Palace win Conference League - can Arsenal beat PSG in the Champions League?

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1:56The Athletic FC.

2:26Then we talk Gordon to Barcelona and other midweek news. And we look ahead. After Palace win with Mateta, will England's week get even better in Budapest with Arteta? All that and more in this Totally Football show. The refs look at his watch. Is he going to blow the whistle? He has! Book those flights. Book those hotels. Tell word to get lost. Because Palace are going to Leipzig. Mateta making his way into the box here. Watt has been able to bring this a long way. It is to shoot by the crowd. Mateta!

3:05What's the Eagles song? I can see the whistle in the referee's lips. They have done it. It's another trophy for Crystal Palace. Glasner struck gold again. Another incredible day for me and for my family, sharing these moments with my family here at Leipzig again. This is just a fantastic day, so I have to say thank you to the players because they have to do all the job. To share moments like that with your family and your friends, that we're all, again, it's just, these are moments to live with you for the rest of your life. Hello there, welcome to the Tony Football Show. The big clock on the wall, so it's Thursday the 28th of May as we get together on a big week for football and English football.

3:50Jack Lang's here with us. Hey, Jack. Hi, James. Nice to see you. You too. Duncan Alexander's here too. Hello, James. Looking very spiffy, Duncan. Thank you. And so is Colin Millar. Hi, Colin. Hey, James. How are you? Very well, thank you. Colin, give us your stat, your stat about Europa League and Conference League. I give this stat once a week at the moment, but I might have to put it in the fridge, or maybe the freezer, until next February. So the stat is that since the start of the 2024-25 season, which is last year, every time an English club has played a non-English club in a knockout round, so a two-legged tie or a final in the Europa League or a conference, 21 ties.

4:30English clubs have won all 21 ties. So the Premier League middle class is in a pretty good place at the minute, I would say. The latest example, of course, being Palace on Wednesday night. Champions League's a different kind of ratio, though, isn't it? Yeah, the Champions League is a little bit different And I think this is actually a good little barometer of this that was put up by my colleague Chris Weatherspoon last night. He put up the six budgets, so the annual budgets of the six clubs in the Champions League, Europa League and Conference League finals. So PSG's is unsurprisingly the biggest at 450 million per annum.

5:07Arsenal's is 347 million, so a little bit behind. You drop down to the Europa League. Aston Villa's is 270 million, which is just over five times the size of Freiburg's budget who were there putting in that final. And in the Conference League, Crystal Palace is 148 million. You compare that to Rio Vallecano at just 30 million which is quite a significant difference. Rio Vallecano, a club so small that they can only let one person in their shop at a time, I read. Huh. Well, just how many trophies our English team's going to win this summer exactly? That's a question we may be touching on a little bit later on.

5:45Colin, of course, this is a busy week for you, not just updating your stats, but also possibly appearing in an InterTotally Cup semifinal, depending on how the quarterfinals went. If you haven't seen them yet, they're out there. Duncan, you may or may not be involved as well because you're in the quarterfinals too. That mega quarterfinal collection is available as a totally extra for you now. We'll have the semifinals for your delectation on Saturday. Oh, and speaking of Saturday, That evening we're going to be, straight after the Champions League final, Paris Saint-Germain against Arsenal, doing a live stream.

6:20So join us, if you fancy that. Today though, we're going to begin with Wednesday night's final in the Conference League. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. ... gathered on the left and now Palace finds space the other side of the field. Wharton brings it forward, drives it low, palm away. Mateta is onside, side foots it home. The Palace fans around us go absolutely wild. Mateta goes racing off to celebrate. And there's a man with the flying kick, the trademark celebration, as he takes down the corner flag. Jean-Philippe Mateta there, scoring the goal, which won Crystal Palace their first ever European trophy in their first ever European campaign.

7:06What a remarkable year. What a remarkable six months it's been. for this club slightly unremarkable game we'll get on to some proper celebrations in a second or two but slightly unremarkable game i say that it was the first major european final in 16 years not to have an actual shot on target in the first half of the match yeah it was you could tell both teams started the game going oh we're in a european final for the first time this is weird um and both looked pretty nervous there was a lot of a lot of turnovers palace had more of the board but I think there was a moment about half an hour in where Oliver Glasner called Adam Wharton over to him and he didn't whisper in his ear, he just said something in his ear.

7:44And from then on, Wharton just grew in influence and confidence. And yeah, and from then on, I mean, Glasner referenced after the game, but the 15 minutes after halftime was when Palace just came out and went, we're really good. And they should have probably scored two or three. Yeah. And we've added another Zenith Data Systems Conference League to Premier League role calls. Magnificent. Wharton, who apparently had spent days with his foot in a bucket of ice to get the swelling down, possibly he'd refreshed the few cubes at half-time in order to have the shot, which then brought the rebound, which Matete was so quick to leap on, Colin.

8:23Yeah, James, the Wharton point's really interesting because for the first 20 or 30 minutes, he didn't really look like he was much fit. He looked like he was going through the motions a bit and maybe he'd been rushed back into the team, but he just grew an influence. and I think when you have a player of his quality on the ball it's very obvious what that brings to the game and I started looking at a lot of the feedback from Spanish journalists and reporters and they were raving about Adam Morton just being like he's the best player on the pitch which he absolutely was and I think it's easy to compare this to the Villa-Friberg-Grupa League final the week before where it was quite one-sided but I actually thought Rayo Vallecano were very competitive in this match I think the game could have got away from them certainly after they conceded that Mateta goal but they stayed in it and I think had they had a little bit more quality in the final third, the last sort of 15 minutes could have become very interesting.

9:08But this was a game between two teams who, as Duncan alluded to it there, they haven't been in too many finals. A lot of those players, Rai Valkan have never been in any final before last night. Any competition domestically, never reached a final. Never, never in a major final. Never won a major trophy. So this was probably the biggest night in their history. And I think they made a good representation of themselves. This is a club we just don't really have any money at all to speak of. So the fact that they were in a final in the first place was a major achievement. I also thought that in terms of not just the game, but the atmosphere between the two sets of fans was amazing, I thought.

9:43Right. Okay. Well, tell you what, let's find out a little bit more about the atmosphere because joining us now from the sunny streets of Leipzig is Ruben Pinder of The Athletic and TIFO. Hi, Ruben. How are you? I'm okay, thank you. Pretty good. Have you caught a cold or something? Excuse the croaky voice. Right. Is it a viral thing? Well, plenty is going viral at the moment, including Adam Morton's mum with the Crystal Palace fans. Nice. I think we're all suffering from joy today, which is, yeah, just the best time to be a Palace fan. Excellent. Excellent. You've been through some highs and lows this last six months, five months even.

10:24But what a year this is proving to be for Crystal Palace, the FA Cup, the Community Shield. and now this European trophy. What does it feel like to have a European title as you sit there in the Leipzig sunshine? That's quite surreal, really. Like you say, a few months ago, it really didn't feel like the season was going to end very well, with Mateta and Glasner kind of not particularly popular in January when Mateta looked like he was off, and Glasner said that he was leaving. But yeah, it's all turned out quite well. And, you know, none of us can really quite believe it. It's one of those where in the moment it's amazing, but it's all going to kind of sink in today, I think, when we take in videos and photos from last night.

11:15What was the atmosphere like? Colin was just mentioning that it seemed to be a pretty special meeting of two different fan cultures. Yeah, I mean, the atmosphere was amazing in the ground. Both sets of fans had some impressive displays. The noise was obviously spectacular. And yeah, both sets of fans really just, you know, feeling surreal. Like neither of us expected to be there. Rio, obviously, it was their first final ever. It was our first time playing in Europe. And now we get to do it all over again. And you know what? You're going to be in the Europa League this time. And I'm guessing no one can take it away from you.

12:01Does it feel a little bit like justice after all the frustration and bitterness of last summer? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I'm not sure if you saw the official club account tweet. In the end, we always win in a not so subtle dig to Maranakis. So, yeah, it's kind of the best of a bad situation, right? We got demoted to the Conference League, won it, and now we get our rightful place in the Europa League. So, yeah, we'll be digging into the savings again for another European tour. Well, you're on the staircase of glory, aren't you, really? Because you can then win the Europa League, then get into the Champions League, win that, get into the Club World Cup, just carry on.

12:40Well, exactly, yeah. Where is the Champions League final in 2028? Maybe we should book our hotels now. I think it's at Settlerhurst Park. But can you, talking of Twitter, Can you condemn Crystal Palace Football Club for tweeting Crystal Palace Champions of Europe? No, because I was singing it as well. Yeah, it's a weird one, isn't it? With the invention of a third-tier European competition. Because we're not champions of Europe. We are European champions. So, yeah. Very nice. Mateta with the goal. Wharton with perhaps the biggest part to play. Colin was just saying that he had Spanish journalists who know their skillful midfielders praising Wharton, gushing about him.

13:23How did you feel? Yeah, I saw Seb Stasdard-Blood tweeting that German broadcasters were quite taken with him as well. I mean, we know how Wharton is. We've been singing his praises for a long time. You know, I've mentioned him to you quite a lot. he's just an unbelievably good, calm midfielder with the progressive passing and the speed of thought that he has was so important, especially in the first half we knew Rayo were going to press quite intensely and so having him was really, really important and yeah, it was one of his best performances I mean, both times at Wembley last season he really stepped up and played brilliantly as well so it just reinforces how cringy it was for Tuchel to leave him out of the England squad.

14:10All of that, plus he was injured. He came off with a knock against Arsenal on the final day of the season. But I think, as he said in his post-match process, he wasn't going to miss a final with a swollen ankle. And now he's got all summer to recover. But yeah, just an incredible player. And if that's the last we see of him, then it's been just an amazing two and a half years of glorious midfield play from that band. Yeah. All right. Well, in the meantime, best night of the best year of the best football club in South Norwood history. So congratulations, Ruben. Enjoy. Thank you very much, guys.

14:48Pleasure. Ruben Pinder. Interesting times ahead. As much as this has been a fantastic year, they've got an interesting summer ahead of them, haven't they, Palace?

14:57James Richardson: Yeah, I think so. I think if they keep the core of the squad, there's a lot to build on there. They've got a lot of players who are young and will improve. I think even looking at last night's game, they played well for that 20-minute spurt, but really some of their key players weren't on it. You know, Mateta didn't have an amazing game. Ismael Lassar, who's really been the star of this campaign, I thought had a really anonymous game. So you think about what they could have done if everyone clicks. And yeah, there's plenty to be excited about. We know that there will be someone new in the dugout talk of Andoni Araiola which would be I think for them an amazing change in the dugout.

15:43James Richardson: Glasner's done a fantastic job and I think Araiola is probably even better and that you know whichever way that goes whether it's him or someone else bright times ahead. I've got a lot of Palace supporting friends I live in South London and honestly watching it makes me feel a little tinge of jealousy because it's a it's a really lovely club uh it's a very whenever i've been it's such a nice family atmosphere they do great community work um we saw last night they had the name of their foundation on their shirts um you know if you've lived in south london for any amount of time you will have probably been in contact with what the club does in some on some level and yeah i'm just i'm happy that they've had this moment and And here's to more hungover nights in random European cities for all of them.

16:33And more English clubs in Europe next season, up to nine with this success. Wow. Really, to Colin's point earlier about the stat, you know, the English teams dominating knockout ties in the Europa League and Conference League. We've now got an eclectic mix, I would say, of Palace, Bournemouth and Sunderland in the Europa League. and then obviously Brighton hoping to take that Conference League trophy down the A23 through three bridges. Palace have had so much turbulence already. They've lost Marquette, they lost Debra Ritchie, they lost Michael Alissier before that and obviously Oliver Glasner moving on but what a legacy.

17:10I think more than anything he's probably just changed their mentality to see why can we not win cup competitions. And I think if you're any Premier League club, certainly outside of teams who are maybe challenging for the league title, you kind of think, you know, this is what is now possible for us. You mentioned Sunderland and Brighton and Bournemouth all being in European competition next year. And why can they not be looking at carrying on this sort of wedding run of English clubs? Indeed. A lesson that Macclesfield took to their hearts, of course, when they met Palace earlier in the season.

17:41Sign of the times in the Premier League is that Palace have 10 players heading off for World Cup duty, including members of the Spain, France, Argentina and England squad. In fact, in terms of the Premier League, only three clubs, Man City, Arsenal and Villa, have more players who are going to be represented at the World Cup, or at least in World Cup squads, which is remarkable. The Ioneola links with Milan. Glasner has also been mentioned in connection with a move to that northern Italian city. Anyway, well done to Crystal Palace. Got loads more to talk about today. The Anthony Gordon to Barcelona story.

18:21And of course, I look forward to Paris Saint-Germain Arsenal. Let's get on to that transfer talk next.

18:31This episode of the Totally Football Show is brought to you by Hotels.com. When you book in a hotel, here's a simple question. Why wouldn't you use Hotels.com? It really is all in the name. As a member, you save up to 20 % on hundreds of thousands of hotels around the world and earn rewards on every single stay, which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. And unlike some other places, there are no blackout dates, so when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So whether you're following your team across North America this summer, or planning a well-earned escape to make up for being glued to the football for weeks on end, make sure you book on thehotels.com and start earning rewards.

19:10because when it comes to hotels, it's simple. Hotels.com. It's all in the name.

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20:37This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli Kaye and the very best football writers around. Es lo colpo del verano. E Anthony Gordon para Barcelona. It's possibly how the Catalan capital awoke. on Wednesday morning, to the shock reports that Barcelona had splashed, spunked, the verb of your choosing, €80 million on want-away winger Anthony Gordon. Who, what, why? Let's get some answers. First of all, Jack, does this make any sense for Barcelona?

21:23James Richardson: I think on the face of it, you read the headline, you think, wow, that's a bit odd. But I think he's a good player. I think Gordon's a good player I think he's he's not quite being why do you think it's odd when you read the headline because he hasn't been playing brilliantly for Newcastle for the last six months started the season well was good in the Champions League has gone off the boil a bit and he's I don't know I think he's a very clever player I think he's possibly that may be his biggest asset like people expect wingers to be all you know tricks and he wins fouls he wins fouls i think his his positional sense is good i think he makes clever runs i think he uh his pressing is good yeah unbelievably and i think he he's got that nice knack of knowing where the defender wouldn't want him to be okay so like even though he's not you know he's not got searing pace and he's not an unbelievable trickster he's kind of got that just like nagging constant threat which i think is good is it 80 million good i mean this is why i think the okay the headline makes me uh makes my eyes that works really translate on audio but is it too simplistic to read this as essentially barcelona going we're going to upgrade from marcus rashford russia's been good but we think gordon's going to be better i think the way the way of looking at this is that uh rafinha who'd been so fantastic for barcelona and is uh in the season before this one but he's constantly available whereas this time around he'd had quite a lot of sort of niggling injury setbacks and they had to rotate an attack and that was quite often Marcus Rashford or Ferran Torres but we're talking about Anthony Gordon's pressing and everything you whenever we speak about Barcelona tactically it's all conditioned by playing such a high defensive line which allows their attacking players to swarm all over the defense and kind of overwhelm them in sort of 20-25 minute patches that's where I think Anthony Gordon fits into this team.

23:23Marcus Rashford is a separate issue and we know that Barcelona do have an option to sign him permanently for 30 million euros which is significantly cheaper than the fee for Gordon. Now that option will expire on the 15th of June. Although the wages involved are so astronomical for Rashford that I think the view certainly it's been reported that it works out as more or less the same money. Yes that yeah yeah it would even out in terms of wages and fees and also talking about Gordon being so great off the ball, whereas Marcus Rashford, probably his skills would focus more on what he can do with the ball.

23:59And Anthony Gordon scored 10 goals in the Champions League this season. So maybe that sort of different style of football whereby that intensity that he brings can have more of an impact. 10 is a great number. Only Mbappe and Kane scored more, although those numbers were heavily bolstered by the fact that he was able to take on Carabag and Union Saint-Gilois. That's true. I mean, to Jack's point about him, being a clever player i think he's he's quite intelligent as a man as well i mean when he speaks he he kind of thinks about football in a in a more um considered way than a lot of players and i think the fact that he seemingly was set on a move abroad this summer is quite interesting i think he feels like he's got his career path set out and i do think people are kind of they're too quick to sort of go oh this player had a middling premier league season there's no way a big club could sign them like look at luis diaz last season obviously brilliant this season but there's been a lot of revisionism i don't remember many people last summer saying i can't believe liverpool let luis diaz go to bayon more people were like why do bayon want him they've already got a lease say so do you know i mean it's like i can see a world where anti gordon absolutely tears up la liga okay cool i don't want to make your eyes do that again jack but how are barcelona

25:10James Richardson: going to pay for this uh i don't know i've i've read so many pieces about barcelona's levers over the last five years and it's all just blurred together a bit i've got no idea but good luck to them okay does it mean and we obviously don't know the answer to this either but a logical take would be that they are therefore not going to be in for julian alvarez who did seem their big target and gordon for example had long been wounded to be heading for bayern yeah julian Alvarez would cost a significant amount of money. Atletico Madrid are in a strong financial position over him, but I think Barcelona want to do that deal.

25:43They want to get that done as well. They've lost Robert Nevandowski and the wage packet that he would have been on. They've won the league again. They're back in Camp Nou, so their matchday revenue has gone up quite a lot. I mean, as Jack said, I don't think anyone really knows how their financial situation plays out. I thought they promised us some mysterious Skybox owners. It's tricky to keep track of Barcelona is comings and goings. But they obviously are confident that they can get this done. And it is probably worth mentioning that it does have their sort of player registration system whereby they have to have proof of finances for wages and fees and so on before they can register any of these signings in any case.

26:23So there's a lot of administration work would go into that. We've seen this before where they have signed players, but weren't actually able to use them until months into the season. Well, we'll follow that story with interest, but best of luck to Gordon. It's going to be exciting, as you say, Duncan. to see how he gets on. Other exciting and perhaps surprising news this week included Nuno Espirito Santo staying at West Ham. Mood at the weekend following the Hammers' relegation and Nuno's press conference seemed to be that he was on his way, but he's sticking around. He's been in the championship before, of course, with Wolves.

26:59Yes, a surprise, I think. I mean, anyone who read Rashane Thomas' excellent inside read of the calamitous season that West Ham had. I think that was the big surprise of that was just, I think everyone thought Nuno had gone in and raised everyone's spirits, but actually everyone was probably even gloomy than they were under Graham Potter. So I'm not sure how that will affect certain senior players who might have hung around to get them back up. Maybe might not now.

27:27James Richardson: They're not going to get promoted as an act of, you know, human charisma with Nuno. He's like, he's a good manager. he's not someone who's going to kind of coax something new out of the dressing room he's quite dour and like Duncan said sometimes there's a reason why clubs start afresh when they go down and yeah I wonder if that will that will prove to be a to be a misstep I would guess without any knowledge of his links with George Mendes and the fact that West Ham are going to be selling quite a lot of their stock players this summer I would imagine and they will need a high turnover of players that that sort of link might come in quite useful for them over the coming months.

28:11But yeah, Nuno is probably quite a notoriously difficult character to get along with, I think, for a lot of players. But he's clearly a very good coach. And if he's done it with Wills before, I think he could probably replicate that with West Ham next year. Well, interesting time for West Ham. OK, next up, this show's going to continue its editorial journey around a kind of notional south circular road from Serhose Park via the London Stadium. We now head to north London and Arsenal, but they're not there because they've already headed off to Budapest. Let's talk about what awaits them Saturday night, or afternoon actually, as they take on Paris Saint-Germain next.

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31:51against Arsenal. First of all, this is Saturday tea time. That caught me by surprise. Yeah? Yeah. It wasn't last year, was it? No, it was 8 o 'clock. Proper time. Yeah. Well, I think it's good. Is it because Budapest further east? Uh, no. Oh. Because they had famously the Champions League final in Moscow when United played Chelsea. Oh, yeah. Locally finished well into the next day. But was that that one? I think it's just to make it more palatable for match-going fans. and I guess it sort of helps both the Asian and US markets. Right, but mostly help the match-going fans, yeah. Yeah, which is what UEFA are all about.

32:30So, yeah. But I think my theory is that Champions League day, Saturday, since they moved, it has become what certain generation bemoan FA Cup final used to be and no longer is. Like, it's a whole day, everyone's excited. What will you be doing? be enjoying the build-up to okay yeah very good victory for Arsenal would seal the greatest season in the club's history it's probably fair to say if Paris Saint-Germain can triumph they will join an elite group of teams who won back-to-back European titles it is the first ever major European final between a team from France and a team from England that's surprising isn't it Jack yeah I suppose it is I mean for me I'm surprised by it also first ever European Cup final to feature two Spanish managers.

33:21That is, again, who'd have thought? Who'd have thought? So my question is, who's going to win? Colin? Well, I mean, I'm really interested to see how it's going to pan out because I think PSG are the best team in football at the minute, probably have been for the past 12 months. And I was always thinking, with Arsenal, who would Arsenal rather have had? would they rather have had this PSG team or the Bayern Munich team who PSG defeated in the semi-final? I think they probably would rather have had Bayern. And the reason I think that is I think PSG can adapt between different games a lot better than Bayern.

33:58I think Bayern are much more, sort of, it's all about their attack and all about how much damage they can do to the opposition. Whereas I think you look at PSG and they can adapt a lot more. I think they did that at the semi-final stage last year against Arsenal. They conceded one goal over the two legs. They actually did have more chances to score, But PSG didn't concede a goal over two legs against Liverpool. Again, they went to Bayern in that second leg after the 5-4. And once they went 1-0 up, they were capable of defending. So I think in this match, what PSG will probably try to do is to take an early lead.

34:30But I think they're then happy to then have that as a sort of game state. And they don't need to go looking for more. Right, we saw that defensive acumen in the second leg against Bayern Munich of this year's competition. You mentioned the clash last year between Paris Saint-Germain and Arsenal, which went very much in PSG's favour, 3-1 on aggregate. But as you equally mentioned, Arsenal, I think, were way ahead on XG in that clash. And the difference was Gigi Donnarumma's miraculous saves. Now, just to kind of finish off my point, the two teams, when you look at them compared to last season, Arsenal have reinforced, perhaps improved themselves quite significantly.

35:08Paris Saint-Germain, you can make a case that they're actually worse off because of the changing goal. yeah and to colin's point i think um in the first leg in london psg scored early which really affected that game the second leg uh in paris obviously so it works um arsenal were great for the first or 50 minutes really i mean you know don't take many long throws arsenal but they did actually pepper and donnarumma does the one thing he does struggle on is is sort of crosses and high balls and and they if i think if they'd have scored in in that period they could have easily turn that around and let's not forget Villa had PSG on the rack in the second leg at Villa Park in that run as well so that I don't think PSG are um you know perfect right but as Colin said I think the game state is the big thing I think if you have to chase the game against them you are sort of screwed because they're so quick on the counter um so yeah it is it's fascinating because there's no better out of possession team in the world than Arsenal there's no better in possession team in well than PSG.

36:09They both kind of know what they've got to do. Let's see who's slightly better than the other one at doing it. I think it's probably set up to be the most tactically interesting Champions League final that I can remember, to be honest. I mean, we've seen some mismatches. We've seen some duds, Liverpool-Spurs particularly. The biggest mismatch I think ever was last season involving Paris Saint-Germain. Yeah, and I think everyone came out of that game a little bit underwhelmed because you don't want a final to be like that you want a final to be memorable and close and you know to to swing one way than the other and that was just like an exhibition game really

36:45James Richardson: what do you think joe i think above all for arsenal the important thing will be to be to be clinical because i don't see them anyone really keeping psg out or being able to build a plan around keeping PSG out because they just, the volume of chances they create, the volume of play they have, the number of talented individuals, the combinations, everything about them is terrifying. And Arsenal will defend well against that, but they cannot bank on a clean sheet against this team. So then it will be important for Arsenal, I think, they're going to probably have some chances, may not have loads, PSG are decent defensively, but i think the two three decent chances arsenal have they need to score one or two of them to have it to be in the match because i i just don't think this isn't going to end nil nil they're not going to take it to penalties i can't see them you know winning one nil uh i think their best chance is to not go behind as the other guys said like start slow fine nil nil nil at half time is great for them but when they get when they get a chance in the second half they have to take it because I don't think you can cling on for 120 minutes against this team.

38:02James Richardson: I think that's a fool's errand. As Duncan was mentioning, they are the best at doing that. And as dominant as they've been in the Premier League, the Gunners even more so in the Champions League in this regard. They've only conceded six goals in their 14 matches, two of which came in a dead rubber against Kyra. They've only conceded two goals in all their knockout stages games. They've only trailed once in their entire campaign. Sorry Colin, you're shaping to say something Yeah, I think Arsenal's main strength is the defence but it's not letting big chances go against them but I think PSG more than any other team that I can really remember in recent history so many of their goals come from chances that aren't particularly high quality, they come from Favicelli or Dembele cutting in from their flank and letting fly from just outside the box because they're unbelievably accurate and powerful and difficult to stop in those positions so i think that if psg score i wouldn't be surprised if it would be one of those two players with that move inwards and then trying to find the top corner it sometimes takes a little deflection but that is where psg are so dangerous so i so i think that's that's such a big factor for how arsenal try to block those those runs but i'm not sure you can do that well it's and it's also the big um selection headache for arteta isn't it right back i mean you could play hincapier at left back and then calafiore at right back so he's kind of like got his left foot to block when varek skelly comes inside but it's yeah you're right there their kind of conversion rate from difficult xg chances is ridiculous that that buying the 5-4 in paris basically every shot went in um but i do think if you look at um psg in the second leg against bayan they obviously have done a lot of specific stuff for for that game safonov was hitting the ball out of play from goal kicks so that they could swarm around Alise and not give him space, which is an incredible detail.

39:57But that's kind of easy to do against Bayern when you know where the main threat is. I mean, probably Alise came to a similar extent. I think with Arsenal, they're kind of helped maybe by the fact they've got so many kind of seven, eight out of ten players. It's like, yeah, you can target Saka, but then... But I mean, Louis Stier is as well for Bayern. Yeah, but I just think, I don't know, I just feel like Arsenal are sort of very much the sort of more than the sum of their parts sometimes. That might make that slightly more difficult for PSG to focus on. Havertz with the Champions League final experience.

40:27Jokeres who had his best performance for Arsenal in the semi-final. People identifying the right back as a selection question for both managers, who it's going to be for Arsenal. Hakimi, I think, is he definitely ruled out at the final? No.

40:42James Richardson: Both he and Dembele have trained Tuesday, Wednesday, full team training and are expected to do so on today on Thursday so but they did fine with that and with Zaya Emery yeah I don't think it's a big deal obviously Dembele is a bigger issue for them but it the French media is pointing towards them both starting at the moment okay whereas for Arsenal whoever's going to be up against Kvarackeli is possibly a key factor as well as who starts up front what do you think? I think Havertz has been underwhelming since he came back and I think the fact that I think he might start Gokerez just because Gokerez has been much more effective in Europe.

41:21I mean his performance in the second leg against Atletico was his most impressive display for the club so far. He really bullied them and I think that would give Arsenal a base to sort of build with the players behind him on in the game. You see Arsenal edging this Duncan, yeah? No, I think PSG start as favourites but I do think that no two men have thought about something as much as Luis Enrique and Mikel Ateza have about this game this week. I mean, I would love to see a full oral history breakdown of their thoughts this week, because it must just be next level. So I'm just really interested to see what they come up with.

42:01You know, Q, a very dour nil-nil, but I do think it has potential to be one of the... I mean, you know, it's rare you get teams coming into this who, they are probably the two best teams in Europe, if not the world. Both freshly crowned champions as well. Yeah, exactly.

42:18James Richardson: Great bit of fence sitting from you there. How much for the fact that they're on this massive high from winning the title last weekend, how much is that going to, or the weekend before, sorry, but still on a massive high? Don't know, I can see it both ways. I can see it being post-adrenaline lack of, I don't think Arteta would ever let this happen, but you could imagine a club winning their big thing and then this being an afterthought. I don't think that would be the case, but similarly, I don't see it as a massive boost to them, no. They were always depicted as being a club that suffered from anxiety, this whole taunting them with bottles and and all that thing to get that to clear that up to prove prove themselves i think it must be very liberating for them i think i think that is actually quite significant and we covered crystal palace earlier and i think that fa cup win last year changed their their thought process obviously they won the community shield at the start of season but you get you get used to winning trophies right and players get used to to rising to raising themselves for these for these matches one thing though that i think might be even more significant than that that goes the other way is the minutes played between these two sets of players this season so in terms of the league minutes the expected 11s arsenals is over 23 000 minutes combined for that 11 uh psg are 16 and a half thousand so that is quite a significant difference now liga has four fewer league fixtures but psg's position of relative dominance allows them to rotate a lot more as well a couple of those players have had spells out injured and come back into the team obviously PSG don't have a league cup to contend with anymore because France binned that off what five or six years ago now so their players will be fresher and I think that was a big part of last year's final against Inter was that PSG just had so much more energy the entire match whereas Inter's players kind of looked kind of looked like they were at the end of a very long and difficult season I don't really know if that will be the case with Arsenal to that contrast but PSG are going to have a lot of of energy and I think if this does even go to extra time that might then become even more of a factor possibly although Connor O 'Neill at the Athletic did a piece looking at that it's out today it's really good some some amazing viz in it and he points out that a obviously Arsenal rested most of the team last weekend but also in 13 of the last 20 finals they're starting 11 with more minutes in their legs have gone on to win so Is that right?

44:5013 as a last? 20. So it's not like a massive, but it sort of shows that it isn't necessarily as big a factor as people might think. All right, then. The sheer passion of the occasion can give you an extra 3%, unless you play for Inter. Jack, who's going to win? PSG. Colin? PSG. Duncan? The loophole that is a penalty shootout that can go on forever. Well, if those two are going PSG, I'll pick Arsenal. Why not? Right. Yeah. Okay. We'll see what happens. Win the dog, if nothing else. Hmm? They have a dog called Wynn at the training ground. Do they really? They do. As of when? About two or three years ago, I think.

45:31Okay. It was brought in as a sort of uplifting device by Arteta. The players pat it and it runs around. But obviously, people used to point out that it was called Wynn and Arsenal hadn't won a trophy, but now they have. So now, you know, when the dog's got four legs. Right. The Champions League final is over one leg. Let's see what happens. Right. I'm glad it's that way around. Yeah. Good. All right. Well, we will see what happens. And then, as I mentioned, we're going to be here on Saturday evening. Daniel Story is going to be with us. Also, Tom Williams and Adrian Clarke as well. Only if they win.

46:07Yeah. Only if they win. Otherwise, no. That's why I'm on standby for that show. indeed well thank you for being here today Colin we're going to be seeing you next week in our World Cup previews oh yes yes I'll be here Jack you're heading off very soon to Mexico si senor woof and well no doubt we're going to be speaking to you maybe before but certainly in the course of this summer's tournament when Duncan you're going to be joining team totally poolside in Los Angeles so excited about that excellent that's it for today's show many thanks for being with us. We're back Saturday. See you then.

46:46You've been listening to The Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. For other great podcasts just like this one, including The Athletic FC and our dedicated club podcasts, search for The Athletic in all the usual places. We're also at The Totally Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

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