Totally Extra: Derby County 2007/08

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3:09James Richardson: The Athletic FC

3:17Charlie Eccleshare: Totally extra. Today, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Actually, just that last part, because it was Derby County 07-08. Now they've become a myth, a spook story that managers tell their kids at night. But how bad was it that year at Pride Park, and why? We look back at the team that took it all the way to XI and ask, will there ever be another side like it? Plus, we check out some of the other names to plumb the Premier League's depths, all in this Totally Extra.

3:51Charlie Eccleshare: Hello there, listener. It's Thursday the 25th of September, as we record, but nice that you've availed yourself of the opportunity to listen to this really whenever you like, because it's a Totally Extra, just having a bit of a ramble on stuff from the past. Duncan Alexander's here. Hi, Duncan. Hello. Hello to you. Charlie Eccleshire as well. Hello. Hello, Charlie. And a very big welcome to Stuart James. Hello. Stuart, thank you so much for joining us on this Totally Extra. Pleasure. Totally Extra, we usually celebrate some glory from the past. Today, a very different approach to misquote Donald Fagan.

4:24Charlie Eccleshare: They got a podcast for the winners of the world. I want one when I lose. And this is that podcast. we're going to be talking about the team they call the worst team ever and you are the ideal person to have with us on this journey because you're actually connected to kind of three of the all-time worst Premier League sides, no?

4:43Stuart James: Hmm.

4:44Charlie Eccleshare: Well, you covered that derby for the Guardian, the 07-08 iteration. You also did Southampton last year for the Athletic.

4:54Stuart James: A little bit of Southampton, yes, radically. and Swindon Town obviously going further back when I was a second-year apprentice there during the season when they famously conceded 100 goals on the final day. Not 100 goals on the final day.

5:11Charlie Eccleshare: You wouldn't put it past them, to be fair. That, I should stress, was not your fault because you were an apprentice. You did make it on the field for Swindon, didn't you, that year?

5:22Stuart James: I was playing in the reserves that season. as good as it got for me it was the following season James in the greatest competition far better than the Club World Cup the Anglo-Italian Cup and I was a substitute against Venezia so an unused sub I was actually arguing about this with my son the other day he was claiming that counts as a debut and I said it definitely doesn't you have to get on the pitch and in the match programme a few weeks later on the reserves header, someone had put, you know, Stu James made his debut. And I said, I definitely didn't. You have to be on the pitch to make your debut.

5:59Stuart James: Duncan Alexander would be the voice of reason on that. But yeah, that's how I see it anyway.

6:03Duncan Alexander: It's sad, but true. I mean, it's nice that your son was trying to sort of big you up there. But yeah, he's massively wronged. So was that game away? That was away.

6:13Stuart James: You have to get on a little boat kind of ferry to... The pen zone.

6:17Charlie Eccleshare: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing ground.

6:19Stuart James: Yeah, quite an experience that. I mean, at the age of 19, like, you know, most things in life then, you didn't appreciate it at all. And little did I know that was the highlight of my career that evening, James, really. Wow. Hoping John Gorman would put me on. I think he actually put a goalie on outfield instead at some point. I was having my mind. So, I mean, yeah, there you are.

6:40Charlie Eccleshare: Excellent. Well, so glad you could join us today as we look at Derby. We're also going to be checking out some of the other worst ever's, worst ever goal drought, probably worst ever manager, I think, later on. but this very much the worst ever edition of Totally Extra, I think you would call it. And also, Duncan, you're going to be giving us a quiz question and an answer, perhaps.

7:01Duncan Alexander: Yeah, possibly both, yeah.

7:02Charlie Eccleshare: Do you want to spring the question on us now?

7:04Duncan Alexander: Yes, we're thinking about the past today, so I want to know of teams that only played in the Premier League in the 90s, so they haven't played in it since, who lost the most games?

7:17Charlie Eccleshare: Teams that never featured in the Premier League after the turn of the millennium.

7:22James Richardson: My instinct would be Oldham, but I'm not committing to that. But they had, what, two seasons of struggle? Okay, one to mull over during the show.

7:35Charlie Eccleshare: It's a bit of a downer, isn't it? We'll get the answer later on. Get the answer later on. Also today, as we like to do on A Totally Extra, we open up the almanac and see what this week in football has brought us throughout the years.

7:54Charlie Eccleshare: So we're recording this on Chex Notes, the 25th of September, this week in football history. Big one for Arsenal. You had Ian Wright signing for them in 1991 for a club record fee of, place his finger in corner of mouth, £2.5 million. This was also the week in 1996 that Arsene Wenger took over the Gunners. 2007, this is a nice one. Portsmouth and Reading this week set a new record for the highest scoring Premier League game ever. How many goals, Duncan? 11. Yep. 7-4. 7-4 for Pompey. Remarkable. And David James saved a penalty as well, so, you know.

8:35James Richardson: Comes to Shorey. Oh, deflected in! Amazing! It's the 11th goal of this incredible game.

8:46Duncan Alexander: I'm running out of fingers here.

8:49Charlie Eccleshare: Raw's boss Steve Coppell took the positives. I don't think many teams will come to Fratton Park this season in school four, he said. That's great. Job well done.

8:57Duncan Alexander: I mean, notable that it was in the 2007-08 season. Yeah, it's so true. A very pivotal point in English football history.

9:04Charlie Eccleshare: Yeah. Reading with the goals that day. A couple of seasons later, curiously, they were involved in a game that's regularly cited as the worst game in Premier League history, the 0-0 with QPR, which ended goal and both teams got relegated at the final whistle, which is, yeah, tough to beat. Also this week in football history from 2008, Joe Kinnear had his first press conference as Newcastle's new manager. Did it go well? Er... All right, who's the front, Simon Booth? Me. Who? You're a ****.

9:36Stuart James: OK, I'll tell you to your face. All right. Niall Hickman.

9:40Duncan Alexander: Sweet. You're a **** out of order. Absolutely a **** out of order. You are. and if you do it again, it's only no, I couldn't go to another ground. I will not come and stand for that f***ing threat.

9:53Charlie Eccleshare: Wow. It is the sweariest press conference ever. In the first six minutes, Producer Charlie says Kinnear averages, I couldn't listen to all of it, but Producer Charlie did, Kinnear averages a swear word every six seconds. Is that an exaggeration, Producer Charlie? Genuinely true. Good Lord. Worst press conference ever, I think, hands down.

10:14James Richardson: Yeah, I do feel like this period that we're talking, I mean, this is obviously a year later, but you know, 2008, 2007, you know, I just feel like football, but I mean, I think it was such a sweet spot of, it was like becoming a bit more professional, whatever, but it still had these like absolutely insane things happening. And I met like in the 06, 07 season, there was the West Ham Spurs game, which I think was like one of the best Premier League games ever again in this sweet spot. And this Kinnear thing was just utterly crazy. The Staltieri game. Yeah.

10:44Charlie Eccleshare: Why? Why was that so special?

10:47James Richardson: It was just like two... It's the kind of idealised nostalgic version of what the Premier League used to be. It was just like two slightly madcap teams, loads of attacking, Leeds changing hands, Tevez scored his first goal for West Ham, last minute winner by a player who never scored goals. It just all feels a bit mad and chaotic.

11:10Duncan Alexander: Also, I think that period is when you have people first going on Facebook, and then they first started on Twitter, and the very idea of almost popularising mad stuff into something that became really shareable and reflected well on you if you made it popular. We're in a nascent point here.

11:27James Richardson: Yes, now Terry became a sort of cult hero.

11:31Charlie Eccleshare: Magnificent. As briefly did Joe Kinnear, he wasn't that long for the position, surprisingly, after that heartwarming start.

11:41Duncan Alexander: Yeah, but he then came back as, was it Director of Football in 2013? At Newcastle. Yeah, and that was when he did the talk sport kind of rant. Remember the Johan Kebab? Oh, yeah.

11:53James Richardson: I mean, wasn't he quite unwell by that time? Possibly. I think he was, yeah. I mean, that also, that start of that season, Newcastle then got relegated of 08-09. So, you know, he really kind of contributed to that too.

12:07Charlie Eccleshare: Well, they had a part to play in the season we're going to be looking at. Derby County 2007-2008. Away we go with that next. This is the Totley Football Show with James Richardson,

12:18James Richardson: part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network.

12:25James Richardson: Derby County are heading for the premiership. Billy Davis' boys have done it. Here's Oakley with a chance for Derby and he scores.

12:36Stuart James: At Oakley

12:37James Richardson: The first goal back in the Premier League That's Adibayor

12:42Duncan Alexander: Great chest trap Adibayor on a hat-trick And gets it Oh Todd

12:50James Richardson: Has led in Torres It's six Liverpool rampant Derby humiliated Derby County have parted company With their manager Billy Davis It follows Saturday's 2-0 home defeat

13:04Charlie Eccleshare: by Chelsea and a poor run of form, which has seen the Premier League's bottom side win just one of their 14 league games and pick up only six points. I'm absolutely delighted and excited to be here. I'm really looking forward to the challenge. People talk about the January window and you have to strengthen. You have to be careful at times

13:23James Richardson: who you bring in. Is this the hat-trick? It should be. It is.

13:33Charlie Eccleshare: and Derby fans know they'll be playing championship football next season

13:38James Richardson: well Paul the season's over is it good riddance to that campaign yeah it's been a horrific time isn't it as far as the football club's been concerned team's not good enough majority of

13:48Charlie Eccleshare: them are fired my way won't play for Derby again there you go the Rams when they hit rock bottom 2007-2008 were they the worst Premier League team ever why were they so bad will there ever be a team born that will be worse than Derby County 2007-2008 big big questions should we get some facts first of all Duncan what are the numbers that say that they are the Nadir

14:15Duncan Alexander: well they had a 32 game winless streak which for me is poor they failed to score in 22 games which is more than any other team in Premier League history. They lost by five goals in five games, which was beaten by Sheffield United in 2023-24. Obviously, the fewest points, the 11 points of that, I feel, will never get beaten.

14:39Charlie Eccleshare: So assuming three points for a win, kind of extrapolating that into the past, it's not just a Premier League, that's the worst in top-fly history.

14:46Duncan Alexander: Yeah, I think there's a Darwin team in their short-lived league career where they were almost as bad, but there were fewer games back in those days and essentially, you know, it wasn't as professionalised as Derby should have been in 2007-08. And I think they won one game. I think that's the thing. To go through an entire season and win one match, you know, that's never beaten.

15:08James Richardson: And that match is sort of immortalised, isn't it? You know, the 1-0 against Newcastle. A drop of middle! What a way to start this Derby career! Kenny Miller out of very little indeed and I'm up for my goal made to Derby Celtic when you think of Newcastle around that time that's one of the things that they're best remembered for

15:33Charlie Eccleshare: match day six of the competition more facts about that Derby season their top scorer was Kenny Miller he got four the highest joint highest scorer at Pride Park was Emmanuel Adebayor which is nice except he played for Arsenal in fact he became that yeah home and away he's still the only player to ever have hat-tricks home and away in the same season against the same opponent but a lot of things happened for the first and so far last time to people who were playing that derby side anyway we'll talk about the other candidates for worst ever and how they match up but first shall we begin the dramatic story of that derby with the day they came up

16:28Charlie Eccleshare: Wow wild celebrations at Wembley 28th of May this was 2007 Derby County have just beaten West Brom in the playoff final and they've been promoted to the Premier League after six seasons away. Stuart you were there I think that day.

16:43Stuart James: I was there that day it was an absolutely terrible game against West Brom dreadful I remember my old editor at the Guardian Ben Clissett um saying beforehand how many pieces they want and at the end of the game he said I think one piece is too many on that match crikey it was awful um and the strange thing afterwards was that and this was classic Billy Davis really obviously it was a fantastic day for Derby no matter how bad the game was they managed to win they were back in the Premier League and then Billy turned it into a story about him and afterwards in the press conference basically from nowhere just said I'm not sure whether I'm going to be here next season and then that narrative kind of rumbled on all through the summer he was having a running battle with the board over anything and everything including trying to get the number two David Kelly who he wanted there so they went into the season with a lot of negativity around them and they were, you know, players have said since Matt Oakley, who was the captain for the first half of that season, has said that they knew before a ball had been kicked that they were not up to the level to play in the league.

17:45Stuart James: They were punching above their weight when in promotion, really. Of course, ironically, I think I'm right in saying, aren't I, Duncan? I think they drew on the opening day. They were seventh after the opening day.

17:55Charlie Eccleshare: Good time. Something's building down at Darwin. You mentioned the board, because Billy Davis has subsequently said that the reason that he made those comments after the playoff win was that he knew that the club was supposedly being taken over and that as such there was somebody else lined up by the new owners to take over. But that kind of fed into that perfect storm of awfulness that summer because they'd gone up too early. The plan was to go up and build in the championship and solidify. But they went up almost to the first attempt, I think. But they had a board that, because they thought that they were selling the club, didn't want to spend any money.

18:31Charlie Eccleshare: So the total spend that summer was, what,£10 million?

18:33Stuart James: Yeah, and I think Kenny Miller at£3 million was the record signing that summer. And the players they were signing were championship players. I was there that night, was it a claim to fame or not, the Newcastle night, when Kenny Miller upstaged Michael Owen and scored the goal that gave them their only win of the season. But nobody after that was thinking, oh, maybe they might be OK. They'd got one point from the first five games, they conceded 15 goals, and they were being, and some of the players have spoken about this. And John Moncur actually, Swindon, talked about it after the Derby situation too and what it felt like.

19:10Stuart James: They were kind of being ridiculed by TV analysts. So it wasn't just, look at the goals Derby conceded at Anfield. It was kind of mocking them as well because they were that bad. So, yeah, a catalogue of things really that sort of fed into that. You know, some strange quotes from the players at the time. I remember Tyrone Mears saying that, you know, we were in awe of Anfield, the cop and everything. Almost like they were a League 2 team or a non-league team going there for an FA Cup game. So, yeah, the team was hopelessly out of its depth. And the sideshow with Billy Davis didn't help things either.

19:43Charlie Eccleshare: That trip to Anfield was on Match Day 5. And already by that point, by Match Day 5, bookmakers Paddy Parrott had promised to pay out on Derby going down in one of those kind of promotional gambits. If they failed to win, that was at Liverpool. And they probably went there and lost 6-0. Duncan, you were also there the following weekend when they did actually get that win against Newcastle.

20:06Duncan Alexander: Yeah, it was a Monday night, I think. And, yeah, I was working for now defunct in the UK sports company, Satanta.

20:14James Richardson: I was going to say I was on Satanta, yeah.

20:16Duncan Alexander: And it was very early in their, you know, brave new world of having. It was obviously only the first time another broadcaster was showing Premier League games. And one of the most important things when you show a football match is to show the goals as they happen. It's what people really enjoy. And they didn't. So they were showing a replay of a Newcastle chance, I think, when Kenny Miller scored. And I can remember the director frantically shouting, camera one, camera one or whatever. And yeah, they cut to it as Derby was celebrating what turned out to be their only winning goal of the entire season.

20:49Duncan Alexander: Their only winning goal of the season. They didn't even make the broadcast.

20:52James Richardson: Did someone reassure him? It's like, it's OK, there'll be plenty more Derby wins this season. You know, you've missed one goal. Yeah, this is Kenny Miller.

20:58Duncan Alexander: he's going to get at least four goals this season.

21:01Charlie Eccleshare: Well, they wouldn't win again in a league match for almost a year. Next game in this season, they were back to bread and butter, losing 5-0 to Arsenal. Sue, you mentioned the number of big beatings that they received, but it wasn't just...

21:15James Richardson: I was at that game.

21:16Charlie Eccleshare: Oh, you were at that game.

21:17James Richardson: I've got to see that Derby team in the flesh. Everyone was flocking to see them, to get a glimpse of this all-conquering team. I mean, yeah, I guess they went into that game off the back of a win. But yeah, Abu Dhabi scored a wonder goal very early and it kind of unraveled for them. But yeah, Liverpool had gone one better a couple of games earlier.

21:36Charlie Eccleshare: But the big clubs beating them, I guess there's one thing. It was the fact that they were losing 5-0 against West Ham, beaten 4-0 by Reading, who were another team very much in the relegation scrap, 5-1 by Birmingham. You were, as we mentioned, Stu, you were covering Derby for the Guardian for part of that season. And then at a certain point, am I right? Did they say, listen, it's not worth it, they're done, leave them?

21:59Stuart James: They kind of lost all interest in it. I mean, Derby were that bad. It was almost like go somewhere else to watch a game on a weekend. And I think in fairness at the time, Villa were probably going pretty well under Martin O 'Neill. And yeah, the narrative was kind of set that Derby were going to go down. And actually the players, obviously they couldn't come out and say that, but they've said that since. There's a really good quote from Matt Oakley, which he talked about a few years ago when we did a piece, looking at the teams that have really struggled. And he says, and I think we all, whatever level of football we would have played at, we all would have experienced this at some point when you shake hands with the opposition before the game.

22:34Stuart James: And he says, the worst thing is, as a player, you're looking at the opposition and they know. You go to shake hands as captain, you're looking at him and he's thinking, this could be four or five today. And he said, that ain't a nice place to be. And so I think they just almost, in a really bleak, defeatist way, kind of accepted their fate very early on. that season.

22:56Duncan Alexander: In a way, did they? Because they did kind of change most of the team in January.

23:01Charlie Eccleshare: Right, and the manager. So November, Billy Davis announces,

23:06Duncan Alexander: drops... We should briefly point out that they climbed off the bottom on October the 20th with a nil-nil at Fulham. Cool. Which took them to five points from five games. The absolute form team of Derbyshire. They went above Bolton, briefly, who had just sacked Sammy Lee. So yeah, there we go. Crikey.

23:25Stuart James: To go back to what you said there, Duncan, I think the players accepted their fate, but ridiculously, the club didn't. And the signings they made that January were absolutely calamitous.

23:35James Richardson: So an amazing array of washed up Premier League.

23:38Charlie Eccleshare: They changed the manager in November, Billy Davis, after tactically opining that this team is not good enough for the Premier League. They know that they're not good enough. Got sacked that day. He was replaced by Paul Jewell, who had had a brilliant record in terms of getting teams out of trouble. Previously, saving both Bradford and Wigan on the last day of Premier League campaigns. He tells a great story about being on his way to Pride Park and getting a phone call from David Moyes telling him not to take the job. As I was driving up there, says Paul, David Moyes called me and he said, are you going to Derby?

24:15Charlie Eccleshare: I said, I'm on the way. I was on the M1, just gone past Junction 36. Moy said, well, get to 37, come off, go around the roundabout and go back home. We played them not so long ago and they won't win another game all season. I just went, yeah, all right, David. Unfortunately, he was right. Was he? Well, poor Jewel, that season totaled 24 games without a single win. That's the most that a manager has ever overseen at a club without winning in the Premier League. Then comes January and Stuart, as you say, in desperation, they kind of sell off the core of the side and bring in Robbie Savage, Danny Mills, Roy Carroll.

24:52Charlie Eccleshare: Lauren Robert. Lauren Robert. I mean, amazing group of ex - Hassan Ghali. Hassan Ghali, yeah. Wow. Robbie Savage is made captain, and the result is four more points in the remaining four months of the season.

25:07James Richardson: I mean, just on what Stu was saying there about that feeling when you know you're going to get hammered or whatever, I think that that is one of the reasons it lives on, because it's very rare you can relate to Premier League footballers or most of us anyway. But there was something very relatable about, oh, my God, you know, they're just in the wrong league. You know, if this was in Power League or Sunday League or something, you just get kicked. You'd are. You'd be like, this is this isn't working. Yeah, exactly. It'd be like this is a complete waste of everyone's time. Well, you might even fold.

25:38James Richardson: I mean, that sometimes happens in Sunday League and then all the points get expunged. It can be quite annoying. But anyway, you know, but they had to carry this on. And it's like, God, how do you stumble along week after week? Like, it's horrible when you're playing teams and they're just loads better than you. And it's embarrassing.

25:57Charlie Eccleshare: What about the fans, Stuart? What about the supporters of Pride Park? They're largely stuck by the club.

26:03Stuart James: Yeah, I think that when you look at fan bases, Derby, Norwich, kind of, somebody who watches a lot of championship football really stand out to me. Their loyalty has been extraordinary over time. And actually, I interviewed Jewel four years ago, and he said he felt that Derby had never recovered from this period. And yet the season tickets would still have been incredibly strong throughout that time. I actually really admired Jewel for taking the call because it was one of those where you're asked, I think Sheffield United was struggling under Wilder at the time, and there was some feeling that they might break the points total, which, as we've said, is never going to happen.

26:38Stuart James: And it's not so bad. If you're doing an interview with someone, a broader interview, and you know at some point you've got to throw in, tell me about Derby, you know, the sh**tiest period of your manager career. And you'll wait for 20 minutes and be a real coward and warm them up. But when actually that's the only thing you want to talk about. And another manager I called on this subject, you know, put the phone down pretty quickly and said, that's the last thing I want to, you know, want to talk to anyone about now. But Jure didn't. He opened up on it all and he did say, like, you know, he thought it completely ruined his career.

27:06Stuart James: Yeah, he shouldn't have taken the job. and yeah he was probably really naive about what he was walking into but he did make some weird decisions like Robbie Savage making him captain straight away okay Matt Oakley had gone who had been the captain but there were experienced figures in that Derby dressing room and you know Savage being Savage it was a matter of time before he was going to start upsetting people he tells a story in his book about this lookalike thing he did where they were all putting pictures on people's lockers you know what they think someone did an afghan hound for him and uh yeah a kind of playful thing that footballers do that most of us in any other walk of life struggle to relate to um anyway he mocked up paul jewel which yeah no went down really really badly um and that's just kind of in keeping with where derby were at during that season really chaos on the field chaos off the field um and they gave him he was 33 they gave him and he writes about this almost quite proudly in but a two-and-a-half-year contract,£23 ,000 a week, no relegation clause, which is just bonkers.

28:10Stuart James: Wow.

28:10Charlie Eccleshare: Paul George says, My managerial career never recovered from it. These days he'd probably get the buy-in job. The football's moved on so much. His prospects may not have been helped, kind of in terms of future appointments, by the story that broke, I think the week before Derby's relegation was confirmed, which came historically early. What was it, March the 20th?

28:33Duncan Alexander: Strangely, they got relegated after a 2-2 draw at home to Fulham. So possibly the last high point of the season.

28:40Charlie Eccleshare: Has there been a slight...

28:42James Richardson: Maybe there's an early one in games terms, wasn't? Huddersfield in 2019, they went down super early. And one of the Sheffield United. Right.

28:50Duncan Alexander: And we should, to Steve's point there about how it broke Derby, we should in a way applaud the fact that they haven't come back because Sheffield United's commitment to being terrible and then going, oh, a couple of seasons later, can we have another go? No.

29:05James Richardson: No, and that definitely does, again, two things that add to the mystique, the fact that they have never been up. They've not won a match since that.

29:12Charlie Eccleshare: Which Mike dropped and laid the stage.

29:15James Richardson: Nice.

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30:53James Richardson: This is the Totally Football Show. part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Olly Kaye and the very best football writers around.

31:08Charlie Eccleshare: Is there a game that sums that season up for Derby County, Charlie?

31:12James Richardson: I think, as you said, they got hammered by a lot of teams. They lost at home 6-0 to Aston Villa and they were already relegated. Six different goal scorers, which just, you know, that chant of who put the ball in the so-and-so net half our f***ing team did for once. It was kind of accurate. And I think Stylian Petro, he scored, and I think his is the goal from miles out, isn't it? Ashley Young, it's a poor clearance from Roy Carroll. Petro!

31:42Charlie Eccleshare: Tremendous finish, but the error from Roy Carroll. It really is a miserable afternoon for the Derby County goalkeeper. After the game, he says, oh, Petro's never done that before. Paul George says, yeah, managers used to say that a lot during the season. If anything could go wrong, it did. Darren Moore, who was in that team, said, I walked down the tunnel at halftime, Gareth Barry of Villa said to me, Darren, how are we 3-0 up? I said, it's been the story of our season, guys. It's heartbreaking, isn't it? But sorry, back to that game, which started badly with Roy Carroll flapping at a set piece and just got progressively worse.

32:17James Richardson: Yeah, I mean, Roy Carroll, Alan Stubbs, Garley Savage, all in that starting 11. Robert Earnshaw came on for them that day. But yeah, I mean, just, you know, everyone was just going there and putting silly scores past them.

32:32Duncan Alexander: Well, it was the first of a trilogy to end the season. They lost 6-0 at home to Villa. Then the next home game, they lost 6-2 at home to Arsenal when Adebayor completed his home and away hat-tricks. And then the last game of the season at home to Reading, they lost 4-0. And that really was, you know...

32:46James Richardson: Reading themselves relegated that season, right? So that's pretty bad going.

32:51Charlie Eccleshare: Popular chants at that time for Derby County fans included, let's pretend we scored a goal and you're nothing special, we lose every week. Yeah. Okay. Paul Jewell never managed. Some positives to take. Paul Jewell never managed again in the Premier League, although he is still taking phone calls on the subject. Only five of that Derby County squad ever featured again in the top flight. were they the worst though anybody want to suggest that there's another side who've been maybe in terms of points per pound spent or any other criteria that there is another side to match them in their commitment to failure duncan i would in fact i think i wrote about this a couple

33:38Duncan Alexander: of seasons ago when it was happening that cheffers united 20 23 24 are worse why well because they had, as we just mentioned, been up, been down pretty badly and then came back up again and they let in 104 goals, which, you know, Swindon obviously let in 100, as Stu was saying, but that was across 42 games. And this was a, Sheffield United's team was, you know, a team that many of them had played in the Premier League a lot more than Swindon's players had. Yes, they won three games and ended on a monstrous 16 points. But I just think if you combine that with the season from a couple of years before and just the sort of you know it's similar to Derby in a way they had a lot of games where they just completely imploded they lost 6-0 at home to Arsenal.

34:22James Richardson: Excellent control on the far side the ball's going to be laid back to the edge of the area Gerbic is going to go down and it's Ben White who is going to score for Arsenal we've not even hit the hour mark and the Blades have been hit for six at Bramall Lane.

34:38Duncan Alexander: They ended the season with seven straight defeats. It was just, it's rare to see a team just completely give up. I mean, Southampton last year would challenge them as well. Of that Sheffield United team, how many goals did they concede? 104. 104.

34:53Charlie Eccleshare: So their goal difference was minus 69, but that is matched by Darby 07-08, who only scored 20, bless them. So they're kind of in the running there, I feel.

35:03Stuart James: The thing I'd say about Swindon, they did score 47 goals. Jan Agafjortov ran around being an aeroplane 12 times. So actually, 147 goals in their games. I know it's a 42-game season, but they did entertain a little bit as well.

35:18Duncan Alexander: Can you name the only player to be on the pitch for all 100 goals conceded?

35:23Stuart James: I guess Sean Taylor.

35:25Duncan Alexander: Correct. Who was Sean Taylor? He was the sort of big centre-half, wasn't he?

35:30Stuart James: There's a great story about Sean Taylor. Swindon got hammered seven at Newcastle. and he's on the, Jan Arger-Fjortov tells this story, they're on the coach on the way home and Sean turns around with a straight face and says to Jan, well, at least Andy Cole didn't score and Jan turns around and says, for f***ing sake, Sean, everyone else in a Newcastle shirt did. So, yeah, it was that type of man, Sean, played with his heart on his sleeve. I'm not surprised he played every game because he was a warrior, but, yeah, in the nicest possible way, not a Premier League footballer.

36:03Charlie Eccleshare: But one of the messages from that, Stu, for me is that if you're on a losing streak, players will just naturally try and find other satisfactions to take. We won the second half or we won the first five minutes or whatever it is you would take some satisfaction from.

36:21Duncan Alexander: The counter-argument as well is that a lot of teams have gone down from the Premier League and a lot of them are very hard to remember, whereas your Swindon, your Derbys, your Sheffield United, they live in the memory and they've almost become in the same way that the Lantern Rouge in cycling is almost a sort of accolade to be that bad you've created Premier League history so in some ways I deeply respect them OK

36:45Charlie Eccleshare: Saints though from our very recent past just last season 30 defeats which is a record the fastest team relegated I'm sorry I think I said Swindon were the first at that time certainly the fastest relegation but Saints have come to be beaten that now

37:00James Richardson: But I think Southampton, yes, they were awful, but they came in the context of two straight seasons of all promoter teams being terrible. I don't know. I don't think they'll, they sort of feel like they fell into this like overall sort of slop of crap from promoter teams. Whereas Derby was so standalone in their ineptitude.

37:21Charlie Eccleshare: All right. Since the formation of the Football League all those years ago, only Loughborough have gone through the entire season winning one match before Derby County and no one since. No one since. So are we settling on Derby County then for all the fact that Southampton spent more money?

37:41Duncan Alexander: Yeah, I think the fact it's the fewest points and one win, it's just iconic. and if and when they do eventually return to the Premier League, we know what everyone's going to be talking about that summer and that's the sign of a great achievement.

37:59Charlie Eccleshare: A horrible experience for the players involved. Did Paul Jules sound scarred by the experience when you spoke to him, Stu?

38:07Stuart James: A hundred percent, James. Yeah, like genuinely, yeah. It really hurt him. I think he went to Ipswich afterwards and didn't have a very good time there and I guess in a way you still have to see each managerial experience in isolation but I still think he brought all the Derby baggage with him and yeah he said he also made a really bad mistake at the start of the following season I think they'd had some kind of supporter event and he'd said to them we'll bounce back, we'll win promotion and then they lost to Doncaster on the opening day and he said he regretted trying to go the completely other way with his messaging and things just got worse and worse so yeah he did sound really scuttle And he actually said, he said, I feel bad about saying this, but he said, a tiny bit of me hopes that someone else ends up with this, as he put it, this thing around their neck.

38:52Stuart James: So, yeah, that kind of tag. But I can't, I mean, it does, when I look back now, Southampton 12 points last season, that is staggeringly bad.

39:01Charlie Eccleshare: Yeah.

39:01Stuart James: You know, it's, yeah, Derby obviously were atrocious, but I did that dreadful game at the end of last season between Leicester and Southampton, which they were fighting out for who was the worst team in the Premier League last season. And that was interviewed quite a few of the fans outside the ground. And that was one thing in their mind. They were still at that point trying to get beyond Derby's point total, which obviously they did by one in the end. Sole thing they were aiming for. Stephen Bywater, the Derby goalkeeper that season, or part of the season because Roy Carroll came in, said, you know, not with any great sense of pride, the 11 points will never be beaten, for a better way of putting it.

39:38Stuart James: and I think that's probably right, don't you?

39:40Charlie Eccleshare: It's hard to see. Even if a team like Saints took it so close last year, you don't think that we'll get another team that maybe doesn't invest, maybe has got some unrest going on and behind the scenes, the boardroom, essentially have their hands tied in the transfer market.

39:55Duncan Alexander: I just think the lower average is to go 32 games that a win is very hard.

40:01James Richardson: That's what I'm saying as well, just on Paul Jules. I mean, he'd done such a good job at Wigget. I mean, he really... Amazing job. Yeah, he was so well respected at that time. I mean, it really did. And then he didn't manage again after Derby for a few years. And then, like Stu says, Ipswich, year there, and then that was it for him. So it really did. I mean, and he'd been Bradford manager as well. Yeah, he was who, he got them promoted, didn't he? To the Premier League, Bradford. So, you know, he had real pedigree at that point.

40:30Charlie Eccleshare: But have one worst ever season in the Premier League, and that's all they talk about. There you go. that was Derby County. We'll politely move on from that season. But we were going to have a little look at one or two of the other worst evers in the Premier League. So stick around, because after that, we'll have a think about those.

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43:10Stuart James: You're listening to The Totally Football Show with James Richardson. Now we do four times a week.

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43:22Charlie Eccleshare: Listen, we invited you to do your worst with the Premier League. Aaron says, what about worst kits? My nomination is this year's third kit of Man City. The raindrops won. I mean, maybe not to your taste, Aaron, but they've seen worse. Mustafa says, is De Bruyne not winning player of the month even once? The worst fact in Premier League history. That's, yeah, a lot of Man City listeners out there. Duncan, you had a postscript on the Derby County story.

43:48Duncan Alexander: Yeah, just that Manchester United in 23-24 conceded more shots that season than Derby did in 07-08. Really? Yeah. Yeah, remarkable.

43:59Charlie Eccleshare: Remarkable. Other worst-evers, I think a popular question is who was the worst player in Premier League history, but I think there's probably a popular answer for that one, and it involves that Southampton anecdote with Grim Souness and George Weah's cousin. But there are other, I guess, interesting sub-categories, like who's the striker who's had the worst drought in Premier League history? And what would the answer to that one be, Duncan?

44:26Duncan Alexander: that is quite a tricky one because obviously players will be put out wide but I mean by accepted knowledge is Sado Berrino who went 48 games without a goal which is not great for a striker

44:42James Richardson: yeah and you remember around that time Spurs were thinking of going for him and they ended up signing Son Heung-min instead which has to be I mean obviously we don't know maybe Berrino would have gone there and under Pochettino would have prospered but that's got to be one of the best pivots by a team from one transfer target to another because they really wanted Berahino and couldn't get him so we'll get Son Heung-min instead.

45:02Charlie Eccleshare: There you go. Player who has featured the most games for a team without actually having a win. Do you know who that is? Ben Berriton-Diaz? It is, Charlie, yeah. 24 Premier League appearances. No wins ever.

45:15Duncan Alexander: He should be demoted back to Ben Berriton for that.

45:19Stuart James: This brings me to Gareth Bale. Obviously, he subsequently did get wins. What was that? Sorry if you haven't got it on the top of your head or you probably have done because no one knew. What was that run like? That was pretty atrocious, wasn't it?

45:29Duncan Alexander: 21 games. I'm sad to admit I popularised. I was updating that at the start of the time and it turns out that Gareth Bale was actually quite good and turned his career around. But yeah. Didn't start a word on by that perhaps. I mean, we don't know how close it was but obviously there was talk of him going to Birmingham, wasn't there? So, how different things could be.

45:50Charlie Eccleshare: Always the case, huh? Worst manager of Premier League history which is perhaps an unpleasant title to bandy around. But you'd give a shout-out perhaps Eric Black, who was a caretaker at various spells at Birmingham, Blackburn, Sunderland, Aston Villa, seven games. He had six defeats and a draw. Frank De Burr, although the sample size isn't big enough to really get him into the contention, but a really solid start by Frank with no wins from those four matches.

46:20James Richardson: Do you know who statistically the most forgettable Premier League managers are? So this is, I mean... How would you quantify that? Well, so this is based on the Sporkle quiz of Premier League managers of all time. And they give you the stats for the least guest answers. So obviously the most, or not obviously, but the most is Arcevenga and Jose Mourinho and actually Arteta. Then the least guests are John Dehan of Norwich City, Ian Branford of Southampton and Dave Merrington also of Southampton. Wow.

46:48Duncan Alexander: Very, very early seasons.

46:50James Richardson: Some deep cuts from the early days.

46:52Stuart James: John Day and Remy Gard at Villa must have had a pretty bad record.

46:55Charlie Eccleshare: Yeah. Cahier also has a shout-out for Terry Connor

46:58James Richardson: with that heartbreaking spell at Wolves.

47:05Charlie Eccleshare: That was a tough watch, yeah. But if you were going to look at it for managers who've managed at least 25 games with their points-per-game record, then the... Well, Ruben Amorim is actually in the top 50. He's in 36th place currently with a points per game of just one. 1.0. But the top five... 38 points per season, that's enough to keep you up. Plenty nowadays. And he did it last season. Top five, or rather bottom five, in the fifth worst by points per game is Ruud van Nisrooy. Rob Edwards is in the fourth spot. Where was Rob Edwards? Luther. There you go. Oh, that Rob Edwards. Right, yeah, yeah.

47:46Charlie Eccleshare: Rob Edwards is in handsome Rob Edwards was in fourth place with 0.68 0.63 Vincent Kompany he's in third spot and then actually this has just changed because it was Daniel Farker with 0.57 but now Leeds won last weekend as we record which means that come on down Kieran McKenna of Ipswich which I think it's it's unfair to give him the title of worst Premier League manager ever because had he been sacked the way, say, Russell Martin was at Saints, he would not... Is that right? Well, he had just taken them up.

48:24James Richardson: Yeah.

48:25Duncan Alexander: Double promotion.

48:26James Richardson: But yeah, did Martin... He didn't get 25 games, did he? No, he didn't. But that's why as well that you're missing then sort of managers who barely lasted any games because they were so awful.

48:36Duncan Alexander: Like Les Reid at Charlton who... Oh, yeah. Paul Sturrock. Reid, who was sacked on Christmas Eve, which I think the LMA came out and said, you can sat myself but you shouldn't be doing it on Christmas Eve which is such a weird like you know

48:48James Richardson: did they do that about Trevor Francis on his birthday yeah yeah don't do that

48:52Charlie Eccleshare: but it's my birthday yeah again I want to mention the money that that that Southampton spent the season when Russell Martin the same season from Kieran McKenna and Russell Martin took five points from the 16 matches he had having spent or the club having spent 68 million pounds which works out too per point gained. Anybody? 13.6 million. 13.6 million per point gained. Crikey. Hard to think that that's going to be ever worsened. But, you know, it takes a lot to make a team lose, as it does to make them win, so it's probably unfair to single out these managers the way that I've just spent some time doing, so there you have it.

49:38Charlie Eccleshare: Fantastic. It was lovely to revel in that that kind of litany of failure and best wishes to everybody who's involved and I'm heartened by the fact that they in some ways have some kind of nostalgic warmth towards those times even if they were painful at the time a lot of the quotes from the fans as well seem to kind of hark back to a time when it was so bad that it was good

50:04Duncan Alexander: Yeah, and I think we're heading towards 20 years since it happened and will there be retrospectives about Derby 07 and 08? Yes, they were. You bet they were.

50:12Charlie Eccleshare: We got in early on this one.

50:15James Richardson: They really scooped everyone else. But yeah, I mean, gallows humour is such a key part of the English football experience, isn't it?

50:21Charlie Eccleshare: Yeah. Stu, in your experience with Swindon, did the players start to kind of have a laugh about it after a while?

50:29Stuart James: Yeah, they did. I mean, John Moncur, I didn't see this. I was at the game on the final day when they'd conceded 95 going into that Leeds match. And there was a flip chart up in the dressing room. And he then, before John Gorman got in, and John, by the way, is just the loveliest man in football. I feel so sorry for him that he is kind of, yeah, tarnished by this. He should have gone with Hoddle to Chelsea and avoided all of this, but he didn't. He stayed and did the honourable thing and took on a team that was doomed to fail. Anyway, John Monker took over the flip chart and then put some odds on there for various things.

51:03Stuart James: You know, Elvis to be found alive was one of those things. And obviously all the players are kind of p***ing themselves, laughing. and then at the bottom he had Swindon to finish the season conceding 100 goals, odds on favourites. And then, sure enough, the 90th minute, Chris Fairclough scored for Leeds. And yeah, it was a goal that didn't matter at all. But it also really mattered because that was the 100th and that was lost on nobody in the stadium. Swindon fans, us apprentices, we all sort of had a little smirk straight away thinking, that's number 100, will that ever be beaten? And I actually didn't ever think that would be.

51:38Stuart James: Bear in mind that was a 42-game season of 38 now, but crikey, that shows how bad Sheffield United were.

51:44Charlie Eccleshare: So when that 100th goal went in, as you say, some people were having a little bit of a smirk because it had become almost a joke at that point. Do you think there was a similar feeling maybe at Derby that, look at us, we've become a bit of a joke, let's enjoy it ourselves?

51:59Stuart James: I don't know. I don't know if there was at Derby because there was such a mix. maybe if the squad had stayed largely the same, but because of that, as we said, James, that weird influx of players that came in halfway through the season, I don't think they were the sort of players, some of those, to kind of, you know, have a chuckle at it and laugh at themselves. But yeah, it was like that at Swindon. And I don't think, I think at Swindon, you know, are Swindon ever going to get back in the Premier League? Almost certainly no. You know, they were way out of their depth from day one and they kind of just accepted that.

52:32Stuart James: and they did have a lot of fun along the way. You know, as I said, if you speak to Fjortov about it, he tells, I mean, he could write a book. He tells so many fun stories about that season, almost like he had the time of his life there. And, you know, he likens it to, he says, tells a story about the Norwegian, I think he was the first guy to get Norton Eurovision Song Contest, you know, and said, that's how we kind of are, that Swindon team. Everyone has a little smile about it and thinks, yeah, but it was good fun, wasn't it? And Swindon were good fun that season.

53:01James Richardson: Yeah, fair to say as well, football maybe took itself a little less seriously in 93, 94 compared even to 2007, 2008 when, you know, there was a lot more scrutiny and that sort of thing. You know, players were still going out drinking and things like that in the early mid 90s.

53:16Charlie Eccleshare: Yeah, and there's something about a team like that that appeals to, I think, everybody. In the same way that people struggle to warm to Man City when they're winning everything, a side that just can't get a victory, kind of wins a place in our hearts. So, Derby County, you have that. Duncan, you're going to give us the answer to your quiz question before we wrap this totally extra up.

53:43Duncan Alexander: The question was? The question was Of teams that only played In the Premier League In the 90s Who lost the most games And Mr Eccleshire Went with Oldham Athletic Oh yeah And he's correct Oh Ruined it 39 defeats 142 goals conceded Across two seasons So They did what's called A Bradford In the fact that they You know Because their first season Was alright It's kind of forgotten The overall Poorness Reading Do you remember Reading? Yeah yeah exactly well Reading had three seasons in the Premier League

54:17James Richardson: but they had the same thing with those first two a really good one yeah but terrible one

54:21Duncan Alexander: but try and kind of differentiate between the three and it's scientists have said it's impossible yeah

54:28Charlie Eccleshare: one day maybe Duncan thank you so much for today Stuart thank you for being with us

54:33Stuart James: thanks for having me on James

54:35Charlie Eccleshare: not at all not at all well thank you thank you and thank you Charlie Eccleshire hopefully you listener thank you for giving us a listen regular Totally Football shows are up three times throughout the week so check those out too for now from all of us here, it's goodbye

54:56James Richardson: You've been listening to The Totally Football Show part of the Athletic FC podcast network for more great podcasts just like this one including The Athletic FC and our dedicated club podcasts search for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places we're also at The Totally Football Show on Insta

55:11Stuart James: and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

55:23James Richardson: The Athletic FC

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56:04James Richardson: Hablas espanol? Parli italiano?

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