Totally Extra: Germany 1-5 England

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1:49The Athletic FC.

1:57Totally extra. Today we're having Ein Fonf with a 5-1 in Munich, the night Sven's England scored five while Germany nosedived. What a time to be alive. A quarter of a century on, it's into the archive in this totally extra.

2:18Thank you.

2:29Unbelievable, unbelievable this. It's a Friday morning in late August. Maybe for you, listener, it's late September, but hello to you wherever you are and whenever. Duncan Alexander's here. Hello. Daniel Story's on the big screen. Good morning. Good morning to you, Daniel. And joining us in the studio for the first time in a, well, too long, Raphael Honigstein. Hello, hello. Hi, Rapha. Hi. Thank you for bringing me in on this joyous occasion for German football. Well, you say joyous, but who had the last laugh? I wonder. Maybe that's something we'll be exploring as we look back ahead of this Tuesday's anniversary.

3:08Happy 5-1 in Munich Day to all who celebrate. But this Tuesday will be, 1st of September, the anniversary, the 25-year anniversary of that epic England performance. performance. Daniel, is it one of your favourite England games ever? Yes, absolutely. One thing I remember about it is that I got, three months later, or three and a half months later, got given the VHS of this for Christmas. It's quite an old nostalgia feeling of getting a VHS of one single match to watch, and I remember watching it on Christmas afternoon.

3:51Christmas afternoon, 90 minutes. The full 90. Yeah, I think it was very much a sort of early noughties coded, the men will go and watch England-Germany while the women of the family did other things. So it was quite patriarchy-coded Christmas afternoon in 2000. You won this recording. Were England shooting from left to right in the first half or not? Yes, interesting question. Because I think this is the game. This is the weirdest game from that point of view. I've never seen a game where it's almost a 50-50 split, whichever highlights you watch, which way round, which side of the ground the camera is.

4:27I remember England playing left to right first half, whether that's from the VHS or from the TV. But the German coverage is reversed. Yeah. Because of the advertising boards. Is that right? They didn't switch at the time. So one side would have had English sponsors. Right. And one side Germans, so you just... Honest English sponsors, one side. Sneaky German sponsors. Arrogant. A fish show. That's incredible. Was that a common practice? In Germany? No, everywhere. Every European game would have had that. It depended on the ground slightly whether they had cameras both sides. This was, of course, the old Olympic stadium.

5:11It was. With, as Daniel points out, the Cebutio scoreboard. Yeah, that's one of my abiding memories. Again, I think that's probably because it was on the front of the VHS cover. England fans with that scoreboard behind. But yes, it was the almost exact Sabutio scoreboard of how they presented the score and how the names were written, which was superb. Did you ever replay this game, Duncan Daniel, in Sabutio form? I hate Sabutio. Why? I think it's the worst thing ever invented. Why? It's absolutely rubbish. It's not like football in the slightest. It hurts your fingers, I grant you that. Yeah, it's a lot of flicking, but it's just, I never enjoyed it and I got given it when I was, I don't know, 12 or something and I just hated it immediately.

5:52Like, even trying to get the pitch flat is almost impossible. Well, you'd have to, I mean, you should put it on a board and iron it on and stuff. I mean, the German version of Sibutia is much better. Oh, yeah. Tip kick. Have you seen that? Yeah. So you get these little tin figures, metal figures, and they have a little button on top of the head. Oh, yeah. And if you push the button, well, if you pull the button, the leg pulls back like a trigger. Yes. You push it, you kick it. So there's actual kicking involved. That's better. Then you can buy figures that have a flat foot, like they open up their foot.

6:21Damn. And you can curl it. Tip kick, check it out. It's a really nice game. Wow. Of course, nowadays they have video games. But I used to really enjoy it. There was a Lego football set where the players were all on springs and behind each player there was a little flat panel, which if you pressed down and then released, you could actually gauge. I'm not sure you could actually put spin on it, but possibly. But you could certainly gauge the strength of your past. I digress. Rafa, this 5-1 performance that you may or may not recall happened back in 2001. Is it famous? Is it notorious in Germany?

7:02Is it seen as inherently funny that the game that English fans venerate isn't a World Cup or European final or even a semi, but a reasonably random World Cup qualifier for a tournament that Germany went on to reach the final in. I think I've been lured here on false pretenses because I was told we were talking about England-Germany the year before, which is a much better game. I don't think anyone here has a DVD of that one. No, I mean, this game, of course, was momentous in many ways. what struck me looking back at the formation and the the lineup was just how stuck in the past germany were there were only two players younger than 27 on the pitch one was deisler the supposed wonder kid who never quite made it at 21 one was balak at 24 wow who was then heavily criticized for having the wrong sort of body language and not wanting it enough when Germany lost.

8:03The same was said of Didi Harman. So the whole analysis, the whole way this game was looked at was still very much stuck in the past with wingbacks, with three at the backs, almost a sweeper system, no wingers, no attacking wide players whatsoever, two strikers who weren't very good in Juncker and Neuville. And it showed you that despite you know Germany's decent results or semi-decent results if you look only at the World Cup and exclude the Euros which already had been the disaster in 2000 that Germany really were stuck and I remember very vividly my good friend and colleague Ronald Reng either writing before or after game that this is a young exciting England team and he very much contrasted that with a sort of static where we can grind up results but we have to live on our pragmatism kind of Rudy Föller football that was happening at the time.

8:59Föller was still in the ascendancy then because he'd taken over after the Euros and there was this feel-good factor for him. This was a massive dent along with the 0-0 in Iceland when he completely lost it in a TV studio and started shouting at the interviewer. Right. National team managers shouting in TV studios over poor results against Iceland. Luckily, we don't have anything in that in our baggage. we'll get into the game in a second or two but did it spark a reboot this game or is that an urban myth? Was Das Reboot from your wonderful title of your book was that already underway at this point?

9:36It was underway and for example I interviewed Jens Novotny after the game and said you know how can you explain such a performance and so on and he did talk in the interview I saw on Kicker that yeah we are we are seeing younger players coming through but we only just started like a year ago. So this will take time. So the reboot was very much underway. But I think what was lacking, if you will, was sort of a top-down understanding what the problem was. I think the grassroots reforms were being put on the road, but the way football was fought about, the way football was talked about, the way football was played at the highest level wasn't.

10:16And just to reiterate that, you know, some of these players were of the Bayern Munich team who'd won the Champions League only three months before, playing also with a sweeper, grinding out results against Man United, against Real Madrid, very defensive, counter-attacking football, Oliver Kahn doing heroics. And that was sort of still perceived as the best way forward because everyone deep down knew we couldn't go head-to-head or toe-to-toe with the better sides. We could only kind of drag them down to our level. and that's how Germany were expected to play, which is why the 1-0 win in Wembley before, which was a pretty dour game decided by a free kick that should have been saved, was seen as some kind of tactical kind of masterclass because we nullified this much better England side.

11:07Right. And got Wembley knocked down afterwards. And got Wembley flattened. But that was not the case because this team were irrepressible and it showed just how old and immobile, especially our defence was. I mean, other teams, Greece, for example, did manage to repress them. But that night, what a performance it was. Maybe more significant even for Germany than it turned out to be for England, from what you're saying. We'll touch on that maybe. Let's touch on it now. Yeah, maybe quickly. I mean, Kika said it's a lesson. It's a lesson. But then I looked at their analysis and I don't see that any lessons were really being heeded.

11:48It was all about individuals not performing, questioning of mentality, kind of the knee-jerk reaction that you always got when Germany lost is because they didn't try hard enough or they didn't defend well enough. I mean, I know we want to move. No, this is what we're here for. The next competitive game between England and Germany was the 2010 World Cup when I say it was 4-1 and the roles were essentially reversed. Germany, you know, the developments that Raph was talking about had come through and England were very much just running on memories. Running on memories. Have you got a quiz question for us, Duncan?

12:22I do, yeah. We all remember Michael Owen scored a hat-trick in this game in Germany. He scored the next England hat-trick against Colombia in 2005. But how many different players have scored an England hat-trick since then? Since the Colombia one in 2005? Yeah. How many England players? Yeah. Well, I can think of one, maybe two. We shouldn't give the answer, though, should we? We'll come back to the answer later. Have a think. But yeah, obviously, you know, some players, mentioning no names, he may play in Germany right now, have scored more than one hat-trick. But he counts just as one. But he just won.

13:00Interesting. Interesting. Daniel's already thinking about that. While he ponders, producer Jesse, let's hit the harp. Let's see what else this week in football has brought us down the years in the almanac. All right, so this week in football history, 25th of August 1992, saw Eric Cantona, speaking of hat-tricks, scoring the first ever one in the Premier League. That was for Leeds against Spurs. We talked about it in a recent and hugely enjoyable Totally Extra about Le Roi King Eric. Gets free. Wallace to the touchline. And over comes the cross. Chapman's in there. And Cantona's in there. And it's a hat-trick for the Frenchman.

13:46His third strike took it on the volley. Sweet volley. And it's four for Leeds. Three for Cantona. Fifteen, by the way, fifteen British players would score hat-tricks in the Premier League before the next overseas player would bag a treble. Do you know, you probably do know who it was about a year later. So there were a lot of hat-tricks around then. Yeah, it was Effen and Kogi. It was? Not a treble, technically. It was the first place to score four in a Premier League game. Ah. But, you know, hats off. All right. Anyway, also this week in football history, and about a year after Effen's four, 28th of August 1994, Robbie Fowler scored the fastest hat-trick in Premier League history.

14:28Barnes now.

14:34Terrific atmosphere, and it's Fowler. Is this going to be his hat-trick? It has to be surely yes. An incredible story. That was for Liverpool against Arsenal. Took him four and a half minutes. Madness. A record that, as you undoubtedly know, stood for 21 years until Sadio Mane. Remember that, Raf? Notched a treble in just under three minutes for Southampton against Aston Villa. Crazy. Let's see, what else we got? Oh, 1966, 27th of August. Rene Higuita was born. Again, we did a hugely enjoyable, totally extra with the hugely enjoyable Felipe Cadenos. Debunking the scorpion kick. Did we debunk it?

15:19Did we debunk it? Yeah, offside. Oh, that. Red knack. Goodness me, have you ever seen anything like that in your life from a goalkeeper? That is quite the most remarkable piece of goalkeeping I have ever seen. Lots of great content in there, all about that mad freewheeling Colombia side of the early 90s and the less than pleasant way that things turned out for them. 28th of August 2011, 15 years ago today actually, was I8 to be Arsenal, Man United 8, Arsenal 2.

16:15Good times, eh, Raf? Do you remember that? I do. Forced Arsenal to go out and buy Mikhail Atetra in the transfer market. And Permetisaka. All worked out all right. Just goes to show a defeat sometimes. Any button. Sometimes when you lose you win Didn't Nick Nick Berry Nick Berry There we go And finally 26th of August 2024 Saw Sven Joran Eriksson leave us Two years ago already Whose finest moment I would say And I think most people would agree As England manager came 25 years ago this coming week On the 1st of September 2001 in Munich.

17:27England back on level, Germans! Ferdinand and Sherrard! And... Oh, Owen's through again for England! What a shot for the hat-trick here! Owen! Oh, this is getting better and better and better! Beckham scolds again, now Hesky's to his left on March! Emil Hesky, could it be five? Hesky! It's five!

18:00Daniel, have you dug out your VHS this week for a little look back at Germany 1, England 5? And if so, it was another word. What did it look like to you? Yeah, another word is right. England effectively in my head went five years between Netherlands in 96 and Germany in 2001 from really playing well in a game that I remember watching. And so in that sense, both of the second halves had this sort of otherworldliness feel to them, where this is what happens to England rather than what England do to other teams. Watching it back this week, I'd forgotten just how the game could have gone both ways in the first half.

18:45Germany had as many chances as England. Obviously, they took the lead. the other thing I'd forgotten is just how few other really big chances England had other than the goals one weird stat that jumps out Duncan mentioned Germany 2010 when England lost 4-1 England had three more shots on target in the 4-1 defeat than they did in this 5-1 win which is blows your mind results focus narratives but they just took their chances superbly with Owen being that guy and the thing that jumps out is the the Gerrard the timing of the Gerrard goal the quality and the timing of that Gerrard goal was, again, one of those goals that felt, to me as a kid, felt like England always used to concede in terms of timing and quality rather than England actually used to score.

19:29So, yeah, the Gerrard goal just completely shifted. Caball's come up from the back. Beckham to try again, baby.

19:41Clipped in towards Ferdinand. Gerrard! And he's there! What a strike from Stephen Girard Did it look like a missive from another time to you Duncan It was ten days before 9-11 It was in many ways another ward Yeah, four days before Bukayo Saka was born I mean in many ways it feels like the end of the 20th century If you look at everything that then started afterwards But I still think I would say England's performance is reminiscent a bit of a modern team you know there were their counterattacks I mean 2001 is probably peak Owen obviously won the Ballon d 'Or but the way particularly for his hat-trick goal the way he kind of takes the ball on the outside of his foot which he always used to do before he sort of sprinted through that was you know that in your mind's eye when you remember Michael Owen at his peak that was it but yeah I mean as Daniel said I think going in ahead was key and that finish from Gerrard I mean it's interesting isn't it because if you look at the team the midfield was Gerrard and Scholes in the middle.

20:47Nick Barnaby, who might be the least remembered man from that evening on the left, and obviously Beckham on the right. But Skulls and Gerrard that night were absolutely brilliant together. And obviously a few years later, Euro 2004, Ericsson was having to fit Lampard, Gerrard and Skulls. And I know there's been a lot of revisionism around that over the years. Has there? Well, I think people have automatically thought that Skulls should play central midfield but Lampard deserves his place in that team but I do think maybe it's the memories of this game that have lasted because Sculls was I think this is probably his best central midfield performance for England really England line up that night Seaman in goal Ashley Cole Saul Campbell Rio Ferdinand and Gary Neville across the back for the midfield as you mentioned of Barnaby Sculls Gerrard and Beckham and that's one thing that struck me watching this holy cow he could ping a ball yeah and Heskey and Owen up front for Germany, Rapha.

21:47As you say, not a vintage line-up, but still one that had performed, would go on to perform very, very well about six months later. They got great results. I'm not sure the performances were actually that impressive against famously very amenable opposition all the way to the final. When they played their one top side in arguably the whole tournament. Of course, they became unstuck, but ironically, not many people will perhaps appreciate this. This was their best performance also at the World Cup in the final, but that's when they lost. So they played much worse against Paraguay, USA, Ireland, but managed to squeeze through.

22:31Of course, they had that big 8-0 win against Saudi Arabia in the first game, but yeah, it was not a great Germany side, Even though they made it to the final, I would still say the football was pretty... The biggest dissonance, I think, is that obviously Oliver Kahn was probably Germany's best player at the World Cup. And he was terrible in this game. He should have saved two, maybe even three of the goals. Well, he afterwards said, they should have played my kit bag. It would have saved more than I did. Yeah, yeah, I saw that quote, which was great. And it showed you, I think, how critical he was of himself, but also how big the expectation was to Oliver Kahn.

23:09How big his kit bag is possibly. Yeah, maybe. Would always find a way to stop the opposition, even when they're bare down as many times as England did. But there was something else I wanted to say but I forgot. I'll come back to you. For all Germany's issues and rebooting, hopes weren't high, I think it's fair to say, Daniel. I don't know how much you recall of the build-up to this game, but Germany's record in World Cup qualifiers was ridiculously good. I think they'd lost one in their previous 60. They'd not lost at home to England since 1965. They had beaten England the previous year in the last ever game at Wembley.

23:51They were six points clear of England, admittedly having played a game more in the World Cup qualifying group. England, that defeat to Germany had been such an idea that they had seen their manager leave, Kevin Keegan, and subsequently sold their birthright down the fjord to a nation of seven million skiers who live half their lives in darkness, a.k.a. brought in Sven-Jürgen Eriksson as England manager, Daniel. Yeah, and England, as a football psyche, was still very much trapped in that Germany psychodrama at that point. This was only five years on from Euro 96, which itself was just simply an extension of Italia 90.

24:34and the defeat at Wembley which was at the time viewed as an opportunity the last game at Wembley to sort of rid England of some of those issues against as Raf says a non-vintage Germany team had been lost in a really just a kind of tedious uninspiring insipid way with as you say Kevin Keegan then well half-time hiding in the toilets of the old Wembley Stadium and resigning so yeah that psychodrama had peaked again And so going into the game, everybody expected England to fall short in exactly the same way as they always had against Germany, or at least had until since 1966. That's what made it refreshing.

25:16That's what made it so unexpected. And that's why Michael Owen was the leader of that movement. Even three years after World Cup 98, he was still seen as this sort of fresh-faced wonder kid because he'd only scored seven England goals between 98 and this. So it was another breakout moment for Owen, and that was where the surprise came from. Owen was still only 20, what was he still? He would have still been 20. No, 21 at that point. And yeah, so it was just that complete surprise factor in this sense, not just of winning a game, but of reading ourselves of one of those albatrosses hanging around the neck of English football.

25:59Didn't completely happen, obviously. But I think primarily because of how England went out of the World Cup in 2002, which was, I think most people think, our best chance of winning one since, well, until at least 2018. But yeah, the other thing that struck me watching the game back is that was peak England, big Premier League club England team in that 10 of the 11 were from Arsenal or Liverpool or Manchester United. The exception was Rio Ferdinand who would go on to join Manchester United. There were three more players from those three clubs on the bench. There was also Erwin Hargreaves who would go on to join Manchester United.

26:36It was just this, you could see the big cliques forming in hindsight nine months ahead of 2002 because, yeah, it was basically there's your Arsenal table, there's your Liverpool table, and there's your Manchester United table. At this stage, it felt like they were still young enough to get on and produce performances like that. And I think the other thing to add as well is the memory of England not qualifying for World Cups was still so strong. It obviously didn't make it to 1994. Qualification was hard then. It's hard to remember now when it's just, you know, will England concede a goal or not?

27:09It's really not easy to get for World Cups. It's not. Yeah, fair. But yeah, I mean, when England lost the first game to Germany at Wembley and then drew under Howard Wilkinson, the great Howard Wilkinson, last English manager to win the top flight, in Finland, 0-0, shortly afterwards after Keegan resigned, I remember people were pretty much saying, well, that's it. We're not going to go to the 2002 World Cup. Two out of three World Cups without England. Wow. Only the top team in the group would go through automatically. The second place would go into a playoff. Germany just needed a win in this game.

27:42Raffa too book their place in South Korea, Japan. And so confident were the German Football Association, the DFB, that they'd actually already arranged friendlies around the dates of the playoff, which clearly they weren't going to be involved in. Yeah, which I think was one of those things that was played up by the tabloids about every association in the world. Okay, fair enough. Does that. Fair enough. But yeah, they were confident. They were confident because of Germany's record and the idea that they would miss a tournament, unlike England, was totally unfathomable and out of the question, which is why this defeat, rather than sort of invoking too many issues about England-Germany, I think, in fact, most Germans were taken aback just how much of a reaction this result got in England.

28:34They weren't quite aware of the depth of feeling towards Germany before this game. Right. Although in 96, of course, it sort of had first an inkling, but this was kind of an addition to that. But the big fear or the big crisis came as a result of the result Germany suddenly staring at missing out on a workup for the first time and having those playoffs. And, of course, it was supposed to be, as it turned out, was going to be against the Ukraine, who had a very, very good side. and there was real fear and trepidation that this is going to be the lowest ever that Germany football will find themselves, i.e.

29:14not even qualifying for a major competition.

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31:08You're listening to the Totally Football Show with James Richardson. Now we do four times a week. Keep up to date with us on Insta and enjoy us in glorious Technicolor on YouTube at The Totally Show. Well, Pierluigi Colina was the referee, pleasingly enough. And six minutes in, peep, peep, Germany had scored.

31:47Casting Janker had opened the scoring. Daniel, you were commenting on the fact that England didn't implode, which was the kind of first sign that something improbable was underway. way. Yeah, it was. England also did what they needed to do, which is responded pretty quickly from a free kick situation. You mentioned Beckham's pinging long balls in that game, which were remarkable. He effectively set up the first goal with a free kick to the back post that Gary Neville headed back across. Beckham takes. Gerrard waiting here. Campbell getting in first. Now it's come all the way back to Neville. Now are they offside?

32:25No, they're not. There's a chance of an equaliser here. And they've done it. Michael Owen yet again for England. I think because of the youth of the team and because of Owen leading the line, there was this sort of sense, and because they'd gone 1-0 down, there's a sort of a sense of like, well, they're going to have to give it a go. And I think that England team at that time believed more than the public, the population did. I think they believed in themselves, particularly that Manchester United core plus Owen. And as I said earlier, having got to 1-1, the game was really, really even. You know, David Seaman made a great save from Sebastian, was it Sebastian Diasler, I think?

33:07And the game turns on that point because if England go 2-1 down, I think England don't win the game. We say this so much, but even in those games that the margins end up looking great at the end, there were several points in that first half where England were the worst team in the game and could easily have fallen behind and maybe would have crumbled. Well, they did fall behind at the start of the game and came back. Maybe if they'd gone 2-1 down, they could have done it again. Because as you say, there seemed to be a level of stress and pressure absent from their performance that we'd seen in so many other matches around that time.

33:40How much of that is down to the work of their freshly installed, skiing-loving, fjord-dwelling Svenjaer and Eriksson? darkness inhabiting the correct me if i'm wrong duncan but the the cliche became a spengor and ericsson that england would play well in the first half and then badly in the second is that right yeah his his classic quote was first half good second half not so good exactly if only he had some agency to sort that out but yeah but actually yeah so this was the opposite and it was the opposite because england had were using michael owen as this sort of one one-man counter-attack in which one of Scholes or Beckham or Gerrard would play a pass in or Emil Hesky would win a header and Owen would just be this roadrunner just zipping up the pitch and obviously we'd seen it in 98 with the with the Argentina goal but England hadn't really seen it between that times as I say Owen had only scored seven goals in England in the three years in the interim and two of those were in a 6-0 against Luxembourg he hadn't really he'd kicked on at club level but hadn't really kicked on in the same way at international level and it felt like deliberately or otherwise and my suspicion is it was slightly otherwise that England started defending that lead in the second half and then Owen just became this one-man counter-attacking threat that Germany's the lack of pace at the back Germany just could not deal with at all.

35:06Beckham now can he finish Heske oh heads it down Owen again and England have gone into a 3-1 lead

35:19I think Owen benefited from the fact that he and Liverpool had absolutely destroyed Bayern in the Super Cup a few months before, where Linke was just as exposed at the back by him. And of course, Oliver Kahn couldn't bring his aura to bear in those 1v1 situations because Owen scored, I think, if not one and two goals in that Super Cup. And I think he certainly had the belief that these Bayern players, these German players, they could be got at. And he played with such confidence and freedom that it was just another level. Far too quick, far too agile for this Germany side. Gerrard's goal at the end of the first half was his first in an England shirt.

36:12Michael Owen getting his second of the night only, I think, three minutes into the second half, which started brilliantly then for England. This, of course, not just the night, Duncan, that England beat Germany 5-1, but also that the English game lost one of its commentary greats. Yeah, Brian Moore died, you know, arguably the greatest commentator, in my opinion. you know ever man who'd sort of soundtracked so many great England goals including the the Owen goal against Argentina in 98 so it kind of made it I think a lot of people didn't find out until the next day everyone immediately went out after the game celebrating but yeah quite sad although good night to go I guess I suppose so I suppose so Owen then secured his hat trick with a lovely through ball from Gerard Daniel to make it 4-1 and by now the young Daniel story's in dreamland Oh, Owen's through again for England.

37:07What a shot for the hat-trick here. Owen. Oh, this is getting better and better and better. One, two, three for Michael Owen. yeah but watching the game back one of the the kind of mandela effect things i'd done is the fourth and fifth goal i could not believe how close they were together in my head england went 4-1 then there was a period a long period of just not much happening and then heskey adds the icing in you know 86 87 88 minutes the scoring's done with 20 minutes to go like heskey scores after 74 and that Owen goal is 66 I couldn't believe quite how close they were together and yeah the the Heskey goal in in retrospect has become the sort of unfairly on Michael Owen has almost become the defining tagline of this match even Heskey scored which is a deeply unfair on Emil Heskey because he was he's brilliantly effective for England at a time when lots of players weren't and also I saw a video of Michael Owen this week in which he said that Heskey was by far the strike partner he enjoyed playing with the most both at Liverpool and for England which I thought was a really nice mention because yeah Heskey's become a bit of a sort of I don't know a bit of a joke I suppose but his goal record was not phenomenal for England but that's not what he was there for he was there as a facilitator and the way he won headers in this game just completely showed his worth to England.

38:40Weirdly, he was a kind of target man in a counter-attacking team second half, which is quite a hard role or an unusual role for a striker to do. His header for Owen's second goal, the one that squeezes past Khan, is just a brilliantly weighted header. Perfect. And I think the thing with Heskey is, I think his reputation's recovered a bit in the last decade, but I think he was one of the first players whose career went into the social media age. And I think towards the end of his career, he did massively, unfairly become a bit of a joke figure. But if you look at his career, well over 100 Premier League goals, played for well over 500, 600 games, played many times for England.

39:21He was a really, really good player. I mean, without going too deep into this, I think there was absolutely a race element to Hetke's reputation as well. He was seen as this kind of lump almost, even though his immediate successor, Peter Crouch, managed to sort of own that reputation and sort of use banter as fuel, I suppose, and sort of make it his shtick, whereas Heskey didn't ever really feel prepared or able to do that. Yeah, I think he was. I mean, he was a phenomenal player who completely changed his game at club level from what he was at Leicester to what he had to be at England and did the job every time it was asked him.

40:00There's a lot of supporters leaving this ground and I don't think any of them are English. 20 minutes away from a quite sensational evening here in Munich. And Skulls gets forward, he's got Heskey, on for the pass, England are in again, it's Emil Heskey! It's flying!

40:26Well, it just gets better and better for England. I said dreamland half an hour ago. This is more like Fantasy Island.

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43:28This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Olly Kaye and the very best football writers around. Michael Owen Lewis Bell writes Michael Owen earned the Ballon d 'Or that day he was to receive it a few months later as a kid it's all we could talk about how good Owen was and how we all wanted to be him on the primary school lunchtime football games so three months later he wins the Ballon d 'Or how much of that is down to the performance in Munich? well a lot but obviously it was the year Liverpool won five trophies although come on the Community Shield slash charity shield is not a trophy.

44:13But as Rafa said, the Super Cup, that was a decent performance. Heskey scored in that game as well, I'd probably say. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say 2001 was a classic year in global football in terms of individuality, but he probably was the deserved winner. So Khan was third that year. Who came second? Raoul came second. Ah, Raoul. Fair enough. 5-1 then, Rafa. franz beckenbauer afterwards called this the best english performance he'd ever seen such a high bar of course was the reaction in germany as much this team is going that team is going places as it was we've got to reboot our own yeah there was a sense of that but it was slightly overtaken by this sort of outrage when it came to some of the tabloid headlines that accompanied the game.

45:06I don't know if you remember, but the Mirror had this famous mock-up of Oliver Kahn's gloves burning with the line, talking about the ashes, an affectionate remembrance of arrogant clinical penalty scoring and downright bloody irritating German football, which died in the Olympic state and so on. So deeply unlamented by a large circle of English football rest in peace. Now, I think when you're in England you know how to take this. I'll be it not very seriously. But in Germany, translated one-to-one, this was seen as a huge thing and as a big insult. And in a very tangential sense, I'm part of this story because I got a call, I think on the Monday or the Tuesday after the game from the German FA saying, something's going on, the English press up to something, we don't know what it is, can you find out?

45:58Can you go and buy the newspapers today and see what's in it? And I'm like, yeah, okay, sure. Why? He says, yeah, it's really strange. They came to the Bayern training ground and wanted to present Oliver Kahn with some kind of fair play trophy because he was such a good loser. We didn't really know what was going on. He wasn't there anyway. So his number two, Stefan Wessel, took that cup. Now, what had happened, and the German FA didn't realize that at the time, is that the mirror had kept on playing on this ashes thing and had this idea of presenting Khan with his gloves burnt in a little urn and give that to him and sort of making him accept almost that these are the remnants of German football.

46:46But he wasn't there. And it's fascinating, I think, because it took somebody on the ground going to the newspaper stand to find out what's in the paper because there was just no way of telling it. There you go, Rafa. You broke that story, like so many others. I also think it's fascinating that you have a country with the footballing tradition that England enjoys that can be that fixated about an opponent and thus about one qualifying game. Admittedly, an absolutely terrific performance. But what it says, I think, about the whole... I mean, the World Cup semi-final this year might be a counterpoint, But it's so true because I remember, wasn't it Jonathan Wilson who wrote a book about sort of 10 big England performances?

47:33Right. And this was very much in it. And I thought, yes, as much as this was a great big England performance. It was a qualifier. Yeah, the idea that Germany would have like a qualifying game as one of the top ever performances was just slightly preposterous. And then run around burning bits of kit afterwards. Slightly preposterous. But, you know, Vegas can't be choosers. The problem is, I saw something actually, I think maybe today or yesterday, saying about England's problem is that they won the World Cup. Yeah. And as a result, everything since has been measured against that. And this kind of collective psyche is that rightfully that's what England are.

48:09And it's just a kind of weird ongoing succession of circumstances that denied England that. and so they're like the once and future kings forced to roam kind of incognito a bit like Aragorn in your Lord of the Rings waiting for the day when the crown is restored and knights like the one in Munich are almost like I don't know a glimpse of the grail and as such Emil Heskey went to Minus Morgul and got a result what were you going to say but you know what I mean that's why they've been it's not some random thing it's like ah it's a glimpse of our manifest destiny at last the clouds have covered it again but it shows that this is the true faith But it wasn't a help of the fact that, yes, 1966, but then 1990 and 1996 also, you know, so it's like it compounded each time.

48:53But we won the qualifier and that's the real quiz. I didn't get that sense of entitlement at the time. I think the expectation that then greeted this generation of players was born on that night. In Munich? Yes, and then carried over into 2004, 2006, where it really kind of peaked and everyone thought, of course they're going to Germany to win the World Cup. everyone did their book deals in advance and it was just a case of who's going to win the golden shoot the golden boot the Barden Barden wags were born in that night in Munich there you go Daniel, I know you're standing by to say something is it about England's generation?

49:33no, I mean I think I actually think labelling the World Cup in 1966 is a reason for things going awry afterwards lets England off the hook England were arrogant way before they won the World Cup This was a team who in the 50s thought that Hungary were nothing. This was a team that didn't enter the World Cup because they thought it was beneath them when it started. This was a nation that basically football was just an extension of its colonial arrogance. And therefore it thought it didn't need to learn anything from anyone at any point. So I don't think winning the World Cup changed that. It was a marker on that journey.

50:06And yes, at that point, England was very slow to realise that the rest of the world had already caught up. But that had already been happening before 1966 and carried on happening afterwards. England just became another football team at a point when the rest of the country couldn't quite fathom that it wasn't king of the world anymore. But at this point, as Rafa was saying, they weren't just another football team. They had an extraordinary collection of players. And they did look like they were going to go and claim a reward that matched their level of expertise. Yeah, and this is also, you know, the United players had won in 99.

50:45So I think there was a sense that English football is coming back after years in the wildness, in the late 80s and early 90s, culminating in not making it to the World Cup in 94. And suddenly, you know, you had undoubtedly these world-class players. Maybe they were slightly overhyped, which sometimes happens. But I think by any sort of objective standard, they were sensational players. And this was a sensational team that on their very best, especially when they could play on the break, which I think was always their biggest strength, could really destroy sides. It's when they had to be a bit more measured, intricate, play football themselves, break down teams.

51:29that's when I think the lack of attention to detail that was also a hallmark of Sven's management style, which is very much sort of you go out and express yourselves, boys, have fun. That's when it became, I think, more problematic down the line. But this was just fresh-faced, exciting, direct, fast. You could not help but admire this performance in this English team. They did also come relatively close. I mean, I know losing a quarterfinal doesn't feel like that, but they came very close against Brazil. The Denmark win in that World Cup is one of those performances that England fans until recently, certainly until 2018, would have had up there, maybe as the best tournament performance they'd seen live.

52:16Possibly Netherlands 96 pushes it into second place. but the commanding nature of that knockout win was something that England basically hadn't seen before. All their knockout wins were gritty, determined, getting it done against weaker opponents, against stronger opponents, whoever. The Denmark game was a breakout. The shame then came in the nature of the exit to Brazil with Ronaldinho's goal and with the sending off. As Raf said, the inability to break down Brazil after they decided to stick with what they had. And that did become a theme of, you know, for basically a decade of England struggling to break down deep line defences in major tournaments.

52:57You mentioned factions earlier, Daniel. Do you think that was part of the issue? I think in terms of the personalities, that became more of an issue in 2006. I think in 2000 by 2002 I think there were the issue was more about there was so much such high representation from such a low number of clubs that tactically I think England found it hard so the Manchester United players would you know you had Beckham and Neville on the right hand side and they would they would be a unit you had Liverpool in central midfield and with Barney on the left with Gerrard, you kind of had, it just felt almost, it almost felt too easy for England that you were like, well, this is just the best of our club game and the Premier League's doing really well at the moment, so it will be easy.

53:43It almost allowed that underthink, I think. But personality-wise, I think that became more of a problem 2004 to 2007. Well, what looked like it might be a transformative night for England didn't really prove to be so, as Daniel was touching on there, the remaining four and three quarter years of Eriksen's time in charge, did not see England make the last four of a tournament. Germany, though, some months after this game, did reach the World Cup final. Not playing well, but still reaching the World Cup final. Getting past Ukraine and certainly the second leg, in some style even, was the start of a cycle where this Germany team at least sort of could stuck together and get a result.

54:32And there was a sense of cohesion and we'll make the most of our very limited ability. Especially Michael Ballack coming to the fore. The Ukraine second leg is the Michael Ballack sort of breakout game for Germany and that's the main reason why this carried on into the workout with him and Khan. Taking Germany all the way, nearly. Very good. And we should also mention before the play-off how this group ended, which maybe cast a bit of light on maybe these weren't the two giants they once were. Because obviously most people remember England's Greece game when David Beckham scored that free-kicking injury time.

55:15But simultaneously in Germany, Germany were drawing 0-0 with Finland. so the fact that England and Germany both ended that group drawing at home to lesser teams is kind of indicative of yes the 5-1 was an amazing game but these weren't like teams at the top of the game Indeed Any final thoughts Daniel before we get a quiz answer from Duncan Alexander? No, let's quiz Let's hear it then Duncan So the question again was obviously Owen's got a hat trick in Munich in 2001 he scored the next hat-trick for England against Colombia in 2005 but since then how many different players have scored an England hat-trick?

55:55Right, now you generously told us that Harry Kane might be one of them I hinted at an England player in Germany so yeah Harry Kane is one he scored five he scored five hat-tricks? Yeah OK post 2005 England hat-tricks Daniel, name some names Well I was at Wembley for England Bulgaria when Jermaine Defoe scored a hat-trick in a qualifier, I remember that. I think Raheem Sterling got one. Correct. Bakayo Saka just scored one. Yep, Saka's got two, in fact. Okay. There is another, is there? There's two more. Oh, Theo Walker in Croatia, qualifying. Rafa? Don't ask me. We've mentioned this player during this pod.

56:43Scholes, Poland? Gerard? Producer Charlie's got his hand waving. Peter Crouch? Correct. Peter Crouch? Why did we mention Peter Crouch in this? We didn't mention him. We did. We talked about... Yeah, after Heskey. Heskey. Oh, really? Yeah. I made a zone out for a second. Yeah, you weren't listening because it was me, James. Yeah, well. There you go. So how many was that then? I lost track. That is one, two, three, four, five, six players. Six players? Yeah. Wow. But at a tournament... No, no, in qualifiers as well. No, no, but in a tournament, it's the only Kane that's ever done it. And Saka. Saka.

57:23In that hugely, you know, we've got the night, we've got the World Cup qualifier in Munich and we've got the third, fourth player for the World Cup. In Miami, yeah. In Miami. And Daniel's wearing a France shirt, which I find deeply upsetting.

57:42So, there you go. Well, it's been fun to relive it and it's been lovely to see you again, Raphael Honigstein. Yes to the letter. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, Duncan. One last thing I just want to point out. I was in London that night after the game and in scenes I guess we saw a little bit when Arsenal won the league and everyone sort of gathered. It had that air of... And I think that just underlines... People took to the streets. Yeah, I remember getting on a bus in Finsbury Park to go further into town and the bus driver was just not letting people pay because everyone was that excited. It genuinely was a call your boss, you're not coming in tomorrow, you've earned it.

58:19Yeah, it'll be on a Saturday. But yeah, there was a sense of joy. Your boss maybe. A lot of people work on Sundays, Rav. There was a sense of joy that, yeah, you don't see Ralphton. Really? Yeah. It genuinely felt like a transformative moment had come. Yeah, strangers were hugging, put it that way. Strangers were talking on the London bus. Yeah, exactly. that's how big that's how seismic it was yeah alrighty well Daniel lovely stuff thank you for being with us thank you for digging out your VHS and watching it again Duncan lovely to see you we'll be back with another Totally Extra next week I don't know what we're going to be doing if you've got any requests listener do let us know via the usual mediums thanks again everybody thanks to producers Charlie and Jesse and you listener we'll catch up with you soon on The Totally Football Show.

59:43The Athletic FC.

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