Liverpool lose in Istanbul while Spurs survive Bodo battering

0:00The Athletic FC.

0:30Duncan Alexander: debut with West Ham on Monday and which motorway exit David Moyes really meant when he warned Paul Jewell. We'll talk about all that and more in this Totally Football Show.

0:43Duncan Alexander: Wednesday the 1st of October and hello everybody welcome to Totally Extra. Got Duncan Alexander, Charlie Eccleshire and Michael Cox in the house or rather in their houses as everyone's remote for this one. Hello. Hello. Hi. Hello. Nice. We've got Jay Harris also joining us shortly. He's very remote. He'll be dialing in from Bodo in Norway where Spurs had that dramatic late 2-2 draw of course on Tuesday night in the Champions League. Did you enjoy Tuesday night broadly speaking Michael?

1:20Jay Harris: No not really. I think the wrong game to watch. What did you watch? against Benfica. I found that incredibly dull but he's box office Michael how could you find it boring

1:33Michael Cox: he went on the pitch briefly

1:35James Richardson: can't deny that Michael

1:37Jay Harris: I looked at the fixture list and I thought it was quite a bad list of fixtures so I went for this one and then I saw the goals coming in from all the other grounds I've definitely picked almost every other game looks quite fun and I've picked the wrong one and there's no worse feeling than that than knowing you've picked the least interesting game. You could have changed, surely. No, I... Because if you change, if you change, you know what happens, Duncan. There would have been four goals in the game and he just left. Also, to be honest, I'm going to blame this podcast because Charlie said, what game are you watching?

2:11Jay Harris: And I said, well, I'll do the Chelsea one. And if I then missed all the action in the Chelsea one, because I was like, oh no, sorry, I wanted to see Galatasaray, then it would have ruined this podcast, obviously.

2:22Duncan Alexander: All right. Did Tuesday go any better for you, Charlie, were you living it up with Liverpool or Spurs while Michael was taking one for the team?

2:30James Richardson: Yeah, it did go pretty well. I had the, I have to say, I really enjoyed the, I mean, there was a lot going on. I had Galatasaray Liverpool, which was pretty eventful and felt quite old school Champions League with a very kind of hostile atmosphere. And then I second screened the Birdo Spurs game, which was, I mean, it was, I thought Spurs were pretty, bad for a lot of it but came back into it so I guess you've got to you know commend their their spirit but um yeah Galatasaray Liverpool was I mean it was for Liverpool they they didn't really get going um but Galatasaray were really good um you know they they really did a number

3:11Duncan Alexander: on them and really deserved to win as you might expect from a team that spent that much money over the summer Duncan you were across Liverpool as well yes I was um I looked at the fixtures

3:23Michael Cox: and saw Chelsea were at home in the Champions League and was like, that's not going to be a very good game. So used knowledge. But yeah, the Liverpool game, as Charlie says, kind of felt like a bit of a throwback to the sort of 2000s or something with the atmosphere, Liverpool kind of looking completely out of sorts, a few decisions that could have gone either way as well. And I mean, I guess the only thing that makes it very, very 2025 is the fact that, you know, there's not really any jeopardy at the moment, is there? Because, you know, Spurs... I did have an eye on the other games and, like, Spurs grabbing the ball when they'd equalised.

4:02Michael Cox: It's like, the jaw's fine. Don't worry about it. And the same with Liverpool. Like, they, you know, they've lost, but they're going to be fine, I'm sure.

4:09Duncan Alexander: We shall see. Tuesday night scores in four. Liverpool went to Istanbul and lost 1-0 to Galatasaray. First time that slot side have failed to score in a game since March. Spurs went to top-8 Bodo Glimt, just south of Santa's Grotto, went two goals down to the brilliant Jens Betahaga, but fought their way back for a draw. Jose was back at Stamford Bridge, where Chelsea made him feel welcome with a boring 1-0 win. The goal from Richard Rios, who deflected Garnaccio's low cross into his own net. Zero Mourinho truth bombs or anything like that in the post-game press conference, I think, but we'll check on that very, very shortly.

4:48Duncan Alexander: elsewhere. Inter beat Slavia Prague 3-0. Marseille who beat PSG in Ligue 1 a week ago continued their excellent form by thumping Ajax 4-0. There was a goal and two assists for Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang who can still do the somersault at 36 years of age. Bayern were 5-1 winners at Cypriot side. Pafos who somehow you have to feel sorry for. And yes, Harry Kane got a brace. And it was 5-1 for Atletico Madrid 2 at home to Eintracht Frankfurt. Atletico scoring 5 for the second game in a row. They're going to be Arsenal's opponents in round 3. Real Madrid, the team who Atletico beat 5-2 at the weekend in the derby, themselves in the early game, one of the early games, went to Almaty in Kazakhstan and had an Almaty win.

5:38Duncan Alexander: 5-0 against Kairat. Kylian Mbappe got a hat-trick. He's already on 5 for the competition. and the other early game saw Atalanta come from behind to beat Club Bruges 2-1. To Istanbul! This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson,

5:54Charlie Eccleshare: part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network.

6:17Charlie Eccleshare: The first champion of the league in Galatasaray is the first champion. And the goal is to get the goal. The goal is to get the goal of the game. Victor! Osiris! Victor! Osiris! Victor! Osiris! Victor! Osiris!

6:38Jay Harris: Victor! Osiris!

6:42Duncan Alexander: Celebrations there in Istanbul after Victor Ozymen's penalty. A quarter of an hour in put Galatasaray a goal up against Liverpool. And that's how it stayed. Two defeats in four days for Liverpool. That adds up to what happened this time and how concerned should Liverpool fans be? Duncan.

7:06Michael Cox: A growing sense of concern. Yeah, and it feels like me and Charlie have been on a lot of podcasts in the last few weeks together saying, well, we can't tell yet whether the sort of run of late winners was, you know, a team paper over the cracks or the sign of champions. And we might be, it might be more the former than the latter, I think. I mean, they could have easily got a draw out of this, you know, had some chances. But just the amount of times they gave the ball away, like Canate, the midfields has got a huge hole in it. is you know i think we're starting to see the impact of not having trent anexander ronald as well and the florian verts he's you know still hasn't got a goal or assist for liverpool in the in the premier legal champions league and they just don't look like a functioning team at the moment um and it weirdly it's almost like the only team that's kind of paid them the respect that they probably don't deserve this is in his arsenal in that game and they were quite defensive you wonder if arson had really sort of gone for it whether they could have just won that one but Yeah, it is a growing problem, I would say.

8:06James Richardson: That might be looked back on, do you remember in Moyes' United season, when Chelsea, Mourinho's Chelsea went there and got a nil-nil early on, and it was like, yeah, it's a decent point away at the Champions, and then everyone was winning there. It was like, yeah, maybe they should have just gone and won, like West Brom and Everton and Newcastle, and everyone did. Yeah, I mean, it was funny, though, because on that note, Duncan, what we've been talking about, is this papering over the cracks? Is this sign of Champions? the commentary team were very much on the well you know in a way we know we should have seen this coming because they were really bad actually at the start of the season it was kind of like but what about all the sign of champions stuff that you were all saying I mean it was kind of like the worst Liverpool played the more the title was going to be a procession because if they won when playing this badly then imagine when they start playing well but yeah it was kind of a continuation I mean I thought the defensive stuff we've sort of seen and become familiar with i actually thought how sort of meh they look going forward was almost the bigger or the newer fresher concern um and it's a classic one of those ones as well where when you've got mo salah who started every single premier league game last season and was basically scoring or assisting or often both you know pretty much every game that it's a lot easier if you're then cody gacpo or whoever and you know saying and you know don't forget what cody gacpo is doing he's contributing too all of a sudden when Salah's not starting and you're then relying on those players that's very different and I really didn't think they had much of a threat obviously as Dung says the Vietz thing becomes a bit more under scrutiny now because they're not winning whereas when they're winning and he's not scoring or assisting it doesn't matter so much but yeah it was it was really pretty bad actually um and they're slightly in that space of you kind of know when a team you know is sort of struggling or hasn't has issues with its squad where I kept sort of thinking like are they missing players like who are they missing here like is there like a great right back to come in it's like no their options are kind of Bradley and Frimpong and I guess Sobber Sly like there just are some gaps there and you know maybe they'll be okay and maybe Frimpong you know who's sort of learning that role on the job he actually played further forward on the wing yesterday but yeah I think that there are definitely some issues there for Arna Slott to think about in a way he hasn't you know he hasn't there's never bit since he's come in it's been such a just basically

10:31Michael Cox: continued upward trajectory and it raises the question you know was last year's title win a sort of muscle memory clock team win or was you know and it's a really there's no right answer

10:41Duncan Alexander: and it you know clearly well no clearly he loses two games in a row now you're basically asterisking his debut Premier League victory.

10:50Michael Cox: I'm not, but Liverpool's best form last season was in the first half of the season in the league. Other than that, defeat to Forest.

10:56Duncan Alexander: They formed tailed off once they'd wrapped up the title. It is true. And I guess that some of the tiredness is maybe one of the reasons why he made the decision to rotate a little bit, start with Mo Salah on the bench. Possibly, do you think he was influenced by the fact that Galatasaray had been beaten 5-1 in their opening Champions League match? And he maybe wasn't expecting them to be all that. What did you make of the Turkish champions?

11:19James Richardson: I thought they were great. I mean, these matches, obviously, it does make a massive difference when a team like that has a lead to defend from very early because then they, you know, they're snapping into tackles. They've got a fan base who's so behind them and is, you know, incredibly loud whenever Liverpool had the ball. And they had a threat on the counter as well. I mean, they could have put this game away. But partly, I mean, Liverpool helped them out. You know, they were giving the ball away and sort of making pretty basic errors, defended well. I mean, it's that classic thing. You know, you see someone like Davinson Sanchez, who by the end of his time at Spurs was often derided, had a really good game.

11:56James Richardson: I mean, you've got Lucas Torreira in the middle of midfield for them, kind of snapping into tackles. So it is this kind of, you know, a lot of these Premier League cast-offs. But yeah, I thought they were great. And as I said, I think they really deserve to win the game.

12:10Duncan Alexander: Losing the match is one thing, but was it even more important the fact that they also lost Alisson and Eketike to injury Liverpool?

12:17James Richardson: Yeah, I mean, Eketike, I saw James Pearce from The Athletic tweeting that the initial thought was it was more cramp than anything more serious. I mean, it's funny because I thought it looked like potentially a fairly bad one. And then Alisson slots already ruled out of the weekend. And I know, you know, people say, well, they did have some injuries our season. Of course they had some injuries, but it's, you know, when your best players are starting every Premier League game, I think it's fair to say they, you know, I'm not suggesting it's luck. they had a very good injury record. And I wonder then if they were to have a run of injuries, if that's sort of more challenging, if you've kind of come off a season where you haven't had to do so much of that.

12:55James Richardson: But yeah, we'll see. I mean, they've obviously got a very good replacement for Alisson anyway. And if Eka TK is not serious, then maybe it's a bit misleading. But yeah, it did feel like a bit of one of those nights where kind of everything they wouldn't have wanted to happen sort of did. It was pretty bad.

13:12Michael Cox: marma dashfully obviously came on and his distribution looked a bit more functional than allison's i'd say um and i think liverpool fans were keen to see the the isak eketike combination but i mean eketike went off what four or five minutes after isak came on and isak only had four touches of the ball in in his 30 minutes on the pitch so yeah um it was just one of the it's if it was just one of those nights that they can write off and you know they they come fifth in the Champions League league stage and get through and no one will ever remember this game again really but I think it's more the context of last weekend as well and obviously going to Chelsea at the weekend.

13:49James Richardson: Alisson does also, I don't know how conscious or otherwise it is but he does allow them to take risks defensively and to push up kind of in the knowledge that it's a calculated risk that he's so good at one-on-ones that he will bail you out a lot and he does and he has already this season.

14:05Michael Cox: He essentially got injured in a one-on-one. Exactly, yeah. It was a weird injury because he went down and he was like, straight away, he was like, yeah, I'm done. It's like, but I don't know how you do your hamstring sort of diving on the ground, really.

14:17Duncan Alexander: Yeah, it was strange. He'll certainly be out for Saturday's trip to Stamford Bridge. There's two clean sheets in 10 games for Liverpool. Luckily, they'll be playing a team that has spent about a billion pounds, but checks notes. Has Tyrek George up front currently? Michael, the side that Liverpool will be facing on Saturday, fresh from a 1-0 victory against Benfica. Were they the better side of this game, Chelsea?

14:44Jay Harris: Not really. I don't think they were the better side at 0-0. I think Benfica looks pretty good on the break. They got a lot of players forwards. Benfica's defensive shape was quite good. The goal kind of came out of nothing, really. Just a slightly crazy own goal from Richard Rios. And I just thought Chelsea looked really disjointed. They still, to me, look as if their attackers are just not on the same wavelength as one another. There's no real relationships there in the final thirds. I like the look of Tyreek George, but he really struggled to get the ball in dangerous positions. Had to come very short to get it.

15:20Jay Harris: Yeah, there wasn't too much. There wasn't too many positives, I didn't think, from this game from Chelsea's perspective. Aside from, obviously, the result. But it is weird watching them. They still just look, considering how much money they've spent, they do have some obvious weaknesses. I know that the centre-forward position, they've got two good options now with De Lappe and João Pedro, but neither of them has completely nailed down a place just yet. And in goal, I mean, I still don't really understand what Robert Sanchez is doing there. I mean, he basically got dropped for Brighton. You know, he got dropped for Brighton when they brought in Steele because his distribution was better.

15:56Jay Harris: I think he actually was just a better goalkeeper. And yet he's just still the number one at Chelsea. Obviously, it's not like a six-month stopgap thing. They're going into another season with Robert Sanchez as their goalkeeper. I find them a very strange team to watch. I mean, obviously, when Cole Palmer's fit, it's all about him. He is a player who can win games on his own and I think uses his freedom to make others better as well. I think he's quite a selfless player in some ways. But when he's not playing, yeah, it's slightly difficult to work out what they're all about. And in general, this game was...

16:29Jay Harris: it was so it felt like one of those games where the players were all more concerned with getting each other into trouble than actually trying to play football it was so scrappy it was so bitty yeah it felt to me like I don't do it very often but when I do watch a Copa Libertadores game and I'm like cool South American football this will be really exciting and loads of flit and it's just like players going around like kicking each other and diving and just a bit of a pantomime it felt like that but also with very little goal action um and also as duncan alluded to it's still slightly difficult to work out what these kind of games mean i mean when it was a group stage not only are you getting the win you're inflicting a defeat on someone who's a direct rival and i think that actually is quite a big part of it when it's just you're winning but you don't really know where you stand in relation to everyone else it just all felt a bit um a bit flat really aside from of course the excitement of Mourinho's return.

17:26Duncan Alexander: Right. So how much did that deliver? He came out quite late. There was a chant for him. He was quite polite in the press conference. He did go over and calm the Benfica fans when they were lobbing stuff at Enzo Fernandes. Other than that, on the kind of scale of one to if I speak, how would you rate the Mourinho performance?

17:47Jay Harris: Well, I think when it was if I speak, that was the Mourinho where he was still fairly bold and I think he liked being the pantomime villain. I got the impression now that this is a Mourinho who's been quite damaged by his last few jobs. And actually, he really just wanted to be liked. Like, the whole thing was really kind of stage-managed in terms of the press conferences and him greeting elderly members of staff who've retired but got wheeled out so Mourinho could say hello to them. And there was a great moment at the end. I say great in inverted commas. where there was a stray ball on the pitch.

18:26Jay Harris: And just the absolute delight that he had the opportunity to stray 10 yards onto the pitch and get a big cheer from the home fans.

18:33Charlie Eccleshare: Into an eighth minute of added time. Two balls on the pitch. And Josez managed to get himself on the pitch, much to the delight of the Chelsea fans.

18:44Jay Harris: It was slightly odd. It's really not the Mourinho of old. It's almost like his, you know, not farewell tour, but it had that kind of vibe of, you know. Yeah, he just wants the applause. He just wants to be, he really wants to be liked. And maybe that has been the case all along, but we're certainly seeing it in a more blatant way these days, I think.

19:07Michael Cox: There's a very good kind of roundup of Mourinho's night on the Athletics today from Stuart James. And the most startling thing at the end was that someone who used to work at Chelsea, who retired in 2024, came back for the night because Mourinho was back and brought him after the game custard creams. And Mourinho said the best cookies in London. A, they're not a cookie. And it made me smile because like, you know, people in London, particularly sort of 10, 15 years ago, were very into pastel de natas. It's like, oh, this is a real sort of, you know, this is the custard-based delicacy that we should be enjoying.

19:40Michael Cox: But the idea that Mourinho is actually just plowing through, you know, Sainsbury's custard creams is uh is a sort of prosaic side to him that i never really considered yeah as

19:51Duncan Alexander: jose arriving with this european sophisticate way back then now reveals that his top choices are best biscuit custard creams best pundit in the world joe cole

20:03James Richardson: charlie you wanted to say something well that yeah i just mean like that what duncan's just described is kind of exactly what michael was getting at with the kind of stage manager i mean that whole that whole sort of confected scenario is basically to send the kind of pure class merchants into overdrive isn't it i mean that is like that's basically where we've been headed with classy touch since the beginning jose marino and a kind of beloved veteran figure at the club and and all of this and and it's yeah it's kind of nice wholesome content but i think yeah that demonstrates Coxsey's point pretty well but that's that's sort of his slightly ceremonial role now

20:45Jay Harris: I mean it is increasingly difficult I find with people involved in football who know that everything they do on a match day is being filmed to work out what is a genuine classy touch and what is the fact that they're being filmed and they know they have to be classy maybe this is a really obvious thing to say and I think in general a lot of football managers in particular get to where they are because they're actually very good at people and they are very generally quite good at interacting with you know ordinary people so to speak but this this did strike me as just completely completely artificial from start to finish but the key thing with all of these

21:19James Richardson: things is that like emotion and jeopardy takes that away and that even with the best will in the world it's hard to do classy touches and things like that but when you're in a group stage like this where the jeopardy's gone it's far easier to have that because like last night was not a hugely emotionally charged night for all the reasons we've said. So I think that just feeds into this even more.

21:42Duncan Alexander: What's it like that saw Chelsea pick up a red card for the third game in a row? This one didn't have too much bearing on the match because it happened pretty much in the dying seconds of the game. But Jean-Pierre will now be suspended for Chelsea's next Champions League fixture. kind of brings us on to one question which has been puzzling a lot of Chelsea supporters, which is where's the planning up front with De Lapp now sadly injured and as you mentioned, Cole Palmer not available, Nkunku gone, Broglie gone, Nicholas Jackson gone. He scored actually for Bayern away in Cyprus on Tuesday night.

22:18Duncan Alexander: The club have left themselves in a bit of a pickle.

22:21James Richardson: Yeah, I mean, they'd probably think that with two very good centre forwards, that's enough. And I think if they had more, we'd probably be accusing them of stockpiling and, you know, having a bloated, bulging squad, which has been an issue for them before. I think, again, I mean, yeah. So, yes, they'll be short for this game. I think broadly, you know, assuming De Laap's able to recover okay, then they should be all right in that respect. I mean, defensively, though, as well, they are short and, you know, at centre-back and they go into the game against Liverpool with Chalibur suspended. I think that will be...

22:56James Richardson: a big worry for them as well, that they just, they do seem to like numbers there. And obviously the Colwell ACL is a big factor and that's really, really unfortunate for them and for him.

23:05Duncan Alexander: That is a game that for both sides has a very clearly perceivable amount riding on it. This Saturday at Stamford Bridge.

23:14James Richardson: Yeah, definitely is. I mean, I think that's pretty big for Liverpool. If they go into the international break off the back of three bad results, you know, then I think we are entering, I mean, obviously in the context of everything's blown out of all proportion, but kind of not crisis. But, you know, this is Slott's first big real challenge. If they win it, you know, go away to Stamford Bridge and win, then we're probably saying, well, yeah, you know, it was a blip, you know, in a game, in a Champions League game that probably won't matter. And Palace are really good. So I think it will really frame how they are talked about for that two week international break.

23:46James Richardson: I mean, the fact that Chelsea are missing, you know, a few important players you'd think would give Liverpool a chance. but the way I see Liverpool at the moment I just can't see how Chelsea won't create quite a few good chances I really I really struggle to imagine that Liverpool will go there and just lock down and keep them out so then it comes down to can Chelsea take them that and that I have no real certainty or confidence in I think that element could go either way but it is odd to be talking about the champions and the favourites for the title that you'll you expect basically every game they're going to give up a load of big chances and you know for Chelsea I mean it feels like a long time ago but people were talking about them at the start of the season as like could they you know be a title contender what they're world champions well exactly they were the world champions and you know that feels a bit fanciful now already so if they were to get a bad result then that's a pretty bad start to the season likewise if they were to you know get a win then maybe that changes expectations around them.

24:46Duncan Alexander: Yeah, lose and they'll be 10 points behind Liverpool. We'll have a look at the Premier League weekend in general in Thursday's Totally Football Show. Next up today, let's join Jay Harris for what happened to Spurs away at Bodo Glimt on Tuesday.

25:09Charlie Eccleshare: This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli Kay and the very best football writers around.

25:23Duncan Alexander: Tuesday night up inside the Arctic Circle. It was Bodo Glimp 2, Tottenham 2. Jay Harris was there and he joins us now. Jay, how's Bodo?

25:34Charlie Eccleshare: Yeah, it's really good, thanks. It's my first time here. I missed the Europa League semi-final second leg. It's a very quaint little town, but they pack a punch on the pitch more than I was expecting.

25:45Duncan Alexander: Indeed so. A very different trip for Tottenham to the one they had there at the end of last season. 2-0 the victory on that occasion, but they were lucky to get a point here.

25:54Charlie Eccleshare: They were really lucky. This is actually the third time in their last four games where Spurs have conceded first and then they've scored quite a dramatic equaliser. I'd say against and particularly and maybe even against Wolves they probably deserved it I don't think they did deserve it last night I think Bodo Glimton can be and should be really furious that they threw away a win basically although the fans were so proud of the team at full time just from the opening minute you could just sort of sense that Spurs were not really awake there was this really like frenetic firework display before kickoff and Spurs were just they were just not not there so many passes were bad and The touches were just shoddy.

26:34Charlie Eccleshare: This kept moving the ball from side to side. I think it was in the fourth minute when a left-back Bjorken picks up the ball, barges past Porro, gets away from this tackle from Bergwau, and Patrick Berg just fires this slinging shot, and it just set the tone immediately. And I've no idea how Spurs were nil-nil at halftime. Kasper Hoff blazes that penalty over the bar. But when Spurs survived, you're thinking, surely Thomas Frank's going to make a couple of changes at halftime because this performance is woeful. And it somehow got even worse.

27:05Duncan Alexander: How surreal was it watching this side from the kind of Hans Christian Andersen-esque fishing port dismantle the mighty Premier League Tottenham Hotspur?

27:15Charlie Eccleshare: So where, you know, I think the stadium capacity is only about 8 ,000 people. So where the press box is, you're basically just sat right behind, obviously a very boisterous set of fans. And it looked like two of them were welling up when Horga scored the first goal. They were just so, I guess, amazed that Bodo Glimp were leading against the Premier League team, you know, on course to win a Champions League game and just fully deserved. The way Hauger scored both of those goals, just sort of breezing past Pedro Porro, who's a Spain international. Second one in particular was, you know, a fantastic finish in the bottom corner.

27:48Charlie Eccleshare: Atmosphere is electric. When Spurs thought they'd equalised initially through Benton Korn, it got disallowed for VAR. They're probably thinking, you know, nothing is going to go wrong for us today. and then van der Ven does this really silly tackle and he was captain for the night he gets booked you're thinking I'm just watching Spurs implode against the team like you said from Hans Christian Andersen world it was remarkable but somehow Spurs sort of just hung in there Thomas Frank threw on Mohamed Kudos, Jabby Siemens they really went for it, Siemens definitely made a difference Kudos a little bit they get that first goal back from van der Ven and then they just get a bit of a bizarre own goal where Archie Gray takes a shot.

28:27Charlie Eccleshare: We thought Richarlison had scored. It sort of bounces off the goalkeeper onto the post, onto the defender, I think. It's a really, really long VAR check. But at the end of the game, and this is sort of what I wrote about, in normal circumstances, equalising an 89th minute of a Champions League away game would be something that the Spurs players would celebrate about, any team would celebrate about. But I think the manner of their performance and how lucky they were meant that the Spurs players looked pretty miserable at full time I think they knew that they completely got away with one here right well at the very least

28:57Duncan Alexander: it is the opposite of Spursy in that they played badly but still managed to get something at the death but what do you think is the biggest issue then currently sitting in Thomas Frank's in trade

29:08Charlie Eccleshare: I think um the first couple of months of the season started really well and it almost might work against them that Spurs played excellently against PSG in the UEFA Super Cup and then beat Manchester City 2-0 sort of maybe skewed expectations slightly by having a really strong start um he's always been very good at coaching the fences i think what we're seeing now is spurs are just struggling to turn that territory into genuine chance creation they're just not particularly good going forward at the moment now we should point out that without dominic selanke who has been injured this season with an ankle issue and now requires surgery um james madison and then kuluseski are out so three of their best players their most senior players and most creative players are unavailable but they still got so much talent within the squad something needs to be a little bit better.

29:54Charlie Eccleshare: I guess Spurs are in a slightly weird place where they've gone from Ange Postacoglu, who is a bit of an attack at all costs manager, to Thomas Frank, who's a little bit more pragmatic. And they sort of need to find the perfect balance between the two. But this was Thomas Frank's first Champions League away game, his second game at all managing in the competition. I do think this was probably a very valuable lesson for him. So they just need to click and attack and hopefully things will settle down because the last month or so, like I said earlier, they just keep conceding first and pulling off these weird dramatic comebacks but that's not healthy or sustainable Indeed not

30:27Duncan Alexander: Jay have a super trip back and we look forward to seeing you soon Thank you very much guys all the best Jay Harris Spurs with another tough trip north this weekend they're going to be at Leeds Charlie you've got high hopes Leeds got a terrific record at home right now

30:47James Richardson: Yeah I have to say I do I did yesterday I mean, they came back well, but they were a pretty tough watch Spurs for a lot of this game. And then they have been in an attacking sense for quite a lot of this season, as Jay mentioned. I mean, Frank, the Man City result was brilliant, but I think they have struggled a bit against teams who've just sat in and asked them to break them down, which is what a lot of teams are going to do. I thought Bodo were pretty unlucky not to win this game. I think they'll be feeling pretty gutted. I mean, they were 2-0 up, obviously, but even at 2-1, they then hit the bar seconds before Spurs went down the other end and scored a kind of ricochet equaliser.

31:25James Richardson: Spurs did well. Just give them credit. They could easily 2-0 down. It looked like they were completely done. And they also hit the woodwork at 2-1 and had a goal disallowed, which would have made it 1-1, I guess, by the letter of the Lord, justifiably. But it was a bit one of those where when it went to the check, you're a bit like, what's this for? like what's happened here. But yeah, I think that is the concern that the fans have, that they just do look a bit short of ideas when attacking.

31:52Duncan Alexander: Well, those absences are key. Richarlison likely to be starting this weekend away at Elrho Road. If he does so, he will be the fifth Brazilian to make 250 Premier League appearances. Did you know? Can you name the other four, I wonder? Michael, can you name the other four Brazilians to make 250 Premier League appearances?

32:14Jay Harris: Firmino correct

32:15Duncan Alexander: David Luiz no what apparently not no Alison no Edison yes Fernandinho correct and one more Gilberto Silva no good chap yeah

32:32Jay Harris: well no because he's wrong

32:33Duncan Alexander: well yeah

32:35James Richardson: that's the equivalent of like on University Challenge you get the same wrong answer as someone does on the show it's like it's not right but it's a you know feels right moral victory yeah

32:43Duncan Alexander: so the other player is featured for no less than three London clubs oh Willian

32:49James Richardson: oh Willian yes yeah

32:52Duncan Alexander: excellent anything else from the Champions League you'd like to talk about the Madrid sides perhaps Atleti who are going to be taking on Arsenal next continuing their remarkable run of form by beating Eintracht Frankfurt who've been 5-1 winners against Galatasaray on the opening match day this time getting beaten at the Civitas Metropolitano at 5-1 by Atletico. There was Antoine Griezmann's 200th goal for Atleti, Raspardori's first goal for Atleti, including a Panenka. All sorts of delights there. At Real Madrid, by the way, who got beaten in the derby 5-2 by Atletico at the weekend, went to Kazakhstan and beat Kairat 5-0.

33:36Duncan Alexander: And I guess you guys are all watching the Premier League stuff here, but Kylian Mbappé looking in remarkable form in this game. Not the toughest of opposition, perhaps, but in every game that he's played, he's been on it.

33:48Jay Harris: I actually watched this. This was one of the early games. So this was my warm-up, although it was probably the main event in the end. It was quite intriguing because Kairat were so, like, they were so incompetent. They really were. It was like watching a non-league team against, you know, against Real Madrid. and and yeah they're playing quite a high line

34:10James Richardson: Coxie you were were they playing quite a high line against Mbappe it looked like just down to the incompetence point

34:16Jay Harris: but the thing is I thought it was quite a good demonstration of why football works because I mean they got to half time and it was only 1-0 and the goal would come from a penalty and they did have a couple of chances and they did some good deep defending and I think in most sports when you would have such an obvious mismatch obviously you know the game would be done in 15 20 minutes but they did hold out for a relatively long period okay late on they got tired and Real Madrid ran up the scoreline but it was it was just funny they did I mean the the incident for the penalty one defender just hacked the ball directly up in the air another one tried to head it back to the goalkeeper but it was woefully short and then the goalkeeper who looked about 14 came out and clattered the attacker it was I'm sorry if it sounds either cruel or patronising but I really enjoyed how manfully they competed and yet how completely incompetent they were this is the Champions League this is not the third round of the FA Cup it was quite a spectacle

35:19Duncan Alexander: I'm glad that you mentioned the age of the goalkeeper because he genuinely looked like shaving was not yet an issue for him Karl Mood sir 18 years of age but astonishingly useful look so well done to him Duncan

35:32Michael Cox: I mean, next up in round three, they've got Pafos at home. So anyone, you know, that's quite an intriguing fixture.

35:41Duncan Alexander: While Real Madrid will be taking on Juventus. Juve are in action this Wednesday night. They're going to be up against Villarreal. Other games on Wednesday include Monaco hosting Manchester City. Union Saint-Gilois, who beat PSV in match day one. They host Newcastle. Napoli play sporting. Dortmund host Athletic Club de Bilbao. but you won't be watching any of those because it's Barcelona PSG or what's left of them. Both clubs have been ravaged by injuries. Anyway, we'll be reviewing the big stories from those games in Thursday's show. Next up, let's catch up on a little bit of Premier League news and Monday's Everton-West Ham clash.

36:32Charlie Eccleshare: Keep up to date with us on Insta and enjoy us in glorious Technicolor on YouTube at The Totally Show.

36:39Duncan Alexander: Rob Moore, hello to you. Rob listened to our Totally Extra from last week in which we were talking about Derby, the 07-08 season. And he offers this. You keep saying, says Rob, that Paul Jewell had to get off the M1 at Junction 37 after travelling past Junction 36. As he was heading to Derby, he would have been going southbound, so he would have come off at Junction 35A. so Paul Jewell I'm so annoyed

37:03James Richardson: about this Rob I thought I had this thought and I was like oh I can't remember why I didn't say it well maybe

37:10Duncan Alexander: because you thought this is Paul Jewell's story and he probably knows which direction on the M1 no because I've interviewed

37:15James Richardson: I've interviewed too many Premier League managers to know and players to know that you have to fact check everything they say and you get into trouble by assuming that they would know you know that they'll mention a player they worked with or something

37:27Duncan Alexander: what if he was travelling northbound though yeah We don't know what route he took to the ground. We don't know. True, though, did he not reveal that? Did he not specify his departure point?

37:40James Richardson: Yeah, I think he did. Maybe not. But yes, I had the same thought, Rob.

37:44Jay Harris: Charlie, when it comes to those kind of factual errors, because it's the same if you read a player's autobiography, you're like, wow, that's interesting, and then you check the details. It's always wrong. Do you think that people in football are very bad at remembering their own life, Or do you think it's a universal thing where our own perceptions of our memories and reality are actually completely false? So true.

38:07James Richardson: I do think it's really interesting. But some players and managers do have a really good recall. It does vary quite a lot. And then others are really, really bad. And I don't know. And I think people, like there's the thing going around at the moment, which is brilliant, the guy who fact checks, which is great. He doesn't really well. And I think, though, that people, there's an assumption that people are sort of deliberately embellishing their stories. And I think, yeah, sometimes there are. I often think people just misremember or conflate. Like, you play so many games.

38:37Duncan Alexander: Paul Jewell aggrandizing here the exit number from the M1 that he might have taken. I have to say, though, that for all the slurs we've just thrown at Paul Jewell's powers of memory, it was actually David Moyes who had told him, get off at Junction 37. So it was Moyes who made the assumption about his northbound vector.

39:01Michael Cox: Yeah. David Moyes says his direction of travel must improve along with his attacking, defending, etc.

39:08James Richardson: Indicating. Yeah.

39:11Duncan Alexander: Last weekend taking the M1 southbound, I imagine, then the M25 and a touch of the M11 was Nuno Espirito Santo who pitched up at West Ham. And by Monday he was straight back in the thick of it. back up north with West Ham as they took on Everton in the Monday night game. A 1-1 draw this, which sounds like a positive start. Brackets, did anyone see this?

39:37Jay Harris: Michael? Yeah, I did. I quite enjoyed just the spectacle of an evening game at the new stadium, actually. I thought the shots from outside, over the docks and with the lights and everything, it looked absolutely spectacular. Probably better than the game itself, I would say. But yeah, it was reasonably enjoyable. It was interesting to see Nuna come in, having been appointed on, what, Saturday? When did he take training on Saturday? Sunday, I think. I think so. Sunday. I just found the whole thing of, you've probably discussed this before, but I just found the whole thing of Potter being sacked on Saturday morning when they had essentially a weekend game just completely bizarre.

40:18Jay Harris: And I was also intrigued by him leaving out James Ward-Prowse completely from the squad, who he'd worked with at Nostrum Forest with a kind of very vague explanation of something like we've spoken and he understands me. But the squads are so big now. If you're left out of the squad completely, that's quite a big thing when you've got so many options and he doesn't get in. So yeah, quite interesting.

40:44Michael Cox: Michael, you'll be delighted to know that our colleague Connor has worked out that Saturday is the least likely day to be sacked of any Premier League manager. So, yeah, you're right. It was unusual.

40:53James Richardson: I was thinking it. The field value was almost unprecedented to actually do the pre-match press conference and then still get the chart.

40:59Jay Harris: Well, I did go back and check. Potter's last game, the opposition fans were singing you're getting sacked in the morning, but they presumably weren't referring to Saturday morning. That probably would have been the last morning they would have expected. So true.

41:13Duncan Alexander: As we'd mentioned, Nuno Espirito-Santo's last game before this had been a defeat to West Ham. so it was interesting to see him in charge. But they came back from a goal down. Michael Keane had opened the scoring for the Toffees, who are now four games without a win. Jared Bowen getting the equaliser midway through the second half. Everton, four games without a win. Next weekend, they've got Crystal Palace arriving. That's on the Sunday. And they'll be without Keane and Dewsbury Hall. Talk me through the controversy about his suspension.

41:47Jay Harris: well he's got five yellow cards and he's querying at least two of them one of them was for taking a free kick too quickly against liverpool and there was one in this game as well duncan yeah that was

41:59Michael Cox: just a really good tackle um we won the ball really cleanly and and still got but um i mean it's five yellows in the first six games sounds rare and it is relatively rare but uh nicholas Jackson did it for Chelsea a couple of seasons ago.

42:14Jay Harris: Didn't James Perch do it once?

42:17Michael Cox: Well, there are two players who got five Vieta cards in their first five games, one of which is James Perch, well remembered. Any guesses on the other one? I'll give you the season. It was 2017-18. Who can remember the uproar in September as a player disrespected our league? Aaron Moy. Good shout. I've no idea It's Marcus Rochel Alright It's one of those events He's like Oh yeah I vaguely remember that At the time But you know Your brain If we were on an Anecdote based You know Book tour right now I don't think we'd have Got the right name for that So

42:58Duncan Alexander: Thank goodness Hey Duncan As for Ken and Dewsbury Hall He was absolutely Raging afterwards Posting Forgive me if I'm wrong And I might be But some of these decisions Are so hard to take Mind boggling What a nice chap he seems to be.

43:11Michael Cox: Well, you don't see the phrase mind-boggling very often in the 2020s. It feels quite sort of, I don't know, 1990s phraseology.

43:21James Richardson: He also read, like, yeah, forgive me if I'm wrong and I might be. And I may well be.

43:28Duncan Alexander: Unless, I mean, that's how I read it, Charlie, but he might have been slightly more passive-aggressive in his... True. He might have just been performative because, as Michael says, everything now is in front of an audience.

43:40Jay Harris: I mean, it's one of those things. We talked earlier about Chelsea getting lots of red cars. And sometimes you think indiscipline is a bit of a young player's thing. And I kind of, despite the harshness, I kind of thought that here and then realised that Deuce Behold is actually 27. Really? Which completely took me by surprise. I thought he was about 24.

44:00Duncan Alexander: Well, he'll be sitting out the visit of Palace on Sunday. as for West Ham they're going to be travelling to Arsenal at the weekend which is going to be it's going to be a busy week for Nuno Espíritu Santo preparing for that one

44:13Michael Cox: I did enjoy how he you know how managers come in and they're like well I know what I know how I like to play and he obviously had a lot of success with Chris Wood last season so it was like yeah Nicholas Fulcrook you can play up front but Fulcrook actually did pretty well I thought and West Ham did grow into the game and I think there were a lot of positives in the second half. So, yeah, it feels like the right change.

44:37James Richardson: All right. Fulker will surely have a few games where he is, like, you know, borderline unplayable and really effective. So whether he can stay fit and kind of sustain that.

44:47Jay Harris: You just never trust a striker at West Ham to have a consistent season, do you? I just can't... I almost can't imagine a West Ham striker scoring 20 league goals in the season. I can't remember the last time it happened. But I'm quite sad... Frank McAvely did. well there you go I'm quite excited with Fulcron because he was such a kind of like fun novelty player that came through really late played for a really good team played in the Champions League final had a big impact and you're like I'll always kind of see that name and think oh that was a good 18 months and then West Ham signed him and you're like I'm just going to remember him as this like slightly washed up seven goals a season you know

45:25Michael Cox: like if Dortmund had signed Ricky Lambert which is that's not right pretty much

45:29Jay Harris: yeah fair play

45:30Duncan Alexander: what an alternate dimension that that would be well saturday three o 'clock it's arsenal west ham as i mentioned on thursday we'll be having a full weekend preview of round seven of this premier league season we'll also be clocking all the big stories from wednesday night's champions league action so do give that a listen if you're of a mind for today i think that wraps it up for this totally extra so many many thanks to jay harris earlier on to michael Charlie and Duncan and to producer Jesse listener will be back soon in the meantime from all of us here it's goodbye

46:09Charlie Eccleshare: you've been listening to the Totally Football Show part of the Athletic FC podcast network for more great podcasts just like this one including the Athletic FC and our dedicated club podcasts search for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places we're also at the Totally Football Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

46:37James Richardson: The Athletic FC