Totally Extra: Absolutely Fabregas

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2:57The Athletic FC.

3:05Totally extra. Today, absolutely Fabregas. We get some CISC education on the mulleted teen who was better than Roy Keane, who wore a magic hat and was one of the greatest passes the Premier League has ever witnessed? Was he Batman, though, in a team that didn't win and Robin in his teams that did? And how long before he's back in London on the bench? We'll be asking those questions and more in this Totally Extra.

3:39Monday, the 28th of September, and today's Totally Extra features Adrian Clarke. Hello, Adrian. Hello. Michael Cox. Hello, Michael. Hi, James. And Liam Toomey. All right, Liam. Hello, James. Hello. Wow. And we're here to talk about Cesc Fabregas. Adrian, where does he stand among your pantheon of Arsenal legends? Ooh, gone for a big one, early doors. Yeah. Good question. Well, he's up there among the greatest midfielders to have worn the badge. Is he the greatest passer Arsenal have ever had? Again, that's a big call. I mean, people talk about Liam Brady, don't they? But I think he's the best I've seen, definitely.

4:25I think he's the best all-round central midfielder. He falls just short for me to Patrick Vieira, but he was a very special player. And just to see him as a teenager look so accomplished, so silky, was an absolute treat, I've got to say. Liam it's lucky he went to Chelsea so he could actually win something eh that is the that is the duality of Fabregas's Premier League legacy isn't it in that I think a lot of his iconic moments are tied up in this youthful prodigy Arsenal era but yeah he came to Chelsea to be a winner that's what they say at Stamford Bridge anyway yeah fair enough Michael we did Zidane recently on Totally Extra and you would You mentioned the fact that for you, what made Zidane great or his kind of USP, whatever, the thing he did better than anybody else was, as you put it, a wayward ball dropping in his general direction, his control.

5:25What did Cesc do better than anyone? Yeah, I think at one point he was the best passer in the Premier League. And I also just like the fact he was so forward thinking. I think that's what made him different to the other Spanish midfielders at the time. obviously he grew up a little bit in Barcelona's academy but then from 16 onwards was was at Arsenal or in fact even earlier than that and I think it just made him you know he probably gave the ball away more than his uh Spanish contemporaries in in those you know really successful tournament winning sides but I think he offered a drive and a directness and a purposefulness that I think sometimes was otherwise lacking from Spain.

6:03Producer Charlie's take on uh Fabregas is that he was Batman for a team that didn't win anything or won FA Cup. And he was Robin for the teams that did, your Spains and indeed your Barcelona when he made that, what was supposedly the dream move back. We'll get into all of that. But there is that vague sense, I think, perhaps with Fabregas that great as he was that there was maybe something even better. However, he's certainly embarked on something pretty great right now as a manager. We'll get into all of that. I have got a quiz question for you, though, Fabregas related. he is one of only six players from outside the British Isles to win the PFA Young Player of the Year award.

6:49One of only six. Can you name the other five? Five players apart from Cesc outside the British Isles to win the PFA Young Player of the Year award. We'll have the answer at the end, but any names coming to you already? Yeah, I think there's... Cristiano? Yeah, that's the obvious one, I think, isn't it? But I'd have to have a think after that. Cristiano's on the list. Given that 23 is the cutoff, isn't it? Yeah. Eden Hazard? We've got two already. Probably best stop there. We've got three more to find. We'll have the answers at the end. I can reveal, though, that one is from France, one is from Germany, and one is from Australia.

7:32A little giveaway there, perhaps. Anyway, before we go any further, let's open up the almanac.

7:41It's the 28th of September. What has this week in football history brought us? Let's see, on 28th of September 2004, Wayne Rooney made his debut appearance for Manchester United following his move from Everton. And I think it's one of the all-time great debuts now. It was against Fernabasci in the Champions League. Wazza choosing this occasion to score his first ever senior hat-trick the third of which was a sumptuous free kick becoming in the process the youngest player ever to score a hat-trick in the Champions League and setting off on his road to becoming Man Utd's all-time top scorer. It's Rooney.

8:22It's inevitable. Some things are just meant to be. Wayne Rooney has saved his first senior hat-trick for his Manchester United debut in the Champions League there is tomorrow morning's front page face never mind the back page what a spike, so confident I think we all felt he might do it, he just might do it but to step up and do that hat-trick on your debut in the Champions League is absolutely top class, it really is goalkeeper, absolutely no chance not even anywhere near it on September the 29th 2007 there was the top scoring Premier League game ever remember this Portsmouth 7 Reading 4 11 goals that's a record that still stands at the time of recording a game that also featured a hat trick anyone remember who by?

9:23Benjani Benjani? what Benjani Liam? Had the ball, but they're running a chance now. This is Ben Jarny on a hat-trick. Ben Jarny! His first hat-trick in English football. And Portsmouth lead 4-2. Do you remember what the other famous story about Ben Jarny? Well, one of the other famous stories about Ben Jarny, who almost blew a move from Portsmouth to Manchester City when he supposedly fell asleep in the airport lounge and missed two consecutive flights. However Some days later he did eventually make the transfer October the 1st 1996 Saw Arsene Wenger Officially take charge Of Arsenal After being released by Nagoya Grampus 8 Arsene who?

10:14As the headline said at the time Remember it So what was the reaction In the training ground Adrian? Yeah I remember it well Well he'd been announced much earlier so there was a sort of holding period which was a little bit odd because I think Patrick Vieira came during that time and Remy Gard as well so there was a couple of signings arrived before him so it was a bit of a build up to the arrival and yeah I remember it very clearly and I remember the players slight bemusement really at how different everything was right from the get go that first warm up where you're doing Pilates and plyometric stuff and it's like, what's going on here?

10:56But it kind of worked, didn't it? What did he do that first day? Did he kind of wander and shake everyone's hand and do hulu? Yeah, exactly that. And then we all sat around the back of the changing rooms at London Colney on benches. It was quite not a very salubrious environment. And yeah, he sort of stood at the front and sort of introduced himself and told us about him and what his vision was. and yeah, like at the end of it, it was, you know, there's no clap or anything like that. It's like, right, let's go on with it. And yeah, I think a few of the lads were like, you know, it's pretty taking the mickey out of the way he spoke and, you know, maybe his look as well because, you know, he didn't look like your average football manager at the time, did he?

11:41So yeah, it was, yeah, it was an interesting day, that one. Wenger has been in Japan, doesn't know anything about English football and the demands of our game. It's Alex Ferguson famously pronounced. How long did you give him, Adrian, sincerely? What do you mean? How long when he came in? You must be used to seeing managers come in and you think, hmm. Yeah, well, we'd had George Graham. Well, we'd had George Graham, haven't we? So that was a long time, really, not so much. Yeah, no, I didn't think so. And there was that one point, and it was a horrible moment where there was this made-up story going around about him that was front-page news.

12:17and at that point you thought, well this is it it's not going to last very long at all but thankfully that was just nonsense and yeah, it worked out fine I knew after about a month seeing the players training and how much they'd come on because I trained a bit with the first team first two or three weeks and then I had a bit of time out and when I saw them maybe five, six weeks in I was like, yeah, this guy knows what he's doing they were sharper, they were fitter, they were stronger they were getting better straight away all right well he is a man who has a great deal to do with today's subject says Fabregas so let's get into that I made my mind up that I really wanted to go there because I would have been training with the first team you know Arsene Wenger is one of the best coaches you know when it comes down to believing the young talents two months later I was making my debut A moment to remember for Fabrice Fabregas, the youngest scorer in the famous history of Arsenal Football Club.

13:19Fabregas joins him. Worth a shot, surely. Oh! Dynamite! Absolute dynamite! Through again, it's Fabregas! What an end to the half for Arsenal!

13:56Francesc Fabregas or Fabri-Pas as I believe some enterprising fans dubbed him And we've discussed his ability at finding a teammate with the ball. He also scored plenty of goals. But in terms of assisting, I was quite stunned to read that he's got more assists than David Silva, more assists than Xavi, more career assists than Iniesta. And how about this for a stat? Between 2006-7 and 2010-11, that four-year stretch, Fabregas created the most chances in the top division leagues. that's England, Spain, Italy, Germany and France nobody was more productive in terms of chances than him and perhaps chances created is the fairest metric of all for deciding the ability of somebody like that does that surprise you, that's that, Michael?

14:49Not surprised me, no, I think he was on that level and I think he was a really good Premier League player obviously he had three years back in Barcelona he had a stint at the end of his career with Monaco but yeah, I associate him with the Premier League I think he adapted really, really, well, quickly. Obviously, he came through as a young player, really, at Arsenal. But yeah, he always just felt right for the league. And I think that was quite impressive considering at that point, you know, these days we're accustomed to Spanish players and Spanish playmakers in Premier League, but there weren't too many of them at that point when he came in.

15:21Arteta was there, but not a top-class player, never capped for Spain. Xavi Alonso had joined Liverpool in 2004, had some good spells for Liverpool and some not-so-good spells. But Fabregas, I think, was probably the first Spanish player to be really regarded as one of the best players in the Premier League. And he clearly was for quite a few years. I think he's the most complete creator that I've seen in the Premier League. Because you think back to the player that he was at Arsenal, this intrepid attacking midfielder, constantly getting into the final third and either scoring himself or making the right decision basically every time.

15:56And then when he comes back to Chelsea, he drops deeper. He's more of a dictator. He's not a dictator, but he dictates play. But he still finds a way to carry a creative threat from that position. And watching his assists back, his Premier League assists in preparation for this. Did you watch all of them then? I did, yeah, because it was just fun. 111. I mean, I was like, you know, eating and stuff. But it's just the diversity of his assists that really is impressive. Yeah, you had the little backheels, Bergkamp-Best through balls, long sweeping balls that you might associate with the Pirlo's, toe pokes like a totty or something like that.

16:45And maybe, would you call it his signature move, that kind of lobbed assist, that ball over? Was that the classic thing? That's the thing that sticks in my mind when I think of Chelsea-era Fabregas. Right, yeah. Obviously, at Arsenal, he was a lot more box-to-box. When he was playing deeper at Chelsea, he would constantly drop into that quarterback pocket and hit, at the risk of mixing metaphors, he'd hit the kind of pass that you'd expect to see from a world-class golfer, like an incredible approach shot, straight onto the chest or into the stride of a sprinting Diego Costa. That's what comes to my mind because they did that absolutely flawlessly about five or six times in crucial games.

17:31His vision was unmatched. Fabregas looking for his favourite target man, Diego Costa! Yeah, Costa just loved playing with Fabregas, didn't he? Yeah, he'd make those runs and Fabregas just clip it over the top for him. Absolute class. Yeah, I think when he was younger, it was more about the, he was so sprightly that he would make those little bursts into the box or close to little give and goes around the danger zone. And he was inventive, wasn't he? He had the eye for a back heel. There was that one back heel, I think, in the North London derby. Muzicki for Fabregas and Adebayor Arsenal have clicked into gate and Adebayor has made Tottenham play again well he might have been at the end yet but that little magician again plays his part and if it wasn't for him the chance is not created it's the one thing about class you can suppress it for a time but you can't forever and this is what this young boy is all about watch his involvement here first a little pass there Muzicki does well but watch this he has to fight off Taino and then he's got the vision to know where Adebayor is he's already got the picture in his head and the little back heel says on you go son put us in the lead he had that in his locker and that I think was part of his useful confidence and as maybe as we all get older we probably all overthink things a little bit maybe he lost a little bit of that that impudence when he got a little bit older and he started to play those longer passes.

19:13But yeah, I mean, brilliant technician. Unreal, really. Just to touch on as well the versatility he had in terms of positioning, that was something that strikes me too. He played in so many different roles for Spain as a false nine. It's a great effect. A deep line playmaker as a number 10. was that something that was quite rare about him something unique about him yeah I think he evolved throughout his career I mean the first we really saw of him for Arsenal he was actually playing on the right of midfield I don't think that was ever going to be his long-term position but it was just Wenger saying look we've got Vieira and Gilberto and we want to get him into the team somewhere and in a way he was kind of Vieira's replacement Wenger didn't think Vieira and Fabregas worked together he thought he needed a more disciplined screening player so he took the decision to to let Vieira go which was incredible considering what a powerhouse he was and and how much he dominated Premier League midfields and so for a while there was Fabregas playing alongside Gilberto and he was obviously very good in that role but I think the best of Fabregas came a little bit later when I think it was 2008-9 he'd had a period out injured and Arsenal had been doing quite well with Song and De Nilsen as the midfield too and when he came back into the team Wenger put him as the number 10 and I think that was where we saw the best of him particularly in the in the period where Van Persie was really upped his game became a top-class striker I think they had a really good relationship and then yeah for Spain it was you know like I say earlier he was different to all the other Spanish midfielders you know he wasn't so keen to play sideways pass he was someone who accelerated the play a little bit and you know in 2012 Spain actually started the tournament with him as the you know as a false nine I'd say and he was constantly coming deep and linking play and that kind of thing but if you actually watch his performance by the final so they tried a few other strikers I think Torres had a go Negredo had a go I think and they went back to Fabregas if you look at his performance in the final he's just a center forward really I mean And he's not dropping deep.

21:20He's not overloading midfield. He's just making runs in behind. So, yeah, he was a bit of, compared to those other Spanish players, I think he was a bit of a loose cannon, but I think sometimes Spain needed that. I think they needed someone to just provide a little bit of magic, a little bit of unpredictability. And actually, I mean, we'll probably come on to speak about this, but even though he wasn't in the core group, if you like, of Spain players that were responsible for those successes, he actually played a really big role in all three of those those wins from 2008 2010 and 2012. Yeah going back to the Vieira issue I spoke to Jeremy Aliadier this morning who played alongside Cesc when he came through so Jeremy was there and this kid comes in he's 16 starts training with the first team and he said look what he's he described as a funky haircut which is really just a terrible mullet wasn't it um he said that at first you just thought he doesn't look like a footballer he didn't look like an athlete it was like who is who's this kid um and then he said in training you couldn't get near him even at 16 he was finding space popping it off thinking a little bit quicker than a lot of the players around him and you just couldn't get the ball off of him and he said after he said it probably took a week or two he said but because obviously Jeremy was friends with you know part of the French sort of clique of Henri and Perez and he said that they were winding Vieira up massively right from the get go saying these kids he's definitely going to send you to retirement mate you've had it because he was just he was just special and I think Patrick probably laughed it off a little bit at first but obviously it did kind of come to pass, not for retirement but eventually he was so good that they also felt they could afford to let Patrick go.

23:18So yeah, it was a nice little insight into what was going on behind the scenes. Well on that, Patrick Vieira goes to Juventus and I think it's the following season though, 2005-06 that Arsenal meet Juve in the Champions League and Fabregas the whole thing's set up particularly in the Italian press there's this Vieira's chance to come back and show Arsenal what they're missing but he and Juventus have played off the part by by young Cesc who's what 19-20 and he has an assist and a goal as Arsenal put the old lady away 2-0 it's a good tackle by Perez on Vieira picked his pocket already plenty of movement ahead of him Cesc Fabregas yes Yes, breakthrough.

24:04And it's the young pretender, Seth Fabregas, who gives Arsenal the lead. So much attention on him in the build-up to this game because of the very presence of Patrick Vieira. And it's Fabregas who's made the breakthrough for Arsenal. And Vieira who lost it. Yeah, I mean, he's lost that game. and it broke into the box to score, broke into the box to square one for Henry, I think. Yeah, it was a majestic performance. It was a sort of, yeah, we're not going to miss you type performance, wasn't it? So yeah, Patrick Vieira would have felt a bit humbled, I think, by that. It was just one of those periods though where that Arsenal team were just so good.

24:51And I think that coming in, the fact that he was even in the conversation to be in the team at that time, 05, 06, where they're so strong, shows how good he was. A little bit like Dowman being in the conversation now to be in and around this Arsenal team. It shows how special he was. But to be a part of that team probably did make it easier for him, but I'm not taking it anything away from his ability. It was just he was surrounded by such quality. And those European nights were very difficult for visiting teams coming to Highbury. They were very, very special nights. So yeah, that was definitely a memorable evening, that one.

25:31Well, Cesc had been surrounded by quality kind of since the start. He was snapped up at age nine by Barcelona, so became part of their La Masia training school. And there's a famous photo of him having a pizza with the Barcelona youth team at the age of 14 in Italy after winning the youth tournament, the Maestrali Cup. and there's him and there's Gerard Piquet and there's Leo Messi, all teammates together. At 16, he decides he's going to leave for Arsenal, supposedly because he felt he wasn't going to get minutes in the senior team because of Xavi, Iniesta, etc. At 16, that's a bold move to decide, yeah, I need minutes.

26:16I'm 16 times a waste thing. And so off he goes to Arsenal, which is a genius bit of scouting, equally by Wenger. Yeah, look, I think Arsenal were well aware of Cesc Fabregas' talent before 16. You know, by this stage, Arsene Wenger stationed numerous scouts around Europe, around the world. And yeah, I think that conversation, it was an opportunist move, wasn't it? because you saw a special group at Barcelona, a special group of midfielders, whereby you think, well, they can't all make it. They can't all get in the team. So, you know, could we potentially take one? And I think, yeah, Arsenal did a bit of work behind the scenes to, yeah, just say that we're interested in him.

27:03But yeah, it was a really bold move from Cesc and very wise, really, for somebody of his age. Obviously, his parents would have had something to do with it. But to walk away from Barcelona, your club, the one you love, at that age, to be aware enough that this is going to be really tough, I think he deserves a lot of credit for the bravery of that move. So, yeah, worked out pretty nicely for him in the end, didn't it? Yeah, and for Arsenal. So the Arsenal team that he joins is about to have its invincible season, 0-3-0-4. He doesn't play in the league in that campaign, but he does play in the League Cup, becoming Arsenal's youngest ever first-team player, making his debut at 16 years and 177 days.

27:48Shortly after that, becoming the youngest goal scorer in Arsenal's history, scoring against Wolves in a later round of the League Cup. And just a phenomenon, age 16, all of this, the following season, now 17. he's already dominating midfields in the Premier League and they're singing he's only 17 he's better than Roy Keane well and the thing that stood out to me about the incredibly young Fabregas was that he was just already the smartest guy on the pitch and it was his brain that was his superpower as technically exceptional as he was it was the fact that he was able to generate these pitches so much more quickly than everyone else and I think there was an interview that James Horncastle did with him in The Athletic recently where he was talking about how he, because he wasn't the fastest, because he wasn't the most athletically gifted, he always needed to know exactly what he was going to do with the ball before it got to him and he's not the only footballer that's ever done that but he's one of the best I've seen certainly in the Premier League at practicing that every minute of every game his balls at 17 though i mean in every sense uh as a teenager lobbing buffet at the most respected figure in our game just extraordinary well i've got to say i wasn't expecting the first pizza reference to be in in the context of gerald piquet and leo messi true enough um but yeah i mean it just does speak to a young man with an enormous amount of confidence and personality 0-4-0-5 ends with the FA Cup, which would be the only major honour he won with Arsenal.

29:29But it also saw that season, the club feel that, yeah, we've got a player good enough to let Pat Vieira go to Juventus. And the big names did begin to go at this point. What with stadium building and all that kind of thing, Adrian. It's not that much later that Thierry Henry makes his way to Barcelona, which must have made Cesc think. Is it from that point that this notion of when will Fabregas make his return to Catalonia begins to start building? Yeah, I think that in an ideal world, Cesc Fabregas would have gone to Barcelona much later in his career, that he would have liked to have stayed at Arsenal for a little bit longer.

30:12but the truth was that the team was not the team that he came into. He came into a glorious team, a team full of winners, brilliant players and individuals, and that team broke up, understandably, around that time. And it was the stadium move, of course, and then the funds were just not there anymore. Arsenal were having to shop in a different pool and the quality of the team declined. And there were some good seasons and good moments, but ultimately the team wasn't a special team anymore. He was a special player within a good team. And that's going to, you feel good about it at first. You probably feel that's why he was named captain at the age of 21, because there were not that many, you know, standout candidates at the time.

31:02But ultimately, as time goes on and you get into your 20s, you know, further into your 20s, you think, well, I've got to win something here. Am I actually going to win anything with this team? And the ultimate truth, the hard truth was no. And that's why he went. And yeah, it was the right decision for him and for his career, wasn't it? In terms of getting silverware. But I think that there'll be a little bit of regret there. I think it was a slightly reluctant one. Yeah, I mean, I think in fairness, Arsenal had two good goes at winning the league when Fabregas was there and a key player. There was a 2007-8 season when they looked very good and they kind of unravelled in that famous game away at Birmingham where Eduardo broke his leg and William Gallas threw a wobbly.

31:48And I think that was after that that Fabregas became captain, wasn't it? And then there was two years later where I think Arsenal were actually top in late March. So that was, again, I kind of remember it through an Arsenal player suffering a broken leg. but that was the season when they won away at Stoke and I think it was the only time they won away at Stoke certainly for a long time on that day when Ramsey got injured and I think they had a good chance to win it at that point as well and maybe one thing we should mention about Fabregas was that his spell at Arsenal was compromised by injuries he had a lot of muscle injuries at that point I think there was one season he played 38 games but otherwise Arsenal were almost thankful if he played 25 games in a league season so I think that did compromise it and he clearly got frustrated by the end and I mean yeah I don't know how how on public record this is but I think a lot of people at Arsenal were quite unimpressed with his attitude in in the latter days at the club he he basically forced a move it was it was almost becoming an annual kind of soap opera whether he would make the move I remember there was fuss in 2010 when Spain won the World Cup and I think was it Pepe Reina was putting a Barcelona a shirt on him and that proved very unpopular and the following season you know arsenal had a had a bit of a situation because fabregas was the captain and he was the symbol of the club but at that point he did want to move um and yeah i mean you asked at the at the top agent you know asked adrian how much of a national legend is he the fact that he only won one fa cup and that was on penalties after i mean arsene were terrible in that 2005 final terrible game It wasn't a classic example of Wenger's Arsenal.

33:36As good as he was, and we're still speaking about him, what, 15 years after he left as a really good Arsenal player. But he played in between the great Arsenal periods. He won't be remembered, I don't think, like Vieira or Erdogan, for example, because they've captained Arsenal to the league title. And of course, it's not just about honours. But I think if people are building their all-time Arsenal 11, he'll be there. but yeah the lack of success in terms of trophies I think does hamper him a bit in that discussion yeah on that attitude that I think that is that is true that you know I do think that that behind the scenes he became did he change a little bit and I think the frustration got the better of him and and and he wasn't the lovely guy maybe that that that you know he was previously because he was just wound up by failing to win stuff.

34:28So in that sense, it was the only decision he could make was to leave because he needed that himself. Mark, are you making the point that if people think of their all-time Arsenal 11 or the legends of the game, that maybe he wouldn't be associated with that? Producer Charlie would this, because he was between the great generations. Producer Charlie's comment that he was Batman for that Arsenal team but Robin for Barcelona and Spain. How much does that hold up? Let's get on to what he did in Spain and with the Spanish next.

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38:09and the very best football writers around. So, Fabric has debuted for Spain in 2006, becoming, as was his wont, the youngest player capped for his nation for 70 years. And through that period that followed, Spain had unprecedented success in 2008, winning the Euros, their first trophy in 44 years. Two years later, winning the World Cup, winning the subsequent Euros in 2012, with Fabregas as Force 9, as you mentioned. But when you think of that team, particularly the first two competitions, I don't know that you think of Fabregas, do you? You think of Xavi and Iesta Busquets, etc. Do you think of Cesc?

38:52No, and that's the thing. And that's why I think he's underrated. So 2008, he's a substitute. He's a bit of an outsider, but he always comes on and makes a difference. So he scores as a substitute in the opener. He scores a winning penalty against Italy in the court finals which is a really big deal with for Spain to get past Italy and then in the semi-finals David Villa who's probably been Spain's best player in the tournament goes off injured and Spain have to reform it and Fabregas comes in and he gets two assists in that semi-final and keeps his place for the final and actually Spain look like a more cohesive team when they're only playing one of Villa and Torres who are great players and actually get on quite well but just in terms of the balance of the team I think they're better when Fabregas comes comes into it 2010 I don't think he starts the game in the tournament but again he's quite decisive including in the in the final where he gets the assist and again this is quite a pattern for Spain that they you know they could they hold the ball for 60 70 minutes and it's often when they brought on players like Fabregas or Llorente or Jesus Navas makes a really big impact in the final that's when they get the drive and the breakthrough and in 2012 as I mentioned earlier he starts the tournament in the team and ends the tournament in the team in between those those two matches he's usually a substitute again but like i said in the final was a really key player going in behind he's involved in the opener and so actually the core of players that we think of as being you know the backbone of that spain team actually a few of them miss a tournament so busquets wasn't around for year 2008 javi alonso was only a substitute for for 2008 torres gets you know Torres is not fit by 2010 and barely contributes and isn't at his best in 2012.

40:36V and Puyol miss 2012. So actually, it's only really Xavi, Iniesta, I guess Ramos and Casillas, who play a really big part in all three successes. And Fabregas, I think you can add to that. And David Silva is one who drops out of the team in 2010 and is quite unhappy about that. So even, you know, Fabregas was almost like the joker. He was like, you know, a slight wild card that you play and he offers something different and he's Spanish, but he's also got this different side to him because he's a Premier League player, because he's played at Arsenal under Wenger, who gives his players so much freedom compared to what the Barcelona players are like.

41:11So, yeah, I think he was a really important part of that Spanish generation. It's broken for Fabregas. Now it's in the Enster. This is it. That's the goal. Spain have surely won the World Cup. Yeah, completely agree with that assessment. And it goes to show that you don't have to be a starter. You don't have to be that guy that's remembered in that famous starting 11 to make the difference. He made the difference in a lot of big matches come off the bench. And I think that Spain team just needed a bit of thrust every now and again, whether that was like a little bit of a movement into the box, someone taking up an unusual position, just someone making a run.

41:52That's what he provided for them, which is really different to what he provided for Chelsea in that deeper role, what he provided for Arsenal as more of an orthodox box-to-box midfielder. He did pop up a lot, but from deep. But in this Spain team, he did it from a high position, just using that intelligence that we talked about to go and make the difference in tight matches. So yeah, I think Fabregas' involvement in Spain's glory years is underrated for sure. Because I'm not saying they wouldn't have won it without him, or won those trophies, but he definitely played a big part in it. What about Barcelona then?

42:27In 2011, he finally got his move back to his boyhood club. And it felt like the dream move. Barcelona had just won three straight La Liga titles and two Champions League in three years under Pep Guardiola. Liam, would you say that this move turned out the way that he had hoped? No, I think he was quite a frustrated figure by the end. And I don't think he felt that he was as trusted or as appreciated as maybe he felt he should be at his boyhood club. And I think there was a certain element of misaligned expectations going in because I think Barcelona brought him back with a view to, oh, maybe he can be the long-term successor to Xavi or at the very least he could be the long-term successor to Iniesta.

43:18you know he could he could maybe be one of those two roles when in reality he was neither of those players in part because of what we've discussed with really the the more north south elements to his game the premier league elements to his game the more direct instincts as opposed to the Barcelona lifers as it were and and he ended up being a guy who was used further forward which meant that he was always sometimes in tandem with Messi and it's clear that they really got on not just personally but there was football chemistry between them when they played but positionally they would go into some of the same spaces and you know if you're standing in some of the spaces Messi wants to move into you're not going to be on the pitch for very long so I think that was part of it as well and ultimately he I think he left Spain a bit disillusioned and and wanting to go somewhere where he could feel really central to a team again and he certainly got that at Chelsea yeah I really liked uh the first few weeks when he went to Barcelona it looked really good and there was a period where Guardiola was playing basically a back three, a midfield diamond and a front three.

44:36And Fabregas and Messi were kind of rotating between the number nine and number 10 positions. And they just, I mean, they'd obviously played together when they were kind of young teenagers, but they just picked out where they left off. And the understanding between them, they scored some fantastic goals the first few weeks. I think Fabregas was a really good player for Barcelona against weaker opponents. And I do think they needed that sometimes because everyone was parking the bus against them. sometimes they were a bit predictable and slow i think it was in the bigger games where you know particularly later in the season where i think he was actually taking up a lot of the same spaces as iniesta as well they were starting to play iniesta from the left he was coming inside that was kind of fabregas's zone and i remember guardiola describing him i'm not 100 % sure the word i think he described something like anarchic in the sense that guardiola was used to having complete control over all of his players and fabregas had played for what seven eight years under Wenger who was a bit more like yeah go on go out and do your thing and I don't think Guardiola quite appreciated that in the way that for example Del Bosque did with Spain Del Bosque was a bit more laissez-faire but yeah it didn't really work out it was quite underwarming for you know for a move that had been kind of rumored every summer for like three or four years when it actually happened it was it was quite disappointing and Guardiola only stuck around for one season after Fabregas joined I think in hindsight he probably feels he should have left that summer in 2011 on a high and then there's the period under the late Tito Villanova which was quite you know Villanova misses some of the season because he's you know it's the start of his illness and then the next season Gerardo Martino comes in and it's all a bit confused there's no real grand plan with Barcelona and then of course Fabregas leaves in in 2014 and that's when Luis Enrique comes in and they win the Champions League so to a certain extent it's the same point as what I said about Arsenal he's he's there between two great Barcelona sides and in fairness I don't think that's all his fault he is he was a slightly different player and I think you know when you've got Xavi and you've got Iniesta and you've got Messi as well it was just a little bit hard to fit him in but he eventually decides that Barcelona is not going to be for him and I think I'm right in saying he was actually quite up for moving back to Arsenal at that stage and actually Arsenal at this point have got Cazorla they've got Ozil and I don't think Wenger was particularly keen to get over the way that Fabregas had acted towards the end of his time there and so of course instead he moves to Chelsea well that interim Barcelona team did manage to win a La Liga title a Copa del Rey a Club World Cup a the UEFA Super Cup and two Spanish Super Cups, in his three years in the Catalan capital.

47:22But as was mentioned, he was growing frustrated in 2013. He was already in talks with Manchester United about joining David Moyes' side. That didn't work out. The following year, he asked the club to release him. They do, Arsenal do have a buyback clause, which they decide not to action. And he joins Jose Mourinho's Chelsea, the Little Horses, in the previous season's Premier League title run. Chelsea up next.

47:59£30 million Chelsea splashed out on Cesc Fabregas in June 2014. Matt Reid says he destroyed any legacy he would have had at Arsenal by downing tools for his last move, but we forgave him for that as it was his boyhood club. But then to move to Chelsea, dead to us, Crikey. Adrian, I don't know if that's your feeling as an Arsenal fan. And equally, Liam, was there any resistance among Chelsea fans at having such an Arsenal-related figure joining your side? I think there was maybe pockets of reticence. You know, you'll always get people within a fan base who are unwilling to overlook past associations.

48:44But I think in the main, there was just more excitement. There was no steward who got fired for shouting, you're Arsenal, you're a snake. There was, but I think that was later. It was later. That was quite a lot later. I think it was actually in the horrific 2015-16 season where everything was going wrong. He was cast as one of the rats. Who got rid of Mourinho. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, fair enough. And he was regarded as a snake at Arsenal. Sorry to interrupt. Lucky he was. The fans did turn on him, definitely. because of that attitude we spoke about. Because they were just, yeah, it just felt like he did down tools to get that move.

49:24And I think when the time came up for the option to go back, Kozola was a big player and the fans loved him. And obviously you had Aaron Ramsey who just had a brilliant season. He started to look like a, you know, at that time, he was looking like a world-class central midfield. It never quite panned out for him. But with him, those two and Ozil, yeah, just felt like, do we need the aggravation? And maybe that attitude that we touched on earlier, where he got a little bit sulky, that came back to bite him there. And that's why Arsenal sort of turned their back on him. But, you know, looking at what he did at Chelsea, again, it kind of worked out right.

50:08A little bit. Four and a half years at the club, he won the Premier League twice and the League Cup, the FA Cup and the Europa League. Anything stand out, Liam Mabatti's debut at Turf Moor for Chelsea? One maybe slightly clippable moment that has been replayed a lot. That pass for Andre Schürrle was, well, absolutely sublime, but also I think a perfect indicator of what was to come from Fabregas' time at Chelsea. Not that he was necessarily playing that type of pass in every game, but just that vision. if you wanted anything to sum up what he would bring to Chelsea. And he hadn't even played a game when Mourinho was striking a very kind of bullish, even for him, tone in that pre-season because I think he felt that Chelsea had added the missing pieces in Diego Costa and Fabregas in particular and getting Thibaut Courtois back.

51:06And he said specifically about Fabregas and Costa that they'd added a new dimension to his Chelsea team. And I think that assist for Schürrle was as effective as anything at immediately hammering home exactly the dimension that he'd added because there was no one else in that Chelsea squad that could have maybe even seen that pass, let alone played it. Hazard finding a way through. Savanovic again to try and carve out a chance for Fabregas. It's brilliant play. It's Schürrle's goal. It's a truly wonderful goal for Chelsea. And having been 1-0 down, even this early, can you say, is this the response of future champions?

51:49Eden Hazard has done subsequent interviews where he's referred to Fabregas as the master. And he also did a thing with France football where he had to take bits of players that he admired. And he took game vision from Fabregas. He said he's got the best game vision of anyone I've played with. He said, if I had his game vision, I'd be up here, significantly taller than Mr. Hazard's head. Which part would you take, if you were doing a reverse of that, which part would you take from Eden Hazard for your ideal player? You know, an underrated part of Eden Hazard is his backside. Well, I was going to say that's quite rated, I think.

52:26Well, it's not necessarily cited in these types of take one bit from each. you might take his eye or his instep or something. His backside, I think, did a lot of heavy lifting in the Premier League. It did. Chelsea that season with Diogo Costa and Cesc Fabregas, were Premier League leaders from the first till the last day of the season? That had never been done before. How much of that was Fabregas? I think it's almost a season of two halves for Chelsea. They were fantastic before Christmas. I mean, played brilliant, brilliant football. probably better football than most people would think of when they think of Mourinho's Chelsea and that was when Fabregas was largely playing deeper alongside Matic so it's quite a forward thinking team usually got Oscar as the number 10 in that and Fabregas is playing some great passes from deep after Christmas they slow down a bit and Mourinho reformats and he usually uses Ramirez alongside Matic and Fabregas is is more of the number 10 and kind of almost counterintuitively I think by playing high, he's actually less creative.

53:31He gets on the ball a little bit less. So it's a bit of a shame that they didn't sustain the form before Christmas until the end of the season. But yeah, he's, I mean, they're a much better team than the previous year. And he's got a great relationship with Costa, as we mentioned earlier. So yeah, he's a really big part of it. And yeah, particularly before Christmas. I mean, I remember being at the first game that they lost, which was away at Newcastle in, I think, early December. but going into that game there had been some some chat like maybe Chelsea could go unbeaten this season which is always a you know is often on the cards is often discussed but I think people really did think that that could happen that season because it wasn't a particularly strong Premier League I don't think in that year and Chelsea looked really really good team yeah and and in a way he came in for Lampard didn't he that was the first season I think Lampard had just gone to City as well.

54:22So filling that void, particularly when he's playing a little bit further up maybe, was perfect for Chelsea. So yeah, that was a good team. Very good team. Well, what was quite interesting as well was that he did directly nominally replace Lampard in the team, but Lampard himself was someone who had been a much more forward-thinking midfielder, who in his last years at Chelsea had become part of a double pivot as his maybe up and down athleticism had waned slightly. And that's what made the Fabregas signing interesting in another sense as well, because he'd always been this technical creative eight slash 10.

55:03And Chelsea were asking him, at least initially, as Michael says, to be more of a six next to Matic, to be the deep line creator they'd previously tried to get Luka Modric to play that role and famously failed before he went to Real Madrid so it was kind of asking Fabregas to recast himself in English football and I think he did an exceptional job of that and having Matic next to him really helped because Matic was able to get through a lot of the defensive work Oscar was also a really defensively diligent, industrious number 10. So he had protection. But Chelsea came alive that season whenever the ball was at Fabregas' feet, really.

55:46He was the guy that made the team tick. So the following season is the Mourinho departure. And then Antonio Conte arrives and another league title comes with him, Michael. Yeah, I really enjoyed that relationship between Conte and Fabregas. because at the start of the season, Conte is just not at all convinced. He wants two really solid players in front of the back four. And Fabregas barely plays first 15 games of the season or so. And it's clear that Conte almost just gets worn down by how good Fabregas is. He's just so brilliant on the ball that he just has to find a role for him. And the only role that he can find because it's, you know, Chelsea basically win the league after Conte switches to 3-4-3.

56:30and he can't play in the attacking section because he would be an inside left and that's where Hazard is. So he has to play really alongside Kante in the deeper midfield roles, which makes Chelsea a little bit more open than Kante would want. But actually he plays some really key passes in that season, provides some really big contributions. And I think you do get that sometimes, you do just get a player. I mean, it's a bit like Zidane at Juventus, he completely changes Ancelotti's philosophy. Ancelotti wants to be really strict, you know, with the 4-4-2. And then Zidane is so talented, he has to find a place for him as a number 10.

57:07It's almost like, to a lesser extent, Fabregas does the same with Conte. And yeah, I think Conte probably wanted him gone, to be honest. I think Oscar leaves midway through that season. I wouldn't be surprised if Conte was kind of intending to move Fabregas on. But he's so good, you've got to get him in the team somehow. I think early in that season, Conte did actually tell Fabregas, maybe you should go somewhere else or he was at least very honest with him that you're not going to play very much with me with the style of team that I'm building certainly once he'd switched to that 3-4-3 because Matic-Kante was the pairing that he was envisioning and that pairing did start a lot of games but Fabregas as Michael says it made an impact pretty much every single time that he came off the bench and he led that Chelsea squad in assists despite the fact that half of his appearances in the Premier League that season were as a substitute.

58:01And I think the most memorable moment was actually the game that Chelsea won during that 13-game winning streak against Manchester City at the Etihad, where they won 3-1, having trailed 1-0 and been dominated for an hour. Still one of the best games I've ever covered live, because both The teams were actually really, really good. And Fabregas changed the game. He came off the bench when Chelsea needed a goal and hit one of those quarterback-style passes for Diego Costa to equalise. And the whole momentum shifted. And that was the role that he had in that team. And I think what was impressive was that he didn't sulk when Conte said that to him early in the season.

58:47He kind of knuckled down and proved him wrong in the long run.

58:55Fabregas, with the quality of the eyes at handball by Costa. Oh, he's going to be quiet this time.

59:03Fabregas, back in the team, opens City up. And Diego Costa did the rest. What happened after that, though? With Fabregas at Chelsea? Yeah, with Mauricio Sarri. Things start to wind down pretty quickly for him there. Is that right? Yeah, so I think in Conte's second season, Fabregas' influence waned a little bit. There were signs as well that athletically, he was already a more limited figure in his Chelsea stint than he had been at Arsenal. you can't forget just how many minutes Fabregas played from such an early age and I think the fact that he was still able to be so impactful is testament to his brain and his technique more than his his body really but it was pretty obvious by the time Sarri came in that he was coming to an end and then Chelsea signed Jorginho they already had Kovacic of course kante was still there so the the midfield was being actively remodeled for a post fabregas era and i think at that point he realized as much and and didn't want to stick around and ended up going to monaco yeah i mean like liam says he played a lot of football um throughout his teenage years in his 20s and his spain career is pretty much done by 29 like after euro 2016 which is kind of their second failure they they you know got knocked out of the group stage in 2014 2016 they're beaten by i think a relatively limited italy team who were brilliantly coached actually by antonio conte um and that's it for fabregas and it does end it's a funny one because obviously we've spoken about what a great football brain he is and he wasn't quick and he he didn't necessarily have that mobility and yet at the same time he still does look quite knackered it's not like he's a kind of Luca Modric figure who plays on until he's 40 because he's never depended on face he actually looks really quite sluggish and yeah it's it's not unusual uh you know I'm sure we're going to speak about him being a coach but in a way it's a bit like Guardiola I mean Guardiola was was that kind of figure who didn't at all depend on physicality but at the top level was really done by the age of 30 and then focuses on becoming a coach and that's basically what Fabregas does as well.

1:01:25Well, the move to Monaco with Thierry Henry came in 2019. In 2022, he surprised most people, I think, by joining a second-tier team in Italy, a team in such a rudimentary state that apparently he had to get changed in a bar before training, that kind of side, which all seemed pretty strange. The club was Como, but it turned out there was a very good reason for it.

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1:05:47sides as a manager looks like it's all really come together well he's joined como in 2022 they're on their rise up through the divisions in italy at that point they were in the second tier he plays for a season and then takes over as the uh youth the primavera manager but within a couple of months is promoted to first team manager a role that for reasons of UEFA badges he ends up filling alongside the Welshman a former Wales assistant Ocean Roberts in 2024 within a season that season effectively they get promotion to Serie A they then keep Como up for the first time in 30 years that they managed to do that and now 2026 reminder that he joined in 2022 when they in Serie B, they are in the Champions League and he is the reigning Serie A manager of the year.

1:06:44For all his exploits as a player, this is comparable, what he's doing on the bench. Yeah, and I think it's interesting. I mean, you mentioned the lack of positional sense, James, as a player. And that's the thing that I find really interesting because I remember being at a Chelsea game, I think it was 2014-15, and it's one of those games where he's playing alongside Matic. It was at Stamford Bridge, I can't remember who it was against, but as the opposition were going to kick off to start the match. I just remember Matic screaming at Fabregas to just drop alongside him because Fabregas is like 10 or 15 yards out of the pitch.

1:07:17I remember thinking, this is the kickoff and he's already kind of out of position and one of his teammates is screaming at him. So the idea that he'd become, you know, a top level manager at a time when I think management, you know, these days is almost like positional sense. Getting players in position is the main thing. It is a bit of a surprise, despite the fact that he's got such a good football brain in other aspects I think he's got a really good coaching team there I think he you know he's one of these he the other coaches do a lot of the coaching work on the training on the training ground Fabregas certainly is involved in that but I think he knows there may be limitations in his in his coaching at this young age I think he has like you say James he's picked the right club and I think sometimes these days it's quite difficult to judge managers and how good they are when that manager's at a good club you know a well-run club that is coming up through the leagues a bit like at Brighton you know I don't know if Graham Potter did a good job I don't know if De Zerbi did a good job or if they just happen to join the right club that is up really mobile and they're kind of along for the ride I think he's very promising but I think you know the amount of money being invested in Como the scouting network they've got there I mean the caliber of players they had when they were first in the first in Serie A was way beyond what a newly promoted team would usually count on.

1:08:35So yeah, he's certainly one to watch but I think at the moment until we see him with a different club, it's probably quite difficult to judge quite how good a coach he is. It'll be interesting to see when we will see him with another club. He's commented about his unique situation at Como having gone there. He was introduced to the club by Darren Dean, the son of David Dean who was of course helping to run Arsenal in his time as a player there. He owns, has a minority share in the club, is involved apparently in all the club's decision-making, particularly regarding player signings. And Fabregas says that I know that what I have here probably I will never have anywhere else because wherever I go after I will be a head coach.

1:09:17Here it is much more than that. This week there's been a lot of talk about a clause in his Como contract. having turned down a move to Inter a year and a half ago to stay at Como, that there is a clause in his contract that would enable him to walk away, but only to a couple of very specific clubs, Liam, clubs in London and Catalonia. Right. Did this clause include Chelsea or is it just Arsenal and Barcelona? Well, I've seen it mentioned as a Chelsea clause in Chelsea-related publications and an Arsenal clause. it's an eye of the beholder clause I don't know I've not read the clause and I suspect most people haven't but it's being talked up and it's going to be a while at least according to the length of their contracts before Arteta or Xavi Alonso or indeed Hansi Flick is vacating those positions but how appetising and prospect would that be?

1:10:17Michael's jury is very much out on Cesc What would Cesc Fabregas bring in terms of his management? I mean, I think from a Chelsea perspective, he's someone that would have a lot of appeal. And before they went for Xabi Alonso, I was actually thinking that he might be the smartest way for Bluco to go. Because not only did they need a young, well, not necessarily a young. There's a lot of youth at Stamford Bridge. They needed a rising coach with fresh ideas, but they also needed, at that time, it felt like they needed someone who had a bit more cachet with the fans. Now, as it's turned out, I think there's been enough intrigue about Xabi Alonso, his achievements at Leverkusen, his status in the game, that that hasn't been as much of an issue with him coming in to Chelsea.

1:11:11But Fabregas would have come in with the love of that fan base. they still sing his name even though he was there for five years, not as long as he was at Arsenal the successes that he was a part of the way that the relationship that I think he built with the fans the 2015-16 season aside, it endures that affection is absolutely there and he would come in with a really really high approval rating but equally it's easy to see why he's not in a rush because of everything you've said about his situation at Como and what he enjoys you wouldn't be in a hurry to to sacrifice that and I think as Michael said that a big part of the success of coaching is picking the right jobs at the right time you don't always get the luxury to do it but right now he has the luxury of of going at his pace and and assessing his options and that's clearly what he's doing.

1:12:09Michael loads of factors in Como's rise no doubt but in terms of Cesc's football what makes it successful what makes it stand out? I think they play quite slick passing football they build up very well from the back I think probably the most distinctive feature of Fabregas's Como team is the way they take goal kicks so they've had various different routines on this but at its most extreme they have this bizarre approach where the two centre-backs almost stand on the corners of the box the other eight outfielders are almost on the halfway line and then the goalkeeper and the two centre-backs play almost a three versus two work the ball forward and then one of the centre-backs has got about 40 yards to drive forward on the ball he's certainly doing some interesting things I think in general it's quite fluid in midfield I think they usually use two holding midfielders but they're not really holding midfield as they rotate positions and venture forward a lot which is in keeping with how we speak about Fabregas when he used to play that deep position um it's obviously a very multinational side I mean if you know I don't think they had an Italian player last season at all I think I'm right in saying um and Fabregas speaks to the players in English which I find quite interesting um I'm not sure how good his Italian is but he speaks Spanish and French and Catalan as well so a little bit like Arteta who's fantastic linguistically uh he's got that he's clearly able to communicate with players more over the world yeah he is an interesting manager I mean I probably sound a bit too cynical earlier when I said I don't know how good a coach he is I've certainly enjoyed watching his teams but uh yeah I just think the Como project I mean they're owned by two of the richest people in the world and the richest owners in Syria and I think their their progression is primarily because the players they've got in but they're certainly doing some interesting things in terms of the tactics as well.

1:13:58Of course Adrian he was managing at the Emirates only this summer in that pre-season friendly. Yeah I was at the game and I watched him quite intently really because he was standing right in front of me and I mean he looks the part it was very cool and dapper and you know and whatnot he looks like a modern manager but what struck me about him in that game and obviously it's only a pre-season friendly was how communicative he is with the players like he was on them, like really on them in terms of raising the standards. Because Como played well in the game. They played some really good stuff. Those goal kicks really stood out.

1:14:35But he was not happy. He was seeking a higher standard in almost everything that they were doing in the game. And to my eyes, they were playing really well. So that really struck me that he's a guy that's not just going to settle for being okay or being good. He wants to really push the boundary. So, yeah, obviously it's only watching someone's body language and the way that they coach, but I was quite impressed with how active he was in the technical area and I was impressed with the football that they played. So, yeah, I think Arsenal fans, obviously there's a great hope that Mikel Arteta will be there for the long, long term, create another dynasty like Arsene Wenger did.

1:15:19But if you're to canvas opinion at the moment, I mean, despite the way he left Arsenal, if that job ever became available, I think he would be favourite. Well, managerially speaking, he's passed every test so far, achieving promotion from the second division, getting Como into the Champions League in such a short space of time then. And then this season, I mean, so far at least, doing brilliantly, not just in that competition, but also in Serie A as well. So look forward to seeing what next from the wonderful Cesc Fabregas. That's it, though, for today's show. We should give you the answer to our quiz question.

1:15:57You'll recall we mentioned the PFA Young Player of the Year Award, which in its 53-year history has only been won by six players from outside the British Isles. Cesc is one. We named two others in Cristiano Ronaldo and Ian Hazard. That left three. Well, you mentioned an Australian. That would be Harry Kuehl, wouldn't it? Correct, Liam. Then there's the Frenchman and the German. Go on, Michael. Michael's the quiz. He's the quiz, man. I'm fairly sure the German is Leroy Sané. The Frenchman, I... It feels like it should be Vieira, but he was maybe a bit too old, so I think it's Enelka. You'd be very right, Michael.

1:16:39Adrian, you should have got that. Yeah. I was about to say it, yeah, but, you know. Well, many thanks to all three of you for being with us today. thanks as well to producers Charlie and Jesse if you fancy other retro listens we've got loads of other Totally Extras out there already and there'll be plenty of fresh new Totally Football shows up soon as well so I hope you'll be with us again before too long for now from all of us here it's goodbye

1:17:08you've been listening to the Totally Football Show part of the Athletic FC podcast network for more great podcasts just like this one including the Athletic FC and our dedicated club podcasts search for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. We're also at The Totally Football Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

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