no? But great goals. Yeah.

20:58A great volley from Pavek Schultz to open the scoring. I mean, that was an absolute peach. There was a brilliant pass as well from Schultz to, so I think Provod, who probably should have scored from a 1v1, that was a moment of real quality. So he's a player to look out for. But look, they're a bit attritional, aren't they, Czechia? They sort of got through against the Irish and it looked for a long spell that Ireland would progress there. That went to pens and they come through and it's a similar story against Denmark. So, look, good luck to them. But, yeah, I don't think they're going to be hugely popular in terms of their style of football.

21:41There are six teams from Europe who didn't qualify for this World Cup that are higher than Czech Republic in the FIFA rankings. And it was chaos from start to end because they won both their games on playoffs, on penalties. They finished second in their group that was topped by Croatia. And in these eight games in group stage, they lost to the Faroe Islands 2-1. and they got their manager sacked. And then after the last game of the qualifiers, Suchek was stripped off captaincy because he didn't thank the fans after they beat Gibraltar. That was actually the official reason they presented on a statement.

22:18And then they appointed Miroslav Kubek, who should be actually the oldest manager in the history of World Cup. He's 74. They don't have world-class players, but they sure have grit. And they showed this, especially in the playoffs. they'll be in a group with Mexico, South Africa and South Korea. Duncan. Yeah, and I think just thinking of Denmark, well, and Ireland to an extent, but Denmark, you know, almost as big a story, I think, as Italy not going. I mean, they absolutely blew their group in the last couple of games. Obviously, that famous game at Hampden Park being the nadir for them. But then they would have expected to win this match.

22:57And, you know, they've got some great players. And I think them, I mean, if you're making your best team that won't be appearing, you know, composite team that won't be appearing at the World Cup, then Italy and Denmark are definitely worth a scour, I would say. All right. Who have you got in there from Italy? Calafuri. Right. Okay. Sandro Tonali. Tonali, yeah. Tonnarumma. Yeah, definitely Tonnarumma. I think AC can make it. I've taught myself. Oh, dear. Well, it's a shame for the Danes, but at least their neighbours will be there. Norway, who look amazing, and the Sweden side. Next up, let's ask, hey, might Sweden actually be good?

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25:55Wow, that sounded like fun. Sweden beating Poland 3-2 in their World Cup qualifying final. Victor Jokeres in the 88th minute. Joining us now to tell us all about the joy in Sweden and beyond, Frida Fagerland of Aftonbladet. Frida, hello. Hi. What was that moment like when Victor Jokic sealed your place back at the World Cup? Do you know what? It's been two days now and I'm still absolutely overwhelmed It was just one of the greatest moments of my life really Listen, fair play to Graham Potter and the way he's just got this group together and you know, with Poland actually being better for large parts of that game um yeah just a unity sweden showed and the way they just fought for each other was absolutely remarkable on an absolutely remarkable story really it is remarkable isn't it are you referring to the fact that six months ago sweden looked absolutely abject under jondal thomason and six months ago this graham potter person you referenced was being kind of face swapped out of west ham and yet together the two have made something quite remarkable.

27:11And when you think that Alexander Izak's not in there, that Kulosevsky's not in there, that you've got Ilanga playing like he used to at Forest, how good might Sweden actually be? Well, hopefully better than they were in the qualifier because, like you say, I mean, it was absolutely dreadful. And I just think we really needed a new voice, a voice of reason and Graham Potter was just that and I think if I was the Swedish Federation I would probably have been slightly hesitant about bringing in another foreign coach after Ewan Daltumansson but Graham Potter is just he's just very genuine and you know the Swedish people I would say are some of the the most cynical people in the world but we do really believe Potter when he says that he's so proud of being the national coach of Sweden and he just seems to be enjoying himself so much.

28:06So yeah, he was the right man at the right time. And I would probably, I think I would compare it to when Michael Carrick replaced Ruben Amarim. I think these players just needed someone who was calm, someone who didn't give them too much, you know, going too much into detailing, just playing basic football and just having fun again. And it sounds like a cliche, but clearly it worked and hopefully it will work at the World Cup as well. Is he seen as almost an adopted Swede, Graham Potter? Yeah, definitely. I think the one key thing about Graham Potter is that he's been very clear from the start that he's going to, you know, allow the journalists to ask questions in Swedish and he will reply in English because he feels more comfortable speaking English, but obviously he understands everything.

28:55So I think after Jundal Tomasson and the fact that he refused to speak Swedish, and I'm saying that because he's Danish, you know it wouldn't be that hard for him to learn the language really but he never really tried to do that so I think that is very much appreciated from both the Swedish media and the fans the fact that Graham Potter seems just very dedicated to this job and like I said he said that this was the best night in his whole career and I truly believe him I truly believe that he is enjoying every second of this job. He busted out the F word as well in his celebrations, which is kind of like a trademark gesture, and I know it went down well at Chelsea as well.

29:38So last time there was a World Cup in America, Sweden got all the way to third in 1994, this time in a group, a tough group, Netherlands, Japan and Tunisia. I mentioned some of the players like Kulosevski and Isaac who were out for the playoff finals, but in terms of the squad, Does Sweden have everything they need to actually make a go of it? I think that's a very difficult question, obviously. First game is key against Tunisia. I think if they can get three points there, they hopefully have a chance of progressing. But yeah, there's some weaknesses in this team, no doubt about that. But at the same time, we do have more brilliant players than just Jäkeres and Isak and Dejan Kulusevski.

30:22We've got Jasen Ayah of Brighton, who's had a brilliant season. And not many people talk about him, but they should. We do have some decent defenders as well. Gabriel Gudmundsson also had a brilliant season in the Premier League with Leeds. Karl Starfield, he's been very good in La Liga at the moment. Viktor Lindelof. So, you know, there is a team there. And I think there's a team that can actually, you know, produce results or get results. But like I said, that first game against Tanisha, definitely key, in my opinion. Yeah, and you mentioned, Frida, there's so much individual talent, you know.

30:58Sweden have a lot of good players. It's almost hard to understand how a team with so much individual quality was struggling so much. But again, says the Brazilian, you know. But anyway, when you see these players that you have available, you mentioned strengths and weaknesses. What are the main things that Sweden have to work on to advance in a tough group? But at the same time, some teams who qualify, who finish third, will qualify, will go on in this World Cup. So it is not impossible. It's a tough group, but it's very possible for Sweden, isn't it? Yeah, I think what they did very well against both Ukraine and Poland was the organization.

31:43and I think we were lacking that on Jundal Tomasson. He was just trying too hard. He was trying to turn Sweden into something we're not. We're not supposed to play brilliant football with an emphasis on the attacking play. We shouldn't do that. I'm not saying that we have to play in a 4-4-2 because we didn't under Potter in these two games, but it should definitely be an emphasis on the defence and to just work very hard. And I think that is exactly what Potter managed to do with these players over the past few weeks, that they did work hard on the pitch and they seem to be playing with so much more joy.

32:23And I know that sounds, again, it sounds ridiculous to say, but I think that is definitely needed, especially when you're going to play in the US and Mexico, where it's so insanely hot as well. It's just going to be a fight really for them. so I guess that is what we hope for and then just to get the ball up to Jörg Keres or Anthony Ilunga or anyone really who can just score a crucial goal and that's that Sounds good, Frida Excellent, enjoy the post-Tuesday buzz for as long as that lasts and we'll catch up with you again soon, I hope Oh, thank you I'm going to enjoy this for a very long time I'll tell you that Excellent, excellent Thanks a lot, Frida Brilliant Frida Fargeland of Afton Bladet Well, two more teams that have made it through to the World Cup just to finish off.

33:11That was from the Mexican international playoff bonanza thing. It was Iraq and Democratic Republic of Congo, Iraq. Only their second World Cup. They were in 1986's edition in Mexico. Duncan, a former favourite of yours involved here? Yeah, Ali Alhamadi. sort of his dad was a lawyer in Iraq and kind of stood up when during the Saddam Hussein regime and they had to flee to UK and Ali grew up in in on Merseyside sort of very strong Scouse accent and joined Wickham didn't play that much but looked a handful and went but was released and went to Wimbledon and that's where he really sort of started to shine got a big transfer to Ipswich and is currently at Luton.

33:59But yeah, he's a really good forward and definitely capable of scoring at the World Cup. I think it's one of the nicest stories of this international break and from the World Cup because it's a generation scarred by conflict and the war that Duncan mentioned that lasted from 2003 to 2011. And they have worked towards becoming a more stable state since the war ended. But the past month has sparked fears, you know, that the conflicts with Iran and the U.S. eventually become theirs as well. They had trouble logistically, even traveling. They had to travel by road to Jordan, then they fly to Europe and then to get to Mexico.

34:45And they had so much support in that game from Bolivia fans, but also from Iraqis who are just spread all over the world. So it is a really nice story to see Raq playing the World Cup since his first World Cup, their first World Cup since 1986. Excellent. In a tough group. But as you say, even some third police teams will go through France, Senegal and Norway, their opponents. Yeah. Democratic Republic of Congo beat Jamaica and a familiar name on the score sheet here as well, Adrian. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, Twan Zaby from Burnley, former Manchester United youngster, came up with the goods. There's a lot of familiar players to people that will follow sort of English football in this DR Congo side.

35:36You've got Yohan Wisser, of course. You've got Grady Diangano, who played at West Brom for a few years. Siddiqui from Sunderland. Kayembe, Watford fans will know him. Wan-Bissaka was one that kind of, not got poached, but was recruited not too long ago. And that's one of the most interesting parts, I think, of DR Congo's evolution as a team, is that they've really gone for it in terms of recruiting players that could potentially have played for England, could have played for France, could have played for other nations and maybe did at youth level, but haven't quite made it into the senior ranks.

36:15It's a former Peterborough player, Gabriel Zaccawani, who is their sort of chief schmoozer. I'm sure he's got a more interesting job title than that, but his role has been to go out and sort of sweet talk to the families of these players and to get them on board. It's really, really interesting. And they've got quite a nice-looking squad and a squad that I think can be competitive against Uzbekistan, Colombia and Portugal. and look, they've earned this because, I don't know if you saw this, they started the qualifiers in November 2023 DR Congo, so this has been a heck of a journey and yeah, I'm pleased for that, I think they'll do okay.

37:01Excellent. Iraq and Democratic Republic of Congo, the last two teams to qualify Wednesday morning UK time, the very first team to qualify were Japan and that's who England were facing on Tuesday night. We'll get On to what happened in that game and other friendly news next.

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39:29you're listening to the totally football show with james richardson now we do four times a week keep up to date with us on insta and enjoy us in glorious technicolor on youtube at the totally show harma dispossessed by the brightons mitoma and now a chance to break at speed he's gone past mainu too easily and there's space out on that far side Ueda is waiting in the centre here's Mitoma it's 1-0 Japan it's a brilliant counter-attack England 0-0 Japan 1 Tuesday night at Wembley Adrian you watched this of all the games that were taking place on Tuesday you watched what was I thinking what were you thinking first of all how good were Japan really good yeah they're a nice team they're super organised loads of energy you know it's a stereotypical Japanese style but they just seemed to sort of get around the pitch really really sharply but some of the little triangles that they played were lovely to watch they played with spirit they were hard to hard to break down and as we saw with the goal that they're brilliant on the counter you know they're fantastic side on breakaways and I think that that they will be good to watch at the World Cup finals, really dangerous team to play against.

40:46And, you know, England didn't really deserve to get anything from the game. I think they were deservedly beaten, much as they were, by the way, by Senegal in the game at the city ground. So I think that was the first African team that had beaten England, and this is the first Asian. So it's not, you know, two sort of unwanted records there for Thomas Tuchel. It's Antarctica to go now. Yeah. Yeah, only a matter of time. Their last eight games against European nations, unbeaten in 90 minutes, they beat Spain, they beat Germany twice, they beat Turkey, Scotland, and now England. The only side in this run that they didn't beat were Croatia, who they drew 1-1 where they went on to penalties, but a very tidy side and a very tidy group of supporters as well.

41:32While their fans actually were cleaning up the away end on Tuesday night post-game, there were resounding boos from the England fans. Why, Adrian? Well, it was just a fairly insipid performance. I mean, it was probably a bit better than the Uruguay performance, which did genuinely send me to sleep. I fell asleep. I was away in Cornwall for that, and I had quite a long day on the beach, you know, it had been quite breezy. I was tired. But in the second half, I did genuinely doze off, so I can't tell you too much about that. But in terms of this performance, The story to emerge, as we know, is we went with a false nine.

42:10They didn't choose a like-for-like replacement for Harry Kane. Using Phil Foden as that false nine didn't work. He kept dropping into midfield. We didn't stretch Japan. That area between defence and midfield was really crowded with Palmer in there, with Foden, who kept dropping in. And, of course, Morgan Rodgers, another number 10, was playing on the right, but he wanted to come infield as well. So it was a little bit imbalanced. And then the structure of the team wasn't great either. And I think, you know, the combination in central midfield didn't quite work with Anderson and Mainu, as you saw for the goal.

42:49You know, Mainu has lots of qualities and did some good things on the ball, but he's not that quick across the ground. You've got to be a bit more compact and not allow yourself to be stretched as a team if you're going to use someone in that key position that isn't particularly athletic. athletic so um a few things to to learn do you know do you know what one thing i sort of took away from it was that i'm not sure about nico o'reilly being the number one left back now he was brilliant against arson in the carabao cup final um he's got lots of great qualities most of which are going forward i'll tell you what in those 1v1s and from switches of play he looked really really uncomfortable and when lewis hall came on at left back he looked like a proper left back.

43:33He looked like a really sort of, he looked like an Ashley Cole style left back that's tough to beat. We've seen him in big games this season for Newcastle, really excel. I think in, when it comes to knockout games, maybe at the World Cup finals, the ones that really matter against the big, big teams, I wouldn't be surprised if it's Hall that gets the nod because I do think that he's a better defender. And the other thing, very quickly, two things, Harry Maguire came on and did really well and I personally would, would take him. I don't think there are enough good centre-backs that I would choose ahead of him, given the threat that he carries as getting on the end of Declan Rice corners.

44:12And I think his leadership's great. So Maguire, for me, is on the plane. And Palmer. Palmer got a lot of stick in this game from England supporters. But for me, he should still go. He's very much a big game player, a match winner, someone that will make those brave passes that can open up a top defence. And I think it would be crazy to leave him at home, even though he's not in great form at the moment. Yeah, I mean, I know the England fans weren't happy at the game, but I think in some ways the reaction has been quite, everyone's just sort of shrugged and gone. You know, I mean, Michael Cox pointed out that England are the only UEFA country to qualify for every World Cup this century and not need at least one playoff to do it.

44:56So even Spain had to go through a playoff at one point. so you know England they kind of just stare asleep until the tournament starts that's kind of what happened like the players are tired they've all got big games coming up in a sense and you know a financial expert will back me down on this but these games should be behind closed doors the fans shouldn't even see them it should be experimentation in a car park not in front of 80 ,000 people at Wembley behind closed doors or behind closed eyes in some people's Natalie? Yeah, I think to Duncan's point, there is a specific context to this camp, which is a lot of players involved in big things with their teams.

45:38You had injuries, you had fatigue. I know performances haven't been great, but I just want to point out as well that outside England, and from a foreign perspective, England is still seen as one of the big favourites to win the World Cup because they have the fear factor. If you look at the names, if you look at Thomas Tuchel's career and everything that he's achieved, they are seen as this big threat. From a foreign perspective, it's really interesting to follow the coverage of England and all the noise around because there are so many good players and so many other factors around England not performing.

46:22I'm still really confident. If Brazil faces England in the quarterfinals, I'm still dreading that game. Like really, really dreading. Because I was just going to ask, Natalie, we would feel the same way about Brazil. Very confident that they're going to be among the contenders at the World Cup. But maybe we're wrong. And perhaps you can tell us in a second or two, but I just want to mention on the subject of England, the goal by Max Dallman, which, Adrian, I'm sure you enjoyed when England's under-19s played Portugal and beat them 6-0. this week. Yeah, I mean, yeah, for anyone that hasn't seen it, the right back plays it up the line.

46:59He's inside his own half and he rolls the defender and then he basically goes on a charge up the pitch from inside his own half, diagonally into the centre of the goal, leaves two or three defenders trailing in his wake and slots it emphatically into the bottom corner. It's a sensational goal. The fact that it's a 16-year-old playing three years up as well, he could play for England under 16s he's playing for England under 19s that in itself means he's a special player but you know I still think I still think there's a chance very strong chance maybe not for the World Cup but that in 2026 Max Downman will play for England like I've never seen anybody certainly not anybody English that that can travel with the ball with quite as much balance and speed and quality as he can.

47:52He is extraordinary. And I think everybody is going to see that in due course. And as an impact sub, because I don't want him really starting for Arsenal in too many matches between now and the end of the season. Southampton in the Cup, yes. But in the Premier League, not sure. But as an impact sub, he would be, in my thoughts, every single game because he can produce moments of magic. and Thomas Tuchel, he will be in the head of Thomas Tuchel. I've got no doubt about it. Sometimes players are just too good to ignore. I think if he makes two or three more key contributions for Arsenal between now and the end of the season, then the clamour will be big because he is just, as you say, that game, the other players, as you say, are much older than him, just ran over to him like, well, I mean, we can't believe we've got you in this team.

48:46I mean, yeah, it's potentially extraordinary. But the counter argument is obviously he is just 16 and should be looked after. We shall see. We shall see. All right, Natalie. Other friendlies this week included Ivory Coast beating Scotland 1-0 at Hill Dickinson. Curiously enough, former Arsenal wing of Nicholas Pepe with the only goal of that game. Wales and Northern Ireland having their Magdalen affair. 1-1 that finished. USA losing 2-0 to Portugal It is Pochettino's USMNT's 8th consecutive defeat to European opposition Aye, aye, aye, aye, aye They got much European opposition coming up at the World Cup, Duncan?

49:31Well, they've got Turkey now Favourite dark horses So we don't know their complete record against dark horses But we're about to find out I mean, Pochettino A rousing speech afterwards said that none of America don't have any players in the top 100 players in the world, which might be accurate, but it's not exactly the kind of, you know, I don't think this is what the squad necessarily want to hear a few months before a home World Cup. Interesting. Brazil then, Natalie. You had the 2-1 defeat by France. Then, was it a much more satisfactory performance against Croatia on Tuesday evening? 3-1 the final score there to the Selesaou.

50:13Yes, no, definitely. But putting into context, Brazil didn't have six of their starters, including the full back line. So Alisson was out, Militão, Marquinhos played only against Croatia. He wasn't available against France. Gabriel, Alexandro, Bruno Guimarães, and Estevão. So it would be hard to face a team like France, who is arguably the best squad in the world alongside Spain, with a front line of Dembele, Olize, Echitique, Mbappé. The main problem against France was the lack of creative power, especially in the first half. They had Upamecano sent off early on the second half. And like Brazilian proof, they weren't able to capitalize.

50:51And the reaction from the Brazilian media was massively overblown. as it's usually the case. Criticism to Ancelotti, a section of the fans calling for Neymar to be on the squad. But then came Croatia and things settled down because it was a good performance against the team that beat us in Qatar. Croatia still had 13 players from that last World Cup. Like even if they didn't have important names like Vardio and Kovacic who are not available. Hendrik played in the second half. He changed the dynamic of the game and he suffered a penalty and gave an assist to Gabriel Martinelli, he became the big question mark for the final list, definitely.

51:32Igor Thiago took the penalty, scored for Brazil for the first time and is another question mark for Carlo Ancelotti as well. So these are the two names that really emerged for Brazil this international break. OK. And Croatia are going to be England's first opponents at the World Cup. What did they look like? They're a very good team. I think Brazil performed really well in the first half. So I think they were able to be patient with Croatia. Croatia had a lot of the ball. So that was important for Brazil. In the second half, they were a bit better. Croatia, Brazil in the first half were more aggressive.

52:12So they were able to handle Croatia quite well. But the truth is Brazil only won the game in the final minutes. And they have a really good midfield. Actually, there's a really good moment for Mancelotti embracing Modric after the final whistle. And him saying, do you have any Brazilian grandfathers? So that was lovely. But I think there's an important element in those two games that Brazil should carry for this World Cup. It's to know how to be humble. because against France, they were very cautious, even though they should have tried more in the first half specifically. But against Croatia, they were, as I told you, patient with the ball.

52:56And Ancelotti said that he doesn't like to be seen as a defensive manager, but he wants a balanced team. And as much as you always expect Brazil to play offensive football, the top teams like Croatia, like France, they progressed much more in the past four years than Brazil did. So you need to be solid and you need to know how to use the speed of your players in transitions. Of course, Brazil is not going to play transitional football all the time or half the time, to be fair. But they need to know how to do it and they need to be humble enough to identify the situations. And I think they show that.

53:27OK, is he going to take Neymar? I don't think so. Honestly, it's a topic that really divides Brazil because people feel very strongly either for or against it. But the truth is, he made it clear from day one that he wants players that are physically well. And as much as he's not injured, he doesn't have the intensity. And the argument is that he can decide things in one ball. But can he really? He hasn't shown consistency in playing for a very long time. So I think I would be surprised if he took Neymar, honestly. Well, I'm delighted for Igor Thiago. I remember a time when you'd look forward to World Cup because countries like Brazil and Argentina.

54:10And there'd be players that you'd heard about, but you'd never seen. and there's something Brentford centre-forward playing for Brazil is both fun and slightly like, what have we become? Crushing note from Duncan. Come on, we're positive after Croatia, Duncan. Get on board. No, no, I'm positive about him. I'm just saying he plays, you know, he plays in a houndslow. So where's the glamour? Where's the sort of mysterious glamour of, you know, notting a goal against Burnley? But, you know. All right. You'll have Uzbekistan and Cape Verde and other treats. True. Duncan. Amongst other things. Plus the joy of sharing an apartment with me.

54:54That is true. That's the real romance. Indeed so. Right. Next up, let's get on to some other top matches. The FA Cup quarterfinals. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network. We've got two of the final four in the Women's Champions League sorted. Arsenal are going to be there. They lost to Chelsea at Stamford Bridge on Wednesday night, 1-0. But it wasn't enough to overturn their first leg deficits as they go through. Man United conceded two goals in the 80th and 84th minute to lose 5-3 on aggregate to Bayern Munich. So Bayern go through. This evening Barcelona will almost certainly join them.

55:38They are playing Real Madrid, but they're already leading 6-2 from the first leg. And the other game is Lyon against Wolfsburg, with Wolfsburg 1-0 from their first encounter. Now, this was mentioned and explored fairly thoroughly on Monday, but Roberto De Zerbi's appointment at Tottenham has now been confirmed, complete with a very full statement from the Italian manager, who has signed a five-year contract with, according, certainly to the Italian press, not sure what they're saying in England but including wide-ranging responsibilities for a kind of Sir Alex Ferguson style role at the North London Club.

56:19I like the fact that they've called it the Alex Ferguson clause like he's still seen as this sort of all-powerful dictator style manager so anyone that gets any powers similar to that is yeah it's good. I thought I thought it was just too much for a modern day manager to do or modern day head coach to do to to sort of busy themselves with the everyday mechanics of of transfers etc which is why we've got all these sporting directors but but look we'll see how it goes five year a five-year deal seems excessive for for a guy that's you know known for short sharp bursts with with clubs I do think he's a very good coach I think they've recruited an excellent coach, but the volatility that he brings means almost certainly that it will crash and burn at some point.

57:09It's just, you know, is that going to be when Spurs are a Premier League club or not? We'll have to wait and see. But, you know, I think that they got the best that they could have got in this situation. And I think they've got a far better chance of staying up now than they did under Igor Chudu. So let's see. I'm interested to see how the mood is going to be because, of course, there are, as Dan Kilpatrick mentioned in a previous episode, there are a few sections of the fan base that are against Di Zerbi's appointment for his open support to Mason Greenwood in his time at Marseille. The first game is away, Sutherland, so that could set a good tone depending on how they will perform.

58:00And I think what most people are curious about is how fast he can apply his ideas. And by my experience talking to players who have played under De Zerbi, I think two things stand out. First, the players who like them love them. Like he's the tough love kind of manager. It doesn't work for every player, but the players who like him really get on board with it and the style of play. And as complex and entertaining as it looks from the outside, what I've heard from a few players is that once you understand the process, it becomes very easy. But the tricky part is once you understand what he wants and they don't have much time.

58:46So I think that's the most interesting thing about the appointment. All right, Natalie, we shall see. Sunderland awaits, but that's the weekend after this, because next up it is the FA Cup. Starting off on Saturday, lunchtime with Manchester City against Liverpool. At 5.15 on Saturday, Chelsea have their first game against Port Vale in 97 years. Eight o 'clock on Saturday, Southampton Arsenal. And then on Sunday, West Ham host Leeds. Ooh, that West Ham-Leeds game is a forerunner of the final game of the season for those two teams. A match which, when that comes around, could even be a relegation-placed decider.

59:28So, yeah. Does that make this tie charged with significance? Charged with something. It's at 4.30 on Sunday, so, yeah. Good luck. Yeah, look, I don't know. It's not the priority for either club, but you're still one game away from a Wembley FA Cup semi-final. I think you've got to go for it, right? They've had a rest. They've had plenty of time to go over things during the international break. These managers have had players on international duty, but not all of them. So look, they may as well go for it here. And I've got to say that Leeds, I would fancy Leeds. They're unbeaten in six. away from home.

1:00:15And this is, I had to double check this stack because I was looking at it. They've been drawing or winning coming into the 90th minute of their last 11 away games. Leeds United. They've not trailed in any of their last 11 on the road until potentially the 90th minute. So they are tough to beat. And West Ham, this is a West Ham team that have one shot and target at Villa and have one shot and target against Manchester City. So, yeah, I kind of think that Leeds can maybe grind this one out. How many of those 11 did they go on to not lose? They lost to Newcastle, didn't they, with a last-minute goal or two last-minute goals.

1:00:59They lost to Manchester City. That run goes all the way back to the game against Manchester City where they famously sort of changed their system. So, most of those games, they've either drawn or won and a lot of them have been, well, they were high scoring and they've gradually, the goals have dried up for and against in recent times for Leeds. So they're a pretty solid proposition. West Ham are going to be, they're going to be reliant, aren't they, on Bowen and I don't know whether Somerville's going to be fit to play, but we'll see. We'll see. Unbeaten in 14 games. I mean, what are Southampton who host Arsenal, eight o 'clock on Saturday.

1:01:38Arsenal who've either been hit by an injury crisis over the international break, or by what some countries term the FIFA virus. No, less than 11 players withdrawing from their national teams. Is there a genuine problem there for Arsenal, or is that just a little bit of, oh, my back hurt? No, I don't see this as a positive. I see this as a bit of a, you know, bad times, genuinely. Because they've been assessed by the international teams and their medical staff and deemed not ready. So for me, it's a little bit of a crisis. I suspect that the Gabriel and Saliba ones will maybe be the more sort of minor end.

1:02:20But look, Eze missed the cup final. He's out. Timber missed the final. He's out. Saka is running on fumes. Rice never misses a game. So there must be something amiss with him. I think Rice and Saka have been carrying injuries for a while. You know, Zubamendi, Hincapié, you know, they were all ruled out legitimately while away. So, no, this is sort of bad. And I think a lot of them will miss the Southampton game, hopefully. They'll be back for sporting, or some of them will be back for sporting, and certainly for Bournemouth, which is obviously the next Premier League game. So, yeah, this is far from ideal, trust me.

1:02:59Madueke, I would expect him to play the FA Cup. He had a knee brace. And I think it's going to be a big month for Arsenal because they have both games, both quarterfinals from the Champions League and Premier League, of course, with Manchester City coming on the 19th of April. So, yeah, we'll see. All right. Southampton, who, as mentioned, have been doing very nicely indeed. Tonda Eckert took over from Will Still down there. Chelsea take on the lowest-ranked team left in the competition, Port Vale. Duncan, you've recently seen in action, Port Vale. yeah watched them play Wickham last weekend and they were absolutely abysmal like I think possibly the most pathetic away performance I've ever seen it's definitely up there now it could be because they are bottom of league one they haven't had a great season or they have improved in recent months it could be that their players are all thinking if I get injured or a red card in this game then I miss the big trip to Chelsea so that I think there definitely was an element of that but they looked very very poor um yeah i think this is obviously one of those games where we did some analysis on the athletic last month looking at which teams do actually get favorable draws because there's obviously a feeling that that chelsea do uh historically get a lot of home ties in the fa cup and a lot of efl teams and and they do sometimes but they have had some of the hardest runs to the cup final as well to counter it and guess what these draws are random so it is it's random but i mean obviously chelsea have not been in good form in recent weeks and there's a lot of bad news stories in and around the club at the moment but if they can't beat this port veil team then it's fully fledged 24 carat crisis yeah yeah they've found four games in a row since beating wrexham and after inzo fernandez marco correa is beginning the latest chelsea player to publicly question the change of manager and a very revealing interview that um that the athletic have right now online adrian yeah look there's a brilliant interview absolutely superb and very revealing you know because it we we all think it as as sort of neutrals or non-chelsea supporters i think even chelsea fans see it everybody outside of the ownership those that created the model see it um but this is this is one of their senior players saying that that you know as a senior player i feel discouraged by the model that's that's what he said i understand this is part of the club's policy they want to take this direction signing young players look into the future but for all of us who are still here and want to win big things moments like this make you feel discouraged.

1:05:53Now, I would say that it's quite a bad policy if you're discouraging your best, most important, most valuable senior players, of which Cucurella is one. So, you know, I really do think that Chelsea should have a little bit of a rethink if they want to be competitive as an actual football team rather than as a business. And very quickly on Port Vale, they've failed to score in 53 % of their matches in League One this season which is a lot it's the most 20 blanks from 38 league games so yeah Chelsea really shouldn't be conceding here although we are 25 years since Wickham beat Leicester at this stage of the FA Cup but there's no Roy Essendon in Port Vale's squad although they do have a very nice kit which people should enjoy So plain and simple and effective.

1:06:52It's inspired by the 1954 Port Vale side that reached the FA Cup semi-finals. Makes you think. Well, they are one game away themselves as they head to Stamford Bridge. Prior to that, 12.45 on Saturday, it is Manchester City against Liverpool for the third time this campaign. They've already done a league double over Liverpool, have Pep's side. they've also last time out just beaten Arsenal in the League Cup final looking very impressive back to the City of old Natalie Yeah, I'm intrigued to see how City will tackle the rest of the season after not only winning silverware but the way they performed in the Carabao Cup final because they showed real maturity and I remember I asked Bernardo Silva how do you see this team for a final in terms of maturity before the game and he was very honest saying you know that's a good question because I really don't know They seem to have taken an important step in terms of the project and the team's progress.

1:07:51And I imagine Pep will start James Trafford because he's the keeper in the Cubs. And I can't imagine how intense these days were to Donnarumma as the captain for Italy. So good thing on resting, giving Donnarumma a bit of rest. And as for Liverpool, we'll have Salah making his first game after he announced he's not staying. And it's interesting because we've seen recently Casemiro's performances after he announced he wouldn't be staying at Man United. I actually asked him about it and he said it's not related because he played other matches before where he knew that he was going to leave, but it wasn't public yet, that it's not connected.

1:08:32But he also said that you enjoy things more. You enjoy the day to day. You enjoy coming to the training ground. And with Salah, you know, this can be the case. Maybe he'll be able to let go of things now that he knows he's not staying. It will be interesting to see this last couple of months. OK, well, that's the game that kicks things off for us in the FA Cup quarterfinals. The final one is West Ham against Leeds. And sometime after that concludes, might well be going to extra time from what Adrian was saying. We'll be doing a totally football show on Sunday evening, rounding up all of that and any other news that might have cropped up over the days to come.

1:09:12Hope you'll join us for that. Of course, we'll be doing it live on YouTube as well if you want to follow that. For now, though, that brings us to the end of today's show. So many thanks to Natalie, to Duncan, to Adrian, to producers Lucy and Shavi, and to you, listener. Been great to have you with us. We're back on Sunday evening, stroke Monday morning. Do hope you have a good weekend in the meantime. But for now, from all of us here, it's goodbye.

1:09:39you've been listening to the totally football show part of the athletic fc podcast network for other great podcasts just like this one including the athletic fc and our dedicated club podcasts search for the athletic in all the usual places we're also at the totally show on insta and at the totally show on youtube the totally football show is an athletic media Company production.

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