Totally Extra: Tottenham’s trip to the Champions League final

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1:42The Athletic FC.

1:50Totally Extra. Today, it's the history of the Tottenham. Thank you, Giorgio. Yup, 2019 and all that. The time that Spurs almost won the Champions League and how that final in Madrid somehow led them to their current predicament on the brink of the championship. Featuring Pochettino, Lucas Moura, a man from South Korea and several men whose careers went south. It is the story of Tottenham 2018-19 and thereafter on this Totally Extra.

2:23Friday the 1st of May it's a brand new Totally Extra on board today we've got Duncan Alexander hey Duncan hello James hey are you well? yeah I'm alright nice better than Spurs well here's top Spurs fan Dan Kilpatrick is that my is that my sort of moniker now self-bill yourself Daniel how would you go? yeah Yeah, I think the top Spurs fans are perfect, to be honest. Okay. Let's face it, that's why I'm here. All right. And all-seeing, all-knowing, Daniel's story is here from his lofty perch above it all, a.k.a. somewhere in Leicestershire. Still Nottinghamshire. Nottinghamshire. We'll not have this Nottinghamshire erasure.

3:07Okay. I mean, geographical location is so relevant to you, Daniel. Seeing as you kind of permeate all football. Anyway, future listener, hello to you. I have to say we're recording this at a time when Spurs are still a Premier League side seven years on from that final in Madrid it's extraordinary that it is just seven years but looking back on some of the matches some of the people involved some of the commentators even Jermaine Gina's popping up all over the highlights it feels like another age well well as a Spurs fan that's lived through the last seven years and watched the vast majority of the Spurs games live and at the stadium it almost feels longer I'm almost amazed it's only that that recently because it's been a long seven years in Spurs land and a pretty grim seven years all right you crammed a lot of declining into such a short period of time and it's maybe forgotten for a lot of people what an incredible run that was that you witnessed back then Dan and indeed Daniel because you were present at a number of the key matches that we're going to be talking about what a side that was what an Icarus-esque ascent they had to the very pinnacle the brink perhaps of the pinnacle of the Champions League what a manager Pochettino was and I guess the other issue about this and perhaps one of the key reasons that we're doing this is a totally extra to what extent all of that led to all of the current stuff but that's something we're going to get into, but not before we've had a trawl through the Almanac and Duncan, you've offered us a quiz question.

4:47Yes, we all remember Spurs got through to the Champions League final on away goals in 2019, the sadly missed draw deciding mechanism. There's been six occasions of a team getting through to the Champions League final on away goals, but only one team has done it twice. Who are they? looking forward to the answer to that at the end of today's show next up this week in football history this is the totally football show with james richardson part of the athletic fc podcast network what's this week in football brought us through the years quite a bit actually 27th of April 2006.

5:59In the words of legendary BBC Tees commentator Ali Brownlee, this was Massimo Macaroni completing one of the great European comebacks, scoring in stoppage time, as Middlesbrough came from 3-0 down to beat Stau Bucharest and reach the UEFA Cup final, in a performance voted by Borough fans as the club's greatest ever. 27th of April 2014, meanwhile, was a mistake to the heart of Brendan Rodgers.

6:38Stephen Gerrard with the slip against Chelsea at 0-0 in first half stoppage time in the biggest game of Liverpool's season and two weeks after cameras had caught him telling his teammates this does not f***ing slip now this does not f***ing slip title chasing Liverpool captain Stephen Gerrard did just that miscontrolling, falling over and letting Demba Bar through to score Chelsea's opener. Also this week in the history of the football, 1st of May, Al Faramsey was sacked as England manager and Roy Hodgham was appointed as England manager. Firstly, congratulations, Roy. What are your thoughts on getting the England manager's job?

7:16Thank you very much. Obviously, I'm delighted. It's a marvellous honour, something I'm really looking forward to and let's hope we can get everybody behind us and make certain that we work as a team and hope the team to get the results everyone in England expects and wants. Not the same 1st of May. There were 38 years between those two events. And one more 2nd of May, 2016, Leicester were confirmed as Premier League champions. Yes, it did happen. Go back and listen to our very special Leicester, Totally Extra, to find out how. But not before you've stayed with us to enjoy this show, telling the story of what the Spurs side that had run that Leicester team pretty close for that infamous title got up to next.

8:00I think that sense of occasion might make things a little bit tougher for Tottenham in this very difficult group, which also includes Barcelona and PSV Meindhoven. Ahead of Sissoko, a little dummy by Suarez. Messi can finish it at Wembley and does. Lionel Messi and it's Tottenham 2, Barcelona 4.

8:27Here's Dele Alli, here's Lucas Moura. Oh, they did it! I cannot believe it! Lucas Moura with the last kick of the game! He's in the Rinsper, scored! No, no, no, it's happened! It is a nightmare, it is an absolute nightmare. I think they are superheroes to go to the club to the final of the Champions League. I think it's very close to a miracle.

8:59Well there it is It's Liverpool's night Silverware is the currency of success in football And Liverpool have just hit the Champions League jackpot

9:13Memories Dan, memories So we're talking Spurs specifically In the 2018-2019 Champions League run But give us a bit of context here What was the mood around Tottenham in those days? Well, strangely enough, given that Spurs reached the Champions League final that season, it was a really disappointing and kind of bleak summer for Spurs the summer before. That was the summer that Spurs didn't sign or sell any first-team players. They were the first ever Premier League club since the introduction of the transfer window to go a whole summer without trading a first-team player. And I remember being on the pre-season tour that Spurs went on.

9:52US they went somewhere in three locations around the states I think and Pochettino was in the foulest mood for the whole tour and one moment stands out in my mind when there were about four of us traveling from the UK we were in a press conference room waiting for a pre-match briefing with Pochettino and he walked in and one of the other guys said hi Mauricio how are you and he just turned and looked at us and said what do you think and then went and sat at the desk and delivered a really low-energy press conference. And he was miserable. He felt that he wasn't being backed by the club. Obviously, the briefings from the club were a bit different.

10:29The Spurs were desperate from memory to sell Alderweireld, Dembele and Danny Rose, refresh the squad. That was what Pochettino wanted. He saw the writing on the wall for where this team was going. And they did nothing. So they went into that season in a pretty difficult place. I think the stadium was delayed. It did feel like things were kind of starting to unravel for Tottenham. And yet, as we will get into, they somehow produced their greatest run or moment of the modern era, arguably, by getting to Madrid. And I think given what happened the summer before and given kind of the decline of that team, that was even more unexpected and spectacular.

11:10They come off three straight top three finishes under Pochettino. The briefing, as you say, from the club was a little bit different, that under Pochettino, with the stadium being constructed and the drain on the finances consequent to that, the club had been deciding to stick with players. Pochettino himself even made comments to this extent, that it's brave of the club to stick with these players, to not release them, to not try and cash in on them. and to many on the outside Spurs seemed like a really well-run club second most profitable I think at the time in the Premier League yeah I mean I remember that that Pochettino brave comment and that that was what Pochettino was so good at he was a brilliant firefighter you know you could put him in any situation you know Danny Rose delivers an explosive interview to the Sun saying what a disaster Tottenham's transfer business and ownership are and then Pochettino comes into a press conference the next day and completely diffuses it and makes it seem like a non-issue and he was very very good at that and I think that the brave comments and his reaction to that summer was another good example of that I think he was he was putting on a brave face and he was diffusing a situation but I don't think he was happy and I think he he knew better than anybody that that team was was on the decline and he really predicted you know several times what was to come after the Champions League final.

12:34But this is easy to say with hindsight, right? I think that, you know, you'll probably be able to dig out a piece from me at the time. You're saying, oh, you know, credit to Spurs. They've kept all their players. Brilliant. But I think, you know, looking back now, we can see that that team kind of desperately needed a refresh and that, you know, it just gone stale. What was 2019 Daniel's story thinking about Spurs? I mean, it did feel like this kind of weird dichotomy of a club that, as Dan said, needed change, needed refresh, needed an overhaul of the squad. You look at kind of back four and goalkeeper in that final and they're all 28 plus.

13:13It felt like that needed something new. And yet they were, in terms of average league position, they were the most consistent club in the Premier League at that point in terms of, you know, yes, they hadn't won a title And I think there were elements of that bitterness that probably stemmed from 2015-16 and the inability to kind of, that's the one season that supporters would look at and think, what if? Almost more than the Champions League, maybe, because of the identity of the title winners that season and the position that Spurs were in and how that really could have shifted things. but it's absolutely to Pochettino's credit that the conversations about needing the overhaul were three years after that title win right it's it means classic kind of victim of your own success in that if Tottenham had finished sixth in 2017 or 2018 or seventh and he'd have said well look this is what I told you would happen so if you want to keep me we need to do the overhaul maybe it would have happened maybe not with the stadium issues but it felt like he would have been able to drive that more but Daniel Levy et al could just point to the lead table and say well hang on a minute you know you're where we want to be so carry on just doing that carry on re-bottling lightning 2015-2016 had been the rivals for Leicester the following season their highest ever Premier League finish of second and spurs only the second team in Premier League history to have the best attacking record and the best defensive record and still not win the league yeah and the other teams to do that were Manchester United in 97-98, who obviously followed that up with the treble.

14:51So, I mean, this whole period just, as a non-Spurs fan watching them, it just felt like they deserved something, but there was always something conspiring against them. Even, as you say, the building of the stadium, which they had to do, but that was always going to be disruptive. But, I mean, I guess it's funny when you watch the group stage matches from the Champions League in 18-19 and you see Spurs playing at Wembley and it's like obviously Arsenal played at Wembley in the 90s in the Champions League and really struggled. I think most people have kind of deleted that from their memory. It feels just odd seeing Tottenham play Champions League games at Wembley.

15:30Or indeed Champions League games in some ways. Well, they certainly played Champions League games in that campaign, 2018-2019. How many times they looked down and out, how many times Pochettino's side rescued things in the most unlikely of fashions. Let's begin then with the draw, because Dan, for the second straight season, Spurs were in the Champions League group of death. Yeah, it was a really tough group. And I think the remarkable thing about the Champions League run was that it wasn't just Amsterdam where Spurs kind of pulled a rabbit out of the hat. They did it in the group stage a couple of times as well.

16:09And I think everyone remembers Amsterdam. Now, I certainly do. You know, when I think of that Champions League run, it's all about Lucas Moura and the comeback there. But they got through by the skin of their teeth. Lucas Moura scoring late in the Camp Nou, if I'm not mistaken, to kind of get them through. So it was really, really tough from the start. And there wasn't really an easy game in that run. You know, it wasn't as if they got the luck of the draw and flew their way to the final. I think they really had to earn it. Yeah, back-to-back defeats to begin the group campaign. That was against Inter at San Siro and then Barcelona at Wembley.

16:49Then they drew 2-2 with PSV, which meant they had one point after three games. They went into the final game, Daniel, needing to get something at Camp Nou. And you were there. Yeah, I've got this abiding memory of before the Camp Nou's redevelopment and reconstruction. I've got this abiding memory of sitting in the press box, which are behind glass at the Camp Nou, and looking up an almost neck ache up angle to the kind of group of Tottenham fans right in the top of that stadium, when Moura scores and them just thrashing and going mad. And you're behind kind of really quite high and quite ominous looking metal fences at Camp Nou then.

17:28And it just looked like kind of one mass of people just up and down.

17:53I mean, it was the great irony of this campaign, right, is that it was cup final football all the way until the final, which is the one game that Spurs didn't really turn up in, which is to their eternal chagrin and it will be their great regret. But they were so on the edge. So it was 89th minute winner versus PSV and 78th minute equaliser. It was 80th minute winner against Inter. It was 85th minute equaliser against Barcelona. And then we haven't even talked about the Manchester City game, which the away leg of that is probably until PSG buy-in the other night is probably the greatest Champions League game I've watched in which various things seemed to conspire for Spurs.

18:32So yeah, it was just a remarkable campaign. And it was cut final football. It was because they were on the edge all the way. It felt like this was kind of Pochettino distilled. This was him able to kind of get everything of himself into that team because the situation demanded it. Barcelona had taken the lead in that final group stage game through Dembele, who back then was their bright young prospect. What a goal it was as well. him robbing, I think it's Carl Walker-Peters, is it? Do you recall? I think so, yeah. And then setting off on a fantastic run before finishing. And then Lucas Moura, who was the man of this cup run for Spurs, with the crucial equaliser.

19:16That got them through at Inter's expense to the last 16, which somehow was a breeze. 4-0 on aggregate against Borussia Dortmund. Crikey. Just on the group stage, I mean, Spurs, you know, Some people missed the group stage in the in this league stage era some don't but I mean they got through with a negative goal difference And just eight points, which is which is pretty unlikely. They also drew twice Obviously the Barcelona draw being crucial they only drew twice in the entire Premier League season, which I think is more of a summary of what Tottenham were at this stage where they they could win games and they could lose games But it was usually one of the other because it was they really you know turned up or didn't so So, yeah, it was, I mean, Dan will remember better than me, but it felt like you never really knew which version you were going to get each week.

20:05Yeah, that's it. And I suppose still finished in the top four that season, which felt like a surprise. And I think it was a less competitive Premier League landscape whereby they did kind of just stutter over the line and they were able to do that based on having really players like Son and Kane. but they saved their best for Europe that year, certainly the knockouts in Europe. And the Borussia Dortmund game really sticks in my mind because I think going into that game as a Spurs fan, you were sort of remembering the Cellini quote, the history of Tottenham, and you're remembering how Tottenham had looked like a kind of naive side in previous Champions League campaigns and they'd shown their lack of experience at that level.

20:50And Dortmund, on paper, I don't think were necessarily better than Spurs, but they felt like one of these real pedigreed European sides who Spurs were going to struggle with just based on the fact that they didn't have the Nauks at that level. And they went and dispatched them and kind of exerted their Premier League authority over this Bundesliga side who couldn't really cope. And I think Harry Kane scored in Germany, a really good goal. And then the second leg, I remember, is the kind of Jan Vertonghen game. Pochettino had to play him out of position at left back because Spurs were really short players and he scored one and got a brilliant assist where he just rampaged down the left and kind of whipped it in I think Son volleyed it in It was just another example of Pochettino being kind of Pochettino's alchemy is being able to get the best out of player out of position and you know make something work when it probably shouldn't have That 3-0 win over Dortmund was Spurs final European night at Wembley for the quarterfinals against as Daniel mentioned Manchester City they were at their brand new stadium.

22:08Daniel were you there for the first leg? No I was the away leg. Ah the key one. I think I was there. What do you think you remember Dan? Well it's all a bit of a blur but the stadium now almost has kind of negative connotation for Spurs fans because it's been such a disaster for them but this was possibly the second ever game there in the first ever week and they played Palace I think about five or six days before in the opening game and it was amazing and they'd won that 1-0 and then City came for this monumental game and I think the stadium still felt kind of very new and fresh and just kind of overwhelming and people who go there for the first time still walk out onto the terraces and kind of have a moment where they look up and go wow you know whenever Spurs get a new manager which is obviously every kind of few weeks they'll kind of do a video where they parade him around the pitch and and he looks kind of awestruck and so I think that was by my actually abiding memory of still being kind of overwhelmed by how amazing the stadium was and how good the press food was obviously as well I think at the time City almost felt like a kind of insurmountable prospect they were just this kind of super team and you know Spurs obviously had Kane they didn't in the second leg but they had Kane and they had some but actually they they had a lot of elements of their team that just weren't functioning the way they had before.

23:40You know, Victor Wanyama had had this knee injury a couple of years before and just hadn't been the same since. And he would leave Spurs not long after this Champions League run. Danny Rose, very similar, had had a knee injury and hadn't really been right since. Kieran Trippier wasn't the Kieran Trippier of post-Atletico Madrid or indeed at Atletico Madrid. So Spurs felt like a fallible team. And I think to beat City 1-0, you know, felt like a really, again, a kind of really mature, slightly unexpected show of kind of control and authority at that level. City were the side who had won the Premier League with 100 points the season before.

24:15They had also faced a German side in their last 16 tie, a Schalke, who they had seen off 10-2 on aggregate. a city side with Sergio Aguero still with good Raheem Sterling with Kevin De Bruyne with a young Bernardo Silva as you say seeming like a bit of an insurmountable foe Spurs had the win in the first leg but they now had to go to the Etihad and so Daniel did you yeah I said at the top of the show I think probably the greatest at that time the greatest Champions League game I'd ever seen certainly the best one I'd ever seen live and I was right at the top of one of the stands in the Etihad in the overflow section so you sort of sat with laptop on knee in the back row of the stadium with City fans all around you and that first 20 odd minutes in which there was just it was like a highlights package of a whole two-legged tie over 20 minutes it was you know goals goals goals huge chances end to end it just felt relentless but it felt relentless in a way that Spurs were sort of able to cope with this there was this idea that City were going to come out really fast and just run all over Spurs.

25:20It's exactly what they tried to do. But Pochettino seemed to have psychologically at least prepared the team for it. As I said, there's no choice. We can't choose how we play. We just have to match how they play. And it made for a phenomenal match. It's also, I think, one of the defining matches of our age because the ultimate winner, which is Fernando Llorente's goal, hits him on the arm, is not ruled out because of the rule at the time. But then the rule changes that summer to say that if the ball hits your arm, even if it's accidental, it's not a goal. So that would have been ruled out. In the December before this tie, UEFA confirmed that VAR will be used for the knockout stages of the Champions League.

26:00And it's a VAR intervention that stops City's late, late winner. And it's the first time I can remember with VAR because everybody was celebrating around me and then had the air sort of taken out of them. It was the first time I kind of learned, yeah, maybe celebrating goals comes with a caveat. at and there was just this yeah extraordinary atmosphere of even after the full-time whistle of having to sort of stand for five minutes watching the pitch to process what you'd seen because it was just a it was City being knocked out by Spurs and it was also you couldn't quite believe in the result because you'd just seen 50 ,000 people going absolutely mad celebrating what was clearly the winner to send City through and then taken away because of the what was then a new system of intervention it feels almost incongruous that the away goals rule and var existed in the same game like you know it feels like very different types of football and as as daniel says it was so new as well it wasn't obviously in the premier league to the following season and i think at this stage people were kind of no one had the sort of visceral hatred of it yet so it was like oh oh okay well maybe yeah maybe sterling was offside but yeah let's have a look let's check this out.

27:15But whereas now, obviously, I don't think we'd have that emotion. And I think as Daniel says, there was a sense then that that added to the drama. Whereas I don't think anyone would make that argument for VAR now. Probably not, Dan. The drama had begun early. Sterling, what a goal to put City ahead. Dele Alli then setting up Sun almost immediately for a magnificent equaliser. But two minutes later, Son has made it 2-1 to Spurs. That's swiftly answered by Bernardo Silva. And then after 22 minutes, Kevin De Bruyne sets up Sterling again. And City are already 3-2 up. We've had five goals in 22 minutes.

27:57Breathless stuff. This fella certainly moves his feet quick enough. And then De Bruyne with the ball in. And they've got another one. It's racking Sterling again. Oh, my word, what a game we have here. There are so many Spurs managers that have beaten Guardiola. It's actually remarkable. I think it's Pochettino, Mourinho, Nuno, Conte, Christian Cellini, if you count that game when Conte was unwell and Cellini took charge of it, Thomas Frank, and Posta Coglu, of course. And I think Ryan Mason is the only Spurs manager who has played a game against City across the League Cup final and not beaten them.

28:37well Pep's been there Deserby might not get the chance next season of course particularly Pep leaves so all these games tended to follow a similar pattern broadly speaking which was that Spurs would kind of contain and counter and they would be devastating on the counter attack and that's because I think they had the two best counter attacking players in the Premier League over the last however many years Kane and Son who were just phenomenal hurting teams who left space and this game wasn't quite like that but I think Son's equaliser or Son's was did Son score two goals quickly um so Son's kind of two goals were sort of good examples of that playing out you know City City's vulnerability then I think was that you know they would have all this possession and they would kind of squeeze you into your own box but they did leave you space to run into and and Spurs had the players to exploit that and Son I think even more so than Kane just has a history of hurting City because he was for a time I think the most kind of devastating player in transition at getting the ball and scoring from an improbable angle and that's what he did twice in that game.

29:47Laporte shows too much of that to Moura. Now Tottenham have got a two-on-two here. Eriksen, some with another chance and some with another goal! What a start for Tottenham, Hotspur in Manchester. Well, they fell behind and they scored twice themselves now inside the opening 10 minutes. And Heung-min Son has both of them. And that was a special finish by the South Korean. Watching from afar, I was on holiday for that game. You know, you fear City are going to run all over you. But Spurs had that weapon in their back pocket on the break and used it so well. City had weapons as well. Hugo Lloris called in to make a huge save on Kevin de Bruyne with the scoreline 3-2.

30:33They do, City though, make it 4-2 about an hour in when de Bruyne finds Aguero. And they're set to go through to the semi-final. However, Fernando Llorente in off his arm, Daniel. Yeah, this is another one of those quite modern things we get now, where I remember after the game, it was sort of zoomed in so that you could see the pixel to try and work out. And I remember there were people saying, well, it must have hit his arm because you can see the muscle tensing in his forearm, that sort of stuff. And I think it did hit his arm. Really? Yeah, I think so. I think it probably did. The issue is that it was non-conclusive and the goal was given.

31:15And as we well know and have learned on loop ever since, VAR only interferes when there's a clear and obvious error. So there was no intervention from VAR. The goal was given. And that did seem to kind of suck the life out of City. But that game had so much and it had no real controversy until that point. I suppose Aguero missing a penalty in the first leg was instructive, but not really controversial. This was like the first bit where like, OK, finally, the referee is going to get surrounded by both sets of players. That's what we've been waiting for. And it caused a little lull, I remember, in City, whereby they had a sort of seven to eight minute period where they, you know, they struggled to get the momentum back because they thought they were going through.

32:01They then had, obviously, as we've said, this last hurrah throw of the dice when Raheem Sterling scores. And it should have been, well, he thought it was a hat trick. And that would have been probably the peak of Raheem Sterling's career, I think. You know, he's won lots of trophies and he's performed brilliantly for England at major tournaments. But a hat-trick in a Champions League quarterfinal second leg to drag City on when Aguero, who was the kind of talismanic figure at that point, had missed a penalty in the first leg, would have probably been his peak, I think. And yeah, it is ruled out.

32:36We should say it's ruled out not because Sterling's offside, but because Aguero's offside in the build-up. So it wasn't Sterling's mistake. It was a Bernardo Silva touch to Aguero that causes the issue. Off a stray Christian Eriksen pass, wasn't it? Yeah, it was, yeah. Yeah, the Bernardo Silva, because he deliberately touched that pass, then he became interfering in play, rules fans. So, yeah, it was good stuff. 4-3 and finish to City, but thanks to something called the away goals rule, it's Spurs who go through and there's that iconic moment at the full-time whistle of Mauricio Pochettino screaming into the face of his assistants at getting out of jail.

33:20Because Ajax were up next. I say getting out of jail. Ajax up next looked like quite an insurmountable challenge themselves, a side who had knocked out Real Madrid from the last 16 with a 4-1 win at the Bernabeu and then Juventus in the quarterfinals. We'll talk about the clashes with the Dutch side next.

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35:13This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hay, James Pearce, Oli Kay and the very best football writers around. Alright, among the many things that were very different just seven years ago were Ajax. been through some travails themselves in recent seasons, but back then they were managed by a hot young Dutch manager called Erik ten Haag, and they were very much the revelations of that year's Champions League. Mention what they did with Real Madrid in the last 16. Their visit to the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium no doubt saw them impressed at the beer facilities et al, but also 1-0 winners thanks to Donny van der Beek.

35:59Quite an interesting line-up they had in those days, eh? Yeah, I mean, that Ajax team, we've been talking about throwbacks quite a lot here, but they really did. They felt like a kind of run-it-again version of the 1995 side under Louis van Gaal. So under this kind of up-and-coming Dutch manager that seemed to surprise the rest of Europe with things he'd found, you know, young players he'd found in the back of the cupboard that no one was as aware of. and who immediately propelled themselves to big money moves. The difference being, I guess, that A, that 1995 side won the Champions League, they didn't suffer that comeback, and B, that the players that then left that 1995 side were pretty universally successful.

36:45Most of them either ended up at some point at Milan or Barcelona and were fantastic, almost to a man. Probably not the same with this one, although there are component parts that would still be happy with their work since. But I just remember that it was like watching a football team in the 90s or watching a major tournament in the 90s where you weren't quite sure. You didn't know everything about every player. I think it's probably the last time that happened to me in elite level sport because now you do know these players. I mean, maybe to an extent you had that. There were players in the Napoli team a few years ago where you think, I don't really know a huge amount of this.

37:27about this player but with that i actually was the way they play football it was the energy it was a kind of uh nothing to lose mentality that they played with tactically that was really really exciting and i thought you know i remember that first leg and being blown away by donny van de beek's movement and poise on the ball and you know you talk about struggle since it's yeah it's it's if you'd have said take one player of that team and they will they'll go on to big things it would have been him for me and the pretty much the opposite has happened. Where is he now, Donny van der Beek? Yeah, he's now at City affiliate Girona in Naliga and hopefully having a perfectly nice time playing football because he clearly struggled mentally in the Premier League, coping with the Premier League life as well as physically and professionally.

38:17If you'd have said to me he was still in United's reserves I would have believed that. It felt like he was there forever kind of perennially linked with moves and hoping for second chances under a new manager. I felt very sorry for him for that time. It was van der Beek who'd given Ajax the lead in North London, giving Spurs the archetypal tall order for their return leg, even more so when Ajax then went 2-0 up in Amsterdam. De Ligt with the opening goal and then an incredible hit from Ziyech, which put Spurs 3-0 down on aggregate, needing three goals in 45 minutes to go through. And Dan, of course, you were there in Amsterdam.

39:04Yeah. Amsterdam is a, well, certainly the second half is a real blur. Definitely don't dig out my on-the-whistle report for the Evening Standard. In fact, I think I was doing player ratings on the whistle, so don't dig that out. It will be utterly nonsensical. What did Lucas Moura get? Seven? Yeah, no idea. My kind of abiding memory actually is slightly strange. Obviously the scenes after the final whistle were incredible, but during the game, beer was raining down on us after the Spurs goals from disgruntled Ajax fans. And I believe I was sitting next to or near Jason Burt from the Telegraph and a sort of full pint of lager landed directly on his keyboard.

39:50and his computer wasn't particularly functional after that. Oddly, my main abiding memory of the game during the match was Jason's distress at not being able to type anything.

40:10Strangely, that was probably the one game, to be honest, certainly one of the games where I struggled to be in a kind of impartial reporter doing my job and the kind of fan in me was really taking over um i think when spurs got it to tutu and agriga i just sort of didn't want to believe in a way that they that they could um i think sort of for professional and personal reasons it just felt easier if they had had a kind of heroic near miss and then suddenly more pops up and the the scenes I think at full time were incredible and I think the sort of really the defining scenes of the Pochettino era which is widely recognised by all Spurs fans as the best period in their modern history really Here's Dele Alli, here's Lucas Moura Oh they did it!

41:04I cannot believe it! Lucas Moura with the last kick of the game The Ajax players collapsed to the ground Tottenham Hotspur are heading to the Champions League final with a goal that we just couldn't believe Jermaine Genis is speechless absolutely speechless there were so many little moments, Kane who was injured and Wanyama who'd gone off at half time, running onto the pitch, Kane looking absolutely fine, Wanyama barely able to walk, Pochettino hugging his staff and being mobbed and then going over to the fans, Pochettino in tears. The full-time whistle! It's glory, glory, Tottenham Hopspur! In the most amazing Champions League semi-final that most of us have ever seen!

42:01I even heard his ankles looking alright all of a sudden. History made in Amsterdam by Mauricio Pochettino and his players. it's the greatest night in Europe for 35 years since the days of Huddle and RDLESS and maybe the best of all time it's what Champions League dreams are made of it's a night these players and supporters will never forget Tom and Hotspur have come to the Netherlands and reached the promised land some of the scenes away from the pitch as well in the commentary box, Glenn Hoddle saying he was so glad to be around to see it the reaction from even guys like kind of Rio Ferdinand I think in the BT studio who doesn't have any affiliation to Spurs you know were kind of really spectacular and like as for a Spurs fan quite moving to see all that.

42:52Also the context of the night before where Liverpool come from behind to beat Barcelona so it had that there was this sort of an air of like a magical week of football. I remember, I don't have many regrets in my career, but I remember positioning the idea of me going to Anfield on the Tuesday, which I did, and then flying out first thing on Wednesday morning to Amsterdam and doing that one as well. I mean, that would have been the ultimate double header. I think they were separate entities because I think Tottenham at that point were just living in this kind of roll the dice football. Let's see what happens.

43:26No one can take any of this away from us. No one expects anything of us. this is you know our manager has made it perfectly clear in public passive aggressively if not directly to us that this is probably the last hurrah for a team anyway so why don't we just try and squeeze everything out of that you know it's like the last two days of summer holidays right let's just cram everything in let's go to the beach twice and have 10 ice creams and that I think Liverpool were in a very different position to that with Klopp they were very much starting something whereas Tottenham felt like they were ending something but it had exactly the same vibe to it yeah and I think the Liverpool game did feed into the Spurs result but I think I'm right in saying that Pochettino has since said or someone has said Pochettino said at half time to the players look what Liverpool did last night you know anything's possible so I think you know there's always a lot of there was a lot of kind of mystique about what had happened in the Spurs dressing room at half time for the kind of obvious reasons and and the sort of simple answer is that when Yammer as I already mentioned went off with this knee complaint at half time which was related to an historic injury he had had and Urenti came on and Spurs just started bullying Ajax and behaving like a physically imposing and superior Premier League side I think that is one explanation but there have been various kind of tales from the dressing room and one is that Kane spoke another Pochettino actually countered that story after it appeared in the media and said actually no it was Lloris who spoke because I think he wanted to give some credit to the guy who was actually club captain, not the guy who felt like the club captain who was injured.

45:04Well, fired up by a cocktail of inspirational words at half-time, Spurs came out and within 10 minutes of the second half, a great run from Dele Alli set up Lucas Moura for the first of his three goals. Four minutes later, Moura had added a second. There's been a succession of chances. He's essentially dribbling away from goal at this point before turning round and finding the net. Beating Onana, who at the time was regarded as a hot young European prospect. Things are happening, said Jermaine Genas. 2-2 on the night, 3-2 still to Ajax on aggregate. But the clock runs down, 90 minutes passes, the time added on passes, still Ajax 3-2 up.

45:50And then in the last second of the last minute, of time added on, it happens.

46:08Once again, Dele Alli setting up Lucas Moura. Pandemonium for the Dutch commentators. Pandemonium for the Spurs fans in the away end, Dan. Probably for you as well as the beer rained down. pandemonium in the BT Sport production gallery they cut to referee Peter Walton randomly who was also celebrating and that must have been touching for Spurs fans too he looked really happy which I'm pleased about kind of humanised him quite nicely that moment I thought so he enjoys the game like seeing the Demon Headmaster out in town on a Saturday what kind of final would Ajax Liverpool have been by the way I think Liverpool would have won that final.

46:53I think their front three was just, you know, Dan talked about Spurs bullying, able to bully Ajax when they realised that was an option. I think Liverpool would have done it with movement alone. If Ajax had scored first, maybe, and Liverpool might have lost a bit of bottle, but I don't think so. I think Liverpool were the best team left in that competition at the time. I was going to say on that semi-final, Normally, I think those situations, the last minute winner like that in the miracle scenario would have been better at home because you get, you know, obviously you get a lot more noise and a lot more supporters there to see it.

47:29It actually felt like one of those that was better away from home because I remember even on watching on TV that the whole stadium just went silent. And every Ajax player, there was those photos of like eight Ajax players just lying on the floor, completely broken. and that's better in an away stadium, particularly the way that the air just went out other than the beer. Everything went still and silent in that stadium. It was Lucas Murray's greatest night. Would that be fair, Dan, and a Spurs shirt afterwards. There were more touching scenes when he was played by Brazilian TV. Their commentary on his third goal and he wells up.

48:08He breaks down in tears and once he manages to speak again, And he says that this has just been his dream to play in the final, to make his family happy, to make his friends from back in the day in the neighbourhood happy. And there they were through to the final with Liverpool. And having made it to the final, touched by the kind of things that only really happen when your name is clearly on the cup. Was that your feeling as you as you headed to Madrid, Dan? there was definitely a sense that it was kind of written for Spurs because as we've discussed they kept somehow finding a way to win you know from the group stage onwards um the City game and the Arches game were you know two at that point the most extraordinary kind of Champions League knockout ties ever so it there was definitely that sense and I think people were definitely talking about that and I think the fact that by that point given the league performances it was kind of clear that this great Pochettino side was was sort of breaking up you know there were various different players who were either clearly not the same as they were or players who had already left like like Kyle Walker who was playing for Man City at the time and others who you know were obviously going to leave so I think that fed into the sense that this was a kind of last push for the Pochettino team.

49:30And Pochettino said that those three weeks that Spurs had to prepare for the final, which, by the way, I think was far too long, was a big kind of element in that being such a poor game. It was just too long a build-up and everyone was flat. But he said those three weeks in his build-up for the final were his happiest time at Spurs. And he even noticed the kind of change in Daniel Levy, He's famously quite a cold character, was coming down to training and chatting to the players. And everyone was just in a great mood. And Pochettino arranged his kind of trust exercises, the type of things he had done at Southampton when he first joined, to bring the players together, like getting them to walk over hot coals and getting them to sort of put an arrow shaft against their neck and push to sort of prove that the arrow would break before they pierced their throats and stuff like that.

50:26So, you know, he was really kind of living it up, I think, and enjoying himself and spending that time sort of happily on the training pitch with his players. And, yeah, you know, there was this amazing mood around the club. And, you know, we'll get into it. But the sad thing was that was kind of burst, you know, literally seconds into the game right we'll get into that very shortly just a quick question from the HR department you're saying that he took arrows and pressed them against players necks yes on the basis that the arrow shaft would break before the skin did you you pressed them against your own neck I believe right but still doing a wooden shaft with a pointy bit against your flesh Yes, I don't think it had an actual kind of metal or flint arrowhead.

51:18I think it was probably a sort of wooden or plasticky arrow. But there was a kind of guy, a Spanish guru, who Pochettino really believed in and got into the training ground to run these exercises. and he had done them when he first got to Southampton, I think in one of his first weeks, to sort of win over the players, got them to walk over hot coals and do these exercises with the arrows and he hadn't, I think, to that point done it with Spurs. But he used those three weeks before the Champions League final to do those exercises and kind of bring the squad together. Possibly more effective than Gareth Ainsworth's use of the hacker at QPR, but maybe not.

52:06Maybe not. On to the final then, which was one of the dullest in Champions League history, and the thereafter next.

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54:33you're listening to the totally football show with james richardson now we do four times a week keep up to date with us on insta and enjoy us in glorious technicolor on youtube at the totally show all right who was at the final then at the metropolitano in madrid dan yes yeah wow didn't take long for the air to go out of this particular bubble yeah yeah I've really kind of not just because Spurs lost but but for sort of other reasons I have you know pretty bleak memories of that final I mean it was so hot in Madrid that day for one and the atmosphere in the city beforehand was brilliant but um it was then a long old trek to get out to the Metropolitano.

55:22There was kind of transport problems, sort of heavy-handed stewarding and policing of fans. A lot of fans had issues. And so I think by the time a lot of supporters from both teams kind of got in the stadium, they were sort of sobering up and slightly disgruntled, but looking forward to the match. The match would give them a pick-me-up. And then the Sissoko handball literally seconds into the game. And I really just think it killed everything you know it killed the atmosphere in the stadium it kind of killed the tie as a contest i think because from that point onwards liverpool who were already this sort of superior team you know didn't really have an incentive to take too many risks and it it yeah i think you just used the word deflated james it just took the it took the air out of out of the the stadium and the tie um you know to to daniel's point earlier about changing the rules i mean i'm pretty sure afterwards UEFA tweaked the rules again so that that wouldn't have been a handball which I can tell you as a Spurs fan wasn't any consolation.

56:29So yeah, my abiding memory of that game really was just the flatness when that decision was made and the sense that kind of suddenly, although we still had 88 plus minutes or so to play, it felt to an extent like the game was already done. Why, given that Spurs had got out of jail so many times in this campaign, were they unable to do so now? Was it that the magic was all used up? Was it, as a lot of people point to, the fact that Lucas Moura wasn't in the line-up, wasn't on the field and that a maybe not fully fit Harry Kane had been restored to the starting line-up? Daniel or Duncan? Well, my memory is that Spurs were very underwhelming in the first half, but they had a good spell of like 20 minutes in the second half when they had sort of 10 or more shots.

57:24I think they ended with more XG than Liverpool, particularly if you take away the penalty. So I think it just didn't fall for them. And to be fair, it had fallen for them pretty well up until that point. But yeah, as Dan said, It wasn't a classic. I mean, to be honest, any final between two teams from the same country is rarely that good, is it? I mean, we think of Milan Juventus at Old Trafford in 2003. United-Chelsea in 08 was OK. But yeah, it always just feels a bit weird when you've got two teams from the same country, I think. From my memory of it as well, Liverpool with a lead, it just felt like their midfield was able to really control the game.

58:07I mean, if you look back now, just at the teams, you can kind of predict that. So it's Fabinho, Henderson and Wijnaldum against, effectively against Winks and Sissoko at that point. Winkoko. Exactly. Because Ericsson, because they needed a goal, Ericsson was trying to stay high. Dele Alli was trying to stay high. Some was obviously high. So it just felt like Spurs, you know, Kane was unfit and didn't play particularly well. But he didn't really get the ball that much because Liverpool were able to just kind of keep the ball through midfield and stop Spurs generating much, if any, momentum at all.

58:41And, you know, alongside that, the fullbacks weren't really able to get that far forward because they had two of the four wingers in wide forwards in Europe against them at that point. I think it's fair to say that Liverpool were probably the least helpful opposition for Spurs to play against in heat when one goal down after, well, the penalty was given after 22 seconds. And interestingly, it's probably one of my favourite stats ever, is that that line-up for Liverpool in the final, which is the classic Jurgen Klopp XI, that's the only time they ever started a game together. Which sounds mad, but it is true.

59:20Incredible. Incredible. It was the side that handed Liverpool their sixth Champions League win, denying Spurs what would have been their first ever. JoeGolf21 says, if Spurs had won the Champions League that season, which players would they have been able to sign? And this brings us on to the aftermath, the impact of that defeat, and to what extent it's contributed to the astonishing decline of a side that, as we record this, is now battling to avoid the championship in the bottom three of the Premier League. And this has come without the context of points deduction or without the motivation of fire sale of players or any of those things.

1:00:00Instead, Spurs, having completed the building of this magnificent stadium, have just declined. Why? To what extent are the roots of it in that final defeat at the Metropolitano? If you ask any Spurs fan, James, for the one point in history where the decline started or the rot set in. They'll all give you a different one. For me, I think the summer before the final that I mentioned at the top when they just didn't make any signings felt like the real point. They missed a huge opportunity to refresh Pochettino's team and they didn't take it. But I think some Spurs fans would tell you that losing that game or indeed winning the Ajax game and reaching the final was a kind of big moment because I think I think that convinced Daniel Levy in the club's hierarchy that Spurs were this massive club and that actually they weren't a kind of fairly dysfunctional big club who had a I think a kind of at that time a genius in charge who kept bailing them out of situations and that's what I think Pochettino was.

1:01:13I think he was an incredible coach and man-manager at the time, and he was really the biggest reason for Spurs' success. But the club convinced themselves, because they'd reached this huge stage and nearly become European champions, they convinced themselves that actually they were a big club and it wasn't all about Pochettino. He wasn't doing well enough the following season and that they should go and get the super manager Mourinho because he'd show the team, he'd teach the team how to win something. So I think this kind of hubris as a result of getting to Madrid was definitely a factor in their decline.

1:01:52But yeah, for me personally, it was the kind of summers before that where Spurs just felt like they were on to such a good thing that they just sat on their hands. And I think Levy himself has admitted that he took his eye off the ball with the stadium build, which was going on. And that's to an extent understandable, but I think doesn't excuse the fact that he really just let a kind of generational team under a generational coach go stale. Christian Eriksen certainly points to the final. He says, It was all the pressure from the few years before had built the balloon bigger and bigger, but when we lost to Liverpool, the air just went out for the club and the players.

1:02:32As you mentioned, the following season, which didn't start in the best fashion, saw Spurs beating 7-2 at home to Bayern Munich in the Champions League, the Serge Gnabry game, after which Daniel Levy decided to upgrade to proven winner Jose Mourinho, which didn't work out well. What has it been, seven managers since? Daniel, do you attribute the decline to flying too high in the Champions League or was that just a blip in the face of the mismanagement of the club? Yeah, so I mean, very broadly, smart elite football clubs never have end of eras, right? The end of one season is always the nucleus of the next season, or the end of one era is the nucleus of the next.

1:03:18And there's a kind of rolling cycle rather than this era ends and a new one starts. because when a nearer ends, A, there's massive uncertainty and B, it means you kind of have to get every decision immediately right thereafter or everything falls apart. And Spurs just, you know, as Dan just said, Spurs completely got that wrong. It did feel like era ending, kind of whether Spurs had won or not. And then the decisions they therefore had made had added scrutiny and they were very poor decisions. You look at the play. They spent 130 million that summer. It was Ndombele, who was a club record fee, who was a complete failure.

1:03:55there was Bergwijn, there was Jack Clark, there's Lo Celso, there's Sessegnon. You go forward a couple of years and it's Doherty, Emerson, Royale, Brian Gale. There just wasn't a success story, basically, bought for a period of about maybe two and a half years. And Spurs couldn't afford that because of the stadium build. They were always going to fall into ignominy. I mean, the surprise is that they've fallen this far, but the surprise to me is that they didn't fall half as far as this quicker. The surprise is that they haven't had a season where they finished 11th or 12th in the league with Kane and Son gone.

1:04:30Because it was a kind of... I remember Guardiola got a lot of stick for saying the Harry Kane team, but it was the Kane and the Son team for quite a long time after that. And Spurs, that was their get-out-of-jail-free card. And as soon as it left, everything was always going to fall apart, I think. I think the other thing is pretty minor, but the fact that, I assume it was Daniel Levy, but someone at Spurs chose to feature the club in All or Nothing, the Amazon Prime series, in that following season as well. So not only was it a very bad season, but you kind of got an insight and, well, Amazon's sheen of an insight into how it was working.

1:05:11And I think there were some moments in that series which showed you that this was a club that wasn't operating in the way that a club of that size probably should be. And lo and behold, here we are. I mean, I guess the coda as well is that last season Spurs sort of gave up in the league, settled for 17th in the hope of finally winning a trophy, a European trophy, and did that. And yet it sort of feels like this season is the payback for both the last decade and specifically last season in a way. it's a great point about Amazon because I think well I know Pochettino was dead against that, he didn't want cameras in the dressing room, he didn't want cameras on the training pitches, he didn't feel like that was a good environment for the players to be in and yet you could sort of sense that Mourinho obviously loved it and he was the star of it and it was more or less the Mourinho show, you know if you watch that series back now Pochettino was in place until November I believe the November international break if I'm not mistaken and yet there's nothing about the first three months of the season you know that is not featured it's pretty much episode one set things up halfway through in comes Mourinho camera in his office and I think it all just feeds into this sense that which is ongoing today and the people that run Spurs cared less about the football side of things and and more about any commercial opportunity more about making money, you know, commercial opportunities, the business side of the club, and they let the football side kind of fall into ruin.

1:06:49And that is, I think, another big reason where Spurs are where they are today. Well, today being with four games to go in this Premier League season and Spurs in the bottom three under, as I say, their seventh manager since the departure of Pochettino, not including the interims. Daniel Levy has in the meantime departed so in a sense that chapter has come to a close but I guess seven years and the relative positions of Tottenham show that things can change so quickly so who knows who knows where you'll be in 2033 Dan as it stands at least you have that magnificent run you'll always have Ajax you'll always have Man City and so will all of us because as Daniel was mentioning, they were just for neutrals, for ex-referees, whoever it was watching they were some of the most special footballing moments you could hope to have Yeah, and as a Spurs fan, I don't speak for all the Spurs fans but I think it's fair to say that nostalgia has never been more important to Spurs as it is right now, a lot of Spurs fans are happily living in the past at the moment and the Pochettino team just felt like the whole period just felt like such a joyful period for Spurs.

1:08:04It felt like there was this kind of thread of unity that ran through the club, even including kind of Levy and the board, who of course went on to be deeply unpopular. It felt like there was unity that kind of ran from the boardrooms, through the team, into the terraces, and everyone was kind of aligned. Again, I think Pochettino was an enormous part of that, of kind of setting the culture and getting everyone on side, above him and around him. and since really he left it's been kind of acrimony, culture wars over managers which is ongoing today and just kind of misery. So yes, I will always treasure that run.

1:08:48I'll always treasure Ajax and kind of happily sort of exist there for the rest of my time unless Spurs improve. Excellent. That's what football's for. many many thanks then Dan Stu Grin writes in says please can we have a pod looking back on the Middlesbrough UEFA Cup final run yeah yes Daniel's nodding at that one we'll line that one up for soon we've done full up so we should do Middlesbrough there you go Stu Green look out for that one in the weeks or months to come before we wrap it up Duncan the answer to the question of which club had made it to two Champions League finals winning the semi-finals on away goals both times or on two separate occasions I'll warm people up with the times that it's happened to a club once, so we've obviously got Spurs in 2019, you've got Atletico Madrid who did it against Bayern in 2016, you have Barcelona famously against Chelsea in 2009, non-controversial scenes, and then back in 2002, Bayer Leverkusen obviously against Manchester United Fergie didn't get to go to Glasgow so that leaves one club who have done it twice and Daniel looks cock-a-hoop.

1:10:04Well, I thought you were going to mention them once but I vaguely remember Milan going through an away goal because it was in the San Siro against Inter and therefore it was like a weird away goal so if you didn't mention them, was it 2007 then did they do it again or 2005? 2005, so they can complain about Liverpool's comeback all they like but they snuck through and away goals against PSV in the semis. So, yeah, so it's AC Man. So, Mila, what was the other one? Was it the 2002-03? 2003 against Inter, as Daniel said, yeah. Again, with the caveat that away goals in their own stadium. But, yeah, 0-0 in their home leg and 1-1 in the away leg.

1:10:48And then in 2005, they won 2-0 at home to PSV. All good. But then lost 3-1 in the second leg. Remarkable. But the way it goes, I miss it. I do miss it. That's what totally extras are for, things that we miss from yesteryear. We'll have another one soon, but many thanks, Duncan, for being with us today, and Dan and Daniel, two producers, Charlie and Jesse. And you, listener, if you do have any requests for a nostalgic reminiscence package, then let us know. But for now, from all of us here, it's a very warm goodbye. you've been listening to the totally football show part of the athletic fc podcast network for other great podcasts just like this one including the athletic fc and our dedicated club podcasts search for the athletic in all the usual places we're also at the totally show on insta and at the totally show on youtube the totally football show is an athletic media company production.

1:11:55The Athletic FC.

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