Totally Gold 96/97: Dortmund win the last ever 'Champions' League

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1:33James Horncastle: The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

1:43Hello, listener. It's totally gold time, revisiting five years ago, a time when no football was on. So we all came together to look back on some of the greatest seasons in history. This week, it's the time when James Horncastle, Duncan Alexander and Raphael Honigstein reflect it on a classic Champions League campaign, the one where Dortmund went all the way.

2:25Summer 1996, a good time to be German. Euro 96 had just seen football come home for a visit where the Germans, after triumphing over England in the semifinals when Gascoigne's leg wasn't quite long enough, then went on to beat the Czech Republic and win a final at Wembley after 30 years of their own hurt. A Bierhoff brace, and as their commentator probably said, they think it's Oliver, it is now. The Teutonic triumph was to continue in the football season that was just getting underway, with German sides winning both the UEFA Cup and the Champions League, and beating Italian teams in the finals of both, of course.

3:03Autumn 1996 then, and as the season began, what else was going on? The Spice Girls were off dominating Europe with their zig-a-zig-ahs. Everywhere, indeed, except Germany, where die Totenhuizen were number one with Seine Kleiner Jägermeister.

3:29Good times. Independence Day was the big smash in the cinema. Audiences flocking to see the aliens blow up the White House. Good times. Dolly, the clone sheep, was born. Charles and Di got divorced. And in the Champions League, we were up to season five, the last one with only the champions in it. Now, the reigning European champions were Juventus, as they had a fresh new line-up we'll be hearing about very shortly and looked like strong favourites. Also in the competition were a famous knock-knock joke answer, Ozer, who represented France, having won their first and only league title in 1996.

4:04James Horncastle, you're big on French football and the causes of French football. What do you recollect of this Ozer side?

4:12James Horncastle: Well, I mean, it's a remarkable story, James. I mean, we spoke about Nantes last week. Oseer came up through the very bottom of the French football pyramid all the way up to the top and ended up winning the league and the Coupe de France four times under Guy Roux, who made Sir Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger's stints at Manchester United and Arsenal look relatively short. The only Champions League manager whose both names are Saucers, which is always a nice little touch.

4:47James Horncastle: Yeah, I wouldn't look out of place as a judge on Masterchef either. How many years was he in charge for, James? He took over in the Cretaceous period and I think more than 40, James. Yeah, 44 years. It's just extraordinary. Imagine having the same manager for 44 years. Well, he kind of earned the right to do whatever he wanted, I suppose, with Jose having taken them from nowhere to the Champions League. And I suppose, unfortunately for them, going into this season, they lost a couple of big players like Laurent Blanc. We went to Barca. But, I mean, again, this was a good year for French football in not only Jose getting to the competition, but PSG reaching the Cup Winners' Cup final as well.

5:35James Horncastle: I mean, we've touched upon it with Jules, but this was a real kind of golden period for that PSG side, at least when it came to getting to finals. Again, just looking back at this season, James, I just found the variety in it refreshing. You know, something, again, that we've lost to some extent in the current format. Yeah, well, within Oze's group, indeed, you had Ajax, a beaten finalist the previous year, Grasshoppers, and also Rangers, who'd finished bottom of their group the previous year and finished bottom of the group again. Champions of Spain were Atletico Madrid, managed, of course, by Radomir Antic.

6:16They had the competition's top scorer that season, Milenko Pantic, the Serbian. The red-haired dude asked, whatever happened to the career of top scorer Milenko Pantic? We never heard of him after. Duncan. He ended up at Le Havre in Normandy for a bit. But yeah, I mean, I had to look through the top scorers for every season of the Champions League. He has to be the most obscure top scorer in Champions League history. Is Le Havre in Normandy? I believe so.

6:47Yeah, that's right. It is a Normandy. You're calling me out on my Norman knowledge? Is it? Unbelievable, Sam. I thought it was a bit further down. He was also named, and I'm sure we'll come back to this in the future of this episode, but he was named by Paul Lambert as his hardest opponent he ever faced in midfield. Is that right? Because they played each other in the group stage, of course. Yeah. Dortmund and the Atletico Madrid.

7:08James Horncastle: I tell you who started that group stage on fire it was Diego Simeone as well who scored braces in the first two games of that group representing the Premier League were Man United who were beginning to get to grips with the competition as Akbar Chowdhury points out this marked the start of the three consecutive years when they faced Juventus in the Champions League and Juve became very much the measuring stick for United I looked back at some of the press clippings from the time, I mean Corriela della Sera, particularly the first game, and the Italian impression of United was withering in terms of like, if this is the Premier League's best, then it's absolutely miles off our football here.

7:58James Horncastle: and maybe Juventus will get a bit more of a match, a bit more of a game against, who else was in that group? Fenerbahce. So, I mean, they beat United 1-0 in both games and were quite comfortable in both of them. I think United, particularly in the first game, only had one shot and none on target. So, look, I mean, it ultimately was a very positive campaign for them reaching the semifinals, but Juventus, as a lot of Italian clubs did at that time, felt head and shoulders above everybody else. It was that era when the Premier League team would face a team from Serie A and everyone would be terrified because the difference in class was insane.

8:44Obviously, that season as well, United lost at home to Fenerbahce. It was the first time they'd ever lost a European home game. It was this proud record, 40 years without ever losing at home. and it kind of just shows, we mentioned this was the last season when it was just the champions in a fairly quick format and it just shows how the Champions League has changed. The idea that even a Barcelona wouldn't lose at home is just nonsensical nowadays. Just wanted to say that United that year, despite their problems maybe to play quite the same level as Juventus, they did benefit from the relaxation of the rules after the Bosman case because they no longer had this issue with resting players like they did the year before, as you recall, with Peter Schmeichel not playing, for example, in one of the key games.

9:27Their run took them all the way to the semi-finals. We'll talk about how they exited soon enough. But a quick word on Milan, who were the Italian champions, Juve in the competition as the Champions League winners. Milan failing to get out of their group in ignominious circumstances.

9:43James Horncastle: Yeah, I mean, this was the worst ever performance by Milan in the Champions League. And if you look at that group, they would have expected to get through it with Porto, Rosenberg and Gothenburg in it. And it's quite funny, actually. I mean, they kept taking the lead in these games and then just throwing it away late. They could have had qualification wrapped up, I think, in the penultimate match day, but they drew against Porto. And then they went into this famous game against Rosenberg at San Siro. where everything that could go wrong did go wrong. You have, who was it? Strand tried to have a shot.

10:30James Horncastle: It ricocheted off two or three players and fell into the path of Bratback, who put Rosenborg in front. Christoph Dugary, who famously Milan decided to sign after going to scout the previous UEFA Cup final. They chose to sign him instead of Zidane. Juventus got Zidane. and Dugary's only kind of contribution of note for Milan was this nothing goal against Rosenborg. And then Sebastiano Rossi makes a huge mistake coming for a ball over the top, which he doesn't get. And Liverpool legend Vegard Hegem manages to just get his head on it, which is all he needed to do to secure what was a kind of famous win.

11:16James Horncastle: I'd probably say I'm reaching back into the annals of Norwegian football in Europe. This must rank as the greatest win against the Milan side that had brought back Arrigo Saki after sacking Oscar Washington Tabarez. This is the famous minester riscaldata. Exactly. The reheated soup. It just doesn't taste as good as fresh soup. And Saki, who was on the rebound after also going out in the group stages of Euro 96 with Italy, was unable to kind of recapture the magic that had made Milan so irresistible in Europe in the late 80s and early 90s. Amazingly, they only finished 11th in Serie A as well. So it wasn't just the Champions League where they had a hugely surprising lack of success, but also domestically.

12:08famously defeated 6-1 at home to Juventus in that season as well. Quick point on Rosenberg. They got through that group with a goal difference of minus four, which was a Champions League record that stood for a long time until 2013-14, which is pretty impressive to do. Who's beaten it? About three or four teams have beaten it, but Galatastra currently have the record. They did it with minus six in 2013-14. Thank you.

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14:30in the Bundesliga, and they were kind of stuffed full of Germans who'd been plying their trade in Serie A. Was that a kind of conscious policy of theirs, to import Germans from Serie A? Not so much. I think it was just more of a reflection of the financial ability that they suddenly had. They had this good run in the Champions League the year before. They were beneficiaries of a lot of money from private television or commercial television in UEFA Cup. The years before, they had actually made the UEFA Cup final in 1993, losing against Juventus. And all that money they thought will reinvest in tried and tested stars.

15:05And a lot of these players like Moeller, like Summer, like Stefan Reuter didn't really enjoy for various reasons playing in Italy that much. So they were happy to come back. And then they even managed to pick up the likes of Julio Cesar and Paolo Sosa from Juventus. So they had a really strong, experienced side, full of big characters. So many full big characters, in fact, that Oppenheim Hitzfeld had a really hard time dealing with them. There was a lot of strife and a lot of problems behind the scenes. And if they hadn't won this, the whole thing might have exploded a little bit earlier. But the quality was undeniable, I think, of this Dortmund team.

15:44Matthias Sammer, who'd just won the Euros with Germany the previous summer, was the only man to play both that final at Wembley and then the Champions League final in Munich and won the Ballon d 'Or after a particularly miserable spell that he'd had at Inter. That's right, James. He did not enjoy playing Inter at all. I think was basically feeling as if he was in a foreign country playing in Italy. And was very happy to come back to Dortmund. And Bizarre, he was not the captain. Michel Zouk was the captain, even though he was in the twilight of his career at the time. which was another, I think, bone of contention or issue why there was a lot of infighting and sort of difficult dressing room dynamics at the time.

16:31Samer went on to manage Dortmund and won the title with them in 2002. What's he doing now? So he's gone back to Dortmund as an advisor to the board of directors, having come back from the cold, the cold being in a similar role as sporting director at Bayern Munich where he was very vocal and one of the people who really took on Dortmund all the time verbally and Klopp. And there was a lot of bad blood, but it's all been forgiven. And now he's back with Dortmund, helping them with some kind of strategic things, but also looking at prospective transfer dealings. He was, for example, watching Erling Haaland play a few games in Austria.

17:15Also famously in that Borussia Dortmund side, and probably the first name that a lot of people in the UK will mention when they think about that final is Paul Lambert, who puts in the cross for the first of the Regler goals. How big a figure was he for Dortmund in central midfield there? He was a big figure, perhaps not the most celebrated of players because they did have the likes of Müller, you know, World Cup winner, Paolo Sosa, who was wonderful on the ball. Summer playing as a sweeper, but often playing in midfield from that position. and Lambert was the guy that would do a lot of the invisible, the less glamorous, the dirty stuff, the water carrier role.

17:50But his endeavour, his commitment, the way he played the game, I think made him a huge favourite at Dortmund, where there's always a big appreciation for work ethic, being very much a working class club, at least in terms of the industrial heritage at Dortmund. So I think he fit in very well with his attitude. but I would say he was slightly overshadowed by more technically gifted players around him. It goes back to what we were saying earlier about just having a British player in the final in 1997 was seen as this kind of huge occasion. It's like, wow, look, there's someone who's actually played in Scotland or England in the Champions League final.

18:28It was extraordinary. Are we going to touch on anything to do with United in the knockout stages? Let's do it now, Duncan, because there were two meetings between Dortmund and Man United and both of them ended in 1-0 wins. for the German side. Treschok, the hero in the first loss, Rickon with the goal at Old Trafford and there's some valiant defending from Dortmund, in particular Jürgen Kohler. Kohler was outstanding. It was the game that made him the bona fide Fussballgot in law in the annals of Dortmund and perhaps German history as well, clearing two balls on the line at Old Trafford. But both goals for Dortmund, bizarrely, deflected by Pallister.

19:11which made him the anti-Fussball got, I guess. Dortmund won all five of their games in the knockouts, which is relatively rare. But from a United point of view, obviously they'd beaten Porto 4-0 in the quarterfinal first leg, including a David May Champions League goal, which is as rare a thing as you can get. And then, yeah, I think United were a little bit unlucky in the semis. They went away to Dortmund. Nicky Butt hit the post. Cantona was good, but he kind of lost the ball, which led to Dortmund's goal. and obviously after the second leg, that was the day, the day after the second leg was when he told Alex Ferguson he wanted to retire as a player at the age of 30.

19:48So it was quite a pivotal kind of tie, I think this. That wasn't the only pivotal thing that happened after that second leg because after Lars Rickon's goal, Sir Alex Ferguson decided he had to start wearing glasses. He had a go at Peter Schmeichel at half-time, convinced that his error had been behind Lars Rickon's scoring with that shot and then he said, I know there was a deflections for Alex Yeo thing, and he said in his autobiography, I decided then and there I needed glasses. You can't be wrong at half-time. Well, if we're talking about things that happened after the second leg at Old Trafford, I was actually in Manchester that night, and I was at a nightclub called the Hacienda, which was just about still going.

20:28It was two months before it closed, and there was a kind of unsigned bands night called Stone Love. And my lasting memory of it is about 11 o 'clock, stood in the queue to get in. loads of Dortmund fans in fluoro yellow scarves turned up and all the bouncers were like, lads, you can come in, but take the scarves off because it's not advisable. And they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, cut to about, I don't know, half 12 and the whole place just kicked off because they hadn't taken off the scarves and there was a bit of bad blood. But I've got really kind of clear memories of that night and that Champions League semi.

21:00I really thought that was going in another direction. When you said about there being a new bands night, I assumed that that was going to be the day that you saw No, I mean, from memory, every band that played there was awful. So maybe it was good, but I don't think so. OK, excellent. Well, that was Man United. In the other semi-final, it was all about a young French player who Juventus had just signed. Milan passed him up at Bordeaux. The player being, of course, Zinedine Zidane. Juventus facing Ajax again, the team who they'd beaten in the Champions League final only the summer before. How good was Zidane in the second leg, James?

21:41Was this the performance of the entire campaign?

21:44James Horncastle: Well, I think it's fair to say that it was a performance Juventus had been waiting to see from Zidane.

21:58James Horncastle: While he'd got better through the winter and the spring, there is always this law at Juventus that, you know, it took Platini six months before we saw the best of him. And this was Zidane's first season, and he was magnificent in this game. You know, it's one of the stories of that, or themes of that year at Juventus was that they had so much attacking talent, even after selling the likes of Gianluca Viali and Fabrizio Ravinelli. They brought in Alan Boxic, the human can opener, as he was apparently known. Just reading some of the clippings, that was a nickname that had eluded me. I always thought Cardboard Boxic was a better one.

22:44James Horncastle: And he actually came up pretty big in some of the knockout games as well. Well, this was the story of, I suppose, the turn of the year at Juventus where Zidane in that game was majestic. And if you go and look at the super cut on YouTube, which just sees him jinking past players and finding space where there was none. You also kind of have to tip your hat at the number of Italians in that Juventus side who I wouldn't say were the glamorous names in it. You're talking Michele Padovano, Sergio Polini, Mark Iuliano, Nicola Amoruso. All of these kind of players who made big contributions that season.

23:28James Horncastle: So it wasn't just about the Hall of Famers, I suppose, that we now look back on as Del Piero, who had scored in the Club World Cup final against River Plate. I think he'd also scored in the two legs where they beat PSG 9-2. in the European Super Cup, beating them 6-1 in Paris, which was pretty damn special. And this one, because ultimately, you think of those World Cup winners from two years later, Zidane and Didier Deschamps. Deschamps had won the European Cup with Marseille, as had Boxic, but in actual fact, one of the real kind of strengths of this side was just these kind of resilient, battle-hardened Italians who'd ended up Juventus having been kind of gifted nothing really throughout their careers and were just so hungry to have made it and have the opportunity to play in games like this.

24:22James Horncastle: I think that was one of the real kind of defining qualities of this Juventus team. Well, through they went to the final after the semifinals with Ajax and on the 28th of May in Munich, they faced off with Borussia Dortmund.

24:45These are two teams that met, what, four years previously in the UEFA Cup final when Juve came up with one of their biggest performances ever in Europe, a 6-1 victory on aggregate. It was over two legs in those days, the UEFA Cup final. Roberto Badger putting in probably his best ever performance for the old lady. Now, we mentioned the fact that Dortmund in the meanwhile had picked up a whole bunch of Juventus players.

25:08James Horncastle: Yeah, and so much so that in the papers in Italy, in lead up to the game, they drew the comparison with the annual friendly that Juventus play in pre-season at Villa Perosa, which is where the Agnelli family is from between Juventus A and Juventus B. and this was very much seen as a rerun of that with the Juve A side being the one that had romped through this competition. It was very much seen as Juventus' game to lose. But lose it they did, Rafa. Del Piero didn't start, Zidane was tightly marked and Dortmund blew the old lady away. I don't know if they did. I think Juventus had a lot of chances, James, and probably had more possession, had more of the game in midfield.

25:57But Dortmund scored from two set pieces, having trained them, having also figured out that Peruzzi, in the words of Opmer Hitzfeld, the Dortmund coach, was very reluctant to come off his line. And Karl-Heinz Dieter scored with two headers. And that, of course, tilted the balance of the game. Then Juventus had to chase. And the second half kind of played out as it often does, I think, when one team chases and then the other team has a chance to deliver the sucker punches. Sucker punches, as it were, and deliver they did. Riedler from Paul Lambert's cross to make it 1-0, then almost immediately a second with the header from the corner.

26:46Riedler had woken up the night before at 3.30, sweating, and telling his roommate, Martin Kreder, He just dreamt about scoring two goals against Juventus the next day. Extraordinary.

26:58James Horncastle: Rafa is right when he says that Juventus had lots of chances. I mean, they felt they should have had a penalty very early on when Vladimir Jougovic is brought down in the area. Never a pen, come on. Well, it's fascinating rereading the reaction in Italy afterwards in that they thought that Italian football had lost its power within UEFA because Mattarese, who was the vice president of UEFA at the time, he was no longer the president of the Italian Football Federation, so he no longer had credibility. There were some bad decisions in the Schalke Inter final in the UEFA Cup. They felt that there were bad decisions in this game where, again, I think Vieri had a goal disallowed for handball and they felt that that should have stood or could have stood.

27:49James Horncastle: They'd seen them given. and there was one of the great, almost forgotten final goals as well when Del Piero came on and backheeled that cross from Alan Voxic.

28:11Yeah, it was magnificent that and it made it 2-1 only for Borussia Dortmund to swiftly re-establish a two-goal margin through Lars Ricken.

28:31Rafa, Josh Turnbull wants to know what happened to Lars Ricken. He was the Mario Goethe of his day. In terms of scoring a goal in the final and perhaps not quite living up to his promise in years after, that may be true. He had a few injuries. Ultimately, he never really became a proper German international. Perhaps also slightly ill-advised with some of the TV ads he did. He did one famously for Nike, I think, in 98, where he was saying, oh, I'm looking at football and I see all these men in pinstripe suits. They don't love the game as much as I do and so on. But it all felt a bit strange. But he's now back at Dortmund being the youth team coach, so the second team coach.

29:14What was remarkable about this goal, of course, was that it happened with his first touch of the game. He'd come on and only 16 seconds later, there's the ball through from Andres Muller and reluctancy's Angelo Peruzzi stands and watches as Ricken basically lobs him from, what, about 20 yards? Unbelievable goal. According to Ricken, it's the sort of shot that one time out of 10 maybe goes in. And again, he, like Hitzfeldt, referenced Peruzzi's position. play and had said that it was already in his mind before he'd come on that Peruzzi was always standing outside of his goal during play which I don't know how that syncs up with Hitzfeld's assumption that he never comes out but anyway if we chalk it up.

30:04James Horncastle: Peruzzi also lobbed by Francesco Totti in that 5-1 derby win that Roma had what a couple of years a couple of years later as well so So, yeah, I think it certainly was a trait of Peruzzi's game, which Ricken did wonderfully to exploit. Killed the game. Yeah, killed the game. And we should also mention Stefan Claus, who'd had a fantastic game in the final, but more so even at Old Trafford in the semi-final. The Dortmund keeper who then went on, of course, to play for Rangers for a long time. So I think that was perhaps the biggest difference between Juve A and Juve B that night. Dortmund actually had a keeper.

30:45Post the final, Borussia Dortmund went on to win the Intercontinental Cup, becoming world champions, beating Brazilian side Cruzeiro 2-0 in Tokyo. That win, though, was supervised by Nevio Scala, the former Parma manager, because Hitzfeldt moved upstairs to the position of sporting director. Scala is just still being mentioned as the worst Dortmund coach in recent history. It all fell completely apart under him. but just one more point to make the symbolic importance of Dortmund not just winning their first ever European Cup but winning it in Munich where Bayern had toiled you know so so fruitlessly for over 20 years at that point Bayern hadn't won the European Cup since 1976 it was their big obsession and here come Dortmund these upstarts and win it in Munich it was it was a huge thing and made it all the more sweeter for Dortmund that night.

31:44Rafa, within, what, eight years of this Champions League victory, Borussia Dortmund were on the verge of bankruptcy. What brought about that sudden precipitous fall? They basically did a Leeds United, James. They made a lot of money from an IPO, but then they spent all that money that they'd made on the stock market on players. And when they missed the Champions League a couple of times, there was nothing to fall back upon, and the whole house came crashing down. I mean, they had unbelievably big contracts for everyone. They were fighting with Bayern for players and sometimes players would go to them rather than to Bayern.

32:20Sebastian Kier was an example. I think Jörg Heinrich as well. And they ultimately couldn't sustain it and very nearly went bust. But that season also finished with another famous Italian-German clash in the UEFA Cup, as the Europa League used to be known. when Inter took on Schalke in a two-legged final, the last two-legged final in this competition, and Roy Hodgson made Javier Zanetti lose his cool.

32:51James Horncastle: Yeah, the only time that we've ever seen that famous Javier Zanetti haircut kind of ruffled and, you know, someone who is a real sort of bastion of Corinthian and kind of good sporting behaviour just absolutely lose his mind with Roy Hodgson. Again, in a final that an Italian team expected to win against Schalke's Eurofighters. Is that right, Raph? Yeah, that was their nickname. It went to penalties. And who was the hero? Jens Lehmann, who was in goal for Schalke that night, saved Zamorano's penalty. Aaron Winterberg is wide. And Schalke were UEFA Cup. As for Javier Zanetti and why he got upset, visibly swearing, I know, at Hodgson as he was being called off the field.

33:48James Horncastle: Why did you sell Roberto Carlos? Why? This is one of the two kind of major charges that are laid at Hodgson's door by Inter fans. One, the sale of Roberto Carlos. and secondly, having taken Javier Zenetti off just before the penalty kicks so that he could send on Nicola Berti, who Hodgson presumably felt was going to be slightly more reliable from the spot. By the way, on the bench for Xhaka that night, won David Wagner. Indeed. And Hoop Stevens pulling off this win again. It wasn't perhaps the most... Hoop, there it is. Yeah, most glamorous of performances. Hoop dreams. But they did enough. Zamorano only scored the winner, or the equaliser of the two ties in the 84th minute.

34:34So Schalke had defended very, very valiantly. Talking earlier about random top scorers in the Champions League

34:43James Horncastle: in the UEFA Cup, you think of the array of attacking talent that there was not only at Inter but in some of the other teams in that competition. I think I'm right in saying that Maurizio Gantz was the top scorer for the Nerazzurri and in that competition as a whole, which on the back of Barcelona beating PSG in the Cup Winners' Cup final with a penalty from Ronaldo, that's when we saw Inter say, you know what, thanks Gantz, but we're going to sign O Phenomenon. Many thanks to James, Duncan, Rafa and producer Charlie. We're going to be back with a current day Totally Football Show on Thursday. Bye for now.

35:23You've been listening to the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. For more great football podcasts like this one, including The Athletic FC, and our six dedicated club podcasts, search for The Athletic on Apple, Spotify, and all the usual places. The Totally Football Show is an Athletic Media Company production.

35:46James Horncastle: The Athletic FC Podcast Network.

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