The best France team ever? Plus England will see DR Congo now

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1:48And soccer fans, Boss has you covered too. Whether you want to look and feel as sharp as your heroes in Boss Performance, or show your pride from the stands in jerseys, polos and jackets in national colours and badges. Own the moment with confidence. Discover the Boss Performance Collection as worn by the US Men's National Soccer Team and the fan capsule of jerseys, polos and jackets in national colours. Wear your passion your way and be your own boss at boss.com or at your nearest Boss store. From Los Angeles, it's totally at the World Cup. While much of the world has been asleep, day 20 of this tournament has just concluded.

2:27Here's what's happened.

2:33Liberté, égalité, Mbappé. France advance. Are we looking at Deschamps? While they smash Sweden, could Ivory Coast beat Norway? No way. The Vikings progress to the last 16, as do Mexico, who await England next Sunday if Tommy's team can do the Congo on Wednesday. What have we got? Tuesday evening in LA. I'm guessing Wednesday morning or thereafter for you somewhere else in the world. And it's Tom Williams and Phil Hay here on the sofa. Good evening. Hello. Hello to you both. Also, we'll be hearing tonight from Martin Sleepness, top Norway fan and podcaster of the Inkel Severing podcast. and our friend Mahir Mazzahi who's going to tell us all about DR Congo ahead of Wednesday's big clash with England so much Phil to talk about today we saw France, scary we saw Mexico at the Azteca also, scary what impressed you?

3:36Oh France definitely, yeah no absolutely I've been trying hard today to pick fault with France and I almost can't, I think the only thing I can pick fault with is the height of Jean-Philippe Mateta's shorts. I think he seriously needs to reconsider them. But that aside, they look absolutely complete in every area. I hadn't clocked the height of his shorts. They're rather high. Really? Belly button high. Oh, yeah. Check it out. Yeah. Well, it works. It does. It works for him. What's in France? Well, pick holes in France. That's something I think a lot of people are going to be trying to do. what we all need really is a full-on curtains drawn on the team bus 2010 style meltdown from these blurs could be the only thing that derails them because currently they look look pretty unstoppable i mean you're never that far away from some kind of spectacular derailment they look so harmoniously they they do yeah i mean i think everything is looking pretty positive at the moment although although i was talking about mexico just before we we started and the question was about the opposition they've had.

4:39France looked in periods today against Sweden, but this is the same Sweden side that got done 5-1 by Netherlands. And where are the Netherlands now, Tom? Where are they? Yeah, and I think what we saw from Sweden today were a lot of the same failings that we saw in that game against the Netherlands. They do have this way of playing that is quite open. We know they've got these fantastic attacking players and they look to hit them as much as possible. But particularly in the second half, when the game was getting away from them, They seemed to get even more open, you know, rather than just kind of trying to batten down the hatches a bit.

5:11So that obviously played into France's hands as well. Yeah. France looked pretty good, though. Let's just check on the results on this day 20, we think, of this tournament. They started with Norway beating Ivory Coast 2-1. Erling Haaland with the late goal there. Norway will now face the last 16 clash with Brazil this coming weekend. And France, meanwhile, 3-0 winners over Sweden. They will now take on Paraguay in the last 16. And Tuesday evening, Mexico at the Azteca, 2-0 winners over Ecuador. Mexico still yet to concede a goal at this tournament. The first team to go their first four matches without conceding at a World Cup since?

5:53I don't know. Pass. You always hit me with these stats and I never know. I'm so sorry. And I never know. Italy at Italia 90. Of course. They used to come to World Cups that side. Yeah. Man, Italy at World Cups, that takes me back. Treasured childhood memory. Ask your parents. Anyway, yeah, I mean, France were amazing. There were lots of other good bits. The goals in the Ivory Coast-Norway match were extraordinary too. Phil, well, actually, Tom, what was your moment of the day? Well, as has previously been established during moment of the day chat, I love a Michael Alisse through ball almost as much as I love a cheeky nutmeg.

6:29And today, in the France-Sweden game, we got both because when Alise teed up Brady Bacola for France's second goal... He petit-ponted. Did so by petit-ponting Gustav Lagerbjelke, the Swedish centre-back. Again, classic Alise, perfect weight on it. Spotted the run and Bacola run through, takes a touch and thumps home. And then Alise added another assist for good measure a few minutes later. He's now got five for this tournament. Only one player in football history has ever had more than five at a World Cup. Phil? Go on. It's him. Oh, the man himself. It's the man himself. Well, it would be. I mean, every time they attacked, it looked like it was going to be goal of the tournament.

7:12There was that ridiculous overhead kick from him. I thought Sweden were a bit weird today. It was almost as if at 2-0 there was a kind of, oh well, attitude from him. There didn't seem to be any change to what they were doing. and I know if they'd cut loose against France, they'd have probably ended up conceding five or six, but they were going out and it felt like it was just sort of, you know, trundled to full time from an hour onwards. But Alisson was amazing. Mbappe was amazing. It comes to you from all angles of France. That's the problem. Yeah, and they have Douay, they have Ryan Scherke, they have so many other options.

7:43I wasn't very clear. The answer to the question was Pelé. Oh, Pelé, right. Sorry, I thought you meant Alisson. No, no, no, no. Not yet, but give it time. He's going there like Mbappe after records. He's got Paraguay next. You wouldn't rule it out. What was your moment of the day, Phil? It was definitely Haaland's goal against Ivory Coast. And not because it was Haaland that scored it, but because it was Haaland who almost missed it. I had a look. And just as a nod to Duncan Alexander, who loves his stats, it was an XG of 0.8, which is pretty much unmissable and absolutely unmissable for Haaland.

8:16But he did this little thing with his face when he first hit it, as if to say, I might have just missed that. And I think if he'd put it closer to the keeper, it would have been the worst chance he'd ever not converted. So even he was bundling that in. But big goal. Big goal. Not sure if you can hear any fireworks popping off in the background here in Los Angeles. The Mexicans are rocking. But these, I think, are in salute of the 2-0 win this evening. Some distance from here at the Azteca, but a big Mexican community, of course, around these parts. So let's start off tonight with the game that has just concluded.

8:49You may well have missed it because it happened in the middle of the night. for much of the world. Mexico 2, Ecuador 0.

9:00Mexico's clash with Ecuador in the last 32 was the late game on Tuesday and it was even later than anticipated because thunderstorms in the Mexico City area delayed kick-off by an hour. When they did kick off, there were heavy showers, Phil, heavy showers of beer at the Azteca. Oof, a strong first-half performance. You made a very good point, which is that if England get through to the Azteca it's going to be the beer derby, isn't it? Or the beer throwing derby. Between them. They were really good for Mexico at the same time as Ecuador. Ecuador had been such a letdown at this tournament and I think two things I saw with them tonight.

9:36Firstly, and I don't think I'm telling anybody anything they don't know here that any Valencia up front is just a massive hindrance for them. It doesn't make them function at all and they didn't. But also as the game went on the sort of big game temperament just wasn't there. They were a complete embarrassment towards the end, especially in Cappie with that red card. And he'd been taken to the cleaners in the first half. His side of the pitch was a massive problem for Ecuador. But Mexico, they were right into that game. They properly invested in it. Both goals were great, but I loved him in his finish, the way he opened his body, slotted in the top corner.

10:10Beautiful. Ecuador did come into this as one of the more fated defences in world football. but they'd only conceded two in the tournament so far. But Julian Quinones opened them up first of all for Mexico. We were all shouting pass, pass, but he didn't, Tom, did he? He didn't. I mean, yeah, Mexico flew out of the blocks, could have scored a couple of goals in the first 15 minutes, ended up making the breakthrough halfway through the first half. Ball over the top from Roberto Alvarado, is now up to three assists for the tournament. Quinones runs onto it, cuts inside, and has players up in support, players on the edge of the box.

10:48You think he has to pass it. And instead, he just bullets one into the top left corner. And then within 10 minutes, it was 2-0. Shaky clearance from Joel Ordonez in the Ecuador defence. And this time, it was Quindones who teed up Jimenez for, again, beautiful strike, as Phil said, into the top right-hand corner. And Ecuador just didn't really have any response. And even in the second half, Mexico came closer to adding a third than Ecuador did to getting on the score sheet. And then the night ended with that Pretty embarrassing sending off old Piero Hincaping. Now we'd seen a player already, Miguel Almiron, receive a red card for covering his mouth while in a confrontational situation.

11:27I think that's the terminology for this new offence. Drew Bellingham had done it, but in a non-confrontational. Right. So that was okay. I guess you have to read how furrowed the brow is on the player who's covering his mouth. Furrowed brow, you need to have a look. And if he's kind of looking friendly, it's fine. I might be wrong here and he might correct me but I think Incafi did that deliberately it looked like he did that so blatantly and flagrantly that it was always always going to be picked up because he wants to miss the first game of whatever qualifications he's doing next or because he just completely lost his head and he thought I'm not bothered at this stage this player needs to be insulted so badly how are the consequences I'm just going to do it because it was totally brainless it was everybody saw Almiron might have claimed to have not known about the new regulation, but the amount of fuss over the Almiron sending off meant that there's no way Hincapier, you feel, could have been unaware.

12:22Mexico with an Azteca that Jack Lang, who was there for the Athletic, described as possibly the best atmosphere he has ever witnessed at a stadium. I've seen a few. He has. And also Moura was really good tonight. He was a bit in and out of the game, but the bits where he played well, he was terrific. So Gilberto Moura, who's 17 years of age, getting his first start, I think, for Mexico tonight? I think he started the previous game, didn't he? He had, OK. And he came super close to opening up the scoring with a spectacular strike very early on in the game. Any other thoughts about his performance?

12:55Yeah, he was great. I mean, in that very impressive opening that Mexico made, he was everywhere. So they almost scored a beautiful goal in the seventh minute. And it was a pass from Moura down the right wing for Luis Romo, one of the other central midfielders, puts in this lovely cross to the back post Jimenez throws himself at it heads it wide moments later Moura picks the ball up on the left hand side cuts inside and and you know curls a shot inches wide at the far post and something that sticks out a lot watching Mexico is how mobile that midfield is they play with a midfield three with Eric Lira as the number six but Moura who was playing to his right and Romo who was playing to his left were all over the pitch the The full-backs both attack.

13:37The wide players, Alvarado and Quindones, both come into the middle. There's an awful lot going on, a lot of mobility. And if England do get through to the last 16, you've got to factor in the altitude as well in Mexico City. So, yeah, tough, tough opposition. What do you think? If England get through, they have the game against DR Congo tomorrow, but it will be an appointment next Sunday at the Azteca. That atmosphere, that buzz around Mexico's only going to build in the week to come following tonight's performance. Yeah, so in Mexico's favour, you've got the atmosphere in the crowd and you've got a good bit of form for them and actually some really good players in the team.

14:13I think pound for pound, England's team will be better than Mexico's. But the altitude is the thing that really interests me. They were talking about it tonight and saying the two ways to approach it. One is to go really early, which you can't do because you're elsewhere in the country and you've got games that aren't in Mexico, so it's hard to acclimatise. Or apparently you go at the very last minute. Which is what Ecuador did. Yeah, it didn't seem to work for them at all. But you were saying you'd been to Mexico City. I mean, I think a lot of us have. If you do notice, I mean, it's 2 ,000 metres.

14:40If you've been 2 ,000 metres up, whether it's up a mountain or whatever, you are going to have a noticeable shortness of breath. I mean, a top-level athlete you'd hope would do rather better than, say, me. I think England have the beating of Mexico. You think they do? Yeah, I think Mexico are limited to a certain extent, but I really like watching them, and I particularly like watching them at the Azteca because it does get going. Dan Byrne I think would have to start for England given his experience of living at altitude I mean that's a clear advantage Very much so plus any players with West Brom experience Mexico the one thing clearly there's Congo to come for England and we'll be hearing from Mahir Mazzahi about what kind of opposition they will offer Thomas Tuchel's side a little bit later on in the show but Mexico at least would be a more open opponent for England to play and as such might be a more favourable kind of football match for them to approach.

15:33Yeah, well, I mean, Thomas Tuchel was asked what he expected from DR Congo, and he said, I think it's going to be a copy of what England faced against Ghana and Panama. You won't get that against Mexico. I mean, they are capable of defending robustly, but they do have ballplayers. Haven't conceded a goal yet. But it's simultaneously, on paper at least, a game that would pose more problems for England than the teams they've already faced, but could also play into their hands because there'll theoretically be more space on the pitch for them to play their football in. All right, true. Well, whoever gets through Wednesday's game between England and DR Congo can count themselves lucky about one thing, and that is they're not facing France in the next round.

16:16Let's talk about what France did against Sweden a little bit more next.

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18:16Tuesday at the MetLife New Jersey it was 36 degrees sultry first 44 minutes France were going at Sweden it was kind of comical how charmed the life the Swedish goal was leading but just before half time that all ended when Michael Alise and Kylian Mbappe got their game on yes it was a short corner on France's left wing that Dembele and Alise played to each other, culminates in Dembele playing a pass through to Mbappe, who picks the ball up right on the byline on the left-hand side. And then this incredibly quick blur of feet movement takes him past Victor Jocares. And I had a look back at it, and he basically manages to pull off a step over with his right foot, but then without his foot touching the ground, pushes the ball away from Jocares, then takes another little touch, curls it in the far post.

19:15And you kind of thought, well, Sweden have done well to hold out until here. Mbappe had already hit the post. Alise had hit the post with that incredible overhead kick that Phil mentioned earlier. And Dembele had blazed the rebound wide. And as soon as Mbappe put them in front, France, you thought, well, this is probably it. And so it proved. So it proved. Two more goals would have followed. You're right, that wasn't an Alise assist for that. But he did set up the next two ones. Shortly after halftime, it was Bradley Barcola. Yeah, I think it was Chouameni plays the ball through the middle to Alisse now operating in what has become his preferred territory in his France team.

19:49Plays that lovely ball between the centre-back's legs and Bacola takes a touch and thrashes it home. And then, yeah, about 20 minutes later, again, Alisse in the same kind of position. Very clever run into out from Mbappe and he plays it, Alisse, between the centre-back and full-back. Mbappe takes a touch, curls it in. And yeah, 3-0 could have been more. France looking very ominous indeed. All right. Eventually Mbappe comes off. And when he does, something quite remarkable from Didier Deschamps. He bows to him as he exits the field. Deschamps, who's just returned from something which may have altered a little bit his perspective on football and relationships, etc.

20:29With big smiles, he was embraced by Mbappe after the first goal and then saluting him in this manner when he came off. It was a very special moment. Yeah, I've never seen Didier Deschamps do something like that before. And he said after the game that he'd been really touched by the fact the players had all gone over to him after Mbappe had scored the opening goal. And Mbappe said that was something we decided as a group of players that we wanted to do to show our solidarity with the coach after this very difficult week for him. But yeah, just further proof of how close that relationship between Deschamps and Mbappe is.

21:05Deschamps, who chose to make Mbappé his captain in 2023 after Hugo Lloris retired from international football. And there was a little bit of criticism about that. Should it have gone to Antoine Griezmann, who has since retired himself from international football? But with each game that passes at this World Cup, you understand the logic behind this decision by Deschamps to make Mbappé the boss of the team because it is working pretty well. We were having a discussion about this earlier about Deschamps. He seems, he's almost like he's a bit, looking at that reaction to Mbappe, it's like he's a bit demob happy.

21:40He's about to finish in the job, isn't he? So it's coming to an end and it's as if he's properly learned how to love it at this point. Obviously, it has had a lot going on this week, but the football itself must be delighting him. But if you go back not so very long, Deschamps had this reputation as a coach who you could give all the attacking resources in the world to, but he would still create this kind of quite, you know, a team with the reins on. and now, and you've got a theory about why this is, it seems like he's just let the reins go and he's shoehorning all these attacking players into his team in a way that's really working.

22:15It's made them so dangerous and they're kind of a different France to what he's had previously and that's why they are so good. I mean, Deschamps' problem, I mean, problem in speech marks because he's done relatively well as France coach, but he's always had an issue with the fourth attacking player. He's quite happy to have three attacking players in his team but every time he's tried to put a fourth attacking player in he has felt that the team has become too unbalanced and so you look at the success that France have enjoyed under Deschamps often the nominal fourth attacking player has either been a midfielder like Blaise Matuidi at the 2018 World Cup who occupies this left wing role a nominally attacking role but is basically there to provide balance or at the 2022 World Cup he asks Antoine Griezmann a forward to play in midfield and kind of play within himself.

23:05This, I think, is the first time that he's put four true attackers on the pitch at the start. And why has he been able to do that? The reason it works is because pretty much all of them, Mbappe a little bit less so, they work so hard off the ball. Alise Dembele-Barcola, they put such a shift in. And in fairness to Mbappe, he gets an awful lot of stick for not putting in a defensive shift, particularly with Real Madrid, previously at PSG, sometimes with France. He has been putting a bit of a shift in as well. And you wonder whether some of it is this realisation that the moment he left PSG, they became this spectacular football team because everyone started trying to do the same thing and work hard together.

23:43And I think we're seeing some of that influence on the France team. Elisi is the bonus though, isn't he? He's become world class in quite a short period of time. And you shouldn't pretend that France haven't had great teams in the past because Deschamps has already won the World Cup with them. but I think this is a if I can say a better version of France than 2018 Is this better than say the 2022 team that took Argentina to penalties was it who was saying that they were better than even the 98 vintage with Zizou Patrick Vieira I mean the feeling with regard to the 1998 team is that they actually peaked two years later at Euro 2000 Zidane actually had quite a disappointing 1998 World Cup which people forget because he scored the two goals in the final that gave France the trophy.

24:31But he got sent off in the second game, was suspended for a couple of matches, didn't make a massive contribution. And in Euro 2000, he was incredible. And the whole team was more mature. The teams that are generally held up as the best team France has ever had are the 1958 team that reached the World Cup semi-finals, the 1984 mid-80s team, Michel Platini and the Carré Magique, Magic Square midfield, and Euro 2000. I think this France team potentially has a better attack than any of those teams. Because a lot of the more successful French teams in World Cup terms, they've had great defences, they've had great midfields, but they've won the 1998 World Cup where the centre-40 didn't score a goal.

25:10And the same thing happened in 2018. This time around, it's the attack that is really the strong point of the team. Well, seeing them in action on Tuesday against Sweden, Phil, you were saying, was a bit like watching a goal of the tournament compilation. In many ways, the goal that they didn't actually score was the greatest one of all. That remarkable overhead kick from Michael Olisse. Yeah, it would have been a beauty. I mean, I don't know at this stage how you'd pick a goal of the tournament. It seems to be a daily occurrence, like genuinely a daily occurrence where you see more and more goals.

25:41Mexico's tonight wouldn't top the list, but they were great finishes, like good quality finishes. But this, though, so he executes out of nothing this remarkable. overhead kick, which crashes off the bar and then goes out to, I think, Dembele. Yeah, Dembele. But this is the problem, you see. If it's not Mbappe, it's Dembele doing what he was doing and scoring a hat-trick. And if it's not Dembele, it's Alissi. And then you've got Barclough and you've got Dewey. It's a sort of like five-pronged attack and it is really difficult to contain. So how do you contain them? When I pondered this earlier on, you offered an interesting theory.

26:18Well, PSG managed to work it out against Bayern Munich in the Champions League semifinals. It didn't work it out perfectly. It wasn't as if Alisse contributed nothing to them. So stop Alisse and you stop France? I think pretty. Well, it seems to me to be the best way of doing it. Mbappe is their best player. And I think it will be proven by the end of the tournament that Mbappe is the best player at the tournament as well. But Alisse seems to me to be the player who makes them tick. And there was that thing with PSG where, from what I read anyway, Luis Enrique was saying to his goalkeeper or was wanting his goalkeeper to effectively put clearances into touch so that it would give Bayern Munich a throw in and would allow them to swarm Elisi.

26:58And it seems like that sort of tactic seems like the right way to go because if you try and play them punch for punch you're going to get knocked out, aren't you? Or you stop them having the ball and when France came up against Spain at the last Euros they didn't get near Spain and I suspect if a team like Spain were to come up against France, France might encounter similar problems. I think you can get at their central midfield and their defenders but yeah, you need to have the ball. Is there a team like Spain on France's side of the draw? Yes, they're called Spain. Well, there we go. They're called Spain.

27:32But interestingly, there aren't many other teams who have that sort of level of ball retention. So France have an extraordinarily amenable run coming up. They've got Paraguay in the last 60 Then in the quarterfinals, either Canada or Morocco, if they get that far. Then a semifinal against one of Portugal, Croatia, Spain, Austria, the US, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Belgium or Senegal. One of those teams will reach the semifinal if France get that far. That's who they'll be facing. It'll be interesting to see what happens. A couple of stats they want to throw in before we move on, as we must. Since Mbappé debuted, this is courtesy of Colin Miller.

28:12since Mbappé debuted at the World Cup in 2018. He has scored more knockout goals than England, Portugal, Netherlands, Spain, Germany and Italy. That's pretty good. He is the all-time top scorer. Throwing Italy in a slightly gratuitous. He is now the all-time top scorer in World Cup knockouts with 10 in nine knockout matches. How many more than Cristiano Ronaldo is that, Phil? Cristiano Ronaldo has eight in knockout matches. In knock him out, Cristiano Ronaldo has zero. Yeah, so it's 10 more than Cristiano Ronaldo. And in terms of top scoring in this tournament, he's on six goals, which makes him level with Lionel Messi.

28:53The thing is, he's going at a goal a game, if not better, at World Cups, which is just absurd. I don't know whether anybody's done that before, have they? It is extraordinary. Well, Fontaine did famously, but he only played one World Cup. Ah, of course, yeah. And goals were different in the 50s, weren't they? They arrived slightly more frequently. Watching France on Tuesday, you could understand why Norway's manager decided not to even try playing them with his best players and give them a rest so that they would be fresh for their last 16. Norway, that was, which came around on Tuesday as Norway took on Ivory Coast.

29:26Let's get on to what happened in that game with our special guest, Martin Sleepless, next.

29:37Tuesday in the World Cup Erling Haaland scored a last gasp winner as Norway knocked Ivory Coast out of the competition the Wigins had taken a first half lead through a wonderful goal from Antonio Noosa then with 15 minutes to go second half substitute for Ivory Coast Amadjalo scored a perhaps even more wonderful goal I don't know we'll discuss that in a second with extra time looming. An inch-perfect cross found Erling Haaland. It was almost impossible to miss, which is just as well, because he did his best to... He did, but it was still an inch-perfect finish in the end, wasn't it? It did go in.

30:13His fifth of the tournament, so he's right up there as well. And Norway's first-ever World Cup knockout win. Woof. There in Dallas, after a few misadventures along the way, was our favourite Norway fan and podcaster with the ankle severing, Martin Sleeblers, and he joined us shortly after. Martin, you crashed into a tree, you ditched your bus, but you made it to Dallas for the game. And oh my word, the Vikings march on. First of all, how about that goal from Noosa? Yeah, the Noosa goal was, it's been a goal we've been waiting for because he has been one of the players that people in Norway has expected the most of without maybe...

31:06I think he had a lot of pressure on his shoulders. So when he scored that goal, I think everyone got super excited about him being the one that scored. It could have been anyone that scored the goal, But him doing it, I think that's particularly important for Norway and for the rest of the tournament. Because we've been kind of disappointed, to be honest. And now he's done what we have thought or expected from him, which he hasn't done at all during the first two matches. So now we're rolling, I think. Now Nusa is back and Nusa is firing. Let's go. OK, you're rolling and you're rowing in a very real sense as well.

31:54That was Norway's first goal, as you know, in a World Cup knockout match since 1938. And then after Amogelo had scored an equally fine goal for Ivory Coast, Norway came back with another. And this time it featured, well, the finish from Haaland, but perhaps more importantly, that inch-perfect cross from Berg. To be honest, when we speak about it now, It's almost as if I'm a bit tearing up because I'm deeply moved. Patrick Berg is a symbol for northern Norwegians. And him starting in the World Cup in this match and putting that pass across to Holland. And Holland scoring the winner. At the time, it was too much for me almost.

32:45Talking about it now. is almost too much for me because it's a dream come true in many senses. And being there, watching it with my friends and colleagues and knowing that this seals the deal, we are going to play the next game in the World Cup, it's a thing. It's incredible. I got a text message from my father because he saw the match at home in Norway, obviously. And he just gave, Martin, I wish I could hold you right now. As if I'm a kid, a child. So it was incredible, to be honest. Wow. Patrick Berger plays, of course, for Bodo Glimtu. You spent some magical months following around in the Champions League.

33:43But you've got a magical tour going on right now because back in whatever vehicle you choose to get back to New York because you've got Brazil coming up in New York. And by the way, before we even get on to that, Tuesday got even better because then Sweden got knocked out. I know, right? 3-0 against France. They didn't even score against France. And they played their full strength team. Norway played the B team and scored. So this day couldn't have gone any better. And I went to Six Flags to celebrate. So I have done everything. This has been a perfect day. Wow. You're in the last 16, New York and Brazil.

34:27Martin, is this Norwegian football heritage? Last time you were at the World Cup, 1998, victory over Brazil in the group stage. I've seen it described as one of the most famous sporting moments in Norwegian history. Is that fair? Yeah, that's true. Everyone knows Rechdal, the penalty scorer of the 2-1 goal, except Gen Z. They don't know anything of that sin of 98. So it's sporting. This will obviously be the biggest sporting event in Norway ever. The thing is, Norway hasn't ever lost against Brazil. we played four games two draws two victories so the pressure is on Brazil I guess yeah well it is and there won't be any paketa and there's all sorts of other things going on but what a momentum that's building around this Norway side you're on your way I guess after tonight a little bit of celebrating to New York for the game yeah we're going the bus as I said we don't have it anymore so we're going to do plane and then we're going to stay in New York for five days, the temperatures there's a heat wave coming there are many things now in the unknown for me five days in New York just chilling what's up with that I'm looking forward to every minute of the next five days of course you are Martin we're looking forward to hearing about it next time, the summer the year indeed of the Norwegian underdog continues.

36:10Martin, we salute you. Have the best of times in the meanwhile. Thank you. Call me after the Brazil win. Bye-bye. Absolutely. Wonderful stuff there from Martin Sleipness. Now, as Martin points out, the pressure is on Brazil when these two teams meet. I know it's a day or two away, but just a quick thought about that. Norway against Brazil. A Brazil team already without Rafinha. And now we're here without Lucas It's Paquitar who's had a grade two hamstring tear, it's now confirmed. And so it's going to be out for at least two games, possibly the rest of the tournament, whichever is longer. Yeah, I mean, midfield has been problematic for Brazil since the start of the tournament.

36:52You know, you think about the opening game against Morocco. Casemiro really struggled, was taken off at half-time. Fabinho came on. And that midfield three of Casemiro, Guimarães and Paquitar, you know, has occasionally looked a little bit leaden-footed. and it was only after Carlo Ancelotti reconfigured his midfield that Brazil got over the line against Japan in the round of 32 thanks to that late, late Gabriel Martinelli goal. So yeah, I wonder to what extent the approach that he settled on in the second half of that game will colour his decision-making when it comes to replacing Paquitar. I can't see him doing the exact same thing again of having Martinelli play in that role but they don't have a huge amount of players in that part of the pitch.

37:40You offer something different to the players who are already there. True enough. There will be massive favourites for this game, though, against Norway. For all Norway's firepower, Neuza, who Martin was getting so emotional about there, and Erling Haaland. You talked about the Haaland goal. What about Neuza's strike, though, in the first half? Oh, that was lovely, yeah. And this is the thing about Norway, is it can't all be on Haaland. and I think at the point at which it becomes all about Haaland is the point at which Norway will run into trouble but they're a really good team and I do think Brazil are quite clearly favourites for the game but I don't think the gap between them is as massive as it would have been at other points in the history of the World Cup the weird thing about Pachter there is that Brazil was so much better without him and Ancelotti does like that 4-2-4 it's risky but you sort of think against Norway he might be a little bit tempted because of how well it worked in the second half.

38:38The trouble with Haaland is, though, he seems to have come to this tournament and decided that he's just going to enjoy it and have fun. He seems to get himself in the perfect psychological space, which is that he takes his job seriously, really seriously, but he doesn't take it too seriously. And he has obviously decided that he's going to come and make the most of it, and he seems to be actually loving it, which I don't think is necessarily true of everybody at World Cups. And he's also that sort of player who gets in the head of players like Gabriel and defenders. So I think Norway have a definite, definite chance in this game.

39:10Does he have much history with Gabriel? Does he? None at all, as far as I'm aware. It's one of the things everyone's looking forward to seeing, those two renewing their friendship, as Martin was mentioning as well. Of the 88 teams that Brazil have faced in international football, who's the only one that they've never beaten before? Shall we say Norway? It is Norway. Ivory Coast, meanwhile, were defeated by Norway on Tuesday and they head out of the competition. And it's a shame to see them go, but let's salute them by eulogising that Amagialo goal. Yeah, I mean, they've been, without patronising, but they've been so much fun to watch Ivory Coast.

39:48And again today, first off in particular, they made almost all the running. Jan Diamonde, who's been one of the breakout stars of the tournament, on the left, Nicola Pepe on the right. and yeah it was the decision to bring on Amar Diallo that tipped things in their favour after they'd fallen behind and he actually came on and played in the number 10 role which is not a position that we're accustomed to seeing him playing in when he's playing for Manchester United but did really well and yeah scored a fantastic goal picks the ball up on the right kind of jinxed towards the box plays a little one-two with Pepe steps inside a challenge from Sander Berger and then curls in with his left foot really really nice goal and you thought it would be enough to take them at least to extra time, but sadly not.

40:32And that, of course, their first ever knockout game at a World Cup. So I think they'll be disappointed because there wasn't a huge amount between the teams and they did have a few opportunities. There don't need to be any recriminations really with Ivory Coast. They've been fine, they've been decent. They could have got a much easier game. Tough group as well. And also in the 32, a bit like the Netherlands really. They'd landed a tie that was kind of 50-50 a bit and went against them. So they haven't had a terrible tournament. They just haven't got very far in it. All right. Speaking of the Netherlands, we learned on Tuesday that Ronald Koeman has resigned as their manager after their exit on Monday in a penalty shootout with Morocco.

41:12Of course, shootouts are a lottery. It's the finest of margins, but the reaction back in Netherlands has been pretty unforgiving to the performances before this. As one Dutch paper put it, he bows out with a painful statistic Throughout his entire second tenure, the Dutch national team failed to beat a single country from the top 25 of the FIFA world rankings, among the many charges levelled at the departing manager, that he was over-reliant on veterans, veterans like Virgil van Dijk. Who's going to come in as Ronald Koeman departs? Well, the name of Arne Slott's been mentioned. Inevitably. There you go.

41:48Other figures who might be figuring in the thinking, Ruud van Nisseroy, who served as Koeman's assistant. Michael Reitziger, who's currently in charge of the under-21s for the Netherlands. That would be quite on brand, wouldn't it? The sort of association coach getting pushed up the top job. Yeah, you could see that. Have we got time to really quickly mention, I hope so, in that penalty shootout, one curiosity was that, did you see Justin Klivert missing his penalty? Phil, take up the story then So, I can't remember the exact gap of years Well, it's 2000 and 2026 Yes, okay, so 26 years exactly to the day Since his father, Patrick Hit the same post on the same side of the goal From the penalty spot as he did Which is absolutely weird And when you watch the videos side by side It's properly uncanny It's spooky, yeah Patrick Clivert, who was in that penalty shootout with Italy Of course Yeah And struck a penalty which hit the left post and his son 26 years later does the same thing that was the shootout with the totty Penenka against Van der Stad wasn't it yeah everybody's going for the corners though with penalties we were having a chat about this earlier me and somebody else and we were saying I wonder if there's a bit of psychology about the way in which goalkeepers are now researching everything and getting better and better at saving penalties because everybody or most players seem to be going for the bottom corners Coop Miners was a great finish but I mean it was literally right inside the post there's no margin for error and players are going for bangers rather than just careful short odds efforts and it's quite noticeable and a lot of misses so far In that shoot up, Bunu just like running across the line as opposed to diving in conventional fact you wonder whether that might be a bit of a game changer given the rise of the stutter step penalty which a lot of people dislike and players waiting to see which way the goalkeeper is going to go If you know the goalkeeper is just going to run madly in one direction, I'm sure that's probably going to get in your head.

43:51It's mad business. Mad business. Anyway, will we be seeing spot kicks in Wednesday's games? I wonder. Let's get on to those fixtures next because they include England.

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45:53Wednesday in the World Cup, we've got three more last 32 games for you. England taking on DR Congo. That's in Atlanta, Georgia. It's followed by Belgium against Senegal from Seattle. and then the evening game is the USA, Santa Clara near San Francisco taking on Bosnia-Herzegovina. Well, of course, we're kind of focusing here on England's clash with DR Congo. We spoke a little bit about England's prospects earlier on, but in this, the first ever meeting between these two nations, England and DR Congo, what should Thomas Tuchel expect from his opposition to find out earlier on we dialed up Mahir Mazahi.

46:36We've seen one big European name already humbled by an African side in this round of 32, Netherlands put out by Morocco. What are the prospects for DR Congo doing the same to England? I don't think very high. The DR Congo are a side that are very good at frustrating opponents, and we saw that this happened to England against Ghana earlier in the tournament. So on one hand, that could happen again, but the DR Congo are also a side under Sebastian De Sabre that have struggled to score goals and so I don't think there's going to be too much of a threat from them now there has been a little bit of a change many fans were calling for Cedric Bakambu at one point the most expensive African player of all time when he made the move to China I think at around 60 million euros they were calling for him to be dropped which is a big move because he's more than just a player He's also the captain.

47:30He's a leader in the locker room. But his best days are behind him. And there's somebody that's playing on the African continent for Pyramids FC. They were the CAF Champions League champions two years ago. But he's much more dynamic, much fresher, much younger. His name is Fiston Maele. And he came on in the last match and really had a part in playing in those two goals. So there's going to be an interesting decision that the cyber has to make. Like, do you go with the player that has the respect of all his peers, that is the bigger name, so to speak? Or do you go with the younger, fresher, more unknown player?

48:03I think if you ask, if you took a straw poll of Congolese fans, they'd probably go for Maiele. But they've also got Johan Wissa, who wasn't cheap either. Johan Wissa, more than just a player, he's somebody that means a lot to Congolese people because he takes the time out of his, you know, luxurious footballing lifestyle. like most people like to go to Dubai most people like to go to I don't know Istanbul or you know inserts whatever destination that celebrity footballers like to go to but you and we saw a few years ago spent a lot of time in eastern Congo where there has been a very fractious war some would say civil war some would say you know the m23 are sponsored by neighbors and he spent time over there promoting it talking about you know how people are living their daily lives and it was seen as something that he didn't really have to do he wasn't born there he's not necessarily from there and so for Iwista to do that it felt like he really understood his responsibility as a Congolese international and so he's become a fan favorite and again it's frustrating year but for him to show up for his country at the biggest stage I think it meant more that it came from him for Congolese fans.

49:13It's such a difficult time this for DR Congo. You mentioned the conflict there in the east of the country and also the outbreak of Ebola that's ongoing. So what it means for them, what is it, 52 years since the previous appearance at the World Cup to have made it to a knockout game against England? In many cases, I hate speaking like this because it's so cliche and I think it can be lazy at times when they say, like, they've already won just by being here. But it kind of is the case that they've already won just by being here. You know, like, as you mentioned, it's been 52 years. Last time they were called Zaire.

49:45They were not called the Democratic Republic of Congo. They suffered a very heavy defeat. I'm not sure. I think it might be the worst defeat of all time in World Cup history against Yugoslavia. Yeah. And then there were other various scandals, you know, very embarrassing performance against Brazil as well. So for them to come and to just be competitive and to make it out of the group stages with this group of players that has been together with this coach that has been together for the last two, three years, it does kind of feel like that in itself is a victory. They're going to give it everything they have against England.

50:15They are capable of an upset, but I just think that the chances are quite low. Lastly then, Meher, they're one of nine African sides to make it to the knockout stages, and admittedly an expanded knockout round in this year's tournament. But we've already seen, as I mentioned, Morocco beating Netherlands, Senegal, also on Wednesday will be up against Belgium. Who have you got your hopes pinned on for a deep run by an African side again this time? I had my hopes pinned a little bit on actually Cote d 'Ivoire and they were just eliminated by Norway unfortunately look I think getting nine African teams out of the group stages into the knockouts has been an incredible accomplishment but for me what it proves more than anything is that we have a very deep middle class in African football we have a lot of good teams and I think we could even throw teams like Nigeria Cameroon Mali Burkina Faso in there I think they could have gotten out of this format of the World Cup.

51:11They could have gotten out of the group stages as well. But we don't have many great teams. And what I mean by great team is what you saw Morocco do against the Netherlands. They can go up against an elite side or what they did against Brazil as well. And they're not just sitting in a low block hoping for a result as we'll see Congo probably do against England. They'll actually meet the other team in the middle of the pitch and they'll take them on. And they'll be the more ambitious side. They'll be wanting to win rather than just get a positive result. I think in Africa we have two, maybe three.

51:36it's Morocco, Cote d 'Ivoire and Senegal and now one of them, Cote d 'Ivoire has been knocked out so the only other one I still am kind of having hopes for if they figure out their defensive woes is Senegal The always excellent Mahe Amazahi there, well I wonder what we're going to get from Thomas Tuchel the opening game was so exhilarating for many England supporters, that 4-2 win over Croatia, that buzz has died a little bit with the games that have followed although the second half against Panama was enough to get the three points. Do you anticipate a more gung-ho approach? No, I don't think so.

52:13I think it'll be a routine England win. Congo are a competent team, but I don't think competent will be enough. And the thing that probably gives them a bit of a shout is that Whistler seems to have found some form, which did not exist at club level at all last season. But actually, as coming to this tournament and clicked to a certain degree, but I don't think that on its own will particularly cause England a problem. But no, this is not going to be a classic, I don't think. What's the team news that Tom O'Toole is currently scratching his head over? So the good news is we're expecting Declan Rice to be back and fit, which would probably mean he'll come into midfield alongside Elliot Anderson, which would enable Jude Bellingham to play further forward.

52:55But problems are right back, given that Rhys James and now also Jarrell Quonsa, who started at right back against Panama have been ruled out. It's probably going to be Jed Spence at right back. Will Saka make the starting line-up? We're just seeing the arm around the shoulder there. Yeah, I would have thought so. He started the last game, didn't he? And you tend to think that the strongest England starting XI has Saka in it. And this is one of those games where, as Tuchel said himself, England will probably dominate possession. So in those circumstances, I think it makes sense to have Saka in there, if he can unpick that Congo back five.

53:33With problems at right back, Phil, how ironic that they'll be facing, one imagines, Aaron Wan-Bissaka, who was lining up for England in that kind of role at under-20, under-21 level. Yeah, there's been a little bit of that. And you do see kind of movement at that level. 21's where you've got to pick your boat, really, and decide which one you're going to sail in. But I mean, I presume you guys must have discussed Rhys James already, but there was that amazing quote from Tuchel where he was talking about the injury to Rhys James and saying nobody could have seen this coming, to which people said, I think everybody saw this coming, most likely.

54:11And he could have called up Trent Alexander-Arnold. I do actually kind of understand Looking at the tactical setup Why he's not that big on Trent But at the same time It seems like Rhys James looked like the sort of wall That was easy to walk into If you know what I mean And though it came to pass Well we'll see how much of a wall D.R. Conger can offer tomorrow As England try and book their passage To the Azteca and the last 16 The other games coming up on Wednesday USA's clash with Bosnia-Herzegovina which has USA favourites, which is an unusual position for them to be in in a knockout game of football.

54:51Mauricio Pochettino, who issued an apology. He said sorry for being grumpy, essentially, after their defeat in their last group game to Turkey, when he got a little bit of the hump that no one had said, well done for winning the group, and he exited the press conference quite swiftly. He said he was frustrated because his team had lost in the middly dead rubber and that it was my problem, not anyone else's. So that's nice that things are heading towards this game on a better note. America, US have failed to win in 13 consecutive matches now against European opposition, Turkey being the latest example of that.

55:27Bosnia, Herzegovina, of course, come from the old continent. So we'll see how that goes. Do you have strong feelings about this match-up, USA, to go through? There's a lot of pressure on the Mino because Canada have gone through, Mexico have gone through. So it's waiting for the third host to progress. but I actually think Canada making the last 16 makes it more pressurised for the States because it's going to be a really bad look if they get turned over by Bosnia and Canada, particularly with Jesse Mars, have gone through to this game against Morocco. I feel like the US will get through this game, but I think it might be a lot more dicey than people are ready for.

56:04Well, we'll see. Christian Pulisic came back in the late spells of that Turkey game. And he will start, I think. going. Right, and that makes a huge difference to them. You've seen Bosnia-Herzegovina all too closely, haven't you? Yes, yes. And Bosnia are like the worst kind of team for the states to be going up against because there will be no glory in defeat regardless of the circumstances. This is the kind of team that the US should be capable of beating. Bosnia are not a very nice team to play against. As I know as a Wales fan, as you know James, as a lover of Italian football, they can be kind of obdurate and just sit in and kind of spoil the game and wait for an opportunity.

56:41And wait for penalties as well. They've got an excellent record on penalties. But they have talent as well. We saw that with Karim Malabegovic scoring that lovely goal against Qatar in their final group game. They've got the tournament know-how of players like Edin Dzeko. So they are thorny opposition. I expect it will probably be a quite unpleasant experience for the US. But as Phil says, you would have thought they've got enough quality to get over the line. I also don't think that beating Bosnia in terms of the record against European nations is really the point. I don't think that's what folk are getting at it's the question of can the US match up to or go closer to matching up to Spain, France your best European sides of which Bosnia are not one so it might be a European scalp on the record but I don't think if they do win there should be a massive song and dance about the fact that they've ended this streak of 13 games and can't do it you just wait Phil yes you agree we'll see if they do win or whoever does win that clash will be finding themselves in a last 16 fixture against either Belgium or Senegal because that's the other game taking place tomorrow Belgium against Senegal both of whom scored five goals in their final group game let's see Belgium had a 5-0 against New Zealand Senegal's was against Iraq so read into that what you will.

57:59We've had quite a similar tournament so far in that Senegal lost their first two games they had this big blowout win against Iraq Belgium drew both of their first two games against what looked like on paper to be beatable opposition and then had a big blowout win against New Zealand. Lots of tournament know-how in both squads. I think on paper, it's actually hard to say because, I mean, Senegal, I think, are a better team but don't have the experience of a country like Belgium when it comes to big tournaments. To this point, you've got the AFCON winners, although obviously the title was then handed over, and you've got a very, very good European side in Belgium, you almost wouldn't know that they're here.

58:38They haven't really stuck their heads up properly yet. But I think that against New Zealand was a particularly good game for Belgium to get themselves going. I think it proved that de Ketla up front is a much better option than Lukaku, who is just not really... When they took de Ketla off for Lukaku in a previous game, they immediately got a goal. We'll find out, I guess. We'll find out tomorrow. But I think Senegal's recent big game experience in that final could be the difference. We'll see. We'll see on Wednesday. That, though, I think brings us to the end of today's show. It's been a blast.

59:13Thank you ever so much, Phil and Tom. Thanks, of course, to Martin and Meher earlier on. And thanks, above all, to you for joining us. The production crew have been outstanding as ever. We'll get together and do it all again in a day's time. So I hope you'll be back with us as we return in 24. For now, from all of us here, it's goodbye.

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