Totally Extra: The very talented Mr Rijkaard

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2:11The Athletic FC.

2:19Totally extra. Today, a frank chat about a legend of the game. Frank Reichard, engine of maybe the greatest club side ever perhaps two of them man who actually won something with Netherlands winner of a World Manager of the Year award too only to then walk away from football top rated, celebrated except for when he expectorated Frank Reichardt in today's Totally Extra

2:50Unbelievable, unbelievable Thursday the 17th of September and on today's Totally Extra, what a stellar line-up. Duncan Alexander. Hello, James. Hi, Duncan. And his athletic cohort, Michael Cox. Hi, James. Nice to see you, Mike. I haven't seen you since that World Cup thing. Yeah, I remember it well. And joining us from Paris, football writer extraordinaire, Simon Cooper. Simon, thank you for being with us. It's a pleasure. Nice to see you. Well, I see you too. And what a great time for you to be joining the Totally Football Show to discuss. Frank Reichard, Simon, of course, celebrated writer of so many great books, many of which concern or touch on Dutch football, Football Against the Enemy, Soccernomics Leto, The Football Men, lots of other words.

3:43World Cup Fever is your latest work. Simon, how's that going? It was quite an eventful World Cup, as you'll recall. so I think we had the foresight to bring it out just before the Trump World Cup. Have you added a chapter since? I have. It's ready to go. It will be out at some point soon. All right, then. Perhaps for Christmas, I'm hoping anyway. Well, Frank Reinhart is the subject for today's show, a man who left his mark and then left, curiously enough. Simon, I think, may have spoken to him since his disappearance from the stage, but we'll touch on that later on. Michael, I'm going to ask you, you're picking a world 11 an all-time world 11 is frank reichard in it he's probably not in an all-time world 11 but i think if you had to pick one player to fill every position in a world 11 would that not be the same thing no because i think my point is that reichard could play in any position so you could have 10 frank reichards and i think you'd have a solid back four and a creative midfield and you'd probably have someone to score goals up front he probably wasn't the best player in any individual position but yeah as an all-rounder relevant or relative to the players he played with in that era I mean he was incredible he could do everything he could score goals he was creative he could dribble he had physical power I think you look at a lot of players from his period and think could they adapt to today's game now it's so quick well I think he was often the quickest player on the pitch as well as being one of the most intelligent players on the pitch so yeah he was an extraordinary player and unlike a lot of players who covered every blade of grass and all that he had tactical discipline and intelligence and obviously carried that into his coaching career right his coaching career which is something i find particularly enigmatic we'll touch on that later on but simon how is he you grew up in the netherlands how is he viewed there is he in the pantheon of all timers i think so i mean the thing is he is not an egomaniac quite the opposite and of course that's a rare quality among great players which also feeds into what Michael's saying, that he could play in every position, because he did when they asked him.

5:47So Euro ACAs, which is the one time the Netherlands wins a prize, they say, look, we need a centre-back. And he says, sure. And he plays the role brilliantly, but he could have played in any other position. So he'd never really claimed to be in the pantheon. It doesn't particularly interest him, I think. And his disappearance from football, you know, when he could easily have done what coaches do and kept on finding a new job somewhere. shows that he didn't really need us emotionally that much. So he's viewed with great affection. I think also he's one of the most mature and psychologically astute people that I've ever seen in football, which, as you know, is not overrun with mature and psychologically astute people.

6:28Indeed. Duncan, what's your favourite Frank Reichardt memory? I mean, I think Euro 88, he was, you know, part of that team that was tremendous. I mean, for me, I think the one that is seared into my mind is the split. is this the cover of simon's book yeah yeah i mean no better hairstyle to take the uh rejection right did he did he spit at vola as he ran past was that my imagination let's hope so oh well now he's called vola over and well vola was provoked into that because he'd already got the free kick

7:11And Vohler pull back.

7:16And there's a bit of nonsense between Vohler and Rijkaard, which could spoil this match.

7:24Rude, Vohler's absolutely incensed, and in fairness... Well, it's a red card, and Vohler is off, and that is extraordinary. Oh, and he's... Well, there was no doubt about it then. Rijkaard spat on Vohler as he walked past him, and that, Bobby, is atrocious. absolutely atrocious but I think that was quite a seminal moment for English observers because I think you know the 1990 World Cup was almost like England's re you know falling in love with football again and I think for people of a certain age most moments from that World Cup are seared into memory and that was you know where is it? It's somewhere on the wall behind you here sadly listening you can't see this but if you own a copy of Simon's Football Against the enemy you will see it there very much in pride of place actually simon was that your choice or was that the publishing house that decided that was the that was the defining image of the you know i can't remember because it's so long ago but the netherlands germany rivalry at the time was very ferocious and brutal and so that spitting seemed to embody that although actually reichard didn't hate Germans at all and was, unlike many Dutch people, was hugely apologetic and horrified by what he'd done and sort of never claimed any justification for it.

8:48He and, gratifyingly, he and Rudi Vuller later appeared in an advert together, I read. My German isn't great, but is it something about everything's now in butter? It's all better, essentially. Yeah, kind of German expression, meaning we're all friends now, we're all okay. And I think genuinely they were i think they're both quite uh forgiving and gentle people and it's really a rare transgression in in a character's career he he wasn't that kind of person at all so it's odd that as duncan says it's the image that one immediately thinks of when you think of him because it's out of character spit at one german now duncan have you got a quiz question for us yes i do um and it was kind of i knew michael was was going to be on today's show so sort of angled it to something that he he might enjoy which was obviously we're talking about one of the greatest dutch players and players of all time but um three dutchmen appeared in the premier league uh in the first season 92 93 who are they three in the first season of the premier league right three dutch players i mean traditionally we try and keep the answer back for the end right okay just entice people to i don't know that we need to do that today so if you know the answer i pretend I'm thinking, yeah.

10:07No, I will be thinking about it. Will you be thinking about it? Simon, any ideas? I'm really puzzled. George Boateng, but I might be misplacing his era. I think I might have worked. Is one of them a goalkeeper? Yes. Yes. Hans Segers? Yep, correct. So we're one down. Two to go. Okay. We'll have a ponder. Stick around, and while you're waiting, listener, we'll entertain you with some chat. First of all, as we like to do on Totally Extra about what has happened this week in football history.

10:43Michael, as you know, today is September the 17th. In and around September 17th, down through the ages, a lot has happened. Really big things. For example, September the 14th, 1891, Wolves forward John Heath scored the first ever penalty kick in English football. You've seen him given. You literally hadn't. Although you might have if you'd been visiting Irish football, because this was an idea that had originated in Ireland, and the English authorities were very much against it because they resented the notion that anyone would need penalising because Englishmen didn't cheat. However, eventually it was brought in, and after a blatant goal line handball, apparently, by a Notts County player, but that's not important right now.

11:31Anyway, John Heath scored the first one, and Wolves went on to win 5-0 against Accrington. Oh, when we get to late November, producer Xavi remind me to do the story of the penalty from the following season when Stoke City were losing 2-1 to Aston Villa. They were awarded a penalty in the dying seconds, but one of the Villa players kicked the ball out of the stadium and by the time somebody went to get it and bring it back, the referee had already blown for full time because they didn't add time on. Extraordinary. Extraordinary. Anyway, moving on to events from this week, September the 16th, 1937, was the first ever live televised football game.

12:08Do you remember this, Duncan? I obviously don't remember this first time. I don't remember it as it happened. Do you know what it was? It was at Highbury, right? Yes. Arsenal against Arsenal Reserves. And it was a game essentially to test the television equipment. And so television football was born. How new ballgame? Yeah. September the 18th 1976 was when Ronaldo Nazário was born in Rio de Janeiro happy 50th birthday to him And look at that there's a lot of field now Rivaldo throwing it to Ronaldo He hit

12:48Goal!

12:55Goal! Brazil Ronaldo Ronaldo! We did a go-lacso about him. Were you on that one, Michael? I don't think so, no. That's a shame. Still worth listening to. September the 18th, 1991, marked the return of English teams to Europe after the long ban following the Heisel disaster. Liverpool and Arsenal both mark indication with 6-1 wins. Anyway, that's enough Almanac for now. Let's talk Frank Reinhardt. And here's Reikard, Reikard, Reikard, he's a goal! Goal by Reikard! Another cross, the public is up, and Reikard met in goal! Another Louis, Frankie Reikard! We knew we needed something more. One piece of the puzzle was Frank, especially for Marco and I.

13:48And when Frank came, all of a sudden it made it much easier for us. Frank was the last piece of that puzzle. Van Basten, Van Basten cerca space to the right. September, struck by Ruggeri, part of the cross. Colpo di destra, Rijkaard, goal! Milan in goal with Rijkaard. Van Basten, Rijkaard. Must be, and is. The Dutch have put it together. So, Frank Rijkaard. Quiet man, huge impact on the game. engine of perhaps the greatest club side the world has ever seen, some would say. Won back-to-back European titles at Milan. He won another European title and had an undefeated season back at Ajax. He even, as Simon mentioned, won a title with Netherlands, which has never been done before or since.

14:43Came pretty close to glory with Netherlands as manager. Made Barcelona great again. And then might drop and vanish. Is that a fair summary, Simon? What else would you add to that CV? He went to Saudi Arabia, I think, after Barcelona, raked an enormous amount of money, and then I think felt he was done, both financially and professionally. And he just seems to hang out in Amsterdam. Ajax once said to him, you know, do you fancy coming back as coach? And he said, no. He said, I like watching the club as a fan. So there isn't really much to add to your brilliant summary. Thank you very much. All right, so nothing afterwards, but what about the start?

15:25His family came from Suriname. His father was a teammate of Root Hullet's father for a team called Robin Hood in Suriname. Is that right? Yeah, so the story is that both their fathers came on the boat together at some point in the 1950s to play professional football and I think do a bit of teaching because they were semi-pros. Both married white Dutch women and Rekard and Kulet are practically the same age, grew up together in Amsterdam West and played together as teenagers both on squares in Amsterdam and in clubs. And later, of course, for Milan and Holland, but they were never particularly friends.

16:03They were not that close, partly because, I mean, Reinhardt always saw something funny about Khalidt, Khalidt's enormous ego. And Khalidt's need to be at the front of every scene. And so they were never natural friends. Reinhardt was an odd guy. He quarreled with people, so they got on. But, I mean, people in a kind of racist way assumed that they were like twins, but this was not the case at all. and Gullit goes to Haarlem and emerges very quickly as a great player. Rekard goes through Ajax and when he begins playing for Ajax in 1980-81, it's just before Johan Cruyff comes back as a player. Cruyff is 34.

16:46So Rekard, like many people in Dutch football, is enormously influenced by Cruyff, who again was a kind of crazy, aggressive person that Rekard always viewed with a certain distance. Sorry, Cruyff was crazy and aggressive. Kulik was not crazy and aggressive, but just had a big ego. So Ekker viewed them both with a certain distance, but did learn a lot from playing with Kruij. Right, and won a lot as well. I mean, he spent, what, seven and a half seasons at Ajax, not all of them with Kruij, just the last three, I think. Three Eredivisie titles, three Dutch Cups, Cup Winners' Cup as well in 86-87.

17:23And then in the third season with Kruij, there's a split. What actually happened there? Yeah, so René Kaur firstly plays with Krau from about the age of 18. Krau comes back as a player in 81, and then in 85, I think Krau becomes manager. So he experiences Krau from both those forms. And Krau's thing, one of his things was that the best player in the team has to be the leader, has to have a view on how to play, argue with the coach, just as Krau himself had done as a player. And he said to René Kaur, look, you're the best player. In fact, we have a problem because when you're at right half, we don't need an outside right because you play both those positions.

18:02We can't really have anyone else on your wing because you're so dominant. You're the best player and you need to kind of lead and shout at the others and have a view on tactics. And I said, yeah, but I don't want to do that. I'm not interested in kind of being an alpha male main man. And so Kalf would keep shouting at him and goading him at training to try and get a reaction from him. and it creates very primitive emotional handling. And one day, Reikar just throws down his shirt and he walks out of training. He says, I'm never going to play for this man again. And he ends up playing out much of the season at Real Zaragoza in a very peculiar chain of events.

18:41It is peculiar. He'd signed for... Could you explain how he ended up at Real Zaragoza? Yeah, I mean, it's slightly lost in my memory, but he signs for Sporting Lisbon. Family can't go there. All this happens in the middle of the season. It's a sudden event. He says, I'm not going to play for Krauf anymore. And the only club where he seems able to find a berth is Elza Aguoso. So this great player plays for what is then really a nothing club in the run-up to the 1988 European Championship, where it's clear he's going to be a key player. So he's a kind of exile from Kraufdom. Do you think he played in it?

19:18Do you know what his favourite position was out of the many that he clearly could inhabit? I'm not sure that he hugely minded. I mean, obviously, in central midfield, he had enormous scope. But I think he also likes the problem of adapting to a position and learning how to play it. And, you know, he was what they called in the 80s, a stopper centre-back. So Ronald Koeman would play the libero, would not have to mark a man, and Rekard would have to mark the man. So I can still see Holland England in 88. Rekard is marking Gary Lineker. So it's a kind of subordinate role. for a player that good. But as well as marking Lineker out of the game, I don't think Lineker touches the ball.

19:59Rekha then also, when he wins the ball, he gracefully sets up attacks. So he really could do almost anything and was very willing to adjust to whatever the coach wanted. Yeah, 1988, the summer when Netherlands finally won a title, which was, I imagine, seismic for you. How old were you at the time, Simon? I was 18. It was seismic and unforgettable and sort of Holland beating Germany in the semi is still my happiest football memory. And there were four great players in that side. So I just think of it in a very misty-eyed way. Ronald Koeman and Rekker in central defence. Gullit sort of just behind von Busten at centre forward.

20:41And Marco von Busten scored all the goals that tournament. And very soon afterwards have his untimely demise. Gullit's up there with him. He's swept it wide here for Muren. Played a lovely early ball in towards Van Basten. Oh, tremendous goal by the Dutch striker Marco van Basten. Venus Vickles holds his head and says, well, you can't believe that. What a glorious strike by van Basten, a man who can do no wrong. Yeah, indeed so. Indeed so. What are your recollections of that, Ned Lundz? And how much was Rijkaard the kind of unobserved engine of it all? Yeah, I think so. To my earlier point, I think he didn't really sort of leap into the forefront of English observers minds until two years later.

21:25But I think that 88 game was one of the first football games I can remember, actually. But England were absolutely outclassed. It was like the Netherlands were playing a sport that no one had even envisaged. And I know it was in the very midst of the European band. But England went into that tournament as one of the favorites and lost all three group games. but the Dutch game was a real humbling and obviously, as Simon says, those four players haunted them that day and would do again. One, two, three! One, two, three, one, two, three! One, two, three! Wow, it's a patchwork! And the Dutch have surely cracked it now!

22:13It was the start of a real era of Netherlands, England sort of encounters with probably only 1990 being the only one where England were the better team Michael you've done an excellent series on European championships that how what's your take on that Dutch side well they're an interesting one because I mean they weren't regarding the Netherlands as being a classic Dutch team in terms of the way that they played and they weren't well I think a few players felt they were kind of round pegs in square holes or even the reverse can never which remember which way around that expression works but it doesn't really matter does it that's the point well it does because i think you can put a ramping in a square hole but were you to try the inverse okay yeah fair point i mean it depends on the proportions but i digress it does uh but so i mean rude hulett for example is basically playing as a second striker right when he wants to be much deeper he will you know to a certain extent wants to be the right card figure but to have right card and kuman is your center backs i mean that's just extraordinarily technical beyond you know beyond the like of anything i think you would see at the time and to a certain extent to what you'd see now even though everyone is you know comfortable on the ball you don't have proper playmakers i don't think at the back and i mean a little bit later when it's when it's uh uh i was going to call him daily blind when it was danny blind alongside uh reikard for ajax in 95 i know we're jumping forward a little bit here but van howell louis van howell always referred to them as the playmakers he had litman as his number 10 but he He said, Lippmann doesn't have enough time on the ball.

23:41You know, the number 10 in the modern game can't be the playmaker. So he thought the two centre-backs were the playmakers. And when one of those was Reichard, I mean, that was, you know, someone who could really not just play passes. I mean, Koeman was more of a spray of 50-yard diagonal ball going back to 88. Reichard, I think, was great at dribbling. He could dribble 20 yards and he loved playing one-twos. And I think that's, in my mind, that's what I think of most with Reichard, just through the middle, running with the ball, laying it off and always going for the return pass. And again, it's just something you don't really see that much of in the modern game.

24:13I think in a way, that's why people were so excited in 2019 when Frankie de Jong came along for Ajax. Maybe he hasn't quite become the player that some expected in that mould. But he was so unusual because he was a dribbler as a holding midfielder. And that, to a certain extent, was the role that Rijkaard played, I think.

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26:45This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli Kaye and the very best football writers around. In 1988, following the Euro triumph, the move from Real Sadagossa, where he'd been biding his time to Milan to join two of his compatriots in that glorious orangey team, Van Basten and Hullet. Incredible, the Milan line-up in those days, because in 88 they basically have 1-2-3 in the Ballon d 'Or voting with Van Basten winning. Hullet, I think, had won the previous one.

27:28And then the following season, again, this time with Barresi in there, displacing, I can't remember which of the Dutchmen, Milan also have a 1-2-3 in the Ballon d 'Or voting. But in both occasions, Frank Reichard is second behind Van Basten, which even though he's kind of a little bit under the radar, at least until he sits at somebody at Italia 90 for some observers, he is absolutely top-rated amongst the football connoissante. Yeah, I think one thing he does is that he plays at a very high level of difficulty. I mean, as Michael says, he's doing adventurous things. He's also marking a man. And he makes almost no mistakes at that very high level of difficulty.

28:12And that's not a criterion that we set for a centre-forward like from Boston, who's allowed to, you know, lose half the balls he gets. Rekard was sort of faultless while also being brilliant and adventurous. And so I think it was very hard to watch football in that era and watch more than a few games without Milan, who are by far the best team. And Fumbuster said one of his frustrations about the 1990 World Cup, he said, if we'd have played it with Milan, we would have won the World Cup quite easily. Right, yeah. I mean, you could, I guess, say that a lot of club sides might enjoy, there are a lot of advantages to playing with club teammates.

28:51But that, I mean, IFAB have called that Milan side the greatest club outfit of all time. Not IFAB. Why are they getting it? The other ones, the if of them yeah yeah international federation i don't know how much stock you want to put by that it's a glorious title to give them and one of the things about that rossanedi outfit is the extraordinary level of now or legendary names that that populate it van baston up front donadoni anchelotti barezzi all of them and in the middle quietly going about his business and I wonder to what extent he enjoyed being in that less showy role. But in the middle of it, you had Frank Reichard.

29:36One legendary name you didn't mention is the owner, Berlusconi. And I think his relationship with Reichard is interesting because, of course, in this very egomaniac-ridden setting, Berlusconi is the chief egomaniac. And Reichard tells a story that I think they've won the second European Cup in 1990 and they're having a banquet and Berlusconi comes in, of course, it's an orchestrated entrance. So everything goes quiet. Berlusconi strides into the room and all the tables of the players, their wives, the Huggins-On, rise and applaud Berlusconi. And he goes from table to table, you know, taking in the applause.

30:11This is his finest moment. And then he gets to the Dutch table and Rijkaard said, nobody stood up. He said, I think Gilles was sitting telling a joke to somebody. Berlusconi's totally ignored by the Dutch because Rijkaard said the thing about Dutch people is they just don't have any respect. And he said, I looked at Berlusconi and I could see his face was crumbling. He would not be able to take this humiliation. And so he said, I thought I had to save him. So Rijkaard stands up and he shakes Berlusconi's hand. And Berlusconi's able to then, you know, he feels the Dutch table have given him his due and he's moved on.

30:48And Rekard said he never forgot that. And after that, he would call me into his office and we would have one-on-one chats, whereas before Berlusconi had been much closer to Khalid because, of course, Berlusconi and Khalid were more similar personalities. So I think that's the story. Like many of Rekard's stories, it doesn't just capture the other guy very well. It also captures Rekard. He felt bad for Berlusconi. He had an incredible, it was an amazing team and they all won so much, including back-to-back European titles, Stub Bucharest in 89, and then the match prior to that banquet in 1990 against Fenjur and Eriksson's Benfica.

31:25But he's...

31:31Baston, Rijkaard... Must be, and is... The Dutch have put it together.

31:4367th minute of the match all the noise from the supporters of Milan simplicity itself and amongst those stars it was actually Rijkaard who in 1992 was named City as player of the year but only a year later he leaves Milan do you know why that was Simon? I mean, he was over 30. He was keen to go back. I think Van Gaal was already coached, yes. And Van Gaal said, look, we're building something. There are all these young players and they need you. So he was kind of needed as the older figure. And it's a team where Seedorf, Daphis, Klaufer, this incredible generation of teenagers are emerging. But I think he certainly didn't expect that they would then actually become better than Milan and beat Milan in the 1995 final with Rekker again playing faultlessly from the back.

32:44So I think it's a different kind of satisfaction from being in the best team in the world with only mature players to going home and making your young team the best in the world. Michael, were you across him at this point? And what did you make of him back at Ajax? A little bit before my time in terms of experiencing at the time. But I've watched a lot of that Ajax side for book research in particular. And Raikardt does stand out for his intelligence at that point. Maybe a less mobile, dynamic player in his 30s. but again he's still doing I mean I mentioned earlier the 1-2's when he gets the winner against Milan in 95 sorry when he sets up Kluivert for the winner in 95 he clearly intended that to be a 1-2 and that was classic Rijkaard to try and play a 1-2 through the defence I don't think Kluivert got the memo and kind of poked it home himself Rijkaard Ja Kluivert Ja Kluivert Edo for Ajax.

33:50Yeah, that was what he was all about. And I think that final was quite interesting because Van Gaal said at half-time, I mean, they didn't play great football in that final. They played brilliant football throughout the season. The final, as finals often are, was a little bit scrappy. But there's two things that happen at half-time. One is that Van Gaal moves Rijka a little bit deeper because he's not getting on the ball. So he almost goes into a centre-back position. and that's obviously quite interesting considering he actually ends up playing the crucial pass from the edge of the opposition box shows that even when he was playing as a centre-back he had an impact in the final third but I think I'm right in saying that after the first half Reichard kind of stands up and does this speech in the dressing room you know to all the young players saying you know that we've got to go out and win this we're a better team we've got to play our best football and I think that's interesting considering what we've discussed earlier that Reichard was such a reluctant leader.

34:42And that's why he left Ajax the first time, because he falls out with Cruyff, I'm not going to be your leader. And this is his last game. As a footballer, he retires straight after the European Cup final and 45 minutes to go in his career, almost maybe for the first time, I expect throughout the season, he's been more of a leader. But certainly in a decisive moment, he stands up and he gives this speech. And that's maybe the thing that inspires Ajax to win the European Cup. And earlier when he said he played in maybe the greatest club team there's been, I assumed you were talking about the Ajax.

35:09Oh, right. The fact that there's two teams that could be construed as being on that level that he plays in. In Eredivisie terms, they went undefeated through that season, the 94-95. Tell us more about them then. I think they went about a year and a half not losing in any competition. So at one point they go and play the World Club Cup final in Tokyo and they assume they're going to win it. They win it quite simply and everything they win. And he'd previously done a similar run with Milan in the kind of a couple of years before that. I think as the 91 to 92, they go something like 53 matches without defeat in the league, which was extraordinary.

35:45And they're just all, I mean, this is obviously that generation of incredible players that Simon listed earlier. And I think the truly legendary club teams of the last 25, 30 years, maybe a bit longer, they always have this real core of homegrown young players. So I'd say the Manchester United team in 99 had obviously, you know, the players Ferguson brought through in the mid 90s, the Barcelona of La Masia. I think Bayern Munich as well. But this Ajax side, obviously, that was basically broken up when the Bosman ruling comes in and, you know, three foreigners is no longer the rule and everyone goes abroad.

36:19But I think that almost all of them were probably at their best at Ajax. I mean, someone like Edgar Davids, for example, was, you know, in Italy, he was a bit of a ball winner, quite a functional player, but he was a real all-round midfielder in Ajax. And I think Reichard kind of epitomised that, yeah, just you can do everything. It was, I don't know if someone would agree with this but it's almost like the the second coming of total football in a sense you've got so many players who could do so many things and so many moving parts that somehow you know it ties itself all together and created yeah a team who completely dominated possession in in almost every game that they blowed and it was tactically at the time the most advanced team and in fact van Gaal always hammered on about banged on about this he said we won because of the collective, the players themselves are not that special, but they all play brilliantly in my system.

37:08And as Michael says, it wasn't totally wrong in that none of them went on to greater things than they achieved at Ajax. But Raikard, to be at the heart of one of the greatest sides in Milan, and then to do it again with another team, suggests that he was more than just a bystander to that to those successes you know to be to be at the heart of back-to-back epically good sides whatever the hole was in your team he could decide to fill it whether that was in anywhere and probably not center forward and the other thing was that um so he would adapt to whatever your system needed to be and he could see it as well and like i mean you know i once interviewed him, I said, what's your, you know, what was your football?

37:56What did you care about? And he said, you know, I grew up in the 1970s in Holland. And he said, that's always been my ideal, those footballers. Football is a game of logic, where, you know, you have to be there, and I have to be there. And if I'm passing to you, I should pass in front of you. We never do sideways passes. He said, all these logical rules of football that that 70s team had, he said, that was always what I worshipped. And so I think he was in that Dutch, in that Craufian tradition, he was a thinking footballer who also had both the physique and the technique to execute everything he could see.

38:33But it begins, as Johan Crauf says, you only start to see it when you understand. So understanding precedes everything. Sounds like he'd make an amazing manager. Let's get on then to what he did from the bench next.

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41:41you're listening to the totally football show with james richardson now we do four times a week keep up to date with us on insta and enjoy us in glorious technicolor on youtube at the totally show frank reichard the manager what a strange career duncan yeah not many people start off as national team manager for your first first job then go on to one of European football's biggest clubs. Fresh from a relegation. Yeah, and kind of rebuild that and set up the club in a lot of ways for one of the best periods it's ever had. And then, as we've talked about earlier, just ultimately just might drop and walk off.

42:20Yeah. So he came, he was kind of better penalty taking away from winning glory with his nation, perhaps. Some would say he paves the way for Pep. I don't know what we make of that assertion, very different teams, his Barcelona and the one that follows. And then he decides it's not for him. When he was appointed Dutch manager, he'd been assistant to Gus Hiddink. Is that right, Simon? That's right. And it's partly because there'd been this kind of racial schism in the Dutch team at Euro 96, where this famous photo is taken of there's about four or five tables at lunch. White players sit at four tables and all the black players sit at one table.

43:02and the black players led by Clarence Sadov said they're being discriminated against and not taken fully seriously and so after this it's felt this can never happen in a Dutch team again and Reikard as a guy who's half white and half black is brought in as manager and it's true that he I think not so only because of his ethnicity but also he's very good at listening to people understanding people he solves these problems and so they from the since then the Dutch team has always had rules about we decide who rooms together and we decide who sits where at which table so that we never have these racial divides again.

43:42And also they have Surinamese food regularly served in team meals, which was one of the players' demands. Surinam being the small Dutch former colony in the Caribbean where most of these guys, including Agard, have their origins. So, yeah, he becomes manager partly because of who he is more than his knowledge of football. But it's also a time when other great footballers are immediately given managerial jobs like Klinsmann and later Maradona, something that wouldn't really happen now in that way. And the players immediately accept him. It's a very good Dutch team. They also know how to play. It's kind of the Fargell-Kreufian system they've all grown up in.

44:19And they're pretty good at Euro 2000. As you say, if they hadn't hit all their penalties kind of into the 14th row of the stands in the shootouts against Italy in the semi, they might have won. Frank De Boer has missed one in the game.

44:36Big test of nerve. And Toronto has saved from the same player for the second time on the same evening, and it is Holland's Mr Reliable, Frank De Boer. Weirdly, the build-up to that, I'm not sure how much you can recall of attitudes towards this untested manager at the helm of Netherlands. But was it over a year without winning a game in the build-up to Euro 2000? In those days, and to some degree still, nobody really worries about who is Holland's manager. Because it's not like with England, where they were constantly in those days trying to reinvent a style, like how should we play. With Holland, everyone knew how they were going to play.

45:19And whether you or I or Van Geek was manager, they would play pretty much that way. It was the way they'd all grown up. It's like with Spain now, there's a kind of language of football, there's a set style that the coach doesn't really have all that much to tell them. Fair enough, fair enough. Well, Euro 2000, a bittersweet ending but an ultimately successful first managerial spell. What did you make of him as a manager looking bad, Michael? Well, I remember everyone wanting a Netherlands-France final really because they were the two best footballing sides. and I think to a certain extent he did his job and can't be blamed for what happened with the penalty shootout.

45:58I mean, the strange thing after that is he goes to Sparta Rotterdam. Right. Who are, in relative terms, a pretty small, a historic club in Dutch football, a pretty small club, and he gets relegated. Right. How did that happen, Simon? What happened there? I think he knew someone there and, you know, as Michael says, Sparta, everyone likes Sparta. They play in red and white shirts, a kind of English club, 1888 and I think he thought yeah I want to help Sparta and he's not really ambitious in a conventional way as we'll see later and so to him he it didn't really bother him whether he was managing Holland or Sparta or Barcelona he didn't really make a big distinction between all that I think he thought that was an interesting experience to work with not very good players at a small club and yeah it didn't work out brilliantly and they were relegated.

46:44Right which is coming off a tremendously successful period with the Netherlands side. Was there any particular, was he seemingly to blame for that? It's curious that following that, I think it was the first relegation they'd ever had, Sparta Rotterdam, he then gets fairly swiftly afterwards, as Duncan was mentioning, the job at Barcelona. Yeah, well, this is the hand of God, or Johan Krauf. So, Joan Laporta has just been elected president, and Laporta is the ultimate Krauf fanboy. He's now president of Barca again. And so he says to Cruyff, who should I make coach? And Cruyff says, well, you have to take Van Grijkaard.

47:19Because although Cruyff and Grijkaard had squabbled, and Cruyff fought with everyone, so he didn't really hold us against anyone. And he enjoyed the fights. Cruyff really liked fighting with people. So he said, yeah, this bloke, Van Grijkaard. And Laporta said, well, if you say so. And they probably, you know, check his CV. He just got relegated. But Johan says we have to take him. So that's how he becomes manager of Barcelona, I think, in 2003 with Laporta's takeover. Okay. I mean, it's almost the reverse of what we're seeing at the moment with Xavi, right? Okay. Xavi gets the Netherlands job just basically because he's a Barcelona man.

47:52So true. You know, that's kind of seen as, well, you get the club or you get the country, even though they're obviously nothing to do with each other. It feels like Rijkaard should have played for Barcelona, but of course he didn't. He just understood that, you know, obviously Kreuz has been manager there, Van Gaal has been manager there, Mikel has been manager there, and he gets, you know, he gets the job. but the thing we have to remember, it seems mad now, but before they won, before he won his first La Liga title, Barcelona have gone six years without winning a trophy, not just without winning the league, without winning a trophy.

48:22And it's quite interesting, the interviews with him at that time. He's not necessarily speaking about the footballing concepts. He's talking a lot about the winning mentality. And I think there's maybe certain, you know, that's maybe not a thing you necessarily associate with Dutch football because obviously the thing about Dutch football is they play fantastic football and often fail at the last. But of course, Rijka has got this track record of he's been a player who's won the Euros in 88. He's won the European Cup, as we've said, with two different clubs. He has got this aura about him. And I think when you look at the way his Barcelona played compared to later years, it actually seems quite functional, a bit primitive.

48:58But actually in the context of European football at that time, when the sides were winning it are kind of Mourinho's Porto and Benitez's Liverpool, actually it's still for that time quite a technical and forward-thinking and possession-based side even if he plays you know Mark van Bommel and Ed Milson in midfield rather than obviously Xavi and Eniesta who would dominate the Guardiola team yeah indeed that first season saw Barcelona plumb the depths for a while and supposedly a lot of pressure on the club over their choice of manager he turns it around and they end up runner-up and then that paves the way after a rebuilding campaign in the transfer market for back-to-back titles and the European title indeed against Arsenal.

49:42How important was the way that his personality had evolved in terms of commanding in that difficult first season at Barcelona, Simon? I mean, I always think players are more important and, you know, we argue this in soccer-nomics, managers don't matter much. So what happens in that first season is they have a gap at the back of midfield and at one point they bring Edgar Daphnis in and it turns out he's the man. and so suddenly the midfield works and then you get the emergence of Ronaldinho who'd never been a very successful player at Paris Saint-Germain comes to Barcelona and he kind of blossoms into the best player in the world for a very short period of about a year and a half you have Ronaldinho and you have Deco at his best you have these two incredible players at that moment probably the two best players in the world in the Barca midfield so as Michael says it's not a beautiful system but with Ronaldinho there they managed to win the Champions League

50:55and I think Rekar is always quite cool under it all I mean, I remember interviewing him in his Barcelona office in the cave, this cave in the depths of the Camp Nou, this little room without windows. And, you know, I'm there and he's just the coolest man in the world. You know, he's wearing jeans, he throws his legs over a table, lights a cigarette and he just sits there and he kind of chats. And I thought, you know, coaches are supposed to be stressed out, but he just finds it a really interesting job. And, you know, if they if he gets sacked, he'll just go and find something. He said, you know, what I'd really like to do is learn Brazilian Portuguese.

51:36He says, I find it such a fascinating language, and it's so different from the Portuguese of Portugal. And so I just thought, you know, what a man. And he didn't need to win the Champions League. He'd have been fine if they didn't, but they did. He finds it the most interesting job in the world. But then after this job and a couple of experiences, Galatasaray, where he lost, I think, less than a year, and then Saudi Arabia with the national side, it suddenly ceases to hold interest for him. Yeah, I mean, Barcelona falls apart because Ronaldinho starts to drink and all discipline in the players group is lost.

52:12And Edgard is not really a disciplinarian. He treats people as adults. It didn't work. And yeah, and then he tries it elsewhere. And I think he thinks, you know, at a club like Galatasaray or a country like Saudi Arabia, you can't really build high-level football. And if you lose two games, everyone gets really angry and they kick you out. And he just wasn't interested in that. I don't think football was emotionally ever really at the center of his life. It was something he was brilliant at, and he was fine as a coach, but it wasn't sort of what kept him awake at night particularly. And, you know, he found things funny, like, you know, when people got really upset about spitting at Fuller, he said, you know, in the end, there's a kind of comic aspect to it as well.

52:55and so i think it just didn't bother him for a second walking away from it and what's the coolest guy in the world doing now i mean occasionally i hear you know he's um i remember once i was in a cafe in amsterdam's beautiful sunny morning about 15 years ago and you know people are sitting around having coffee reading the papers and i think oh there's von grecker and he's sitting at a table in his cafe you know having a coffee reading the papers and nobody bothers him because Amsterdam kind of is like that. So everyone would have thought, oh, there's an air cover. And I think that's what he does.

53:29He had this phase, I think, of going to the gym obsessively, so he became incredibly muscular even by his standards. But, yeah, so when Ajax asked him, you know, would he be interested in becoming their coach? He said, you know, I really like watching the team. I'm an Ajax fan now, he said. So he does stuff like that. Okay. It does sound like if you were to have one footballer's career, his career would be a pretty good one to have. Do you know what? In researching some books over the years, I found so many quotes from managers who would later become really successful at the start of their career.

54:07And they all said, I'm not going to have a long career management. I'm going to do eight to 10 years. It's too stressful. And of course, then they just get addicted to it. And they do what Neil Warnock does, where he's had about six jobs, where he says, this is my last job. And he keeps on coming back. And Reichardt's one of the only ones who's actually stuck to that. And it sounds like he's had quite a nice life by doing so. Because obviously, I mean, he got close to winning a European Championship as a manager on home soul. That would have been fantastic. Did win the European Cup with Barcelona.

54:38Helped to turn Barcelona back towards the club that Barcelona always wanted to be. And yeah, I think was basically done. And it sounds like, by all accounts, the Saudi job was just his retirement, really. Subsequent to the Champions League win in Paris over Arsenal, he did get named World Manager of the Year by whatever shadowy body it was. What do you make of that now, Michael? To what extent is that a fair appreciation of his, having eulogised him as a player, how good a manager was he? Yeah, I mean, I don't think he goes down as one of the greats. I think to a certain extent he was fortunate, as Simon says, to have Ronaldinho and Deco in the same team.

55:21And then Messi later on. And then Messi later on. But at the same time, made allowances for them, I think, probably understood the value of Ronaldinho. I think sometimes it takes a real former top player to appreciate the talent that Ronaldinho has. You know, if it was Mourinho or Benitez who had Ronaldinho at their disposal, I'm not sure it would have worked out that well. And the level he got to, he's almost been overshadowed by Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, but the level Ronaldinho got to was like, nothing else I think I'd seen in terms of his level of ability and his kind of efficiency but also the fact he was an entertainer and so yeah he did he did great things at Barcelona I think he was the right man a right man at the right time and and you also have to remember this was very different Barcelona in the sense that any of a won the European Cup once at this point the same as Milan had only won the European Cup twice back in the 60s when when Riker went there as a player and you know clubs like that they kind of they they win these European Cups and they become bigger exponentially each time.

56:20And it's interesting that of two of the biggest clubs on the continent, he was there at the point where they started to ratchet up more on us. I want to say one other thing about his managerial talent or gift, which is when I interviewed him in spring 2008, Messi is 20 and he's a regular. And Rekard says, you know, he's learning to pass. When he came in, he just dribbled. And I said to him, you know, if you dribble nine times, the opposition know you're going to dribble. So he said, we're teaching him to pass. We're teaching him to do one-twos. We're teaching him that he gives us the ball. We'll give it back to him.

57:00And he says it's a very long process. It's not easy. He was quite frank and quite critical of Messi. So I think if you look back at Messi's development, that coach and also that team having players like Eto 'o and Ronaldinho and Deco saying to Messi, you know what? You can give us the ball. And we'll give it back to you. and we'll all be better. I think it was a phase that Messi had to go through. Tore Messi to pass. We'll add that to the Palmares. I think the nice thing about his managerial style is that it's a blend of his playing career. So he's got the Dutch style, but he also went to Milan, obviously, and played under Saki, and there's a bit more kind of defensive.

57:39Milan as well, a little bit. Exactly. A little bit like Zidane, I would say. I mean, Zidane, obviously, is French and is now managing France. But to a certain extent, I think he's quite Italian in style because he had such success at Juventus. And Rijkaard's one of these Dutch players who has quite an overseeing, quite holistic kind of view of how football should be played. And one of the things I quite liked about him, Simon might be able to recall this better than me, but ahead of Euro 2000, he wanted the Dutch shorts changed from white to black because he thinks white is about pristine, pretty football, but black is more about getting the job done, which maybe didn't help in that shootout.

58:15But yeah, I quite like the idea. I quite like the fact anyone's even thinking about that. So true. Is that true, Simon? Yeah, he was from Italy. He'd absorbed the idea you just have to damn win every single match. It's not a Dutch idea. So at Euro 2000, he said, you know, at one point in a press conference, he says, I'm very upset with my players sometimes because we watch other games on TV and they say, oh, they're so bad. They, you know, they have no technique. They're so stupid. It was a great parody of sort of how Dutch footballers of the time talked and watched other teams. And Enhagard said, he said, they never stop to think, yeah, but those blokes are really tackling hard.

58:51They're running their socks off. They're giving everything. And he says, I'd like to think, I'd like my players to have a little bit more of that kind of attitude. And that was one thing that he wanted to give to Dutch football, which was absent. Magnificent. Frank Reigard, a man who left his mark. Duncan, you've got a quiz question to resolve for us. Yeah, I mean, it made me think, you know, a man who never came to the Premier League either as a player. I mean, Hullet came in 95, which is when Raikard retired and, you know, didn't manage there either. But bringing it back to the Premier League, the question was the three Dutchmen who appeared in the first Premier League season.

59:30Okay. Of which we got one. Yeah, Simon's given us one already. Yeah, Hans Egers. The others? Did Chelsea have like a centre-back, a Dutch centre-back? Was that a little bit later than this? that you're thinking of the right person, but he wasn't at Chelsea at this point. He was at his previous club, which was Southampton. I can't. Oh, is it Ken Moncow? What's his name? Moncow. Moncow. Right. Ken Moncow. Or however that should be pronounced. And the remaining figure, Duncan? Played for Manchester City quite often, I think, in that season. I don't know. michelle vonk oh okay right another goalkeeper right yeah and then the following season which wasn't part of the question but i would posit the most obscure player in premier league history is orfeo kaiser veard who played one game for oldham athletic i've never every time i see his name i'm like i've never heard about you before also i'm sorry orfeo kaiser orfeo kaiser veard i think that I mean, my pronunciation is probably not spot on.

1:00:41Right. But, yeah. Let's book a future Galatso for Orpheo Kaiser thing. Yeah. Yeah. Oldham legend. Wow. Incredible. Well, thank you for that, Duncan. Simon, thank you very much for joining us from Paris. Enjoy your Parisian evening. Thank you. It was splendid to talk to you and hope to catch up with you again soon one day. Michael, many thanks to you for coming all the way in. And lovely to see you again. Pleasure. Can I just add that in my research for this, I found a World Soccer magazine from December 1991 about Raikad's return to the international fold. And it is written by one Simon Cooper in December 1991, 35 years ago.

1:01:20My gosh, my gosh. Right. Crikey. Well, thanks for that perspective. Very good. That's it for this Totally Extra. Many thanks to producers Savvy and anybody else who's been involved. Thank you, listeners. Do join us again for another Extra Soon for now. From all of us here. It's goodbye.

1:01:40You've been listening to The Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. For more great podcasts just like this one, including The Athletic FC and our dedicated club podcasts, search for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify and all the usual places. We're also at The Totally Football Show on Insta and at The Totally Show on YouTube. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

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