Totally Extra: Leeds living the Champions League dream

0:00The Athletic FC

0:09Totally Extra. Today we're doing Doing a Leeds. The football, the fish tanks, the finances, the fire sale, the whole effing story of how they chased glory and then things got gory. From the top of the game to the bottom of League One, living the dream on this Totally Extra.

0:35It's so funny.

0:40Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Friday, February the 6th. And here in the Totally studio, Duncan Alexander. Hello, James. Hi, Duncan. Also here with us, Amitai Winehouse. Hi, James. All right, Amitai, lovely to have you with us. Leeds fan. Leeds fan. Since year dot. Yeah, 1992. Indeed. You're dot for so many exciting things. That's when it all began. Yeah. And also joining us on our biggest of screens, Richard Sutcliffe. How are you? Hi, Richard. How are you, Richard? Of course, Leeds fan and Leeds author. Indeed. Indeed. I chose a good season to write a book because the fans' adventures following Leeds United.

1:22Yeah. Richard went to all 18 games. As you possibly know, of that Champions League run in the 2000-2001 season, which is going to be, I suspect, the bulk of today's show, and wrote a book about it called Marching On Together. Do you know what you'd have to pay for that book on Amazon right now? I don't know if they all got pulps, so maybe it's a rarity. £65. Right. Wow. Peter Rees, though, would have bought the remaining stock, probably. How many goldfish can I get for that? Indeed. One second of Seth Johnson's salary, then. Can I say, actually, the whole goldfish thing, which probably we'll come on to, was probably the biggest disappointment of this entire story for me.

2:04Because 20 quid a month to rent a goldfish tank for your office, or possibly two, it's really, I mean, in the scheme of things, I started looking into one for myself, actually. I feel like it was because it was in a newspaper and they could tab it up. Right. It's like of the time, right? Yeah. Do a big spread, put a goldfish bowl on there, 20 quid, sorted. Yeah. Anyway, doing a Leeds from the top of the game to the bottom of League One in six seasons. It's an almost Shakespearean tragedy. All the classic ingredients, chutzpah, hubris and Lee Boyer. Amitai, this was the kind of background of your childhood.

2:39Yeah, well, I was born in 92. Right. By the time I really had an awareness of what Leeds were up to, we were playing in the UEFA Cup. by the time I genuinely understood football, I was probably slightly too aware 10-year-old trying to figure out how debt worked because I was really disappointed about what happened with my football club. Right. Well, what did happen with your football club? That's very much the question. Could it have been avoided? Could the whole mad crazy gamble have worked? Questions we'll be asking today. Richard, of course, you're covering Wrexham now for The Athletic. Do you ever think of Leeds in the light of Wrexham's meteoric rise?

3:20In terms of whether it's sustainable, yeah, that's the big buzzword of Ryan Reynolds and Rob Mack. They'll use the phrase, what we don't want to do is Wrexham to flame out, which is basically what Leeds did. We basically got too close to the sun in terms of the finances. Well, we all know what happened next. It was a horrendous fall. But no, yeah, so many clubs have come through. and not many actually stay where they are. So I always think flaming outs are really, well, it's obviously what Wrexham are trying to avoid, but it's really good to describe him what happened at Ellen Road. Indeed. I'm quite disappointed that Rob and Ryan don't use the term doing elites because that's kind of legacy football terminology.

4:02It's even got its own Wikipedia page, doing elites and not many club related. I suppose doing a Leicester's probably got a Wikipedia page. Are there any others you can think of, Duncan? No, I don't think so. I mean, obviously, Leeds days and Leeds season became a thing in Korea as well, didn't it? So PK Flex says, Leeds season was an expression in Korea when I arrived to live there in 2010, says PK Flex. It translated as peak era. I think it's specifically to do with Alan Smith, right? The idea that he moved to Man U. Yeah. Yeah, there's a very good article in Athletic by Stu James about this very thing.

4:39Leeds days. understanding a Korean cultural phenomenon started by Alan Smith. Why? Did he go to Korea? No, he went to Man U and then he wasn't as good as he was at Leeds. But why did that become such a cultural touchstone for a Korean? Well, to quote Sung Mo Lee, who I think has been on this podcast. Oh, yeah. He says, it came from a player from Leeds, Alan Smith. He was very good at Leeds, but he was not that good at Manchester United. So from that time, people started to use that expression. And now it's used in other areas as well. Even people who don't know anything about Leeds, they know this expression.

5:11Good Lord. That's remarkable. So echoes down the edge. Well, I don't know anything about Leeds, but I'm looking forward to finding out today. And Duncan, you've prepared a special quiz question as we like to do on Totally Extra. Yeah, it's a multiple answer one, which I think people enjoy ticking off with their friends. So obviously we know that Leeds got to the European Cup final in the 70s. We won't go there today. but they've obviously been to the Champions League semi-finals once in the Champions League era. There are ten other clubs that have been to the semis once and never again. So it's name those.

5:49Ten clubs? Yeah. Some are obviously. Some are less so. Got any thoughts already, Richard? Monaco, were they going to the semis? Well, they made it the final. Oh, you can go on to them. Yeah, but it means it's your only semi-final appearance. But Monaco is not right because they've been to a couple. Have Porto been to more than one semi-final? Yeah. Schalke. Correct. All right. We're on the board. Thank you so much, Amitai. All right. Well, we'll get the other nine later on. At the end of today's show. Next, though, before we get into the lead stuff, this week in football history. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network.

6:37It's currently the 6th of February Maybe you're listening to this on the 7th This week anyway In football history, listener There's been a big one for Newcastle Newcastle It was the 5th of February 1972 That Ronnie Radford's Hereford Beat Newcastle with the Rocket Pulling off one of the great FA Cup upsets Tremendous spirit in this Hereford side They're not giving this up by any means Radford now Cuda's gone down for Newcastle Radford again oh what a goal what a goal Radford the scorer Ronnie Radford and the crowd the crowd are invading the pitch and now it will take some time to clear the field what a tremendous shot by Radford he got that ball back and hit it from well outside the penalty area and no goalkeeper in the world would have stopped that back in the day before football was played on pitches.

7:37Also on the 5th in 1992, Kevin Keegan became Newcastle manager for the very first time. And also on the 5th, good Lord, in 2011, do you know what happened for Newcastle? Yeah, Cech Teote scored. It was Newcastle going from 0-4 to 4-4, capped off by that remarkable goal from the late Cech Teote.

8:16Still the only instance, Duncan, of a team being 4-0 up in a Premier League game. We came close this season. Fulham, when they lost 5-4 to Man City, I was poised. I was very excited that we might be seeing it again. but no, it remains a unique achievement. That day, I think there were like 41 goals that day. Good lord. One of probably, I would argue, the greatest single day in Premier League history. Surely that, oh, in Premier League history, right. I was going to go full Boxing Day on you, but just to upset you. Do you want one more on this week, in this week? February the 8th, which will be Sunday this week, it will be the anniversary 26 years ago of Inverness Caledonian Thistle beating Celtic, prompting this headline in the Scottish Sun, Super Cali go ballistic Celtic are atrocious.

9:08Magnificent stuff. I mean, whoever thought that up? Well, the author, Paul Hickson, who was a sub-editor at the Scottish Sun, does concede it wasn't actually entirely original because his sports editor, Steve Wollstonecraft, had mentioned a 60s headline, which no one's really been able to track down relating to a game in which Liverpool striker Ian Callaghan scored three goals against QPR and the headline was Super Cali scores a hat-trick QPR atrocious which not quite as good do you not think? I mean but at least it set the template yeah I'm actually disappointed to learn that yeah nothing's original is it?

9:47nothing's original indeed not that was the Celtic team the one from 2000 managed by John Barnes John, how do you explain that result to the Celtic supporters tonight? Well, first of all, we will apologise for the performance because it was dreadful. It was dreadful. Very disappointing. We've gone out to the cup. First, congratulations to Inverness Cali Thistle because they defended well, they played well. They were hungrier than us. It featured star striker Mark Viduka, who reportedly threw his boots in the bin at half-time of this ill-fated game after an altercation with one of the coaching staff and was then replaced by Ian Wright.

10:21Crazy times, crazy times. Anyway, that was on this week in football history. Mark Viduka will soon be reappearing, though, in today's show as we talk Leeds.

10:53Leeds United A crawl 150 miles So I wonder What was it The great Don said To make Terry Cooper cry Did he tell him Norman Hunter's tackles Could make a sumo wrestler fly Or did he Keep Joe Jordan's teeth In a clasp beside his bed You know the man's Got a picture of Brian Flynn On the door of his garden shed Don't you know I love I love Leeds United I'll meet you till I die My Leeds United That is the truly remarkable intro to a film called Peter Reedsdale, My Leeds United. Made, Amitai, I think, by Leeds United themselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back in, what, 2000, when I guess the idea made sense.

11:41Yeah, I mean, at that point, I assume he was fated as a chairman of genius. He was. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, why not do a documentary about this guy and set it to the Sopranos?

11:59With a kind of shot for shot reenactment of the opening sequence. I've always thought Beeston's very much like the New Jersey of the UK. There you go. There you go. Well, it did start off with eulogies to Ridsdale, the former fan, well indeed lifelong fan, who'd taken over as chairman in 1997 and made Leeds one of the top clubs in the country. As the film says, He's more than a fan, as any fan will tell you. Peter Ridsdow has turned the club around in the handful of years since he's been chairman. Whichever way you look at it, everyone has agreed that Peter Ridsdow and Leeds United is a marriage made in, well, Leeds.

12:39Nice. Who's, is that Dr. Hubris knocking on the front door? Maybe. Everyone agrees, Duncan. All great stories have gone. I just think we need to put Leeds into some context in 1997. Oh absolutely we will End of 96-97 Yep They had completed What I think is one of the most Extraordinary Premier League campaigns Under George Graham Where they scored 28 goals In 38 games But still came 11th They were just 11th The douriest team ever And obviously What five years after being champions Under Howard Wilkinson Who wasn't the most Non-dour manager So at this point Leeds were seen as a very sort of I mean no one tuned in To watch Leeds on TV because it was a very sort of, you know, bit of a grind.

13:23Grueling. So the fact that they, within a few years, had become this freewheeling, exciting team, that was a bigger turnaround. I mean, that's kind of what they're alluding to in the film. I guess so. All great stories need heroes and villains. Peter Reid still very much the villain, I think, for the overwhelming majority of lead supporters. Was he, Richard, do you think, also something of hero? Oh, definitely at the time. I always think back then the Champions League was in two group stages which they ditched after a couple of years I think and at the end of the first one when Leeds qualified for the second stage we were held back in the ground there was 8 ,000 Leeds fans there were held back in the ground for must have been 90 minutes maybe two hours because that's what the police did back then and I remember Ridsdale coming out you know obviously their players had been on the pitch and celebrated and then disappeared and obviously we're out there and everyone's very happy celebrating themselves.

14:18Ridsdale comes out and basically just starts leading the chanting. You know, there's 8 ,000 boosts and he's marching on together. Karen Wales, are you watching Manchester? Probably things like that. And then he brought the team out, you know, we're saying Ridsdale, Ridsdale, get the team. He brings them out and then Gary Kelly does it, Lee Bowyer. So yeah, there was a time when, you know, he could do no wrong. I also think back as well on a serious note as well. Obviously, we now know what happened with Ridsdale's reign, but this was only, what, four or five months, six months after Galatasaray when the two Leeds fans were murdered out there.

14:56And the things that Ridsdale did then, you know, I've spoke to the family since. You know, Peter did so much for them. You know, he was at a, I think they had a dinner, a fundraising dinner. I think it was last year for the candlelighted charity in Leeds. and Rizdale was invited to that and attended. So, you know, at the time when you think back to when we qualified for the second stage, it was like November, you know, it could do no wrong because the team was on a rise. You know, Duncan's touched on that 96-97 season and the Evening Post famously strapped a heart monitor to a fan when we played Derby County at home in January and it was a 0-0 draw predictably because I think there were five centre-halves played that game under George Graham.

15:41And the heart rate went up more when he was having a half-time pie, as opposed to any time in the 90 minutes of what was, because I had a season ticket back then, a pretty dreadful game of football, but pretty typical of that 96-7 season. So to go from there to this really exciting team with Kewel, Bowyer, Woodgate, Ferdinand by then, that was a massive sea change. So Rizdell was a hero because he'd never seen it. The other thing I'd say is also in retrospect for a certain generation of Leeds fans, I'm thinking about my dad here who he actually passed away about 15 years after the Champions League semi-final.

16:20And if you asked him in that intervening 15 years how he felt about Ridsdale, he didn't see him as a hero, but he had no issue with him whatsoever because he got to go see Leeds play at the Bernabeu, the Camp Nou. he went to a Champions League semi-final like in his eyes and admittedly he saw them win the title in 92 but as a guy who really was an adult Leeds fan when they were in the second division at the time the idea that he could have done all of these things was ridiculous so actually I think for the for the years after that he never had a negative word to say about what Ridsdale did because yeah he gambled the entire thing but it meant that he had the best time possible as a football fan.

17:01OK, others have a different view, but certainly the George Graham football Spurs in October 1998 took a look at that and thought that's the kind of thing we want at White Hart Lane and lured him away from Leeds. there was some suggestion that Martin O 'Neill might come in to replace him but instead it was George Graham's assistant David O 'Leary who steps up and immediately starts playing a far more attractive style of football and bringing through some of those talented youngsters that Richard was mentioning I wonder whether this is the sliding doors moment of the entire thing funnily enough because the like the O 'Leary team is the team I grew up with I saw all these young players come through and play brilliant football it's also the time when there was the massive investment money spent on loads of different players and I think you could probably look at O 'Leary's career since and the end of his time at Leeds which doesn't take long no not at all and question whether the reason why he didn't have success after Leeds is because he was relatively limited as a coach and that some of the decisions he made when he was at Leeds a more experienced manager might not have made I think like Duncan could speak to the fact that Martin O 'Neill at some clubs that he's been at has been like this absolutely brilliant manager who even in retrospect people look back on with such fondness could he have come into Leeds at that point brought these young players through and with like a bit more tactical nows a bit more understanding of how to manage a dressing room a coaching staff all these different things probably even gone a step beyond what O 'Leary did right a bit more of that and a bit less investment potentially Well, with O 'Leary in charge and that remarkable crop of youngsters, your cues, Paul Robinson, Jonathan Woodgate, Alan Smith, young Ian Hart as well with his free kicks.

18:45Leeds actually finished fourth, which was just short of qualifying for the Champions League, but it did get them into the UEFA Cup. And that was a team that had been successful, as we say, not through wild overspending. The next summer, again, it seems to be a fairly sensible approach to building for this European campaign. Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank is sold to Atletico Madrid. You've got Danny Mills coming in and Michael Bridges from Sunderland. What were expectations like ahead of that, Richard, that season? Just to push on again, really. You know, losing Hasselbank was a blow because he'd come from absolutely nowhere.

19:25Well, Boa Vista, but, you know, nobody had heard of him in this country. absolutely superb but obviously fell out with the club fell out with Ridsdale obviously was always going to leave and did so but reinvested the money really well you know it was and that carried on as well you know Olivier Decourt coming in for 7.2 million these were good signings Mark Viduca the following year these were really good sensible astute signings and you know obviously hands out it's wonderful if this had continued I don't think we'd have got into the problems that we did. But certainly that 99-2000, you thought, you know, this is fantastic.

20:03You know, we really could push on here. You know, are we going to be a proper rival for Manchester United again? Because, you know, we'd sunk a long way. Well, I say a long way, we'd still be in the Premier League. But, you know, when the Premier League started, we were the champions of England. You know, we'd picked Manchester United. And yet, in the intervening seven years, they'd left us well behind. So, you know, we still had fiery games against them. but we weren't mentioned in the title conversation at any stage so we thought maybe not the title but we'll certainly be pushing. And I think for Premier League neutrals like myself at the time it was important that Leeds rose at this point because Arsenal won the league in 98 but then for the next three seasons United won three in a row and they were just so dominant and we needed Leeds basically to come out and basically stand as something opposed to Manchester United which is a role that I think Leeds United quite enjoy.

20:56So, yeah. All right. That was kind of the first team you were fully aware of. Is that right? How many times? Yeah. I mean, I think I first started going when George Graham was managing. Not that season where they scored as few goals as they did. My first game was a 1-0 win over Arsenal, which I think basically handed Man U the title. But I can't exactly remember what season it was. But yeah, the 1990-2000 season is the one I really remember. I just remember like I've got this really fond memory of going to a game against West Ham I'm pretty sure it was West Ham 3-0 up as I left the stadium early to beat the traffic with my dad and just hearing from the car park the noise of the fourth goal going and getting back to the car to find out we'd won 4-0 and the like Olays passing the ball around the pitch it was a very entertaining team to watch That's why they call it living the dream I guess and a third place finish in that 99-2000 season which earned Ridgedale and his Leeds United a place in the Champions League.

21:57All right, so this is the good bit. 2000-2001, up next on this Totally Extra.

22:21football writers around. So Leeds United have reached the Champions League and I'm all right in saying that this is where they celebrate by really doing some serious spending. There was Olivier Ducour came in, Mark Viduca, who'd rescued his boots from the bin in Glasgow and made his way down to Ellen Road. Rio Ferdinand would follow in November of 2000 for what was a world record fee for a defender. Amitai, you mentioned Olivier Dacourt's unveiling, a moment that maybe had some foreshadowing. Yes, one of the most heuristic moments in football history, I think, this. And I think Richard might remember this as well.

23:04I specifically remember we used to get the Yorkshire Evening Post every night, and on the back page of the paper there was a picture of Dacourt with the unveiling. And I think HSBC were a big sponsor of Leeds at the time. So there's two photos that I remember really well, which was one was an oversized check which said pay RC Lons 7.2 million to the tune of 7.2 million but then also Dakor held up a shirt with his name on the back and instead of his number it had 7.2 wow what did Mark Viduka do for his unveiling do you know turned up about a month late he basically went straight to the Olympics in wherever it was in in 2000 about Australia wasn't I think.

23:47We didn't see him initially for the first month, really. So it took him time to get going. But I'd say of all the strikers we've had over the years, we've had some brilliant ones that I've seen. You know, you just mentioned Hasselbank, Yeboah, Kewel. You know, cracking strikers, but Viduka was the best. Right. Sam Barrington saying, how good was Viduka? I was too young to actually remember, but I loved him at the time. Adam Gerwich saying that his favourite memory of that era of Leeds was Viduka and the four goals against Liverpool that day, Richard. Bojan. Dakor. Treading it through to Mark Viduka.

24:27Still Viduka. Still. Brilliant. Simply brilliant. An awesome hat-trick from the Australian. Oh, incredible. I can still see that turn now, the Kop end. The third or the fourth. It's just absolutely fantastic. He was just one of those players. But even in the relegation season, he gave us hope. He's still got a decent number of goals. Even in a bad scene, it was falling apart. 2002-03, he kept us up, to be fair. That was the thing. I loved him. I thought he was a fantastic footballer. I really did. Just in terms of Leeds' youth, which obviously David O 'Leary did make a point of mentioning quite a lot, Any Leeds fan listening will probably know, like Johnny Cooper, my former colleague at Opta, but he is kind of the master of Leeds stats and he sent me a few which is really good.

25:24Between October 1998 and December 2002, Leeds had 246 consecutive Premier League goals scored by a player under the age of 30, which is a Premier League record. And in 1999-2000, players aged 21 or younger scored 37 goals for Leeds, which is also a record in the Premier League season. So they were a young team, but these players were delivering at a rate we've never seen before or since. Extraordinary. Extraordinary. Fun that all that was, beating Liverpool 4-3 at Ellen Road and that, the real glory was what was going on on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, the Champions League run. Richard, you went to every single game of this European campaign, all 18 of them.

26:05Yeah. Yeah, the away trips, I suppose I went on nine stag do's, or the equivalent of really that year. and it was every month. It took about a year and a half, two years to pay off. Obviously, Leeds were paying the debt for a lot longer than that. But it was worth every penny in terms of my expense. I wouldn't say the cost Leeds. You didn't need to buy Seth Johnson, Richard, but fair enough. No, that's where the problems came when it got carried away. And it's not just Rysdale's fault. O 'Leary's is culpable for me. There's other people on the board as well who could have said no. I'm sure we'll come on.

26:38So that's where it just, it ran away with itself. you know you had a you had a manager who had a column in the Sunday people a chairman who then answer him in the club program so I say I wrote I wrote for the program then so we'd get Peter's notes they come through you know three days before publication you look at them and think great he's you know on Sunday I know what's going to happen in O 'Leary's column here he's going to be replying to that and it just it wasn't the right atmosphere but but that 2000 2001 what a time to be alive as a as a Leeds fan you know it started in Munich you know people forget we had to go through the qualifying round.

27:11Yeah. We played 1860 Munich and had two sent off at home, 1-2-1. But you thought, oh, we're going out here. The dream's going to be over. But went out there and won 1-0. And the team we played, I think if you look in the midfield, I think it was Danny Hay who played that one. It was from New Zealand who hardly ever played. It was a real makeshift team. But we got over the line and then went into the group stage and then the first game up, Barcelona away. 4-0. But before you even get to that and that 4-0 defeat at the hands of the Catalans. What did you think when you saw the draw, getting Barcelona, who'd finished runners-up in La Liga the season before, Milan, who'd been Italian champions the season before, and another Istanbul opponent in the shape of Besiktas?

27:56That was the first one you saw. You thought, oh, no, no, I don't want to go back there. A completely different club. Both clubs were very good. They worked very hard. Everything was so fresh. at that stage when the draw was made, three, four months on from what happened against Galatasaray. So that was horrendous, getting sent back to Istanbul again so soon. But the other two, you know, two absolute dream draws, you know, just cathedrals. And I'd never been to either of them at the time. And I couldn't wait. You know, it was just absolutely fantastic. Everyone wanted to go. Like I said, there was 8 ,000 at Milan.

28:33I think we only got 3 ,000 tickets for Barcelona. You're right helping the gods. you could hardly see anything which was probably good like I say because we got walloped in that first match but you just knew then you thought even if we go out here and we don't get a point what an experience this is going to be plus bringing Barcelona and Milan to Ellen Road it's just what dreams are made of the thing obviously I went to all 18 games on all 9 away trips but every one you thought this could be the last 3 because we get through to the next stage, well, I've got to go to these, because we might not, as has proved, we might not play in the Champions League ever again.

29:13And that was the justification you kept using all year long, and I'm glad they did, because would have missed out on things that we're never going to taste against, had we? Yeah. Well, from that 4-0 away defeat to Barcelona, there was then the victory over Milan in kind of farcical circumstances, that last-minute goal, shipped into his own net by Dida, the Milan goalkeeper.

29:54And then the Besiktas game which was a 6-0 victory phenomenal stuff a 0-0 away from home to the Turks in Istanbul almost beating Barcelona came so close Amitai to a 1-0 win there and then eventually with the draw in Milan what was that 1-1 knocking Barcelona out it was Milan and Litu went through to the second group stage Yeah well we still sing about the goal in Milan because it was so important I think the thing that always stands out for me is just the sense of normality to it all I think because I had so few reference points beyond this chart up the league and then into the Champions League.

30:36I was like, oh yeah, for me it was like, of course we're going to get a draw away at Milan. Of course we're beating Besiktas 6-0. Football is this weird progression up the table and eventually you're going to win everything forever. That's what it felt like to me as a kid, which I'm sure when you're thinking about this being the last Champions League trip ever, I can't picture a world in which we're not going to be in the Champions League next season. And neither could the board. No. It's an infectious mood. It's an infectious way of thinking. Things are always going to be better and better. And the finances were going well.

31:09B-Sky B were investing in the club. Revenues were up. Yeah, and generally I think the fact that Manchester United had won the Champions League in 1999 and that was a real moment for English football because it had been so badly affected by being banned from Europe in the 80s and early 90s that it took a long time for English clubs to be able to compete again. And it felt like this was the moment the Premier League was you know finally competing against Serie A and La Liga and beating them and beating them so when Leeds a team who weren't at Manchester United's level did this I think everyone was like oh this is how it's going to be essentially ultimately that's the point we've got to now but this was a long time ago Richard when the second group came through so the first one you got through against Barcelona Milan and Besiktas in the second group you get Real Madrid the Italian champions Lazio, who were at their apex of incredible spending themselves under Svenja and Eriksen, and Anderlecht, and you made it through that group as well.

32:06What were your standout memories of that second phase of the campaign? Rome, I would say. The 1-0 win in Rome, because we'd been given a lesson by Real Madrid in the first game, lost 2-0. Again, injuries weren't great. Jacob Burns, I think that night, played in midfield, who rarely played Valise at that time. But going to Rome, We'd been to Rome twice in the two years before that, and 10 ,000, 8 ,000, I think, well, 7 ,000 one year when we played Roma. But this was just before Christmas. Everyone was skint because they'd been to Milan, they'd been to Barcelona, been to Munich. Obviously, a few hundred went to Istanbul.

32:44And I remember the gaming thing. We had one end of the Stadio Olimpico and there must have been 800, 900 of us there. And it was just superb. and again I can see now that control by Viduka on the engine, the back heel for Smith to run onto and scored right in front of us and the celebrations, I had a headache after about 30 seconds because it was just wonderful. Now Kuhl, Viduka, oh played it brilliantly for Smith! And Leeds have scored! It's a goal they have been threatening all night and at last they have done it. It was superbly created and coolly tucked away by Smith. What a night this is turning into for David O 'Leary's young side.

33:31Another standout memory of that and being a tight Yorkshireman, we had to give our coins in as we went into the ground. The police don't let you take them in. So I hid them in a bush and I actually found them when I went back out afterwards. So I was pleased with that. So I got all my coins back. Yeah, I actually went along to that game, I now recall, And it was a real shock because that Lazio side, champions as I say, but what a line-up they had. Simeone, Nedved, Veron in midfield, Salas and Crespo up front, Nestor along with Favalli and Cotto, Fernando Cotto, you remember him? Kind of a hair-bear bunch type defender.

34:08Peruzzi in goal. But yeah. And they came bottom of that group, right? Very probably, yeah. There was a 3-3 draw with Lazio to finish the group. and then you're into the quarterfinals where the opponents were the Spanish champions, Deportivo La Coruña. So you did it the hard way. Deportivo, who arguably did a bit of a lead to themselves ending up in the third division, although they took a bit longer with it. But what was it like heading off to the Riazor, Richard? Oh, that was an interesting trick. Like I said, we're going with the same mates every time. And we were not seasoned travellers by then.

34:43So obviously Leeds had their odd foray into Europe, but we usually got knocked out after a couple of rounds and i always remember we got the you know we get we're going to going to corunia and my mate looked at the map measured it like that from carcassonne and says it's only that far we'll be all right we'll fight to carcassonne because it's cheap so there's no direct flights there unless you went with the club so it went like that it says i will do that you know we'll take a couple of days nice and leisurely water a couple of days that well so we drove from there it was so it must have been about 18 hours on the road because you going through what yeah that is absolutely miles absolutely but at the time it was a great idea like i say it was that far you know we thought oh that's all right on the map we'll we're fine with that 800 kilometers yeah through the pyrenees as well through the pyrenees as well oh yeah yeah fantastic scenery but god will aboard it was uh but yeah no great great but then got there middle of the afternoon straight out that the other stadiums more or less right down on the beach were 3-0 up as well.

35:39Let's not forget, you know, we'd have that incredible first leg at home. Did our best to throw it away and it was like the Alamo. What a team they were. Absolutely superb. But we hung on and got the 2-0 and all of a sudden we're the last English team standing then which was obviously a sweet moment because we did play Arsenal actually before the semi-final down at Hivey and I went to that. I remember we were singing at them, you know, what you doing Tuesday night because we knew full well we were in European Cup action in Valencia and they were sat on the telly watching us. Right. Well, that Arsenal game is an interesting one.

36:10We'll maybe touch on that in a second. But you were now two legs against Valencia away from the Champions League final, Richard. Did you start to feel like destiny awaited you? Yeah, I booked the flight to Milan. I think when we got through the second group stage, because we knew with the way the budget allies that were around them, we had none from the league, We had to go via Stansted for all these trips, but you knew the flights would just escalate. So we all bought a£40 or£45 return flight to Milan for the final because we thought we were going to do it. And even after the 0-0 at home, which was actually on my birthday, I remember being in the pub afterwards in town and saying to me, mate, we always score away from home.

36:55Look what we've done. We scored four in Brussels against Anderle. We scored in the Stadio Olimpico. We scored in Milan. We won in Munich. we will get a goal it's when the away goals counted then so I thought we're going to go through it this is our destiny this is our moment Where were you watching this return leg Amitai? I would have been at home watching it and you know staying up past my bedtime basically at that point the nice thing about the Valencia game for me at least is that you know obviously we lost but there's footage of the away end right at the end and we're pretty sure there's video of my dad and you can just see him applauding which we found after he passed away So like he was front and center, he was wearing this quite bright jumper.

37:37So you can just see him in the away end applauding the players off the pitch, which is, I don't know, it's quite a snapshot of life that you don't generally get to see of people who aren't with you anymore. I didn't notice that at the time, but quite a few of his friends have pointed it out since. So, you know, it's quite nice. But I remember watching this at home and just, you know, it didn't make sense to me. It was like, I feel like Richard was optimistic in the same way that I would have been. But like, we were going to the Champions League final. That's how it was going to work, basically.

38:10And there was talk, obviously, because 1975 and Leeds lost to Bayern in slightly dubious circumstances. And it would have been against Bayern again. And, you know, it was poetic. Right. Well, slightly dubious circumstances surrounded this game as well, which featured three goals for all the Valencians at the Mastalla. The opener appeared to be very much a hand of God of air from Juan Sanchez.

38:50I'm not sure you would have been able to see this there at the Messiah, Richard, but presumably you've seen it since Yeah, it definitely was, we were well beaten by the better, Mendieta that was absolutely sensational but you know us Leeds fans we love a conspiracy and our best player got banned the day before the game as well Lee Bowyer for a video evidence a kick in the first leg which he did do but you know to actually find out on the eve of the biggest game you've had in what by 26 years by then so and then all the players but then you thought well we can still turn this round because all the players come out with a skinhead I don't know if you remember they all skinned the head to you know copied Bowyer's hairstyle So, you know, we're all in solidarity with you.

39:35But it was just 90 minutes too far. Like I said, we were absolutely outclassed that night. They were too good for us, far too good for us. But what I do remember from that night is the atmosphere. And I was actually, you know, obviously gutted that we'd not made it. Absolutely gutted. But I was actually pleased that we'd lost to a team like Valencia because they're fans. The atmosphere I've never known is brilliant. It's the only time I've ever been to them in Steyer. Fantastic ground, so steep and everything. but I remember around the back of the main stand afterwards, which we were sort of walking away, but there was sort of$20 ,000 celebrating.

40:07And I just thought, you know, if we lose to anybody, lose to a team which means this much to, you know, it was a very small crumb of consolation, you know, especially when I then looked at my bank balance the following morning and think this is going to take some paying off his all this over time. But it was that, you know, they'd done it. It wasn't, we haven't lost to a Bayern Munich who've won it five times or a Real Madrid who were, you know, final previous year and won it. This was, you know, and I hoped they'd go on and win it. Obviously, you know, it didn't happen. But yeah, it's a bittersweet memory.

40:40Obviously, it was brilliant to get there. So much expectation, but it was just one of them nights when we didn't perform. And like I say, one was handball, but that's not why we lost. You know, they were the better team before that. Juan Sanchez scored a second one, almost had a hat trick as the BBC match report at the time put it he had already got his hands on the match ball so there's that well exciting though all of that was and for a team who'd been what down in 11th only a few seasons before what a what a journey it had been but you mentioned the Arsenal game that happened between the two legs against Valencia this is on the 5th of May and at Highbury saw Leeds beaten 2-1.

41:23So while Leeds fans were singing, their team did drop to fourth place, which that season was still, outside the Champions League places with two games to go. And despite winning those final two games, 6-1 over Bradford and 3-1 against Leicester, that is where Leeds finished with dramatic consequences. Consequences, Duncan, which we'll get on to next. And we should just point out, Ian Hart scored a direct free kick in the league's last three games of the season. Wow. Which is pretty impressive. Kenny produced one of his specials.

41:57Oh, what about that for a goal?

42:04Everybody was looking for power. Hart went for finesse.

42:14you're listening to the Totally Football Show with James Richardson now with you four times a week keep up to date with us on Insta and enjoy us in glorious Technicolor on YouTube at the Totally Show well the Champions League season had been a mad dream but 19th of May found Leeds one point behind Liverpool and that's just outside the Champions League places Koops says exactly how small was the margin for Leeds United between failure and success? I know he kept just missing out on qualifying for the Champions League after all the spending. Would qualification money have plugged the gap? Or was this gamble with spending always going to catch up to us?

42:52Amitai? Well, you only have to look at two things from that season. The first one being the disallowed goal against Man U, which any Leeds fan can talk about. Wes Brown scored an own goal. And if that had counted, I think Leeds would have qualified for the Champions League that season. and it was incorrectly disallowed. The second thing is the thing you mentioned before, which is that that was the last season where three teams qualified for the Champions League. So if it had been a season later, Leeds would have qualified for the Champions League. And I think the thing you can't understand is whether or not it would have plugged the gap for a year and therefore things would have been fine for a further season or whether it was always going to fall apart and therefore another season in the Champions League would have just required another season in the Champions League and another season in the Champions League forever, which inevitably you're not going to be able to sustain forevermore.

43:41I do still think that they were pretty close to, at the very least, keeping this going for another season. Because, to be honest, even the next season they kept spending money. So it's not as if they saw the massive... Well, they saw the calamity coming, but it's not like they weren't trying to avoid it by spending more money. Iceberg, what Iceberg? Yeah, yeah. Right. So the finances, the whole kind of spending model, and that season had seen Robbie Keane also arriving in April. To his boyhood club. To his boyhood club. So the spending had continued throughout the 2000-2001 season. Then Richdale's reaction to missing out on Champions League revenue for the following campaign and trying to service an overdraft of£25 million was essentially to go out and get the biggest loan that any football club had ever taken out.

44:30Richard, how bad did the iceberg look to people? With hindsight, the decision seems disastrous, but was it seen as just a commitment to the club's ambition, a chairman being brave? It was, because there's also around this time as well, talking for the new stadium, Ridsdale wanted to move Leeds out to Stern, which is nearer towards where the M1 is, because it says, you know, Ellen Road can't sustain where Leeds want to go. So everything just sounded good. You trust the people who have got their hand on the tiller. And like I say, it wasn't just Ritzdale. There's Alan Layton. There's David Spencer on the board.

45:09There's so many of them. Ritzdale's the focus because, and I'll always remember when we signed Rio Ferdinand, 18 million, setting a new transfer record for Britain. And I will say the best defender I've ever seen play for Leeds. He's a fantastic, brilliant, brilliant footballer. But I always remember we signed in, we played Liverpool at home ah Liverpool Arsenal at home beat them 1-0 and it was either before the game at half time he was presented to the crowd but Ridsdale brought him out he was almost like saying look what I'm giving you you know so later on when Ridsdale will say well it wasn't just me and it wasn't you know it was Alan Layton and David Spencer like I say but he didn't say to Alan Layton and David Spencer I presume do you want to come out and we can all present him to the crowd you know Ridsdale met out it was his thing and we trusted him you know we thought well these guys know what they're doing.

45:59Look how far we've come in three years. And, you know, like I say, if we want to build a new ground, then, you know, the finances must add up. Sadly, they didn't. You know, you look back with hindsight and, you know, as great as it had been to get to the semi-final and we'd gone so close to qualifying again, this was the time to put the brakes on. You know, this was the time when you sell somebody. You know, you do, one sale surely would have sorted, especially if that's Rio. We probably wouldn't have got the 30 million we got in 2002 because by then he'd had another full year in the Premier League and Man United wanted him but we'd certainly recoup the 18 million we'd paid maybe 22, 23 million something like that I know it's all hindsight and you know that's great after the thing but if the breaks had come on then fine but they didn't because instead we signed Robbie Fowler which took it to six strikers if you include Luke Huell and Bridges who obviously had his injury and he got into the routine because obviously back then you played with two strikers but 62, 63 minutes into every game Uliere was changing because he just had two world-class strikers alongside him on the bench and it's almost like he felt, well I've got to get them on regardless of where the game was at.

47:13And everything becomes a victim of circumstances then and it's, you know, it unraveled very quickly and the difference between UEFA Cup money then and the Champions League was night and day. That's the moment because as soon as in the Southam Champions League. You know, and instead you're going to, I think we played Twyne in the first round and PSV, I can't remember now. I went to them all, but, you know, it was thin gruel after what we'd had the previous season. Well, to put things in perspective again, Duncan, nowadays you'll often see clubs take out major loans and experiment with new forms of financing even.

47:49I think of Barcelona pulling all their levers season after season. But what Leeds did at the time was quite unprecedented. First, because they essentially mortgaged, what was it, the next 25 years of gate receipts against the loan. And secondly, they spent the money largely on players. Yeah, I mean, they actually only made two signings that season. But the first was Seth Johnson in October for$7 million from Derby. An up-and-coming talent. But obviously the famous story about that is he went in with his agent with a certain figure in mind. I think it was 30 grand he ended up with or something.

48:23Yeah, I think his agent, they were hoping for like 18 or something and they were like going and going we'll try for that and then ridgedale just came out with we can offer you 30 and they're like oh you're okay so the apocryphal story is that ridgedale offers 30 they are stunned and can't reply and he goes all right then 37 yeah but sadly we can reveal or happily we can reveal that wasn't the case amitai no i don't think i don't think it went quite that high was it it was it was you know it was a sum they weren't expecting but i think basically the the idea that he the stumbling caused a massive pay rise isn't true the other the other thing that's undersaid about this team incidentally is what these signings and the wages they brought in did to the dressing room because i'm i'm not 100 sure on this but i think some of the players who came through at youth level so woodgate smith players like that they were on like relatively normal salaries and then seth johnson comes in robbie fowler comes in i interviewed quite a few of the players who'd already been at leads um a few years ago for a piece um i did a previous paper and they said that what it did was it caused this like issue within the dressing room and where previously they'd all been like part of the success story was the atmosphere within the dressing room like the stories about these games they used to play during matches with each other like with each other where they had this coin each of them held a coin and they had to pass it to the next player and obviously it's not particularly professional but it was like a fun thing they did during matches and spoke for like how good the atmosphere was the players who came in on loads more money essentially soured that atmosphere right and you can kind of see the point at which players start being signed with really big wages and the results just kind of like tail off because people are suddenly like hang on a minute he's earning this much why am i earning this much well the rationale of the club was that we'll spend all this money to get ourselves back into the champions league and let's keep that get that upward trend back underway but people point to a couple of real turning points in the 2001-2002 season when four places were available in the Champions League.

50:23One is the majestic affair, the assault on a student outside a Leeds nightclub which had happened back in January 2000. The trial had been rumbling on subjudice. But the verdict came through in December of 2001 which saw Lee Boyer who was one of the two Leeds players charged acquitted. But Jonathan Woodgate sentenced to 100 hours a community service for a fray. Two days after the verdict, this is extraordinary, David O 'Leary has his book, Leeds United on Trial, serialized in, what was it, the News of the World, I think. Yeah, and I don't think he'd made clear what his book was going to be called.

51:03This was part of the problem. Essentially, I think, I don't know whether it was the publishing company or him himself, decided on that name to almost capitalize on the moment that it occurred. essentially and that is a massive breaking point in the whole thing because again the dressing room feels as if they've just had all of their like issues and he you know it's not just this court case that he goes into in that book it's all the things that he's done while he's leads manager suddenly publicized and I think there was a massive break between the dressing room which previously saw O 'Leary as a young up-and-coming manager who they all got on with and the manager himself who i think it's probably fair to say started acting differently with them and they all lost an element of trust of respect ian hart told the story about how gary kelly had been dropped at one point and when o 'leary turned up a thorpe arch and kelly waved the irish flag on the the banner at the top of the training ground and essentially said you know i'm irish you're irish why aren't you playing me anymore and it was those sort of things that started spilling out and like the players stopped liking O 'Leary.

52:12I think O 'Leary had an issue in the dressing room and it's the sort of like undersaid thing, like the money and all these things are a big thing, but like the atmosphere, the dressing room, it just collapsed basically. Leeds were top of the table on New Year's Day 2002. Top five at that time were separated by just five points. But following the verdicts and the first chapters of Leeds United on trial coming out, there was also this there was actually the 3-0 win against West Hambridge I'm not sure if that was a game you were at which was I guess the high point of that season with your friend Mark Viduka in full effect left by Smith and he's onto it from Fowler Alan Smith looking for Viduka it's a wonderful start to the new year for Leeds United yeah freezing cold January the 1st top of the league as well because it was a night game presumably it was on the television but yeah won that 3-0 top of the league going into the new year.

53:09And then we went to Cardiff four or five days later. Right. To win the fourth division, FA Cup. And obviously, if you looked at her, it's not a sliding doors moment because it's just a random, you know, there's just an FA Cup tie. But the peak is West Ham. We lose at, I did an incredible day. You know, I was in the away end that day. There's all sorts flying at us and there's all sorts happening outside. And then, but after that game, we just went into a complete nosedive. Right. Nothing, nothing was right again. failed to win a single one of their next nine matches just before that game is it true that O 'Leary said that he wanted to get the game moved to the Millennium Stadium so playing against Cardiff the final in those days what he said was we're going to start I think it was him who said it time doors my mind he said we're going to start the FA Cup in Cardiff and finish it in Cardiff because the final was held at the Millennium back then so that was but that you know that was just fuel for Cardiff well yeah you are going to start and finish in Cardiff but you're going to finish at Ninian Park and like for people that don't remember Ninian Park was a hostile place to go and I think they had over 20 ,000 for the first time in ages and talking of Richard's talked about you know people on boards coming out on pitch obviously they had Sam Haman coming in and that was pretty you know insightful at the end of that game planting a Welsh flag behind the goal no?

54:36Yeah and it's rare in football where you can kind of you know that a game is a turning point for a club but I think anyone watching that match kind of I remember thinking oh it's over for Leeds which is ridiculous because they were top of the Premier League but like from then on Why? Almost like you could feel something change in the ether of football It just felt like all the hubris had just sort of piled up in Cardiff and rained down on them. And, yeah, that was the beginning of the end. Is that how it felt at Ninian Park, Richard? No, I wouldn't say so. With hindsight, it looks like that. It was more, you know, Amatai will back me up on this, we're rubbish in the FA Cup.

55:18So it just seemed like, yeah, another episode of how we flopped. And I thought, well, we'll bounce back, you know. But like you say, we then didn't win the other eight games. and then you thought, well, you knew the finances were bad by that stage. Stories were sort of coming out, creeping out. You thought if they miss out on the Champions League again, then God only knows where it's going to take us from then. And obviously, that's exactly what happened. We soon found out Leeds made a miserable exit from the UEFA Cup against PSV Ironhofen, got beaten as well by key rivals in the race for the Champions League places, Chelsea, Newcastle and Liverpool.

55:54ended up finishing fifth again just one spot outside where they needed to be amitai then the bad stuff starts happening pretty rapidly you get david o 'leary sacked uh that summer yeah i remember where i was when i found out i was on i was walking back to my mum's car at in year six at primary school oh my god and someone shouted from another car o 'leary's gone

56:22wow okay uh were there other cars shouting about the fact that now everyone knew that leads were 80 90 million in debt well the the thing that is really weird to me is the fact that i was 10 years old and super aware of the of the debt situation and like the idea that we had to pay down the debt and you know over the next like year there's you know the non the the idea of um professor john mckenzie the the professor of economics coming in to to sort of par down the debt and you know plcs why did i know what a plc was at the age of 10 uh the idea that i was aware that chelsea's debt was actually worse than leeds right and i was like right they'll be they'll they'll be doing the same thing soon and then roman roman abramovich rocks up and gets them into the champions league instead right um so like it was it that summer was very strange because you've got to remember as well there was the world cup rio ferdinand was the best defender at the tournament there were a number of leeds players in the squad nigel martin should have come on against brazil and england wouldn't have got knocked out if he did um correct and because david seaman was injured i will i will say this for the rest of time and everything seemed relatively hunky-dory then like o 'leary's going terry venables comes in like again it's really easy to forget that venables started the next season with two like big wins and then bow you left and that again felt like a bit of a breaking point because he was probably at the very least like one of the best two or three players in the team, like a lot of the time he was the best player in the team and he'd been brilliant in those two matches.

57:50And then he goes and suddenly the team is relatively useless again. But then again, beat Man U quite early in the season. And I think that sent us quite high up the table as well. So it's not as if it was like suddenly, bang, everything's bad. It was like, there's a debt situation going on here and players have to be sold, but it's kind of like okay for a period of time. Right, until it very suddenly wasn't. So Boyer went, Ferdinand went. When did Rio go to? He went in the summer. In the summer for actually a profit for Leeds. The other sales weren't quite so advantageous because by this point, everybody knew that Leeds needed to sell.

58:27De Cor went, Fowler went, Keane went, Woodgate went, which must have really stung Richard. It did, and that led to the infamous press conference, which body language experts the world over have looked at between Ridsdale and Venables, where basically they had the back to each other and that's what Rizdale came out with is we've lived the dream. We'd known it had been over for a long, long time but you knew in that moment that time really had passed. O 'Leary, people point to, oh, why did they ever sack him when they were fifth? O 'Leary failed. We didn't win a trophy. That group that was like this, this was Leeds United's chance, which we'll never have again, to establish itself at the top table of English football for a decade because Howard Wilkinson had built that academy.

59:12The players that came out of it should have guaranteed Leeds 10 years. If you had the right players, like they did initially with De Corp and Viduca, if you had the right sort of players to that and get the proper mix, we could have been up there. We could have been part of the big six now. You never know. But instead, O 'Leary got it wrong, badly wrong. And there's no point finishing fourth if you've been told to finish third. There's no point finishing fifth if you've been told to finish fourth. and the club was needed to finish in those third and fourth, the Champions League money. Although, I mean, equally constructing a situation in which you need to finish a specific position in a league of 20 teams is making yourself a real hostage to fortune.

59:55Dr. Bill Gerrard had a great description of the spending that overtook Leeds' practices as vanity over sanity, which I think sums it up pretty nicely. March 2003, Venables is sacked. Ridsdale steps down as chairman shortly afterwards. The football club are by now over£100 million in debt. Peter Reid takes over. Mark Viduka with his late run of goals keeps Leeds up. They finish 15th. And the following season, though, it all comes to an end and Leeds are relegated for three seasons in the Championship. I'm summarising wildly here. followed by relegation to League One resulting in administration, a 15-point penalty and the club coming in within pretty short distance of disappearing altogether, Amitai.

1:00:48Is that fair? Yeah, I mean, again, this is, you know, hyper aware of this. I was a teenager at this point. Oddly enough, I think for a lot of Leeds fans, it was a bit of a galvanizing moment when the club dropped into League One because, you know, to go from the Champions League into the Championship, I think stuff started to, they lost the playoff final against Watford, would have been an opportunity to get back to the Premier League. And I think by the point they were relegated to League One, a lot of people had lost, not lost interest, but it definitely dipped off. League One, the initial run there, it was a run of five straight wins that meant the 15 points immediately disappeared, the minus 15.

1:01:24They then went on an incredible run. That season got to the playoff semifinals, season after got to the playoff final, season after that got promoted back to the championship. beat Man U at Old Trafford. The whole run, I mean, admittedly, this might be because of my age, but it felt like a moment where the club kind of came back together a bit. I think, unfortunately, what then happened was there was a bit of stagnation in the championship. Ken Bates owned the club, and I think investment levels weren't at the level that a lot of fans would have wanted to see. There were the Chilino years. And then I think stuff started to get back onto a bit more of an even keel.

1:01:58But it did feel as though relegation happened and then it was just misery for a long period of time. And that was just the sense amongst Leeds fans. And it took a long time to get that back, basically. Richard, looking back on it all, was it worth it? And how badly did this affect Leeds as a town? City. As a city. Yeah, it's very much a city. Leeds still thrived, you know, when it's nightlife and everything like that. But, you know, doing a Leeds became part of the football lexicon. You know, that's how people spoke. I mean, you know, and it's not nice to be known for that. It's just, obviously it wasn't worth it to have those, you know, those two.

1:02:42Actually, I was looking at the two years together, the UEFA Cup runs in the semi-final, qualifying for the Champions League and then the semi-final and the Champions League and great, great times. But it certainly wasn't worth then what happened, what followed for the next 15, 16 years and as I say, that was Leeds' moment to actually become part of the top table of permanent fix-offs. We're back in the Premier League now, we have three seasons up recently but the Gays moved on without us or the top end of the Gays moved on without us and if Leeds stay up this season, next season will be all about finishing 17th and the season after that will be all about finishing 17th because that's where we are in the food chain at the moment because you've got Newcastle, who are the richest club in the world, but because of the rules, they're not allowed to spend the money that they've got.

1:03:32So even if we were bought by some oil magnet, then we wouldn't, you know, the door just closed on us as a club. You know, we might win the FA Cup because we're rubbish in the FA Cup, as we were discussing earlier. We lost to Histon since then and Crawley and all sorts of other great teams. But that was our time. And I just think it was a great chance for us to really establish ourselves, like build on what Howard had left. And we just fritted it all the way through, bad decision after bad decision. And by the time we'd gone down, our moment had really had passed. Right, and a door had closed, a door with PSR written on it, because I guess that's the, is that the reason that you say that's where we are and we've been missed out?

1:04:15Because the rules that have been brought in, largely, I guess, because of what happened to Leeds, now prevent... Yeah, I mean, you could argue that a club like Aston Villa are showing that you can sort of do it, although their wages to turnover ratio is not for the faint-hearted. But look at them, they've had to sell players. Great managers doing what he's doing this season despite the system. I just can't see us. Yeah, I think great managers can still do that. But I think the tragedy for Leeds is that it was a time of real flux. That was the last sort of real time of a shake-up in football, I think.

1:04:50You look at the fact that Deportivo and Leeds were both in semi-finals or getting to the latter stages of the Champions League and Valencia getting to the finals. Lazio as well. Yeah, and Lazio. Another club that went. And Amitai mentioned Chelsea were very similar to Leeds at the time. Obviously two clubs with a long rivalry and Chelsea kind of were the lucky team and kind of just about snuck through the door and have been established as a world power in football and Leeds didn't. And it could have easily been the other way around. And the thing is as well, if you look at the entire period, Richard mentioned the fact they didn't build a new stadium like Leeds are now looking to expand Ellum Road if you took someone from the year 2000 and dropped them into Ellum Road today they would be staggered by how similar that ground looks in so many ways like there has been no major infrastructure development at Ellum Road that's going to change soon the club are going to spend a load of money and redevelop Ellum Road when it's more expensive to redevelop a stadium than it would have been back then the training ground that's barely advanced in the time since there were quite a lot of work there when Bielsa was the manager, but it's not changed much.

1:05:54Howard Wilkinson left an incredible legacy for Leeds. When he won the title in 92, they built the new East stand, which massively expanded the stadium, and it still is the only modern stand in the stadium. He built Thor Parch, which was this incredible development centre for Leeds and the training ground as it stands today. And he brought through this generation of kids. You know, it's his responsibility that Alan Smith was there, Jonathan Woodgate, all these different players. and then the next period of success they left nothing and that's the that's the big thing is that if Leeds had managed to be one of these teams that snuck into the the elite as it was at the time right what could have happened in the intervening 15 years they could have been a Chelsea they could have been one of the teams that benefited from the new money in the Premier League all these different things and the thing is it's funny because it's almost as if Leeds made the financial missteps before you could get away with it as a Premier League team 10 years later they get all that debt it's fine because the tv money next year covers it but at that point there's no way of covering it unless you qualify for the champions league so having dragged themselves back up through hard work and and and all sorts of other things to make it back to the premier league what is the situation now having had ken bates having had chelino having had nobody knows who for a while as the owner of the club what what is the ownership structure so the owners now are the 49ers enterprises which is the investment arm of the san francisco 49ers and i think the big difference now to be honest to what feels like anyone who's run the club for the last 15 years is it's people who are basically sensible sport related people who understand money who understand recruitment admittedly for a very different sport but they understand all of these different concepts And they've essentially, the focus has kind of been putting in place the different structures a sporting institution needs to succeed.

1:07:43Because like realistically, the end goal for them at the end of it is to make their money back and then some and for all of their investors. It doesn't mean they're like, you know, throwing everything at it now. It doesn't mean they're taking crazy risks or anything like that. They're just trying to do it quite sensible. Well, even on Transfer Deadline Day when Leeds, you know, had funding that they thought about signing Jürgen Strand Larsson. and obviously he went to Palace and they could have just splurged on someone else but they didn't and that's the sort of sensibility that I don't think we saw 25 years ago.

1:08:13No, and it's nice being sensible but you can see how the other kind of behaviour is so intoxicating. Yeah, and I would argue that to Amitai's point about how Leeds were just a little bit early and could have got away with it later on, Leeds at the turn of the century turned the Premier League into a more compelling product which made the TV companies pay more money So they almost like enhanced the league, but didn't get the benefit themselves. Living the dream. There you go. Richard, they're back, so we can be happy about that. Have you had a chance while we've been chatting to think about Duncan's question about the 10 clubs who have been to the Champions League semifinals only once?

1:08:55So far, we've had Schalke. Villarreal get to the semi-once, Villarreal? They did, but they did it more than once. More than once. All right. Sorry. Duncan, I feel we could be here for some time. You could give out hints or just answers. Well, there's another Premier League club. Another Premier League side. Went to the seven finals. Relatively recently. Got to the final. Spurs, yeah. Correct. The most recent one, arguably very forgettable because it was the COVID season. The German team. Oh, Borussia Dortmund. No, hang on. They've been in loads of times. With a fizzy drink. Oh, RB Leipzig. RB Leipzig.

1:09:32RB Leipzig. Correct. there's a team from the capital of a country that James is quite familiar with so Valacio no Roma Roma the Roman Tata yeah 18 is that four I think we're up to four now yeah and that's the four most recent ones back to Schalke then it gets a bit harder Marseille nope

1:09:57don't look at me um we've mentioned one of these things Richard's got one and are we including european cup no this is champion what we've we've talked quite a bit about um i mean i think the best place to get to this team is via carcassonne oh deportevo yeah psv in 2004 of ajax have they only been there once no all the months they've been loads so now we've got three left to get four actually another German team very much the in 2001 or 2002 now we're back to the 90s in 98-99 a Ukrainian team that's a clue and then in what I can only describe as a pleasant look at how egalitarian the Champions League was in the Red Star, Belle Grey?

1:10:57Nope. We're looking for a Greek team. Oh. Not like A.K. Athens. No. Olympiacos. No. Panathinaikos. All right. And then there's still more. This is less compelling than I thought it was going to be. one last one. And it's a French team from 95. Ooh, not Lyon. No. A French team. Ooh, Paris Saint-Germain. No. No, they've been loads. Lille no what's the name in French Lens no Montpellier no Nantes Nantes yeah right right wow all those clubs good knowledge yeah amazing Duncan thank goodness there's only 10 of them yeah could have gone back further but I think I think we made the right decision all right magnificent Richard thank you so much for being with us you're in Wales as we speak or I am yes Wales adjacent, yeah, on the border, because Rixson have got a big game against Millwall coming up this weekend.

1:12:00They have, yeah. It's a big one, 5th v6th in the Championship. Wow. All right. We're looking forward to seeing your reaction to that on The Athletic and the rest of their dramatic push for promotion campaign. Thank you so much for being with us today and look forward to speaking to you again soon, either on Leeds or the Rob and Ryan show. Duncan, thank you for being with us today. I look forward to speaking to you as well soon. And Amitai, do come by soon again. Thanks for having me. No, no, it was a pleasure. And producer Charlie and producer Jesse, thanks to you. Listen, if you've enjoyed today's Totally Extra, we've got a whole load of retro-themed shows available.

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