Totally Extra: Nicolas Anelka…misunderstood?

0:01The Athletic FC.

0:08It's Totally Extra, our podcast with our portfolio. And today we're getting together to talk ballon d 'or and a kid who made it through a trap door for a career full of sliding and slam doors. That and much, much more in this Totally Extra.

0:30Thank you.

0:43Available at your leisure and extra slow for your pleasure. It's Totally Extra featuring today Duncan Alexander. All right, Duncan. Hello, James. You're fresh back from your holidays. I am. Were they nice? They were. Yay! Here and never taking that nose from the grindstone, Julian Laurence.

1:01Julien Laurens: Bonjour, James. Bonjour, ça va? Ça va très bien, merci. And also, live from his living room, it's Michael Coxie Cox. All right, Michael. Hello. Michael, you're at home because you've been having a dining room table delivered this morning. Yeah, it's already happened. I thought an 8 till 12 time slot would keep me waiting till 11.59, but actually it came at 8.01, so I can't complain. That's so satisfying. So you could still have come. I could have, yeah. Had they been more specific, I could have actually come into the studio. Right. Or we could have come round to yours. Yeah. Imagine if we did come round to yours, Michael, what would you cook for us?

1:41Well, nothing, because I haven't assembled my dining room table, to be honest. So, yeah. Right. Probably would have got a takeaway pizza or something. Applying your imagination for a second to the scenario, were we to be coming round, what one meal would you wish to impress us with?

1:56Julien Laurens: I bet Cox is a great cook, you know. He won't admit it, but I'm sure he can do some cool stuff. I'm all right. I don't know. I might do a curry or something for you. Really? Yeah. Do you have a signature move in your curry? Is there an ingredient that you like to use to set it apart from every other common or garden curry? A lot of coconut oil is my preference. Oh, yeah? Coconut oil. Nice. Sort of a go-and vibe, perhaps. Yeah, I'm in. I'm in for sure. All right. Duncan, could you go a curry? Duncan is a cyclist he does like proper diets thank you Jules because among the many many letters that we've had I say letters among the many messages

2:39Michael Cox: down the PO box earlier getting those out that we've had in this week is this from Dean talking about other sports as you know Duncan's second sport is cycling is it second would you say second sport oh yeah first well yeah arguably Joint first. Really? Yeah. Photo finish. Dean was asking, can you ask Jules if he still follows cricket and what other sports he has on the go at the moment? Jules, what would you... Football first. Football first. Real Madrid second, golf third or whatever.

3:10Julien Laurens: In that kind of order. What's second for you? NBA. Or basketball in general. The European Championships are coming soon which should be fun because there's a lot of big NBA players playing and some not playing but some are. Great. And then, yeah, I love cricket. still cricket cycling we were discussing with Dunk just now the French guy who won the stage of the Vuelta yesterday amazing yesterday as we record as we record with an amazing like Mario Kart power up exactly so true amazing so yeah I love all sports as you know I watch every sport excellent what about cricket holds your attention in a busy sporting calendar you mean in cricket yeah Yeah, there's so much sport on there.

3:57Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your time is precious.

3:59Julien Laurens: Yeah, but test series are still the best for me. And obviously, I'm not... I don't mean which cricket. I mean, what about the sport of cricket leads you to not change channels? I think it's more the fact that when I moved here 20 years ago, my first flat share was near Lourdes, which I'd never really heard of Lourdes before. I live near there. I know, so I was not far from you. And cricket was on Channel 4 at the time, if you remember, so on free TV for everybody to watch and I was just fascinated by this weird sport for us French people you know and I really I really liked it and then my kids are all playing and uh and I think it's an amazing sport with great what I love the most is that it's an individual sport and a team sport in the same time which I find it amazing because team sport are usually team sport and individual sport individual sport unless you play double a tennis or a kind of Davis Cup based still bit different but this is very much an individual within a team sport right which i think is great i was watching a show yesterday which described football as the most individual of the team sports but maybe we'll get on to what that program was one-on-one with someone just you and the bowler like you can be at the crease right so fair michael you famously love rugby and everything that goes along with it.

5:17Yeah, well, actually, as I'm sitting here, my coasters, you know, I'm going along with... Love it. Michael's got a polka dot coaster, a green coaster, a yellow coaster, and the other one will be what? A combined coaster, is it? It's the white one, it's the young jersey. Oh, young. Young jersey, yeah. Fair. Who said that, James, about football being the most individual of a team's thoughts? It's quite an interesting take. It was said, I think, in a wonderful documentary I saw called Anelka Misunderstood, which could have been subtitled Anelka and I took it personally.

5:57Okay, interesting. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was somewhere yesterday. Yeah, I think it was in there. But Anelka, very much the subject of the latter part of today's show. So thanks to this message from Lavanham Teacher, a.k.a. Rob Nabb, who says, an excellent listen, and here's a request for a topic. There was a mention by Michael Cox on a recent Totally Gold of doing an Enelka special. Why not deliver on that just the five years later? So there you go. Why, Michael, did you feel we should do an Enelka special? To be honest, I can't remember saying this. This was five years ago. I don't know. At the end, you can judge whether that was a wise suggestion or not.

6:39Excellent. Or the listener can judge. Yeah, absolutely. Also at the end, we'll reveal the answer to today's quiz question, which, Duncan, you very graciously agreed to provide.

6:49Michael Cox: I have, yes. As you've sensationally revealed, we're talking about Nicolas Anelka today. Most people will remember that the first Frenchman to score in the Premier League was Mr Eric Cantona. but can you name the three French players to score their first goals in the Premier League in between Cantona and Anelka when Anelka did it in 1997 so three other French players scored for the first time in the Premier League between Cantona and Anelka right okay and presumably we shouldn't guess now because that would spoil the well yeah that would spoil it I mean I think we can all have a thing for a bonus point if you get the one after Anelka I mean I'll probably give a cash prize for that one Cash prize.

7:31Wow. One more thing from this busy mailbag. A Hugo getting in touch to say, greetings from Mexico. Hola, Hugo. Love your show. It's a great way to practice English, says Hugo. Jules, you obviously learn English. Yes, absolutely. So very, very well.

7:51Julien Laurens: You know my favorite one for Hugo. Is it shooting boots? No, not shooting boots, especially not that one. But argy-bargy, Hugo. Just no argy-bargy. How would you define argy-bargy for Hugo? Basically just getting into a bit of a fight, really. So Pelear is fighting in Spanish. With argy-bargy, is there a bit of a sense that there's something slightly comic or over - Handbags. Demonstrative about it as well. Yeah, argy-bargy. So an actual scrap, an actual nasty scrap, that wouldn't be argy-bargy. No, I don't think so.

8:26Michael Cox: That would be a melee. We pivot to French for that. Hugo can learn both French and English. Is it Hugo Sanchez, former Real Madrid? Doesn't say. Perhaps his desire for anonymity points to that very solution. Anyway, all right, very good. That's enough from you, listener. Let's open our big old almanac. This is the Totally Football Show with James Richardson, part of the Athletic FC Podcast Network.

8:55This week in football history, We're currently recording this at the arse end, as it's known, of August. 30th of August, 1982. Ballon d 'Or winner Pavel Nedved was born, that's what, 53 years ago? He's 53 now for us. Ballon d 'Or winner Pavel Nedved. There'll be those who go, he won the Ballon d 'Or, but he did. Off the back of the 2003 Champions League final. Who else? one of the worst Champions League final well one of the most tactically fascinating ever are there any other players that make you think wow he won the Ballon d 'Or Michael? Rodri for me yeah maybe I mean I've got to say Nedved wouldn't be on that list for me I mean he was fantastic in 2003 and I think if he's not remembered as the best player in the world for a certain period it's probably because he unfortunately missed the 2003 Champions League final because he was suspended.

9:56And then he got injured in the Euro 2004 semi-final. And if he'd stayed on the pitch, maybe Czech Republic would have beaten Greece. But I thought he was fantastic. I must say, of all the players I've ever seen, he's probably the one who's changed my mind the most. I wasn't a fan of him at Lazio. I thought he was incredibly inconsistent in and out of games. But when he went to Juventus, he turned from a kind of inconsistent winger to an incredibly dominant number 10. And during that, around the time when he actually won the Ballon d 'Or, It felt like every week he was scoring 30-yard strikes into the top corner.

10:28He was such a good player.

10:52Sorry, that doesn't answer your question. Not at all. He certainly wouldn't be on that list for me. It'll be Zidane for you.

10:58Julien Laurens: Yeah, of course. We know that. Let's not go there. OK. We keep that for Zidane special. I mean, let's be honest. The event has improved massively when they got rid of Zidane in Port-Nedal. Like, there's no question about that.

11:10Michael Cox: I mean, Stanley Matthews won the first one, age 41, which feels like a bit of a lifetime achievement award. And it's always quite baffling that 25 months after Shevchenko was Ballon d 'Or, he was scoring two goals against Wickham in the League Cup semi-final so quite a four for the man indeed by the way Pavel Nedved and his wife Ivana have two children and their name yours? Pavel and Ivana oh you love that yeah in which case you'll salute Jose Mourinho and his wife Matilda also have two children are they called?

11:45Julien Laurens: Matilda and Jose Junior there you go yeah also in the almanac 31st of all what about Michael Owen? Is Michael Owen on your list? Well, you know, I... His children are cool, I don't know. He was good, wasn't he, that year?

12:00Michael Cox: He was, but... Yeah, no, I'm just asking, because... He was good, but it's funny to think of him being Ballon d 'Or a little bit, no? I think possibly because Ballon d 'Or sounds to me like a European award, and he is so very, very English and such a kind of English football figure. Even though he went to Real Madrid, he went there as such an Englishman abroad that it completely didn't work out, so, yeah. Maybe the thing worth pointing out to younger listeners is that when Michael Owen won it, it wasn't such a big thing. I mean, there wasn't a ceremony, there wasn't a big gala. Basically, just a load of journalists from around Europe voted.

12:35You would maybe see the full results if you happen to buy World Soccer Magazine. And he just got presented with the award, I think, before a game at Anfield, the same way they present kind of, you know, Player of the Month or something like that. It wasn't such a big deal. So, yeah, not taking anything away from him. But there wasn't that much discussion about it then. And I think Owen said the same himself. He looks back now and probably he didn't realise at the time what a big deal it was, really. At that time, was it already combined? Was it already open to players from outside of Europe? Oh, yeah, that changed in the mid-90s.

13:08Yeah, 96 maybe. George Royer was the first one to win a non-European play. All right. 31st of August, 1997, so very much on this week in history. Ronaldo or phenomenal debuted for Inter against Brescia a debut that was a little bit overshadowed by events because that morning we all got news that Princess Diana had died in Paris I'd flown up to San Siro for this game and we'd heard on the way and we got the Channel 4 we'll find out if the game's still going ahead and it was and then is there a minute silence and there wasn't touchingly there was a player on the field called Diana, which led to a little bit of awkwardness for Peter Brackley on comms.

13:54But anyway, Inter promptly went a goal down to Dario Hubner. I'm sure we all remember Dario Hubner to thank her with fondness. And then Ronaldo's debut got overshadowed by a fellow called Alvaro Rokoba, who we've done a Golanzo one. Very happily go back and do him again in a future episode because what a player. What a character. Came off the bench, scored two absolute screamers.

14:55Marco, do you remember every single game ever and where you were when you watched it? Do you remember those goals, Recoba's debut? Well, yeah, I didn't watch it live because I was on holiday in Mallorca, but I remember where I was when I didn't watch that game, yeah. Magnificent. More because of the Diana thing, I should say, rather than the game. Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

15:16Michael Cox: Well, it's a seismic week, that, because there was Diana and then either side of that event with the opening of the Reebok Stadium and Pride Park. That's what she would have wanted. Yeah. Yeah. All right, love and teacher. Let's get on to your request. Nicola and Nelka.

15:42This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli Kaye and the very best football writers around.

15:57Julien Laurens: And it's Anelka who gets this ball. He's at 30 metres. Nadon is out. The third pass of Anelka and the third pass of Parisian at the 80th minute. So, Nicolas Anelka... Anelka... Great change of pace from him. Beyond Batty, beyond Pearce. Anelka! The problem of Nicolas Anelka is the problem of all the young people who succeed very early. Probably the quickest I've ever seen. He was only 18, 19. Thierry was even more than a 200m runner where Nicolas Anelka would be gone.

16:38Michael Cox: I'll never forget Tony and Boldy and Martin Trying to kick him in training Because he was embarrassing them

16:55Michael Cox: His reputation stopped him going back to a bigger club and I just said to him in Chelsea come to Bolton and if you do what you normally do know what you can do somebody will come and buy you we'll sell you did he go to Chelsea? yeah Malouda nicely chipped across Tromper plays it back across and Anelka will score his second in the game and to be honest the gulp in class between France and England is quite clearly seen here as Anelka's onside and Anelka scores Anelka scores

17:25Julien Laurens: and Anelka scores the players of the club of France without exception They want to affirm their opposition to the decision by the French FF to exclude Nicolas Anelka.

17:49Nicolas Anelka, what a character. Jules, on one hand, a talent so big, many felt that he was an even better player than his contemporary Thierry Henry, including Thierry himself. But on the other, I'm not sure what word I'd use to describe him, but a difficult character, let's say. 14 different clubs, fell out with managers almost everywhere, tried to walk out on Wenger at Arsenal, he went on strike at Real Madrid, he inspired the famous French mutiny at World Cup 2010, was nicknamed in this country Le Sulk. Lots of listeners written in with their thoughts on this Paul Dungett says Why does Anilka seem to be the answer to every football trivia question?

18:34Michael Cox: Yeah, he does I mean, he's almost like the French version of Mick Quinn in that regard Or Mick Quinnell, perhaps But yeah, he's obviously played in lots of different derbies He's scored for lots of different clubs He weirdly kind of straddles a lot of different eras because obviously he started off in the 90s with Wenger at Arsenal but then was still going into the Barclaysman era in the 2010s. So although he never really hung around places very long, his longevity was admirable, I think. Yeah. I played in the North London derby, the Manchester derby, the Merseyside derby, Le Clasique, El Clasico, the Madrid derby, the Istanbul derby, the Shanghai derby and more Who Am I?

19:18That would be one. I am the only player in Premier League history to be banned for a goal celebration. Who am I? I am the only player with a YouTube comp called The Forgotten Legend who ruined his career because he couldn't shut his mouth. Who am I? One answer for all of those. Jules, is that a fair summary of Anelka's career?

19:38Julien Laurens: Yeah, I think so. It's a good start, certainly. I think there's more genius in him than a difficult character, although there is, there were his brothers who probably at the beginning of his career certainly were the ones who were guiding him in kind of all those arguments in a way and things like that, more than him himself at 16 or 17, 18. Then yeah, later on, he was tough. He still is tough now. He was tough. He was very much his own guy with very strong ideas and strong mind and strong character, more than in a different way to Thierry, who's also very strong and still is, but maybe doing things in a smarter way slightly than Nicolas, who would just go for the clash and didn't mind really.

20:23Julien Laurens: He just loved the clash on the pitch, off the pitch. And it's just a shame, I think, that people remember more all those clashes more than what genius he was, because I think he was really an incredible player. All right, well, let's talk about, before perhaps some of the controversies, how good he was. Michael, you take a famously, iconoclastic approach to some of the French legends. What's your take on Anelka? Well, I think he was a really good player. I think there's now a lot of players who are broadly like Anelka in terms of their upbringing around, coming from Paris or the outskirts of it, playing for France, having parents who are from outside France.

21:01I think he was probably one of the first players along those lines in the Premier League. And I think he was an unbelievably talented player, quite individualistic in his early days there was a big thing that he used to kind of run very head down quite hunched shoulders wasn't really too aware of his teammates and I think he's one of those players you could say oh he could have become better he could have become a world beater but I think when you look at his career and everything he did and his longevity for a player that was all about speed and a player who was always kind of spoken about as having disciplinary problems he played for a long time and he was you know he was playing in the premier league what 17 years after his his debut he was around a long time so i don't have particularly fond memories of him because he wasn't a player that was easy to love but yeah he was a he was a fantastic player and provided some massive moments for for yeah some of the biggest clubs in the world he has a documentary which came out about five years ago 2020 which i mentioned before misunderstood.

22:06In there, it becomes quite clear that there's very much a tight coterie of pro Enelka people. And then there's everybody else. What's his position among French players? How's he viewed there?

22:17Julien Laurens: The thing is, he didn't do that well for the national team anyway. He had 69 caps and only 14 goals. More moments again of difficult moments, let's say the 2010 World Cup being obviously the pinnacle of it and then some moments where you remember or you rewatched the England-France game in 1999 at Wembley obviously where he just destroyed that defence pretty much I mean him and Zidane was just incredible and I remember the headlines after that game thinking like wow okay this is the number 9 that we have for the next 15 years and this is going to be incredible of a team that was already a World Cup winning team about to become you know European champions as well and yeah, actually that never really happened for him with the national team.

23:01Julien Laurens: So that's why maybe he's way lower in the pecking order. I just think his thing was misunderstood because he felt it was always him, the problem. People would always point the finger at him instead of just letting him be who he wanted to be, which maybe was just not the way football was working at the time either. Yeah, as I kind of hinted before, I feel like he took everything incredibly personally. There's one comment he makes about Steve Clarke in the first game of the season for West Brom, taking him off, because the game's goalless after 70 minutes, so he takes him off, and Nelka felt that that was Steve Clarke committing the sin of pointing the finger at Nelka, and he said, so that's it, well, that's the game you want to play, that's it, you got nothing from me.

23:45Julien Laurens: Yeah, I think one of the problems was you could take him out of Paris, but you could never take Paris out of him, and the cancel estate he grew up with and stuff, which made him so tough, not just him, but a bit like what Cox was saying, a lot of those French players coming from those banlieue, whether they're from Paris or Marseille or Lyon or wherever, where you just, you have that in you to just don't accept injustice of things that you feel are not fair and then you just express it in the wrong way, really. And that's why I think he should have been smarter at times, but that was very much who he was too.

24:17I think the thing as well, just to give some context about when he first came along, obviously France won the World Cup in 98. The big thing about France was that they didn't have a good number nine in that tournament and part of the reason that there was so much hype about Enelka was he felt like you know the final piece of the jigsaw going forward to Euro 2000 the slight irony was it was the two guys he came through the kind of under 17s under 19s with Henri and Trezeguet who were the ones who were you know the stars of that tournament but actually Enelka played a big role I mean he started in the semi-final but yeah he was basically cast as you know even though France won the 98 final the story was about Ronaldo as much as France you know Ronaldo dropping out and I think Enelka was basically cast as almost the new Ronaldo and maybe that was part of the reason that he eventually went to Real Madrid for Arsenal but for most of that summer it seemed that he was going to go to to Italy Juventus and Lazio were the ones circling and personally I remember that that transfer saga in 99 I mean it's almost standard these days with the kind of alexander isak thing but i'd never seen a transfer saga like that i mean every two hours he'd go on to see facts or whatever and there would be he'd be joining a new club it'd be real madrid it'd be eventus be lazio we stay at arsenal his agents were i mean i don't think i'd ever really seen agents spoken about as much as his his brothers basically they were cast as these incredibly devious uh you know troublemakers again in a way that i think we almost accept agents are spoken about these days so it was it was everything about an elka was very very strange and a lot of that stuff did overshadow the fact that he was a

26:01Michael Cox: brilliant footballer yeah i think that's a really good point and it's for again for younger listeners it's hard to remember what english football was like in the 90s and michael mentioned ronaldo but we'd had that Ronaldo season at Barcelona when he just had a succession of one-on-ones and going around the keeper. And when Anelka broke through at Arsenal, it felt like English football had that. And we hadn't really had that. It had just been two strikers up top. You know, big man, little man, feed-off scraps, etc. And I think people forget in 98-99, Anelka and Bergkamp combined for 10 goals. I think Bergkamp worked better with Anelka than he did with Henri in a lot of ways.

26:36Michael Cox: Henri used to pull wide and Anelka sort of slipped through more.

26:48Michael Cox: I mean it's slightly underlined by the fact that the next duo to even match that was Ryan Fraser and Callum Wilson in 2019 but you know the point stands that I think because Arsenal didn't win the league in 1998-99 that their kind of performances that season are less celebrated than maybe the season before but Anelka was just outstanding that year. Mark, you called him, I'm not sure if it was an incredible footballer or a great talent, but what was so great about him? What made him stood out? What earned him the comparisons to Brazilian Ronaldo? though well I think fundamentally it was the speed and I think I wrote a book about the development of the tactics in the Premier League called the mixer and there were certain players and teams that were obviously going to be a part and then when you kind of think about it more and read about it more and Elko is one of those who I hadn't really considered being such a fundamental you know almost game changer but actually he was because he was at the start he was just cast as someone who had speed when you listen to his interviews he actually considered himself more for number 10 he always wanted to play basically the Dennis Burkamp role but Duncan mentions that you know he was a bit of a different player in terms of breaking the traditional partnership I think the interesting thing at this point which you wouldn't have had before and you certainly don't have since is he often got two strikers up front who were basically all about speed so when he went to Liverpool he played alongside Michael Owen and you would cast them as similar players and I mean maybe moving aside from the point but Arsenal had Henri and Viltord up front which again seems like a combination of quite similar players.

28:20England, their first game in 2002, you had a strike partnership of Michael Owen and Darius Vassell, who were two really small, quick players. So there was just this sudden obsession with, it's all about speed. And as Duncan mentions, you know, the Bergkamp-Enelka partnership, it was just so obvious what they were trying to do. Bergkamp would be between the lines and Elk would be running in behind. And there was a game, I think, against Leicester, I think Enelka scored a hat-trick of goals just from, to be honest, quite simple balls in behind. And this was an era where Premier League centre-backs were not recruited for their speed.

28:54They were recruited because they were really good in the air. So someone like Enelka, you could just chuck the ball in behind and he'd get there first every time. And of course, he was a little bit of a prototype, if you like, for Thierry Henry, who was his contemporary in the France youth teams, but had gone to Italy and famously was miscast a little bit, was often playing out wide, where he actually did pretty well in World Cup 98. But he hadn't yet become regarded as a centre-forward, whereas Anelka, whether it was where he wanted to play as a second striker or as the main number nine, was always just in the middle and running in behind.

29:26Lots of Arsenal fans getting in touch, talking about what could have happened if he'd stayed on at the club. I think, really, is there a player with as many what-ifs surrounding them as Nikolai Anelka, Liverpool as well, if Gerard Houli had chosen to keep him on as opposed to letting that lone end and bringing in El Hadjid Shuf. But Mustafa asks, did Anelka ever come close to reaching his full potential at any point of his career, Jules? What would you say? I mean, he says Bolton.

29:55Julien Laurens: Just quickly on what Michael was saying about the 1998 World Cup, because Anelka was part of that squad, that extended squad that Eime Jacquet called up first with 28 players instead of 22. and then with Trezeguet and Henri, they were the youngest one and nobody really knew who would be the sixth that would be left out and sent home just before the start of the tournament and I think there was a lot of people in France who really believed that Anelka had a place there in that 22 because he was already that good with Arsenal and I think him being left out by Jacquet and the way it happened late one night where they asked the players to stay over at Clairefontaine but Anelka I was like, F that, I'm coming home now.

30:35Julien Laurens: Why would I stay when you've just chucked me out, basically? And I think that was a scar that, for all the clashes that followed, that was the first one, really, when he was still so young, that almost was the kind of pattern and blueprint of all the other clashes that he would have through his whole career, pretty much, as we said, at every club. But for me, the Chelsea Anelka was just something very special. I don't know what the boys think about that. That one season where he has like 17 league goals or something like that and assist, he was playing first when Drogba was injured as a lone striker, then in support of Drogba either wide or behind, all of that.

31:15Julien Laurens: I thought there were times in that season where he was unplayable. And it was, certainly from what he told me, that was the happiest moment of his career.

31:23Michael Cox: Drogba was there. Alak to Drogba. Now can make him the run off him. Chance here for Chelsea to sew it up around Schwarz. Easily taken. Well taken. Good goal by Chelsea.

31:34Julien Laurens: OK. At the beginning of Arsenal, obviously, but yeah. Right. And Bolton. Don't forget Bolton. Yeah, he liked Bolton. But Bolton was just not a football that he enjoyed compared to what... And it was just not Chelsea, not London, not the Champions League, nothing like that. But yeah. But at City, he had good times. At Bolton, he had good times. Even in Turkey, he was happy. But nothing like, I think, that Chelsea season. Tomas, Anelka's reputation has always preceded him. But he enjoyed a successful partnership with Didier Drogba at Chelsea and even appear to accept that he had to defer to the Ivorian at times.

32:02Can you lift the lid on their relationship?

32:05Julien Laurens: Yeah, but Nico was very happy, I think, to be the second striker, like Coxie said, and just to be supporting. He often said to me, like, I love an assist. People don't realise how much I love an assist. People think I'm obsessed with goals and I'm very individualistic, which he probably was for most of his career. He was very much, like, again, very Parisian in the sense that I'm the best here, like nobody can touch me kind of thing, which Cherry was the same. And I think with Drogba, they had a very good relationship off the pitch. And Nicolas understood that if they were helping each other out, they would achieve great things.

32:38Julien Laurens: And again, I think the penalty miss in the Champions League final. Well, that's extraordinary because he comes on in that game. He'd only been at Chelsea for half a season. Misses after John Terry's slip, what proved to be the decisive kick. And he felt could never basically, he almost couldn't lift his head at Chelsea after he had a huge season I think the following campaign there and yet feels that that period was not a successful one he thinks that everybody just remembers that penalty means that by the way he thinks that he was thrown under the bus a bit by Avram Granbach bringing him on he hadn't touched the ball in the game just for penalties which is probably the easy excuse to say I missed but it's not my fault you know I can blame the manager kind of thing but it's happened to all the greats

33:23Michael Cox: Mark Noble and Elke I mean if he feels he's only remembered for that penalty miss, the compensation for him is it's not the penalty miss that everyone remembers from Chelsea in that shootout. So he's probably all right. Well, if you're looking at clubs where Anelka lived up to his potential, certainly not on that list would be Real Madrid, where the club he ditched Arsenal for after a tremendously successful time there under Arsene Wenger, lured away by Lorenzo Sanz for what was at the time a world record fee. And what followed was a bizarre spell at the biggest club in the world in which he failed to shine, then refused to train, went on strike and got suspended for 45 days with Sants telling the press that he was sick in the head.

34:11But eventually, and this is quite a rarity, Anelka came back and apologized and knuckled down and actually played a crucial role in their victorious Champions League campaign that year. But it's really hard to paint that half a season in a positive light.

34:28Julien Laurens: Yeah. I mean, he arrived there first day of training and there's no space for him in the dressing room. So just imagine you arrive and already you know that people don't like you and that you come here and people think that, especially the Spaniards, that you're there to take Raul's place in the team. And then you understand from minute one that this is going to be difficult already. And you're a young player that is just not built to manage those kind of situations. Say, don't worry, I'll settle in quietly. No, that was just not him. He says there wasn't even training kit available for him that day.

35:00Which I'm not sure. The kit I'm not sure. Do you think that's maybe standard behaviour in a club like Real Madrid's dressing room that you kind of have to fight for your place because there are so many people who have similarly galactic side egos. Yeah, but the animosity, you can arrive in a dressing room

35:19Julien Laurens: where you'll have to fight for your place, but to feel that people really don't want you there. I mean, Emmanuel Petit had the same when he left Arsenal for Barcelona, where he felt it was exactly the same situation to Anelka. He felt like everybody just were hating him kind of thing. And they were all Spanish. It's all talking in Catalan and things. It was just a nightmare.

35:38Michael Cox: It's very generational, isn't it? I mean, not just in sport and in football, but in like music and in lots of stuff. It was a much more toxic time. You know, people you were expected to sort of suffer before you enjoyed anything. And, you know, a lot of that has gone away. And some people like to paint that as a bad thing and hark back. But I would argue that, you know, a young player breaking through now has a far better chance of making it because they're treated like human beings.

36:05Julien Laurens: Yeah, I agree. Well, he was benched after what he thought was a good performance in the Classico and reacted by turning up to training, saying we have to talk. So the club said, we'll talk after training. He said, no, we talked before training. They said, we talked after training. He said, I'm not training. And that's where the strike began. Yeah. Which is a pretty unique approach. But again, that was very much him. You know, this is the impulsive impatience in him that I think, yeah, you can trace back to that childhood and growing up in Paris and that, just that instinct that he had of like, no, no, no, no, this is not your rules, it's my rules or it's the rules that...

36:47And additionally, the perceived lack of respect, which seems to shine through. If an action is taken, it's not just because that's a manager making a call for the team You could take this to 2010 in France, or you can look at Roger Lemaire and his comments, which I think are factual, that Lemaire would have to go down on his knees and beg him to return to the French national side. All the way through, it seems to be, if he feels that someone's not respecting him. And I guess you need that self-belief. A lot of players talk about this in order to be able to perform at that level, in order to be able to arrive as a teenager at Arsenal and shine so greatly.

37:22but it's that same self-belief that was, I guess, is also his undoing.

37:26Julien Laurens: Yeah, completely. I mean, of all the clubs we mentioned and all the managers that he would have played under, you count on one hand, maybe not even on three fingers, the ones that actually he would say understood him and he got on well with Arsene Wenger being the one, even if he left him very early and quickly. Arsene was the one, but you could understand why Arsene more than others, like Dominic, who Dominic would welcome a clash with anybody again. And Dominic and Alica would just never get on, ever, ever in any world, any era, nothing at all. And so you can see that side of his too. So I've got a finger here for Arsene.

38:06Who are the other two fingers for?

38:08Julien Laurens: I think there was something in Kevin Keegan that I really appreciated. Because Keegan was, I mean, the boys know more than me about Keegan, but Keegan as a manager. But Nicolas felt like, really, he would just let him be. There's some glorious quotes from Keegan on Van Huckernestad at Man City. He said, it would be stretching the truth if I said I found Nicolas easy to understand. He talks about, first of all, if training started at 10.30am, most players would go out 20 past, have a chat, do some stretches. Nicolas would stand in the doorway by himself. He would wait and wait and wait. And finally, when it reached 10.29am, he would walk out alone.

38:45He also mentions the bus waiting to leave for an away game and Nicholas has gone to the Trafford Centre and eventually turns up with shopping bags. Doesn't say a word to anyone.

38:55Julien Laurens: But it feels like on the pitch, he gave him all the freedom that he wanted, which a lot of other managers didn't do. All right. What about Big Sam, though? Has Nicholas spoken to you about it? Not to me, no. I don't know. I can't really remember too much of him at Bolton, I have to say. Michael, can you remember him at Bolton, Duncan? Yeah, it was kind of his rebirth, really. I mean, he went off to Turkey and I think there was a sense he wasn't going to come back. I mean, I think that was the time where he just converted to Islam. And I think there was a sense he was going to be at home in Turkey.

39:25And I mean, Bolton were punching above their weight at that time. But this was a player who had won the European Cup. He'd won the European Championship. He'd won the Premier League. You didn't expect him to pitch up at Bolton, even at a team who... I mean, they were getting in big name players, but they tended to be in their 30s and past their best. And Elka was still of peak age, really. And he had, I mean, it was a funny time because he had, he was basically there January to January, I think. So he didn't have a full season with Bolton, but he played so well that he was then snapped up by Chelsea, who at the time it was just them and Man United going for the league and the Champions League that season.

40:00So, yeah, it was a bit of an unusual situation. And I think there was always, I mean, he never stayed very long at any club, but I think of all of them, Bolton was the one where it was, OK, if he shows what he can do, he's not going to be at Bolton for five years and sure enough he was only there for one year

40:17Michael Cox: His first goal for Bolton was against Arsenal in the Premier League and it was just an absolute gets the ball on the left flank cuts inside and just absolutely pings it in and quite an early muted celebration I think, wasn't as big a scene in those days And now a nail cut

40:36A nail cut What a goal What a way to break your Bolton duck and it had to come against Arsenal, didn't it?

40:51You're listening to the Totally Football Show

40:52Michael Cox: with James Richardson. Now we do four times a week. Keep up to date with us on Insta and enjoy us in glorious Technicolor on YouTube at The Totally Show. Do you want to talk about France? Jules, do you want to talk about 2010? How much have you spoken to Anoko over the years?

41:10Julien Laurens: a good amount of time we were really close him and Doug his agent who grew up with him who were very similar to him who became his agent after his brothers kind of they never really stepped away but they were always there but like different and his family and Barbara his wife yeah it was we were yeah we I think we liked each other when he was in London yeah it was they were good times they were good times I really like him I'm completely biased here obviously right I really like him and it does seem that those who like him really like him. Yeah, he's a lovely guy. He's a really lovely guy. And yeah, of course, he's not perfect.

41:44Julien Laurens: Nobody is. But yeah, he's a kind guy. And I just think the first time I saw him, that made him laugh. He's 79. I'm born in 1980. So we're a year apart. But when you play for your county in France as a young player, you go to Clairfontaine, which obviously he went through the academy there before going to PhD. But he was there with the France on the 16th team. And our coach said, let's go and watch this game here. Clafontaine and there's this number nine who's going to play for France just keep you an eye on him because he's very special he more than Henri was the player that everyone was talking about he was 100 % and Thierry was very good obviously a year older again than Nicolas so we hear like pitch side on this like training pitch really where the under 16 were playing and you just you'd never seen anything like this before and maybe people would see Brazilian Ronaldo at that age or I don't know Messi at that age or somebody like that but we were and we were very good players who've been playing in really good teams with really good players overall too.

42:40Julien Laurens: And the two teams were full of very good players of that age too, but he was just so much better than anybody, just everything he would do. He could have scored 10 goals in that game and he was an under-16 youth international game. It was just unbelievable. And everybody was so shocked of how good he was. Just like that on a Wednesday afternoon he was or something. And he was like, wow, okay. And six months later, he debuted for PSG in a game where we were at the Paris des Princes and seeing these kids scoring as well, not long after making his debut, we're like, wow, okay, this is just very special.

43:12Julien Laurens: And that's why I think he could have probably, we go back to this, what if he probably should have or could have had a much better career than what he had in the end. Although, was he a precocious talent and the rest of football caught up with him a bit? Would that be fair? Well, no, because like Coxie said, at the beginning, it was very much the pace, just like, I'm going to make the run. If you're smart enough, you put the ball there and I'm going to score. Then I think he became a much better all-around footballer than when he was when he started. Technically, he was always very good, but not using it enough.

43:40Julien Laurens: At Chelsea, I remember times where he played almost as a 10 and was outstanding.

43:44Michael Cox: Yeah, there's very few footballers who can do that across their career. And Alan Shearer was one, obviously a similar sort of player when he broke through just pace and balls over the top. But then obviously he had knee injuries and other problems and then reinvented himself. And I think it's really impressive when a footballer can do that. And yeah, as we said earlier, the length of an Elke's career is testament to how good he was. I think I'm right in saying that when Chelsea signed Fernando Torres at a time when they already had Drogba and Anelka, the first game Torres played was against Liverpool.

44:17And Ancelotti actually played Drogba and Torres as the front two. And Anelka rose to number 10. And that's the extent to which he was, by that point, I think considered, you know, a pretty intelligent, much more selfless player who could link play. Now, I mean, that system didn't didn't particularly work, but I don't think that was anything to do with Anelka's lack of ability in that role. So yeah, he was, I mean, as often happens in football, you know, a player who is based around pace when they're 18 is a completely different player when they're 30. And I think Anelka, more so than some others, I mean, I'd probably say more so than Henri, to be honest, reinvented himself and was very good in basically that number 10 role that he'd often spoken about as his preferred position anyway.

45:02Julien Laurens: Yeah, I just completely agree with what Coxie said. I mean, Thierry evolved in the wide player, the winger that he was to that number nine that Wenger had for him in that place, replacing Anelka, but for Nicola to become this all-around much better player. And quite a rare profile at the time. Now you've got to be more of those number nines like Harry Kane who can play or Benzema. but at the time he was very much a rarity I think rarity it's a rarity in that kind of profile okay Jules you know him you like him when we talked about the number of things that are that have earned him the the nickname of La Salle of all of the ones that he might be misunderstood about what would you cite and what would you say about what happened in 2010 which he claims he was he He was the victim of that.

45:54I mean, the facts briefly there, he'd been recalled to the national team after his refusal to be considered anymore, sort of like three and a half years or something later. Dominic calls him back up. Things are going much better. France go to the World Cup in 2010 in South Africa. He is criticized at halftime of the game against Mexico, which is nil-nil. And an altercation follows with Dominic. L 'Equipe publish a front page which suggests that he's told Dominic to go and f*** yourself, you son of a b***h. The Federation decide to send him home. The players then decide to go on strike and refuse to.

46:33They come out of the team bus at the training ground. They shake hands and do autographs, and then they get back in and draw the curtains. And this surreal scene. Jules, I mean, your recollections of that, and how would you unpack all of that?

46:44Julien Laurens: I mean, we could do a whole show just on this, to be fair. That game is a bad game against Mexico, opening game. It's a team that has so much talent because Thierry is there too, Ribery is there, I speak, Gorkuf had had an amazing season. And yet there's so many issues within the squad. Even take Dominic aside, within the squad of jealousy and bullying, pressuring, there's so many issues with that squad anyway. The way it was built and put together. Then Dominic is there and he's just the wrong guy to be there. and straight after that game we all waiting all the press pack waiting to fly back to Cape Town I think when the where we were based and already we get a few messages from you know players and entourages saying like there was a massive clash at halftime something big happened everything etc etc so already in that first night it's rumbling and you know something bad happens I was always told that that's not the words he used and Nikola himself said it and told me.

47:47Dominic, years later in another documentary, says that Anelka told him to sort your s*** team out on your own. Exactly. Yeah.

47:55Julien Laurens: With maybe a bastard there and there. It was just not... But essentially, and turning his back on him. Dominic had told him not to drop deep or possibly to drop deep. Yeah, he was dropping too much around and Dominic wanted him to stay in the position that he was supposed to have. But that was not Anelka's game. Anelka was like, I need to touch the ball here in a game where France was so bad that Anelka felt like I need to do something. That's not his game, but it is the manager's game to tell your players what you think they should be doing. True. Although Dominic... If Pep Guardiola tells you to stay in your position or Jürgen Klopp, you do it.

48:31Julien Laurens: If it's Raymond Dominic, you think, I know more than you. That's certainly why a lot of those players were believing at the time anyway, which was also part of the problem. For us, Le Parisien, which obviously we were the big rival to L 'Equipe in breaking stories and stuff like that. We didn't publish those words. We published other words that we believe were the closest ones, like the ones you repeated. Okay. But the damage was done anyway. Whether he said that or not, once he was on the front page of L 'Equipe, this is it. It was so bad back home that there was just no way back for him. Does it matter that the words were different if he's turned his back on the coach at half-time and told him to sort his own shitty team out?

49:07Julien Laurens: Yeah, because what shocked everybody was that if he'd said, son of a b****, go and f*** yourself, basically. which you can say to a coach in a way I guess like you know this is not working what we're doing is not working sort this shit out also if he'd said all due respect although we don't have that kind of equivalent in French but yeah so after that it was just such a mess like you would not believe that strike that day it was unbelievable man I can't I still I can picture it so vividly in my head even now 15 years on of players and Thierry Henry you had some big senior players there and you just, oh my God.

49:48Emmanuel Petit said it looked like a hostage situation. This coach there with all the curtains drawn and every now and then there'd be a twitch someone peeking out the corner. He calls himself a victim of that and he just, I think, sees himself as a victim of so many of the situations that he's been at the centre of. But I guess it means something that the rest of the team actually went on strike ahead of the key game of their World Cup campaign in kind of loyalty to him.

50:13Julien Laurens: Yeah, absolutely. Because I think it's not just the fact that they liked him, but also everybody knew that's not what he said. And again, once that was published in L 'Equipe, there was just no way back. It's something that you, you know, you say something to your manager, he takes you off. The next morning you go and you explain yourself and you probably can move on, I guess. Once it was so public like that, with, again, things that were not said, with all those insults. There was just no way back. And Nicolas then felt he was the victim. Hence, he was never going to apologize for anything. Dominic was just, you know, probably reading in the cards somewhere what should happen now in the near future.

50:55Julien Laurens: And so it was just such a mess that, yeah, there was no way back. And then he went home on his own, which again looks so terrible and never played again for the national team. Yikes. All right, well, I can ask you in a second to your favourite Anelka moments. I did want to get in a couple of questions or a question about Liverpool because loads of people wrote in about what happened there, Hulier's decision akin to Decker not signing the Beatles. At the end of that, that very, very positive campaign that Anelka had spent at Anfield or a six-month loan spell rather, deciding to let him go and bring in El Hadjidjouf, which didn't work out too well.

51:34Why did that happen? so Gérard was never I mean obviously because Gérard says it was the brothers who had been difficult what behind his back were trying to link him up with other clubs yeah

51:45Julien Laurens: Gérard never got on with the brothers right and Doug who's also then part of the entourage they would say that Uli changed his mind after telling them I'm going to sign him permanently that everything had been agreed that he could stay on the same wages that he was on when he was on loan that Liverpool were paying off all of that the length of the contract everything he would stay in the same place they were living just everything and that at the last minute changed his mind to go and sign Eladji Jouf right just out of interest he was on loan from Paris Saint-Germain where he'd gone after they'd taken him back after he'd walked out on them yeah to go to Arsenal they'd taken him back after he'd left fled Real Madrid essentially yeah so why did he leave PSG to go on loan to Liverpool it had not worked out for him with Luis Fernandes as a manager it's just again it was the wrong cast Luis as a manager probably closer to Dominic than to Arsene Wenger if you see what I mean but him coming back home was just incredible although it was a terrible idea obviously we know that but I think we knew at the time too and just yeah never really worked out although he debuted quite well the beginning was okay and then after that it just exploded like too often with him

53:01Michael Cox: okay if you want to know how long ago it was a lot of the coverage of Anelka signing on loan at Liverpool made a big thing of the fact that he was going to be on£30 ,000 a week. A shocking amount. I mean, that's a PL2 player now, isn't it? Remarkable. Your favourite Anelka moment, Michael? For me, not necessarily my favourite moment, but the one that sums him up for me is when he scored the second goal in the 1998 FA Cup final, which is a kind of classic Anelka goal at that time just to ball him behind. He runs onto it and finishes one-on-one with the keeper. And I think the interesting thing about that is he runs away to celebrate by the corner flag with the Arsenal fans.

53:45And he's looking around him a couple of times and there's no Arsenal player within 30, 40 yards of him. And I've always wondered whether that was A, because he was so quick no one could keep up with him or B, because he was such a loner that the teammates just didn't bother to go and celebrate with him. I think it's the classic Anelka moment. It sums up what he's like as a player. It sums up what he was like as a person. So yeah, and it won the FA Cup. It was a big moment in his career at that point as well.

54:33Michael Cox: Mine probably would be, we talked about his international career, which never really got going, but he did score two against England in 1999, and he was wearing goalkeeper gloves in that game, which I don't think I've seen before or since. It was February, to be fair. Yeah, but there's warmer gloves available. I mean, if it's a cold winter's day and I've got a selection of gloves, I'm not going for Sandicos. I'm going for a nice woolen option. But, I mean, again, quite a sort of... He was always a loner, took his own path. An individualistic attitude to his fingers.

55:06Julien Laurens: Jules? His first goal for PhD, obviously, and us as a family being in the stands. You were there? Yeah, and you just thought, I mean, because at the time... How old was he at the time? So 17. And nobody left their club at 17 at the time. Now it's a bit more common, you could see it. Right. So we, I mean, we, I think we, everybody, I say we as PhD fans, thought he's going to be there for three, four years until he goes to a bigger club. Fair enough. But it was just incredible seeing that moment of that guy that I'd seen play in that game I mentioned at Clair Fontaine not that long ago. Now being in the Paris des Princes, scoring that one-on-one with the keeper that we mentioned so many times already.

55:46Julien Laurens: It was just like, wow, incredible. And that shirt was so iconic. He looked so elegant and so cool. And he had such a young face. And he was from Paris. So, yeah, for me, that moment was very special. And it's Anelka who gets this ball. He's at 30 metres. Nadon is out. Reprise of Anelka. And the third Paris' goal at the 80th minute. Nicolas Anelka marks his first goal in the first division. He probably even smiled afterwards, though, because when you look back on the clips, there's a lot more smiles in the early part. How is he now, Jules? Is he happy now? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. and he's even opened up a bit more because he does some media work and things like that.

56:30Julien Laurens: Still lived in Dubai for a long time, come back to Paris a bit. And yeah, I think he's happy and I know in the documentary he's not too clear about what he would make of his own career, but I would love to have another chat with him and say, okay, really, let's be honest here. Did you think that you underachieved? or under and he does actually kind of hint at the answer to that at various points after whenever an incident is mentioned his kind of stop response is okay that's the game you want to play fine so be it and there's so much pride there and then a couple of times after a little bit more footage or maybe some quotes from other people you'll get another quote from an elk that says yeah i was a kid from the benley from from trap and i took that mentality with me with me and i realize now when i look back that i shouldn't have acted those that way i shouldn't have Shouldn't have said those things Yeah completely I mean even with all of that What a player What a career Yeah Yeah The first player ever to Score two goals Score a goal for France At Wembley But not the first Frenchman To score in the Premier League But the Fifth Fifth And we know the first The first was Eric Cantona Yeah Your quiz question Duncan

57:45Michael Cox: Who were the three Frenchmen To score their first Premier League goals In between Cantona in 1992 and Enelka in 1997. All right. So one is David Ginola, presumably? I'll add this one. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Michael? Coxie will know the other two. Coxie's going to know this. Well, presumably Patrick Vieira scored before Enelka did, did he? Yeah. Correct. That's right. 96, December. Ginola was August 95, probably. I reckon because he took a lot of penalties and I can't remember when he arrived, but Frank Leboeuf must be in there. Ding, ding, ding.

58:19Julien Laurens: Yes.

58:20Michael Cox: Pure con. Yeah, that was in August 96.

58:22Julien Laurens: So those are the big names. They're the three in between, Cansanar.

58:25Michael Cox: So that goes Cansanar, Gündler, Le Boeuf, Vieira and Elka Vassa. But you said the number six is the one that... Yeah, if you can get number six, who was in January 1998. Okay. Was it a West Ham player? Yes. Was it Mark Keller? No. Mark Keller didn't score till... He also did score in 98, but there was a flurry of Frenchmen scoring in 1998. Yeah, it really was the French invasion. Not Samassi Abu. Correct. Ah, yeah. Nice. This is almost as impressive as Raphael Honigstein naming fishes.

59:02Julien Laurens: Yeah, in Italian, yeah. In Italian. Yeah, absolutely. That was in our Klinsman episode, strangely. Not sure how that came up, but check it out, listener. Very good. All right, then. Well, Michael. Good to hear a rare accurate use of fishes rather than fish. as in because if it's different types of fish yeah it was different types of fishes yeah oh no it was different types of fish oh yeah yeah yeah yeah that works wow english eh what a language you go uh write to me personally and i'll explain that or try uh very good thank you so much michael for taking time out from a furniture assembly to join us today A pleasure Duncan thank you as well Jules lovely to see you Of course all Of the three guests today Are regulars on the Totally Football Show Which I hope you're a regular listener of If you're not listener Then why not try it we're out Four times a week So hard not to really Anyway that's it for now More Totally Extra Soon For now from all of the series It's goodbye

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