Liverpool show steel at San Siro as Chelsea are beaten in Bergamo

0:00The Athletic FC

0:30Prague and all the rest of the Tuesday action, including Lennart Karl, a better weaker foot than Messi at his age and a nicer moustache possibly too. All that plus wars against Man United and more in this Totally Football Show. Wednesday the 10th of December, it's a brand new Totally Football Show. Say hello, listener, to Michael Cox. Hi, James. Hi. Say hello to the listener, Michael. What? Wait. I just said say hello, listener, to Michael Cox and you said hello to me. I felt so strange you might want to say. Oh, sorry. Hey, listener. That's all right. Hi, listener. Hello. Charlie Echoes is with us as well, Charlie.

1:03Hello. And so is Tom Williams. Hello, James. Hello, listeners. All right, it's a remote show today. So if any clips of this are available, you'll see a variety of interesting windows into the private lives of the correspondents. Charlie, you've got some kind of body diagram. It looks like. Yeah, this is my son's. And actually, it is football related. That's not your son. Oh, the poster, right. The poster belongs to him, yeah. He's not the model, the skeleton in it. But the first thing my eye was drawn to was the metatarsal on the foot, which I hadn't thought about since England players kept going down with metatarsal injuries in the early and mid-noughties.

1:44Yeah. Whatever happened to those metatarsal days? I know. Well, the skeleton diagram suggests they do still exist. They are still around. They can be broken, damaged. Right. Tom's got so much stuff going on in his background with books, it looks like, some kind of library. Michael Cox on the other. Well, it looks like I've positioned my laptop to show off about how many books I own, but this is the best spot in the entire. Public library. The entire flat for internet connection. So I'm, yeah. Thanks, Tom. I'm kind of forcing my bookshelves on you, but with a good reason. Right. Michael Cox has got a selection of iconic football jersey numbers framed behind him.

2:25That is correct. Thank you, Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen, for that. Oh, nice. No, Zinedine Zidane, of course. No, it wasn't my selection, I should add. I mean, I wouldn't have had him in, but it wasn't my selection. Just for the sake of anyone not across the visuals, you've got a Maradona there. Who else have we got? Good quiz for you. Good quiz for you. Bobby Moore, Backenbauer, Paolo Rossi? Yes, great shout. Yeah. Thanks. Perfect. With that out of the way, Champions League, Tuesday night, Matchday 6 got underway. Feeling that jeopardy yet? These are the later stages where it all gets a bit do or die, supposedly.

3:08Charlie? Ish. I mean, there is that element where at this point now any drop points, you know, like Chelsea went from you know, I think they were fourth at one point looking really strong to suddenly getting top eight looks like quite a tall order for them. Yeah. So, yes, there is that that level of jeopardy. Obviously, they have the fullback of the preliminary qualifying round if they don't make the top eight. Indeed. Not sure. Michael, what are you feeling about this? Nominally, the sharp end of the league phase. Yeah, it's kind of all shaking out a little bit more as expected. I think last year there was a real novelty with big teams struggling, particularly PSG and Manchester City.

3:52This time around, it doesn't look like there's going to be that many surprises, to be honest. And I must say, I do still find it slightly difficult to get excited about whether a team's going to be in the top eight or merely the top 16, because I think the teams between nine and 16 probably, chances are they will go through. So it's almost like the most interesting cutoff is whether you're 24th or 25th, which I don't think is a particularly exciting scenario, to be honest. So I must admit, I'm slightly struggling to get excited about the league phase. But the game I watched last night, Liverpool Winter, I thought was a really good classic European game.

4:31So in terms of that, yeah, enjoyed last night. Okay, we'll hear what you liked about it very, very shortly. Tom, you were across the quite exciting match down the road at Bergamoor. Yeah, really interesting game. quite an even game with Atalanta coming out on top at the end. And yeah, you look at the coverage and the suggestion is that Chelsea's failure to at least pick up a point now leaves them in serious jeopardy. But to echo what Cox was saying, they would have to try exceptionally hard not to advance to the next phase. And if they have to come through the knockout phase, then so be it. You suspect they probably would have taken that at the start of the competition.

5:14So not a huge degree of jeopardy, but some fantastic matches nevertheless. And, you know, we're learning things about all these teams as the competition advances. I think the reality is the jeopardy for a team like Chelsea is it means two fewer spare midweeks that they desperately need. Clearly, they've got a squad that's, you know, Mareska manages it fairly, pretty carefully. He talks about that with players like Rhys James. And I think especially if they get in the Carabao Cup semis, they've got something. If they do have to play that playoff, I think it could be they have won midweek off now until March or something.

5:46I mean, the reality is that's the jeopardy. You're going to have to flog your players more. That's sort of where we are with it. All right. Manchester City's six results then on Tuesday saw Liverpool 1-0 winners away to Inter San Siro. They thought they'd taken the lead in the first half through Konati's header. Celebrations cut short, though, after VAR ruled that Ekitike's volleyball-style intervention contravened the rules of the game. Goal eventually coming, though, late on from a soft-as-a-pillow penalty converted by Dominic Slobber's eye as Grumpy Mo was back in Liverpool posting selfies.

6:22Down the road, in Bergamo, Chelsea got beaten 2-1 by Atalanta. Chelsea had taken the lead through Jean-Pedro, but the goddess turned it around. through King Charles de Quetelare, who set up Scamacca for the equaliser, then himself beat Cucurella and Sanchez for the winner. Back home, Spurs beat Slavia Prague 3-0 with an own goal and a pair of penalties that were put away by Kouros and Xavi Simons. Elsewhere, it was a big night for come-from-behind victories. Along with Atalanta, you had Barcelona, Bayern, Atletico, Madrid and Marseille also all turning their games around. Barcelona at home to Eintracht Frankfurt, their first game back at Camp Nou in ages.

7:00They went behind to Frankfurt. Then on a quiet night for Laminia Mahl, found an unlikely goal-scoring hero in Jules Koundé, who scored his first Champions League goal in five years. Then, of course, scored another to make it 2-1. Bayern went behind at home to Sporting, but ruled back to win 3-1. Did everybody see the latest goal from Wunderkind, Leonard Kahn? And he had one disallowed as well. Yeah, he did. Lovely finish. Yes, he is just a joy to watch. 17 years of age, the first ever teenager to net in three Champions League games in a row. And a teenager with a moustache, like a proper moustache, which is quite a rare...

7:42I respect it. I respect it. But it's an unusual look for a 17-year-old boy. But I guess, you know, he plays like a man. He wants to have a face that looks like a man's face. You can see the thinking. He does look like a 17-year-old being played by a much, much older actor. And we're like, this is really unconvincing. There's just no, you know, it's like in Greece or something. This guy's not 17. 45. Yeah, come on. It's an unusual choice for a teenager, a moustache perhaps. But then again, if you can at 17. I mean, yeah, why not? Absolutely. Why not? Alphonso Davies coming off the bench for Bayern, by the way.

8:21That's his first appearance in nine months after his injury woes with his crucial ligaments. Also Tuesday, Atletico Madrid conceded early at PSV Eindhoven, who were tearing them apart in the first half. But Atleti ended up 3-2 winners, with Julian Alvarez scoring for his third Champions League game in a row. And Marseille also won 3-2. That was at Union Saint-Gilois. Mason Greenwood with a brace. Union Saint-Gilois had two goals disallowed for offside as they chased the equaliser. to the disappointment of their home fans and indeed neutrals everywhere because they play Vamos a la Playa for their goal music.

8:58You can never hear that enough. Also Tuesday, Monaco beat Galatasaray 1-0. Galatasaray keeper Cechi had saved a penalty from Denis Zakaria in this game, but then he got injured and no sooner had the game restarted than following Balogun scored from a corner against his replacement. 1-0, the final score to Monaco, who, of course, beat PSG the other day in a run of defeats, very up-and-down form from the Monagas. Olympiakos, meanwhile, were 1-0 winners at Kairat in Kazakhstan, although that game was played in Astana because of extreme weather conditions. Hmm. All right. Michael enjoyed the action at San Siro, where Liverpool beat Inter 1-0, so let's start with that.

9:41This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network.

9:49Three minutes to play in the San Siro. Amidst testing circumstances for Liverpool. It's Saboslay. And maybe this is a night when they get their mojo back. Michael, Liverpool 1-0 winners against last season's beaten Champions League finalist, Inter. I had this down as not a great game, but a lot for Arnie Slott to be grateful for. What did you like about it? quite like the tactical battle it was very unusual to see a diamond up against a 3-5-2 don't think you'll see that many times in the champions league this season and i don't think liverpool necessarily played great football but i thought slot it was a very good night for slot obviously getting the win when he's under a lot of pressure but i just thought tactically they did it really well made a couple of changes at half time whereas graven back first half have been sitting almost next to a defender trying to help out against the Interstrikers.

10:46They pushed him higher second half. He went pressing and I think Liverpool were the better team in the second half and also the changes he made to bring on Florian Verts and Connor Bradley had a massive impact. I think particularly Bradley. Joe Gomez was playing right back. First half, I suspect they wanted his height for set pieces, which has been an issue in recent weeks. But Bradley came on. He was really lively and Liverpool, I mean by the end, you know, the penalty I think was probably controversial. I must say personally, I think that's just a penalty. If you pull your shirt like that, it's a penalty.

11:20But by the end, I think Liverpool were the better team and just about deserved the win. That's a fair point. If you do tug a shirt, you are giving the referee a decision to make. Although I think it was the theatrical way that Florian Virts went down. You know, I don't know if you saw this match live, but it's quite an odd incident where the referee went and looked at the VAR screen. And then I don't know why, but he called over both captains to explain what was happening. I was hoping that the reason he was doing that was he was going to give a penalty but also book verts for diving which I think would have needed an explanation to both captains and I think would have been the right outcome from that incident to be honest fair enough it's a classic penalty where you're used to getting away with it so it's a bit annoying and weird when you don't but it kind of is still a penalty but the indignation and anger is like but people get away with that all the time why can't we get away with it even though he does pull it and who's got away with that for you know decades before VAR it's defenders for Italian clubs let's be honest there you go have some of that defenders for Italian clubs did they get away with one though with the Liverpool disallowed goal which to me looked like a pretty clear example of a handball but I was informed regularly by commentary was no such thing I mean who knows James who knows what who knows Amazon commentators seem pretty clear on the fact that that was perfectly legit waving your arm in the air and having the ball crash off it on the way to a well because i think i think their argument was because it came off a teammate right um but ordinarily because you know there was once a time where if the ball flicked up off your own body and hit an outstretched arm you would not be penalized but then that seemed to be overridden by the fact of being in an a natural position and what the commentators were suggesting last night was actually if it comes off a teammate that exception still exists but I mean well and also the interpretations are slightly different between UEFA and the Premier League UEFA in general I think European referees are still quite a lot stricter on hand balls compared to Premier League referees I think that goal will be given in the Premier League and I think that inconsistency as much as anything is obviously the problem.

13:35No wonder it took them four and a half minutes to come to that decision. A disappointing night from Inter's point of view, created very, very little hampered by the early exit of Chalunoglu lack of creativity. They're still in the top five of the Champions League phase with Wednesday still to come so half the teams still have games in hand. They are still one point off the top in Serie A as well after a big win at the weekend but that's another one of the big matches this season that they've lost. Milan, Napoli and Juventus domestically and Atletico, Madrid and Liverpool backed back in the Champions League, which suggests the slight limit to their prospects this season.

14:18Liverpool, it was a narrow win, but Michael, you're seeing signs of movement in the right direction. Yeah, I think it was a positive performance. I don't think the diamond is going to be a long-term solution. I don't think it ever is these days for clubs. I think it's a system with very obvious strengths and very obvious weaknesses. And I think these days, the level of opposition scouting means that the system tends to get worked out after a few games. But it has stabilised them defensively. I mean, I know they conceded three goals at the weekend, but they actually didn't concede that many chances.

14:48You know, they got undone from set pieces. Daft Kanate tackle for the penalty. But the shapers look much better. So, yeah, as a bit of a sticking plaster, I think it's good. But there's still some concerns. Ekotiki and Izak I think I'm right saying didn't pass to each other once for the entire game usually there's a caveat with the kick off in those kind of stats I haven't gone back and checked the kick off maybe they're just not counting that which I think is right so they were kind of playing in complete isolation granted they were up against a back three and I think with this system you've got to run the channels on the outside so they weren't always in close proximity but there's no relationship there so yeah there's still a lot of problems but I think they're in um it's a big win and i do think the positive the performance was good uh particularly from slot i think he coached this one quite well okay i mean unless kiesa's i mean kiesa's ill so you'd think he would be back fairly soon but i mean those two are basically their only senior attackers available which you know would have been hard to imagine after that huge summer spend that they'd be going in so short of attacking numbers but obviously with gacpo injured for a bit Salah on the naughty step or wherever he is um that's kind of their that was kind of their only option yesterday Charlie you were saying last Thursday you thought the whole Salah situation was unsustainable before he came out and confirmed your opinion has he done Arnie Slott a huge favor by making it essentially the story of a player throwing his toys out the pram for most people Maybe.

16:20And I guess it gives Slott, I think Slott has come out with credit and people seem quite sympathetic towards him. Yeah, I mean, even before Thursday, I've said from as soon as he got that new contract, this was only going to end one way in the same way that with Cristiano Ronaldo at Manchester United, to an extent at Juve and Real Madrid, when you've got a player who is all output, the moment the output dries up, you're going to have this big problem and you've got a player who is absolutely not going to be happy to be treated like a normal squad rotation option. You know, it has to be all or nothing.

16:54So in the sense that at least they've got it out of the way early, because I do think this was inevitable. And yeah, maybe it means that, you know, they could ship him out in January, which would be quite useful to kind of, you know, team harmony and what have you. But his numbers also last season were absolutely absurd. I mean, for goals and assists in the Premier League and beyond. And so you are stripping that out of a team like that. That is going to damage them. And they're left really, you know, are they going to get a replacement in in January? Maybe. But I do think there needs to be question marks about, you know, we praise Liverpool a lot for their recruitment and how well run they are and all of that.

17:35But I think their summer business, including giving Salah that new contract, have to be looked at. I mean, that decision now looks, I see why they did it, especially in the context of Trent leaving. But, you know, the skill that these people supposedly have is being able to see beyond what the fans were. Obviously, all fans are desperate to keep Mo Salah. Of course they are. He's just scored loads of goals. And especially for a club that's supposedly quite data-driven and all of this. But that feels like quite a big error, really, giving him a huge new deal when it's basically fallen apart a few months in.

18:07But, I mean, in hindsight, I agree. But was anyone making this case at the time? I mean, as you say, he had arguably the best season anyone's ever had in Premier League. Most goals, most assists, he won the league. I don't think anyone else has done that in Premier League history. I agree in hindsight. Now it looks like a poor move. And I think increasingly giving these players one last big contract, you know, I think of Ozil, I think of Aubameyang, Arsenal, kind of similar situations, big fuss about whether they deserve a new contract. And immediately it seems like they go off the boil. But I can't remember anyone making the argument that he didn't deserve the contract.

18:42And it is only two years. I know it's a huge amount of money they're giving him. But I don't think anyone could have reasonably predicted that, having recorded the best numbers the Premier League has seen pretty much, there would be this level of drop-off. Maybe not quite this quickly, but I mean, I do think it was fairly inevitable this would happen at some point. And also the skill of these people surely is that they are able to see beyond just what kind of fans see, which is, yeah, he's had a great season. so let's give him an absolutely enormous contract. I mean, they're lucky in some respects because his standing in places like Saudi Arabia is so through the roof that they'll probably get big money for, they may get a big money move for him anyway, so that they may get away with it.

19:26But I mean, just without, sorry, but just to make one point, just in terms of the data, you know, his numbers weren't tracking downwards. His numbers were up significantly last year on the previous two seasons and he had, it felt like he'd actually changed his game quite a lot. he'd become more of a creative force as well, which he hadn't been before. And as there's been discussion about, he was allowed more freedom from defensive responsibilities. It did seem to be playing out. So I agree in hindsight, but I'd be interested to know if anyone was making, like literally anyone was making the case not to give him a new contract.

19:56If it was no one in the world, which is my memory of it, I think it's quite hard to criticise the decision makers for not going against that. It does tie in with the sense that you got with Liverpool that decisions were being taken in isolation you look at the recruitment over the summer we're going to give summer a big new contract yeah great we're going to bring in his new number 10 break the club record and he's going to be the main man sure do it let's sign a really good center forward uh brilliant yeah um i tell you what let's get another one uh yeah okay great and now what well that's up to the coach and every one of those decisions make sense in isolation but to echo Charlie's point about strategy, what was the expectation as to what this would look like?

20:43And I think perhaps the lack of strategic planning around that explains some of the problems that Liverpool are encountering today. And the other factor to maybe throw into that is the fact that you had another player who didn't want to stick around, Trent, who had performed such a key role in making Salah play the way that Salah was playing, not just because of his own contribution But the fact that with Slobber's eye dropping back to cover for Trent, that also changes the whole nature of the team, as well as various other factors, including, of course, the tragic death of Diogo Jota and the departure of Luis Diaz.

21:18Completely. And just on that right back point, though, if you are, you know, you're keeping Salah. So that means the team has to be geared towards getting the best out of Salah because we know like, yeah, his numbers were, of course, they were, as I said, they were incredible last season. But his defensive output has gone from minimal to completely non-existent. That's fine. You just have to then build a team around him. And then so bringing in Frimpong as the right back to replace Trent, that again, that feels like a slightly odd move. if you are just going to basically gear the team around Salah and accept he's not going to move defensively.

21:50You have to build a structure that's going to help him. Michael? Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree about Frimpong. I mean, that was quite an attacking replacement for Alexander-Arnold. But again, I'd ask the question, was anyone saying this at the time? I think it's so easy for us to be clever in hindsight. They beat Arsenal third game of the season 1-0. Not a great game. I think they were the slightly better team. And that night they signed Isaac. And everyone's acting like they're on top of the world and they're going to coast to the title. And they've clearly played badly since. But now everyone's going back and going, well, actually, the transfers everyone said was really good were actually the wrong moves.

22:24I think they had to reformat the team. And I think when you bring in lots of new players like that, it usually doesn't happen instantaneously. It's often a rebuilding job that comes good in the second season. I think a lot of arrivals from abroad usually take a year to get up to speed and they're good in the second season. And so, yeah, I'm slightly wary of all this thing that they've made loads of errors in the summer because no one was really saying it at the time. I would dispute that it's easy to be clever in hindsight, Michael. Some of us struggle even there. But it's a fair point you make in other regards.

22:57Liverpool now four games without defeat since ditching Mo Salah. And for all that they were unknowns in their transfer policy, as they say, maybe the way that he has approached things, the way that he has decided to lance the boil of that tactical question around him and his lack of form has simplified things for Arnie Slott. They're home to Brighton at the weekend. And the next two, the final two games of the Champions League group phase, league phase, sorry, are Marseille away and Carabag at home. So it's not looking too bad for Liverpool, who currently lie eighth. So a win off the field, a win on the field as well, with Inter beaten at home in the Champions League for the first time in over three years.

23:40Meanwhile, down the road, things didn't go quite so well for Chelsea. We'll hear about that game next.

23:52This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli Kaye and the very best football writers around.

24:26Two English sides both playing away in Europe on Tuesday night, both playing teams in black and blue, both playing about 50 miles apart. Down the road from San Siro in Bergamo, there was a much more visually exciting game, I think, as Atalanta came back from a goal down to defeat iCampioni del Mondo, as the Gazeta excitedly trumpeted on Wednesday morning. A 2-1 victory for La Dea. Tom, you were watching this. Atalanta, who had a rough start to the season, And they had to, of course, replace the godfather, if I may, of their enormous success in Europe. Gasparini with Ivan Juric, and that went about as well as you'd expect.

25:11But since Raffaele Palladino has come in, they're looking much more like it, eh? Yeah, they were very good. I mean, it was a really enjoyable game, brilliant atmosphere. And Atalanta really went for it from the start. They were pressing very aggressively. They were forcing Chelsea back. and Chelsea hadn't really created a chance of no and then took the lead. 25th minute, short corner, lovely cross from the left with his left foot by Rhys James and Jean-Pedro steers it home at the near post. And then the rest of the first half was relatively even but Atalanta just seemed to go up a gear. Second half, the catalara tees up the equaliser for Gianluca Scamacca, sort of powers down the right flank and thinks a lovely cross to the back post that Scamacca heads in.

26:01And then De Quetelera scores the winner seven minutes from the end. Again, picks the ball up deep, is given too much space by the Chelsea defence that backs off him, drives into the box, gets off a shot that flicks off Kukurea and beats Robert Sanchez at his near post. And yeah, I think disappointment for Chelsea and a draw would have been a decent result in the circumstances. and I mean, yeah, I don't think it complicates matters for them all that much, but it does feed into this sense that some of the momentum that seemed to be generated by the 3-0 win against Barcelona in their previous game and then the very creditable performance in the 1-1 draw against Arsenal in the league has now just evaporated.

26:45That's four games without a win. Mareska's getting flack for making changes all the time and you're kind of getting the sense that this team is perhaps not quite ready to challenge for the league title, to be a major player in the Champions League and I think a lot of it comes to do with the fact that it's just a very young squad and the chopping and changing is perhaps not helping them kind of figure out a way of playing together. Absences as well, of course, not least Cole Palmer. They've lost four of their last five away games in the Champions League. So far from a blip this, their final two league phase matches are at home to Paphos with that David Luiz.

27:28And then away at Antonio Conte's Napoli, which should be a sizzler. Atalanta, meantime, will be at home to Athletic Club de Bilbao and then away at Union Sanchez Loire. Atalanta are currently up in third spot, third in the Champions League league phase. extraordinary stuff. Lovely to see Skamaka back and scoring after all of his injury concerns. And great news for Italy potentially as well. Tom, what with their playoff coming up? Yes, indeed. Against Northern Ireland and then potentially Wales or Bosnia and Herzegovina. But yeah, I mean I think as a neutral observer of the Italian game you kind of look down the squad list these days and there aren't that many names that jump out.

28:13And I think particularly in attack there's a you know there's there's a lack of there's particularly a lack of experience there's a real lack of goals um and so having you know someone like skamaka back on the scene i'm sure will will do them good and you know particularly against opponents like northern ireland the kind of bruising number nine um who you know who won't be uh who won't be worried about going up against the grizzle figures in in the northern irish uh defense it's amazing some of the some of the attackers Italy end up relying on. I mean, no offence to Scamacca, he's a decent centre forward, but I think it's overlooked.

28:49I don't think, have Italy produced a real top-class attacking player in the last 20 years? Like, it just seems every tournament they turn up at, and often I think they're very good at getting maybe two attackers on the same wavelength, but Scamacca, I mean, he's alright, isn't he? Scamacca was excellent at Sassuola before his move to West Ham, and they're very much not excellent at West Ham, after which he had that knee injury there then he lost all of last season with with an ACL but this season he's been he's been looking much much better again with Atalanta he was a promising player rather than a great and maybe we're now seeing this is hence my excitement of this we're seeing some of that promise to deliver but it is it has been something not least in Italy that they are they talk about a lot the lack of great Italian strikers.

29:37Vieri, you could say Balotelli, at least to begin with, was a player of world-class talent. But yeah, Vieri would be the last really big figure. And if it's not Skamaka, I mean, the two up front at the moment are Moisey Kane and Rettegui, who's not even Italian. So yeah. Charlie, were you going to? No, I was going to say, I mean, an attacker until he got that injury, Chiesa looked like he might be on that kind of trajectory. But yeah, no, I think You can't disagree with that. Indeed. And just to add, I mean, fantastic performance by De Quetelera. And you watch him in this kind of form. And he's been superb in the Champions League for Atalanta.

30:16And it is remarkable to think that he spent an entire season at Milan and didn't score a single goal. And you look back over his career and that season is just such an anomaly. He's never going to be a prolific striker, but he's a kind of 15 plus goals a season forward. and yeah, he looked really, really good last night. There you go. Atalanta 2-1 victors against Chelsea. Charlie, while all this was going on, you were watching Spurs at home to Slavia Prague. How was that for you? It was actually quite an entertaining game. I mean, in large part, because Slavia Prague's approach was bizarre. I mean, it was like, it reminded me of playing Sunday League against a really amped up team who were kind of sent out seemingly really energized and eager to make an impact.

31:06They're going to put into meaty tackles. They went man for man as well, which was kind of bold and instantly felt as though it wasn't really going to be sustainable. I mean, the goals that Spurs scored kind of sum up how sort of frenzied Slavia Prague were. One was an own goal and a kind of comedy, the sort of own goals and gaff style own goal where it looks like he's trying to score deliberately. One of those, like Romero wins the flick on and he just bullets a header past the really impressive goalkeeper up until that point. He made some really good saves. And then the second goal, Coxie referenced the Canate foul in the Leeds game.

31:46It's that sort of one where the guy's sort of going off the pitch and he just goes steaming in. And then they get another penalty. A guy who's already on a booking just cleans out Xavi Simmonds. At least that one made some sense because Simmonds probably would have scored. He luckily avoided the defender getting the second booking. But yeah, it's weird. I mean, I felt watching this game that all but probably the bottom two in the Premier League would have beaten Slavia Prague or would have given them a good match or would have given Spurs a harder time at home. And that's borne out by the fact that, I mean, Spurs drew with Wolves.

32:24The two teams I was thinking were Burnley and Wolves and Wolves actually drew with Spurs at home this season. I mean, in the Premier League in 2025, Spurs have four wins in 22 games. They've got three out of three in the Champions League. And similarly, you know, when Spurs beat Copenhagen earlier in the group stage, it was a good win, but it didn't kind of herald a great turnaround in the league because, frankly, they're just not that good a team and the same as Slavia Prague. So, I mean, it was a good win. and you take these and put Spurs in a good position, certainly for a playoff place, and they've still got a chance at the top eight.

33:02But yeah, I mean, it was kind of, I think the talk was, is this a turning point for Thomas Frank? And I just don't really know if it will be or if it's just a quite handy win against a not very good team. Okay, a not very good team who did create quite a few chances. That might be one area of concern for Thomas Frank. The other one being that Dutch speedster Mickey van der Venne picked up a yellow card, which means that he will be suspended for their next Champions League match, which is at home to Borussia Dortmund with Serhieu Gracie to contend with. They've got Frankfurt away as their final game.

33:37Yeah, that is a big blow. Their goalkeeper's stunning, I thought, was sensational. I mean, he made two or three genuinely outstanding saves. I felt quite sorry for him when one of his own players nodded past him with great composure. But it's funny because obviously their previous goalkeeper has gone to Tottenham. What's his name? Kinski. Kinski. Who seemed like quite a main character for about two weeks in January. And I haven't really heard of him since. But clearly they're finding a lot of... I mean, Czechs generally do produce quite a good number of goalkeepers, I think, don't they? Predator Czech, that's one.

34:06I mean, Stanek made, even in the very first minute, made this incredible save from Richarlison. That was... I couldn't work out how he did that on first few. It was like he was going the wrong way and still managed to just leave part of him in the way. It was fantastic. I mean, on the point, James, about the Slavia Prague chances, they did in the first half, but then they just sort of ran out of puff a bit in the second, which sort of always felt inevitable. I mean, Joe Hart was quite interesting. He said in commentary, he said he thought Spurs sort of hadn't approached the game like a big team.

34:38This was when they were 2-0 up, I think. Yeah, certainly before the third. But his argument was that they sort of got excited and a bit dragged down into the match that Slavia Prague wanted to play. Whereas actually, if they'd been a bit more patient and just sort of played around them, they could have exploited these pretty massive gaps that opened up. I mean, to be fair to Spurs, they worked it out and it was a very comfortable win in the end. Pretty massive holes in defence, actually, for Slavia Prague. Very much so. So they've got a player called Holish, who's their captain. Very nice, Michael.

35:09It's spelt holes, that's the joke. Right. Works better on paper, that one, but we'll allow it. It does, it does. So Son Hyung-min made an appearance, Charlie. Yes, that was, I mean, for a lot of fans, I think that was probably the highlight of the evening. And there were some suggestions that it was a slightly doing it before a Champions League game, a sort of potentially low selling, relatively low stakes Champions League group game was a ploy to get fans there rather than say a home game against Liverpool upcoming where there'd probably be loads of fans anyway. But yeah, I think fans really enjoyed that.

35:45And he spoke and said, I'll never forget you, don't forget me kind of thing. But yeah, I mean, he's such a, probably with Ledley King, I mean, obviously Harry Kane, but the fact that Kane leaving when he did, I think Son staying, winning something, you could make a case he's sort of the biggest legend of the club in the modern era. So yeah, that was a highlight, I think, probably for a lot of fans of last night. Slightly awkward moment. I don't know if anyone else noticed this. When he was presented with his commemorative gift by Ledley King, it was like it was a Spurs cockerel, a kind of trophy made up of the Spurs cockerel in a display case.

36:26And he tried to take the cockerel out of the display case, but I don't think it was supposed to be removable. There was a brief moment of confusion. And I thought I was ready. He was about to literally just rip it out and tear off all this beautiful leather, velvety fabric, but he didn't. Confusion as he tries to take his c*** out in the middle of the pitch. The well. Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. The jokes write themselves. Incredible scenes. They're wet for us this weekend. Our Tottenham Hotspur and Champions League. Raining two fixtures, as I mentioned, at home too. Borussia Dortmund and then away at Frankfurt.

37:01Frankfurt, who got beaten by Barcelona Tuesday night. Not sure if anybody caught any of the other matches. Barcelona, who went behind, but then had their fourth comeback in a row in all competitions. Hansevlich's side, full of character. They now found themselves two points off the top eight, with Wednesday's action still to come. As I mentioned, Laminya Mald didn't have the greatest of nights again and looked a bit miffed as he was taken off in the 90th minute. Bakas Raschwa came on and made a big difference as Barcelona staged their second half comeback with Jules Koundé getting two goals in 180 seconds.

37:42Elsewhere, Lennart Karl, if you didn't see it, well worth looking it up, takes a ball fizzed at him at a fair height on his left foot and then after a touch manages to find an angle to beat the keeper at the near post with his supposedly weaker foot. He's just full of surprises. they're making those comparisons with this 17 year old in in germany or for this 17 year old in germany and so far he's living up to them yeah those comparisons tom which comparisons you know the 17 year old bursting onto the scene the champions league pretty small okay the mustache is different but in other regards we're talking leo right oh those comparisons right i was trying to think of a comparable German or Bavarian.

38:34I was thinking he doesn't sound very Thomas Mullen. Yeah. Wow. I mean, those are as big as comparisons get. I mean, that's the biggest comparison out there. Oh, we're terrible for it. I would actually say at this stage of his career, his right foot is better than Messi's was. I mean, Messi improved his right foot massively. You heard it here first. To be scoring that. Leonard Kahl better than That kind of finish on your weaker foot is ludicrous. And if you are a player like him that can go either way, that's just transformative for a winger. The fact that he can do that already is incredibly impressive.

39:08I mean, remember how one-footed Messi was early on. Some of those goals he scored, you see that the way he dribbles. But yeah, that's a real strength for Karl. Will Nagelsmann take him to the World Cup? I hope so. I mean, that's the question. Yeah, I mean, I think he has to look at how well Jamin Lemao played for Spain. I think that is the template almost, isn't it? As much as Messi. So, yeah, be amazed if he didn't go. He looked brilliant. Anything else from Tuesday night that we want to touch on? Tom? Big win for Roberto de Zerbi's Marseille after their comeback win against Newcastle in the previous round.

39:48Another comeback win at Union Saint-Gilois. and yeah, they really had to kind of cling on at the end. They went 1-0 down, 3-1 up, got pegged back to 3-2 and then Saint-Gioise had two goals ruled out for offside. But Marseille have had some quite bad luck in the Champions League so far this season so kind of felt like their luck was due to turn and they are at home to Liverpool in their next fixture which is likely to be pretty spicy. It certainly is Crikey Still to come on today's Totally Football Show We'll throw our thoughts back to If that's possible We'll cast our thoughts back to Monday evening And a Premier League win for Manchester United And another defeat for Wolves In the big Monday night game Thoughts on that next

40:50and enjoy us in glorious Technicolor on YouTube at The Totally Show. It's 10th of December today, listener, as we record this. On this day in 1998, UEFA axed ruthlessly the Cup Winners' Cup. It had only been going since 1960, almost four decades' worth of Cup Winners' Cup. English clubs had won it eight times. No one had won it more often, though, than Barcelona with their four Cup Winners' Cups. but UEFA got rid of it and now we've got the Europa Conference League hurrah am I right in thinking no one ever defended it I remember because when Arsenal were trying to in 95 and famously lost to that Naeem goal that was the chat then so I can't remember whether anyone did in the subsequent four years but yeah that was a sort of quirk of the competition and no one ever will I think PSG got PSG got to the final again the season after winning it and lost to Ronaldo's Barcelona.

41:50Yes, they did. If I'm not mistaken. Ronaldo penalty, wasn't it? Yeah, so no one ever did, yeah. I mean, the reason it got scrapped was basically because of the expansion of the Champions League. It didn't really work anymore because he had four teams from each major, well, the biggest leagues in the Champions League eventually. So the cup winners were usually going to be in the Champions League. Actually, I think this season is one season where it probably would work because you had quite a lot of unusual cup winners last year, including Crystal Palace, including Stuttgart, including go-ahead Eagles winning their first cup in Netherlands.

42:22So maybe bring it back for one-off. Bologna, of course. Bologna would be in there as well. So it'd be good this year. It'd be quite fun. Yeah. All right. PSG in France. Oh, no, wait. Anyway, Europa Conference League on Thursday, which you'll see Crystal Palace taking on Shelburne and many other delights as well. Anyway, there you go. Now, back in the Premier League, Man United on Monday night went to Molyneux and beat Wolves 4-1. Man United moving up to sixth spot in the table. Wolves staying very much in bottom place on two points. It is the giant lowest tally after 15 games of a campaign in the history of the top four tiers of English football.

43:06Wow. Wolves currently tracking to reach five points come the end of the season, by my maths at least. They did get a goal, though, having not scored in their previous five games. Do you want to talk about Man United or do you want to talk about the increasingly dramatic situation at Molyneux? Rob Edwards has come in. He's had four defeats from four. And certainly the latter stages of this game looked like they were anything but having a new manager bounce. Yeah, this did feel a little bit potentially like rock bottom, although it feels quite a dangerous thing to say that about this Wolves team because as bad as things are there was also the chance that they could get even worse.

43:47I think the context was already very delicate. You had the fans not even or a large number of fans not even sitting down in their seats until 15 minutes had gone and as soon as they did take their seats they just started chanting against the ownership, against the chairman, very quickly fall behind, manage to equalise and then just get completely blown away in the second half. Jürgen Strand-Larsen gets taken off to ironic cheers, goes off wearing a face of thunder, has to be comforted on the bench by Rob Edwards. Just feels that on top of the very worrying sporting situation that the entire atmosphere has become very toxic as well.

44:30The worst ever winless start to a Premier League campaign is 17 games without victory that was recorded by Sheffield United in 2020. Can Wolves beat that? Well, they are at Arsenal this coming weekend. Then at home to Brentford, we shall see. Tim Spears, in the meantime, Wolves fan, making the point that at least previous terrible sides like your Derbys and your Saints were newly promoted sides, whereas Wolves have been in the Premier League for, what, seven years now. So this is some pretty catastrophic running of the club. And you can understand the supporters' displeasure. Still, United? Oh, sorry, go ahead.

45:05No, just on Wolves, I mean, to Coxie's point earlier about the extent to which people saw Salah coming. Did people, and link to that, you know, newly promoted teams, obviously you're always on the lookout with them. You kind of, by default, they become relegation favourites or in that conversation. But this didn't, I don't feel like people were saying, oh, you know, lookout Wolves are going to be absolutely appalling. I mean, this is a pretty amazing collapse. I do recall Tim Spears being pretty clear that Wolves were really going to struggle, he said, with an ominous look in his eyes when we were previewing the season.

45:43But they're struggling and there's two points. I mean, this is extraordinary. Suddenly the Derby 07-08 conversation doesn't feel so far-fetched. I mean, the funny thing is they haven't actually been this bad until quite recently. I mean, they started relatively poorly. There was a game against Tottenham where they could have won, they conceded late. There was a game against Brighton they could have won and conceded late. The Burnley game, I think they played quite well and considered late. Okay, don't get me wrong. You've got to play to the final whistle. That's part of it. But actually, since the managerial change, they look worse than ever.

46:14The defence looks so bad. And the goal that Mbumo scored, I think six, seven minutes into the second half, Manchester United got in like three or four times in the five minutes after half-time. They just had no defensive line. And yeah, I thought six, seven games in, I thought obviously they're going to struggle, but I don't think there was any sign at that point that they were going to be, you know, we would be talking about them in relation to Derby or Southampton. I mean, they shouldn't be this bad, but it is a right old shambles at the moment. And they've clearly appointed, in my opinion, they've clearly appointed a manager basically to give up on this season.

46:49I mean, he's been in the Premier League once before. They did go down. He did a decent job at Luton, but they did go down. But I think they brought him in. They think this is a long-term thing. Try and get up next season. It just seems like they've given up, to be honest, already. And I think we've kind of got used to seeing Wolves move lots of players on over the summer and bringing people you've not really heard of. And they've generally worked out quite well. And, you know, they lost some really big players. Mateus Cunha, Ryan Aitnuri, Nelson Samedo, the captain. And clearly the players you've been brought in aren't up to scratch.

47:22You look particularly at John Arias, slightly peculiar profile of player to be discovering the Premier League at the age of what? I think he's 28, Columbia International. he was awful against against United and I think if you plug him into a team that works he might look like quite a decent player but he's come in to replace Cunha he's wearing the number 10 shirt and he just looks absolutely miles off it and that sort of very delicate balance that Wolves have generally succeeded in striking over recent years buying and selling every summer this kind of constant churn of players just seems to have you know completely come off the rails a club in a hurry to get down to the championship and get started all over again then by the looks of it could well see the earliest ever relegation at the rate they're going given the fact that other teams have picked up form around them just two points and already 13 points from safety, yikes Manchester United did win this game and by a very respectable scoreline 27 shots they had their most in a Premier League match under Ruben Amorim they're now a point off the top four.

48:27They're also the highest ranked team in the table that don't have European football to contend with. It was against Wolves, but are we seeing now Almir in ball taking shape? It's hard to say because this season, I feel like whenever they've been close to making any sort of statement, they've slightly stumbled. And I don't think beating Wolves tells us that much, given how abject, as we've just said, Wolves have been. So I slightly feel like reserving judgment on United. That said, the lack of European football and no Carabao Cup football, you'd think would and already is proving to be a big advantage, especially in a season where so many teams are in Europe.

49:10They are going to be playing a lot of teams who have just had a midweek game when they haven't. Steps in the right direction, but I don't think we can say a massive sea change at United just yet. The front three look good. Mount and Bumo behind Cunha I think is actually quite a nice balance Cunha is a funny player I think he does get the best out of you know in that role I think as a striker he gets the best out of the two behind him quite well I think you can say a similar thing about Mount and Bumo obviously just comes up with goals I haven't been blown away by Sesco so far and I do I don't really understand why Premier League clubs were so obsessed with signing number nines in the summer, it feels like they've been sidetracked by Haaland putting up incredible numbers but the recent history shows that not many big number nines come in and do well and so far okay early days but Sesko's looked okay, Gioca is slightly underwhelming, hasn't happened at all so far for Isaac I think players like Kunja actually generally are more suited to leading the line in the Premier League rather than the big number nines personally And I think just to talk about whether there has really been any progress under Amarim at all in the year that he's been there.

50:20I think one thing that has improved for United this season is the profile of player they've brought in has made that system more cohesive. If your two number sixes or your two central midfielders are Bruno Fernandes and Casemiro, they need legs around them. They need people willing to put in a shift without the ball. They didn't really have that so much this season. I think this season with Umbermo, with Mason Mount, he's been very good now that he's back fit again the last few weeks. Cunha when he plays there it does look more coherent but to Charlie's point I mean we have been here so many times over the last few weeks couple of good results oh is it working is it all coming together and then they go and you know lose at home to Everton having played against 10 men for over an hour and you're right back at square one okay they also played a back three of basically two fullbacks and a 19 year old in heaven and they got away with it because Wolves just offer nothing really yeah and they're also about to lose in Bomo and Adam Azraoui to AFCON So that could happen.

51:19So true. Before that, next Monday, they're in action again. At home to Bournemouth, who haven't won in six, the Cherries. Hmm. There you go. We'll be previewing all of the weekend's action, of course, in Thursday's Totally Football Show, in which we'll also round up all the matches from the second half of Match Day 6. So do hope you'll be joining us for that, listener. for now it's many many thanks to Michael Cox to Charlie Eccleshire to Tom Williams there and the librarians and to producers Jesse and Charlie and you listener do join us again on Thursday and we look forward to your company then for now from all of us here it's goodbye you've been listening to the Totally Football Show part of the Athletic FC podcast network for more great podcasts just like this one including the The Athletic FC and our dedicated club podcasts, search for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places.

52:20We're also at The Totally Football Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

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