Newcastle blitzed by Barca as Arsenal + Man City do battle at Wembley

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1:57Mark Carey: cloning Harry Kane and Mikel and Pep in heat ahead of this weekend's actual Carabao Cup final plus Premier League the time we're Derby and that big six-pointer on the Seven Sisters Road all in this Totally Football show.

2:17Mark Carey: Thursday the 19th of March we have a brand new Totally For You listener thank you so much for joining us. Again with us today Tash Toting tennis correspondent of The Athletic Charlie Eccleshire lovely to see you again Charlie great to see you too stat stalking editor and pioneer of the now universally accepted listing events chronologically by nought to Game Boy yes scale Duncan Alexander hello I'm very much not making up the numbers because he's all about the data Mark Carey senior data analyst I believe correct good morning James who are the junior data analysts and what kind of what kind of hazing goes on?

2:58I don't want to throw any colleagues or suggest that any colleagues are more junior than myself. But you're the senior one. We have Connor O 'Neill and Tom Harris doing fantastic work as part of our team, headed up by Duncan Alexander, no less. Right. Oh, are you the data editor? Yeah, yeah. It's one of my hats, yes. But, yeah, it's a very hard place to work. Look at Mark. He's cowering. I run a pretty toxic ship.

3:23Mark Carey: How does the data mining occur? in in what sense well like so football gets played and then does one of you go are you seeing streams of green numbers vertically yeah yeah the matrix you did that didn't you actually as part of our thing earlier this week um a matrix meme um we we have yet instant access to all the data all the time right um what do you look for mark what don't we look for we're always keeping our eyes wide open to all data at any one point we have yeah jokes aside we have an Yeah, an automated stream, and we've created many, many templates to be able to get that, not just information data, but insight to your screens and your ears.

4:01Mark Carey: I noticed some really interesting numbers this week. 68 goals scored across the eight last 16 ties. Is that the highest scoring set of last 16 games ever? I haven't checked this. I'll defer to Duncan. Is it? Yes. by six goals from 2016-17. Wow. Which, I'll be honest, I don't really remember. That was the buy-in-10 Arsenal 2 season, so that would have helped. I tend to be an Arsenal fan right now, as no one said. Actually, they probably did because it was post-8-2. Yeah. Eight and a half goals per tie, that is. Too many. Too many? Yeah. Do you reckon? It's edging towards... Getting silly. Yeah.

4:49I don't want to go full Mourinho and hockey scores, but it is a bit too much.

4:52Mark Carey: I was wondering if when the Premier League rolls around this weekend, it's going to feel a little bit flat because nobody's doing sevens and eights. I genuinely missed some low blocks this week. It was too open. I found it disconcerting. It's a knockout game, well, it's a knockout round, but would you get that same... How many teams are scoring? Would you get that in the quarterfinals or semifinals? Of course, the final, it wouldn't be quite like that. That being said, there were quite a lot of goals in the final last year but the caginess would you get that more so because you don't want to you just want to make sure that you're getting through to the final at the semi-finals and then there's more on the line with every round I don't know I would have thought if you're worried later on you're going to be worried in the last 16 as well knockout is knockout but I'm not sure I mean it may well just be an anomaly you reckon well it could be but I mean the courts and semis yes in theory would be tighter but I am always very surprised and pleasantly so by the Champions League the fact that there are often a lot of goals in these games.

5:48And it's not like international tournaments where once it gets to the latter stages, typically there's a bit of lockdown and, you know, you have quite dull games.

5:56Mark Carey: Is it because when teams face teams they're not familiar with, you do tend to get more goals because... Yeah, there is probably an element of that. That, you know, I think a lot of the Premier League, they are so familiar with one another. Right. I mean, I'm sure there's not much left to change. Real Madrid and Man City have so rarely play. All right. Another reason why there's so many goals scored was that there were so many English clubs involved and they shipped goals. My goodness. 28. That's just for the four English teams that went out. 28 goals conceded over the two legs. Everyone's got a theory about this and two sides have managed to go through Arsenal and Liverpool.

6:31Mark Carey: Is it just freak results, tactical ineptitude, fatigue? I do think like and it helped being I was physically away last week. I was in the States and sometimes having a bit of distance. I do think helps because I was sort of suffering whiplash from how quickly we went from, and I tell them, I'm obviously exaggerating a little bit, but when the group stage finished and there were five English teams in the top eight and Newcastle just outside, the narrative was genuinely, and I think with good reason, kind of like, well, you know, English teams are just so dominant and this is sad, you know, and the financial inequality and all this.

7:09And, you know, it does upset me. And then a few weeks later, it was English teams, they can't play, they can't move. They're too tired, they need a winter break. And it was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is, a few weeks ago, we had completely the opposite. And I know the news cycle moves quickly, but I think the reality is probably somewhere in the middle and that's kind of fine. Like English teams do have a lot more money. There are inequalities, that is sad. But, you know, teams from the continents can still beat them, but that also doesn't mean that English teams are all terrible and can't move and need a winter break desperately.

7:40Mark Carey: Right, it is knockout football. so it's fair that teams get knocked out and two English sides have made it through. Only Spain have more sides. Exactly, like two out of eight is kind of fun. I think we're showing a respect to the tournament. We've got the reigning champions Liverpool through and the champions elect Arsenal through. That's kind of what you should have, right? This is the 1990s, two teams doing well in the Champions League. It's showing a reverence for the competition. The teams that came first and second last season who would have qualified back then. Yeah, exactly. And the teams that they came up against as well.

8:09If you think about the Chelsea team which kind of feels like they're kind of always in a bit of a state of flux. They were playing against the holding champions, PSG. There's a bit of context around the Man City-Real Madrid game because they went down to 10 men in the second leg, albeit you could argue that the first leg was kind of done. I mean, it was 3-0, huh? It was 3-0, but the chances that Real Madrid gave up, even when Man City were down to 10 men, especially in the first half, was quite frightening. You would have liked to have at least seen the full tie with two teams both playing with 11 men.

8:40But the idea that actually you break down each individual game and you're like, well, that does kind of make sense. So we try and reverse engineer the narrative sort of holistically, but take each game as it, you know, in isolation. And it does kind of make sense. The Spurs free hit of a qualification also. But even the Spurs one wasn't, I mean, they were very competitive. And we're talking about one of the worst teams in the Premier League. Had they knocked out Real Atletico Madrid, I think there would have then also been a lot of the, what does it say about the state of European football that one of the worst teams in the Premier League can knock out Atletico?

9:11So, I don't know. I think that we're looking for quite extreme narratives when the truth is somewhere in the middle.

9:17Mark Carey: OK, well, let's look at the results then and then tailor some extreme narratives to fit those. Barcelona in the early game on Wednesday blew Newcastle away 7-2, 8-3 on aggregate. That's the joint most goals conceded by an English side in a single game in a major European competition ever. Equal with Spurs. You remember that 7-2 they had against Bayern in 2019? Second day in the job, yeah. Wow. What a start. Barcelona next up will be facing Atletico Madrid, who survived a 3-2 defeat in North London at the hands of a newly spirited Spurs and go through 7-5 on aggregate. Elsewhere, Liverpool made the quarterfinals.

9:55Mark Carey: They were a goal down from their first leg against Galatasaray. But they left them in Disaray, if you will, with a 4-0 win on Wednesday at Anfield. Liverpool will be meeting PSG in their quarterfinal, while Bayern Munich will take on Real Madrid in the other tie, this after the Bavarians' 4-1 win over Atlanta, which made it 10-2 on aggregate. So who watched what on Wednesday, Mark? Barcelona-Newcastle, followed by Liverpool-Galatasserie. All right. Who watched the Spurs game, which apparently was their best performance of the season? Charlie? Yes. Was it? Yeah, I think maybe they beat City away 2-0 right at the start of the season in a very different kind of performance.

10:40But that was an excellent sort of organised defence and then caught City on the break. This was, yeah, this was probably the best attacking performance. They created a load of chances. They played with sort of the spirit that they showed against Liverpool the weekend, but then with a bit of attacking quality. You know, Xavi Simons, kind of foremost, who's a player who struggled this season. He was really good, really dangerous, scored two goals. Colin Moane was good. Tell was excellent as well. Yeah, and I think the mood amongst the Spurs fans is, you know, a lot more positive after last night, even though they went out in the tie.

11:15And it was a shame, like, you wanted them to at least get within one because that really would have made it interesting. They could have gone 2-0 up, couldn't they? Yeah, yeah. And 3-1 up. Pedro Porro had this really nearly scored, really good effort, which would have made it 3-1. Even in the 92nd or 93rd minute, Colin Mawani had a really good chance. And had he scored, there was enough time that they might have forced another chance. It would have been... A little panic station. Yeah, it really would have been, especially as the game felt completely dead, or the tie felt completely dead. But then, as I said, he gave away a penalty pretty needlessly, basically on 90 minutes.

11:49And then all of a sudden, it was like, oh, maybe.

11:51Mark Carey: Five minutes to score two and you do it. And Spurs, no strangers to last-minute exploits in the Champions League to secure progression. Very true. 36 shots in total from the two sides. Spurs had 11 on target, which is a new look for them. Although I suppose maybe that's what they've been doing all season in the Champions League. Broadly, though, a week ago, Igor Tudor was HR's most wanted. Yeah. And now, where do we stand? Where does the Spurs fans stand on him? I think he's actually, well, a couple of things have gone in his face. I mean, obviously the couple of results they've had. I do also think he's been helped in a strange sort of way.

12:32There were a couple of interviews with him where I think Spurs fans actually, he came out with credit because he gave some quite short shrift to some of the questioning he was getting, which could have gone either way. It might have been seen as a bit like, that's a bit rude or a bit off. I think Spurs fans kind of liked it. They were a bit like, stop getting, it's good not to be pushed around.

12:51Mark Carey: Do you think some Spurs fans actually, in retrospect, think that him being tough on Kinski, on the tough courses of Kinski, is the kind of firm hand that this squad needs? Yeah, I don't know. I think that was such an extreme example. Maybe not. But they, you know, their running stats were very good against Liverpool on the weekend. I think there is a sense in a very short space of time, again, with how quickly things changed that, yeah, he may be someone who is a bit tougher and at least has got them running around playing in spirit. that all said and I was talking to Mark about this before I feel like so many times this season and in recent seasons the Champions League is so distinct from the Premier League and teams can have very good results and performances in the Champions League I mean like Spurs have done all season basically that's like you said they've won all their home games Champions League and have had a terrible home record in the league so it could all change again against Forrest I mean that's the key one really and that will decide whether the international break is spent thinking is he going to get sacked or whether actually he's doing a half decent job That narrative's still out there, is it?

13:54Mark Carey: Yeah. If they have a bad result against Forrest. This was the Champions League, but it did come after another fine performance away at Anfield at the weekend. But you're right, back to the day job now battling relegation and Forrest at the weekend. I think Archie Gray, who I don't think you mentioned. He was superb, yeah. He was absolutely magnificent. I think Llorente even shook his hand when he was substituted because it was fair play. Bergvot came off the bench. Which is huge. Bergvau coming back is really significant. What position did Archie Gray occupy? I mean, nominally central midfield, but he was kind of everywhere.

14:29He was like a young Declan Rice. Yeah. I mean, he is so incredibly versatile. And yeah, he came out of the game with a lot of credit. But yeah, I mean, I think that's the big thing. Someone like Bergvau coming back, if they can have, you know, they've still got so many players out, but if they can turn that from like, you know, double figures into even half a dozen, that would make an enormous difference. They've missed Bergwijn a lot. So I think that will be key for them if they can get some of those players back. In many ways, a perfect result. I think they needed to almost go out of the Champions League as well to focus on the league.

15:06And arguably, I'm sure we'll come onto it in greater depth, that the Nottingham Forest game is the biggest game of the season. I think Jack Pitbrook described it as the biggest league game in a generation. For Spurs? For Spurs, yeah. So I think that this is an extent to which the Champions League became maybe a happy distraction for a short period, but especially after the first leg, they knew that they were probably going to lose this tie going into the second leg. It's almost like, get that out of the way and just use a bit of positive momentum to then go into the Forest game and try and get a bit of cohesion.

15:37Mark Carey: Well, the first win that they've had under Igor Tudor, and they don't have to face Barcelona twice, which Atletico will be doing. It's sad because the dream of a team in the Championship also being in the Champions League is officially over. For now? For now. For now. You've seen some Spurs. Yeah. Charlie, what do you think? Biggest game? They've been in for titles? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think games feel so huge in the moment. I mean, I remember they had... And just to show again how the results of games that we think are so titanic and decisive, if they played Arsenal in what was essentially a Champions League playoff in 2022, Spurs won the game 3-0, which then ended up securing them a place in the Champions League.

16:21And again, I'm barely exaggerating to say the narrative at that point was Arsenal are now condemned to a lifetime of sort of Europa League purgatory, while Spurs are in the Champions League, happy days forever. And the subsequent four years haven't quite worked out like that. So, you know, it's hard to know. So yes, I mean, obviously them being relegated were that to happen would be one of the most significant things. But I think there's a world in which they don't win this game and they stay up. There's also a world in which the other way around. So, you know, it's undoubtedly, though, it is a massive game.

16:59And yes, you could say bigger than the one last night. Really?

17:04Mark Carey: Very good. Atletico Madrid go through. They've got the Madrid derby coming up this weekend. It's a big one. and they will be playing Barcelona in the quarterfinals who they beat in the semifinals of the Copa del Rey in a pair of very lively ties. They were 4-0 winners against the Catalans in the first leg and then lost 3-0 in a kind of similar dynamic to yesterday but still went through on Agra. As for Barcelona, well, they had a busy time of it on Wednesday at home to Newcastle. We'll talk about that game next.

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20:06Goal! And also, dole from Ramsey

20:17Mark Carey: with that intriguing choice of cross-field pass attempts. That was Barcelona's seventh goal set up for Rafinha, who actually scored a brace on the night. Lewandowski also scored a brace. But coming, I believe, let's check this, he's the oldest player ever to score in the knockout rounds of the Champions League. 37 years and 209 days. So many questions about this performance. Who saw this game? I did. It's hard to know where to start because, I mean, if you just looked at the goals alone, I've almost forgotten the order of which they come about because there are so many to go through. But it is worth starting by the fact that Newcastle were in the game from the first tie, the first leg, sorry, and up to the half time in this game as well.

20:59Mark Carey: So, yeah, certainly in the first half, when the two teams were trading goals, they seemed the more likely, they seemed the more confident. And if you had to bet, you might well have gone with the Magpies coming out the winners. Yeah, absolutely. Especially with the, it's spoken widely about Newcastle having the intensity with which they play. but the way that Barcelona like to squeeze the pitch and play that high line. It was the front three of Anthony Alanga, Harvey Barnes and Anthony Gordon. They like to move at pace and Newcastle were doing it really well of moving it to the side and trying to circumnavigate Barca's high line rather than playing a through ball through the centre of which Barca typically step up.

21:35They were going around the sides and then just making sure that the player to receive the cross was just behind the ball. It didn't need to be behind the teammate, behind the ball to just finish first time which is essentially how those two goals came about for Newcastle in the first half. But they were getting in behind quite well, being a real threat to Barcelona. Barcelona still had plenty of chances in the first half as well before they pulled away. But they were trading blows, as you say, trading blows and trading goals. And the first half especially was incredible. You didn't know which way it was going to swing.

22:02Mark Carey: So 2-2 until the 52nd minute, a substantial amount of stoppages on the end of the first half, when there was a penalty. No, no, it's just a shame. It's not that it wasn't a penalty, it was just a shame. But at that point, Newcastle still looked at it because they'd responded to all the other Barcelona goals. So what happened in the second half then? They sort of capitulated. I mean, the mistake by Ramsey at the very end was kind of, it summed up their second half, really. I think as much as anything, they tried to go man for man a little bit with Barcelona and they're playing at the Camp Nou where it is obviously a big pitch.

22:36And they were doing it well where they'd been quite disciplined in the first half, going man for man and stepping when they needed to. And then Sandro Tonali was doing the, when a centre-back stepped up, Sandro Tonali would then tuck in a little bit. But then I think maybe at half-time, Barca just sort of figured out if we maybe pull them apart a little bit more, those gaps will just be that bit too big and then we can exploit it. And that's essentially what happened for the Firmin-Lopez goal and then subsequently for the Lewandowski goal that I can't remember which order it was, but the one in open play and not from the corner.

23:05And once you've pulled ahead that much, then it was too half of Nugust to get back.

23:10Mark Carey: Tonali going off injured, How much of a factor was that then? Yeah, a notable factor. I think it's going to be notable for the weeks to come as well because obviously without Bruno Gimraes as well sort of thinking about towards the end of the season. I wouldn't say it was the reason, him coming up was the reason why they subsequently lost to the scoreline they did. But he was doing well in the first half to kind of plug gaps as much as possible. But I think with the quality of Barcelona, they're so exciting because they're quite fallible of leaving space in behind at times. But then when they go forward, but they can score some devastating goals.

23:41And the quality of the finishes were incredible as well, but you can't really argue with it when you actually watch it back. It was credit to Barcelona and a little bit of naivety from Newcastle, especially in the second half.

23:54Mark Carey: They are such a young team as well. Lewandowski must feel a little bit like the babysitter in there. The average age is, let's see, 25 years and 18 days, which when you consider that... What age is Rafinha? He must be, what, 30? 29. 29. Lewandowski, 37 years and a bit. Yeah. So the rest of them, you're Firmin Lopez, you're Yamals, etc. It was the youngest starting XI, I think, they've had in the Champions League, am I right in saying? In the knockout stages, yeah. In the knockout stages, rather. But it is, yeah, it's mad that Lamin-Yamal is less than half of Robert Lewandowski's age. I would be so interested to see if they play Arsenal in a semi-final.

24:31Because Arsenal all season have basically come, certainly in the Premier League, have come up against these very low blocks. and so in a way would they be kind of licking their lips but then also like you say Mark they are just so devastating going forward I feel like it would just force Arsenal to show sides of themselves that we haven't really been able to see this season and could be crazily high scoring as well

24:56Mark Carey: What do you think about the chances against Atletico Madrid Mark? Do you have an opinion on that? I think Barca will progress I think we know that Atleti like to maybe be a bit more disciplined and they won't maybe get pulled around quite as much. But I think Barcelona would have too much. The first game is at Barcelona, right? Because Atleti have inherited Tottenham's home advantage, which is the way it works in this new paradigm we live in. Which we love. I think that actually helps Barcelona a little bit. Obviously, we saw in the Copa del Rey when they had the away leg first, it didn't go too well.

25:31They went out in the semi-final last year, didn't they, when they were second leg at Inter, Barca. Yeah, they're not infallible. But I agree with Charlie. I think two games between Barcelona and Arsenal would be, you know, delicious.

25:45Mark Carey: Okay. Barca have to get past Atletico Madrid. They also have to get their first-choice keeper back, which at Chesney having to make an appearance yesterday for the first time since November. John Garcia going off injured, but they think he should be back for the quarterfinals. Oblak was also missing for Adesco yesterday. That is true. That is very true. It says it would be a return to the Emirates. How much of a knock will all of this be for Newcastle, that second half in particular, ahead of their fixture this weekend, which is also a big one? It's the Tyneweird derby. Yeah, you look back at the reverse fixture against Sunderland, that was such a calamitous own goal for Nick Voltemar, wasn't it?

26:27Good header. Good header, good finish, yeah, you might say. That was the Premier League game with the least XG in it this season, the Sunderland-Newcastle game. It was attritional. It was almost the direct opposite of that 7-2. So, yeah, I think Newcastle have kind of had the season they had a couple of years ago when they were in the Champions League where it's affected everything else. You know, they're seven points off a Champions League spot. So, I mean, I guess they'll try and aim to get into the Europa League. But they are slightly in danger, as you said, with Tonali's injury as well, just sort of the season kind of fading away a little bit.

27:04They are in a slightly weird cycle. It's a bit like, you know, you talk about yo-yo clubs. They're kind of in that and that they either are having a good league season because they're not really in Europe or the Champions League. But then once they're in the Champions League, their Premier League, they can't really do both. Like it is such a big step up. It makes me curious about Manchester United next season. You know, they will then have the Champions League to contend with how do they manage that? And we've seen it, we talked about it with Chelsea yesterday, who last season was sort of a halfway house.

27:34They almost didn't have European football. Yes, they're the conference league, but they could rotate as many players as they wanted each week. They were playing Kerry Dixon in that. I mean, but it is such a drain on resources. I think the way that Eddie Howe likes Newcastle to play as well, I think last season they had the highest share of time spent sprinting in and out of possession more than any other side. So the way that he likes to play is with that high intensity, and it's not sustainable to play European games in midweek and then domestic games in the league to the same extent. So I think we spoke about it before with Newcastle, that on their day, they can beat anyone and they can blow anyone away, but it's just sustaining it over the last period.

28:10And look at the fact they've been without Jo Linton, Guimaraes, and Nautunali for periods, and that's such a kind of core of that team, which if you're only playing in the Premier League, you can kind of ride that out a bit. I knew you had the numbers, Mark, but I know there's a slight poo-pooing of the notion that English teams are tired in Europe but the number of sprints in the Premier League is so much higher than every other league and it is very hard to manage both competitions.

28:38Mark Carey: Time with Derby is midday on Sunday. Sunderland with a win will move above Newcastle in the standing. As a general point, keep them secure but also particularly in that environment. In light of that game, Topical Thank you Duncan Liverpool beat Galatasaray 4-0 Woof This has also been cited as best game in a long time Best performance in a long time by this club Although it was in a second leg against a Galatasaray team Who famously don't turn up in away matches And even more so when they come to the Premier League Yeah I mean I watched them in the second leg against Juventus And even with 10 men Juventus absolutely battered them So I didn't have much confidence they would maintain their advantage at Anfield.

29:23And so it was.

29:25Mark Carey: So it proved 4-0. Dominic Slobberslay opening the scoring with a delicious touch with his wrong foot from a corner. He had to adapt a little bit because he's right-footed and that he wouldn't have chosen to have side-footed him with his left. But the referee was kind of in the way as well. I think he had to pivot a little bit to get out of the way of the referee and then just slotted it into the bottom corner, no pun intended. but Galatasaray were toothless as much as Liverpool were very good they were still frustrating at times in sort of building a bit of momentum in the early stages at least second half they were excellent but Galatasaray were very much toothless especially in the first half where the momentum shifted towards Liverpool because Victor Asimene it was quite an odd one he I think his wrist caught Ibrahim Mekunate's knee I think and essentially I think it's fractured his arm so for the for much of the first half, he was just kind of walking around trying to shake it off, if you can shake off a fracture.

30:21He looked a bit like a kid at Cub Camp who's hurt themselves and is really kind of morose about it. Weirdly, that wasn't the worst injury they suffered all night.

30:30Mark Carey: Oh no, let's not even talk about the other one. Noah Lang, poor chap, is going to have, I imagine, a period out while they sort his hand out. Very unfortunate. No Galatasaray fans at Anfield because of their ban. Oh, we're the 200? The VIPs. It roped off in a VIP section, but they didn't look very vociferous. Not a good evening for them. Vociferous is important, Peter. Less welcome to hell, more welcome to shellfish. Does that work? Yeah. Fine. That might even have been on the invitations. I don't know. 32 shots from Arnie Slott's side, 16 on target. The visitors only managed one within the frame of the goal.

31:10Mark Carey: Liverpool even got a goal and a vintage one from Mo Salah. Burtz, now Salah, gets it back again, changes the angle! Oh my word!

31:29Mark Carey: What a way for Mo Salah to bring up 50 goals in the Champions League. A trademark Mo Salah curling finish. rolling back the years the Egyptian king Liverpool 4 Galatasaray 0 a half century up in the competition for the great Mo Salah yeah excellent excellent finish and he should have scored and it's no exaggeration so he should have scored a hat-trick I think given the chances that he had he had a penalty in the first half as well hit the bar hit the bar when he should have definitely got it on target there were so many chances and again it sounds like a cliche where you say oh they could have had seven or eight but you watch back all of those chances those shots on target and there's a very realistic possibility that they could and should have got had two disallowed as well didn't they?

32:11Two disallowed the final one, I don't know if you saw that but it was a Virgil van Dijk header that was no one was really around him and the goalkeeper just sort of flapped at it completely fell to the floor but in again it shows the difference between the Premier League and our league and European football whereby it was the goalkeeper's mistake, he fell to the floor and then it was blown for a foul that McAllister ended up scoring but by that point it was academic but It's a strange game though because A Liverpool now have to play PSG which I'm fairly confident will be a step up and there was a lot of talk during commentary and stuff about this is what we want to see from Liverpool, this is their back and it's like they're not, they're playing Galatasaray at home.

32:54Well I said exactly the same to Mark, I was like it's just such a different, you know their next game is which we'll probably come to, is Brighton away that's a far harder assignment in my mind than a Galatasaray team who really don't travel very well. Welcome to Hove.

33:10Mark Carey: Nice. Exactly, yeah. Liverpool have actually not won, I think, or lost indeed, and they lost three visits to Falmer, to the Amex. Not one would make sense. I remember they drew one a couple of seasons ago. Paris Saint-Germain, though, they did score eight goals against Chelsea, so that's going to be an interesting, tougher test, you feel. Of course, they faced each other in the Champions League last season. That was an interesting moment in the season because I think up until that point, and Mark will know more, but Liverpool looked infallible and then they played the away leg in Paris and they got absolutely dominated.

33:44They won but got battered. Yeah, and everyone was like, well, that was just a one-off. And then weirdly, they played okay at Amford. I think they had been better.

33:52Mark Carey: Yeah, but then... Donnarumma was the star. A 1-0 win for PSG, which took its pounties. He saved a couple of those. He's not there anymore. And that was also such a turning point for PSG because I don't think anyone really, you know, because they hadn't, obviously we talked about it, they weren't great in the group stage, etc, etc. And then, you know, after they lost that first leg, I think it was a bit of like, oh, same old PSG. Like, you know, they've played well, but when it comes to it, they've kind of bottled it and then showed incredible spirit. They got that early goal, didn't they? And then kind of toughed it out, won on pens and went from there.

34:24And Liverpool, yeah, obviously they countered to the league because there was no competition, but they weren't great sort of from that point on in the league either. Broke the spell. That game really spooked Arnasla. He's spoken about it in press conferences and interviews a lot since then of just how PSG played and the rotations that he played with. I think he used it as a reference point of the importance of set pieces where he said that they actually ended up doing a lot better in the second leg as we spoke about. And had they then converted some set pieces, that would have been the difference at that elite level where the margins are so thin.

34:53He's referenced it a lot to the extent that you need to be like, relax. Luis Enrique is not a god. He's a very good manager, but he really uses it as a reference point. so it would be nice for him to potentially exercise those demons.

35:04Mark Carey: Or maybe terrifying. Yeah, absolutely. Demons can be very scary. And this PSG aren't as good as that PSG, but this Liverpool are not as good, so we'll see. We will. Final quarter, final tie is also a tasty-looking one because it is Bayern Munich against Real Madrid, the most played fixture in the history of this competition and its various iterations. Real Madrid, who of course on Tuesday made it past Man City 5-1 on aggregate. at Bayern on Wednesday seeing off Atalanta they were 6-1 up from the first leg they added another four goals at the Allianz Arena two from Harry Kane actually the first a penalty which he had to take twice second was very nice and he fought off a couple of Atalanta defenders span and shot you had Lennart Karl scoring ooh a lovely breakaway goal from Diaz as well right at the end the finish yeah that was such a cultured finish You don't see enough of those anymore.

36:01You just dink the goalkeeper. I love those finishes. Do you not see enough of those anymore? I feel like you see less of them. It was very Lionel Messi-esque, I thought, the way that he finishes. I don't think. You see many, maybe in our league, going back to the Premier League, you don't see quite as many of them. You need to be in a lot of... You need to be in a dink in a corner. Exactly. With a header. Yeah.

36:17Mark Carey: Harry Kane moving up to 46 goals for the season, which is best of a return. He's just so good. Like, it's, you know, what more can you say about him? but like we I think it was last week there was a thing the Athletic did about like most underrated players and obviously Kane is incredibly highly rated I still don't think he's it's quite appreciated just how good he is and I do think a lot of that is we got used to it or maybe he's not the most glamorous but he is I mean like his goal that the second goal yesterday the skill and then the finish it's just you just it's unbelievable what he does his numbers the way it plays he passed to Diaz and then but a lovely little dink over the defender's foot.

37:01Yeah, his range of passing is incredible. Well, that's the other thing, isn't it? He now operates as a sort of, you know, beck and bar style, deep-lying midfielder, defender. He does everything. While scoring 46 goals. He's the player Paul Warhol has dreamt of being, essentially. But it's in and out of possession, because the way that Bayern Munich, without going too much down the tactical route, the way that Bayern like to play is that they'll play man for man out of possession, but they will follow the opponent all the way if they need to. So Harry Kane, sometimes we speak about him then dropping into maybe a centre-back position or a defensive midfield position in possession and then he'll spray those passes.

37:34But sometimes out of possession, such as the discipline with which they play, that he will then be forced to follow the opponent defensively into those positions as well. But there's still a cohesion to it, the way that Bayern play. They know as long as they stick with their man and fulfil those roles, then they'll be OK. And then they can spring forward at pace once they do win the ball back, as we kind of saw for the Lewis Diaz goal. wow

37:56Mark Carey: he'll be totally knackered for the World Cup then that is the only thing oh yeah he's getting an ankle injury in late April nailed on but the only team I've seen cope with that admirably this season were Arsenal in the league stage it took them like 20 minutes first 20 minutes Bayern were really it was baffling Arsenal but they got to terms with it but I think that's what's interesting about Bayern playing Real Madrid is that Real Madrid none of that applies to Real Madrid does it they'll just be like just shrug and be like we'll just do something you can do that That reminds me of when Kane was at Spurs, I remember us having a discussion on if you could clone Harry Kane, how many would you start for Spurs?

38:34Because he was also their best defender at set pieces and all of that kind of thing. I think we got...

38:40Mark Carey: How many? About eight, I think. Eight Canes. Something like that, yeah. Who kept their place? I'm trying to remember exactly who was playing at that time. I think we would have kept Son, yeah. Kept Son, okay. And maybe Lloris. Although Kane has gone in goal, did go in goal for Spurs. Well, we should mention actually Bayern, there was this free sign of excitement over the notion they'd have to give an unblooded 16-year-old his debut between the post for this game. But Urbic was actually part of it. There was concussion protocols and that, but he played in this. Anyway, sorry, yeah. So, yeah, I think we probably would have given him one of the centre-back spots because he's such a quick learner.

39:20He's so good already at set pieces, he'll probably work it out. midfield. He'd raised in a half. Yeah, and happily, you can imagine him in years to come playing as a, a bit like how Rooney did, not that successfully, drop into midfield. I mean, if you listen, Harry, sorry, but I wouldn't have him at left back. Yeah. Why is that, Duncan? I don't know. I just think that's maybe the one position I wouldn't... Too specialised. Yeah, but I mean... Why the left back? Well, because he's predominantly right-footed and I'm just trying to make a case for someone not being Harry Kane, been on the team essentially.

39:53Ben Davis or Harry Kane. Yeah.

39:56Mark Carey: Technology is even as we speak catching up with that enticing notion. It won't be in place for the quarterfinals though which will be with us from the 7th of April. 7th of April it's what two weeks ago? If you've seen the cutaway of the pitch at the Bernabeu where there's all the layers to it that goes down you've seen that picture? Because they have you know like multiple pitches all very modern but if you're going to clone a footballer that looks like the sort of place they would spawn from. Right. So you can't rule it out. They have a doctor who could probably put something together for you.

40:28Mark Carey: Yeah. Well, I don't know. Oh, it's almost the weekend, everybody. And that means lots of football. We'll get into what awaits next.

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44:00Mark Carey: 4-4. Last time they met, that was in December. Saturday then at 12.30, you've got United's top five rivals, Liverpool heading to Brighton. Brighton have won three of the last four games in the league. Brighton are kind of one of the Premier League's NPCs, if you know what I mean. Another one of them will be in action at three o 'clock. Fulham will be hosting Burnley. Scott Parker returning to a club that he brought up to the Premier League and then took straight back down to the Championship. Dot, dot, dot. and at 5.30 on Saturday, Everton Chelsea. Chelsea who are currently outside the Champions League places on a run of five points from their last five league games.

44:41Mark Carey: At 8 o 'clock, for some reason, you've got Leeds against Brentford, then three games on Sunday. Newcastle-Sunderland at 12. Then at 2.15, those two key games in the relegation battle, Spurs hosting Forest and West Ham heading to Aston Villa. The 4.30 slot has been cleared for the event taking place at Wembley Stadium, which is the Carabao Cup final. Arsenal against Man City. Duncan and Charlie, you're both going along to this game. Are you working? No. You're going on just to drink it in? Yeah. That's great. Duncan, you will be also going along just as a fan? As a guardian, essentially. I see, right.

45:25My son supports Arsenal. Right. I mean, you know, like Charlie, I just want a good game of football in the spirit of the Carabao.

45:33Mark Carey: Well, are we anticipating a good game of football? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. OK, the Gunners looking... Well, I mean, that said, actually, Arsenal's games against City have often been really not very good. So maybe not. I don't know. I think historically the Carabao Cup final is a better game than the FA Cup final. Yes, I think that's definitely true. They also met in a community shield at Wembley A few years ago Which was quite a good game Yeah Ended 1-1 Yeah I think the vibes going into this game And coming out of this game Were so important Because Okay, for the title battle Yeah Well, yes But I just think So Arsenal are looking to pick up their first silverware in six years Yes City are looking to avoid a second straight trophy-less season Because they've still got the FA Cup But the Premier League title looks an increasingly distant possibility and they're now out of the Champions League.

46:26Mark Carey: But tell me about the vibes. Well, I think if you look at the Premier League table, it looks healthy for Arsenal, but City have got a game in hand, going to Palace. They have struggled in that fixture sometimes, but you'd imagine they'd beat this iteration of Oliver Glasner's gloomy outfit. And then they've also got Arsenal at home in a few weeks. So win those, it's a three-point league. And they're out of the Champions League, which may help. They'll be resting up and or doing training. So, yeah, I think for Arsenal, as it is, you know, for all the progress they've made under Mikhail Teta, it is, as you say, six years since they've won anything.

47:01Bizarrely, they haven't won this competition since 1993. They've only won it twice in their history. Yeah. From eight finals. I mean, it's been a bit of a curse competition. It's one of the first football games I can remember and the first football stat I can ever remember. Go on then. Because it was against Liverpool and Ian Rush put Liverpool in the lead and I remember the commentator saying, when Ian Rush had scored, Liverpool have never lost the game. Which in 1987 is impressive because he'd been playing for them for most of the 80s. But lo and behold, Arsenal came from behind a 1-2-1 and I was like, but the commentator said this, and this happened.

47:35What a juxtaposition. Shall I make this my entire life run?

47:40Mark Carey: What if it was match the day and they'd led into the game by saying, Ian, Liverpool had never lost a game when Ian Rush had scored. You'd have known exactly what the score was going to be. Back to the Transformers. But yeah, the 1993 game, we're talking about bad games. Right. Because they played Sheffield Wednesday in the League Cup final and the FFG final and that went to replay and they were not good. So I'm hoping for a better game than that. But the League Cup one was the best out of those three. True. In keeping with your... But for Steve Morrow. Why for Steve Morrow? Well, he was hoisted upon Tony Adams' shoulders in the celebrations and Adams just dropped him and he landed straight on his collarbone, did the old cyclist collarbone.

48:20And it was, you can tell it was his arm that was broken. I think it might have been multiple. It was a long way down. And he then missed the FA Cup final still with that injury, I seem to remember. Yeah, there's a picture of... A few months later. Yeah, he collected his League Cup winners medal at the FA Cup final. Yeah. Crossed dreams that I didn't want to see crossed. Yeah. Why was that? at very separate competitions no no why did he collect

48:45Mark Carey: his league cup because he was could they not have found another occasion to give him his medal next time you pop him by Wembley yeah exactly it was a different time you're going to have to pick it up I'm afraid couldn't they have mailed it to me DHL in 1993 right wow ok these two teams did meet in the 2018 league cup final which was a 3-0 win for City in what was Guardiola's first trophy in English football back then the vibes coming out of it Duncan what do you think how much impact does this have on the title race what happens on Sunday I think quite a lot I think if Arsenal win I mean it's the first domino in what could be a historic season if they don't win I think both I think to be fair I think Mikhail Atesra and the team will handle it okay but you worry for the fan base yeah I don't think it'll make that much of a difference because it's the sort of thing again the news cycle moves so quickly that yes there will be a torrent of is this the moment that destabilized Arsenal and it might well be I just think the players are so much better at compartmentalizing those sorts of things I think there's every chance they lose this game and then in a few weeks they have a good league result and it's like that's all right move on in the same way if they win in the Carabao Cup let's say they then drop points against Bournemouth in the next league game then it's back to is this the greatest bottle job in history so I just think they're very self-contained things I think also the fact there is now a little bit more of a gap means it might feel slightly less impactful also there's an international break there's then an FA Cup weekend so even after the Carabao Cup there's three weeks like the news cycle would have moved on there have been multiple stages and so I think it will be talked about in that way I think in reality it's not that important for it's a huge thing in its own right it's a trophy Yeah.

50:37No, I agree. I think had the league been in both teams' hands, as it had been a couple of weeks ago, I think then you can maybe sort of talk the narrative up a little bit to say that if City were to win, they'd put the pressure on Arsenal just that little bit more. But the fact that it is still in Arsenal's hands, even if they were to lose the cup game, I don't think it would have a massive effect. And I do think, to your point, the news cycle is the news cycle, and the elite sports people are the elite sports people, and they can separate the team. If only we had some control over the news cycle.

51:04Sadly not. I mean, it is incredible that in all competitions, Arsenal only lost three games. And I was thinking...

51:11Mark Carey: City have lost nine. City have lost nine, yeah. And also, you know, we're talking there about how difficult it is to juggle these competitions. And so maybe there is something to be said for kind of managing your way through these games, even if it's not thrilling for the neutral. I was thinking as well, this is an incredible stat, and I haven't fully fact-checked it, but I'm pretty sure just off the top of my head. I don't think Arsenal at any point this season have trailed by more than a goal. I don't think they've ever been 2-0 down or a two-goal margin, which in the space of, I mean, they must have played about 50 games.

51:40They hadn't trailed at all in the Champions League until that corner from Leverkusen. The whole of the league phase, they hadn't trailed at all, never mind by more than one goal. So that would check out. It's kind of crazy. I mean, one thing that is... Maybe that'll change on the weekend. If you look back at the Champions League, Arsene Wenger, in fact, was a man who kind of devalued the competition. it was known as the worthless cup for a while because he sort of pioneered playing your up and coming youngsters which is fair enough but it has become teams are taking it much more seriously now big teams Will they still

52:14Mark Carey: field Kepa? That's the question Will City play James Trafford? Yes Will Arsenal play Kepa? Kepa with a with a chequered record He's a legacy Carabao Carabao and he bleeds milk or Rumblows or Fizzy Energy Drink or Carling. But what's interesting with that, Wenger even carried on that policy to the 2007 final. You remember Theo Walcott, that was his first goal for Arsenal. He still played that really youthful team and obviously now it's accepted that as you go on, you play a more serious team. I think that Kepa and Trafford, Donnarumma thing is really interesting and you almost feel like, Arteta should just call Pepin.

52:54Like, what are you doing? Like, let's do it. Like, either we both do it or neither of us do it. It feels a bit unfair if one goes with their first choice and one doesn't. Do you think they do speak? I don't. I was talking about this the other day with my sister. I don't, I mean... It's a shame, isn't it? Because they were colleagues. I bet they do. You reckon they do? But do you not think it would be too awkward and a bit like, would both not be constantly thinking like, are you trying to psych me out here? Exactly, like what's going on here? But I do love that idea that he could just be like, what are you doing?

53:22Okay, cool, yeah, I'll do Kepa then.

53:24Mark Carey: Like in Heat, when Pacino and De Niro sat down for coffee. Exactly. Yeah. but with Arteta and Guardiola. And talking about Kepa. Yeah. And one obviously could screw the other over and lie and be like, oh yeah, no, no, I'm going to do it. It would just be nice for them to, you know, they're both in the spotlight, both facing unimaginable pressure in football terms. Yeah. Nice for them to speak to somebody else who gets it. Yeah. But also Donnarumma has looked a bit flawed in recent weeks. Oh, really? I think he's made a few mistakes, whereas Dava Reyes has been, And I think the last few games have probably been his best.

53:59You have to play Kepa. Though, remember, I mean, Donnarumma... Once you play him, you can't bring him off. We know that. Donnarumma last season in the Champions League, that still kind of haunts Arsenal, I think, a little bit. Those PSG in both legs. Yeah, I mean, he made some unbelievable saves.

54:14Mark Carey: Well, there you go. Enjoy. Enjoy the game at Wembley, 4.30, Sunday afternoon. While they're playing in the league, we've still got the race for top five and the battle at the bottom to enjoy. Spurs against Nottingham Forest. We talked about Spurs. Forest, they're seven games without a win now in the Premier League. They are playing on Thursday night, tonight as we record, when they'll be away in Denmark up against Michelin to lead that tie 1-0 from the first leg. Not scoring much, Forest. A stat from producer Charlie. Chris Wood is the third highest scorer for the club in the Premier League and he hasn't actually had a goal since matchday one.

54:52Mark Carey: Incredible. There you go. So Spurs, I would think the favourites going into that game. I think so, yeah. But their home form is so, so bad in the league that you just, you never know. And Forrest did get a really good away result, albeit just a draw, at Manchester City recently as well. That is true. That is true. West Ham, meanwhile, who are level on points with Forrest but behind on goal difference and thus in the bottom three, are at Aston Villa. West Ham with much the better form of these two claret sides. they are just two defeats in their last 12 matches in all competitions while Villa have had three defeats in a row.

55:28Mark Carey: They're also in the Europa League on Thursday night. They're up against Lille. They're 1-0 up from the first leg of that tie. Will Crescensio Somerville be back for West Ham? I don't know. That does feel really key. Although they did well without him against City last weekend. They did, albeit they only had one shot. So, you know, could do with Somerville back. yeah I mean both those games are you know do feel so significant I do wonder with Forest as well coming off the back of that Europa League game how big a factor that will be yeah I mean West Ham are yeah of those three they are very much the team in form what even more than Spurs do you feel?

56:10yeah I mean Spurs in the league are in a dreadful I mean sort of generationally bad bit of form so yeah I mean I guess depends how much I think the mood will be very different off the back of Wednesday. And I think there's been a really concerted effort. You know, there were going to be kind of protests at this game on Sunday, I suppose, but they've changed course and they're saying, no, this isn't the time for that. Let's get behind the team. And I think there is, you know, there is a real kind of let's all get behind the team, pull in the same direction. I think then having then done that with the result not to go their way, I think there would be such a sense of deflation.

56:47Mark Carey: Particularly if West Ham gets something at Aston Villa, which if they do, could be interesting for the top five race as well, because Villa, although fourth or only, three points above, Chelsea in sixth. So this weekend, you've got Liverpool, as mentioned, down at Brighton, who they've beaten twice already this season, both at Anfield. Man United, who look pretty comfortable in third place, are at Bournemouth, who themselves, though, are on a 10-game unbeaten run, the Cherries. And Chelsea make the trip to Everton. hmm what are your thoughts on that well Chelsea have had a really bad record Everton away obviously now it's a different stadium so does that kind of uh change that dynamic you'd think it would a bit I mean Everton aren't very good at home either talking about home form so I looked at this earlier if you looked at their home form only and looked at the points they've accrued they'd be 14th if it's their away form they'd be fourth so and in the actual league table they're somewhere in between, as you would suspect.

57:48But Everton, I always find this interesting. It's been spoken about widely in terms of a new stadium and whether or not you can really get that momentum early on. And the subsequent seasons will probably be stronger. But yeah, they're not great at home, Everton. So I watched them last week at Arsenal. And they did, even though it was the whole narrative and the headlines were about Max Dalman, rightly so, for 88 minutes, Everton were really, really good. Without both their centre-backs as well. Without both their main centre-backs. I don't know whether either of them will be back in Jared Branthwaite and James Tarkovsky, but if they almost treat it as, in a way, a fixture in that regard of making sure they're really disciplined out of possession against the Chelsea side who will often take the game to them, I think it could play out similarly.

58:28Mark Carey: The problems that Chelsea have begun to have under Liam Rossenia, how well does Moyes' set-up play into that? Not hugely in the sense that they've been picked apart a little bit with their man-for-man system in recent weeks, the Newcastle game being a really obvious example of that. It was a crazy goal to concede. Everton have got some really good technical players. I think people maybe sleep on just how good they are. In Jai. In Jai, yeah. Kidd and Dewsbury Hall, exactly. James Gunn is a very good player, yeah. Underrated, I'd say. He had to play right back last week in that kind of shuffle because of their misplayers.

59:04Yeah, maybe it was a bit more of a backs to the wall. We've not got our leading XI and maybe that sort of fuelled the performance last week. But to answer your question, I don't think they would necessarily pull Chelsea apart in the way that teams have, PSG and Newcastle have in recent games. But they've still got enough going forward to be a threat. OK. And it's a good weekend in the sense that, apart from West Ham at home, in theory, that's a good fixture. But the context means, I think that is probably quite a tricky one. But all of these games are potential ones where those teams are going to drop points.

59:37They're all quite tricky.

59:38Mark Carey: Our league. that's our league for you the other games this weekend Sunday at 12 as mentioned the time we're Derby and Saturday you've got one game at three the Fulham Burnley affair the only match actually this weekend that's not going to be on UK television Fulham who haven't scored in three games now but they are hosting Burnley so seems like a good opportunity to change that and Leeds hosting Brentford Saturday at 8 o 'clock Leeds by now looking reasonably safe. They are actually no, three points clear of the drop. Wow. A look at the table tells me otherwise. So yeah, they are the team that perhaps people are sleeping on.

1:00:20Mark Carey: In terms of the relegation battle, only three wins in their last 16 Premier League matches. Leeds has felt a bit kind of Bond villain with Bond this season where it's like, just kill him. Like, just get that win and you'll be fine. And they keep, not they keep drawing. It's like, he is still there and the threat of relegation is still there for them despite it feeling like they've been out of it or close to being out of it but they can't quite get that win that would really give them that breathing space. So yeah, I do wonder if they will kind of get as Bond villains tend to do get pulled back in.

1:00:57Isn't it Bond that normally rather than the villain? No, no, it's the villain is the one who's safe. Yeah, yeah. Oh, fine. And it's kind of like he's got Bond there and it's like just kill him. but he can't quite do it. Do you expect me to talk? No, I expect you to... I expect you to die but he doesn't because he gets talked out of it. I expect you to avoid relegation to the EFL Championship. Muse, the henchman. But yeah, I think historically if you look, Leeds are on 32 points and in a lot of recent Premier League seasons that would keep you up. 34, 35 would definitely keep you up. So we've got eight games to go.

1:01:30I think we could be heading for a generational high total here. Wow, that's terrible. in 2003 kind of thing. They got 42. 42 and went down. So, again, good, isn't it? Yeah. Really good relegation battle, really good battle for fifth. It is. The relegation battle is good having won, but having missed one for the last couple of seasons.

1:01:50Mark Carey: As long as your team's not in it. Well. Well, do you expect us to talk? Yes, we will be on Sunday evening. Straight after the Carabay Cup final, we'll be putting some thoughts together on that game. And if you've ever hankered to put some faces to the names, and see how the whole podcast comes together, then just drop by our YouTube channel at the Totally Football Show, thereabouts, at around about 7.30 on Sunday evening, where you can see it's recorded Monday morning's podcast. That's it for today's show, though. So many, many thanks to Charlie, to Duncan, to Mark, to Grayson and producer Charlie in the booth, and also Shabby, who's remote producing this.

1:02:34Mark Carey: I hope he's still listening. anyway that's it from us have a great time listeners speak to you soon

1:02:43you've been listening to the Totally Football Show part of the Athletic FC podcast network for other great podcasts just like this one including the Athletic FC and our dedicated club podcasts search for the Athletic in all the usual places we're also at the Totally Show on Insta and at the Totally Show on YouTube the Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production

1:03:09The Athletic FC.

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