Totally Extra: Franco Baresi - the best defender ever?

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1:44James Horncastle: The Athletic FC.

1:51Today on Totally Extra, we salute Franco Beresi, who left us this summer, but will be Milan's numero sei per sempre. A man who played for four great sides, but only ever one club. Truly a captain, leader, legend, the frankly amazing Franco Beresi.

2:23Unbelievable, unbelievable. Hello, listener. It's late August 2026 as we lay down this totally extra with Duncan Alexander. Hello. And James Horncastle. Hello, Jim Bell. Earlier this month, tens of thousands lined the streets of Milano to mourn. Franco Barresi.

2:50who left us at the end of July at the age of just 66. What a shock that news was. Berezi, who was Milan's player of the century, more than that, one of the greatest footballers to ever live and going to throw it out there, the greatest defender maybe to ever do it. What do you think, guys?

3:11James Horncastle: Perhaps with Paolo Maldini, the guy he mentored, essentially, and I do think when we look at the symbols of football in different countries, with Italy, perhaps because everyone has in their head Italy, Cathy Nacho, defending, the first person that comes to mind is often, I think, Paolo Maldini, also because he's got the kind of looks, but Paolo Maldini would no doubt tell us that he considers Franco above everyone and everything when it comes to that position that, I wouldn't even say style of play because while he was a defender he was a very aggressive attacking centre back but yeah, I mean to see the The outpouring of emotion at his funeral, it felt like a state funeral rather than the funeral of a once, you know, former football player.

4:21James Horncastle: And not the only one to pass away this summer as well. I know it's not quite on the same level, but I've just come back from my holiday in Puglia, south of Italy, and sort of landed in Bari, got the hire car, drive out, and there was graffiti along the motorway commemorating the life of Igor Protti. Protti who died this summer as well. Protti who was one of those strikers that you always looked at and thought, wow, look at the depth Italy have got. This guy is just unbelievable. So, yeah, sad at both ends of heaven's football pitch. well that's true both super super chaps yeah Barazia and Igor Protti who I had the very great pleasure to meet down in in Bari did you yeah yeah because they had a run of having these players who kind of came out of nowhere to lead the goal scoring yeah Sandra Tovelieri was another one the Cobra yeah yeah Darío Hupner still going fishing drinking grappa it's kept him going maybe that's the way to go yeah you know Duncan Beresi though was he part of your I don't know Sunday afternoons as a youth didn't Channel 4 used to show Italian football I think so it's on BBC Alba now yeah but yeah absolutely I mean when that started because obviously as a small child in the 80s we didn't really get to see I'd heard about him I'd seen the name in Match Magazine but I'd never really watched him play and then you see him playing he's sure he's 5 foot 9 and you get that now with I guess Lissandri Martinez at Manchester United but it was even more jarring in the 80s when the ball spent so much time back and forth in the air but he just looked like a different sort of player like a man there's some footballers you can drop into any era and they'd be brilliant and Beresia is one of them because he just as James said he's just like he could do everything on the ball and he always looked forward But, you know, modern managers would love him punching the ball through to the midfield.

6:34Right. He also looked forward, temporally speaking. He always seemed to be five to ten seconds ahead of everything else that was happening. His timing, his reading was extraordinary. There's something that, actually, you picked up on in your tribute on The Athletic. Jamie Carragher, who's come out strongly as Barresi. Super fan. Super fan. But also Werner Herzog, which caught me by surprise, James.

6:59James Horncastle: Yeah. Yeah. Werner Herzog. Director of Fitzcarraldo, Nosferatu. Yeah. What else we got? Also some great memoirs from Werner Herzog. Saw a clip of him getting shot the other day. Shot? Yeah, actually shot whilst doing an interview. And he just, he flinches a little bit, but he carries on doing the interview. And then... Is he not surprised to be shot? it's almost like I don't know if someone like just flicked your ear and he's like like that but then he just very professionally carries on doing the interview and then after his answer is given the interview is like have you not just been shot and he's like oh yeah I have do you have any further details sorry who shot it why well I think he was maybe doing a film or documentary about Settlers on the West Bank, I think.

7:56James Horncastle: I think that was it. I could be wrong, and if I am wrong, I'm sorry. Right, but some kind of area of tension where... Right. But no, he was at a film festival in Rimini with Werner Herzog, where he said that Franco-Barrezi was his favourite player of all time, I believe. There has never been a player who understood space so well, said Herzog. He saw the game better than any player from any country, from any era. We'll explore the impact of that and why Berezi was so good in the course of today's show. Duncan, do you have a quiz question for us? I have not one, but two. Oh, good Lord. So we can go either way, really, because obviously Berezi is very much a one-club man.

8:44So for the UK heads, which EFL team have the player with the most appearances? One club man. It obviously isn't Beretsis. He didn't play in Redacted Shire. In the EFL? I think per recorded football history, it's the most by any player in any country. But I guess you could have a one club man in Mongolia that's probably outdone him. But in the major, well-documented league? 770 appearances for a club in England, yeah, between 1960 and 1980. So it's a tricky one. It's a tricky one. And then the counter to that for the Coucho heads is obviously Beresi and Mardini were part of a defence that regularly recorded insane, you know, girls conceded numbers each season.

9:43Isn't it true that in the course of their entire career They conceded fewer goals than were scored on Boxing Day in 1968. They never conceded a goal, ever. I mean, it should be made more... No, there's an Italian team who have the European record for fewest goals conceded in a complete season. Oh. And who is that team? And it's not Milan. Is it a city outside? It is, yeah. They won Serie A in this season and they conceded a ridiculously small number of goals. was it back in the day season? Back in the day, yes. Think, oh, someone's landed on the moon. That kind of era. Oh, yeah.

10:26James Horncastle: Wow. And you say it's not Milan. It's not Milan. Which leads me to think it's perhaps... I don't think it is Inter. It's not Hellenia Herrera's Inter, is it? I mean, it could be. I mean, it should be. It should be. It should be. It could be. We'll find out later. We'll find out later on, eh? Already, the very great Franco Bresi is our subject today, much miss symbol of Italy's golden age.

11:13I'd love to have played one game with Franco Borezi

11:17James Horncastle: And no one more deserving To collect the European Cup Milan winners in 63 and 69 and now in 89. Franco Barresi lifts the European Cup. Romario, Romario, Romario Barresi. Yeah, missed those days. Barresi just... I think this is why it was so shocking when the news came that he died, that he was the most dependable man in sport ever, I think. We're going to talk about Brazy the player. Let's start a little bit with Brazy the man. I remember the first time I met him, I was a callow youth, behaired. And I was quite nervous because Milan were the biggest deal of all at the time. They were Capello's Milan.

12:15they were as you say recording negative numbers of goals conceded and he was the no-nonsense captain so i was expecting someone fierce and scowling and and all of that and instead there was this wonderfully kind and simple and down-to-earth a humble humble man years later actually i met him in Birmingham in Birmingham when he was filming Gladiators when he was filming Gladiators and he did it for a question and an answer and again he was so kind of he didn't seem in any way to begrudge the turn of fate that had led him one of the greatest players football's ever seen to a kind of random Q &A in a Birmingham Expo Hall and he gave a series of incredibly humble answers some of which we can dip into but perhaps this comes

13:07James Horncastle: from his his background James yeah he grew up in the middle of nowhere really in Lombardy on I suppose you call it a communal farm really where there was a there was a sort of farmstead which had several households living within it and they would play in the courtyard barefoot but an extraordinarily humble life and I think that Herzog quote that you read out earlier if you ever see photos of where he grew up it is just kind of vastness of nothing around him and you talked about his humility, I think a lot of it comes from everything that the milk that they drank was from the cows, the grains that they had was from the field.

14:12James Horncastle: And also he was quite quiet and introverted because of that. As much as there were other families around him, it was quite a solitary life. And your expectation of Beresi as being this quite fierce character, That introversion, I think, lasted into his playing career where he wasn't someone who would be shouting at everybody, but with a look he would let you know. He was a very silent kind of leader in that regard. So how did he become a professional footballer? Well, he was... You know how there are these stories about how great players had trials at Arsenal with Arsene Wenger, and Wenger would be like, could have signed Zlatan.

15:03James Horncastle: And you're kind of like, well, why didn't you, you idiot? Franco had a trial at Inter, didn't he? So he said he didn't actually have a trial. I think he went there and they said, you're a bit too thin. Maybe if you bulk up and come back. But in the meantime, so there was a priest who, a lot of that great meal inside came through the kind of the oratory system. I know the Sunday schools, the priests would organize football matches. This is why Italian football is dead, because it's the death of religion. People don't go to church anymore. Everyone talks about how it's because they've got smartphones and they're on a PlayStation.

15:43James Horncastle: It's because they don't go to church anymore, because the church is where you play football, where you'd have Don, Giacomo, Filio de Ricciardo saying, shall we have an eight-a-side, lads? I need a transfer market for priests.

16:02James Horncastle: So yes, there was a priest, wasn't there? There was. Who organised the kids from that farmstead and other local domiciles into a team. And they furnished, actually, a number of players, not just two of the Beresi kids, because there were, I think, five of them in all. There was another kid who, as you mentioned, I didn't know about this guy, who'd previously been signed up a couple of years before by, I think, Inter. And then Beppe Barresi, who was Franco's older brother, became an Inter player and a very successful one. And in Italy International. Franco was deemed to be a little bit too small by Inter.

16:44And after a couple of goes, managed to get into Milanello to be on Milan's books. And from that point, and around this point, I mean, his life, which has been not the easiest, is hit by two massive tragedies. They lose their mother when Franco is only 13, I think, years of age. And then three years later, four years later, the father dies in a road accident. And, yeah, the Brazy boys are now orphans. Beppe's already part of Inter, but Franco says that's very much what bonded him to the Rossoneri, to Milan. They became his family from then on.

17:23James Horncastle: Yeah. Yeah. And that was, you know, as much as people build up the legend of AC Milan as being this huge club, which it is. Yeah. He joined at a time when it was sort of almost the end of an era for the football club. and ownership were in sort of hard times. Milanello was, yeah, whoever's had the privilege of going to Milanello, it's this wonderfully bucolic place an hour outside of Milan. But it was being sort of rented out for weddings at the time. Yeah, you could have, you know, the Richardson wedding at Milanello because they needed to bring in some extra income that way. This was Felice Colombo, is that right?

18:11Felice, yeah. who subsequently, did he not go on the run? This was the Milan owner at the time.

18:17James Horncastle: Yeah, no, no, it was Juicy Farina. Oh, Juicy Farina. Yeah. And so to your point about looking for family, I mean, you could have multiple families at Milanello depending on which day you were there.

18:32James Horncastle: But he joined, I think he joined at the time when it was the end of Gianni Rivera. Gianni Rivera, the first Italian to win the Ballon d 'Or won the European Cup a couple of times with Milan and was held up as Mr. Milan, I suppose even though Cesare Maldini was a teammate of his or Paolo Maldini's dad Gianni Rivera for many years, I suppose until Paolo Maldini took this mantle was who you associated AC Milan with and Nils Lidholm was the was the boss and Nils Lidholm with Maldini debuted at what 16 Barresi actually came into the first team at the age of 17 and by 18 was already a regular starter for the Rossoneri loads of people writing in by the way with thoughts about Barresi Gazzareldo one of them saying was Inter letting him go as a youth team player to join Milan the pinnacle of Pazzo Inter or just one in a long line of baffling decisions i.e.

19:37swapping Cannavaro for Juve's third choice keeper allowing Roy Hodgson to decide Roberto Carlos wasn't good enough etc Roy always denies but i mean you've got so many other examples Pirlo letting Pirlo go letting Vieri go across on a free Clarence Clarence as well

19:54James Horncastle: Clarence Spredorf yeah yeah well although if you watch the Mourinho documentary which has just come out it did remind me of one of the kind of rare moments of genius that Inter's former president Massimo Moratti had to it's like okay Zlatan you want to go to Barcelona well you have to give us Samuel Eto 'o and money brilliant but no I mean we have we have debunked the myth about sort of Inter into deciding, ah, you're not good enough for us. It was more a case of, as you said, James, it's just like, you know, you need to maybe bulk up a little bit, Franco. So Milan is his team and Lidon was the boss and this is where he's playing as a libero, as a sweeper.

20:48James Horncastle: Yeah, so Nils Lidon, a very important figure in the history of Italian football because as much as people think that it is Arigio Sacchi who changes Italian football forever because from the 60s and Catinaccio onwards where you have Helenia Herrera of Inter, Nerea Rocco of Milan implementing Gioco all 'Italiana which is what they call Catinaccio where you have three at the back and a guy behind sweeping and very much locking the door, parking the bus, bringing the shutters of the store down. It's Leedholm, an outsider who had played in Italy, who says, no, let's get rid of that. Let's play with the back four.

21:36James Horncastle: Let's play with the Libro. Let's play zonal marking, not man marking. And Leedholm is someone who Carlo Ancelotti cites as arguably one of his biggest influences, particularly when it comes to his calm leadership. because Lidholm, Swede, liked a bottle of wine at dinner, consulted scaramancers in the Lombardy countryside. Fortune tellers. Fortune tellers, yeah. But Lidholm is considered the guy who laid the foundation for Saki because Barresi and others who followed him kind of were like, okay, this is different. They were learning something new and it's kind of what Saki wanted to do anyway. But it was already in the players' minds that they would play this quite counter-cultural style of football, which Barresi did better than everybody else.

22:39James Horncastle: And his interpretation of that role, I suppose, encourages you to think, we should keep doing that. Right. And he takes that into, even though he's no longer a libero per se, when Saki arrives in, what, 87, he continues very much that last man sweeping up, snuffing out fires all over mentality. Saki, who comes in and really makes the switch to this highly aggressive press, the 4-4-2, which is such a revolution for most of Italian football, and it's so incredibly successful. And he's aided by the fact that they've got, with Berlusconi now, freshly in as owner, they've got just an incredible selection of players, not least at the back where you've got Barresi, young Paolo Maldini, Mauro Tosotti and Billy Costa-Corta.

23:32Billy. I mean, you could make a case for that being the greatest back four ever. Interestingly, when I suggested that to Franco in Birmingham, he said, no, no, no. He went with the Juve line-up, Schreier, Gentile, Cabrini, yeah, back in the 80s. Seeing that Milan back line as it evolved through Saki and then Capello, conceding 23 goals over the course of a decade. Should we debunk that? Go on, then. So in the mid-2010s this tweet emerged and it said that in the games that Maldini and Barresi played together as a centre-back partnership 196 matches Hang on, did they play 196 matches as a centre-back partnership?

24:20Well, even that may not be true That doesn't seem right I think it probably probably left back for a long time Yeah, it did move across but that was only after Barresi had retired, surely Well, I'm not sure we can rely on these people for veracity at the best of times Anyway they said they only conceded 23 goals in those 196 games, which is ridiculous, because if you work that out, that would be an average of around 3.8 goals per season, which, as good as Italian defenders were in this era, is not really realistic. So I've seen the explanation that it was a mistranslation of it, a per season average of 23 goals.

24:56Yeah, apparently. It's almost, the truth is so dull that it feels annoying that anyone even typed this out. but it is to James' point a minute ago I think it is kind of telling that the reason that it went around and went around the world before the truth got its trousers on was because people were like well actually if something this outlandish was to be done then it probably would be involving two of the greatest so you know my tip to anyone listening trying to fake create some fake news pick someone realistic and then you'll be fine

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27:29You're listening to The Totally Football Show with James Richardson. Now we do four times a week. Keep up to date with us on Insta and enjoy us in glorious Technicolor on YouTube at The Totally Show. All right, so it was more than 23 goals that they conceded, but still they were absolute masters. Maldini is the subject, certainly of a golanzo that we've done back in the day, which you can find out there. But Beresi, why was he so special? What made him so special as a defender? and would he be, Dungan, you're saying that he could play at any time, would he be the world's best right now?

28:05James Horncastle: I think he's the prototype of a modern centre-back. I think he absolutely would be able to play today because you mentioned his reading of the game, his willingness to step out from the back with and without the ball but then sort of drive into midfield, help you kind of overload those areas. He's a great passer of the ball as well, could really spray passes. Had pace as well. He sees acceleration when he comes out of his own box. It's really quite something. I always find it really strange how this Milan team or age, particularly the first one he had success with, because people forget he was relegated twice and stayed with the club.

29:00James Horncastle: But the first one he has success with, it becomes associated with the three Dutchmen, Van Basten, Rijkaard and Hullet. And I don't know whether that's just an Italian tendency of, you know, you go back to the 50s and you have the Swedes, you know, kind of Gunner, Gren, Nordahl, Liedholm, and that's the way you look at things. But really, this is the team of the four Italians at the back. And it's that foundation that outlasts Hullit van Basten and the right guard and keeps this team winning after them, after Beresi as well. But I think he opened up new horizons, not only for his team, But for football more generally in terms of like, oh yeah, what happens if a defender can do this?

29:56James Horncastle: It allows us to do other things further up the pitch. And I think that's what made him stand out, what made him special. I mean, there's all those great videos on YouTube of him timing offsides. you know sort of Armilov like Wayne Hennessy but that was the classic Brazier look there were two things that stand out either him sliding in for a ridiculously clean last minute tackle to snuff out Romario usually

30:37and the other one was with the Armilov and dare disagree with him at your peril. Yeah, it was very much that era. Tony Adams obviously fulfilled that role in England. There's a half-man, half-biscuit lyric which goes, if I was a linesman, I would execute defenders who applauded my offsides, which sometimes makes me think of Brazy. There you go. There you go.

31:00James Horncastle: It is one of those things where, I don't know if anyone's also seen the YouTube clip of the 70s Holland team, where they seem to be playing a completely different sport in sort of just running forward to catch everyone offside or running forward to then all be, you know, interchanging position, doing mad things like that. There are clips of Beresi and that Milan team where you think, like, what? You can tell that the other team doesn't know what they're doing, that they've never confronted something like this before. And it makes it look really off. Yeah, there's a really famous clip of, I think, Liverpool playing at Old Trafford, where Alan Hansen kicks the ball and the whole United defence run out to catch Kenny Dalglish offside, but Hansen just carries on running like a rugby player and collects his own pass.

31:52And because he was in his own half and he kicked it, he was onside. And it's just, you don't see those coordinated offside, sort of red arrow style manoeuvres anymore. So it looks really jarring when you see it. But if anyone could pull it off, it was generally Borezi, I think. Well, that, I think it must look pretty jarring back in the late 80s when Sacchi was bringing it in. He certainly talks about Berezi being the man who made it all happen because Berezi fully bought into Sacchi's philosophy. Sacchi credits Berezi as completely buying into the philosophy, which must have been absolutely crucial because Sacchi was not a figure who necessarily would have commanded respect, I think, on first impressions for a lot of top-flight footballers.

32:36he was a guy who didn't have a proper footballing background. He had a lot of ideas. He'd come from a third division side, Parna at the time, brought in, there was this great intuition by Berlusconi, but had previously been essentially driving around in a Porsche, selling his family's shoes from a bunch of samples in the boot with a pair of kind of very 80s sunglasses.

32:59James Horncastle: And also when he comes in, because he kind of gets the job on the basis that Parma played really well against Berlusconi's Milan in the Coppa Italia. He's sort of enabled by that and emboldened by it. And he comes in and he says, look, I've got these old VHS tapes of my Parma team. Franco, look at my jobbing journeyman Libero. Do what he does. People are just like, what? And also, I mean, you're absolutely right, James. He did not command authority when he joined Milan to the point where I think they went out in the UEFA Cup to Espanyol early in his first season and it already felt like the dressing room might revolt against him and then Berlusconi comes downstairs and says, no, you can lose another 10 games, he's my coach.

33:51But Van Basten hammers Sacchi.

33:57James Horncastle: If you read his book, which is a typically Dutch book and it's quite strong, it's quite headstrong. He's like, well, you know, we were really good players, us Dutchmen, and he inherited, you know, four of the best Italian players of all time in their positions, so he didn't really have to do much. He was pretty good as well. Yeah, I think that's too extreme a view from Van Basten, but it is a view. and Beresi had already been part of although he wasn't a starter he was part of that 1982 World Cup winning squad with Zio Beppe Bergami yeah they were sort of kids when as part of that squad so you know it wasn't like he was some nomarch who all of a sudden got a southern breakthrough with They won the title with Lidholm previously.

35:01But the Saki team is seen as an elevation, an hypothesis, if you will, of what Milan, of what culture could represent. And then after that, you have the Capello generation, which in its own ways, every bit is extraordinary. Beresi ends up with six Scudetti, two Serie B titles as well, two Italian Super Cups, a Metropa Cup. I can't think what the Metropa Cup actually... conference European trophy okay so Yugoslavia Italy bit of Hungary I mean like Middle Europa yeah basically okay I mean

35:37James Horncastle: great video on Instagram Tito President Tito right yeah Marshall Tito yeah visiting the one of the Fiat factories in in Turin right just great Instagram material that was okay that's my algorithm people there you go I mean if you want a hipster take in late summer barbecues say that the Metropa Cup is your favourite tournament you'll be a legend European Cup, the more run-of-the-mill European Cup he got three of those, well Champions Leagues two European Supercups and into the Continental Cup and as you mentioned he had got a winner's medal for the 82 although he didn't take the field in that of the many stats about his career that are true that are true is the fact that he was voted Milan's player of the century which when you think about the players that they had suggests that he was somebody absolutely extraordinary more than Van Basten, more than Maldini more than Hullit more than any other players, Rivera that you could mention Barresi is the one that Milan supporters voted for the club retired his number six shirt and I've I mean, I'm not the greatest judge of a player, but just Elliot MK actually mentions this, who writes in, says, Remarkable how unflustered he looked and how easy he made defending look.

37:04Not that he didn't look like he was trying, but he always looked like he was in control, even in the most extreme. And we'll come on to this because there's a question about what was the greatest game you ever saw him play in. And I mean, there's one obvious candidate. And even in the most trying of circumstances, is Beresi, tanto che Beresi is the expression used to go.

37:26James Horncastle: Yeah. No, I mean, what I remember of Beresi is, I mean, he always looked like he was in his 50s. Yeah. And, you know, in terms of his style, by which I mean his appearance rather than his style of play, he would always wear these super baggy long sleeve Milan jerseys with his white shorts which were always invariably had a bit of grass on them, a bit of dirt on them and that sort of thing. His socks would be sort of, one would be up, one would be down but everything else about him on a football pitch was as elegant as you could ever conceive a player in that position playing. Again, James, I think you mentioned his place in the imagination of Milan fans.

38:25James Horncastle: He does embody the club when you think back to its origins. As much as people have in their minds Berlusconi's Milan, politics, power, entertainment, sex, Bunga Bunga Milan used to be this very sort of working class football club I mean it still is to some of the fans away from the glitz and glamour of Berlusconi and Ballon d 'Or winners deep down in its origin Milan is Kachavit in local dialect it's the screwdrivers it's the people who are making stuff with their hands and I think Beresi coming from this very austere childhood in the middle of nowhere, not too far away from Milan, I think reflected and embodied that, particularly in his quiet manner as well.

39:26James Horncastle: He wasn't someone who was flamboyant in the way that Billy Costa Curta is. Costa Curta would be his wife, Martina Colombari, was one of the most beautiful women of that era. you know, should be out with Alberto Tomba, Eros Ramazzotti. With Barresi, there was none of that, even though his marital situation was quite complicated. But he was very much just a regular guy. And, you know, I think this has been spoken about before, but, you know, when Paolo Maldini retired on his final appearance at San Siro, he is whistled and booed by the Cours de Valle where the ultras stand because Paulo had confronted the ultras before, I think after Istanbul in 2005 where they lose to Liverpool at the airport.

40:27James Horncastle: They demand an explanation. He's like, I give everything for this football club. When I step on that pitch, I leave it all out there and that means you cannot question me. They didn't like that. And so for his final game, booed, whistled, not the send-off everyone outside of Milan and that fan base would expect for a legend like Paolo Maldini. And they say, you know, Franco Barresi is our only captain. He's our true captain. And that was, again, replicated at his funeral. Not the anti-Maldini sentiment because there's been a reconciliation since, but this idea that he is the captain for eternity for AC Milan.

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44:23Up the shells. up the chelsea something beresi never said as far as we know which defender asks up the chelsea might possibly have somebody in mind i'm not sure which defender playing right now reminds you of beresi duncan in terms they're different sizes most defenders are different size to Franco Barresi but in terms of his kind of air of calm and passing ability and just dominance of games particularly a few years ago I'd say Van Dijk Virgil van Dijk had a sort of just that way of like you could see all the other players around him just relax because no matter what happens he'll get you out of trouble so but obviously physically a very different player very very alright Bungao Alain asks this question in your opinion what was the best game you saw Barresi play in?

45:19And I think for me and many people, the answer would lie 1994. A crowd of over 94 ,000 at the Rose Bowl in Pasadena for the 1994 World Cup final between Italy and Brazil. Franco Barresi's starting for Italy. The context to that and to the performance that he makes for 120 minutes in, I think, 40-degree heat, at the age of 34 is that the start of Italy's campaign or the second game in this World Cup, when they're having their nightmare against Norway and Roberto Badger's been subbed off after Paluca gets a red card, Beresi goes down with a torn meniscus. He gets operated on the next day and this is three weeks before the World Cup final.

46:12That's his World Cup over. Beresi, who had already retired from the national team two years before this because he felt that he was physically worn out at the age of 32, he's coaxed back by Arrigo Sacchi, who's now become the Italy manager. But this surely is beyond even Beresi's commitment to the cause. Three weeks after having an operation for a torn meniscus, he takes the field, he starts against Brazil with the soon-to-be Ballon d 'Or Romario and Bebeto up front. And what follows is just extraordinary.

47:12And even for Baresi, who is at the limit of the area of the Brazilian. He ends up on the contrast of an opponent. Romario, Romario, Baresi. Arriva Masinho, the ball for Bebetto. Bebetto and Baresi, again Baresi, stupendly ferma the initiative of the opponent. A applause. In the real sense of the word, the performance of Baresi. Viola, penetration of Viola.

47:43All the way through the game, it's Romário, Romário, Barreto, Romário, Barresi. Every Brazil attack seems to be snuffed out by this inexorable force.

47:56James Horncastle: Yeah, and was it 24 days? From the operation, yeah. From the operation, which these days, six-week World Cup, I mean, and he's back before the end of the group stage.

48:11James Horncastle: But Romario was the, and people still talk about Romario as being one of the greatest strikers ever. I bumped into him in Philadelphia, going towards the mix zone after Brazil had played Haiti. He interviewed Vinicius Jr. after the game. Very small, wiry man, Romario, with sort of salt and pepper hair. And that was a great evening, actually. Got a picture with Bebeto. Really? Yes. They were all loitering, all the FIFA legends. Right. You hang out with Gianni. I remember, I don't think they were waiting for Romario because he had his own thing going on. But there was Bebeto, Kaká, a very tall Rivaldo.

49:04James Horncastle: and one other. But yeah, Bebeto looked like he was a candidate to be a president in a, well, I was going to say South American country, Brazil. Could be. Yeah, could be Brazil. Could be Brazil. But no, so the expectation was that Beresi would go home after the injury because I think Cristian Panucci got injured. No, that's too young for Panucci. No, there's a story. there's an urban legend that one Italian player got injured, pretty sure it was Panucci, and he was going to fly home. And then there was that terrible air tragedy. A T-A-W or T-W-A plane went down. And it was like, well, that was the flight I was going to be on.

49:50James Horncastle: Yeah, yeah. No, Panucci was going to be on the flight out of New York. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But that wasn't during the World Cup. Oh, okay. But yeah, he went to the airport. We're on a bit of a tangent here. He goes to the airport. it's either Air France I think it's an Air France flight I believe and he goes to the airport and he's left a bag behind so he goes I'll spaff that ticket and just buy a new one and that's the plane that goes down yeah Duncan's now that's the way I remember it debunking this no it's true but it was in July 96 yeah ah okay but anyway Beresi sticks around yeah and he starts and he is I mean if you watch if you watch possibly you already have listener checked out highlights of Barresi in that 94 World Cup final it is incredible it's like a career highlights package but it's just from one match and against the eventual world champion so it is just amazing how this 34 year old on one and a half legs is able to just through his own mental his speed of thought essentially just turn up again and again and again to stick a leg where Romario is about to blast a football.

51:01James Horncastle: Yeah, and I remember what I was going to say now, which, regarding Romario, like, you know, someone who had been part of the Cruyff-Barcelona dream team, the one that was supposed to destroy AC Milan only a few months before in Athens in the European Cup final, as it was then known, only to lose 4-0. No, it was the Champions League already then. Oh, was it the Champions League already? Yeah, okay. So, yeah, I think it's right to say that Romario was the most feared striker in the world at that time, as good as Histro Stoichkov had been in that tournament. And, yeah, I think there's a great clip of Romario, actually, saying he went in at halftime and he was absolutely furious, just cursing Berezi, like saying, this guy's injured.

51:58James Horncastle: This guy's injured. How can I not beat this guy? How can I not get past him? And that's because he was Franco Barrezi. He was Franco Barrezi. Of course, the irony is, is it an irony? The twist is that come the end of the game with the match still goalless after 120 minutes, they go to penalties. Barrezi's already been down, cramping up, obviously not in the best conditions. Immediately puts his hand up, as was his won't, possibly just out of force of habit when they call for penalty takes. He takes the first penalty. He actually had a terrific record. He scored a lot of penalties. He scored a hand-trick once of penalties for Milan in a copper game against Messina.

52:40But this time, when he steps up, as he recalls years later, he saw Taffrel move and changed his mind about which way to shoot. And we know how that usually ends up. So Franco Barresi takes the first kick. It was off with Pratt just a moment ago. He's been out injured for most of this tournament

53:11If it turns to be a decided penalty a man who's had an absolutely

53:16James Horncastle: Illustrious career in the game that might be the worst penalty I've ever seen in my life of me Leading from the front but not leading successfully As it turns out, Paliucas saves one of Brazil, so it's not in any way decisive. And he kind of mentioned later on that two other players missed after him, Daniele Massaro and then Baggio. But as he put it, Massaro essentially got off lightly. Nobody remembers him at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Baggio, yeah. Yeah, but he is very humble in saying, you know, I missed the penalty too. And you all focus on Badger. And there were those kind of terrible Instagram reels of the man who died standing.

54:04You know, like when Badger misses, he's just stood there, disconsolate, and looks like the loneliest man in the world. And, you know, if you re-watch that game, you know, what you are reminded of is that even if Robbie Badger had scored that penalty,

54:26James Horncastle: Babetto was next up and if Babetto had scored that penalty it wouldn't have mattered had Robbie Baccio scored that penalty but such as the man Franco Barresi who was like let's all shoulder the responsibility here let's not let it all fall on Robbie but it inevitably did fall on Robbie you didn't get that from David Batty did you? no and that's how that World Cup final ended for many people his greatest game ending in his biggest disappointment and him in absolute floods of tears. But he said afterwards, I guess Brazil deserved it more than we did, which was a jolly sporting event. The Brazilians and Taffarel talks about this, which is kind of mad bonkers evangelical stuff, but here we go.

55:17James Horncastle: And Macumba. Well, no, he talks about how God is talking to him during the shootout. Right. Not now, God. God's like, God's going, did you see what Diana Ross did a couple of weeks ago? Hang on, God. No Claudio. Come on. But, so he's engaged in this sort of chat with God whilst a penalty shootout is going on. And then the other kind of mystical thing that all the Brazilian players talk about, and they believe this, is that Ertan Senna, who had died in an accident at Imola a few months earlier, Ertan Senna was lifting the Italian shots into the heavens because he'd visited them, Senna, at a friendly, I think, in Paris a few months before the World Cup.

56:17James Horncastle: and he had said, you know, you will win the World Cup. But they were convinced that Senna was driving around the Rose Bowl and created a vortex which lifted the shots into the sky because as Robbie Badger always says, he'd never, he'd missed penalties before, but he had never hit one over the bar until the ghost of Burton Senna drove a Williams at great speed. over the Rose Bowl and created this... Who did it to Chris Waddell four years earlier? That's the real mystery. Well, yeah. Anyway, that was Franco Breeze's greatest game ever. And also biggest disappointment. Yeah, but I mean, there's so many great examples because he was just the most reliable figure and remained so even while Milan began to lose their luster until the football left him.

57:20I think there's a famous game where a derby where Vieri schools him, a young Christian Vieri schools him.

57:52He does his Achilles, doesn't he?

57:57James Horncastle: And he's like, I don't want to... And there's the send-off Berlusconi gives him. Give him a ballon d 'or, a replica ballon d 'or. But Beresi had been runner-up, actually, in the... Was it to Van Basten, I think? So that would have been early 90s. Yeah, because that Milan team, I think a couple of times, had... 1-2-3. 1-2-3. A little bit... And the only time it's happened since is Pep's Barcelona, I think. But, yes, so Silvio gives him what he really deserved. because, I mean, it's not strange that Fabio Cannavaro won the Ballon d 'Or on the basis of what he did at the 2006 World Cup, and he's considered a Hall of Fame defender of a similar height to Franco Barresi.

58:51James Horncastle: But yeah, these players in that position are unfortunately the guys who are supposed to stop having entertainment watching football because they stop goals from happening. But, you know, football is more than just goals, James. Goals are overrated, as somebody I know used to say. Yeah. Well, there you go. That was 1997, the 1st of June, end of the 96-97 season, that Berlusconi gave him that homage and brazed he hung up his boots and got the send-off from Sancero post his playing career. He dabbled a bit in managing youth teams. He, I mean, essentially was a, he was an honorary vice president of the club and he acted as a, one of those kind of PR type figures for the club.

59:49He would go and do events all over the world, really. And it was quite, even didn't draw the line at Birmingham. Yeah, just quiet and dignified ever as much as he'd been on the field. The one exception being, and Duncan, I don't know if you can shed any light on this, the one random spell he had as a director of football at Fulham. For three months in 2002, he went there. The manager at the time was Jean Tigana. Yeah. And what? I mean, this was in Fulham's... Alphaya era. Yeah, and they were like newly rich. which obviously Kevin Keegan had taken them up from what's now League One up, and then they'd made it under Teigen into the Premier League.

1:00:37So they were just trying everything. Let's get a director of football. Who should we get? Franco Barresi. He's never done the job before. Bingo.

1:00:45James Horncastle: Let's get a statue of Michael Jackson. I mean, I would argue Barresi deserves a statue more than Michael Jackson. I agree. But we are where we are. They said, come along, we want you involved in this. So I went along to start work. but I never got the chance. I was supposed to be taking Tiganas' place as manager, said Brazy in Birmingham. Then things changed because they decided they wanted to keep him. So I said, I can't stay here. If I can't start, what am I doing here? I said, were you surprised when Fulham called you up to be director of football? And he said, they were an unpredictable bunch.

1:01:19It was the nephew he was behind it all. Well, there you go. I think we can now confirm he didn't ever say up the Chels as a staunch fuller man there you go his last public appearance Beresi was diagnosed with pulmonary cancer last September I think and he eventually succumbed to to the illness at the end of July in February he made his final public appearance which was alongside Bepi Bergami at the opening ceremony for the Winter Olympics and it's quite touching seeing that the pair of them Bergami talked about this after Beresi's passing a really nice interview in the Gazetta where he reveals that when they were Italy teammates it was Beresi who taught him how to fasten a tie do the knot on a tie because he had that even though he was an orphan he had that kind of I always felt like he was the daddy on the field the grown up in the room if you like cleaning up all the messes that the exuberant others had done.

1:02:32But yeah, so Bergami and he are alongside each other. And Brazy's quite frail at this point. And he just says, listen, if I have any trouble, I'm just going to follow what you do. And they kind of shuffle along and hand the torch over. But yeah, nice to see him recognised as a symbol of Milanese sport, of Italian sport. the day he died actually in july i was in in florence and put on the tv in an in an airbnb and they were showing an interview with brazi when he was like i don't know he must have been 18 or 19 maybe it was when he'd just signed or or it must have been even younger because he was 17 but anyway but it didn't seem like the most exciting interview but they played it in its entirety it lasted over an hour and it was on just on national tv and i think that kind of shows the stature of a man and not many players would get that treatment.

1:03:26Yeah, I mean, I think because of his role for Italy, but also because of the way that he was essentially a very clean player. I mean, physical, but sporting, that he was, I don't think anybody in the Italian game would have anything but good feelings about him, which is a remarkable thing, given the levels of feeling that exist between clubs in the peninsula.

1:03:51James Horncastle: I think when you do see the scenes at his funeral, not only is it a great testament to him, but it does remind you of what a massive place football still has in Italian culture. As much as people at the moment like to think it's becoming a tennis nation or it's becoming a swimming and track and field nation, nothing gets Italy going still like football. And these icons from an era when Caltro did rule the world with people like Beresi. So, yeah, I'm trying to think of events in other countries, you know, where a great footballer has passed away. I think, you know, Pele, obviously, something like that.

1:04:56James Horncastle: You had guys on scaffolding, sort of climbing up scaffolding in order to be able to see what was happening. You had the whole Cúrdova present with those huge red and black Milan flags. The one that has the number six, Barresi, Franco sepe sempre, you are forever, you are eternal. Flares being sort of lit. I spoke to someone who was there and they were like, it was kind of wild. but it's very Italian football that in terms of I don't know how you would even if it was sort of like one of those kind of ancient send offs that you would give a hero but yeah it was not your average funeral for not your average football player Indeed so Duncan let's get some answers yeah let's bring it back round so the questions were which EFL team has the one club man with the most appearances in recorded football history I'll give you the name of the player which might help it won't John Trollope father of Paul Trollope which helps a Welsh international so kind of near Wales Is it a Welsh team?

1:06:34No, near Wales

1:06:37James Horncastle: Your other question Yes, the other one was which Serie A team have the record for fewest goals conceded in a league season and it's the fewest across European top leagues And was this in a 16 team league 18 team league Yeah, a 30 game 16 team league 1969-70 I believe Ah, okay. So, Cagliari. Correct. Good Lord. 30 games, 11 goals conceded. Wow. And again, all they talk about is that fellow up front. Yeah. Classic. Yeah, exactly. And the AFL team was Swindon Town. Was it Swindon Town? Yeah. Swindon Town was on the tip of your tongue, wasn't it, listener? Wow. Yeah. Well, thank you, Duncan. Those were particularly testing.

1:07:29Yeah. If anyone got both, write in and I'll buy you a, I don't know, sheepdog or something. There you go. A sheepdog. A sheepdog. Everyone wants. From that stock that we keep. Yeah, excellent. Well, Duncan, thank you very much for that and your participation today. James, thank you as well.

1:07:48James Horncastle: Pleasure. Thank you, Franco Beresi, for all the good times and all the best to his family and friends. We'll be back with another Totally Extra next week. I literally don't know what we're going to be talking about, but if you've got something you'd like us to reminisce about, then do right in. For now, though, from all of us here, it's goodbye.

1:08:14You've been listening to The Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. For more great podcasts just like this one, including The Athletic FC and our dedicated club podcasts, Search for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. We're also at The Totally Football Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

1:08:41James Horncastle: The Athletic FC.

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